45-70 vs 30-06: Steel Has Never Been Hit So Hard
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ย. 2022
- In today's video, we will see if the 45-70 has what it takes to penetrate more steel than a 30-06. All of the testing was done at 50 yards using a529 grade 55 mild steel. Thanks for watching!
I will have a testing device that keeps the plates at the same angle in the next video.
Brass Catcher: amzn.to/3O1ZHm6
These tests are for educational and entertainment purposes only. Shooting steel can be dangerous, so do not try any of these tests at home! Contains affiliate link to Amazon. - กีฬา
I have been reloading both cartridges for 50+ years. 45-70, 300 gr hollow point 2,400 fps! That is a very hot load. Most reloading manuals with that bullet list a maximum velocity of 2,100 in a lever gun. The 30-06 will out penetrate a 45-70 due to the reduced frontal mass and longer bullet of the .30 caliber. That is why 6.5 mm is such a penetrator at modest velocities. That said the 45-70 is Thor's hammer.
One of those lead tipped suckers hitting anything in the shoulders or sternum is lights out in North America under a hundred yards. I can't imagine the force behind it and if I got hit there I wouldn't have much time to contemplate it.
@@stevesmith2171 The 45-70 is a killer since 1873, for sure. I have shot many deer and elk with a 45-70 and never tracked a one. I did have an elk stare at me after the hit for about 30 seconds before it just collapsed. My Thor load is a 250 gr Barnes copper hollow point loaded with Acc 1680 to 2,600 fps (Barnes manual #3). point blank to 250 yard .
It is just about the hottest load I could find under lever action on the hodgdon website. I figured that I would need as much velocity as possible since the 45-70 loses it so fast. That is a great summary, and I agree that it is Thor's hammer...... On both ends!
It would be really interesting to see what that solid copper would do on the steel.
@@bananaballistics It is harder than lead. Look at Barnes manuel #3. A 250 gr copper can be driven to 2,600 fps with AA 1680. I check zeroed my rifle yesterday with that load. WOW, muzzle flash and hold on to the rifle. It shoots real flat to 200 yards. It makes deer real dead.
Penetration is a good thing but delivering the energy to the target is another discussion. IMHO getting hit by either round is a terminal wound.
You're not kidding!
Honestly barrier penetration at range 30/06 but I feel like through meat and bone a heavy loaded all hard cast, or copper 45-70 will do better than a 30/06
"One of the cleanest holes I've seen". . . Me too brother. . . me too. . .
Bullet design affected the penetration test. Do it again with a modern spitzer type bullet in the 45-70. I think the results would be interesting 👍
There was definitely a lot of exposed lead on the 45-70 bullet. I am hoping to try it again with solid copper bullets in the future, so I'll try and load up some spitzers for that test as well.
@@bananaballistics awesome 👍. Thanks man!
@@bananaballistics try some hornady rtx rounds. Faster velocity. Pointed tipped. Copper jacketed. Less grain size though
4570 is the only government i trust
Not the .30-'06 gov't?
Love your content!!! Please keep this style going brother!!
I really appreciate it! Still room for improvement but I'm slowly getting it lol
Very different I enjoy watching your videos
Love this terminal ballistics stuff your putting up. Keep it up😁👍The reason the 45-70 with more energy doesn't go through the steel the same as the 30-06, is surface area for those who don't know. A lil' hint.
Exactly, and using SP didn't help the cause.
Nice vid! realy hard hitting! I shot a 30-06 today at my gunclub, remington 30-06 bolt, almost the same as a 303 british ( Lee Enfield)
I comment rarely, but here we go. Back in the 80s uncle sam gave me a sweet job shooting the 308, or 7.62x51 for you sticklers out there. Have LOTS of experience, no need to expound on that (yes, I'm old). The M21 was my baby. I helped Uncle Sam develop the next model. (Again, I'm old). Got out of service in 88 and wanted a new 308 when I got home. Went through a pre-ban HK91 that I sold way to cheap. Then to a DPMS 308LR. Shouldn't have sold that one either. Then saw the Quigley movie. I want one of those I said to me!! Unbenounced to me, my GF at the time (evidently liked me ALOT...and she was rich) bought me a Browning 1885 falling block in 45-70. WELL! The local deer, brake disks, concrete blocks, steel plates, whatever I shot, DID NOT like that rifle. Then...we broke up and......I sold it. STUPID!!
