No such thing as a men’s league, it’s all open. NBA,mlb,nhl, ufc allow females to play in these leagues if they are good enough. Decades ago an nhl team had a female goalie.
What hes forgetting is that its not just hormone levels..men and women have different muscle fibers, hip angles and dozen of other physiological defferences. The number of possible spectra is likely in the hundreds if you wanted to make it really fair.
That's why testosterone-level classes wouldn't level the playing field. It's not like if my testosterone was at the same level as a woman's than it'd be competitive. I have stronger bone density, larger lung capacity, among other advantages.
Fair comment. Some people seriously get triggered by this topic and just parrot whatever their favorite political commentator thinks. It’s nice to see people making valid points like this one and having a real discussion vs. “No you’re wrong and have no credibility.”
3:40 Neil was saying that ENTRANCE to the school was separated to boys and girls entrances but Bill was thinking that Neil was talking about BATHROOMS. Separating school entrance for boys and girls is indeed wierd.
@@stickman1742 Probably dates back to the time when people were at war in Western countries. Still there is a gender specific requirement for drafts in times of war though that somehow hasn't been modernised.
I totally get the spectrum,it’s based on the way the individual feels and they have the right to feel anyway they want. However at some point the fact there are only 2 biological sexes matters with certain things, like sports. We can’t present biology is on a spectrum so we gotta be sure to differentiate between feelings and biology. Biological men in biological women’s bathrooms or biological women’s sports is not right.
Sports, yes, 100% fact shouldn't be there. Bathrooms are more fuzzy, though. I mean, one of the problems is that genuine innocent trans people have to deal with predators taking advantage for their own gain and making their position harder to argue. And the other problem is that the state of transition itself for any given trans person is practically a spectrum as well. You have trans women who look like men in wigs; and then you have trans women who genuinely are almost indistinguishable from biological women unless you look hard enough. The former would definitely make a lot of women very uncomfortable in the restrooms; the latter probably wouldn't even be noticed. That's a problem that I don't think is going to be solved anytime soon. And someone might say, well, hey, just make all restrooms unisex; mmm, a LOT of people would hate that and it would create its own problems.. I mean, are we really going to force women and girls into the same restrooms as men just to satisfy ~0.5% of the population? So maybe someone might rebut, alright then, just make a third unisex bathroom for all trans or non-binary people or w/e. Well, that also has its own problems... imagine the construction and space costs of every building now needing a third restroom. It's just a big fat issue. I personally think the most reasonable solution is to handle it on a case-by-case basis (is that what we're already doing as a society? I'm honestly not sure). If enough people complain about a certain somebody making others uncomfortable in a restroom, maybe because they haven't transitioned enough or they're being weird, then bar them from entering it and make them use the other restroom. On the other hand, if no one even notices one trans woman entering and no one complains, then it's very probably not doing any harm and so just let it be. It's not ideal and has its own complications, but imo it beats the alternatives. Maybe when trans individuals reach a larger share of the population, we can more seriously consider other alternatives.
A good response to NgT's insane solution would be "Okay. Then since there are people who believe the earth is flat, let's change the science books to include that as a possibility so we don't offend those flat earthers."
@@Rocketman0013 sort of. MAGA is its own problem but this gender stuff feels like we’ve left reality. Both sides have gone batshit and that’s not a comforting thought.
Yep. You can change your current soup of hormones all you want, but if you've already developed male-typical bone structure, for example, that ain't going anywhere. I don't understand why people are pretending gender and sex are more complicated than it actually is. It's one of the basic, simple things that we instinctively understand as infants. We know a man when we see one, we know a woman when we see one. And we sure as shit learn very quickly which one physically dominates, and it isn't even close.
@@jackworthington5205 Could we not just account for that and redesign the game to fit whatever we wanted? I'm not saying that's a good idea. I'm just saying we can launch people to the moon, we could figure out how to design a game for both sexes if we cared to.
Reminds me of that one line from Oppenheimer that said something along the lines of “scientists might be the smartest people but not necessarily the wisest.”
So true someone I so highly admired is so brutally flawed and so easily manipulated by social media. He’s terrified of being canceled yet he keeps canceling himself. He’s literally turning himself into the anti-hero and now he’s running with it instead of backing down learning that he was wrong. He’s standing in front of the door and moving a bookcase in front of it refusing to acknowledge the fact that you can see it in his face. His argument is trash, and then he uses the race card for his last Mary, hoping that you feel you will be canceled if you argue against it he’s terrified because now he has one group holding him in one political view, and the other one is biting at his knees telling him he’s wrong, and he can never be wrong. He’s too smart for that so he tries to out you. I’ll control the conversation or flat out. Call you a racist, he’s lost all credibility. He’s no longer the person I respected the person I admired, and the person I look forward to listening to he’s just a shell of himself who now I disregard as a crazy leftist, which is really upsetting to even think about, but Joe Rogan called this out years ago, and unfortunately he was right and I really didn’t think he was at the time
@@Joeyyyyyyyyy1987the amount of males who will dress as girls just to play sports so they can cheat is just zero. The reason this is even a topic is so that bigots can express their hatred at anyone who doesn't see the world as they do.
@@JohnCampeaspoop show me a man who is soooo desperate to win at a sport that they dress as a girl, and you will be looking at someone that absolutely nobody can have respect for. Lots of girls have tons of testosterone, and regularly play in boys sports. Ya, I went out with a girl who pitched for the varsity baseball team in high school. Did she do it because she hates god? No, it was because she was that good.
@@SobridMusicit’s not bills field either, the difference is one of them has learned the scientific method and spent their entire life dedicated to learning the objective truth in the universe and the other is some old comedian who wants to pretend he knows everything when really thinking you know anything is a fallacy
@@MarshMellow12 except the scientific method can't be applied to gender expression as there are no constants in his delusional belief of gender fluidity outside of the binary.
Yes, but then the counter argument would be, "Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt have differing anatomy compared to their peers". Then someone responds with, "The physiological difference is dictated by the potential of the XY/XX chromosome."
Honestly, Neil DeGrasse Tyson was Thinking. Actually thinking, and doing so out of the box. We talk about 'The Conversation' but it seems most people you meet are lowkey conservative and just don't want to question anything they've grown to learn. Being able to think outside of the box is a starting point to re-evaluate your principles and rules to see if they still make sense. It baffles me that people will insult him for doing this, yet think they are somehow open minded. Bill Maher ISN'T thinking out of the box. He is drawing absolute lines in the sand: Men vs. Women. And why? Because that's how it's always been. HOW - is - that- a progressive position? That's flat out conservatism.
"...to see if they still make sense. " Yes, but Neil isn't really seeing what makes sense. He is trying to make it make sense. That's the difference. See many already have the conclusion in mind and are just trying to get there. Also there are so many other differences between males and females that to make it absolutely fair you would have to measure so many things before you start pitting them against each other in certain sports. I believe also in the end most transpeople wouldn't even want sports split into all those categories.
Even sports have evolved. Women were not always allowed to play the same sports as men. So, what’s so radical with the idea of having sports not be segregated by gender?
Neil raises good points and argues them better than most people holding his position. I wish Bill would have actually engaged with the arguments rather than laughing them off. Neil is trying to have a conversation, Bill isn't. Whatever side of the issue you fall on, I wish we could at least have the conversation.
He is so out of his depth here. The difference between men and women is not just hormones. Did you know men have higher bone density, faster reaction times, over 60% more upper body strength, different shaped hips for running etc.etc.etc.?
@@Democracy_Manifest And, how many of those are crucial in strategic sports? Why are a good chunk of e-sports players women? Perhaps the problem isn't that men have the advantage in sports. Perhaps the problem is we designed sports with men in mind.
@MrBrock314 No its the simple fact that males have the advantage in strength, size, speed and power. Along with coordination, reaction time etc. Virtually any physical pursuits are going to incorporate those aspects in some form or another.
He thinks he knows more about biology than Richard Dawkins and Dawkins would never claim to know more about Astrophysics than an Astrophysicist De Ass Tyson thinks he's smarter than he is and boys and girls had separate entrances because they were taught in separate classrooms boys and girls were taught that way and actually there's been debate that kids learned better that way, but he's using the race card fountain analogy to try get one up on the white supremacists Bill Mayer🤯
Well, perhaps the categories should be the same as in games? Just think about it. It makes sense to match people with other people with similar performance. I.e you keep a permanent ledger of past matches and performance of every athlete who competes on a professional level. Then, you split them into groups similar to how its done in games....bronze, silver, gold, platinum ,diamond. Bronze tier athletes match with other bronze athletes. If you want to move up in rankings, you need to defeat a certain number of higher ranking athletes. Heavy weights will inevitably move up to highest ranks, fly weights will move to lower ranks and if it happens so that some fly weight can defeat a few heavy weights, then they can move up to that category, regardless of their weight or size. This way, your opponents are determined by your performance, not by your physical attributes.
@@MrBrock314 Yup, but the only downside is that currently, in sports, all gold medals are equal, i.e flyweight boxing gold medal is equal to heavy weight boxing medal, so both matches would be gold-medal matches and thus would draw alot of attention, where as in e-sports style matchmaking, flyweight gold would be at best "silver rank" and heavy weights would be in some kind of "global elite" rank...and then , people wouldnt be that much interseted in silver rank matches anymore. The upside however would be that this kind of matchmaking could be blended with the sports of casual people and therefore people would feel more connected to the sports. I.e silver rank would be the begining of what is considered "professional sports" but before that, you would have "bronze rank" that would represent highschool sports teams and various other hobby sports clubs. And before bronze ranks, you could have some even lower rank groups, that connect all the way down to elementary schools.
Li Wenwen is a female weightlifter. She weighs 331 lb. Her record is: snatch 327 lb and clean & jerk 415 lb. Naim Suleimanoglou was a weightlifter. He weighted 135 lb. He record is snatch: 336 lb and clean & jerk 422 lb. She ought weighs him by by 200 lb.
Not relevant. Neil is saying that we already categorize sports in ways outside of perceived gender so theoretically, there could be a way to reasonably do so while including trans people. Bills argument is based on tradition, not logic.
You said it yourself. They perceive it differently. They have a belief. Because no matter the culture, people have either male genitalia or female genitalia
2:46 That is something very different, because there is no difference between the physical capabilities of dark-skinned people and a light-skinned people, but there is a big difference between the physical capabilities of men and women.
There are bound to be biological differences within groups (including ethnic differences). It’s possible that genes from Caribbean ethnic groups give an advantage to sprinters, for example. But these are much smaller differences than the differences between male and female.
I think Neil had that cancellation scare a few years ago for some sexual assault thing. Now he's gone SUPER woke to signal he's "one of the good guys" and to protect himself from the mob.
A lot of the reasons people go super woke on these current debates is indeed that: fear of cancellation. To be cancelled is is to be marked with a scarlet letter.
@@Bito292 What do you call it when you lose your job and all of your lined up gigs because someone doesn't want to be associated with you for fear of the backlash? That hasn't happened a lot recently?
@@Bito292 Cancellation deniers are about as on-point as climate deniers. Both quacks. Is the problem as severe as some people think it is? No. Is it a problem? Yes, definitely for some people.
@@kasetoast8354everyone in this comment section acting like they’re a professional mf scientist because Neil acknowledges and respects trans people 😭 LMFAOO
Its honestly wild that there are transphobes who still manage to gaslight themselves into thinking that any scientific fields support their views with all the research nowdays
Tyson should have been corrected Immediately. Hormones are NOT what determines the production of sperm and eggs. Genetics does, either XX or XY. The ability to generate eggs or sperm is determined at conception. All the eggs a female will produce in her lifetime is already created during gestation and present at birth. At puberty, hormones complete the development of secondary sex characteristics which can result in fertilization of eggs with sperm. In Trans individuals on hormones, female hormones don't create eggs - they destroy the reproductive capacity of males. Testosterone destroys the reproductive capacity of females. In the opposite sex Hormones Sterilize The Opposite Sex, not create it. That should have been the end of this ridiculous argument.
Both hormones and sex fall under genetics. We are already understanding the fundamentals of a system where there is less duality and far more complexity. The hard thing will be proving it to the ideologues and pseudo science freaks.
He didnt imply that at all, he asked the question whats the important difference between male and female and Bill couldnt engage with the question without pearl clutching.
