Picking up on some posts below, the total absence of Dol Amroth/Dor-en-Ernil during the accounts of the Kin-strife, either in the final published form or the drafts is a fascinating lacuna. I've written an essay previously on the Kin-strife and covered this issue as an addendum. In short, I concluded that Tolkien was indeed intensely interested in where this principality fitted into the history of Gondor, both prior to the publication of the First Edition of The Lord of the Rings (during the drafting of the Appendices) and again, in what is often called his 'last/later writings' phase, ie. after the publication of The Lord of the Rings and towards the end of his life. In neither case could I find that Tolkien took the opportunity to insert Dol Amroth/Dor-en-Ernil into a Kin-strife narrative - not even during the extensive re-working of the Appendices for the Second Edition. I agree that a reader can fairly easily get to a syncretic reconstruction in which it can be assumed, 'in-world', that Dol Amroth/Dor-en-Ernil sided with or at last didn't side against the Loyalists. However, while many of the provinces and locales of Gondor are explicitly named as being on one side or the other at various points during the Kin-strife (Pelargir, Umbar, "the southern provinces", Ithilien, Calenardhon, Anórien, Minas Anor), in contrast the 'feigned historian' recounting the history of this civil war omitted the existence, let alone allegiance, of one of the most important fiefs in Gondor, Dol Amroth. I concluded, in turn, that this was both baffling and probably just the product of a good old fashioned unintentional oversight on the part of the Professor - certainly not rare in the vastness of Tolkien's legendarium and completely forgivable, given the scale at which he was operating on!
It is fascinating to think about the complex web of polities, economics, and population/cultures that exist within Tolkein's world. The Knights of Dol Amroth and the Grey Company are the two factions I wish had been included in Jackson's adaptations.
Dol Amroth could've easily been the successors to Gondor after Eärnur got killed at Minas Morghul, filling the role of "heir to Isildur" as well as being related descendants to House Anárion but for some reason House Húrin (the house of Stewards) came beforehand. If they had taken up the banners of Gondor, then perhaps the Great Kingdom of the South would've been more prepared for Sauron's takeover than in otl's LOTR.
Well, for the first several years, there was still hope the king could potentially return. The Stewards were thus already in power by the time everyone realized the King was not coming back.
They were not direct descendants of Elendil, though. And there were other powerful lords and princes, some of whom were direct descendants of Elendil. So if princes of Dol Amroth decided to claim kingship, there definitely would be another kin-strife.
@@SirBolsón Stewards were effectively kings in all aspects except the title, at least by the time of Denethor. I believe Stewards had way less authority than kings among the lords when they begun to rule, so they didn't risk to declare themselves kings. By the time of Denethor the title of Steward became traditional and Gondorians were very fond of traditions. So "in Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" to make a steward into a king, as Denethor said to Boromir.
Another awesome regional study, thanks for all the work and for posting this! When you touched on the role/place of the Prince of dol Amroth in the Reunited Kingdom, under Elessar Telcontar, I was reminded by a passage Tolkien wrote on the topic, indirectly concerned with Imrahil, as recorded in Letter 244. There we have a couple of interesting snippets, written in the context of Faramir's post-Restoration role: "Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor..." & "The chief commanders, under the King [Elessar], would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence." The inference being clear that the dynasty in Dol Amroth and the Hurinionath both had/retained super-magnate status in the Reunited Kingdom, at both territorial and office-holder levels.
Imrahil is one of my favorite characters. An exemplary leader and warrior. Doesn’t Legolas say that Imrahil is evidence that elven blood still flows in the veins of men?
2:57 I don't think "regardless" is appropriate -- the Princes retaining their power and importance is a pretty good indication that they were a loyalist house, since they neither fled to Umbar nor were stripped of their lands and/or titles by Eldacar. And Dol Amroth being a seat of naval power is not a mark against that, but actually supports it. Castamir's power base was specifically in Pelargir; Dol Amroth, being a competing maritime center, would tend to back its competitor's opponents in the hope of seeing its competitor weakened relative to itself. Think Pisa versus Genoa.
