Some of my Facebook friends mentioned Kirin vs Deer-Spot patterns. Here is my opinion. No matter Kirin or deer-spot Patterns, both refer to two colors on one scale, color pattern indeed. The only difference is that Kirin is more rigorous and requires two color pattern on Every Single scale. By this definition, deer spot goldfish could be a subset of Kirin pattern, or vice versa. Deer-spot pattern was introduced by Japanese breeders. Pls let me know your comments/thoughts 😀
Thank you so much, I am in using t he is info for picking out a Kirin Oranda this Friday, I'll post a video of the shop and the fish Friday. All are around 5-6" and alot of the ones called Kirin there actually aren't if you go by this info. I think alot are Calico and just called Kirin anyhow.
Awosome Goldfish Thank you Thank you. Lots of things we need to compile and learn together. Please help me if you have any questions and topics like me or the community to dig. Let’s make a difference together
@@GoldfishCorner I didn't reply because I didn't have much knowledge on kirin coloring. My Facebook name is Jess d'Artagnan Love if you would like to connect there. I've been keeping goldfish since I was around 9 years old and I have a long term goal of breeding and selling pearlscales (not there yet mostly because I lack space in my townhome). facebook.com/jess.d.love
@@GoldfishCorner You're welcome, okay brother, sharing it to my fanpage giobel koi center by the way, can you please shout out me on your next video thanks
I am not big on koi. But I will mention your channel on my future video. Not the next one since I already made it, but will do for the one after next one, Buddy.
@@GoldfishCorner hi. I like so much what you do about Goldfish culture. I wanna tell you in Argentina in the 60's the goberment free some wakins in the rivers of "Pampa húmeda ", the fertil area of the country. This fish was named "pampa" or "pampeano". This was made just for fishing... Now we lost this wakin in the will. I hope be usefull this information. Regards from Argentina
Thank you for the hard work you do keeping this such an informative channel. I have only just found you and have been enjoying all of the topics so far.
James, I don’t have any outdoor ponds. One of my dreams is to use wooden tub (木海) 45” diameter or more, the traditional Chinese way of goldfish keeping. Unfortunately, the shipping will cost my arms and legs. I am still working on it. Please let me know if you have any resources.
Hi GoldFish Corner, I am an oranda and I wondering is it a kirin or not, I think she is a yellow center and black rim. Would you please give me some contact that I can send you its clips and picture. Thank you so much for giving so much exactly knowledge about goldfish
Hi Enzo, great question! The short answer is I don’t know. Lots of Kirin pattern is actually during the transition of goldfish colorization. For instance, if you see a goldfish Kirin scale (red and black), eventually it may become a red fish.
@@GoldfishCorner I have just discovered your channel few days ago and find it very useful. Not knowing Chinese culture and language makes it hard to understand many issues (kirin is a good example). I will also link your channel in my newest video as you are the only one to provide good info on goldfish eye types.
Captain Chocolate Cake Thabk you, Caption. I wish my channel could be a channel to break the language barrier for many goldfish keepers. Enjoy goldfish keeping
I will have to disagree with the photographs- the Oranda is red and White, my guess metallic and has a Deerspot feature. I find the deerspot a very structured way of coloring and does not fit with the Nacreous set. One Ranchu is blue and the other is black with a light base meaning it could fade out later in life. The Kirin color is family to Sakura and more closely to Calico. The three colors together are called Nacreous Scales. A fish is either that, Matte or metallic. The Kirin goldfish color is like Calico, but the black and blue is much denser and spread out, usually the two colors sharing a scale. The front half of the tail is dark, peduncle to middle. There are no sesame spots in this color, but windows or random pockets of patches exposing yellow, white and red. Like Calicos, Grade A Kirins have more red on the head. Most of the scales are double colored, but Kirins are more metallic than Calicos. Red and white goldfish are either metallic or Sakura.
Thank you for watching my video and taking your time in writing this long comment. Enjoy the discussion with you😄. Depends on how you understand Kirin 🤔. Based on the goldfish naming convention, Kirin goldfish is named by Resemblance of the Chinese mythical creature Kirin ”麒麟”, which has two colors per scale. Any goldfish with consistent two-color per scale can be called Kirin or 麒麟斑. I have no problem with your theory on scale transparency and body color pattern. However, I am not sure how your fancy theories have anything to do with the creature of Kirin 麒麟. Goldfish naming is like an Open-Source programming. We are OK on whatever name you like to call as long as you provide us the culture/history backgrounds. As I mentioned in my video, my purpose is to provide history and culture backgrounds for goldfish names but not necessarily to build an ISO standards on goldfish naming. In my video, I provided the ancient book 《朱鱼谱》with clear definition of Kirin 麒麟, the ceramic plate and long shirt back in Qing dynasty to show the Kirin 麒麟 images, and the similarity to the goldfish. I am more interested in seeing any history and culture materials that you have to back up your theories.