This is much easier issue to solve than everyone is making it! - So… Sex & gender are not the same things? Okay. Well we don’t segregate different sports leagues, based on gender roles. It’s based on sex. You can be entirely accepting of people’s GENDER & still separate sports into male/female, based on *SEX*
"Expression" doesn't make you that thing. I like to wear all black...good luck if I decided that I'm now black. Dressing and acting like a woman...does not a woman make.
His points are so ridiculous. People identify sex by secondary sex characteristics mainly. Men and women are different in almost every way. Different facial shape, skin, hair, body hair, body shape, muscle mass, bone density, height, hand size, everything. They've even discovered gay men have different faces, and can be scanned to predict homosexuality with very high accuracy.
Neil is just sparring and challenging Bill’s narrow approach towards a subject. It doesn’t mean Neil won’t end up agreeing with him or not. Bill says: women should compete women, and men should compete men. Neil is just trying to point out it’s not that black/white and he’s right. The fact that he mentions hormone levels as a random starting point is just him saying: there are more factors than just sex that determine the outcome of a matchup. If a scientist is asked for an opinion on a subject he hasn’t really studied yet, he’ll try to find ANY meaningful starting point which won’t determine the outcome of his study at all. This is what Bill doesn’t understand. He approaches the problem scientifically, Bill doesn’t. Now if Neil was asked to turn this into a scientific study, he would most likely not end up saying: trans women can compete against biological women just fine, in any sport. But in some sports they can. Again, it’s not black/white. Having higher testosterone levels is definitely an advantage, it’s natural, but is it fair? Is being 7ft tall vs 5ft fair when playing basketball 1:1? Automatically assuming trans women can compete against biological women in any sport is wrong, but assuming the opposite is also wrong. That’s what Neil is trying to say, but Bill just keeps ridiculing and interrupting him. Who knows, maybe Neil’s study will produce evidence that East Africans are genetically better equipped than West Africans for long distance running and that West Africans are better equipped for short distances and shouldn’t compete against each other anymore bc it’s not a fair competition. Looking at the results of any major athletics event in the past century would probably show this to be true. But would this now be racist for him (or me) to say this or scientific? You don’t know unless you examine this scientifically. In the Shapiro interview Neil said that research like this can be very dangerous. I think he’s right. So, tough subject indeed.
In science, we measure data, and we build models to account for as much of it as possible. If we find data that contradicts the model, we need a new model. Intersex people exist, therefore data defies the binary model, so we need to adopt a new one. It's not like the binary sex idea is an inherent given either- plenty of other organisms reproduce in other ways. You like science? Dig human rights? Yeah? Realize that we're still learning about ourselves, realize that our models can be utterly wrong. Go meet a trans person. Find out. Live a little. Don't let your personal ick decide your views, only to pretend that it was logic that got you there.
So here’s the thing, I understand what you’re saying and I also like your polite and kind approach to arguing your point. I would counter with this though- truly intersex people do not exist in humans. There has never in history been a case of two fully functioning sexual organs. Secondly, yes other creatures reproduce in other ways, but we are discussing humans here. Let me just close with this though- I do know trans people. I respect them and call them by the pronouns they wish to be called. I have a close coworker who is genuinely one of the nicest people I work with. I cannot say a bad word about them. However, I am a genealogist as a side gig. I study DNA among other things and there are differences in male and female at a genetic level that no hormone therapy or surgeries can overcome. I’m struggling w this right now with a client because she wants to trace her paternal ancestry and women do not inherit y-chromosomes from their fathers. I can only do an autosomal DNA test for her. No amount of her calling herself a man would change her genetics.
This is nonsense. Every person on earth with an intersex DSD is male or female. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, so don't try to pass it off as science.
I know and love trans people. They don’t belong in female sports. Has nothing to do with “ick” and everything to do with biology. You as a male should stop mansplaining female rights. It’s not cute!
"other organisms do it" and? Sex is a binary. Cope harder. Even the intersex mutation winds up either being male or female. The exception to the rule doesnt change the rule.
@@toddshockleyDenying basic, obvious, provable scientific facts is stupid. Especially for a scientist. Just like thinking your every opinion has to conform to your chosen political side even when your side spouts total nonsense.
My Grandad used to say "educated beyond their intelligence". Not to say Neil isn't smart though. He's very smart, and I'm sure knows the true answer to the question at hand, he just refuses to admit scientific fact when it flies in the face of his political views.
@@ranndino The point here is yes, there are scientific facts. Sex is scientific, gender is not. It is language and culture that makes the connection from male -> man and female -> woman. "Man" and "woman" are socially constructed and not real. (Not all animals that split into male and female sort themselves into men and women, or anything similar). You can say the same for things like money, democracy, law, religion - not real, collective "tools" that may or may not have value (more value for some people, less value for others). Gender has more to do with culture, tradition and fashion that it does with science. In other words, it has been created. What you seem to be saying is you shouldn't be allowed to be *creative* with something that has been *created.* So the question then becomes, why? Why is everyone required to buy into something that has been made up? And might not necessarily suit their interests? PLUS science is not something you are required to obey.
“I’ve spent more time thinking about this than you think.” That’s great. I spend more time thinking about women than anyone on the planet. It doesn’t mean I know fucking anything about women.
And if gender is a spectrum, who decides. Do i declare i am the manliest man in the universe, and everybody has to agree, even if it turns out om afraid of heights, and run away from danger. Or is it the school bully who decides, even when i am at pains to say im not the wimp he says i am, as i can beat him in a race, etc. is it doctors, using some chart that a lgbt charity decide, and they choose our place in it. And whats silliest if all, is some men, are bigger, tougher and better at sports than me, much more aggressive , and machi but identify as women, i mean would they be put where on the spectrum compared to me. No, its a utterly uncogent, contradictory idealogy, that any free thinking person should be allowed to disagree with.
And the craziest thing if all,ball these definitions of where you are on the spectrum can only be based on biological sex anyway, as in what characteristics are more likely to occur in females etc. the gender critical view makes more sense. I am a man, but I could have poor beard growing abilities, or good beard growing abilities, a desire to be a ballet star, or in the sas, a love of cars, or a love of handbags, I'm just as much a man either way, and should be accepted either way, but this pointless gender stereotype idealogy that defines you as needing to go on a useless, gender spectrum is shjt.
No one has to decide? We can decide together? Also, yeah, you can say that you are completely to one side of the spectrum, if you believe that is true for you. But why are you defining gender by inherently postitive or negative traits rather than just neutral quirks and cultural similarities? You're trying to accept the new theory of gender and its distinction from sexe whilst still using the old, rigid, and frankly quite toxic definitions of it. And you can say that being transphobic makes more sense if you want, but you have to actually reckon with the fact that it goes against all modern scientific understanding of the subject. You have provided no substance to back up that claim.
What distincts a man from a woman is his heart and lung capacity, his bone density, his muscles and etc that are because of hormones but NOT JUST HORMONES. Hormone is not sufficient to be the basis for categories in sports. You are a man of science you are not supposed to overlook these obvious facts.
that's right--he is a man of science. you are not. you do not know anything he does not. and if he does not agree with you, then you are, by definition, wrong.
@@BrianR. This episode highlighted the fact that you being incredibly gifted in intelligence doesn't make you impervious to being ignorant. It's like a brain surgeon who doesn't know how to change a flat tire. Still a fan of Neil, but dude stepping out of his field hasn't been a good look for him. I thought Neil believing nuclear war and its fallout isn't a big deal was odd.
Neil deGrasse Tyson should just go work for Black Lives Matter at this point all he did in this interview, was trying to cancel anything bill through him by calling him a racist he’s lost all my respect the little bit. He had left is now in the toilet, and I flushed it on a pile of shit that is matter and matter-of-fact. I flushed it and it’s gone just like my respect for Neil are used to look up to him now he doesn’t exist
@@Joeyyyyyyyyy1987 That's a very binary look at the world and at people. People are generally complicated and they're reasonable about some things and completely unreasonable about others. You can see the most fact-based person in the world who goes home and talks about love lasting for eternity even though that's false from an evidence-based perspective. You can see people highly dependent on their emotions who can follow logical steps like they were a toddler's reading book. People can do both.
Unless the "hormone cocktail" has been there since birth, I will keep my skepticism. I grew up with testosterone, which has given me 191cm (6'3") frame, wide shoulders and a lot of body hair. Changing cocktails wouldn't take these away from me and I would be absolutely scary to anybody on a women's team that hypothetically would have to face me. Should we respect those who don't fall neatly into the "binary"? Sure. Should we scrap all the rules and rewrite sports and society to accommodate?
Thats why neil is saying to go by weight n hormone classes. If you identity as a women u still wouldnt be able to competr cuz other women would not be in ur weight n hormone class. Think u fool
Apparently he has since his understanding of the neurochemistry of gender identity far surpasses that of Bill Maher... Maher doesn't even know the difference between sex and gender; two concepts studied in two seperate branches of biology. Too bad Neil didn't call him out on that error too.
@@ranndino "rational people." Your friends and parents are not all people that exist. I hope, you know that?! And secondlly its a very dumb statement to call somebody like Tyson not rational person.
NDT is right.. we don't know much about gender. So study it. It may or may not be scientific it maybe psychology or sociology.. learn about it n think about it..
lol Neil is so off base here. Male and female goes way beyond just hormones. How about bone structure and density? It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that.
@@MS-tz1mlmale would still have serval advantages. Cardio. speed, power. Punch resilience.. If you really think a female can beat peak Usain bolt if they take test, Jesus Christ you are beyond help.
If you go through a male puberty you will have more advantage over biological women, however starting your transition at like 18 etc and being on it for a while you will definitely not be able to compete with men. Neil makes a good point with the hormones talking about how people now think that just because a biological woman has different hormones that makes her a man, but hes off when it comes to hormones being the only factor in sports.
Bill is only half paying attention. Neil mentioned that the school had separate doors to enter the building for boys and girls, and Bill defends that by saying they pee differently? What does that have to do with with which door you enter the school from? Bill isn't interesting in actually understanding the other viewpoint, he's listening for details he can argue with. Nothing more. And then he says he's worried about the health of the people taking hormones, while smoking. Yeah, I can tell he's real concerned about the health consequences.
and he says he is a "classic liberal" but when people decide about what is best for them and their health he want's to stop them because he knows best what's good for them
They're both drunk as fuck, Neil also didn't catch Bill mentioning how they pee differently but they both understood the point. Doesn't discredit the argument one bit. Smoking and taking hormones is very, very different. One of them might cause cancer (15-20% chance) while the other one will mutilate a child in ways that should be banned by the geneva convention. You tell me which is which
@@jonathanh6030Underground hormone markets are a thing and a growing industry, people will vouch for them like their life depended on them. It's people like Bill who slow down the madness a lil bit. No, taking hormones for treating "gender dysphoria" is not good for you.
he is great at his field of work. The problem is when we "assume" that just because someone excels in one area he/she/it has credibility in other area. Sure, as an inteligent person he is interesting to listen to, but outside his expertise area, I´d take what he says with a grain of salt.
@@supersueca1 It kinda reminds me of 2 times Nobel Price winner Linus Pauling who, at age 65, started propagating pseudoscientific nonsense about Vitamin C, claiming it could prevent and heal anything from colds to cancer. I wouldn’t put deGrasse Tyson in a group with anti vaccine people tho, because they’re usually telling their unscientific bs with malicious intent.
Anti science... Like every male is born exactly like every other male. Some have tiny bones, and some girls are muscular and hairy, with more testosterone than Bill and Neil combined. There are literally million people who were born with different portions of both male and female reproductive organs, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that being born with a biologically male centered brain and female organs between their legs should be considered normal. It is science that proves that everyone on the spectrum is normal. It's the massive lack of education, and the desperation of people in power that want to stay in power, that have the most vulnerable people on earth as targets for the most ignorant as a way of hiding what is actually going on.
@@hair4571 speaking of politics, lol, it's like politicians taking money from corporations to convince the ignorant masses to ignore science, and just expect less and less out of life, because the rich have it so hard... Kinda like how evangelicals try to use the bible, even though they have never read a single page of the book...
I could walk into a national female powerlifting competition tomorrow and win with 25%+ to spare without training for it. I'm strong compared to gen pop, but would get absolutely obliterated in a men's competition for my weight class.
So confident are we? There are many such examples of arrogant people like you being completely outmatched in pursuit of similarly hubris moments. You think you’re that much stronger than the trained athletes? Get over your ego holy shit. Meanwhile, have you any concept of the muscle mass changes that hormones thus would influence on your untrained body?