Tolkien said that he was supported "by the people of the coasts and of the great havens of Pelargir and Umbar", and since "falas" in Belfalas means "coast" or "shore", people of Belfalas are most likely considered among the "people of the coasts". Later the supporters of Eldacar came from Calenardhon, Anorien and Ithilien, not Belfalas. However, it is said that Castamir was an unpopular king and that his support dwindled, but at the same time Castamir wanted to remove the capital into Pelargir, and his sons defended Pelargir for a year and later fled to Umbar, so I assume Pelargir and Umbar continued to support Castamir. So it is reasonable to suggest that it were "people of the coasts" (and princes of Belfalas among them), who stopped to support Castamir during his reign. Probably the prince of Belfalas was very unhappy that Ornendil was killed - it is one thing to rebel against the king and completely another to execute a person of royal bloodline. Maybe Castamir was defeated at the Crossings of Erui because the knights of Belfalas didn't help him (or even switched sides). This may also explain why the House of Belfalas remained in power after Eldacar regained his throne.
DG, have you thought about including more notes about sources as you dig more into material that only exists outside the works published in JRRT's lifetime? I'm not saying you're obligated to do so, let alone that you need to start recording interminable _"...as explained by CRRT in HOME IX, page 241 of the the first Houghton Mifflin edition"_ asides, and so on. Just that it might be useful to provide some info about sources. Perhaps just on the screen before or after the patron credits, or maybe just in the video info box.
@@JustLikeTheSimulations Don't forget the legendary tribe of never seen before Amazonian mountain riders who teach the Rohirrim how to ride against the Mumakil.
@@JustLikeTheSimulations especially because they teased one thing a few years ago claiming it was about Hammerhand and the origins of Helm’s Deep , only to come out of the blew saying it’s not about Helm at all but instead his daughter who wasn’t even named in Tolkien’s Legendarium. Sure there is a chance it could still be enjoyable, but this bait and switch makes me very skeptical
This concerns me. They said one thing initially but the trailer makes it look like the story will focus more on the daughter, Héra. That's not the story I got excited about. My enthusiasm for this has been greatly diminished.
I was interested in that, and after researching found out that there is virtually nothing on them on the second age. Not even in the Last alliance. We can make few educated guesses. But other than that it would be fanfiction
I do not think prince Imrahil ruled Gondor after the death of Denethor. He led the Gondorian contingent in the army of Aragorn, but he already was in command of Gondorian forces even when Denethor was alive. Meanwhile Lord Hurin the Tall, Warden of the Keys was the ruler of the city of Minas Tirith - maybe because Imrahil was with Aragorn. It seems that Hurin was from the line of Stewards, since it was known as "the House of Hurin". And Gondor as a whole had no actual ruler at that time. Also it is interesting to note that Imrahil had some knowledge in medicine. You mentioned that he determined that Eowyn was alive. But he also drew arrow that hit Faramir and staunched his wound, and that seems to indicate some actual medical skills. As for the interesting question of the role of the Princes of Belfalas in the Kin-Strife, it seems pretty clear to me that they initially supported Castamir. It is said that he was supported "by the people of the coasts and of the great havens of Pelargir and Umbar", and since "falas" in Belfalas means "coast" or "shore", people of Belfalas are most likely considered among the "people of the coasts". Later the supporters of Eldacar came from Calenardhon, Anorien and Ithilien, not Belfalas. However, it is said that Castamir was an unpopular king and that his support dwindled, but at the same time Castamir wanted to remove the capital into Pelargir, and his sons defended Pelargir for a year and later fled to Umbar, so I assume Pelargir and Umbar continued to support Castamir. So it is reasonable to suggest that it were "people of the coasts" (and princes of Belfalas among them), who stopped to support Castamir during his reign. Probably the prince of Belfalas was very unhappy that Ornendil was killed - it is one thing to rebel against the king and completely another to execute a person of royal bloodline. Maybe Castamir was defeated at the Crossings of Erui because the knights of Belfalas didn't help him (or even switched sides). This may also explain why the House of Belfalas remained in power after Eldacar regained his throne.
Do the descendants of the Elven handmaiden [Mifrelas?] and The Numenorian [Imrazor?] get the mortal/immortal choice of the half-elven like Elrond and his kin?
It is said that after the choice was given to Elrond and Elros, any other offspring with any mortal blood (Elrond is not counted, as he is considered n Eldar, so his children get the choice) were counted as mortals. So, no choice.
This is a question I've had for a while. Does the apparent marriage between Imrazor and Mithrellas essentially contradict the common fan refrain that "there were only three marriages between elves and men"? Is the latter claim based off a misinterpretation of something Tolkien wrote, or is this an example of one of the contradictions that occasionally crop up in the Legendarium?