@@GoldfishCorner I don't get to discuss about goldfish at this high a level as often as I would like, so I thank you! I really enjoy these goldfish videos. I appreciate you and your knowledge from far away. My theories come from studies, observations, and discussions from over the years at home or with other hobbyists. I learn things via facebook pages too. Here in The Netherlands they really suck at naming goldfish due to terrible translations and this is a topic I am keen about. Here at home I never use the confusing terms they use here. This encourages me to find different sources and information. With the love of goldfish i'm driven to know more about them. As for this discussion: What boggles me is (after watching your show) just, what makes a Kirin a Kirin? This two- tone scaling is a very common sight in the Kirin color, I just think that not every fish with that feature should be called a Kirin (Nacreous), ONLY because their color is like the mythical creature. I always expect Kirin to be Calico- like in components, matte with an amout of mettalic scales as opposed to a fusion of any two random colors like the Lavender Ranchu shown. I see Kirin like the mythical creature in color, but don't see any relation to the other Nacreous family members (Calico, Sakura). The fish in photography shows fish with a plain solid base or bi- coloured. The first Telescope is a more familiar sight of a true Kirin (Nacreous). The red and white coudn't be Kirin, because Nacreous scales with only red and white is called Sakura. What's shown is not Sakura, but metallic red and white with a fancy pattern. As diverse as Calico and Sakura can be per individual, there is a structure as to how many colors may be present. A black, blue and a different calico- like from the pictures look like they are not from the same type, only mythical type. This is the first time I see deerspot included. I would like some more light shed on this coloring style, if you can provide any please. I don't have much knowledge about this pattern, but it's something seen often among metallic fish as well or when a fish is transforming from one color to another. Black to orange, orange to white. Tricolored fish have this alot, and this is a phase and not a fixed color. If Deerspot is an actual legit thing I would like to know more. I believe that every known color (whether it fades or not), has it's set of rules. Either it is one known color, or it is moving on the another color.
I think I discovered a new breed of goldfish can I show you it? It has a hinged mouth that when open has an hourglass shape. It’s tail fins are short. It is most similar to a standard fancy goldfish.
I did some research. And the secret to breeding for Kirin color. Is 1.) Milk Cow Parent 2.) and Blue Metallic Scale, or Black Metallic Scale Parent ☝️ A secret kept by ranchu breeders
Finally! I have been pulling my hair out arguing with a friend on what constitutes a kid in goldfish. Turns out we were both wrong as are many many online and bricks and mortar goldfish retailers/wholesalers. Leave it to you to set us straight on the matter Lei. How in the world did this all go so wrong? I had only the vaguest feeling that the explanation I received and the explosion of fish being sold under the appellation 'Kirin' were not the real version. I am so happy to 1. know that I was right - that what I was told and the huge number of fish being sold as 'kirin' where not correct and 2. even more happy to discover what a true Kirin colour pattern was and its historical origins. Thank you Lei. Of course this has fired up my mind again so I do have a couple of questions so I'll try to be brief (I don't think that is even possible but here goes...). With such a strong connection to a Chinese mythological creature such as the Kirin and with such detailed and readily available historical breeding/sales records and data of kirin goldfish how have so many modern breeders, retailers and hobbiests become so confused as to what a real Kirin goldfish should look like? Especially, given the strong cultural significance and easily referenced data from some of the more significant historical breeders in China; this should have been clear ... but it isn't. A few years ago a friend purchased a beautiful butterfly telescope goldfish and was told it was a Kirin version of the breed. The fish was stunning to my mind and reasonably priced at $150 and purchased from a very respected retailer whose fish are sourced from Chinese breeders and even he or they were wrong. The retailer and I both were under the impression that the Kirin patterned goldfish was a calico goldfish that lacked the blue in its colouration - the fish that my friend purchased had nacreaous and metallic scales and not a trace of the blue colour you would find in calico goldfish. We even found photographic references on the internet depicting Kirin pattern butterfly telescopes that significantly matched the very one my friend had purchased. What I find to be so funny and frustrating at the same time is that over the intervening years even this definition has also shifted and that so many fish are being sold as having the Kirin colouration that it seems now to just a trendy word without real meaning like calling something Kleenex or Xeroxed when what you bought was just plain old facial tissue or had a document photocopied. At some point the goldfish authorities of the world had arrived at breed standards ... and for the most part these standards are adhered to by breeders and retailers or a least loosely followed. Most goldfish experts and lay hobbiest alike would agree on what an. 'oranda' was if shown 3 pictures - one a bubble eye, another a common goldfish and the other some variety of oranda. The experts might quibble a bit on what kind of oranda it was or argue on how well it conformed to a standard particular oranda but they at least would agree on which picture within some level of certainty +- a relatively low margin of error was the oranda. This consensus on what constitutes a particular breed for the commonly available goldfish types or varieties, I assume, didn't just happen; did it? I have mentioned this before but I think that there has hot to be more than just me whose frustrated by how 'wild west and cowboy' the goldfish world is becoming. It seems that everday onother retailer or breeder is making up names for a particular offering. In the oranda world the popular and once highly prized thai orandas being sold with their orchid, rose or peony tails have had their descriptions hijaked by any number of breeders or retailers that have any type of mutt goldfish with head growth and a dorsal fin as a Thai Oranda with just about any tail type but for having a flowing flower-typed tail. It's so bad that many are sold that don't even conform to the body type that Thai orandas had become known for possessing and the sad thing is no one seems to care. Why go to the considerable time and effort of bringing a breed to market have them garner top prices only only to have either poor quality examples or fish that should have been culled or just plain fakes to take over the market and drive the price of real quality specimens down and making the development of new breeds or the maintenance of existing varieties too expensive to be profitable. There needs to be some incentive for the industry to innovate and protect what they create and to have the words we use to market the fish we have actually hold meaning so that their use does become synonymous with a particular fish. For other domesticated animals: cats, dogs, cattle etc. we have breeds and domesticated plants: daylily, tulips, dogwoods, potatoes, tomatos etc. have cultivars (cultivated varieties) and in some cases these breeds and cultivars are actually patented by the creator/breeder. These varieties and even pattents are all subject to rules, governing bodies, registration requirements etc.. All of which were arrived at through consensus by a particular group or in the case of patented varieties gives where a unique genetic profiles are scientifically determined and where changes are needed and when new varieties or breeds arise or colour variants of breed fall out of favour or new ones created in existing breeds everything gets decided on collectively usually at a convention of internationally or nationally recognised