I agree 100% with Neil. Weight categories work for fighting. Just create more categories and get it over with. We have a housing crisis, inflation and we are obsessing about gender... both the left and the right.
A woman with an abnormally high testosterone level or with intersex characteristics is not even remotely comparable to someone who lived their entire life as a man and then took some hormones and/or got some surgery. The playing field in sports is never fair. But the idea is that we equalize it to the point where everyone has a fighting chance. Trans athletes, especially in strength sports, literally sh*t all over that equalized playing field. Your natural gifts and genetics are supposed to be an advantage, not a giant trump card. I really wish we could drop the morals and politics surrounding this and talk about the medical realities of introducing testosterone into a biologically female system/estrogen to a male system. Not to mention the RECORDED statistics in roughly 100 years of documented competitive sport and 50+ years of female competition that paints a picture so unbelievably clear that it could easily be utilized as the evidence of the immorality of this belief system. I can sympathize with the reality of young trans kids feeling excluded and ostracized from sports and the ethical turmoil that can create (though I’d argue it’s a parent’s job to teach their trans child that they’re not in Kansas anymore). BUT I have zero patience for pretending we need to “respect the rights” of a grown man who decides he wants to dominate the female competition in the sport he never succeeded at playing with his true counterparts. I actually find it abhorrently anti-woman to the purest degree.
The 100m world record sprint is set at 10.49 by Florence GRIFFITH-JOYNER. I would like to see you with your gonads and phallus born a man with all the advantages that you so state that you have beat that record. And if you can post it up here so we can see that would be great
As a man.... If I'm a boxer and I have unusually high testosterone... Then they test me and it turns out I've been taking steroids.... I'm disqualified.... Because I have an unfair advantage...... That person has higher than normal testosterone.... That person has an unfair advantage👍 So I say it is the same. I have no sympathy for people that revel in their delusion and demand the rest of society adapt to them. They need to grow the fuck up and deal with their shit
You have no idea how much of a difference hormones make. If you start estrogen at 16 and take bicalutamide as your antiandrogen you will be weaker then the average cis woman. Way way way weaker in every single way. Strength? What strength, your body literally does not receive any testosterone, none, 0. Stamina? Very low testosterone makes your stamina very very low. Bone density? Most trans women on bicalutamide have bone density issues due to lack of testosterones. Your muscle mass more then halfs, your muscle strength is like 5 times smaller. You're literally at a disadvantage against cis women💀. Obviously against cis men would be extremely unfair. You have no idea what a huge difference hormones make. Don't believe me? Go on estrogen and bicalutamide for 2 years, you'll know damn well I'm right after that.
@@AshleyJoy-nd8ui For starters, it’s extremely individual. Secondly, that’s why I’d agree there is some ethical turmoil if a kid transitions young because the research is still a little bit out on how much impact that can have on physical development + we often allow some girls to play in boys leagues until certain ages. BUT, what you’re saying about a teenager or adult male introducing various female hormones into their system and the health ramifications, that’s extremely individual. And anecdotally, I’ve certainly seen it working for 10 years at one of the most trans-friendly gyms in western Canada. I’d assume that the majority of trans women are disadvantaged enough by the health ramifications that they aren’t a “threat” to female sports. But the kicker is, LeBron James dunking on the WNBA and shattering noses while averaging 45ppg at age 45 or Mike Tyson literally punching a woman’s head clear off her head. The level of domination some trans women are having in strength sports especially is literally destroying records by insurmountable amounts. Surely you understand this problem would exist on a scale. Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt etc. these are the most freakish genetic athletes of their respective sports and their god given gifts + tireless training only give them fractions of advantage over their competition. Whereas Leah Thomas and various transwomen have waltzed into the women’s division with their d!ck and b@lls still in hand, still dating women while identifying as women, only to destroy the women’s division after a lifetime of being bottom of the barrel as their former “gender”. That’s 100% immoral. You can’t moralize it with identity. And think about how a female turning male is literally on steroids. And even with that, a trans man isn’t gonna come in and do much in male sports, if anything at all. Because the gap is clearly that wide. There is so much evidence that this is wrong. We can’t use the general rule that most trans people have a myriad of health problems or side effects from their transition as a carte Blanche for literal men or even adult men who became women to go destroy female sports.
100 years of statistics and 50 yours of evidence, renderedmcompletely have moot by the deep-seated sexism that still affects our society today. Equalize the bugets, and the attitudes, and then we'll talk. Also, no, there is absolutely no conclusion on whether trans atheletes have advantages in elite sport. And a man fully modifying himself to pass strict gender standards tests of competitions due to a disire to dominate women or make up for a failed career? It remains to be seen. Why the hell are we even talking about this? We're not atheletes, nor are we athelete consultants, or sports comitee members, or even any kind of researcher or doctor. Why don't we just let them work it out? Because you've been swept up into a culture war, that's why. And i that find to be abhorrently anti-trans.
Bill didn't have to face all of these facts and factual debates before in his show. He invited some guests who made fun and said yes to his argument. That gave him a feeling that he is absolutely correct.
"If facts, logic, and scientific procedures are all just arbitrarily "socially constructed" notions, then all that is left is consensus--more specifically peer consensus, the kind of consensus that matters to adolescents or to many among the intelligentsia." -- Thomas Sowell
Name any scientifically back able facts and logic that dismerit trans people’s existence. I’m Not talking “oh it’s just common sense” or “because men and men or women are women” evidence based science with clear methodology
You clearly don't understand what it means to be transgender. No one claims that chromosomes, or hormones, or reproductive organs are social constructs. But the idea that those things somehow HAVE to dictate your identity certainly is. If someone feels, acts, and looks like a woman, what sense does it make to treat them as a man just because of their chromosomes?
6:52 all major physical characteristics are developed in the womb, so hormones won't change bone density, muscle density, hip width etc. unless you start experiments of shooting hormons into set of twins, one of wich will be shot hormones and other will develop as it is and see how they grow up, their physical stats differences
Are you really claiming that how your bones and muscles develop is not dependent on your hormones? That is just factually incorrect. And you can tell that pretty easily by how you don't have the same hip width as you did when you just came out of the womb
@@BismarkUtah Can you name any papers he is credited with? Thats right its 0. Read his bio. He admits he is not a good scientist. I also know awful NFL head coaches, doctors, and myriad of professions. Ask me how?
That was very contradicting of him like so hes fine with grouping people together by weight so that the fight is interesting but not grouping together men and women like i said if u let trans men compete against women eventually it will just be all guys dressed up as women competing against each other so doesn't that tell you that there's clearly a difference between biological men and women????
Neil DeGrasse Tyson beclowns himself in this clip. He's a poor man's idea of an intellectual. He may know astrophysics but here he's trying to stay in the good graces of the woke mob and it's pathetic.
He doesn't really know astrophysics, truth be known. University of Texas flunked him for good reason. Columbia should be embarrassed they gave him a doctorate.
You are kinda wrong. You can see him get a little angry because whoever the bozo on the left is just brushes what he says away. Neil even fuckin agreed with him at one point. However gender is a issue today, just as race was a issue 100 years ago. Actually, gender and race have always been a issue. And it wont end with two idiots like us arguing over it.
Neil is the best. He is much more open minded at his age than lot of younger people and a true intelectual always open to the new frontiers of the human being. Bravo!
The reason they have boys and girls seperate entrances: is because it is an attempt to prevent kids getting preoccupied with flirting, and engaging in love or sex based endeavors; rather than focusing on their studies, the education.
It was all about the cloakrooms/washrooms. A typical school only had 3 - 1 for staff, 1 for boys and 1 for girls. It made perfect sense when I attended public school in the early '60s. When the recess bell rang, you could go to the washroom and then quickly exit to the yard. Or alternatively, when recess was over, you could use the entrance that corresponded to the closest washroom that denoted your sex, use it, and still be on time for class.
@@LightningPuppet You need a good amount of both in a society. Some individualism is important because goals and aspirations are powerful. But you need a sense of community and self-sacrifice to run a society as well. This, by definition, means you literally CAN'T always get what you want. And not only that, but shouldn't. What does that mean for our society? Hard to say but those two dichotomies are here to stay.
I don't know why people misconstruct what NDT said. He said "I don't have the answer for this". But that an idea would be to allow people in either male or famale team based in their "hormonal level".. Now i see a bunch of problems with that, like your current hormonal level, even if it is close to the one of a woman, after you went through puberty you already developed a stronger bone structure, muscles, etc.. So i disagree with NDT (i guess he is just trying to find a middle ground here).. but he is not saying that this stuff doesn't matter and that anyone should compete in whatever they want like some people seem to believe in the comments.
And here's a point in case He's right The best WNBA team would be destroyed by the worst NBA team but now he tries to extend that to gender when that's a sex issue not a gender issue If the man wants to wear a dress that's fine He's still going on the men's team if the woman wants to wear pants that's fine she's still going on the women's team That's the way it should be Physical sports should be determined by your physical sex gender should never enter the equation because it's software it's completely irrelevant to how well you play football or basketball.
@@SailingSeignior Well, no, because (a) he's not just a comedian, he's a talk-show host, and (b) you're making an illogical equivalency argument re: a professional talk-show host...whose job it is to discuss such issues...and a physicist. But yeah, sure, Maher did bring it up with him...
NDT was always an idiot in every area besides astro physics and even in that area his research is pathetic to even an avg prof. You can find him in bad history, bad anthropology, bad science, and bad math subreddits.
@@bravo2zeroCAN Does Maher have academic expertise with biology and psychology? Should we all only discuss things related to our job? Should janitors only discuss cleaning toilets? Is that your argument?
Its hard to take NDT seriously when he compares this to racism. But "he's thought it through more than you think." I guess it wouldn't take much to meet that threshold.
His point about interesting matchups is completely ridiculous. Using that logic you could throw in lots of men into the women’s tennis matches and it’s still be equal and interesting matches but it wouldn’t be a women’s tournament.
Do you know how to tell if someone does it know enough about a subject to speak on it past their level of comfort and prepared talking points? If that person starts to find ways to blow off the other person‘s point or question by fainting that is not important enough to answer.
Conservatives or just normal people? I don´t even vote. But let´s be fair, let´s conserve common sense, rationality and mere obesarvation.@@toddshockley
His first premise is wrong, therefore his arguments are wrong. From there it has been downhill for him all the way. Man/woman split in sports is sex divide, not a gender divide. His argument regarding weight class is actually more in line with sex division than against it. That one shows that sometimes even slight weight difference can mean a lot, and not to mention sex. If there was no such division, women wouldn't exist in sport. His correction to Maher's statement about our cells making us who we are is also silly or simply disingenuous, because sex hormones are indeed dictated by our cells which are dictated by our genetic makeup. In that sense Maher is closer to the truth there again. Trying to correlate racism with sex division and out of that taking conclusion that division/segregation is wrong on any basis doesn't work, since there can be legitimate reasons for some kinds of divisions. Although Maher's comment on Neil's story about separate entrances to the school missed the point, since in that instance boy/girl division was completely unnecessary.
Neil should have expanded his point on how hormone levels could be scientifically categorized for a separate intersex league apart from male and female.
The real issue here is that it's not so much about the health of the individuals as the health of the society. Except that we're not in a position to make very solid judgements on what is or will be best for society long term. Conservatism is a less risky position in that you're going "Well, we at least know that this worked in the past without huge problems." Doesn't mean that it's optimal. But compared to reckless experimentation and half thought out ideas, it may "usually" be better. Not to say that experiments are bad. But as with medicine, you don't have to just give a new compound to everyone when it's barely been tested on a very small group.
Tyson spoke on this subject in many podcasts. Each time his tenor was thoroughly unscientific. Instead of saying "Let's study the facts and test our findings until we get to the truth" which is the essence of scientific thinking, he kept saying "Hey, why not just be kind and let trans people have their way?"
@@nathalie_desrosiers That arguably depends on what "their way" is. You'd have to define that in a way that was comprehensive across a lifetime to know.
Neil is a smart guy for sure, but he knows shockingly very little when it comes to hormones and the affect they have on the body. Stay in your lane Neil. Imagine a 150 lb man wresting a 150 lb woman. That match will last a good 10 seconds at best.
How much practice and knowledge of physics does each have? Because I'd bet on the 150 pound woman who knows physics every day over the 150 pound man who doesn't.
