Harstem invented the "Proxy Siege Tank" and now this crap, i like it. As an imba Protoss player it is only fair to give the opposing side some more good cheeses 😂
why you dont mix in 5 scvs on auto repair at 5 minutes? you have enough scvs in main anyway and they do autorepair on cyclones its the healing you were asking about, if they focus the repairing unit it can determine the outcome of a fight. also i dont understand why you favor extra macro over production after 3rd base?
It's just not that strong, the scvs tend to die and repair has almost no value in the fight. Sure, you get the repair when poking but 5 worker is extremely expensive for 1base.
the scvs dont tend to die because they repair eachother, they are extremly hard to kill because you need to focus fire them because hostile units tend to shoot back units that hit them, and scvs on autorepair dont attack move.
I watched that first game and as you go into the final engagement, I'm just saying to myself. "Oh my God, that is so gross!" That is some beautiful STANKY cheese. Very impressive.
Thinking about what makes a strategy "cheese" and how come it feels like Terran has the most/cheesiest units, but Protoss feels like it has the easiest access to the most powerful cheese, and therefore cheeses more? And then there's Zerg, which has basically nothing. I'm a Zerg main, so of course I have a bias, but I think my reasoning is sound: Cheese is in essence, forcing a situation that leverages a unique strength of a unit/strategy, in an unconventional manner and far quicker than expected. And I think the best cheese is all-in. Protoss can do this most, because all of their units are strong, but also slow and expensive. Terran can do this, because their units are incredibly versatile and they have perfect counters. Zerg cannot do this, because the race's units are inherently weak by design, their strength is purely meta one, through economy and overwhelming numbers. Where the other two races can force these no-win situations early on via the raw strength of their units or perfect setups, Zerg can only force no-win situations by winning the economy game. I think Zerg only really has 1 true cheese strat, and that's 1-base Nydus Swarm Host.
What? 3base speedling allin, 3ravager rush, baneling bust, proxy hatch, etc etc...Zerg has a myriad of early game cheeses to force the pace of the game. I would argue far more than protoss.
@@jayesspee4870 If a strategy requires you go up to 3 bases, it's not a cheese anymore. You're just doing a timing attack. I forgot about 3 Ravager rush, just because it's not that great, but I'll give you that. Baneling busts aren't unconventional, not unless you're doing them suuuuper early as part of a speedling all in, but I wouldn't count them a separate cheese from ling all ins really either. It's literally just, what happens when your banelings get close to the wall off, and one of the only ways you can get it down, since walling off defends against virtually all speedling all ins. Hence you don't see pros doing them. Only 3 Ravager, 1base Nydus Swarm host actually feel like cheeses imo. Lings get hard countered too easily, too quickly, and proxy hatch just isn't good. It's basically just a hatch block, which you defeat with 5 probes and a withering glare. Or if you do the version outside their nat and they never scout, it's just early Roach/Queen/Spine Crawler pressure, which is extremely unconventional, but also gets completely shut down the millisecond 1 single Immortal or Siege Tank hits the field. Maybe part of the cheese definition is that it's easier to perform than it is to defend? Or that it's done off 1 base, with the intention of ending the game. idk But Zerg having more cheese than Protoss????? Are you high? "The big book of protoss cheeses" is literally a meme. Because of Cannon Rushes alone, I feel like you're insane to even suggest that Protoss isn't the cheesiest race. You can Cannon Rush into grandmasters, it's literally a strat viable at the pro level. There's also: - Dark Templar rush (one of the other ultimate cheeses) - Proxy Gateway - Proxy 2 Gate - Proxy Stargate - Proxy Robo - old 4 Gate - Tempest Rush + Shield Battery - Storm Drop -> Archon Drop - Glaive Adept all in - Blink Stalker all in - Mass Oracle - Carrier Rush, maybe not tbh, i've seen it but it only works vs Zerg bc Zerg anti air is weak. and again, just, Cannon Rushes. Cannon Rushes forever. There is nothing cheesier. Some are even economic openers. You can also modify Cannon Rushes to include Proxy Robo, or Proxy Gateway bs. just Protoss not the cheesiest race? bro what are you smoking? No hate or anying, fuck man I'm jealous of both the other races for some of the crazy value you can get from their units. Maybe that's just coming from Zerg though, where our units are by design, not meant to trade efficiently until T3. And every strat against Zerg involves not letting them get there. idk if nothing else maybe we can agree Liberators and Siege Tanks are insanely strong.