I went through a period when I thought I didn't need guns (thank God I got passed that!!) So, I went back to my roots and got M1A NM and took care of my long-range need for doing just that back in the day. I still wanted another 45-70. I had a crap load of reloading stuff for a rifle I didn't own...WTF? So I got a Marlin 1895SS Guide gun with the fancy magna porting and 5 rounds of quick succession shoulder pounding, damn I wish hadn't done that, recoil. So, after shooting hundreds of different loads in that short, pretty, little howitzer, I have found that the 400 grain hard cast, loaded with about anything from Blue Dot to Unique to its max grams (according to Lyman, I don't believe it, use your own judgement, kids...DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.), is probably the round which will penetrate like you would not believe. Posting anywhere from 1800 to 2600 FPS. No damage to the rifle so far, never loaded outside of safe specs...much, but I'm not going to live much longer so I don't GAF.
I have tested REAL 308AP(not what you are told or shown is) and it has its place, but so does the hardcast 45-70. So what are my babies now. Those two, plus "some others". A big family is a happy family!!
Good video dude! Keep shootin'!!
Pretty interesting, great video
Good job
I used a heavy jacketed 350 grain Kodiak 45/70 and it punched clean holes thru 1/4" plates, looked like they'd been drilled!
I was really surprised how cleanly it went through 1/4" as well!
The deer I've taken with both cartridges never complained
Well said, I can't imagine they did!
@@bananaballistics in my 45 -70 I use 65 grns of 3F, Winchester Mag primer and a paper patched, 20:1 soft cast RnFP hollow base bullet with a wad and biscuit of lube. I also handload for my 30-06.
I have a 1874 sharps quigley 34 inch barrel. Ive seen first hand the power of 45-70 on targets.. and its pretty scary. I had 3 buckets lined up with a sandy muddy mixture inside.. shot them with my 44 magnum lever action and it jist made a hole. Then my 54 caliber black powder rifle.. made a bigger hole.. then my 45-70 sharps.. and the bucket exploded into 50 peices and shot muddy sand everywhere
Definitely should redo this test with your plate holder
45-70 might not be as spicy as the 30-06, but it hits like a freight train. If I had to pick one for hunting, I'd probably pick the 45-70 as long as I wasn't planning on taking anything too far away.
I agree! I use mine for shots 100 yards and in for the most part.
45 70 will take a grizzly from 100 yards
@@kenjuicekrajewski9577 Grizzly will require about 6 seconds to cover 100 yards! I'd rather take them from A LOT longer distance!
@@dundonrl yes he wont know what hit him wont see you but will smell you and you will have time for 2-3 more if hes coming after the 1st on uneven terreain and or up hill rocks etc
I load up a 220 grain Nosler partition for my 30-06. It's pretty high energy on target, more than the usual 45-70 loads you see. Easier on the shoulder I'm betting too. Both are great calibers at the appropriate range.
Using SP on a steel penetration test? They are made to expand. One is 45 caliber, one is 30 caliber. Which one will expand wider and slow down faster?
I have firsthand experience with a 7mm rem mag going easily through 1/2” mild steel at 50-100 yds.
I put 405gr hard cast lead with 54gr of H335 in my reloads. It doesn’t penetrate the steel gong but I have to walk down and set the target back up every time. My 30-06 just swings it a little bit.
If you load a .45-70 for a Mauser action you can load it much hotter. Some years back, Mauser rifles from Thailand were converted to .45-50. The loads were stout.
I would like to see 30.06 FMJ surplus ammo used against the steel, vs soft point.
That first plate straight dissappeared! 🤣😆😂
That was CRAZY!
Yes it did!! I have a new testing device for the next video, but after seeing what the 45-70 can do, I hope that it can hold up🤣
@@bananaballistics you gotta build a clamp thingy.
Maybe not... cuz that was super funny. I seriously busted out laughing. Even thinking about it is making me chuckle again... it was so cartoonishly comical. Lmao
If you are looking for steel penetration, you should use the same composition of bullet.