Irony is the man who decided Pluto didn’t meet the criteria of what defines a planet thinking that we should simply look the other way on redefining gender.
tyson at 1:47 saying thats what hormones do is further from science than what bill marr said that every cell of his body is making him male, sure we can supress natural hormone production and pump in non native hormones to alter the natural hormonal flow which would deabilitate the cells natural function, and its the most clear when we look at the example bill gave after the first thats hormons response, which was i make sperm and some make eggs, and tyson goes again thats just hormones, but no matter how much hormones you pump into a woman she will never make sperm with her cells, and no matter how much hormones are pumped into bill, his cells will never be able to make eggs, because it is not written in their biology, its not what they are on a biological level, but you can create such inbalance that you develope permanent damage to the reproductive organ even before you have any understanding what it means. kids are maluable they become what we make them, give them no attencion and devices that ocupie every second with videoes of self worship and self superiority, they got no skills and more dont know what it takes to become skillfull at something, so ofcorse when they are asked do you know who you are they cant answere, they dont know how to fit in, they dont have the skills to work, be responsible and dont have access to socialize because they are isolated by their parents by sceduals and the passing of ipad. and then they hear from their teachers, the politicians, the tv, that the reason you dont know who you are is because maybe you are different, uniue, so special that you go beyond biology. ofcorse thats going to interest them after all; its how i feel and i want to be special, unique, but then the answere is not to figure out what your skills are or what activities you are drawn to, instead they give a list of sexualities and ask which one do you feel like you are, and at first many say fluid or asexual, that to me is an indication that the individual is not being troubled by sexuality but rather a lack of understanding where they fit and how they can contribute, not any confusion on how to sexually objectify your self. Im sorry if that got a bit aggressive, i dont think i was but i often get told i am without knowing but im from iceland and no way i could get away with saying this here, here the shut up and take it because its all your fault mr, and the worship of victemhood is be all end all here
Do you have a degree in psychology? It has been empirically proven that transgender people’s brain structures are more aligned with those of the gender they claim to be. It is literally “being born into the wrong body” on a scientific level. Here is just one example of such a study www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/
It astounds me how certain people get all Giddy about segregating this kind from that kind. Neil has an excellent suggestion that makes perfect sense. Never mind dividing by Gender, instead use muscle mass, testosterone levels, etc, for different Categories. Get rid of the old method and employ the new one. Just suppose your child is the one born different from the rest. All they want to do is be part of a team & enjoy that camaraderie. We find more reasons to segregate people than to bring them together. Why do We do this??? If We use a system like Neil suggests no one is left out, no one is made to feel out of place. We’re supposed to be Good examples for Our kids to emulate. So let’s be the best that We can be for the sake of Our kids.
Yes. He is the only one here drinking the kool aid. You have not been influenced to think a certain way whatsoever no sir. You are immune to propaganda, congrats
It is NOT just hormone levels. The separation should be chromosomes. No more Men category and Women category, that is just gender. It should be XX category and YY category. That way you can identify how you want but your chromosomes determine which category you compete in.
@@denzellmovies. Because people with xx are biological female sex and are typically smaller and weaker than people that are biological xy male sex. That way you can identify any gender you want.
Neil DeGras Tyson... a 'man of science' who doesn't believe in science when he believes it will help his career. Science is an objective truth, not a career choice, Neil.
Well, in another clip from this pod he said that it's not the total lack of humor and insanity that's engulfed college campuses but Bill not adjusting his comedy to them that's the problem. Clearly, Neil just bends any way the wind blows just to stay relevant.
Don't Anglo-Saxon white people also have say in the race debate because that is also a race? I find it weird that Bill said he finds himself removed from that discussion. I assume it's because he is white? Race equality affects everyone because everyone belongs to a race or is mixed race. Shouldn't we strive to include all races in everything?
Neil is my idol, but, I really wish he would stay in his field and out of politics. Did he really just say level of hormones are the ONLY thing they separate men from women? 😳 🤦🏽♂️
@@MrBrock314if the majority of the population say that Pytagoras Theorem is not true it still remains true. The triangle doesn’t care about our opinions
That… is not how segregation works. Also statistics say that trans people are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to be a victim of sexual assault compared to a predator. It’s not about safety it’s about cis people not wanting to have to see and deal with trans people, don’t hide behind false excuses just admit it
The only way hormone levels is an equalizer is pre-puberty. Which is why as an 8 year old there were some girls who were stronger than I was or faster than I was, etc. Once puberty hits, bone structure, lung capacity, muscle fiber, etc. develop differently for males and females. So the only way hormone level categories would be fair would be for trans female athletes to have never gone through puberty…I.e. puberty blockers were used. Do we really want to create a system where 11 year olds questioning their gender HAVE to decide whether or not they go through puberty for fear of not being able to compete in the gender category they may or may not identify as as adults? I’m sorry, there is no perfect solution, but every other solution gives an unfair genetic advantage to a microscopic % of the population at the expense of half the population. And if that wasn’t the case, then why are we only arguing about non contact sports? Why not boxing or MMA? Maybe it’s because the woke left doesn’t care about women getting their asses kicked unless they ACTUALLY get their asses kicked.
Hey Neil, it's not a good idea for people to take lots of hormones for sports or any other reason, unless the hormones were prescribed to address an imbalance. Hormones are hard on the body and can lead to sterilization of younger people and health problems for older people. Talk to someone in the sciences, Neil, if you can find some who're not drunk on gender dogma. Good luck! I was so wrong to think you knew science - my bad.
He's an astrophysicist - he didn't study biology. For comparison, I studied a biochemistry degree and then went into teaching and I would outrank him in studying biology classes by thousands of hours. And even I wouldn't pretend to be a biology expert. But, everything humans do is arbitrary so he's not crazy to suggest there are other ways we could split up sports. It's just a matter of whether we, as a society, care to. In the words of Ryan George, everything comes down to "it's this way, I decided." Humans just made up all the rules that exist in human culture. The real laws are the scientific laws and they don't address this question.
@@MrBrock314 As the old saying goes "I'm not a veterinarian but I know a horse's a** when I see one". In other words, I don't have to have a PHD in biology to know the difference in a man and a woman. I agree that grown adults should be able to do as they wish as long as it doesn't affect others, but to say a transgender male is the same as a biological woman is insane.
It's weird watching someone both try to prove a point while proving themselves wrong. He kept saying no one wants to watch a team blow out another but then doesn't agree with the fact that the weakest team in the NBA wouldn't blow out the best team in the WNBA. The reason they are separate is because the average man in sports is more physically fit than the average female in sports. Which in turn would not be fair. Maybe they should let these things just happen and let them see the result to squash that whole debate.
The point about weight classes is not to make it more enjoyable to the viewer, its to protect the athletes and to make the sport fairer. Trans athletes makes sport unfair for women
Trans men make sports unfair for women? Yeah people are advocating for trans men to face cis men. Y'all are the ones that want men in women's sports, even when they don't want to be there
hes been losing credibility for years but this was the nail in the coffin
No kidding
Neil or Bill Maher?
@@1w72st spoken like a true douchebag
No such thing as a men’s league, it’s all open. NBA,mlb,nhl, ufc allow females to play in these leagues if they are good enough. Decades ago an nhl team had a female goalie.
@@1w72stNeil. 🙄
What hes forgetting is that its not just hormone levels..men and women have different muscle fibers, hip angles and dozen of other physiological defferences. The number of possible spectra is likely in the hundreds if you wanted to make it really fair.
That's why testosterone-level classes wouldn't level the playing field. It's not like if my testosterone was at the same level as a woman's than it'd be competitive. I have stronger bone density, larger lung capacity, among other advantages.
Different gametes as well
he isn't forgetting. He is a dishonest prick. The kind of scum society could do without.
Fair comment. Some people seriously get triggered by this topic and just parrot whatever their favorite political commentator thinks. It’s nice to see people making valid points like this one and having a real discussion vs. “No you’re wrong and have no credibility.”
Gametes don't give an athletic advantage.@@cyclicozone2072
The difference in this debate is when Neil speaks he’s being cut off but when the other guy speaks Neil gives him the respect & stops talking 💯
People always interupt when someone's talking sense.
Neil is always cutting people off and talking over them. This time he got a taste of his own medicine.
3:40 Neil was saying that ENTRANCE to the school was separated to boys and girls entrances but Bill was thinking that Neil was talking about BATHROOMS. Separating school entrance for boys and girls is indeed wierd.
It's weird and probably extremely uncommon. Not sure it is even worth bringing up.
@@stickman1742 Probably dates back to the time when people were at war in Western countries. Still there is a gender specific requirement for drafts in times of war though that somehow hasn't been modernised.
They used to teach boys and girls in different classes, just check out Google and history of schooling
Bill has a fixation on penises and vaginas.
Okay, but two feet past the entrance, are they still separated?
I totally get the spectrum,it’s based on the way the individual feels and they have the right to feel anyway they want. However at some point the fact there are only 2 biological sexes matters with certain things, like sports. We can’t present biology is on a spectrum so we gotta be sure to differentiate between feelings and biology. Biological men in biological women’s bathrooms or biological women’s sports is not right.
According to Tyson it’s fair game, and most of far left liberals
Sports, yes, 100% fact shouldn't be there. Bathrooms are more fuzzy, though.
I mean, one of the problems is that genuine innocent trans people have to deal with predators taking advantage for their own gain and making their position harder to argue. And the other problem is that the state of transition itself for any given trans person is practically a spectrum as well. You have trans women who look like men in wigs; and then you have trans women who genuinely are almost indistinguishable from biological women unless you look hard enough. The former would definitely make a lot of women very uncomfortable in the restrooms; the latter probably wouldn't even be noticed. That's a problem that I don't think is going to be solved anytime soon. And someone might say, well, hey, just make all restrooms unisex; mmm, a LOT of people would hate that and it would create its own problems.. I mean, are we really going to force women and girls into the same restrooms as men just to satisfy ~0.5% of the population? So maybe someone might rebut, alright then, just make a third unisex bathroom for all trans or non-binary people or w/e. Well, that also has its own problems... imagine the construction and space costs of every building now needing a third restroom. It's just a big fat issue.
I personally think the most reasonable solution is to handle it on a case-by-case basis (is that what we're already doing as a society? I'm honestly not sure). If enough people complain about a certain somebody making others uncomfortable in a restroom, maybe because they haven't transitioned enough or they're being weird, then bar them from entering it and make them use the other restroom. On the other hand, if no one even notices one trans woman entering and no one complains, then it's very probably not doing any harm and so just let it be. It's not ideal and has its own complications, but imo it beats the alternatives. Maybe when trans individuals reach a larger share of the population, we can more seriously consider other alternatives.
@@StunBunsWhat do you do when a woman walks in and exposes her penis in a womens room?
Certainly matters in healthcare. Male & female patients are biologically different and need different care. Why does no one talk about this?
Why is it that cis women get harassed and trans women don’t. Maybe it’s not being trans that’s the issue
We’ve gotten to a level of insanity that pushed people into denial. This is such a crazy conversation to have.
How is this issue even relevant?
@@toddshockley it depends on where you live.
A good response to NgT's insane solution would be "Okay. Then since there are people who believe the earth is flat, let's change the science books to include that as a possibility so we don't offend those flat earthers."
Yeah like Trump supporters
@@Rocketman0013 sort of. MAGA is its own problem but this gender stuff feels like we’ve left reality. Both sides have gone batshit and that’s not a comforting thought.
The hormone ratio itself is not the problem...its the way the body develops under certain hormones... cant be changed
Wish Neil understood that. He should study science.
Yep. You can change your current soup of hormones all you want, but if you've already developed male-typical bone structure, for example, that ain't going anywhere. I don't understand why people are pretending gender and sex are more complicated than it actually is. It's one of the basic, simple things that we instinctively understand as infants. We know a man when we see one, we know a woman when we see one. And we sure as shit learn very quickly which one physically dominates, and it isn't even close.
Hip width contributes to athletic performance to an insane degree
@@jackworthington5205 Could we not just account for that and redesign the game to fit whatever we wanted? I'm not saying that's a good idea. I'm just saying we can launch people to the moon, we could figure out how to design a game for both sexes if we cared to.
So by your argument there is no problem with a trans person who started puberty blockers early enough to compete in sports.
Reminds me of that one line from Oppenheimer that said something along the lines of “scientists might be the smartest people but not necessarily the wisest.”
