Dale - The New Kingdom of Men

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 108

  • @alfieingrouille1528
    @alfieingrouille1528 หลายเดือนก่อน +89

    Despite all the flaws of the hobbit films i love the aesthetic they gave the men of lake town/dale

    • @thomasalvarez6456
      @thomasalvarez6456 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

      Their soundtrack is fantastic too

    • @simontaylor2143
      @simontaylor2143 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

      Giving them a slavic look was an interesting choice. I'd always imagined them and the dwarves having a norse aesthetic, but that may have been too similar to the look of the men of Rohan

    • @zachwalker9420
      @zachwalker9420 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It probably should have been similar, they were practically cousins. But i always imagined them as english, post saxon period but very early middle ages. Likey 11th century.​@simontaylor2143

    • @Cadian-8th-4676
      @Cadian-8th-4676 22 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@zachwalker9420 I always imagined them as Norse or Danish somewhere in the post viking period 11th / 12th century

    • @zachwalker9420
      @zachwalker9420 22 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@Cadian-8th-4676 maybe, tolkien's names, the very few we get, don't really suggest that. But it would work just as well in the setting. It would also make them look practically identical outside of linguistic traditions.

  • @Edward-nf4nc
    @Edward-nf4nc หลายเดือนก่อน +68

    There's no reason to think Dale wouldn't last as long as it had powerful allies, a strong army, and long periods of peace between troubled times. That's how Gondor survived, that's how Dale will survive. Yes, the dwarves and elves will fade over time, but during this time, men, and thus Dale, will get stronger, and without Sauron, peace might come to Rhun and the surrounding lands and people.
    If it can get that strong in 78 years, bust imagine how strong it will be by the time Elessar dies, after 190 years!
    Dale will become a powerful, independent realm of Men!

    • @alfieingrouille1528
      @alfieingrouille1528 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Agreed

    • @timmerk7363
      @timmerk7363 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      Being a strong kingdom is not a guarantee that this specific entity will exist for all times. In real life, a lot of realms are powerful and rise and fall within a few hundred years. You don't need to get invaded, the kingdom can cease to exist because of secessionist movements, that split the realm, or because it is integrated into something else, which can be caused by marriages, pan-movements, etc. Doesn't even need to be violent.

    • @Edward-nf4nc
      @Edward-nf4nc หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      @timmerk7363 very true, but the likelihood of The Kingdom of Dale splitting through infighting or civil war is difficult to see as they are not known as a people of pride or hunger for wealth.
      The Northmen are not known for being a people of greed, but we do know that not all can be trustworthy, as we know some stood with Easterlings against other Northmen and even raided Gondor.
      However, even Wulf and his father didn't want the throne of Rohan originally. Wulf only took it through spite and conquest for revenge, and he used a Dunlending army, not other men of Rohan.
      I can't see Dale splitting up or revolting.

    • @glennross85
      @glennross85 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      Where was Dale when the Westfold fell?

    • @slizzysluzzer
      @slizzysluzzer 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

      The hidden problem with that is that Sauron was artificially keeping the population of men down. Without a Dark Lord and with elves and dwarves hiding away there's nothing stopping people from being people and breeding like flies. LoTR is the bridge to history. At the end of it, history begins. So the long periods of peace that characterized the TA won't happen anymore, because actual history is anything but peaceful. There won't be just one or two enemies to combat, there will be many. People will settle villages, claim landholdings, form polities, and become competition. Available space vanishes quickly. All the empty wildernesses like Eriador and Rhovanion are living on borrowed time. It won't take long.

  • @baizen1
    @baizen1 หลายเดือนก่อน +33

    Still my favorite Tolkien content creator

    • @VicariousReality7
      @VicariousReality7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      *What did he create?*

    • @ibenbentalal9291
      @ibenbentalal9291 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Content 😜

    • @Strideo1
      @Strideo1 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      ​@@ibenbentalal9291Hence content creator, right? 😂

  • @carlambroson8872
    @carlambroson8872 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    The best of the many stories of friendship and loyalty in the legendarium, is the story of King Brand and King Daine fighting the Easterlings.

  • @istari0
    @istari0 หลายเดือนก่อน +20

    I could see Dale easily continuing to expand and becoming a new version of the kingdom of Rhovannion.

