The blue wizards and the Eastern parts of ME are some of the most interesting parts of Tolkein's work IMO. I've kind of become obsessed with Middle Eastern/ Asian wizards venturing into unexplored deserts and jungles with mysterious people. Add in some speculation like the existence of one of the escaped balrogs, the other dwarven clans or dark elves in those areas and you've got an awesome fanfiction that conceptually beats Rings of Power in almost every aspect.
There's more too. We know that halflings come from the east. Thus, it's possible that some still remain there in the third age. Various Numenor settlements might exist there as well, especially along the coasts. I'm almost certain that at least two of the Ring Wraiths are from these settlements. There's an entire branch of elves that exist there, elves that never went to Aman. I'd also argue that there's probably some geographical features there that might be the remains of the lamps and Ultmno. In my personal headcannon, I really like the idea that somewhere east of the Iron hills a deep northern bay partially ringed with forested mountains. This is the third-age remains of Ultmno. There's also mountain ranges, the sea of Helcar, the original lands of men and elves, and maybe a great waste land as Bilbo hinted at in the Hobbit. Some of this stuff may have changed by the TA, but there should be something there, regardless. You could also very easily expand upon Tolkien's writings using local fokelore. We know that Tolkien's world is a written as a mythos or pre-history Earth that eventually morphs into our real history. Thus, you could take something like the Japanese shape-shifting Kitsune and easily adapt it into Tolkien's legendarium as an Ainur. There are long periods of the second and third ages where Sauron is active but not in the west. What was he doing? I think he was busy in the east and south. Our view of Middle Earth is very limited by the scope offered in the Red Book. The north-west was probably only a small part of a greater Middle Earth, one where only maybe a handful of characters that we meet have a greater understanding of (Sauman, Gandalf, Aragon, Galadriel, Denathor, Faramir, Smeagol).
Fanfiction is all we'd ever get, because the Tolkien family is certainly not going to add any more to the Middle Earth lore. Given what Amazon just did with "Rings of Power," my trust in anybody to do a good fanfiction of this subject matter is pretty much at an all-time low. I wouldn't even trust myself to do it, honestly.
I have actually enjoyed reading fanfiction about the eastern parts of Middle-earth, especially the stuff done through MERP. Some of it is really good, some of it is really bad, but it's interesting nonetheless.
8:26 is one of my favorite pictures of the blue wizards. It would make sense though. 1. At the war of the last alliance there could have been more people to fight with Sauron but was hindered because the blue wizards. 2. Alatar and Pallando could be their Maiar names and Morinehtar and Romestamo was their given names (like Olorin as Gandalf, mithrandir, etc.)
I’ve always been captivated by the Blue Wizards and the East in general. In my personal head canon I chose to merge the different versions of the Blue Wizards. I chose to believe that they ventured into the East and South eventually forming armies and kingdoms to fight Sauron, however they grew too prideful to simply let that power go. It’s possible they fought till the end of the Third Age against Sauron, but perhaps not entirely for the good of the world. This way the lines of their failure match with those of their success.
I think if Sauron had killed the Blue Wizards, he would have either rubbed it in the nose of Saruman through the Palantir or the Mouth of Sauron would have mocked the company at the Gate with the information. Similarly, Saruman's speech to Gandalf and company at Orthanc would have mentioned it if Saruman had betrayed the Blue Wizards while he was in the East. All in-universe of course, since Professor Tolkein didn't seem to worry much about the Blue Wizards when working on the LOTR.
Tolkien Untangled brought up the possibility with Radagast that perhaps he was not refused the chance to go back to Valinor, but that as he was sent by Yavana and had a natural proclivity toward flora and fauna, perhaps his duty was to look after the natural parts of middle earth, and that his duty did not end with Sauron's fall. It may be similar to the Blue Wizards. If it is as Tolkien said initially, that they served a missionary purpose, then that likely entailed turning men away from Melkor worship as propagated by Sauron. I imagine that task would likely have taken many years after the dark lord himself had fallen, as those who'd profited on the religion and societies Sauron nurtured would likely not have been apt to change just because the he wasn't the god he claimed to be, and many would have heartily clung to it and continued the types of traditions taken up during the dark era for centuries, if not millennia after. The blue wizards may have had a role in the east long after the "official" record ends, possibly into the era where myth would have blended into history, or simply departed for the west in their own way long after the Noldor where there to write of it.
@@DarthGandalfYT And followed through on his "Trees can't grow under the starlight!" plans to make The Silmarillion more based on science. Thank god he never got to do that.
Yes. As for me, given that Tolkien was in the trenches in World War 1, I am just thankful he got to live at all. British casualties were brutal and most of Tolkien's friends were killed in the war. We easily could have never had any of this.