So true someone I so highly admired is so brutally flawed and so easily manipulated by social media. He’s terrified of being canceled yet he keeps canceling himself. He’s literally turning himself into the anti-hero and now he’s running with it instead of backing down learning that he was wrong. He’s standing in front of the door and moving a bookcase in front of it refusing to acknowledge the fact that you can see it in his face. His argument is trash, and then he uses the race card for his last Mary, hoping that you feel you will be canceled if you argue against it he’s terrified because now he has one group holding him in one political view, and the other one is biting at his knees telling him he’s wrong, and he can never be wrong. He’s too smart for that so he tries to out you. I’ll control the conversation or flat out. Call you a racist, he’s lost all credibility. He’s no longer the person I respected the person I admired, and the person I look forward to listening to he’s just a shell of himself who now I disregard as a crazy leftist, which is really upsetting to even think about, but Joe Rogan called this out years ago, and unfortunately he was right and I really didn’t think he was at the time
@@Joeyyyyyyyyy1987the amount of males who will dress as girls just to play sports so they can cheat is just zero. The reason this is even a topic is so that bigots can express their hatred at anyone who doesn't see the world as they do.
@@dr.graves5541that’s factually wrong but ok
@@JohnCampeaspoop show me a man who is soooo desperate to win at a sport that they dress as a girl, and you will be looking at someone that absolutely nobody can have respect for. Lots of girls have tons of testosterone, and regularly play in boys sports. Ya, I went out with a girl who pitched for the varsity baseball team in high school. Did she do it because she hates god? No, it was because she was that good.
That's why smart people are typically conspiracy theorists. Which isn't a good thing.
He is very ridiculous. Thanks Bill Maher for calling him stupid on this point
No wonder, that the crowd is cheering for the comedian, instead for the scientist on science stuff.
if this year’s Olympics hasn’t shown the word the ridiculousness of transgender athletes in women’s sports, then we are truly lost.
@@kasetoast8354except that's not his field of expertise and anyone that believes that nonsense is indoctrinated
@@SobridMusicit’s not bills field either, the difference is one of them has learned the scientific method and spent their entire life dedicated to learning the objective truth in the universe and the other is some old comedian who wants to pretend he knows everything when really thinking you know anything is a fallacy
@@MarshMellow12 except the scientific method can't be applied to gender expression as there are no constants in his delusional belief of gender fluidity outside of the binary.
aren’t the skeletal structures different?
There are tendencies like with hight but it varies greatly
Yes, but then the counter argument would be, "Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt have differing anatomy compared to their peers". Then someone responds with, "The physiological difference is dictated by the potential of the XY/XX chromosome."
Introducing estrogen or testosterone changes bone shape and density. Look it up if you don't believe me lol
@@Idkchangethislater ntroducing estrogen or testosterone changes bone shape and density. Look it up if you don't believe me lol
There’s allot of physiological differences.
Honestly, Neil DeGrasse Tyson was Thinking. Actually thinking, and doing so out of the box. We talk about 'The Conversation' but it seems most people you meet are lowkey conservative and just don't want to question anything they've grown to learn. Being able to think outside of the box is a starting point to re-evaluate your principles and rules to see if they still make sense.
It baffles me that people will insult him for doing this, yet think they are somehow open minded. Bill Maher ISN'T thinking out of the box. He is drawing absolute lines in the sand: Men vs. Women.
And why? Because that's how it's always been. HOW - is - that- a progressive position? That's flat out conservatism.
don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out.
Exactly. He is throwing things out he's not making it a political issue.
Conservatism is just the way of truth, logic and reality.
Progressivism = fear, corruption and death.
"...to see if they still make sense. " Yes, but Neil isn't really seeing what makes sense. He is trying to make it make sense. That's the difference. See many already have the conclusion in mind and are just trying to get there. Also there are so many other differences between males and females that to make it absolutely fair you would have to measure so many things before you start pitting them against each other in certain sports. I believe also in the end most transpeople wouldn't even want sports split into all those categories.
@@FeedingFrenzy91 but you are doing the exact same thing
Neil knows who writes his checks.
Yeah bro, the pizza state. Lasers are watching you and theyre gonna make you eat bugs
Neil has empathy and isn't an old guy screaming at the sky.
@@andybarrett6472I will not eat the bugs and I will not live in the pods!!!!!!!!!
@@scoty_doesis it empathy that deludes people then lol
@@shettlock Also, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." is another fine example.
Even sports have evolved. Women were not always allowed to play the same sports as men. So, what’s so radical with the idea of having sports not be segregated by gender?
Right? I love Neil.
Neil raises good points and argues them better than most people holding his position. I wish Bill would have actually engaged with the arguments rather than laughing them off. Neil is trying to have a conversation, Bill isn't. Whatever side of the issue you fall on, I wish we could at least have the conversation.
his points were laughable.
@@jones2277 Maybe, but you don't convince anybody of anything by laughing at them
He is so out of his depth here. The difference between men and women is not just hormones. Did you know men have higher bone density, faster reaction times, over 60% more upper body strength, different shaped hips for running etc.etc.etc.?
@@Democracy_Manifest And, how many of those are crucial in strategic sports? Why are a good chunk of e-sports players women? Perhaps the problem isn't that men have the advantage in sports. Perhaps the problem is we designed sports with men in mind.
@MrBrock314 No its the simple fact that males have the advantage in strength, size, speed and power. Along with coordination, reaction time etc. Virtually any physical pursuits are going to incorporate those aspects in some form or another.
Dunning-Kruger in full effect out here
Yeah, just look at these comments
He thinks he knows more about biology than Richard Dawkins and Dawkins would never claim to know more about Astrophysics than an Astrophysicist De Ass Tyson thinks he's smarter than he is and boys and girls had separate entrances because they were taught in separate classrooms boys and girls were taught that way and actually there's been debate that kids learned better that way, but he's using the race card fountain analogy to try get one up on the white supremacists Bill Mayer🤯
Well, perhaps the categories should be the same as in games? Just think about it. It makes sense to match people with other people with similar performance. I.e you keep a permanent ledger of past matches and performance of every athlete who competes on a professional level. Then, you split them into groups similar to how its done in games....bronze, silver, gold, platinum ,diamond. Bronze tier athletes match with other bronze athletes. If you want to move up in rankings, you need to defeat a certain number of higher ranking athletes. Heavy weights will inevitably move up to highest ranks, fly weights will move to lower ranks and if it happens so that some fly weight can defeat a few heavy weights, then they can move up to that category, regardless of their weight or size. This way, your opponents are determined by your performance, not by your physical attributes.
This is exactly how e-sports already solved the gender issue.
@@MrBrock314 Yup, but the only downside is that currently, in sports, all gold medals are equal, i.e flyweight boxing gold medal is equal to heavy weight boxing medal, so both matches would be gold-medal matches and thus would draw alot of attention, where as in e-sports style matchmaking, flyweight gold would be at best "silver rank" and heavy weights would be in some kind of "global elite" rank...and then , people wouldnt be that much interseted in silver rank matches anymore.
The upside however would be that this kind of matchmaking could be blended with the sports of casual people and therefore people would feel more connected to the sports. I.e silver rank would be the begining of what is considered "professional sports" but before that, you would have "bronze rank" that would represent highschool sports teams and various other hobby sports clubs. And before bronze ranks, you could have some even lower rank groups, that connect all the way down to elementary schools.
Li Wenwen is a female weightlifter. She weighs 331 lb. Her record is: snatch 327 lb and clean & jerk 415 lb. Naim Suleimanoglou was a weightlifter. He weighted 135 lb. He record is snatch: 336 lb and clean & jerk 422 lb. She ought weighs him by by 200 lb.
Not relevant. Neil is saying that we already categorize sports in ways outside of perceived gender so theoretically, there could be a way to reasonably do so while including trans people. Bills argument is based on tradition, not logic.
Gender is not perceived. It is objective
@@christoforosmeziriadis9135 Still not relevant.
@christoforosmeziriadis9135 I come in peace. If gender is objective, why do different cultures perceive and express it differently?
You said it yourself. They perceive it differently. They have a belief. Because no matter the culture, people have either male genitalia or female genitalia
2:46 That is something very different, because there is no difference between the physical capabilities of dark-skinned people and a light-skinned people, but there is a big difference between the physical capabilities of men and women.
Totally agree
There are bound to be biological differences within groups (including ethnic differences). It’s possible that genes from Caribbean ethnic groups give an advantage to sprinters, for example. But these are much smaller differences than the differences between male and female.
Yes, women are built for endurance and to handle pain, men are built for quick burst or strength and speed.
I think Neil had that cancellation scare a few years ago for some sexual assault thing. Now he's gone SUPER woke to signal he's "one of the good guys" and to protect himself from the mob.
A lot of the reasons people go super woke on these current debates is indeed that: fear of cancellation. To be cancelled is is to be marked with a scarlet letter.
Lol... Being cancelled is something people talk about. Never really happens. People complain and wring their hands... No one is actually 'cancelled'.
@@Bito292 What do you call it when you lose your job and all of your lined up gigs because someone doesn't want to be associated with you for fear of the backlash? That hasn't happened a lot recently?
@@Bito292 Cancellation deniers are about as on-point as climate deniers. Both quacks.
Is the problem as severe as some people think it is? No. Is it a problem? Yes, definitely for some people.
Sure darling... The woke-lizard people are coming for you.
Feels like a scene from The Big Lebowski.
It's beyond problematic when a science educator cares more about being morally superior than about being scientifically correct
But he is scientifically correct?!
@@kasetoast8354yes, he definitely is.
@@kasetoast8354everyone in this comment section acting like they’re a professional mf scientist because Neil acknowledges and respects trans people 😭 LMFAOO
@@Barricadepenis thank you, i thought i was going crazy
Its honestly wild that there are transphobes who still manage to gaslight themselves into thinking that any scientific fields support their views with all the research nowdays
Tyson should have been corrected Immediately. Hormones are NOT what determines the production of sperm and eggs. Genetics does, either XX or XY. The ability to generate eggs or sperm is determined at conception. All the eggs a female will produce in her lifetime is already created during gestation and present at birth. At puberty, hormones complete the development of secondary sex characteristics which can result in fertilization of eggs with sperm.
In Trans individuals on hormones, female hormones don't create eggs - they destroy the reproductive capacity of males. Testosterone destroys the reproductive capacity of females. In the opposite sex Hormones Sterilize The Opposite Sex, not create it.
That should have been the end of this ridiculous argument.
The fallacy is the implication that the biological sex divide is entirely hormones
Both hormones and sex fall under genetics. We are already understanding the fundamentals of a system where there is less duality and far more complexity. The hard thing will be proving it to the ideologues and pseudo science freaks.
Yep. Hip angle comes to mind.
It might be if you mean right back to conception.
Neil suggested a different divide in sports, not how we should divide the sexes
He didnt imply that at all, he asked the question whats the important difference between male and female and Bill couldnt engage with the question without pearl clutching.
This is much easier issue to solve than everyone is making it!
- So… Sex & gender are not the same things?
Okay.
Well we don’t segregate different sports leagues, based on gender roles.
It’s based on sex.
You can be entirely accepting of people’s GENDER
& still separate sports into male/female,
based on *SEX*
So what team does the hermaphrodite play on, male or female?
"Expression" doesn't make you that thing. I like to wear all black...good luck if I decided that I'm now black. Dressing and acting like a woman...does not a woman make.
Exactly.
His points are so ridiculous. People identify sex by secondary sex characteristics mainly. Men and women are different in almost every way. Different facial shape, skin, hair, body hair, body shape, muscle mass, bone density, height, hand size, everything.
They've even discovered gay men have different faces, and can be scanned to predict homosexuality with very high accuracy.
What it is a women then?
Don't think anyone said that expression makes you a thing. It's just a component of it.