associations or panels of experts. For instance breeders petition the Westminster Kennel Club to have a new breed or colour variatiant recognised and there are rules that must be adhered to with new breeds beings shown only in open categories before they are are recognised as a new true breed or colour variation. Existing breeds on occasion become delisted or colour variation removed from the standard all based on recognised rules and regulations. My impression that for dogs and cats this is true for Europe as well as Asian, South American and Australian bodies as well. Yes, there are differences between the various regions and governing bodies as to what is recognised with regard to whether a particular breed is recognised or not but I would say that a Great Dane with brindle colouration would could be identified by any canine breed expert or average dog lover at a dog show anywhere around the world or that any person walking in a dog part either in France or Osaka with even passing knowledge of dogs could identify the golden retriever in the group. Yet for an animal that has been domesticated for over 2000 years and has become so closely associated with the cultural heritage of 2 of the world's most significant and populated countries on the planet to the point of being synonymous with both (China and Japan), the goldfish has no real governing body or group of bodies that controls what gets accepted as a breed/type or variety. Pigeons have more internationally recognised rules governing them than goldfish do. In light of that and the fact that on any given day a goldfish is sold somewhere in the world at auction or even in a store in excess of $2000 USD by someone with more money to burn than I - isn't it time that some of the key breeders, experts both academic and lay and significant association or bodies were brought together either virtually or when fear of Coronavirus infection abates and meet face to face at a conference and hammers out a set of over all guiding principles of what constitutes the major true breeds, what the acceptably recognised mutations that will be officially humanely introduced or maintained for trade when breeding, what various colour patterns are and what breeds should carry them etc with mechanisms in place that outlines how existing breeds can be marketed, how breeders going forward can introduce new breeds or variants can be brought to market and sold and how those new breeds can be protected so that the originator can protect their investment from unscrupulous retaiers or breeders that want to cash in on a cash cow or take advantage of a new trend. Exceptions of couse should be made for historical breeds for instance I don't think the Ryukin should be protected by something akin to a patent. But rather that grandfathered breeds like the Ryukin or Celestial become the foundation stock of all new breeds to come without royalties etc being paid to a developer/breeder or organisation.
Breed developers need to be able to protect their intellectual and genetic property. I know that currently in China the concept of intellectual property has a hard time being recognised politically but for a nationally significant industry worth millions if not hundreds of millions of $ and that the industry is based on a creature that is held at such high esteem and pride that it is in no small part at the heart of the cultural identity of China that industry regulations or guidelines such as those should at least floated to the industry as something that should be officially encouraged especially if many of the Chinese breeders that fall in line and voluntarily adopt the guidelines could made to see that the way of making money under these guidelines is to become official suppliers of a particular official breed etc encouraging acceptance and adherence coyld also be seen as way of protecting the national brand or could be made more palitible by becoming part of the current regulatory framework in place over for agricultural or environmental policy or set of rules. Other industries dealing in the trade of livestock and fruit/veg/trees and garden and cut flowers have made it work, including China created examples. I really can't see this as that big a sale. Just think if a set of rules had been in place when the butterfly telescope was perfected and the breeder or group of breeders in the area of China it orinated applied for breed recognition, satisfied the rules and demonstrated breed stability and created the standard for the breed and then under that framework that region or breeder was compensated for each an every butterfly telescope sold around the world at some rate, annually adjused for inflation and protected from infringement for 50 years and that under that protection for 100 years any newly introduced and recognised breed where one of the parents or grandparents used to create the new breed was a butterfly telescope also resulted in some form of compensation under that framework? Regardless of the system of royalties/compensation that is a significant chunk of money even under something less stringent like set of guidelines or legal framework and it is a huge incentive to continue to innovate for and develop future new breeds. Under such a system a market for eggs and milt would surely develop for highly prized AAA Best in Show specimens that could be stored for decades to come and sold internationally in developing new and exciting breeds and further compensate the original developer of the breed. If a prized specimen can be sold for $2000 USD or more on any given day without anything in place guarrenteeing parentage or records of bloodlines or anything for else that matter other than the expert eye of the rich goldfish enthusiest who purchase said fish then there has to be some appetite in the industry to see that not just a specimen garners such prices but that the breed as well is protected in such a way as to produce a modest and reliably steady income stream for a particular period time for various grades of quality for that breed's creater and the officially authorised breeding farm(s) for the breed and that even at the lower end of that royalty framework everday consumers can be confident that the Kirin Ryukin with the peony tail that they bought is true to its label even extremely low pet grade price of 45 dollars. (Yes, I know Lei, that wasn't in anyway shape or form brief but what it lacks in brevity in more than makes up for in passion) 😀
Thank you for taking time to write this paper. Let me digest and get it back to you. Your insightful comments / questions really make me rethink lots of things and more hungry on goldfish knowledge. I wish I could meet you in person someday. Not only to shake hands but to LEARN from you. Thank you 🙏
First I wish I had your name. Several reasons of miss-used goldfish terms. First, less references in English. There are tons of goldfish breeding books in English. However, how many English goldfish books are available talking about breeds and origins. There several good ancient Chinese goldfish books gave clear definitions on breed attributes and origins, but there are no translated version. One of my goals of my channel is to introduce these definitions to the global community. In fact, I am translating the book that I mentioned in this Vid 《朱鱼谱》published in 1720. The books gave the definitions of 56 goldfish breeds. It will help out the miss-used the goldfish terms. Think about it. If you and your friends saw my Kirin video, then he/she will not be fooled by the seller. At least have some discussion to clarify/negotiate, instead of following the seller’s words. The second is that goldfish have constant changes and new terms pop up. Even old terms got extended meaning. For instance, I followed the old definition of Kirin. I heard from some of Chinese breeders that they tend to use Kirin more with Calico goldfish plus each scale with light rim. I agreed with you to solve this confusing goldfish terms is to establish some international standards and grades like ISO900, etc. I believe that we need to do this in two steps. Step one is to promote goldfish knowledges the generals audience about different terms/origins. Step two, we need to have a global committee to lead this effort with experts from all around the world, not from China, Japan, Thailand, but also US, Spain and other countries.