Maybe the reason there was diversion between tribes of Easterlings and Haradrim was because some worshipped Sauron and some worshipped the Blue Wizards. Maybe the reason the reason they managed to survive was the Blue Wizards enchanted their weapons to be greater than weapons of who served Sauron on condition they never attack the Western lands. Whilst this might sound silly remember the Barrow daggers that were made with magic spells that allowed them to hurt wraiths. Maybe there were some who worshipped Sauron and some worshipped a Blue Wizard in Rhun and some who worshipped Sauron in the South and some who worshipped a Blue Wizard in Harad. This would make sense as Sauron's slaves were brought from tribute lands and not all of these could have come from Gondor and Dale. Some must have been people who opposed Sauron in the East and South. Maybe the reason they did not return to Valinor was like Radagast they came to love Middle-Earth more and following the fall of Sauron they helped bring peace to Rhun and Harad, as Elessar and Eomer can't have managed to bring peace to all the Easterlings and Haradrim with so few solders. Maybe they united their followers and with aid from Gondor, Rohan and Dale they were able to unite the people of Rhun and Harad and bring peace to Middle-Earth and then enjoy the peace they had worked so hard for for 4500 years!
Great video about one of my favorite Middle-earth mysteries. In my headcanon, both of Tolkien's ideas were correct - one of the Blue Wizards remained true to his mission and stirred up resistance in the east, while the other one fell and became the founder of a secretive cult that lasted well into the Fourth Age. (Also, poor Radagast - Tolkien seems to have turned against the Brown Wizard; he doesn't even get a seat on the boats back to Valinor!)
I really wish that Tolkien could have lived longer, or someone of his writing caliber and who is intimately familiar with his lore could set a story in the east or south of Middle Earth during the second or third age. If I was in charge of the Tolkien estate, I would hire someone to write that. There's great characters and stories out there, I'm sure of it.
@@drago939393 Sure, it might never be to everyone's liking. Yet I think it's possible to pull it off in a way that could be satisfying. You'd need a legendary writer cut from a similar background, but there are also plenty of Tolkien aficionados out there that could assist in ensuring that anything written remains consistent with the lore and languages. Even that role-playing stuff from the 90's did a fairly good job of building out the edges of Tolkien's world. You could hire a team to create something like that, then allow a great writer to set a story within it. Plus, setting it in new lands allows for a bit more creative flexibility. Even within the lore, this makes sense. It would not be written by the authors of the Red Book. Sadly, I doubt we'll get that sort of care given to Tolkien's works for a few decades. It's clear that Tolkien's surviving estate doesn't care for Tolkien's works the way his son did. It probably won't be until the copyright expires before such a project is possible.
@@joshthomas-moore2656 That's my point. We do know what happened to it; it was ruined in the earlier war. If there was anything in there of value, Sauron had plenty of time to loot the place before the Blue Wizards arrived in the 2nd Age.
Another great video, thanks. I always wondered whether return to the West was an option available to the other Istari, should they have sought it. I guess that Radagast had gone so completely native that he would never have left ME although I like to imagine Gandalf about to board the White Ship saying to Cirdan “5 more minutes, just give him 5 more minutes”.
Fantastic video and informative, even after watching what seems like a million other takes from a million other Tolkien youtubers. That Nature of Middle-Earth bit was particularly interesting. In my head cannon I think both Blue Wizards were able to cause Sauron lots of trouble by coordinating a bunch of little rebellions of native men, some remnants of faithful Numenoreans, a chunk of the Dwarves and a few dwindling but old and powerful Avari. Still, as Nietzsche made cliche when you gaze too long into the abyss it also gazes into you and the Blue Wizards didn’t have quite the luxury of being able to hold firm to their morals like Gandalf did. Perhaps they had to tacitly encourage or at least overlook worship of false gods, at bare minimum they would not have been able to rely on memory of the Valar as Gandalf could in more enlightened lands. So in the end they do indeed cause Sauron great trouble but lose track of their reasons for resisting in the first place and perhaps, with time, even forget their original callings altogether.
@@DarthGandalfYT Or if they started with the right reasons but ended up becoming somewhat … proto-Saurons in their own right, even with good intentions at first because that's what those men were conditioned to respect. Could be an interesting shade of grey. Like maybe they end up not entirely evil, not entirely good in the end like they still have pure or somewhat pure intentions by the end of the third age but you've been worshipped as gods in their own right for too long. Maybe at first they just saw it as a necessary evil because that's what the Morgoth-worshipping men had been trained to respect so at first they just endured the worship as like an unpleasant job duty but then it gets to their heads. Sorry a little tipsy.
Would still like to see you cover the Druedain. The only person I know who has a cooler name than Darkness Slayer is Dr. Loki Skylizard. Yes, that is his real name. Look him up.