I've always interpreted that the three unions were exceptional as in all 3 cases, both the spouses chose to share the same fate (they were given the choice). (Tuor became elf and Luthien and Arwen became mortal) Finrod doesn't say the Union is forbidden, he just says it's unwise (mostly referencing the differing fate) I guess some elf and man were wed through the ages (maybe even Avari and easterlings)
Maybe whoever said that in world did not know about this. Also, it may be that this union was not official, or maybe not even consensual, as indicated by the elf fleeing into the night at the first opportunity.
@@AntoninHamstra She doesn't flee into the night at the first opportunity, though, she does it after bearing two children. Furthermore, if it was non-consensual, that doesn't real fit with the general depiction of the House of Dol Amroth as being stand up guys.
So does Tolkien have canon for whether an elf like mithiriel can ever go to valinor and stay immortal or did having human children lead her to become mortal?
@@istari0 Did Idril also leave without raising Earendil (i forget she was on the run, right?). So is this a theme where elf mothers need to leave middle earth without raising their children? Then arwen gave up immortality simply because she married someone too late in the third age when no more ships could take her to valinor? And whatever happened to Luthien did she die as well?
@@eumaies Eärendil was still a child when Tuor and Idril went to Valinor. But it was the Valar who forbade them returning to Middle-Earth so I don't think it was intentional. Arwen gave up her immortality because all the children of Elrond were given the choice to at some point decide to be Elven and live as an Elf or decide to be mortal and live as a Man, which is what she decided when she agreed to marry Aragorn. I supposed she could have chosen to remain an Elf and stay in Middle-Earth but then she, just like any other Elf that never left for Valinor would fade over time. When Lúthien was offered the possibility of her and Beren being sent back to Middle-Earth, it was to live and die as mortal Men, which is the choice she made. So, she eventually died and her spirit passed beyond the Circles of the World.
Elves' and men's fate were strictly fixed and only a handful were given the choice by the Valar by the permission of the Eru (ultimately it's Eru that changes their fate, Valar are just messengers here) So every elf is Imortal and every man mortal, except those few...
I heard that due to Arda marred the lifespans of the Dúnedain decreased but did the lifespans of the Princes of Belfalas decrease during the second age, due to Arda marred?
The original Númenoreans were given expanded life spans (thrice that of normal men) by Eönwë when they settled Númenor and the line of Elros was given even longer life. It wasn't due to Arda marred although I would think that played a role in those extended life spans shrinking as the Númenor became more corrupted over the millenia.
@@istari0 Well I understand that the only landmasses that were not affected by Arda marred were Númenor (because it was raised after Morgoth's fall) and Valinor. The shortening of the Númenorean lifespans was because of the increasing blasphemy and hatred of the Númenoreans for the Valar, as they desired immortality more and more. It is also the reason why the Faithful retained their longer lifespans for longer. Elendil and Ar-Pharazôn were of similar age, Elendil being born in 3119 and Ar-Pharazôn being born in 3118, but while'st Ar-Pharazôn felt his life coming to an end at around 190, which led to him building the great armament (as Sauron said that he could grab immortality by attacking Valinor), Elendil lived for another 121 years and still being fit enough to lead his armies. The house of Belfalas while'st not falling to the shadow, they still lived in Middle-Earth for more than a thousand years, so they should have encountered a shortening of their lifespans similar to the decline of the rest of the Dúnedain in the third age.
I get why they were left out of the movie, but I wish they hadn’t been. I have the concept art book and the knights look so cool. Plus the prince is one of my favorite characters
I always thought the 3 marriages were between the Edain and High Elves/the Noldor, and that the marriage of Mithrellas was between an Edain and a Sindar Elf. I can’t remember what gave me that impression, maybe someone can help me out if I’m correct
There were three marriages between the Edain and the Eldar. Considering that Numenoreans definitely were Edain, that means Mithrellas probably was (considered?) Avari.
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ In PoME Tolkien refers to her as a "Silvan" elf, and in a few different places that's defined as of Nandorin descent. Which would put them in the broader Eldar category. I'm not saying that's definitive at all: this is all from works published after JRRT's death, and I haven't dug into it to any great depth. But I'm inclined to think the choice of the Half-Elven was not an eternal grant, and only applied to the children of unions in existence before it was issued, and also the descendants of those who had chosen the Firstborn, apparently up until the end of the Third Age. This wouldn't apply to the children of Mithrellas and their descendants, by virtue of that union happening later on, regardless of her status as Eldar or not. That's my divine legalese headcanon for now, at least!