@@GoldfishCorner I like the sound of that approach and I agree with you that ultimately if an endeavour for such a creating a system or regulatory framework would need to happen in phases and it should engage all stakeholders from the entire spectrum of the goldfish world. Your point regarding education and outreach is extremely important especially for creating a common understanding of key the concepts among experts and lay hobbyists and even our younger pet owners who needs information to care for a pair of fantails and for engendering trust between and common purpose and buy-in of oll key agents so the other phases can be completed. It's important that this knowledge becomes the foundation and that we look to it as the common story or first chapter in book that has yet to be written and may hopefully never be finished. I'm excited to hear about your translation efforts of some key historical reference materials. It's the kind of projects that I see as being key to creating that common base foundation level we both agree as an important step the grand framework. It would be impossible for something as all encompassing as this framework would hopefully become if the various cultures both western and eastern (far and near) stakeholders all tried to participate and contribute to the project from a knowledge base that was just their own. We could never achieve it and it would be doomed to fail. All perspectives need to be understood. It creates a level of comfort, trust and respect when we are able to see and know what others in the past and present have done. Its only out of that kind of truly collaborative and critical review environment can all the knowledge to date can brought out to build a common basis of understanding and its that kind of environment that becomes easily replicated when the need build on that common foundation inevitably arises in response to innovation and new ways of understanding or new points of view needed to be considered. I like were both of our minds are going with this and its my hope that by working together maybe we can convince others the value in this possible future goldfish world view. To that end please feel free to contact me I enjoy our discussions and hope perhaps one day to have one together in person ... perhaps over tea, coffee or beer 😀 brucedoucette.67@gmail.com
Some of my Facebook friends mentioned Kirin vs Deer-Spot patterns. Here is my opinion. No matter Kirin or deer-spot Patterns, both refer to two colors on one scale, color pattern indeed. The only difference is that Kirin is more rigorous and requires two color pattern on Every Single scale. By this definition, deer spot goldfish could be a subset of Kirin pattern, or vice versa. Deer-spot pattern was introduced by Japanese breeders. Pls let me know your comments/thoughts 😀
I have never found any quality knowledge before. This is the best channel i would recommend.
Thank you, thank you!
厉害了，讲解清晰，逻辑严明，材料丰富，愣是有一种作科研的感觉
谢谢，主要是搭个桥，把中国文化介绍进来。
Thank you so much, I am in using t he is info for picking out a Kirin Oranda this Friday, I'll post a video of the shop and the fish Friday. All are around 5-6" and alot of the ones called Kirin there actually aren't if you go by this info. I think alot are Calico and just called Kirin anyhow.
Thank you Alex for sharing your experience. Always fun to explore culture background behind goldfish
I love the history of what the name Kirin means! lots of great info!
Thank you Buddy! 👍
Thanks for education video about Goldfish Kirin Gege Lie 😄
Thank you Lily and feel free to share the video to your friends 👍 🙏
@@GoldfishCorner okay Gege Lie... 😄🙏
Thank you! I like how the goldfishes featured in this video have a feel of Chinese paintings
You are right. They do look like the traditional Ink Wash Painting. Thank you my friend 👍
@@GoldfishCorner by the way, since you are explaining the colour patterns, may I request a vid on 五花 vs 三色, please?
@@veryboliao OK, mate. It is on my to-do list.
@@GoldfishCorner Thanks so much!! Good day!
👍 The only youtube channel that has this kind of info when it come to goldfish related. 🙏 Waiting for more vids 🙏
Awosome Goldfish Thank you Thank you. Lots of things we need to compile and learn together. Please help me if you have any questions and topics like me or the community to dig. Let’s make a difference together
Definitely follow and share your vids.
Outstanding! I just answered a question about Kirin color patterns today incorrectly and had to go back and correct it.
Thank you Gage. 👍
Thank you sir....we are learning so much from you!!!!
Appreciated JD.