I am confident that a solid copper underwood xtreme penetrator would out-penetrate the same round in 30-06 on steel.
Hey bro i just want to let you know that i was already a sub of your channel and i did a search on a cartridge and one of your video's popped up in the list, although its not about the cartridige im looking for i clicked. But i see im no longer subscribed to your channel when i got here? So i subbed again and like the video of course, because they are cool! LOL
I would like you to do a test between .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, and maybe even back to the 45-70. I run .450 in an 18 inch AR and would like to see how it compares. Thanks.
You need a 45-70 HSM 430gr hardcast bullet.
Yes hard cast penatrates must deeper then the snub nose rounds closer to a 50 cal
awsome content. could you do an incendiary 308 or 556 vs steel plates or armor piercing vs steel plates?
If I can locate some projectiles, I will give it a try.
Love the big bores, but can hardly justify dropping $900+ on a .45-70. I cheated and got a nice .450 Bushmaster upper. Closely mimics the .45-70 performance out to 100 yards or so, which is all I need it for. Nice test. Love watching your vids, Nana.
I spent 2000$ on my 1874 sharps quigley... trust me.. i still feel the pain to this day LOL... but its one hell of a fun rifle to shoot.. whwn i do pull it out
@@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305 Yeah, I had a beautiful, awesome shooting DS ARMS FAL but sold it cause someone offered a large chunk O' change. Always a tough decision.
I wanna see .45-70 vs .444 marlin! And .50bmg vs .416 barrett
Are gun powder specifics (type/characteristics) relevant to barrel length? As in, the specific powder can perform better in a shorter or longer barrel. Upshot, just having the same barrel length for two different rounds doesn’t make it a fair comparison if one the rounds is loaded with powder that doesn’t perform best in those barrel lengths?
You used a soft points for the 45 70 The 30th 6 looked like a full metal jacket I would like to see you using an extreme penetrator Plus p in the 45 70
Very good video thank you.
I have a Winchester 1886 in 45/70 but my loads don't deliver 3838 ft/lbs by far ;)
Out of an 1886 I'm sure lol. This is just about the most powerful (muzzle energy wise) load I could find for a marlin lever action 45-70.
@@bananaballistics it's a new one by miroku and i shoot hornady ftx good but not so powerful than your load ;)
@@rex116 So it's not a Winchester 1886 or even an 86 Winchester.
@@steveletson6616 LOL
Putting .458 solids in a 45/70 is the move up in penetration. This bullet is used with 458 Win mag , but can make a 45/70 a real thumper
Is it possible to put the steel into some type of frame so it doesn't give up so much energy? I've seen 405 rem go through two long ballistic gels water jugs and embed in body armor. I'm guessing a spitzer tip at 30 cal vs a 45 RN one is a bulldozer and one slices but they both displace the lightweight steel. I guess if you are always testing the same you have a consistency.
Thought: what if you used the intended barrel length for the particular cartridge instead of the EXACT same barrel length? For example, when comparing 556 to 300blk you use 20" barrel for the 556 (or maybe different lengths according to different considerations such as 16" as it is the most common rifle barrel length for the 556) and 8" for the 300 blk, instead of for example using 16" for both cartridges
Try the 45-70 again with some hard cast bullets
Deer, Moose, Bear, Coyote, Wild Boar at 175+ yards with .45-70..... Wouldn't trade it for anything except .303 British or .308. Penetration in steel is nowhere even close to ENERGY and SHOCKWAVE through tissue and vital organs.
Not sure you're being fair to the venerable 45-70 since I believe that modern factory loads are low pressure that is safe for original 1886 black powder models. I have had 3 1886 rifles: an original, a Browning High Grade, and the new version Winchester I got for $795 when it came out 25 or so years ago. I had shot tons of rounds but then when I got dies and powder, I loaded a 'starting load' I think with 4227 and 405gr ,and bruised my shoulder so bad with the curved buttplate that I sold the gun and hurt for 3 or 4 years. Try your test again with modern pressure safe loads for Ruger #1 or Henry or Marlin 1895 or new Winchester and see what happens. Otherwise I really like and enjoy the videos. thnx
It's all about the construction material and design of the projectile.