@@tiltskillet7085 Yeah, I also think that Mithrellas was Silvan/Nandorin, but the line between Silvan Elves and Avari is not very clear, since there was some mixture between the Western Avari (from the tribe called Penni) and the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien. Maybe Mithrellas was (partly?) of Avari descend and thus was not considered among Eldar. And yeah, I completely agree that the choice of the Half-Elven was was granted specifically to Earendil, Elving. Elros, Elrond and Elrond's children. It seems that in other cases (such as the case of Mithrellas) the children of elves and men were automatically considered mortal humans, not immortal elves.
Dol Amroth is easily the most interesting and enigmatic corners of the realms of the Edain. As the Tolkien estate allows more and more mucking about within the world, Dol Amroth deserves to be explored further.
Hi Darth!
Ah yes, the year was 1980. Disco ruled the charts and dwarves woke the balrog.
And it attacked Tokyo.
Shake, shake, shake. Shake, shake, shake. Shake your balrog!
Simply among the best LoTR themed channels there are. Keep up the great work DG.
When I was first reading LOTR’s, I always loved that we had a character enter the story that was called a prince in Gondor
Picking up on some posts below, the total absence of Dol Amroth/Dor-en-Ernil during the accounts of the Kin-strife, either in the final published form or the drafts is a fascinating lacuna. I've written an essay previously on the Kin-strife and covered this issue as an addendum. In short, I concluded that Tolkien was indeed intensely interested in where this principality fitted into the history of Gondor, both prior to the publication of the First Edition of The Lord of the Rings (during the drafting of the Appendices) and again, in what is often called his 'last/later writings' phase, ie. after the publication of The Lord of the Rings and towards the end of his life. In neither case could I find that Tolkien took the opportunity to insert Dol Amroth/Dor-en-Ernil into a Kin-strife narrative - not even during the extensive re-working of the Appendices for the Second Edition. I agree that a reader can fairly easily get to a syncretic reconstruction in which it can be assumed, 'in-world', that Dol Amroth/Dor-en-Ernil sided with or at last didn't side against the Loyalists. However, while many of the provinces and locales of Gondor are explicitly named as being on one side or the other at various points during the Kin-strife (Pelargir, Umbar, "the southern provinces", Ithilien, Calenardhon, Anórien, Minas Anor), in contrast the 'feigned historian' recounting the history of this civil war omitted the existence, let alone allegiance, of one of the most important fiefs in Gondor, Dol Amroth. I concluded, in turn, that this was both baffling and probably just the product of a good old fashioned unintentional oversight on the part of the Professor - certainly not rare in the vastness of Tolkien's legendarium and completely forgivable, given the scale at which he was operating on!
I’m a simple man, i see darth Gandalf I click
It is fascinating to think about the complex web of polities, economics, and population/cultures that exist within Tolkein's world.
The Knights of Dol Amroth and the Grey Company are the two factions I wish had been included in Jackson's adaptations.
Dol Amroth could've easily been the successors to Gondor after Eärnur got killed at Minas Morghul, filling the role of "heir to Isildur" as well as being related descendants to House Anárion but for some reason House Húrin (the house of Stewards) came beforehand. If they had taken up the banners of Gondor, then perhaps the Great Kingdom of the South would've been more prepared for Sauron's takeover than in otl's LOTR.
Well, for the first several years, there was still hope the king could potentially return.
The Stewards were thus already in power by the time everyone realized the King was not coming back.
They were not direct descendants of Elendil, though. And there were other powerful lords and princes, some of whom were direct descendants of Elendil. So if princes of Dol Amroth decided to claim kingship, there definitely would be another kin-strife.
@huntclanhunt9697 Millennia of Kingless rule is pretty mind-boggling, though.
@@SirBolsón Stewards were effectively kings in all aspects except the title, at least by the time of Denethor. I believe Stewards had way less authority than kings among the lords when they begun to rule, so they didn't risk to declare themselves kings. By the time of Denethor the title of Steward became traditional and Gondorians were very fond of traditions. So "in Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" to make a steward into a king, as Denethor said to Boromir.
@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ Which is why Denethor opposed Aragorn, as he was pretty Traditionalist overall.