    • @celtofcanaanesurix2245
      @celtofcanaanesurix2245 หลายเดือนก่อน

      we can only hope some easterlings stuck around to be a common enemy, otherwise Rohan and Dale might have ended up fighting in the distant future of the fourth age over the plains of Rhovannion

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      There's definitely free real estate to the south and east.

  • @johnycoho7830
    @johnycoho7830 หลายเดือนก่อน +41

    He was willing to give treasures to the men, but not under threat of force. But Thorin did not want the elves to get anything.

    • @wilhelmrk
      @wilhelmrk หลายเดือนก่อน +8

      Understandable, the Elves at least did nothing to deserve it.

    • @alanpennie8013
      @alanpennie8013 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​@@wilhelmrk
      It was one of those unfortunate situations where everyone had a good case, except Thranduil who was just greedy.
      The movie did rehabilitate him.

    • @SNWWRNNG
      @SNWWRNNG หลายเดือนก่อน +10

      ​​​@@alanpennie8013The opposite, the movies smeared Thranduil by making him xenophobic and greedy.
      Book Thranduil saved many Lakemen, never demanded any payment from Bard or Thorin, was reluctant to fight over treasure unlike the others, and became Bilbo's friend.
      The Hobbit even comes out and just says that Elves are good people directly.

    • @JurzGarz
      @JurzGarz หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      It was not unreasonable for the Lake-Men to believe that Thorin would simply refuse to negotiate if they couldn’t back up their claims with armed force.

    • @christophernemeth421
      @christophernemeth421 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​@@SNWWRNNGin the movie Thranduil did give food and aid to the people of Laketown

  • @tilltronje1623
    @tilltronje1623 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

    Have you ever wondered which member of the Fellowship would have fallen to the Ring after Boromir? Who would be the most vulnerable to corruption?
    I would live a video on that!

    • @davidrosenfeld9063
      @davidrosenfeld9063 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I think it would be as interesting to see if Old Man Willow got the ring

    • @tilltronje1623
      @tilltronje1623 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @davidrosenfeld9063 not even Eru would be safe!

  • @Clyde-S-Wilcox
    @Clyde-S-Wilcox หลายเดือนก่อน +82

    Thorin did nothing wrong. The Elves had no business bring at Erebor, even when you leave out the matter of indefinite imprisonment for... checks notes... unintentional trespass and false claims of assault.

    • @SNWWRNNG
      @SNWWRNNG หลายเดือนก่อน +21

      The Elves were there to support Bard and had saved many lives. Thranduil didn't demand any treasure from Thorin or Bard.
      Thorin sat on dragon-cursed treasure partly stolen from the Men of Dale and refused to give any of it, using his hatred of elves as an excuse to perpetuate Smaug's crime of robbing Dale.
      Bilbo and Gandalf both saw Thorin as in the wrong - even Thorin himself became critical of his own behaviour on his deathbed.

    • @JurzGarz
      @JurzGarz หลายเดือนก่อน +16

      Thorin could’ve just agreed to the Lake-Men’s very reasonable demand for compensation and saved himself a lot of trouble.

    • @capadociaash8003
      @capadociaash8003 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@JurzGarzdale was a rich kingdom, a not insignificant part of that gold was theirs but Thorin was overcome with greed

    • @glamourweaver
      @glamourweaver หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      The elves weren’t owed anything by the dwarves but the men of Dale certainly were! They’d just suffered a dragon attack that Thorin’s company provoked, and took out said dragon allowing the dwarves to retake Erembour!

  • @markstott6689
    @markstott6689 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    PJ, Philippa and Fran ought to do a film based upon the Battle of Dale and the attacks on Lothlorien and Thranduil.😊❤😊

    • @Disgruntled_Dave
      @Disgruntled_Dave หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I'd certainly rather see them do that than try to stretch the hunt for Gollum into a feature-length film. There's much more material to draw on and a great deal more action.

    • @markstott6689
      @markstott6689 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @Disgruntled_Dave Unfortunately, we're getting the hunt for Gollum whether we want it or not.