Can we see a video of 45-70 extreme penetrators, FMJ, or solid copper bullets against 1/2" mild steel? curious to see what will happen.
Not quit banana to banana. The 45 70 is a soft point . Fun video anyway. Thanks for posting
What magazine and barrel do you have on your 30-06? I'm about to have my gunsmith turn my 30-06 into a tack driver hunting rig for hunting elk out west. Im also wanting to use an external magazine.
It was a factory 700 stainless barrel that I had rechambered, cut down and threaded. I also had the wood stock inlet to fit a magpul magazine well that takes aics mags.
If you’re going to use a long-stroke cartridge for “tack driving,” you should probably use a magnum round like 300 WM or 338 lapua. Personally, I haven’t found a good reason outside long-range, precision to shoot anything other than .308 win at pretty much any medium or large North American game. It’s cheap, reliable, effective, and doesn’t take a whole lot of skill unless you’re shooting over 500 yards.
And to be perfectly honest, you’re probably better off getting something like a Ruger Precision than trying to upgrade and accurize and existing rifle. There’s just too many good factory “precision” rifles now to worry about barrel swaps, bedding, and trigger upgrades, unless you are building the thing from the ground up. Like, an off the shelf Tikka is going to shoot better than most of us can take advantage of, and you can do that for under a grand.
@@altortugas5979 I'm very familiar with the .308 and 300WM. Used both in Afghanistan I'm like to tinker and take something old and make it shoot like a Tikka. With my 308 or 300WM 500 yds is to easy. But yes I agree with you 100% on off the shelf modern rifles.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand swapping out barrels on an older rifle, stuff wears out. I guess it was the notion of turning it into a tack driver that struck me as… ambitious? …optimistic? I mean, I won’t tell you not to tinker, and you shouldn’t listen if I did. Customizing is one of the best things about firearms. Idk, maybe I just Overreacted because that phrase feels so over-used. Anyway, good luck with the elk!
Just getting into hunting and looking to buy my first hunting rifle. Got it to a bolt 30-06 and a Marlin 45-70. Which would you choose and why?
Depends on what kind of hunting you're doing. The Marlin .45-70 is one of my Eleanor guns, but a bolt action .30-'06 is another of my favorites. Unless you are hunting dangerous game (grizzly bear) the added cost and recoil of the .45-70 and reduced range is probably not worth it. I'm saying that as a person who has wanted one for 30+ years too.
@@joshrandall3632 thank you!
.30-06 ammo is cheaper and a lot easier to find. Both were difficult to find during the plan-demic but easier to find .30-06. Not much point to owning a gun with no ammo. I had two friends trying to sell me their very new .45-70s during the plan because ammo was nowhere to be found. I still don't own one. Both are beautiful and as American as apple pie, but I don't see myself clubbing animals with my guns when the SHTF.
I just watched a video of 3006 AP go through 1" mild steel. You should test some on 1 1/4"
Penetration vs severe internal bleeding
I love and hunt with them both but here in the northeast nothing cuts through the trees and knocks down a deer like the 45 - 70, takes care of the noisy squirrels too!
Well I guess now you need to test solid copper bullets vs fmj
I definitely plan to!
Need to try 220 grain 30-06 round
You should have shot the 1/2 inch plate and saw how deep the crater was with the 45-70.
I shoot black powder 45-70 and 45-100(sharps) at a 1/4 inch steel plate with cast lead/tin and it simply leaves a smear on the steel.
thanks for this comment...i was wondering what the real bullets of the 1870s would do to a 1/4 inch steel plate...like black powder 45-70s from an 1873 Springfield, or 44 Henry, or 44-40 from a 1873 winchester or 50-90 from a sharps? I am a complete novice but i did not think they'd penetrate at all....I know 1/4 inch is equal to 6.5mm...do you think they could anything against even less, like an 1/8th of an inch?
That’s a clean hole.
What is the name of the 30-06 Rifle
Pretty sure you can get Spitzer bullets for 45-70. Would have been a better comparison.
I would like to see penetration of the 45-70 lever evolution ammo.
What is the 30-06 Rifle
I wonder if that 30-06 would punch through on a more solidly set plate. A lot of energy is being dissipated as the plate flops around on impact.