I saw that chat in the Goldfish Council group. Glad you made this video! You have so much wonderful knowledge.
Thank you. Did you reply on Gary’s post? Trying to figure out if we came across each other
@@GoldfishCorner I didn't reply because I didn't have much knowledge on kirin coloring. My Facebook name is Jess d'Artagnan Love if you would like to connect there. I've been keeping goldfish since I was around 9 years old and I have a long term goal of breeding and selling pearlscales (not there yet mostly because I lack space in my townhome). facebook.com/jess.d.love
Very good information, you deserve way more subscribers, your channel is so progression!
Fish World Thank you my friend. Just checked out yours. Keep up the good work and let’s make a difference 👍
As always, very educational and insightful. Keep it up!
Thank you Billy!
thanks for sharing bro
Thank you Giobel! Pls feel free to share it with your friends
@@GoldfishCorner You're welcome, okay brother, sharing it to my fanpage giobel koi center by the way, can you please shout out me on your next video thanks
I am not big on koi. But I will mention your channel on my future video. Not the next one since I already made it, but will do for the one after next one, Buddy.
Great info there and super good efforts in Qilin goldfish Wowww a must see :D "D cheers
Thank you for friend 🇸🇬
Very helpful
Thank you 🥰✌️🤝
My pleasure 😊
I love kirin goldfish. My goldies are mostly kirin 😊
Congrats 🎉
Great job!! Thanks
Thank you for watching from 🇦🇷
@@GoldfishCorner hi. I like so much what you do about Goldfish culture. I wanna tell you in Argentina in the 60's the goberment free some wakins in the rivers of "Pampa húmeda ", the fertil area of the country. This fish was named "pampa" or "pampeano". This was made just for fishing... Now we lost this wakin in the will. I hope be usefull this information. Regards from Argentina
wow, informative, well done.
Thank you for stopping by 🇯🇲. I have not seen you here for a while. Stay safe! 👍
Thank you for the hard work you do keeping this such an informative channel. I have only just found you and have been enjoying all of the topics so far.
Welcome aboard! I wish I could have more time.... I have a long to-do list.
Very good !
Thanks a lot!
Hi again Lei,
Do you only have aquariums set ups or do you have ponds as well? Would like to see all your set up/fish
James, I don’t have any outdoor ponds. One of my dreams is to use wooden tub (木海) 45” diameter or more, the traditional Chinese way of goldfish keeping. Unfortunately, the shipping will cost my arms and legs. I am still working on it. Please let me know if you have any resources.
I have 2 kirin baby ranchus 🤫 The seller didn’t know, and sold em only as calico
@@ColossalSwordFormAndTechnique good deal! congrats!
Can you also explain the shogun term on goldfish?
Well, I’m learning that, too 😁
Hi GoldFish Corner,
I am an oranda and I wondering is it a kirin or not, I think she is a yellow center and black rim. Would you please give me some contact that I can send you its clips and picture.
Thank you so much for giving so much exactly knowledge about goldfish
goldfishcornermail@gmail.com
Sir Lei, may I ask how to make a solid kirin color? what color i should breed to end up having a kirin?
Hi Enzo, great question! The short answer is I don’t know. Lots of Kirin pattern is actually during the transition of goldfish colorization. For instance, if you see a goldfish Kirin scale (red and black), eventually it may become a red fish.
Ryukin history please
What is difference about CALICO AND KIRIN? im newbie
And watch this video th-cam.com/video/tPh3xs5xwm8/w-d-xo.html. You will know the difference. Could not explain better than these two videos.
I was convinced it can be only black and gold. Thank you for that, really informative. I need to rename my kirin ranchu to not-so-kirin ranchu now :D
Thank you for the feedback. All my videos are just for your reference not necessarily a standard 😅. Enjoy goldfish keeping!
@@GoldfishCorner I have just discovered your channel few days ago and find it very useful. Not knowing Chinese culture and language makes it hard to understand many issues (kirin is a good example). I will also link your channel in my newest video as you are the only one to provide good info on goldfish eye types.
Captain Chocolate Cake Thabk you, Caption. I wish my channel could be a channel to break the language barrier for many goldfish keepers. Enjoy goldfish keeping
Do Kirin hold their black or does it fade to red?
depends on the breed. normally, it would not hold long, and black turns to red
How to highback hump for ryukin sir
Lots of protein rich food, limited swimming space
@@GoldfishCorner I want to developed hump my ryukin, its depth water effect big hump sir
Nice vid! Now, what’s sakura goldfish? Lol
Sakura is type of half transparent scale or Nacreous scale. 🌸樱花鳞片, 软鳞🌸
Now I see why Goldfish remind me dragons... I wonder if it's possible to find this kind of pattern on a basic goldfish?
Chinese breeders call telescope as “Dragon Eye” 龙睛. That is the connection between Chinese dragon and goldfish
I will have to disagree with the photographs- the Oranda is red and White, my guess metallic and has a Deerspot feature. I find the deerspot a very structured way of coloring and does not fit with the Nacreous set. One Ranchu is blue and the other is black with a light base meaning it could fade out later in life. The Kirin color is family to Sakura and more closely to Calico. The three colors together are called Nacreous Scales. A fish is either that, Matte or metallic. The Kirin goldfish color is like Calico, but the black and blue is much denser and spread out, usually the two colors sharing a scale. The front half of the tail is dark, peduncle to middle. There are no sesame spots in this color, but windows or random pockets of patches exposing yellow, white and red. Like Calicos, Grade A Kirins have more red on the head. Most of the scales are double colored, but Kirins are more metallic than Calicos. Red and white goldfish are either metallic or Sakura.