@@noah.2B I was able to off race zerg to 4100mmr with proxy hatch in main or 14 hatch bane bust speed ling zvp zvt. zvz was always roach wars pre 6min.
@@gjovi555 is this supposed to mean something? no offense, like, good job and all, but that's not exactly a massively impressive achievement. you've essentially said that you were able to reach X mmr without learning the race. just by using early aggression. like sure you can proxy hatch into masters, but you can 3 rax reaper into GM. you can cannon rush into gm top 500. good luck proxy hatching your way to top 500, it just won't happen. and yes, ZvZ is cancer. i'm sorry you had to learn this the hard way. worst of all mirror matchups. i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
Yeah I disagree theres a lot of fun cheeses with fun drone pulls on pvz, hiding hatches, hiding pools, hiding spires, rushing lurkers, rushing burrowed roaches, mass queen drops, in pvz you can do lots of banes or ling floods with or without ling speed, nydus stuff 2 base hydra. If you think zerg can't cheese you're just wrong, I think dark only cheesed for like 2 years.
Nice games captain! That was some nice cheese! Any chance you'll make more "road to rank 1" videos in the near future? Or have you given up on your quest? ;)
9:25 it's fine, killed couple off probes, 1 zealot, used energy from bat up (which is actually a win off the snipe not killing first hit), and lost 2 hellions and created early pressure; think its a pretty big win, and you got 2ghost, so only 2-6 to go and you won. ahh see, you threw your entire army away with terrible micro not utilizing their energy, not emp batteries, fighting full in battery range with zero micro; so deserved loss, but you where ahead; just dont lose the ghost, they aint there for their auto dmg, they there to snipe off units and to force a bad fight with 1-2 emp, but keep double sniping units whenever snipe is available above 1-2 emps; use medivac as scout if need; you need a medivac anyway to carry the ghost to safety (like archons, they are just thrown away unnessesary while stalkers and marines are microed back and allowed to heal :P
emp is so imba 4:20 you took half the lives of 11 units with one click emp needs way smaller area that it attacks or just emps one single unit like feedback. what if feedback took the health and energy of a medivac but also 10 units around it go to half health i hate ghosts im just going start playing T
17:25 or maybe not start the unit off with free energy to be able to erase half the lives of 5 units for the cost of 1 ghost, useless sentries at that point as well lol
the zergs giving protoss zerglike builts, the protoss giving terran new builts ;P yer ghost is op against everything from protoss and zerg, 4-8 ghost and you can only lose if you forget to pickup your ghost and let them all die to a blind baneling detonation (whenever i see 6+ ghost die like that i shake my head in pain, happens supricingly often with 10 medivacs over them and no anti air ) ^^
Ill answer that ,Yes it is .Toss is outta question since its the weakest , Between terran and zerg , If both are given perfect command ,Terran will always win (Too goddam cost effective ). Before anyone try to point something ,Ive left sc2 gaming for years ,just here for vids ,so is not biased opinion ,its a fact
@@uzairasif4684It’s not. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Harstem already answered all the imba questions about the ewc. He said that people who think a specific race is imba because they won are dumb. Toss is fine in this meta. Terran is fine in this meta. And Zerg is fine in this meta. Also saying you don’t have a biased opinion is so stupid. Just proves you have no idea what bias is. Youre a clown.
hard to grasp why you let him flank you around 20 times (the game at around minute 18 plus) and NOT utilize your tanks to build more pressure and deny his 3rd base.
Hear me out. +1 Blue flame, aggressively trade hellions for workers, fast 3rd, speed banshees, thor tank, +3 tank + viking, macro game split map. Win in efficiency. It's a good strat
14:45 you can emp the nexus to shutdown the potential off superbattery, if they put the battery close by or pylons etc. they are hit as well and force him to a worse fight or lose at minimum hp on them
15:48 few scv's on auto-repair, hold them behind the army, then move the hurt mechanic units back to them, getting auto-repaired and ready to hit melee shield off the opponent etc. maybe?