    • @Disgruntled_Dave
      @Disgruntled_Dave หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@markstott6689 Don't get me wrong, that could still make a for a good movie. It's just, there's already a fan-made _Hunt for Gollum_ film, so this just feels like re-treading old ground. If Jackson & Co. are gonna get the old crew back together, there's a lot of better stuff they could be doing

  • @PeculiarNotions
    @PeculiarNotions หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Thank you. I always love hearing about the northern lands.

  • @ИлијаГајић-ю4ф
    @ИлијаГајић-ю4ф หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Love your videos!

  • @kaosdevice
    @kaosdevice หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Excellent, I've always wished there was more in the legendarium about this area post the Hobbit.

  • @MerryMohProductions
    @MerryMohProductions หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    You think Thorin would’ve been more complacent if the elves didn’t arrive (for some reason) or if they departed?

  • @dominus1444
    @dominus1444 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Really hope we get to see some more Canon adjacent videos. Specifically lore from merp would be super interesting. I hope to see Bellakar on this channel one day.

  • @pwmiles56
    @pwmiles56 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

    According to Balin, the new Master "gets most of the credit for the current prosperity" (Hobbit, 'The Last Stage'). This can only mean that the new Master is Bard. Probably he keeps the title out of respect for the traditions of Laketown, but now it is hereditary. Like it or not, Tolkien preferred monarchy to democracy (and he makes the people of Laketown prefer it too).

    • @cynfaelalek-walker7003
      @cynfaelalek-walker7003 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

      I live in a democracy which used to be a monarchy, now that we've lived under democracy everyone wants monarchy back.

    • @Not-Ap
      @Not-Ap หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      ​@@cynfaelalek-walker7003Monarchy and really anything feudal is always a gamble. Talent tends to skip a generation or two with many people including royalty. So even if you get 95 years of wise uninterrupted peace/prosperity you could get 95 more the next generation with the opposite undoing everything the previous ruler did.

    • @cynfaelalek-walker7003
      @cynfaelalek-walker7003 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      @Not-Ap everything's a gamble, learned that the hard way.

    • @neildaly2635
      @neildaly2635 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      I am not sure Bard was the new master of Laketown. My understanding was that he re-established the kingdom of Dale.

    • @pwmiles56
      @pwmiles56 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@neildaly2635 Kings can have many titles, referring to their different territories. The present King Charles is (informally) Duke of Normandy (for the Channel Islands) and (formally) Lord of Mann (for the Isle of Man).

  • @cavetroll666
    @cavetroll666 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    thanks for this video i love how Lord of the Rings Online did this area i wish now it had a river running going now down to the sea of Rhun and Dorwinion..maybe a further update.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Yeah, I was interested in seeing Rhun, but seeing Harad has been cool as well.

  • @WhoIsCalli
    @WhoIsCalli หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thanks

  • @justthinkingoutloud2538
    @justthinkingoutloud2538 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    1:35 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's any evidence that the Beornings were a race all possessing the inherent ability to shape-shift. I think it's a point up for speculation, but I believe Beorn, along with his fathers and children, possessed a rare gift/talent/curse not unique to them, perhaps granted to many men at one time by powers of sorcery. The Beornings are, I believe, just the men of the Anduin who would come to call Beorn and his descendents their chieftain, and they did not share this ability.

    • @tiltskillet7085
      @tiltskillet7085 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Since DG talks about the ambiguity around the definition of Beorning in another video (Middle-earth Mysteries - The Beornings) I think the implication that the _realm_ of the Beornings was populated by a bunch of skinchangers was purely accidental.

    • @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ
      @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Since the term "Beornings" means both "descendants of Beorn" (some of whom were able to turn into bears) and "followers of Beorn" (who were regular humans), it is rather vague.

  • @otaku-sempai2197
    @otaku-sempai2197 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Dale isn't as new as you initially imply. You point out, yourself, that the city has existed at least as long as the kingdom of Erebor (founded in Third Age 1999. Although laid to ruin by the dragon Smaug in 2770, it was restored around the year 2945 under King Bard I.