Another great and informative video on one of the most mysterious and compelling mysteries of middle earth; whom were the blue wizards and role in the events of the f the third age.
No, no, no you're all getting it wrong: clearly one of them arrived in Middle-Earth with a meteor at the begginning of the Second Age (source: Amazon said so)
I personally favor the idea that the Blue Wizards did arrive in the 2nd Age and did have a fair amount of success in opposing Sauron's plans in the East and the South but eventually fell to him sometime in the latter part of the 3rd Age. This freed up Sauron to focus entirely on NW Middle-Earth but greatly reduced the forces he could bring to bear by the time of the War of the Ring.
To me it's interesting how the blue wizards. Outlasted both Morgoth and Sauron. In magical cults or cults even tho the dark lords had way more influence over those people. Guess a contradictory quote or he changed his mind.
East is probably the most interesting part of the legendarium. Blue wizards, Avari, 4 Clans of the dwarves, Easterlings, Khand, Rhun, Saurons forces, possibly dragons and many other unmentioned wonders but sadly East is also the part of the legendarium we got least amount of information about…
Another great video! I have another unrelated question that for me remains a mystery. Here it is: the Dunedains are supposed to be watching over the Shire, but where were they during the events leading up to the scouring of the shire? They seemed to have abandoned it completely, in a very short period of time.
I'll try my best to answer that one: Basically, there were only few Dunedain left and they lived scattered all across Eriador. I assume that the amount of Dunedain guarding the Shire was very low (after all it was in a geographically safe location). When the 31 men of the Grey Company met with Aragorn, Halbarad told him that these 31 men where all the Dunedain could muster and afford to send away on the spot. This shows that there were only few Dunedain remaining and that the Dunedain were very occupied with their tasks. My theory is that there simply were only very few Dunedain guarding the Shire, and the Dunedain had even more work today after the departure of the Grey Company. They were enough to keep the occasional intruders out, but couldn't stand up against hundreds of Ruffians. Since the Dunedain also couldn't really afford reinforcing the Shire by pulling men away from other locations, they kinda had to give up on the Shire (although it could be argued that especially after the defeat of Sauron the Dunedain could have at least attempted some actions against the Ruffians, yet we are never told of it).
@@herbertmaggi6917 When the Nazgûl found out where the Shire was and headed for it, they did encounter a group of Dúnedain Rangers guarding the road that at one time had connected Gondor and Arnor. The Rangers were defeated and that would have also contributed to their inability to continue protecting the Shire.
I think the Blue Wizards actions were meant to unfold way later at the last struggle. It's almost a given. Ungoliant and a reborn Morgoth has got to be what is meant. Tolkien loved our ancient mythology. The Last Struggle is that ultimate tale. I'm completely convinced of this. It brings a complete cycle to his tale.
One thing I don't understand is why were they both blue. The other three wizards were color coded and also referred to by their colors. So what's the point of having two blue wizards, especially when you send them both to the East and South instead of having like one blue wizard in the West and one on the other side of Mordor. Were they perhaps different shades of blue? Were they even both blue? What if one was more like greenish blue and was supposed to be a Green Wizard, but there was some kind of a mix-up at some point?
We know of some lands to the east. 1st, the remaining peoples of Rhovanion dwell south of Esgaroth, in the bite of Mirkwood. East of them seems to be the lovation of Dorwinion where Thranduil buys his wine. He would obviously not trade with the dark lord. North of Dorwinion lies the iron hills. During the war of Dwarf and Orcs, even more dwarfs, from east of there, join up. While some writing suggests dwarfs may have served Sauron, Gloin, or was it Gimli(?), seem certain they have not. As there are 7 houses of the dwarf, and only 3 exists in the west, as much as 4 dwarf realms might prosper elsewhere, or at least one if they united as the 3 in the west did. We also know elves not fallen to the dark yet not inclined to wander west dwell to the east. Saruman also speaks of the five as existing, as if Gandalf can actually subvert their powers, suggesting he is in contact with them or is spying on them somehow. The idea that Sauron taking his time reemerging being because he was preoccupied fits well here. I like to think the blues didn't necessarily met the same fate as eachother and in fact I think by TA they are alive. Much like Sauron, they're probably not bending their knees to Sauron either but rather put up their own power bases, balancing between Sauron, other of Morgoths lieutenants not fond of Sauron, and the various good or "neutral" societies the east may offer. I do not believe they did much south as Harad seem much more a solid monolit under Mordor and black numenorean influence.
I know there is no Black Wizard but there was a set of small metal figures of the Lord of the rings and in one picture in the box there was a picture of a wizard in black, if I still had it I would post it somewhere online.