15:56 ghost like stalkers have a finite number you can effectively use; 4-8 ghost; anything you can't do with 4-8 is an issue on your management and micro and decision making. after that a couple off ravens for anti-armour missile (terrans midgame+ who fight without it should NEVER EVER win, neeever; it shows a complete lack off balance when terran continually can fight at -2attack, that's like refusing to use templars in any and all situations; or refusing to use vipers or mindcontrol; so many scenarios T can win while they just utilize their stuff horrid. i also have a bone to pick with you protoss for NEVER having that +2armour shield on your armies; STOP a moving your sentries into the fight, they are supposed to be spellcasters, like templars; start treating them as such or at Bare minimum right click them on a unit who isn't making them be the first target once melee is gone... it's more forgiven bc you can easier disable the effect due to sentries dying, while AA-missile last forever and cant be countered ^^ .. like ghost..
The instant giggle in the opening means it's cheesy af.
As a Protoss player, this is truly revolting. I am sickened.
Taste of ur own medicine xd
Harstem invented the "Proxy Siege Tank" and now this crap, i like it. As an imba Protoss player it is only fair to give the opposing side some more good cheeses 😂
Protoss isn't imba
Protoss is imba
Instead of sending your rax back, you might use it as a shield or vision for your all-in
I played Ruff and he went in base 4rax with a ghost for the batteries lol
If you could bring the notorious predator or Hercules into multiplayer, how would you change the units make them better?
why you dont mix in 5 scvs on auto repair at 5 minutes? you have enough scvs in main anyway and they do autorepair on cyclones its the healing you were asking about, if they focus the repairing unit it can determine the outcome of a fight. also i dont understand why you favor extra macro over production after 3rd base?
It's just not that strong, the scvs tend to die and repair has almost no value in the fight. Sure, you get the repair when poking but 5 worker is extremely expensive for 1base.
the scvs dont tend to die because they repair eachother, they are extremly hard to kill because you need to focus fire them because hostile units tend to shoot back units that hit them, and scvs on autorepair dont attack move.
I watched that first game and as you go into the final engagement, I'm just saying to myself. "Oh my God, that is so gross!" That is some beautiful STANKY cheese. Very impressive.
Thinking about what makes a strategy "cheese" and how come it feels like Terran has the most/cheesiest units, but Protoss feels like it has the easiest access to the most powerful cheese, and therefore cheeses more? And then there's Zerg, which has basically nothing. I'm a Zerg main, so of course I have a bias, but I think my reasoning is sound:
Cheese is in essence, forcing a situation that leverages a unique strength of a unit/strategy, in an unconventional manner and far quicker than expected. And I think the best cheese is all-in.
Protoss can do this most, because all of their units are strong, but also slow and expensive.
Terran can do this, because their units are incredibly versatile and they have perfect counters.
Zerg cannot do this, because the race's units are inherently weak by design, their strength is purely meta one, through economy and overwhelming numbers.
Where the other two races can force these no-win situations early on via the raw strength of their units or perfect setups, Zerg can only force no-win situations by winning the economy game.
I think Zerg only really has 1 true cheese strat, and that's 1-base Nydus Swarm Host.
What? 3base speedling allin, 3ravager rush, baneling bust, proxy hatch, etc etc...Zerg has a myriad of early game cheeses to force the pace of the game. I would argue far more than protoss.
@@jayesspee4870 If a strategy requires you go up to 3 bases, it's not a cheese anymore. You're just doing a timing attack.
I forgot about 3 Ravager rush, just because it's not that great, but I'll give you that.
Baneling busts aren't unconventional, not unless you're doing them suuuuper early as part of a speedling all in, but I wouldn't count them a separate cheese from ling all ins really either.
It's literally just, what happens when your banelings get close to the wall off, and one of the only ways you can get it down, since walling off defends against virtually all speedling all ins. Hence you don't see pros doing them.
Only 3 Ravager, 1base Nydus Swarm host actually feel like cheeses imo. Lings get hard countered too easily, too quickly, and proxy hatch just isn't good. It's basically just a hatch block, which you defeat with 5 probes and a withering glare.