Thank you for watching my video and taking your time in writing this
long comment. Enjoy the discussion with you😄. Depends on how you understand Kirin 🤔. Based on the goldfish naming convention, Kirin goldfish is named by Resemblance of the Chinese mythical creature Kirin ”麒麟”, which has two colors per scale. Any goldfish with consistent two-color per scale can be called Kirin or 麒麟斑. I have no problem with your theory on scale transparency and body color pattern. However, I am not sure how your fancy theories have anything to do with the creature of Kirin 麒麟. Goldfish naming is like an Open-Source programming. We are OK on whatever name you like to call as long as you provide us the culture/history backgrounds. As I mentioned in my video, my purpose is to provide history and culture backgrounds for goldfish names but not necessarily to build an ISO standards on goldfish naming. In my video, I provided the ancient book 《朱鱼谱》with clear definition of Kirin 麒麟, the ceramic plate and long shirt back in Qing dynasty to show the Kirin 麒麟 images, and the similarity to the goldfish. I am more interested in seeing any history and culture materials that you have to back up your theories.
@@GoldfishCorner I don't get to discuss about goldfish at this high a level as often as I would like, so I thank you! I really enjoy these goldfish videos. I appreciate you and your knowledge from far away. My theories come from studies, observations, and discussions from over the years at home or with other hobbyists. I learn things via facebook pages too. Here in The Netherlands they really suck at naming goldfish due to terrible translations and this is a topic I am keen about. Here at home I never use the confusing terms they use here. This encourages me to find different sources and information. With the love of goldfish i'm driven to know more about them.
As for this discussion: What boggles me is (after watching your show) just, what makes a Kirin a Kirin? This two- tone scaling is a very common sight in the Kirin color, I just think that not every fish with that feature should be called a Kirin (Nacreous), ONLY because their color is like the mythical creature. I always expect Kirin to be Calico- like in components, matte with an amout of mettalic scales as opposed to a fusion of any two random colors like the Lavender Ranchu shown. I see Kirin like the mythical creature in color, but don't see any relation to the other Nacreous family members (Calico, Sakura).
The fish in photography shows fish with a plain solid base or bi- coloured. The first Telescope is a more familiar sight of a true Kirin (Nacreous). The red and white coudn't be Kirin, because Nacreous scales with only red and white is called Sakura. What's shown is not Sakura, but metallic red and white with a fancy pattern. As diverse as Calico and Sakura can be per individual, there is a structure as to how many colors may be present. A black, blue and a different calico- like from the pictures look like they are not from the same type, only mythical type.
This is the first time I see deerspot included. I would like some more light shed on this coloring style, if you can provide any please. I don't have much knowledge about this pattern, but it's something seen often among metallic fish as well or when a fish is transforming from one color to another. Black to orange, orange to white. Tricolored fish have this alot, and this is a phase and not a fixed color. If Deerspot is an actual legit thing I would like to know more. I believe that every known color (whether it fades or not), has it's set of rules. Either it is one known color, or it is moving on the another color.
I think I discovered a new breed of goldfish can I show you it? It has a hinged mouth that when open has an hourglass shape. It’s tail fins are short. It is most similar to a standard fancy goldfish.
Can you show it on your channel, so I table a look at?
Yes I uploaded the video
Just commented below your video. 👍
I did some research. And the secret to breeding for Kirin color. Is 1.) Milk Cow Parent 2.) and Blue Metallic Scale, or Black Metallic Scale Parent ☝️ A secret kept by ranchu breeders
Ineed... What is kirin? 🤔🤨🙄😏
Let me know you what you get after your deep thought 😄
@@GoldfishCorner lol
Hey lei
Check email please
I emailed you.
Finally! I have been pulling my hair out arguing with a friend on what constitutes a kid in goldfish. Turns out we were both wrong as are many many online and bricks and mortar goldfish retailers/wholesalers. Leave it to you to set us straight on the matter Lei. How in the world did this all go so wrong? I had only the vaguest feeling that the explanation I received and the explosion of fish being sold under the appellation 'Kirin' were not the real version. I am so happy to 1. know that I was right - that what I was told and the huge number of fish being sold as 'kirin' where not correct and 2. even more happy to discover what a true Kirin colour pattern was and its historical origins. Thank you Lei.
Of course this has fired up my mind again so I do have a couple of questions so I'll try to be brief (I don't think that is even possible but here goes...).
With such a strong connection to a Chinese mythological creature such as the Kirin and with such detailed and readily available historical breeding/sales records and data of kirin goldfish how have so many modern breeders, retailers and hobbiests become so confused as to what a real Kirin goldfish should look like? Especially, given the strong cultural significance and easily referenced data from some of the more significant historical breeders in China; this should have been clear ... but it isn't.