It always seemed to me that these two backstories for the Blue Wizards were not necessarily all that contradictory, other than in dates and names. Taking the later version, we are told that the Blue Wizards arriving in the Second Age, helping many peoples in the South and East to rise up against Sauron, greatly reducing the forces available to him in both the Second and Third Ages. They later hunt Sauron after his downfall sometime into the Third Age, a task at which they eventually fail. Taking the earlier version of events, suppose that in the Third Age, they began to stray from their appointed task, eventually forming their own magical cults and traditions. Does this conflict with the former? Not really. In fact, it helps explain why the Blue Wizards did not find Sauron despite an impressive head start on the other Istari. Even if they started to set themselves up as wizard-kings rather than merely helpers, they could still have acted as significant obstacles for Sauron. Rather than falling completely into evil as Saruman did, the Blue Wizards might have ended up falling somewhere in between him and Radagast. If one looked at figures like for example the Three Sages and Five Emperors from the mythical period of Chinese prehistory, credited with inventing things like silk, writing, and traditional medicine, and passing them on to later generations, that might be the sort of figures that the Blue Wizards became in memory. Half-mythical progenitors of occult traditions and civilisations, credited with great magical secrets and learning which they passed on. This would fit with the idea both of creating power blocs in opposition to Sauron, and also mystical traditions. One reason I find the ideal of an eventual fall plausible is because Tolkien repeatedly emphasised the challenges the Istari faced in staying true to their mission. They were only able to retain a few faint memories of Valinor so long as they remained true, and their long wanderings were exhausting to both their bodies and souls. (And though immortal, their bodies did age, just very slowly.) If this was so challenging that out of Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast, only Gandalf managed to stay true to the path after two thousand years. So how much more challenging must it have been for the Blue Wizards, who would have had to endure nearly five thousand years in the bodies of men, constantly wandering? It's also just neat to imagine these magical traditions and cults persisting into the Fourth Age as Tolkien suggests in his letter. Perhaps even the Blue Wizards themselves, now impossibly wizened sorcerer-kings, who would eventually be slain by misfortune or some wandering hero; one of the last frayed links to a vanished world.
“Return to valinor”….does that mean literally, as Gandalf does, or does that include dying? Cause it sounds like the fate of the other 4(besides Gandalf)r sort of grouped together, but that can mean a LOT, since saurumons fate of being DENIED return to the west is pretty severe, and I would truly hope just trying and helping, but just not being completely successful in their task, wouldn’t result in them being punished horrifically as saurumon was!!!!
I think the revisions to the Blue Wizards as originally conceived in 1954 reflect Tolkien's evolving concept of race. He was probably uncomfortable with his earlier depiction of the East and South as monolithic evil peoples, which reflected his Edwardian upringing, where the enemies of Christian Europe had been for centuries the Ottoman Empire and the Moroccan sultanates and Barbary pirates. But in the late 1960s, as his own racial views had changed along with those of many people of his generation, Tolkien may have decided that was too simplistic and altered the story of the Blue Wizards to have them succeed in their missions, showing diversity and an ability to change among the peoples who had been long under the Shadow.
This is something I’ve long though to, and it lines up with some of the other changes Tolkien was considering in the latter part of his life, but never got quite around to publishing- another example being his idea to show orcs who had defected from Sauron.
@@JurzGarz I was wondering how people would take this comment! Some people in Tolkien comment sections can be really weird about this stuff. Some people get mad if you say that Tolkien was racially insensitive. They are either in denial, or don't understand the difference between racially insensitive and racist. We definitely know that Tolkien was not a racist. The reason for Tolkien's lack of ethnic diversity in the 'good' characters in LOTR is very simple - it just didn't occur to him. The Appendices were the last things written for LOTR, after he finished the actual story in 1949, and here you see one interesting choice that I am very sure reflects Tolkien's discomfort with his own depictions of pure blood after the Nazis' obsession with it in WW2. He hated the Nazis' racial policies, but didn't know just how purely evil they were, like almost everyone outside of continental Europe, until 1945. He includes the Gondorian Kinstrife where the half-blood Eldacar is the hero and wins the war against the racist supporters of the pure-blood Castamir, whom Eldacar kills in battle. All the future Gondorian kings are descended from him. It's the same reason why Tolkien has a notorious lack of female characters - he just didn't think it was a big deal when he wrote LOTR and most of the narratives in The Silmarillion. There's a lot to be said on that topic as well, and I think Tolkien's realization of this problem is reflected the most in his constant revisions of Galadriel, the one female character whom he really _could_ change, but that's a whole other comment. The people who take objection to this stuff should consider that only a bad author doesn't adapt to the evolving values of their times.