Or if you do the version outside their nat and they never scout, it's just early Roach/Queen/Spine Crawler pressure, which is extremely unconventional, but also gets completely shut down the millisecond 1 single Immortal or Siege Tank hits the field.
Maybe part of the cheese definition is that it's easier to perform than it is to defend?
Or that it's done off 1 base, with the intention of ending the game. idk
But Zerg having more cheese than Protoss????? Are you high?
"The big book of protoss cheeses" is literally a meme.
Because of Cannon Rushes alone, I feel like you're insane to even suggest that Protoss isn't the cheesiest race.
You can Cannon Rush into grandmasters, it's literally a strat viable at the pro level.
There's also:
- Dark Templar rush (one of the other ultimate cheeses)
- Proxy Gateway
- Proxy 2 Gate
- Proxy Stargate
- Proxy Robo
- old 4 Gate
- Tempest Rush + Shield Battery
- Storm Drop -> Archon Drop
- Glaive Adept all in
- Blink Stalker all in
- Mass Oracle
- Carrier Rush, maybe not tbh, i've seen it but it only works vs Zerg bc Zerg anti air is weak.
and again, just, Cannon Rushes.
Cannon Rushes forever. There is nothing cheesier. Some are even economic openers.
You can also modify Cannon Rushes to include Proxy Robo, or Proxy Gateway bs.
just
Protoss not the cheesiest race? bro what are you smoking?
No hate or anying, fuck man I'm jealous of both the other races for some of the crazy value you can get from their units. Maybe that's just coming from Zerg though, where our units are by design, not meant to trade efficiently until T3.
And every strat against Zerg involves not letting them get there.
idk
if nothing else maybe we can agree Liberators and Siege Tanks are insanely strong.
@@noah.2B I was able to off race zerg to 4100mmr with proxy hatch in main or 14 hatch bane bust speed ling zvp zvt. zvz was always roach wars pre 6min.
@@gjovi555 is this supposed to mean something?
no offense, like, good job and all, but that's not exactly a massively impressive achievement.
you've essentially said that you were able to reach X mmr without learning the race.
just by using early aggression.
like sure you can proxy hatch into masters, but you can 3 rax reaper into GM.
you can cannon rush into gm top 500.
good luck proxy hatching your way to top 500, it just won't happen.
and yes, ZvZ is cancer. i'm sorry you had to learn this the hard way. worst of all mirror matchups. i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
Yeah I disagree theres a lot of fun cheeses with fun drone pulls on pvz, hiding hatches, hiding pools, hiding spires, rushing lurkers, rushing burrowed roaches, mass queen drops, in pvz you can do lots of banes or ling floods with or without ling speed, nydus stuff 2 base hydra. If you think zerg can't cheese you're just wrong, I think dark only cheesed for like 2 years.
Nice games captain! That was some nice cheese!
Any chance you'll make more "road to rank 1" videos in the near future? Or have you given up on your quest? ;)
Thanks Captain - this is going to be fun to play against in the Ladder for the next week *end sarcasm*
Not only a gg, but a wp! Feel like that should be celebrated somehow.
This is the best cheese ever, perfect plan 80% execution is great.
9:25 it's fine, killed couple off probes, 1 zealot, used energy from bat up (which is actually a win off the snipe not killing first hit), and lost 2 hellions and created early pressure; think its a pretty big win, and you got 2ghost, so only 2-6 to go and you won.
ahh see, you threw your entire army away with terrible micro not utilizing their energy, not emp batteries, fighting full in battery range with zero micro; so deserved loss, but you where ahead; just dont lose the ghost, they aint there for their auto dmg, they there to snipe off units and to force a bad fight with 1-2 emp, but keep double sniping units whenever snipe is available above 1-2 emps; use medivac as scout if need; you need a medivac anyway to carry the ghost to safety (like archons, they are just thrown away unnessesary while stalkers and marines are microed back and allowed to heal :P
emp is so imba
4:20 you took half the lives of 11 units with one click
emp needs way smaller area that it attacks or just emps one single unit like feedback. what if feedback took the health and energy of a medivac but also 10 units around it go to half health
i hate ghosts
im just going start playing T
17:25 or maybe not start the unit off with free energy to be able to erase half the lives of 5 units for the cost of 1 ghost, useless sentries at that point as well lol
True
25:50 or give vipers and infestors a snipe ability AND a regular attack. im suprised ghost doesnt have burrow with tunneling claws.