Wonderful! Thanks for these excellent videos.
Another awesome regional study, thanks for all the work and for posting this! When you touched on the role/place of the Prince of dol Amroth in the Reunited Kingdom, under Elessar Telcontar, I was reminded by a passage Tolkien wrote on the topic, indirectly concerned with Imrahil, as recorded in Letter 244. There we have a couple of interesting snippets, written in the context of Faramir's post-Restoration role: "Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor..." & "The chief commanders, under the King [Elessar], would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence." The inference being clear that the dynasty in Dol Amroth and the Hurinionath both had/retained super-magnate status in the Reunited Kingdom, at both territorial and office-holder levels.
Imrahil is one of my favorite characters. An exemplary leader and warrior. Doesn’t Legolas say that Imrahil is evidence that elven blood still flows in the veins of men?
This is a video I never knew I really needed in my life
Thanks for the video I love how they did this zone in Lotro
Idk why but I’m so fascinated by Adunaic. I would really love a video about it
2:57 I don't think "regardless" is appropriate -- the Princes retaining their power and importance is a pretty good indication that they were a loyalist house, since they neither fled to Umbar nor were stripped of their lands and/or titles by Eldacar. And Dol Amroth being a seat of naval power is not a mark against that, but actually supports it. Castamir's power base was specifically in Pelargir; Dol Amroth, being a competing maritime center, would tend to back its competitor's opponents in the hope of seeing its competitor weakened relative to itself. Think Pisa versus Genoa.
Exactly what I thought. It's almost given than the prince of Belfalast would support the King to their utmost ability
Tolkien said that he was supported "by the people of the coasts and of the great havens of Pelargir and Umbar", and since "falas" in Belfalas means "coast" or "shore", people of Belfalas are most likely considered among the "people of the coasts". Later the supporters of Eldacar came from Calenardhon, Anorien and Ithilien, not Belfalas.
However, it is said that Castamir was an unpopular king and that his support dwindled, but at the same time Castamir wanted to remove the capital into Pelargir, and his sons defended Pelargir for a year and later fled to Umbar, so I assume Pelargir and Umbar continued to support Castamir.
So it is reasonable to suggest that it were "people of the coasts" (and princes of Belfalas among them), who stopped to support Castamir during his reign. Probably the prince of Belfalas was very unhappy that Ornendil was killed - it is one thing to rebel against the king and completely another to execute a person of royal bloodline. Maybe Castamir was defeated at the Crossings of Erui because the knights of Belfalas didn't help him (or even switched sides). This may also explain why the House of Belfalas remained in power after Eldacar regained his throne.
Do about mystery city of Tarnost!
DG, have you thought about including more notes about sources as you dig more into material that only exists outside the works published in JRRT's lifetime? I'm not saying you're obligated to do so, let alone that you need to start recording interminable _"...as explained by CRRT in HOME IX, page 241 of the the first Houghton Mifflin edition"_ asides, and so on. Just that it might be useful to provide some info about sources. Perhaps just on the screen before or after the patron credits, or maybe just in the video info box.
Curious what your thoughts are on the War of the Rohirrim focusing on Helm’s unnamed daughter instead of Helm Hammerhand himself
Me too. I won’t outright complain about something I haven’t seen, but that was an odd choice to say the least.
@@JustLikeTheSimulations Don't forget the legendary tribe of never seen before Amazonian mountain riders who teach the Rohirrim how to ride against the Mumakil.
@@JustLikeTheSimulations especially because they teased one thing a few years ago claiming it was about Hammerhand and the origins of Helm’s Deep , only to come out of the blew saying it’s not about Helm at all but instead his daughter who wasn’t even named in Tolkien’s Legendarium. Sure there is a chance it could still be enjoyable, but this bait and switch makes me very skeptical
This concerns me. They said one thing initially but the trailer makes it look like the story will focus more on the daughter, Héra. That's not the story I got excited about. My enthusiasm for this has been greatly diminished.
@@istari0 And at least give her a linguistically correct name, dammit!
You should make a video on the ringwraiths in the second age
I’ve heard they appeared then and I’m interested what they were doing in the second age
I was interested in that, and after researching found out that there is virtually nothing on them on the second age. Not even in the Last alliance. We can make few educated guesses. But other than that it would be fanfiction
I do not think prince Imrahil ruled Gondor after the death of Denethor. He led the Gondorian contingent in the army of Aragorn, but he already was in command of Gondorian forces even when Denethor was alive. Meanwhile Lord Hurin the Tall, Warden of the Keys was the ruler of the city of Minas Tirith - maybe because Imrahil was with Aragorn. It seems that Hurin was from the line of Stewards, since it was known as "the House of Hurin". And Gondor as a whole had no actual ruler at that time.