@@squamish4244 I agree on most of what you said. People who act like Tolkien was a racist are very annoying to me, both extreme left types trying to "cancel" him and extreme right types trying to claim him as one of their own. Unfortunately, I think some people are very overly sensitive about something they love being criticized and are afraid to recognize that some aspects of Tolkien's work might be seen as prejudiced, even though, as you said, that's something Tolkien himself came to realize.
I have a major complaint about your videos that I can't seem to ignore. And I hope you don't think I'm rude when voicing this criticism, but it must be said, and that is your videos are, in fact, too short. I want more content. I am simply not satisfied with a mere 7/8 min. MORE.
One of the five Blue Wizards' story is found in the Chinese Creation Epic "The Legend of Zu Mountain" - Fairies and Maias included there. The movie version is fairly historically accurate.
@@istari0 Try to find the Movie version, Zu Warriors (The Legend of Zu) 2001, if you can. The Crescent Moon Fairy Mother in the movie is one of the Maias.
@@Mikhael1313 Which Maia was she? How did the makers of this movie get the rights to use something from Tolkien's writings? Or are you saying you think this character from the movie resembles a Maia from Tolkien?
@@istari0 For your information, Tolkien's writings are full of deliberate omissions and he nor anyone else has any rights to the creation story. There are hundreds and thousands of Maias that are not mentioned in the Tolkein's version, but many Chinese legend stories did. For example, many of the known animals were created by the Nature spirit Maias and they are expressions of their incarnation and creation, and all living planets belong to the Gaia classification.
@@Mikhael1313 I don't know what you are really driving at here but we are talking about Tolkien's Legendarium and the creation myth he wrote as part of that is absolutely his. Yes, there are many other creation myths and similar stories from other authors and cultures but they don't make Tolkien's stories any less his own. The words "Maia" and Maiar" are part of the Quenya language, one that Tolkien created even before he started creating the world in which his created languages would be used. There may very well be beings from Chinese myths and legends that are similar to Tolkien's Maiar but they are not the same.
The blue wizards and the Eastern parts of ME are some of the most interesting parts of Tolkein's work IMO. I've kind of become obsessed with Middle Eastern/ Asian wizards venturing into unexplored deserts and jungles with mysterious people. Add in some speculation like the existence of one of the escaped balrogs, the other dwarven clans or dark elves in those areas and you've got an awesome fanfiction that conceptually beats Rings of Power in almost every aspect.
A good area for a novel or a TV series.
There's more too. We know that halflings come from the east. Thus, it's possible that some still remain there in the third age. Various Numenor settlements might exist there as well, especially along the coasts. I'm almost certain that at least two of the Ring Wraiths are from these settlements. There's an entire branch of elves that exist there, elves that never went to Aman. I'd also argue that there's probably some geographical features there that might be the remains of the lamps and Ultmno. In my personal headcannon, I really like the idea that somewhere east of the Iron hills a deep northern bay partially ringed with forested mountains. This is the third-age remains of Ultmno.
There's also mountain ranges, the sea of Helcar, the original lands of men and elves, and maybe a great waste land as Bilbo hinted at in the Hobbit. Some of this stuff may have changed by the TA, but there should be something there, regardless.
You could also very easily expand upon Tolkien's writings using local fokelore. We know that Tolkien's world is a written as a mythos or pre-history Earth that eventually morphs into our real history. Thus, you could take something like the Japanese shape-shifting Kitsune and easily adapt it into Tolkien's legendarium as an Ainur.
There are long periods of the second and third ages where Sauron is active but not in the west. What was he doing? I think he was busy in the east and south. Our view of Middle Earth is very limited by the scope offered in the Red Book. The north-west was probably only a small part of a greater Middle Earth, one where only maybe a handful of characters that we meet have a greater understanding of (Sauman, Gandalf, Aragon, Galadriel, Denathor, Faramir, Smeagol).
Fanfiction is all we'd ever get, because the Tolkien family is certainly not going to add any more to the Middle Earth lore. Given what Amazon just did with "Rings of Power," my trust in anybody to do a good fanfiction of this subject matter is pretty much at an all-time low. I wouldn't even trust myself to do it, honestly.
Yep!
I have actually enjoyed reading fanfiction about the eastern parts of Middle-earth, especially the stuff done through MERP. Some of it is really good, some of it is really bad, but it's interesting nonetheless.
8:26 is one of my favorite pictures of the blue wizards.
It would make sense though.
1. At the war of the last alliance there could have been more people to fight with Sauron but was hindered because the blue wizards.
2. Alatar and Pallando could be their Maiar names and Morinehtar and Romestamo was their given names (like Olorin as Gandalf, mithrandir, etc.)
If a series about the Eastern lands is ever made, the travels and long successes of the Blue Wizards is such a wonderfully rich tale that can be told.