Neil is just sparring and challenging Bill’s narrow approach towards a subject. It doesn’t mean Neil won’t end up agreeing with him or not. Bill says: women should compete women, and men should compete men. Neil is just trying to point out it’s not that black/white and he’s right. The fact that he mentions hormone levels as a random starting point is just him saying: there are more factors than just sex that determine the outcome of a matchup. If a scientist is asked for an opinion on a subject he hasn’t really studied yet, he’ll try to find ANY meaningful starting point which won’t determine the outcome of his study at all. This is what Bill doesn’t understand. He approaches the problem scientifically, Bill doesn’t. Now if Neil was asked to turn this into a scientific study, he would most likely not end up saying: trans women can compete against biological women just fine, in any sport. But in some sports they can. Again, it’s not black/white. Having higher testosterone levels is definitely an advantage, it’s natural, but is it fair? Is being 7ft tall vs 5ft fair when playing basketball 1:1? Automatically assuming trans women can compete against biological women in any sport is wrong, but assuming the opposite is also wrong. That’s what Neil is trying to say, but Bill just keeps ridiculing and interrupting him. Who knows, maybe Neil’s study will produce evidence that East Africans are genetically better equipped than West Africans for long distance running and that West Africans are better equipped for short distances and shouldn’t compete against each other anymore bc it’s not a fair competition. Looking at the results of any major athletics event in the past century would probably show this to be true. But would this now be racist for him (or me) to say this or scientific? You don’t know unless you examine this scientifically. In the Shapiro interview Neil said that research like this can be very dangerous. I think he’s right. So, tough subject indeed.
In science, we measure data, and we build models to account for as much of it as possible. If we find data that contradicts the model, we need a new model. Intersex people exist, therefore data defies the binary model, so we need to adopt a new one. It's not like the binary sex idea is an inherent given either- plenty of other organisms reproduce in other ways.
You like science? Dig human rights? Yeah? Realize that we're still learning about ourselves, realize that our models can be utterly wrong. Go meet a trans person. Find out. Live a little. Don't let your personal ick decide your views, only to pretend that it was logic that got you there.
So here’s the thing, I understand what you’re saying and I also like your polite and kind approach to arguing your point. I would counter with this though- truly intersex people do not exist in humans. There has never in history been a case of two fully functioning sexual organs. Secondly, yes other creatures reproduce in other ways, but we are discussing humans here.
Let me just close with this though- I do know trans people. I respect them and call them by the pronouns they wish to be called. I have a close coworker who is genuinely one of the nicest people I work with. I cannot say a bad word about them. However, I am a genealogist as a side gig. I study DNA among other things and there are differences in male and female at a genetic level that no hormone therapy or surgeries can overcome. I’m struggling w this right now with a client because she wants to trace her paternal ancestry and women do not inherit y-chromosomes from their fathers. I can only do an autosomal DNA test for her. No amount of her calling herself a man would change her genetics.
This is nonsense. Every person on earth with an intersex DSD is male or female. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, so don't try to pass it off as science.
I know and love trans people. They don’t belong in female sports. Has nothing to do with “ick” and everything to do with biology. You as a male should stop mansplaining female rights. It’s not cute!
👏👏👏
"other organisms do it" and? Sex is a binary. Cope harder. Even the intersex mutation winds up either being male or female. The exception to the rule doesnt change the rule.
My Grandmother (Greatest Generation) had a term for cats like this: “An educated-idiot.” I agree, Grandma; God rest your soul…😅
That rhymes with illiterate - every new conservative Bill Maher fan.
@@toddshockleyDenying basic, obvious, provable scientific facts is stupid. Especially for a scientist.
Just like thinking your every opinion has to conform to your chosen political side even when your side spouts total nonsense.
My Grandad used to say "educated beyond their intelligence".
Not to say Neil isn't smart though. He's very smart, and I'm sure knows the true answer to the question at hand, he just refuses to admit scientific fact when it flies in the face of his political views.
@@ranndino The point here is yes, there are scientific facts. Sex is scientific, gender is not.
It is language and culture that makes the connection from male -> man and female -> woman. "Man" and "woman" are socially constructed and not real. (Not all animals that split into male and female sort themselves into men and women, or anything similar). You can say the same for things like money, democracy, law, religion - not real, collective "tools" that may or may not have value (more value for some people, less value for others).
Gender has more to do with culture, tradition and fashion that it does with science.
In other words, it has been created.
What you seem to be saying is you shouldn't be allowed to be *creative* with something that has been *created.*
So the question then becomes, why? Why is everyone required to buy into something that has been made up? And might not necessarily suit their interests?
PLUS science is not something you are required to obey.
@@communityrags6048there are plenty of things that are partially constructed, yet you wouldn't call them "fake" or "not real." Can't you name a few?
“I’ve spent more time thinking about this than you think.”
That’s great. I spend more time thinking about women than anyone on the planet. It doesn’t mean I know fucking anything about women.
And if gender is a spectrum, who decides. Do i declare i am the manliest man in the universe, and everybody has to agree, even if it turns out om afraid of heights, and run away from danger. Or is it the school bully who decides, even when i am at pains to say im not the wimp he says i am, as i can beat him in a race, etc. is it doctors, using some chart that a lgbt charity decide, and they choose our place in it. And whats silliest if all, is some men, are bigger, tougher and better at sports than me, much more aggressive , and machi but identify as women, i mean would they be put where on the spectrum compared to me. No, its a utterly uncogent, contradictory idealogy, that any free thinking person should be allowed to disagree with.
And the craziest thing if all,ball these definitions of where you are on the spectrum can only be based on biological sex anyway, as in what characteristics are more likely to occur in females etc. the gender critical view makes more sense. I am a man, but I could have poor beard growing abilities, or good beard growing abilities, a desire to be a ballet star, or in the sas, a love of cars, or a love of handbags, I'm just as much a man either way, and should be accepted either way, but this pointless gender stereotype idealogy that defines you as needing to go on a useless, gender spectrum is shjt.
No one has to decide? We can decide together? Also, yeah, you can say that you are completely to one side of the spectrum, if you believe that is true for you. But why are you defining gender by inherently postitive or negative traits rather than just neutral quirks and cultural similarities?
You're trying to accept the new theory of gender and its distinction from sexe whilst still using the old, rigid, and frankly quite toxic definitions of it.
And you can say that being transphobic makes more sense if you want, but you have to actually reckon with the fact that it goes against all modern scientific understanding of the subject. You have provided no substance to back up that claim.
I don’t like Neil that much, but I think he handled that perfectly
What distincts a man from a woman is his heart and lung capacity, his bone density, his muscles and etc that are because of hormones but NOT JUST HORMONES. Hormone is not sufficient to be the basis for categories in sports. You are a man of science you are not supposed to overlook these obvious facts.
that's right--he is a man of science. you are not. you do not know anything he does not. and if he does not agree with you, then you are, by definition, wrong.
Hard to believe the ignorance.
you should try being less ignorant then
@@BrianR. This episode highlighted the fact that you being incredibly gifted in intelligence doesn't make you impervious to being ignorant. It's like a brain surgeon who doesn't know how to change a flat tire. Still a fan of Neil, but dude stepping out of his field hasn't been a good look for him. I thought Neil believing nuclear war and its fallout isn't a big deal was odd.
@@BrianR.I think it’s time for your puberty blockers.
Niel identifies as a scientist.
🤣🤣
Neil deGrasse Tyson should just go work for Black Lives Matter at this point all he did in this interview, was trying to cancel anything bill through him by calling him a racist he’s lost all my respect the little bit. He had left is now in the toilet, and I flushed it on a pile of shit that is matter and matter-of-fact. I flushed it and it’s gone just like my respect for Neil are used to look up to him now he doesn’t exist
@@Joeyyyyyyyyy1987 That's a very binary look at the world and at people. People are generally complicated and they're reasonable about some things and completely unreasonable about others. You can see the most fact-based person in the world who goes home and talks about love lasting for eternity even though that's false from an evidence-based perspective.
You can see people highly dependent on their emotions who can follow logical steps like they were a toddler's reading book. People can do both.
@@Joeyyyyyyyyy1987 L take lmao
Unless the "hormone cocktail" has been there since birth, I will keep my skepticism. I grew up with testosterone, which has given me 191cm (6'3") frame, wide shoulders and a lot of body hair. Changing cocktails wouldn't take these away from me and I would be absolutely scary to anybody on a women's team that hypothetically would have to face me.
Should we respect those who don't fall neatly into the "binary"? Sure. Should we scrap all the rules and rewrite sports and society to accommodate?
Thats why neil is saying to go by weight n hormone classes. If you identity as a women u still wouldnt be able to competr cuz other women would not be in ur weight n hormone class. Think u fool
@@webguy943 so him taking estrogen will shrink his height and shoulders?
I like how willing they are to argue. Love it.
Neil has thought this through more than you think he has.
"Thought", you say.
He must have thought real deep. lol.
Apparently he has since his understanding of the neurochemistry of gender identity far surpasses that of Bill Maher... Maher doesn't even know the difference between sex and gender; two concepts studied in two seperate branches of biology. Too bad Neil didn't call him out on that error too.
Definitely a conversation with one side being far more respectful than the other.
Bill is so savage and so right 😂
Where exactly?
@@kasetoast8354Everywhere. This isn't even a debate among rational people.
@@ranndino "rational people."
Your friends and parents are not all people that exist. I hope, you know that?!
And secondlly its a very dumb statement to call somebody like Tyson not rational person.
NDT is right.. we don't know much about gender. So study it. It may or may not be scientific it maybe psychology or sociology.. learn about it n think about it..
lol Neil is so off base here. Male and female goes way beyond just hormones. How about bone structure and density? It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that.
Different races also have different bone density. Why start caring about bone density now after so many years?
@@MS-tz1ml because a man would absolutely destroy a woman in a combat sport. It’s really simple.
@@ianarsenault Unless the woman had higher testosterone due to hormone therapy. So no, it isn't.
@@MS-tz1mlmale would still have serval advantages. Cardio. speed, power. Punch resilience..
If you really think a female can beat peak Usain bolt if they take test, Jesus Christ you are beyond help.
@@MS-tz1ml A man can have below normal Testoserone and still beat the shit out of a woman.
Neil is absolutely right
Bill you nailed this one!
Where?
@@kasetoast8354 fr, must have missed or something
If you go through a male puberty you will have more advantage over biological women, however starting your transition at like 18 etc and being on it for a while you will definitely not be able to compete with men. Neil makes a good point with the hormones talking about how people now think that just because a biological woman has different hormones that makes her a man, but hes off when it comes to hormones being the only factor in sports.
Bill is only half paying attention. Neil mentioned that the school had separate doors to enter the building for boys and girls, and Bill defends that by saying they pee differently? What does that have to do with with which door you enter the school from? Bill isn't interesting in actually understanding the other viewpoint, he's listening for details he can argue with. Nothing more.
And then he says he's worried about the health of the people taking hormones, while smoking. Yeah, I can tell he's real concerned about the health consequences.
and he says he is a "classic liberal" but when people decide about what is best for them and their health he want's to stop them because he knows best what's good for them
They're both drunk as fuck, Neil also didn't catch Bill mentioning how they pee differently but they both understood the point. Doesn't discredit the argument one bit.
Smoking and taking hormones is very, very different. One of them might cause cancer (15-20% chance) while the other one will mutilate a child in ways that should be banned by the geneva convention. You tell me which is which
@@jonathanh6030Underground hormone markets are a thing and a growing industry, people will vouch for them like their life depended on them. It's people like Bill who slow down the madness a lil bit. No, taking hormones for treating "gender dysphoria" is not good for you.
It's amazing an intelligent person like Neil deGrasse Tyson manages to be so incredibly wrong, ignorant and anti-science on something
he is great at his field of work. The problem is when we "assume" that just because someone excels in one area he/she/it has credibility in other area. Sure, as an inteligent person he is interesting to listen to, but outside his expertise area, I´d take what he says with a grain of salt.
@@supersueca1 It kinda reminds me of 2 times Nobel Price winner Linus Pauling who, at age 65, started propagating pseudoscientific nonsense about Vitamin C, claiming it could prevent and heal anything from colds to cancer. I wouldn’t put deGrasse Tyson in a group with anti vaccine people tho, because they’re usually telling their unscientific bs with malicious intent.
@@supersueca1 yeah like forcing actors and singers to gives us political insight when they have no idea on the subjects
Anti science... Like every male is born exactly like every other male. Some have tiny bones, and some girls are muscular and hairy, with more testosterone than Bill and Neil combined. There are literally million people who were born with different portions of both male and female reproductive organs, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that being born with a biologically male centered brain and female organs between their legs should be considered normal. It is science that proves that everyone on the spectrum is normal. It's the massive lack of education, and the desperation of people in power that want to stay in power, that have the most vulnerable people on earth as targets for the most ignorant as a way of hiding what is actually going on.
@@hair4571 speaking of politics, lol, it's like politicians taking money from corporations to convince the ignorant masses to ignore science, and just expect less and less out of life, because the rich have it so hard... Kinda like how evangelicals try to use the bible, even though they have never read a single page of the book...