ghosts are so op
@@hurricane1noxdoesn't need burrow with cloak❤
@@riselin they just keep getting better lol
Once you have a few ghosts can't you just produce marauders out of the rax to save on gas.
the zergs giving protoss zerglike builts, the protoss giving terran new builts ;P
yer ghost is op against everything from protoss and zerg, 4-8 ghost and you can only lose if you forget to pickup your ghost and let them all die to a blind baneling detonation (whenever i see 6+ ghost die like that i shake my head in pain, happens supricingly often with 10 medivacs over them and no anti air ) ^^
Dear Harstem, please do cheesiest man alive as Zerg when Reynor will change you in 10 minutes mark.
I didnt know harstem is able to read
What a time to be online.
Ghost mech feels like a Ruff build
You should ask clem, maru, byun, gumiho to try your new cheese
Harstem tell me, terran is imba? Ask Clem if possible, he might know better since he's world champ now
Ill answer that ,Yes it is .Toss is outta question since its the weakest , Between terran and zerg , If both are given perfect command ,Terran will always win (Too goddam cost effective ).
Before anyone try to point something ,Ive left sc2 gaming for years ,just here for vids ,so is not biased opinion ,its a fact
I’ll give you a hint, if it wasn’t imba, do you think it would be possible to 5-0 Serral? 😂
@@dpend you are wrong. flat out wrong. it was 8-0
@@dpendSerral is imba
@@uzairasif4684It’s not. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Harstem already answered all the imba questions about the ewc. He said that people who think a specific race is imba because they won are dumb.
Toss is fine in this meta. Terran is fine in this meta. And Zerg is fine in this meta.
Also saying you don’t have a biased opinion is so stupid. Just proves you have no idea what bias is. Youre a clown.
Ghost plus hellion drop, + emp is ruthless on probes, lmao, broken asf
Pecorino?
Goat cheese?
heh
hard to grasp why you let him flank you around 20 times (the game at around minute 18 plus) and NOT utilize your tanks to build more pressure and deny his 3rd base.
because he is only 6.5 6.6k some concepts are still new for him.
ure not even able to put timestamps and give "tips" to a pro gamer lmao
@@strammerdetlef 18:00 lol
typical German detlef making an argument invalid because it does not meet all the formal standards
Hear me out. +1 Blue flame, aggressively trade hellions for workers, fast 3rd, speed banshees, thor tank, +3 tank + viking, macro game split map. Win in efficiency.
It's a good strat
good chesse. almost as good as guuda.
Of course it works, you micro much better than someone 1k mmr lower than you lol..
14:45 you can emp the nexus to shutdown the potential off superbattery, if they put the battery close by or pylons etc. they are hit as well and force him to a worse fight or lose at minimum hp on them
15:48 few scv's on auto-repair, hold them behind the army, then move the hurt mechanic units back to them, getting auto-repaired and ready to hit melee shield off the opponent etc. maybe?
15:56 ghost like stalkers have a finite number you can effectively use; 4-8 ghost; anything you can't do with 4-8 is an issue on your management and micro and decision making. after that a couple off ravens for anti-armour missile (terrans midgame+ who fight without it should NEVER EVER win, neeever; it shows a complete lack off balance when terran continually can fight at -2attack, that's like refusing to use templars in any and all situations; or refusing to use vipers or mindcontrol; so many scenarios T can win while they just utilize their stuff horrid.
i also have a bone to pick with you protoss for NEVER having that +2armour shield on your armies; STOP a moving your sentries into the fight, they are supposed to be spellcasters, like templars; start treating them as such or at Bare minimum right click them on a unit who isn't making them be the first target once melee is gone...
it's more forgiven bc you can easier disable the effect due to sentries dying, while AA-missile last forever and cant be countered ^^ .. like ghost..
GGWP
emp nexus
Terran cheese is smelly and runny
You are protoss player. Why do you play terran
Cap youre starting to piss me of for showing terrans who already only cheese more cheeses
drink it then
first! hahah