Also it is interesting to note that Imrahil had some knowledge in medicine. You mentioned that he determined that Eowyn was alive. But he also drew arrow that hit Faramir and staunched his wound, and that seems to indicate some actual medical skills.
As for the interesting question of the role of the Princes of Belfalas in the Kin-Strife, it seems pretty clear to me that they initially supported Castamir. It is said that he was supported "by the people of the coasts and of the great havens of Pelargir and Umbar", and since "falas" in Belfalas means "coast" or "shore", people of Belfalas are most likely considered among the "people of the coasts". Later the supporters of Eldacar came from Calenardhon, Anorien and Ithilien, not Belfalas.
However, it is said that Castamir was an unpopular king and that his support dwindled, but at the same time Castamir wanted to remove the capital into Pelargir, and his sons defended Pelargir for a year and later fled to Umbar, so I assume Pelargir and Umbar continued to support Castamir. So it is reasonable to suggest that it were "people of the coasts" (and princes of Belfalas among them), who stopped to support Castamir during his reign. Probably the prince of Belfalas was very unhappy that Ornendil was killed - it is one thing to rebel against the king and completely another to execute a person of royal bloodline. Maybe Castamir was defeated at the Crossings of Erui because the knights of Belfalas didn't help him (or even switched sides). This may also explain why the House of Belfalas remained in power after Eldacar regained his throne.
You probably meant to say Calenardhon instead of Cardolan?
@@muenchhausenmusic Yeah, you are right, it is a mistake, I'll correct it. Thank you!
Do the descendants of the Elven handmaiden [Mifrelas?] and The Numenorian [Imrazor?] get the mortal/immortal choice of the half-elven like Elrond and his kin?
From what I've read, that choice was only given to the descendants of Elrond.
It is said that after the choice was given to Elrond and Elros, any other offspring with any mortal blood (Elrond is not counted, as he is considered n Eldar, so his children get the choice) were counted as mortals. So, no choice.
I only know them from the rts game and Gondor super unit from that game.
This is a question I've had for a while. Does the apparent marriage between Imrazor and Mithrellas essentially contradict the common fan refrain that "there were only three marriages between elves and men"? Is the latter claim based off a misinterpretation of something Tolkien wrote, or is this an example of one of the contradictions that occasionally crop up in the Legendarium?
I've always interpreted that the three unions were exceptional as in all 3 cases, both the spouses chose to share the same fate (they were given the choice). (Tuor became elf and Luthien and Arwen became mortal)
Finrod doesn't say the Union is forbidden, he just says it's unwise (mostly referencing the differing fate)
I guess some elf and man were wed through the ages (maybe even Avari and easterlings)
Maybe whoever said that in world did not know about this. Also, it may be that this union was not official, or maybe not even consensual, as indicated by the elf fleeing into the night at the first opportunity.
@@AntoninHamstra She doesn't flee into the night at the first opportunity, though, she does it after bearing two children. Furthermore, if it was non-consensual, that doesn't real fit with the general depiction of the House of Dol Amroth as being stand up guys.
So does Tolkien have canon for whether an elf like mithiriel can ever go to valinor and stay immortal or did having human children lead her to become mortal?
Idril, the Elf who gave birth to Eärendil, went to Valinor so I think Mithrellas would have gone to Valinor as well.
@@istari0 Did Idril also leave without raising Earendil (i forget she was on the run, right?). So is this a theme where elf mothers need to leave middle earth without raising their children?
Then arwen gave up immortality simply because she married someone too late in the third age when no more ships could take her to valinor? And whatever happened to Luthien did she die as well?
@@eumaies Eärendil was still a child when Tuor and Idril went to Valinor. But it was the Valar who forbade them returning to Middle-Earth so I don't think it was intentional.
Arwen gave up her immortality because all the children of Elrond were given the choice to at some point decide to be Elven and live as an Elf or decide to be mortal and live as a Man, which is what she decided when she agreed to marry Aragorn. I supposed she could have chosen to remain an Elf and stay in Middle-Earth but then she, just like any other Elf that never left for Valinor would fade over time.