He proves Oppenheimer's point as to why scientists should not be world leaders and just stay in their lanes...
Scientists would make better leaders than what we have in office now.
And how well did that work out for Oppenheimer? Oh right, it didn't. The world leaders decided on genocide.
Even if they use a turn signal?
You really seem like a guy, that doesnt listen to science.
Science does not talk, it´s just an abstract idea.@@kasetoast8354
I could walk into a national female powerlifting competition tomorrow and win with 25%+ to spare without training for it. I'm strong compared to gen pop, but would get absolutely obliterated in a men's competition for my weight class.
So confident are we? There are many such examples of arrogant people like you being completely outmatched in pursuit of similarly hubris moments. You think you’re that much stronger than the trained athletes? Get over your ego holy shit. Meanwhile, have you any concept of the muscle mass changes that hormones thus would influence on your untrained body?
I agree 100% with Neil. Weight categories work for fighting. Just create more categories and get it over with. We have a housing crisis, inflation and we are obsessing about gender... both the left and the right.
A woman with an abnormally high testosterone level or with intersex characteristics is not even remotely comparable to someone who lived their entire life as a man and then took some hormones and/or got some surgery. The playing field in sports is never fair. But the idea is that we equalize it to the point where everyone has a fighting chance. Trans athletes, especially in strength sports, literally sh*t all over that equalized playing field. Your natural gifts and genetics are supposed to be an advantage, not a giant trump card.
I really wish we could drop the morals and politics surrounding this and talk about the medical realities of introducing testosterone into a biologically female system/estrogen to a male system. Not to mention the RECORDED statistics in roughly 100 years of documented competitive sport and 50+ years of female competition that paints a picture so unbelievably clear that it could easily be utilized as the evidence of the immorality of this belief system.
I can sympathize with the reality of young trans kids feeling excluded and ostracized from sports and the ethical turmoil that can create (though I’d argue it’s a parent’s job to teach their trans child that they’re not in Kansas anymore). BUT I have zero patience for pretending we need to “respect the rights” of a grown man who decides he wants to dominate the female competition in the sport he never succeeded at playing with his true counterparts. I actually find it abhorrently anti-woman to the purest degree.
The 100m world record sprint is set at 10.49 by Florence GRIFFITH-JOYNER. I would like to see you with your gonads and phallus born a man with all the advantages that you so state that you have beat that record. And if you can post it up here so we can see that would be great
As a man.... If I'm a boxer and I have unusually high testosterone...
Then they test me and it turns out I've been taking steroids....
I'm disqualified.... Because I have an unfair advantage......
That person has higher than normal testosterone.... That person has an unfair advantage👍
So I say it is the same.
I have no sympathy for people that revel in their delusion and demand the rest of society adapt to them.
They need to grow the fuck up and deal with their shit
You have no idea how much of a difference hormones make. If you start estrogen at 16 and take bicalutamide as your antiandrogen you will be weaker then the average cis woman. Way way way weaker in every single way. Strength? What strength, your body literally does not receive any testosterone, none, 0. Stamina? Very low testosterone makes your stamina very very low. Bone density? Most trans women on bicalutamide have bone density issues due to lack of testosterones. Your muscle mass more then halfs, your muscle strength is like 5 times smaller. You're literally at a disadvantage against cis women💀. Obviously against cis men would be extremely unfair. You have no idea what a huge difference hormones make. Don't believe me? Go on estrogen and bicalutamide for 2 years, you'll know damn well I'm right after that.
@@AshleyJoy-nd8ui For starters, it’s extremely individual. Secondly, that’s why I’d agree there is some ethical turmoil if a kid transitions young because the research is still a little bit out on how much impact that can have on physical development + we often allow some girls to play in boys leagues until certain ages. BUT, what you’re saying about a teenager or adult male introducing various female hormones into their system and the health ramifications, that’s extremely individual. And anecdotally, I’ve certainly seen it working for 10 years at one of the most trans-friendly gyms in western Canada. I’d assume that the majority of trans women are disadvantaged enough by the health ramifications that they aren’t a “threat” to female sports. But the kicker is, LeBron James dunking on the WNBA and shattering noses while averaging 45ppg at age 45 or Mike Tyson literally punching a woman’s head clear off her head. The level of domination some trans women are having in strength sports especially is literally destroying records by insurmountable amounts. Surely you understand this problem would exist on a scale.
Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt etc. these are the most freakish genetic athletes of their respective sports and their god given gifts + tireless training only give them fractions of advantage over their competition. Whereas Leah Thomas and various transwomen have waltzed into the women’s division with their d!ck and b@lls still in hand, still dating women while identifying as women, only to destroy the women’s division after a lifetime of being bottom of the barrel as their former “gender”. That’s 100% immoral. You can’t moralize it with identity.
And think about how a female turning male is literally on steroids. And even with that, a trans man isn’t gonna come in and do much in male sports, if anything at all. Because the gap is clearly that wide. There is so much evidence that this is wrong. We can’t use the general rule that most trans people have a myriad of health problems or side effects from their transition as a carte Blanche for literal men or even adult men who became women to go destroy female sports.
100 years of statistics and 50 yours of evidence, renderedmcompletely have moot by the deep-seated sexism that still affects our society today.
Equalize the bugets, and the attitudes, and then we'll talk.
Also, no, there is absolutely no conclusion on whether trans atheletes have advantages in elite sport. And a man fully modifying himself to pass strict gender standards tests of competitions due to a disire to dominate women or make up for a failed career? It remains to be seen.
Why the hell are we even talking about this? We're not atheletes, nor are we athelete consultants, or sports comitee members, or even any kind of researcher or doctor. Why don't we just let them work it out?
Because you've been swept up into a culture war, that's why. And i that find to be abhorrently anti-trans.
Bill didn't have to face all of these facts and factual debates before in his show. He invited some guests who made fun and said yes to his argument. That gave him a feeling that he is absolutely correct.
There is some truth in what you’re saying. Things are not black and white. His ego doesn’t necessarily make him wrong.
If those "facts" you speak of are "mEn cAn Be woMaN 🥴" than you are as lost as the moron he's interviewing...
In this case he's absolutely correct. Bill has what many don't. Logic and common sense. He doesn't play games to conform just to please someone.
@@ranndino Perfect example of Dunning-Kruger effect
Where is he wrong here?
"If facts, logic, and scientific procedures are all just arbitrarily "socially constructed" notions, then all that is left is consensus--more specifically peer consensus, the kind of consensus that matters to adolescents or to many among the intelligentsia."
-- Thomas Sowell
Name any scientifically back able facts and logic that dismerit trans people’s existence. I’m
Not talking “oh it’s just common sense” or “because men and men or women are women” evidence based science with clear methodology
You clearly don't understand what it means to be transgender. No one claims that chromosomes, or hormones, or reproductive organs are social constructs. But the idea that those things somehow HAVE to dictate your identity certainly is. If someone feels, acts, and looks like a woman, what sense does it make to treat them as a man just because of their chromosomes?
As a scientist he should support fact and data and not feeling and emotions
Gender isn’t scientific, it’s a social construct.
Good thing he can do both
6:52 all major physical characteristics are developed in the womb, so hormones won't change bone density, muscle density, hip width etc. unless you start experiments of shooting hormons into set of twins, one of wich will be shot hormones and other will develop as it is and see how they grow up, their physical stats differences
Are you really claiming that how your bones and muscles develop is not dependent on your hormones? That is just factually incorrect. And you can tell that pretty easily by how you don't have the same hip width as you did when you just came out of the womb
It's not just hormones. Chromosomes are a scientific fact
I miss Neil when he was not a political hack but rather a scientist
Both can be true.
@@ErikWithBrain Can be. Not is.
The problem is not that he is "political " the problem is that non political things get political.
He is an awful scientist. But a good communicator.
@@BismarkUtah Can you name any papers he is credited with? Thats right its 0. Read his bio. He admits he is not a good scientist. I also know awful NFL head coaches, doctors, and myriad of professions. Ask me how?
That was very contradicting of him like so hes fine with grouping people together by weight so that the fight is interesting but not grouping together men and women like i said if u let trans men compete against women eventually it will just be all guys dressed up as women competing against each other so doesn't that tell you that there's clearly a difference between biological men and women????
Neil DeGrasse Tyson beclowns himself in this clip. He's a poor man's idea of an intellectual. He may know astrophysics but here he's trying to stay in the good graces of the woke mob and it's pathetic.
He doesn't really know astrophysics, truth be known. University of Texas flunked him for good reason. Columbia should be embarrassed they gave him a doctorate.
@@HopDavid I'm not surprised. This guy's a hack.
You are kinda wrong. You can see him get a little angry because whoever the bozo on the left is just brushes what he says away.
Neil even fuckin agreed with him at one point. However gender is a issue today, just as race was a issue 100 years ago.
Actually, gender and race have always been a issue. And it wont end with two idiots like us arguing over it.
"beclowns"...love it.
Yeah. He thought this through everyone.
2:06
Like "pretending like every baby is a jump ball...."
He nails it.
Good job, Bill!
Neil is the best. He is much more open minded at his age than lot of younger people and a true intelectual always open to the new frontiers of the human being. Bravo!
The reason they have boys and girls seperate entrances: is because it is an attempt to prevent kids getting preoccupied with flirting, and engaging in love or sex based endeavors; rather than focusing on their studies, the education.
This used to be common sense. Crazy you actually had to explain it.
It was all about the cloakrooms/washrooms. A typical school only had 3 - 1 for staff, 1 for boys and 1 for girls. It made perfect sense when I attended public school in the early '60s. When the recess bell rang, you could go to the washroom and then quickly exit to the yard. Or alternatively, when recess was over, you could use the entrance that corresponded to the closest washroom that denoted your sex, use it, and still be on time for class.
Must’ve missed how that 28-0 halftime Super Bowl went down
I like Neil. But like too many people, he's cares too much about the individual's feelings.
Better than collectivism
@@LightningPuppet You need a good amount of both in a society. Some individualism is important because goals and aspirations are powerful. But you need a sense of community and self-sacrifice to run a society as well. This, by definition, means you literally CAN'T always get what you want. And not only that, but shouldn't.
What does that mean for our society? Hard to say but those two dichotomies are here to stay.
Neil cares about facts and an humanistic-philosophical interpretation of that facts. Bill is just rioting.
And this dude the one that only relies on science for his reasoning smh lol
I don't know why people misconstruct what NDT said.
He said "I don't have the answer for this". But that an idea would be to allow people in either male or famale team based in their "hormonal level".. Now i see a bunch of problems with that, like your current hormonal level, even if it is close to the one of a woman, after you went through puberty you already developed a stronger bone structure, muscles, etc..
So i disagree with NDT (i guess he is just trying to find a middle ground here).. but he is not saying that this stuff doesn't matter and that anyone should compete in whatever they want like some people seem to believe in the comments.
And here's a point in case He's right The best WNBA team would be destroyed by the worst NBA team but now he tries to extend that to gender when that's a sex issue not a gender issue
If the man wants to wear a dress that's fine He's still going on the men's team if the woman wants to wear pants that's fine she's still going on the women's team That's the way it should be
Physical sports should be determined by your physical sex gender should never enter the equation because it's software it's completely irrelevant to how well you play football or basketball.
It’s a shame that Tyson has become so strangely ridiculous about this issue. Stick to physics…
Going by that logic should Maher stick to comedy?
@@SailingSeignior Well, no, because (a) he's not just a comedian, he's a talk-show host, and (b) you're making an illogical equivalency argument re: a professional talk-show host...whose job it is to discuss such issues...and a physicist. But yeah, sure, Maher did bring it up with him...
NDT was always an idiot in every area besides astro physics and even in that area his research is pathetic to even an avg prof. You can find him in bad history, bad anthropology, bad science, and bad math subreddits.
@@bravo2zeroCAN Does Maher have academic expertise with biology and psychology? Should we all only discuss things related to our job? Should janitors only discuss cleaning toilets? Is that your argument?
LOL! (eye roll) You’re good at missing the point. Congrats and bye-bye…
Its hard to take NDT seriously when he compares this to racism. But "he's thought it through more than you think." I guess it wouldn't take much to meet that threshold.
His point about interesting matchups is completely ridiculous. Using that logic you could throw in lots of men into the women’s tennis matches and it’s still be equal and interesting matches but it wouldn’t be a women’s tournament.