    • @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ
      @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      As far as I understand, there are 3 meanings of "Dale" in Tolkien's writings.
      1. The valley of Dale - the valley between southern arms of the Lonely Mountain. That valley, obviously, existed for a very long time. "The folk of Dale" initially meant the group of Northmen inhabiting that valley.
      2. The town of Dale (or sometimes "in Dale") - the town built by the Northmen living in the valley. It was built after the re-establishing of the kingdom of Erebor by king Thror in TA2590. That the town was built during that period is clearly stated in "The Hobbit". This town was ruined by Smaug and later re-built by Bard.
      3. The kingdom of Dale, that was created by Bard. The rulers of the town of Dale before the attack of the dragon were titled "lords", not "kings" (Lord Girion, for example), so hypothetically there might exist "the lordship of Dale" during that time-period, but as far as I know this term was not used by Tolkien.

    • @otaku-sempai2197
      @otaku-sempai2197 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ Thanks for the correction in regards to the founding of Dale; it's been a while since my last re-read of The Hobbit. I think it's debatable, though, whether or not Dale was a kingdom between the period from 2590 to 2770.

    • @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ
      @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@otaku-sempai2197 It seems that the "town and lordship of Dale" were mentioned by Tolkien once in "The Tale of Years of the Third Age", so it is reasonable to assume that it was the official name of that polity. It is hard to guess why Girion and his ancestors weren't kings - maybe they were vassals of the dwarven kingdom of Erebor?

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@otaku-sempai2197 Girion is called "Lord", and the Master states that the Men of Lake-town always chose their own rulers. This is what leads me to believe that Dale didn't officially become a kingdom until Bard. It seemed to be more of a city-state until then.

    • @otaku-sempai2197
      @otaku-sempai2197 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@DarthGandalfYTHow Lake-town was governed does not necessarily reflect how Dale was ruled. That doesn't mean that you're wrong, but it does leave some room for interpretation.

  • @kineticstar
    @kineticstar หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    That there some fine telling of how Dale and his pocket sand ancestors made it to Texas I tell you wut! - Boomhauer

    • @colcommissar23
      @colcommissar23 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      It was during the final battle if Dale that the Dalians utilized pocket sand to escape into Erebor.

  • @lastofrwby8395
    @lastofrwby8395 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Please do a video on the forgotten valar.

  • @MikolajKnas
    @MikolajKnas หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    I have a problem with this ammount of gold. Like... Bard got mountain of money and rebuild city... how exactly? Where he bought all these things needed for whole kingdom? It's too much gold for such poor region.

    • @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ
      @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Imagine a young farmer living somewhere in the vales of Running River, who has heard about the new king, Bard the Dragon-Slayer, who is rich in gold and rewards followers freely. He could live in his hamlet for the rest of his life, herding sheep and tilling earth... Or he could join Bard's retainers and guard his realm, armed with weapons and armor made from dwarven steel in Iron Hills, and during feasts sit at king's table, filling his golden cup with the best wine from Dorvinion. Obviously there will be very many recruits into Bard's retinue.
      Now, maybe some farmers do not want to become warriors - but now they hear that there is a realm guarded by valiant warriors with dwarven weapons, led by Bard the Dragon-Slayer himself, and there is a lot of fertile land there. It is better to herd sheep and till earth under such protection rather than live in small hamlets under constant threat of attacks of goblins, wolves, bandits or other enemies. Thus the valley of Dale becomes rich and tilled, with enough food for farmers and for retainers and for trade with the dwarves.
      And where is trade there are merchants and craftsmen - especially considering that Bard and his retainers want to buy the best goods available. Now Bard only has to pay dwarven masons to build his palace, houses for townsfolk and a wall around to get a proper town.

    • @backwashjoe7864
      @backwashjoe7864 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Yeah, check out Spain in the decades following their plundering of the New World of gold and riches, to see what would have happened to Dale.

    • @VkmSpouge
      @VkmSpouge 22 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      How Bard went about re-building Dale and Laketown is an interesting question.
      First they need Labour, that's easy because most of Laketown's population survived and need new employment. And people from out-lying communities might also be tempted in once they hear how good the pay is.
      Second they all need to be fed. Laketown must have had quite a fishing industry, so that could continue. Fruit, veg and livestock were probably all imported from surrounding farmland and villages and maybe as far as the Sea of Rhun. Using the money Dale has now can pay for that trade to continue.
      Finally they need building materials. Thankfully there are a load of Dwarves nearby who are fantastic at stonecutting, and I doubt Thranduil will mind too much if a few hectares of spider infested Mirkwood was cut down to re-build Laketown.