Good
Shocking results. I thought the 45 .70 wod out do the 30.06 .
Reprise this with your steel sled,but use a hot load in the 4570
This more of bullet design test. So the bullet coming out of the 30-06 has an advantage.
Its time to grind !!!!!!!!!!!
Should redue this with the new set-up
Hey, if that 45-70 will punch through 1/4" steel, why would you need Buffalo Bore bullets for Bear?
I wanna see 7mm Rem mag vs 300 Win mag, or 300 Win mag vs 338 Lapua Mag
I will be testing at least 2 of those calibers in the near ish future
@@bananaballistics awesome bro, can’t wait to see.
50 BMG vs 416 Barret?
Sectional density of bullet is key to penetrate. My opinion
the soft lead nose would be better off for hunting, trying something like a 45-70 xtreme perpetrator would do alot better
Would have been nice to see the 45-70 shooting Buffalo Bore hard cast +P+ rounds
Why nit try the 45/70 hard cast rather than soft lead?
I wanted to see the 45-70 toss the half inch plate
Try a 405 grain hard cast bullet in the 45-70.
I'm pretty sure anti-tank cannons, rifles and missiles hit steel harder than this since WW1 onwards...
Throwing Boulders!
can't pick my rifle for the california apocalypse...needs back up iron sights, detachable mag, semi or lever and capable of 200yard. mini 14 meh, m1 eh, m1a so close.... BAR MK III.... SO CLOSE but no iron sights.... modern levers with high capacities also looking so good... winchesters, henry, marlin.. the gun that one the west and i live by the winchester mystery house... 308, 30-30, 30-06, 360 buck,45-75...?? lookin for high penetration for personal defense too so i don't think 45-70 is my choice... i gotta make an excel sheet - what's the most afffordable and popular and available in cali? tough times.. i'm goin bananas deciding..
Sectional density and velocity won
The vast difference in bullet composition makes this "penetration test" next to worthless. Not sure what the point of this "test" is, other than showing that semi-jacketed soft-nose rounds aren't optimized for penetration.
The 30-06 looks FMJ or nearly (it may be soft-tipped but just barely) coming to a near point, while the 45-70 rounds used semi-jacketed flat soft-nosed bullets intended to expand and transfer massive shock.
While not penetrating as well, I would guess the energy and shock imparted to the target was vastly greater for the 45-70. But we all know fully jacketed rounds are known for greater penetration with not as much energy transferred at point of contact.
Think of this way, it's easier to stab through objects with a icepick than with a hammer but which one will do more damage?
Great analogy
I own several reproductions and the springfeild trapdoor is one of them i do not buy ammo online for it i just buy the casings and make my own with a ammo press its cheaper and i get way better results than the low velocity govt .45-70 ammo i use triple 7 or pyrodex if i dont have triple 7. fun fact about .45-70 ammo you buy premade, it doesnt have the full 70 grains of powder in it and it doesnt use the original 500 grain lead flat round they use about 60 grains of powder and a 405 grain ball also if you make your own rounds do not use black powder specs if you use pyrodex or triple 7 you will blow your hands off its a more powerful powder than black powder
Grizzly bear running at ya..... 45-70 all the way.....
45/70 is what they used to take down buffalo back in the day. It was a one hitter quitter.
I can definitely see why. Even at black powder velocities it is a giant chunk of lead!
God's own dinner bell.
WWII 30 06 AP?
You sound like a radio voice or voice actor
A demonstration of the difference between energy and force. The smaller 30-06 bullet delivers greater force because the energy is applied over a smaller surface area. The result is that more work (penetration) is done.
Mmm sort of.
Penetrating steel all comes down to velocity.
Respectfully, no. 17HMR and 308WIN have pretty much the same muzzle velocity, one of them delivers much more force, in this case it’s because of the mass difference in the projectiles. The energy is the mass x velocity squared, but for force you have to divide it by surface area. So yeah, not sort of, that’s exactly how it works, and this video - really, all his videos - are good practical demonstrations of this.
In my experience ghe light /faster bullet penetrates steel better than the more sectionally dense bullet (same calliber). -even though the heavier bullet has more force. Steel is different to other media for some reason. Love to see him do the experiment. Of course anything can be disproven if taken to extremes, and my comment doesn't hold for 17 hmr i wouldn't think.