I’ve always been captivated by the Blue Wizards and the East in general. In my personal head canon I chose to merge the different versions of the Blue Wizards. I chose to believe that they ventured into the East and South eventually forming armies and kingdoms to fight Sauron, however they grew too prideful to simply let that power go. It’s possible they fought till the end of the Third Age against Sauron, but perhaps not entirely for the good of the world. This way the lines of their failure match with those of their success.
I think if Sauron had killed the Blue Wizards, he would have either rubbed it in the nose of Saruman through the Palantir or the Mouth of Sauron would have mocked the company at the Gate with the information. Similarly, Saruman's speech to Gandalf and company at Orthanc would have mentioned it if Saruman had betrayed the Blue Wizards while he was in the East. All in-universe of course, since Professor Tolkein didn't seem to worry much about the Blue Wizards when working on the LOTR.
Tolkien Untangled brought up the possibility with Radagast that perhaps he was not refused the chance to go back to Valinor, but that as he was sent by Yavana and had a natural proclivity toward flora and fauna, perhaps his duty was to look after the natural parts of middle earth, and that his duty did not end with Sauron's fall.
It may be similar to the Blue Wizards. If it is as Tolkien said initially, that they served a missionary purpose, then that likely entailed turning men away from Melkor worship as propagated by Sauron. I imagine that task would likely have taken many years after the dark lord himself had fallen, as those who'd profited on the religion and societies Sauron nurtured would likely not have been apt to change just because the he wasn't the god he claimed to be, and many would have heartily clung to it and continued the types of traditions taken up during the dark era for centuries, if not millennia after. The blue wizards may have had a role in the east long after the "official" record ends, possibly into the era where myth would have blended into history, or simply departed for the west in their own way long after the Noldor where there to write of it.
*Imagine Tolkien living twice as long and being able to flesh out Rhûn and Harad and further Southeast...*
To be honest, he probably would've just rewritten Galadriel and Celeborn for the 10th time.
@@DarthGandalfYT well writers do love their favorite characters
@@DarthGandalfYTLmao💀💀💀
@@DarthGandalfYT And followed through on his "Trees can't grow under the starlight!" plans to make The Silmarillion more based on science. Thank god he never got to do that.
Yes. As for me, given that Tolkien was in the trenches in World War 1, I am just thankful he got to live at all. British casualties were brutal and most of Tolkien's friends were killed in the war. We easily could have never had any of this.
Maybe the reason there was diversion between tribes of Easterlings and Haradrim was because some worshipped Sauron and some worshipped the Blue Wizards.
Maybe the reason the reason they managed to survive was the Blue Wizards enchanted their weapons to be greater than weapons of who served Sauron on condition they never attack the Western lands.
Whilst this might sound silly remember the Barrow daggers that were made with magic spells that allowed them to hurt wraiths.
Maybe there were some who worshipped Sauron and some worshipped a Blue Wizard in Rhun and some who worshipped Sauron in the South and some who worshipped a Blue Wizard in Harad.
This would make sense as Sauron's slaves were brought from tribute lands and not all of these could have come from Gondor and Dale. Some must have been people who opposed Sauron in the East and South.
Maybe the reason they did not return to Valinor was like Radagast they came to love Middle-Earth more and following the fall of Sauron they helped bring peace to Rhun and Harad, as Elessar and Eomer can't have managed to bring peace to all the Easterlings and Haradrim with so few solders. Maybe they united their followers and with aid from Gondor, Rohan and Dale they were able to unite the people of Rhun and Harad and bring peace to Middle-Earth and then enjoy the peace they had worked so hard for for 4500 years!
Damn was just thinking it's precisely the right time for a Darth Gandalf video to arrive, neither early nor late.
Great video about one of my favorite Middle-earth mysteries. In my headcanon, both of Tolkien's ideas were correct - one of the Blue Wizards remained true to his mission and stirred up resistance in the east, while the other one fell and became the founder of a secretive cult that lasted well into the Fourth Age. (Also, poor Radagast - Tolkien seems to have turned against the Brown Wizard; he doesn't even get a seat on the boats back to Valinor!)
I really wish that Tolkien could have lived longer, or someone of his writing caliber and who is intimately familiar with his lore could set a story in the east or south of Middle Earth during the second or third age. If I was in charge of the Tolkien estate, I would hire someone to write that. There's great characters and stories out there, I'm sure of it.
Even if you hired some of the best writers out there, it would likely still feel "wrong" to have someone else write canon fiction of Middle-Earth.
@@drago939393 Sure, it might never be to everyone's liking. Yet I think it's possible to pull it off in a way that could be satisfying.
You'd need a legendary writer cut from a similar background, but there are also plenty of Tolkien aficionados out there that could assist in ensuring that anything written remains consistent with the lore and languages. Even that role-playing stuff from the 90's did a fairly good job of building out the edges of Tolkien's world. You could hire a team to create something like that, then allow a great writer to set a story within it.