    • @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ
      @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ 22 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@VkmSpouge I completely agree. It seems that there were woods (as well as fields and cattle-pastures) around Lake-town: "the people of Esgaroth ... had really much to be thankful for... : ... their woods and fields and pastures and cattle ... remained undamaged". And the Wood-elves were not against cutting trees in general and even cut some trees themselves: "some men of crafts and many skilled elves ... busied themselves felling trees, and collecting the timber sent down from the Forest" - so as far as I understand, Mirkwood exported timber. Here it is sent as a "humanitarian aid" to rebuilt the destroyed town, but it is very likely that timber was one of the goods the Elves were selling to buy wine, apples and so on.

  • @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ
    @АнтонОрлов-я1ъ หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Why didn't you mention in that video the "problem" you had mentioned in your video about demography - that there were not enough people to establish a kingdom? You did mention here the solution for it, though - there were other Men inhabiting those areas and they gathered to the rebuilt city of Dale from South and West and later the kingdom expanded over populated areas.
    Another thing I want to point out that while it is generally assumed that there were only Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and Dwarves of the Iron Hills in the North-East of the Middle-Earth during the late Third Age, but it is actually not the case. In "The Hobbit" Thorin asked Rac the raven to "send messengers to our kin in the mountains of the North, both west from here and east", and later it is stated that "by that time yet more dwarves might come, and yet more, for Thorin had many relatives". Who were those relatives of Thorin and where exactly they lived is unknown, although Dain dwelt nearest to the Lonely Mountain. So maybe those mysterious relatives lived somewhere beyond the borders of the map - but close enough to send military aid and so also presumably to trade. I think that this fact somewhat changes our understanding of political situation in that region. It also demonstrates that there are only vague hints pointing at existence of many groups that inhabited Middle-Earth.

  • @hariseldon3786
    @hariseldon3786 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Even the Kingdom of Men only survived a generation bc without women there were no further descendants and despite its great glory and achieving harmony (with MMA) it declined and finally died as women were needed...

  • @Crafty_Spirit
    @Crafty_Spirit หลายเดือนก่อน

    I find it a bit strange that Smaug would eat manflesh. Isn't gold enough to sustain him? If not, how did he feed over the decades at Erebor?

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I'm not sure. Perhaps Dragons burn very little energy when hibernating.

  • @christostefan
    @christostefan 15 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Just like Chicago

  • @boneless_chicken1
    @boneless_chicken1 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    i know this sounds crazy but hear me out guys & gals. What if Gandalf ........ had a car!

    • @markstott6689
      @markstott6689 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Stuff that. Give Gandalf a Leopard 2 A7. 😂😂😂

    • @istari0
      @istari0 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Not much in the way of a road system or gas stations so it wouldn't be all that useful.

    • @markstott6689
      @markstott6689 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@istari0 It's Gandalf. It's powered by the Eternal Flame.
      N.B. Manwe will be having strong words later over the misuse of the Flame Imperishable. 😂😂😂

    • @istari0
      @istari0 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@markstott6689 I can just see Ilúvatar now lecturing Gandalf that he wasn't sent back to Middle-Earth to go hot rodding over the countryside.

    • @markstott6689
      @markstott6689 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @istari0 Gandalf's response would be, "...but, but it got the job done, didn't it. And anyway, you're the one who sent me back as Gandalf the White. I was the one who had 50,000 orcs to deal with. Executive decision and all that. Plus, don't knock it until you've tried it. (Whispering now) Do you fancy going out for a cheeky spin? It really is great fun!"

  • @johnwiles4391
    @johnwiles4391 หลายเดือนก่อน

    LOL "Gribblereich"!

  • @jordanmontgomery8029
    @jordanmontgomery8029 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I can show you how to make a pipe bomb with a roll of toilet paper

    • @backwashjoe7864
      @backwashjoe7864 หลายเดือนก่อน

      … and a stick of dynamite.

  • @romandacil3984
    @romandacil3984 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Pretty much nailed it. Though Peter Jackson butchered it.