300 win mag next
You are basically comparing a sledge hammer to a war pick! Nothing on the other end is going to care once they are hit.
😎👍👍👍😎
But but I know a guy that his cousins sisters brother that shot 1 inch plate with a 45-70 and it shook the eath. Lol jk. Thought someone would get laugh.
WHY ARE YOU USEING A 300 gr. HP WHY NOT 405 OR 500 300gr. IS LITE
What about 30-06 and 45-70 AUTO? Or even 45-70 vs. 45-70 auto?
I ask as a European "protected from dangerous firearms by my government".
So things "obvious" to any gun nut living out there beyond the pond - is sadly not so apparent to me.
My family has been casting and reloading for both 45-70 and 45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) for 4 generations now, and the two are very different in terms of power. The short barrel and smaller powder charges in .45 auto makes for much lower velocities; around 900 ft/sec with 200 grain slugs. It'll punch holes in stuff, for sure, but stopping power is limited to around 800 joules of energy. With the 45-70, you can see velocities of 2200ft/sec from 300+ grain slugs in a 26" barrel. More lead, moving much faster, can give you energy of 4000+ joules per round or more. My lever action 1895CB can hold 9 rounds, which is equivalent in energy to almost 50 rounds of 45 ACP. Additionally, due to being supersonic, 45-70 can cause what's called hydro-shock in moist targets; water in the target can flash to vapor due to the shockwave at impact. This effect can cause damage in soft targets much larger than the projectile itself. In my youth, my old man and I vaporized many a poor unfortunate watermelon with our 45-70. Often we couldn't even find any rind left.. Haha..
@@MechMan0124
TY for that Info.
But still - it would be fun to watch a regular .45-70 versus .45-70 AUTO used by Phoenix Weaponry.
The description looks like it is "buffed-up" .45-70
But how buffed? Simple numbers are not that entertaining for someone who can't depict those "values" acting on a target.
@@hubertET It looks like Phoenix Weaponry is just milling their brass to make it rimless, and then hot-loading their 45-70 like us hand-loaders do. Factory 45-70 ammo sucks; they load to around 20,000 CUP (copper units of pressure) to keep from damaging the older rifles out there and catching lawsuits. Action strength on modern rifles can handle up to 44,000 CUP (consult your manual!), so there's enormous headroom for improvement. We have a family load we call our "T-Rex" load; 450g cast, heat treated hollow-point w/gas check over a compressed powder load I won't disclose here.. We consider it single-use since it leaves an ugly pressure ring at the bottom of the brass, and they can't be reloaded after that, but 9 of those will solve most any problem that could present itself.
@@MechMan0124 Again TY for the answer. Quite a few things for me to look up and read about :)
What are you doing???? The 45-70 comes in 3 different strengths. You obviously shot the 45-70 trapdoor which although not a wimpy round it's just no where near what the others will do. Then there's the 45-70 standard which is basically 30-06 ballistics with improved knock down power and then the 45-70 strong which is much more powerful than the 30-06. Please note that when they manufacture bullets with the 45-70 they like to sell it with the power of the 45-70 trap door to avoid any lawsuits from someone who pulls out a firearm made when people were still throwing rocks at each other for defense, who might try to put in a 45-70 that has pressures that will blow out the side of those very old firearms. The 45-70 trap door is a black powder round and firearms manufactured to only handle these cannot take the pressures of the other 2 rounds mentioned. Guaranteed the 45-70 standard will go through 3/8 steel plate and the 45-70 strong will most definitely go through a 1/2 steel plate no problem.
🧼 🕳
Nope, 45/70 will lose
I once lost a bet over a 30-06 penetraiting the Webb of a rail road rail. I didn't count on AP ammunition. The Webb measured 11/16"
That is an insane amount of penetration, but I guess that's why they call it AP.
A 7.62 X 54R will penetrate a rail.
I also have a very clean hole.
NEED TO HAVE YOUR STEEL IN A SOLID REST -- SHOULD NOT BE ANY GIVE AT ALL UPON IMPACT -- INTERESTING TEST OTHERWISE