When Lúthien was offered the possibility of her and Beren being sent back to Middle-Earth, it was to live and die as mortal Men, which is the choice she made. So, she eventually died and her spirit passed beyond the Circles of the World.
Elves' and men's fate were strictly fixed and only a handful were given the choice by the Valar by the permission of the Eru (ultimately it's Eru that changes their fate, Valar are just messengers here)
So every elf is Imortal and every man mortal, except those few...
I heard that due to Arda marred the lifespans of the Dúnedain decreased but did the lifespans of the Princes of Belfalas decrease during the second age, due to Arda marred?
The original Númenoreans were given expanded life spans (thrice that of normal men) by Eönwë when they settled Númenor and the line of Elros was given even longer life. It wasn't due to Arda marred although I would think that played a role in those extended life spans shrinking as the Númenor became more corrupted over the millenia.
@@istari0 Well I understand that the only landmasses that were not affected by Arda marred were Númenor (because it was raised after Morgoth's fall) and Valinor. The shortening of the Númenorean lifespans was because of the increasing blasphemy and hatred of the Númenoreans for the Valar, as they desired immortality more and more. It is also the reason why the Faithful retained their longer lifespans for longer. Elendil and Ar-Pharazôn were of similar age, Elendil being born in 3119 and Ar-Pharazôn being born in 3118, but while'st Ar-Pharazôn felt his life coming to an end at around 190, which led to him building the great armament (as Sauron said that he could grab immortality by attacking Valinor), Elendil lived for another 121 years and still being fit enough to lead his armies. The house of Belfalas while'st not falling to the shadow, they still lived in Middle-Earth for more than a thousand years, so they should have encountered a shortening of their lifespans similar to the decline of the rest of the Dúnedain in the third age.
I get why they were left out of the movie, but I wish they hadn’t been. I have the concept art book and the knights look so cool. Plus the prince is one of my favorite characters
So Mithrellas would actually mean that Tolkien has FOUR Elven - Human Marriages
....not just 3.
I always thought the 3 marriages were between the Edain and High Elves/the Noldor, and that the marriage of Mithrellas was between an Edain and a Sindar Elf. I can’t remember what gave me that impression, maybe someone can help me out if I’m correct
@TimC1517 Beren and Lúthien
Tuor and Idril (Itaril)
Aragorn and Arwen
There were three marriages between the Edain and the Eldar. Considering that Numenoreans definitely were Edain, that means Mithrellas probably was (considered?) Avari.
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ In PoME Tolkien refers to her as a "Silvan" elf, and in a few different places that's defined as of Nandorin descent. Which would put them in the broader Eldar category. I'm not saying that's definitive at all: this is all from works published after JRRT's death, and I haven't dug into it to any great depth. But I'm inclined to think the choice of the Half-Elven was not an eternal grant, and only applied to the children of unions in existence before it was issued, and also the descendants of those who had chosen the Firstborn, apparently up until the end of the Third Age. This wouldn't apply to the children of Mithrellas and their descendants, by virtue of that union happening later on, regardless of her status as Eldar or not. That's my divine legalese headcanon for now, at least!
@@tiltskillet7085 Yeah, I also think that Mithrellas was Silvan/Nandorin, but the line between Silvan Elves and Avari is not very clear, since there was some mixture between the Western Avari (from the tribe called Penni) and the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien. Maybe Mithrellas was (partly?) of Avari descend and thus was not considered among Eldar.
And yeah, I completely agree that the choice of the Half-Elven was was granted specifically to Earendil, Elving. Elros, Elrond and Elrond's children. It seems that in other cases (such as the case of Mithrellas) the children of elves and men were automatically considered mortal humans, not immortal elves.
Galador was born in 2004 so he is 20 years old?
So by the tradition of the Dúnedain, he is now an adult!
Adrahil not AYdrahil
Dol Amroth is easily the most interesting and enigmatic corners of the realms of the Edain. As the Tolkien estate allows more and more mucking about within the world, Dol Amroth deserves to be explored further.
Many a DaC faction was forced here
I blame Galu and EmperorOfHell.
It should not be independent
crazy
It isn't?
@@alfieingrouille1528 it's a DaC reference.😅
@@cynfaelalek-walker7003 Game balance is an awful thing
Rather, it should be part of the family tree since Denethor married Finduilas.