Yes we know. They know. We know they know and they know we know they know.
That's not what he said it all. I swear the level of comprehension among people commenting on this video is below grade school level.
@@jonathanhenderson9422 It’s what he said.
@@pete5691 No, it's not. Maybe go back to grade school if your reading/listening comprehension is that poor.
@@jonathanhenderson9422 Yes I will go back to grade school for reading comprehension.
Do you know how to tell if someone does it know enough about a subject to speak on it past their level of comfort and prepared talking points? If that person starts to find ways to blow off the other person‘s point or question by fainting that is not important enough to answer.
Bill makes me hopeful for the future.
He’s hitting that conservative market with aplomb. Look at the comments.
Conservatives or just normal people? I don´t even vote. But let´s be fair, let´s conserve common sense, rationality and mere obesarvation.@@toddshockley
@@toddshockleyyou have a classic case of paranoid projection. Seek help.
His first premise is wrong, therefore his arguments are wrong. From there it has been downhill for him all the way. Man/woman split in sports is sex divide, not a gender divide. His argument regarding weight class is actually more in line with sex division than against it. That one shows that sometimes even slight weight difference can mean a lot, and not to mention sex. If there was no such division, women wouldn't exist in sport. His correction to Maher's statement about our cells making us who we are is also silly or simply disingenuous, because sex hormones are indeed dictated by our cells which are dictated by our genetic makeup. In that sense Maher is closer to the truth there again. Trying to correlate racism with sex division and out of that taking conclusion that division/segregation is wrong on any basis doesn't work, since there can be legitimate reasons for some kinds of divisions. Although Maher's comment on Neil's story about separate entrances to the school missed the point, since in that instance boy/girl division was completely unnecessary.
Neil should have expanded his point on how hormone levels could be scientifically categorized for a separate intersex league apart from male and female.
The real issue here is that it's not so much about the health of the individuals as the health of the society.
Except that we're not in a position to make very solid judgements on what is or will be best for society long term.
Conservatism is a less risky position in that you're going "Well, we at least know that this worked in the past without huge problems."
Doesn't mean that it's optimal. But compared to reckless experimentation and half thought out ideas, it may "usually" be better.
Not to say that experiments are bad. But as with medicine, you don't have to just give a new compound to everyone when it's barely been tested on a very small group.
Tyson spoke on this subject in many podcasts. Each time his tenor was thoroughly unscientific. Instead of saying "Let's study the facts and test our findings until we get to the truth" which is the essence of scientific thinking, he kept saying "Hey, why not just be kind and let trans people have their way?"
His exact words were "its still a frontier to be solved and we don't have an answer. I can suggest one but [idk if] it will work."
OMG. What does it do to *your* life if they _get their way_ ? Seriously?
As a rule do you generally avoid kindness?
@@nathalie_desrosiers That arguably depends on what "their way" is. You'd have to define that in a way that was comprehensive across a lifetime to know.
@@bennettnez4711yes at all costs
Neil is a smart guy for sure, but he knows shockingly very little when it comes to hormones and the affect they have on the body. Stay in your lane Neil. Imagine a 150 lb man wresting a 150 lb woman. That match will last a good 10 seconds at best.
It’s « effect » not affect.
How much practice and knowledge of physics does each have? Because I'd bet on the 150 pound woman who knows physics every day over the 150 pound man who doesn't.
Irony is the man who decided Pluto didn’t meet the criteria of what defines a planet thinking that we should simply look the other way on redefining gender.
I have been making this argument over and over again. So Pluto is definitely not a planet, but a man is not woman? Wtf. This is why humans suck.
The problem is the new desire for fight, equality craze and competition between men and women instead of balanced collaboration
Yin & Yang
Why is it too complicated to understand that you are either male or female?! Please stop the nonsense!!!
tyson at 1:47 saying thats what hormones do is further from science than what bill marr said that every cell of his body is making him male, sure we can supress natural hormone production and pump in non native hormones to alter the natural hormonal flow which would deabilitate the cells natural function, and its the most clear when we look at the example bill gave after the first thats hormons response, which was i make sperm and some make eggs, and tyson goes again thats just hormones, but no matter how much hormones you pump into a woman she will never make sperm with her cells, and no matter how much hormones are pumped into bill, his cells will never be able to make eggs, because it is not written in their biology, its not what they are on a biological level, but you can create such inbalance that you develope permanent damage to the reproductive organ even before you have any understanding what it means.
kids are maluable they become what we make them, give them no attencion and devices that ocupie every second with videoes of self worship and self superiority, they got no skills and more dont know what it takes to become skillfull at something, so ofcorse when they are asked do you know who you are they cant answere, they dont know how to fit in, they dont have the skills to work, be responsible and dont have access to socialize because they are isolated by their parents by sceduals and the passing of ipad.
and then they hear from their teachers, the politicians, the tv, that the reason you dont know who you are is because maybe you are different, uniue, so special that you go beyond biology. ofcorse thats going to interest them after all; its how i feel and i want to be special, unique, but then the answere is not to figure out what your skills are or what activities you are drawn to, instead they give a list of sexualities and ask which one do you feel like you are, and at first many say fluid or asexual, that to me is an indication that the individual is not being troubled by sexuality but rather a lack of understanding where they fit and how they can contribute, not any confusion on how to sexually objectify your self.
Im sorry if that got a bit aggressive, i dont think i was but i often get told i am without knowing but im from iceland and no way i could get away with saying this here, here the shut up and take it because its all your fault mr, and the worship of victemhood is be all end all here
We were all screwed the moment psychologists started reaffirming their patient's psychological delusions for profit.
Speak for yourself
@@firstlast8258huh what you mean?
@@arkjag2991 Does it matter? They offered nothing to start with.
@@firstlast8258 That's literally what everyone does.
Do you have a degree in psychology? It has been empirically proven that transgender people’s brain structures are more aligned with those of the gender they claim to be. It is literally “being born into the wrong body” on a scientific level. Here is just one example of such a study www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/
It astounds me how certain people get all Giddy about segregating this kind from that kind.
Neil has an excellent suggestion that makes perfect sense.
Never mind dividing by Gender, instead use muscle mass, testosterone levels, etc, for different Categories.
Get rid of the old method and employ the new one.
Just suppose your child is the one born different from the rest.
All they want to do is be part of a team & enjoy that camaraderie.
We find more reasons to segregate people than to bring them together.
Why do We do this???
If We use a system like Neil suggests no one is left out, no one is made to feel out of place.
We’re supposed to be Good examples for Our kids to emulate.
So let’s be the best that We can be for the sake of Our kids.
Huh? 😂😂😂😂
Tyson been drinking the Kool aide
Well he is black
@@Ocelot006 racist POS
you sound like you've been drinking too much Lysol.
On the money train
Yes. He is the only one here drinking the kool aid. You have not been influenced to think a certain way whatsoever no sir. You are immune to propaganda, congrats
It is NOT just hormone levels. The separation should be chromosomes. No more Men category and Women category, that is just gender. It should be XX category and YY category. That way you can identify how you want but your chromosomes determine which category you compete in.
what about XXY, XYY, XXXX, XXXY, etc?
@@CueconaFreada good point...
I am open to suggestions
@@randyorr9443my suggestion is scrap the idea. Chromosomes are nowhere near as reliable as people think they are.
Why on earth would chromosomes be a better determining factor than hormone levels?
@@denzellmovies.
Because people with xx are biological female sex and are typically smaller and weaker than people that are biological xy male sex.
That way you can identify any gender you want.
Neil DeGras Tyson... a 'man of science' who doesn't believe in science when he believes it will help his career. Science is an objective truth, not a career choice, Neil.
Well, in another clip from this pod he said that it's not the total lack of humor and insanity that's engulfed college campuses but Bill not adjusting his comedy to them that's the problem. Clearly, Neil just bends any way the wind blows just to stay relevant.
Yes, he's a total shit isn't he.
Correction: he doesn't believe in the science that has been outdated for 30-85 years.
Don't Anglo-Saxon white people also have say in the race debate because that is also a race? I find it weird that Bill said he finds himself removed from that discussion. I assume it's because he is white? Race equality affects everyone because everyone belongs to a race or is mixed race. Shouldn't we strive to include all races in everything?
He's a Jew. He'll play the Jew card when it's in his favor.
Ah Neil, I remember my first drink
Neil is my idol, but, I really wish he would stay in his field and out of politics. Did he really just say level of hormones are the ONLY thing they separate men from women? 😳 🤦🏽♂️
“I’ve been thinking about this more than you think I have.” Hahahaha
😉 we know, neil...
That definitely doesn't mean he arrived at the right conclusion. Lol
@@Fergus-H-MacLeod That assumes there is a right conclusion. Often in science there isn't one.
@@MrBrock314often in science we don’t know one or don’t understand it yet but there is one. Science is not a matter of opinion
@@MrBrock314if the majority of the population say that Pytagoras Theorem is not true it still remains true. The triangle doesn’t care about our opinions
3:40 He lost me there.
I don't really like his idea for sports either, unless that league exists alongside keeping men and women's leagues as well.
This only matters if we still find sports relevant
Neil really missed the mark on this one
"Emergent space" Somebody give me the REAL definition of Neil's phrase "In this Emergent Space"
Racial segregation was about one group having better resources. Gender segregation is about safety.
That… is not how segregation works. Also statistics say that trans people are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to be a victim of sexual assault compared to a predator. It’s not about safety it’s about cis people not wanting to have to see and deal with trans people, don’t hide behind false excuses just admit it
I thought Neil was a smart guy
That's his opinion, that has nothing to do with intelligence
@@unpopular_theories rationality is related to intelligence
The only way hormone levels is an equalizer is pre-puberty. Which is why as an 8 year old there were some girls who were stronger than I was or faster than I was, etc. Once puberty hits, bone structure, lung capacity, muscle fiber, etc. develop differently for males and females. So the only way hormone level categories would be fair would be for trans female athletes to have never gone through puberty…I.e. puberty blockers were used.
Do we really want to create a system where 11 year olds questioning their gender HAVE to decide whether or not they go through puberty for fear of not being able to compete in the gender category they may or may not identify as as adults?
I’m sorry, there is no perfect solution, but every other solution gives an unfair genetic advantage to a microscopic % of the population at the expense of half the population.
And if that wasn’t the case, then why are we only arguing about non contact sports? Why not boxing or MMA?
Maybe it’s because the woke left doesn’t care about women getting their asses kicked unless they ACTUALLY get their asses kicked.
Hey Neil, it's not a good idea for people to take lots of hormones for sports or any other reason, unless the hormones were prescribed to address an imbalance. Hormones are hard on the body and can lead to sterilization of younger people and health problems for older people. Talk to someone in the sciences, Neil, if you can find some who're not drunk on gender dogma. Good luck! I was so wrong to think you knew science - my bad.
He's an astrophysicist - he didn't study biology. For comparison, I studied a biochemistry degree and then went into teaching and I would outrank him in studying biology classes by thousands of hours. And even I wouldn't pretend to be a biology expert.
But, everything humans do is arbitrary so he's not crazy to suggest there are other ways we could split up sports. It's just a matter of whether we, as a society, care to.
In the words of Ryan George, everything comes down to "it's this way, I decided." Humans just made up all the rules that exist in human culture. The real laws are the scientific laws and they don't address this question.
@@MrBrock314 As the old saying goes "I'm not a veterinarian but I know a horse's a** when I see one". In other words, I don't have to have a PHD in biology to know the difference in a man and a woman. I agree that grown adults should be able to do as they wish as long as it doesn't affect others, but to say a transgender male is the same as a biological woman is insane.
It's weird watching someone both try to prove a point while proving themselves wrong. He kept saying no one wants to watch a team blow out another but then doesn't agree with the fact that the weakest team in the NBA wouldn't blow out the best team in the WNBA. The reason they are separate is because the average man in sports is more physically fit than the average female in sports. Which in turn would not be fair. Maybe they should let these things just happen and let them see the result to squash that whole debate.
The point about weight classes is not to make it more enjoyable to the viewer, its to protect the athletes and to make the sport fairer. Trans athletes makes sport unfair for women
Trans men make sports unfair for women? Yeah people are advocating for trans men to face cis men. Y'all are the ones that want men in women's sports, even when they don't want to be there
Tysons mental gymnastics are diabolical
He would win a men's Olympic gold for it, and women's, before everyone realizes it's a load of bs.