A few years ago a friend purchased a beautiful butterfly telescope goldfish and was told it was a Kirin version of the breed. The fish was stunning to my mind and reasonably priced at $150 and purchased from a very respected retailer whose fish are sourced from Chinese breeders and even he or they were wrong. The retailer and I both were under the impression that the Kirin patterned goldfish was a calico goldfish that lacked the blue in its colouration - the fish that my friend purchased had nacreaous and metallic scales and not a trace of the blue colour you would find in calico goldfish. We even found photographic references on the internet depicting Kirin pattern butterfly telescopes that significantly matched the very one my friend had purchased. What I find to be so funny and frustrating at the same time is that over the intervening years even this definition has also shifted and that so many fish are being sold as having the Kirin colouration that it seems now to just a trendy word without real meaning like calling something Kleenex or Xeroxed when what you bought was just plain old facial tissue or had a document photocopied. At some point the goldfish authorities of the world had arrived at breed standards ... and for the most part these standards are adhered to by breeders and retailers or a least loosely followed. Most goldfish experts and lay hobbiest alike would agree on what an. 'oranda' was if shown 3 pictures - one a bubble eye, another a common goldfish and the other some variety of oranda. The experts might quibble a bit on what kind of oranda it was or argue on how well it conformed to a standard particular oranda but they at least would agree on which picture within some level of certainty +- a relatively low margin of error was the oranda. This consensus on what constitutes a particular breed for the commonly available goldfish types or varieties, I assume, didn't just happen; did it? I have mentioned this before but I think that there has hot to be more than just me whose frustrated by how 'wild west and cowboy' the goldfish world is becoming. It seems that everday onother retailer or breeder is making up names for a particular offering. In the oranda world the popular and once highly prized thai orandas being sold with their orchid, rose or peony tails have had their descriptions hijaked by any number of breeders or retailers that have any type of mutt goldfish with head growth and a dorsal fin as a Thai Oranda with just about any tail type but for having a flowing flower-typed tail. It's so bad that many are sold that don't even conform to the body type that Thai orandas had become known for possessing and the sad thing is no one seems to care. Why go to the considerable time and effort of bringing a breed to market have them garner top prices only only to have either poor quality examples or fish that should have been culled or just plain fakes to take over the market and drive the price of real quality specimens down and making the development of new breeds or the maintenance of existing varieties too expensive to be profitable. There needs to be some incentive for the industry to innovate and protect what they create and to have the words we use to market the fish we have actually hold meaning so that their use does become synonymous with a particular fish.
For other domesticated animals: cats, dogs, cattle etc. we have breeds and domesticated plants: daylily, tulips, dogwoods, potatoes, tomatos etc. have cultivars (cultivated varieties) and in some cases these breeds and cultivars are actually patented by the creator/breeder. These varieties and even pattents are all subject to rules, governing bodies, registration requirements etc.. All of which were arrived at through consensus by a particular group or in the case of patented varieties gives where a unique genetic profiles are scientifically determined and where changes are needed and when new varieties or breeds arise or colour variants of breed fall out of favour or new ones created in existing breeds everything gets decided on collectively usually at a convention of internationally or nationally recognised associations or panels of experts.
For instance breeders petition the Westminster Kennel Club to have a new breed or colour variatiant recognised and there are rules that must be adhered to with new breeds beings shown only in open categories before they are are recognised as a new true breed or colour variation. Existing breeds on occasion become delisted or colour variation removed from the standard all based on recognised rules and regulations. My impression that for dogs and cats this is true for Europe as well as Asian, South American and Australian bodies as well. Yes, there are differences between the various regions and governing bodies as to what is recognised with regard to whether a particular breed is recognised or not but I would say that a Great Dane with brindle colouration would could be identified by any canine breed expert or average dog lover at a dog show anywhere around the world or that any person walking in a dog part either in France or Osaka with even passing knowledge of dogs could identify the golden retriever in the group.
Yet for an animal that has been domesticated for over 2000 years and has become so closely associated with the cultural heritage of 2 of the world's most significant and populated countries on the planet to the point of being synonymous with both (China and Japan), the goldfish has no real governing body or group of bodies that controls what gets accepted as a breed/type or variety. Pigeons have more internationally recognised rules governing them than goldfish do. In light of that and the fact that on any given day a goldfish is sold somewhere in the world at auction or even in a store in excess of $2000 USD by someone with more money to burn than I - isn't it time that some of the key breeders, experts both academic and lay and significant association or bodies were brought together either virtually or when fear of Coronavirus infection abates and meet face to face at a conference and hammers out a set of over all guiding principles of what constitutes the major true breeds, what the acceptably recognised mutations that will be officially humanely introduced or maintained for trade when breeding, what various colour patterns are and what breeds should carry them etc with mechanisms in place that outlines how existing breeds can be marketed, how breeders going forward can introduce new breeds or variants can be brought to market and sold and how those new breeds can be protected so that the originator can protect their investment from unscrupulous retaiers or breeders that want to cash in on a cash cow or take advantage of a new trend. Exceptions of couse should be made for historical breeds for instance I don't think the Ryukin should be protected by something akin to a patent. But rather that grandfathered breeds like the Ryukin or Celestial become the foundation stock of all new breeds to come without royalties etc being paid to a developer/breeder or organisation.
Breed developers need to be able to protect their intellectual and genetic property. I know that currently in China the concept of intellectual property has a hard time being recognised politically but for a nationally significant industry worth millions if not hundreds of millions of $ and that the industry is based on a creature that is held at such high esteem and pride that it is in no small part at the heart of the cultural identity of China that industry regulations or guidelines such as those should at least floated to the industry as something that should be officially encouraged especially if many of the Chinese breeders that fall in line and voluntarily adopt the guidelines could made to see that the way of making money under these guidelines is to become official suppliers of a particular official breed etc encouraging acceptance and adherence coyld also be seen as way of protecting the national brand or could be made more palitible by becoming part of the current regulatory framework in place over for agricultural or environmental policy or set of rules.