Plus, setting it in new lands allows for a bit more creative flexibility. Even within the lore, this makes sense. It would not be written by the authors of the Red Book.
Sadly, I doubt we'll get that sort of care given to Tolkien's works for a few decades. It's clear that Tolkien's surviving estate doesn't care for Tolkien's works the way his son did.
It probably won't be until the copyright expires before such a project is possible.
Heres a thought maybe part of their mission was to find Utumno and after the Third age they stayed trying to find the place but never did.
Why would they want to find Utumno? It had been a ruin since the War for the Sake of the Elves several thousand years earlier?
@@istari0 Well we don't know what happened to it, its still missing and maybe their mission was to make sure it stayed that way.
@@joshthomas-moore2656 That's my point. We do know what happened to it; it was ruined in the earlier war. If there was anything in there of value, Sauron had plenty of time to loot the place before the Blue Wizards arrived in the 2nd Age.
Another great video, thanks. I always wondered whether return to the West was an option available to the other Istari, should they have sought it. I guess that Radagast had gone so completely native that he would never have left ME although I like to imagine Gandalf about to board the White Ship saying to Cirdan “5 more minutes, just give him 5 more minutes”.
love the content dude.
Fantastic video and informative, even after watching what seems like a million other takes from a million other Tolkien youtubers. That Nature of Middle-Earth bit was particularly interesting. In my head cannon I think both Blue Wizards were able to cause Sauron lots of trouble by coordinating a bunch of little rebellions of native men, some remnants of faithful Numenoreans, a chunk of the Dwarves and a few dwindling but old and powerful Avari. Still, as Nietzsche made cliche when you gaze too long into the abyss it also gazes into you and the Blue Wizards didn’t have quite the luxury of being able to hold firm to their morals like Gandalf did. Perhaps they had to tacitly encourage or at least overlook worship of false gods, at bare minimum they would not have been able to rely on memory of the Valar as Gandalf could in more enlightened lands. So in the end they do indeed cause Sauron great trouble but lose track of their reasons for resisting in the first place and perhaps, with time, even forget their original callings altogether.
Yep. It would be interesting if they went down the path of "doing the right thing but for the wrong reasons" when it came to resisting Sauron.
@@DarthGandalfYT Or if they started with the right reasons but ended up becoming somewhat … proto-Saurons in their own right, even with good intentions at first because that's what those men were conditioned to respect. Could be an interesting shade of grey. Like maybe they end up not entirely evil, not entirely good in the end like they still have pure or somewhat pure intentions by the end of the third age but you've been worshipped as gods in their own right for too long. Maybe at first they just saw it as a necessary evil because that's what the Morgoth-worshipping men had been trained to respect so at first they just endured the worship as like an unpleasant job duty but then it gets to their heads. Sorry a little tipsy.
The Blue Wizards of Middle Earth: Basically an afterthought. Even by Tolkien.
I want to believe they each started a family just like Tom Bombadil and took up the names of ordinary Men.
Would still like to see you cover the Druedain.
The only person I know who has a cooler name than Darkness Slayer is Dr. Loki Skylizard. Yes, that is his real name. Look him up.
Damn I missed the video on the day it came out , better late than never. Thanks for the video on these two
Another great and informative video on one of the most mysterious and compelling mysteries of middle earth; whom were the blue wizards and role in the events of the f the third age.
Well, that's all of the Middle Earth Mysteries watched. I'm hoping that you can dig up some more tantalising tales in future. ❤😊❤
No, no, no you're all getting it wrong: clearly one of them arrived in Middle-Earth with a meteor at the begginning of the Second Age (source: Amazon said so)
Oh dear!
Darkness has been slain and it will be a lot more difficult to get a good night's sleep.
That's why you just live underground.
I personally favor the idea that the Blue Wizards did arrive in the 2nd Age and did have a fair amount of success in opposing Sauron's plans in the East and the South but eventually fell to him sometime in the latter part of the 3rd Age. This freed up Sauron to focus entirely on NW Middle-Earth but greatly reduced the forces he could bring to bear by the time of the War of the Ring.
Yesss finally blue wizards video thanks for the content 🙃
wellwellwellllll, it's time for another one to immerse myself again into the middle earth mysteries....
bkeep going Darth broo,
btw first ;)
6:40 that passage makes the most sense for the RoP having the istari in it i just really hope its one of the blue wizards and not Gandalf lol
What if Saruman revealed the blue wizards to Sauron, being the reason they failed?
To me it's interesting how the blue wizards. Outlasted both Morgoth and Sauron. In magical cults or cults even tho the dark lords had way more influence over those people. Guess a contradictory quote or he changed his mind.