Other industries dealing in the trade of livestock and fruit/veg/trees and garden and cut flowers have made it work, including China created examples. I really can't see this as that big a sale. Just think if a set of rules had been in place when the butterfly telescope was perfected and the breeder or group of breeders in the area of China it orinated applied for breed recognition, satisfied the rules and demonstrated breed stability and created the standard for the breed and then under that framework that region or breeder was compensated for each an every butterfly telescope sold around the world at some rate, annually adjused for inflation and protected from infringement for 50 years and that under that protection for 100 years any newly introduced and recognised breed where one of the parents or grandparents used to create the new breed was a butterfly telescope also resulted in some form of compensation under that framework? Regardless of the system of royalties/compensation that is a significant chunk of money even under something less stringent like set of guidelines or legal framework and it is a huge incentive to continue to innovate for and develop future new breeds. Under such a system a market for eggs and milt would surely develop for highly prized AAA Best in Show specimens that could be stored for decades to come and sold internationally in developing new and exciting breeds and further compensate the original developer of the breed.
If a prized specimen can be sold for $2000 USD or more on any given day without anything in place guarrenteeing parentage or records of bloodlines or anything for else that matter other than the expert eye of the rich goldfish enthusiest who purchase said fish then there has to be some appetite in the industry to see that not just a specimen garners such prices but that the breed as well is protected in such a way as to produce a modest and reliably steady income stream for a particular period time for various grades of quality for that breed's creater and the officially authorised breeding farm(s) for the breed and that even at the lower end of that royalty framework everday consumers can be confident that the Kirin Ryukin with the peony tail that they bought is true to its label even extremely low pet grade price of 45 dollars. (Yes, I know Lei, that wasn't in anyway shape or form brief but what it lacks in brevity in more than makes up for in passion) 😀
Thank you for taking time to write this paper. Let me digest and get it back to you. Your insightful comments / questions really make me rethink lots of things and more hungry on goldfish knowledge. I wish I could meet you in person someday. Not only to shake hands but to LEARN from you. Thank you 🙏
First I wish I had your name. Several reasons of miss-used goldfish terms. First, less references in English. There are tons of goldfish breeding books in English. However, how many English goldfish books are available talking about breeds and origins. There several good ancient Chinese goldfish books gave clear definitions on breed attributes and origins, but there are no translated version. One of my goals of my channel is to introduce these definitions to the global community. In fact, I am translating the book that I mentioned in this Vid 《朱鱼谱》published in 1720. The books gave the definitions of 56 goldfish breeds. It will help out the miss-used the goldfish terms. Think about it. If you and your friends saw my Kirin video, then he/she will not be fooled by the seller. At least have some discussion to clarify/negotiate, instead of following the seller’s words. The second is that goldfish have constant changes and new terms pop up. Even old terms got extended meaning. For instance, I followed the old definition of Kirin. I heard from some of Chinese breeders that they tend to use Kirin more with Calico goldfish plus each scale with light rim.
I agreed with you to solve this confusing goldfish terms is to establish some international standards and grades like ISO900, etc. I believe that we need to do this in two steps. Step one is to promote goldfish knowledges the generals audience about different terms/origins. Step two, we need to have a global committee to lead this effort with experts from all around the world, not from China, Japan, Thailand, but also US, Spain and other countries.
@@GoldfishCorner HI Lei, of course how stupid and rude of me. My name is Bruce Doucette. Please call me Bruce.
@@GoldfishCorner I like the sound of that approach and I agree with you that ultimately if an endeavour for such a creating a system or regulatory framework would need to happen in phases and it should engage all stakeholders from the entire spectrum of the goldfish world. Your point regarding education and outreach is extremely important especially for creating a common understanding of key the concepts among experts and lay hobbyists and even our younger pet owners who needs information to care for a pair of fantails and for engendering trust between and common purpose and buy-in of oll key agents so the other phases can be completed. It's important that this knowledge becomes the foundation and that we look to it as the common story or first chapter in book that has yet to be written and may hopefully never be finished.
I'm excited to hear about your translation efforts of some key historical reference materials. It's the kind of projects that I see as being key to creating that common base foundation level we both agree as an important step the grand framework. It would be impossible for something as all encompassing as this framework would hopefully become if the various cultures both western and eastern (far and near) stakeholders all tried to participate and contribute to the project from a knowledge base that was just their own. We could never achieve it and it would be doomed to fail. All perspectives need to be understood. It creates a level of comfort, trust and respect when we are able to see and know what others in the past and present have done. Its only out of that kind of truly collaborative and critical review environment can all the knowledge to date can brought out to build a common basis of understanding and its that kind of environment that becomes easily replicated when the need build on that common foundation inevitably arises in response to innovation and new ways of understanding or new points of view needed to be considered.
I like were both of our minds are going with this and its my hope that by working together maybe we can convince others the value in this possible future goldfish world view. To that end please feel free to contact me I enjoy our discussions and hope perhaps one day to have one together in person ... perhaps over tea, coffee or beer 😀 brucedoucette.67@gmail.com