East is probably the most interesting part of the legendarium. Blue wizards, Avari, 4 Clans of the dwarves, Easterlings, Khand, Rhun, Saurons forces, possibly dragons and many other unmentioned wonders but sadly East is also the part of the legendarium we got least amount of information about…
Another great video! I have another unrelated question that for me remains a mystery. Here it is: the Dunedains are supposed to be watching over the Shire, but where were they during the events leading up to the scouring of the shire? They seemed to have abandoned it completely, in a very short period of time.
I'll try my best to answer that one: Basically, there were only few Dunedain left and they lived scattered all across Eriador. I assume that the amount of Dunedain guarding the Shire was very low (after all it was in a geographically safe location). When the 31 men of the Grey Company met with Aragorn, Halbarad told him that these 31 men where all the Dunedain could muster and afford to send away on the spot. This shows that there were only few Dunedain remaining and that the Dunedain were very occupied with their tasks.
My theory is that there simply were only very few Dunedain guarding the Shire, and the Dunedain had even more work today after the departure of the Grey Company. They were enough to keep the occasional intruders out, but couldn't stand up against hundreds of Ruffians. Since the Dunedain also couldn't really afford reinforcing the Shire by pulling men away from other locations, they kinda had to give up on the Shire (although it could be argued that especially after the defeat of Sauron the Dunedain could have at least attempted some actions against the Ruffians, yet we are never told of it).
@@herbertmaggi6917 awesome! Thanks so much for the answer! That clears a lot of things up for me.
@@herbertmaggi6917 When the Nazgûl found out where the Shire was and headed for it, they did encounter a group of Dúnedain Rangers guarding the road that at one time had connected Gondor and Arnor. The Rangers were defeated and that would have also contributed to their inability to continue protecting the Shire.
I think the Blue Wizards actions were meant to unfold way later at the last struggle. It's almost a given. Ungoliant and a reborn Morgoth has got to be what is meant. Tolkien loved our ancient mythology. The Last Struggle is that ultimate tale.
I'm completely convinced of this. It brings a complete cycle to his tale.
This is what the Amazon tv series should have been about the blue wizards raising a resistance in the east and gathering news of Sauron
One thing I don't understand is why were they both blue. The other three wizards were color coded and also referred to by their colors. So what's the point of having two blue wizards, especially when you send them both to the East and South instead of having like one blue wizard in the West and one on the other side of Mordor. Were they perhaps different shades of blue? Were they even both blue? What if one was more like greenish blue and was supposed to be a Green Wizard, but there was some kind of a mix-up at some point?
We know of some lands to the east. 1st, the remaining peoples of Rhovanion dwell south of Esgaroth, in the bite of Mirkwood. East of them seems to be the lovation of Dorwinion where Thranduil buys his wine. He would obviously not trade with the dark lord. North of Dorwinion lies the iron hills. During the war of Dwarf and Orcs, even more dwarfs, from east of there, join up. While some writing suggests dwarfs may have served Sauron, Gloin, or was it Gimli(?), seem certain they have not. As there are 7 houses of the dwarf, and only 3 exists in the west, as much as 4 dwarf realms might prosper elsewhere, or at least one if they united as the 3 in the west did. We also know elves not fallen to the dark yet not inclined to wander west dwell to the east. Saruman also speaks of the five as existing, as if Gandalf can actually subvert their powers, suggesting he is in contact with them or is spying on them somehow. The idea that Sauron taking his time reemerging being because he was preoccupied fits well here. I like to think the blues didn't necessarily met the same fate as eachother and in fact I think by TA they are alive. Much like Sauron, they're probably not bending their knees to Sauron either but rather put up their own power bases, balancing between Sauron, other of Morgoths lieutenants not fond of Sauron, and the various good or "neutral" societies the east may offer. I do not believe they did much south as Harad seem much more a solid monolit under Mordor and black numenorean influence.
I know there is no Black Wizard but there was a set of small metal figures of the Lord of the rings and in one picture in the box there was a picture of a wizard in black, if I still had it I would post it somewhere online.
Theory: The Blue Wizards are the Biblical Magi, finally redeeming themselves by bringing gifts to Eru incarnate.
They were undercover agitators, white-anting Sauron. :-)
It always seemed to me that these two backstories for the Blue Wizards were not necessarily all that contradictory, other than in dates and names. Taking the later version, we are told that the Blue Wizards arriving in the Second Age, helping many peoples in the South and East to rise up against Sauron, greatly reducing the forces available to him in both the Second and Third Ages. They later hunt Sauron after his downfall sometime into the Third Age, a task at which they eventually fail.
Taking the earlier version of events, suppose that in the Third Age, they began to stray from their appointed task, eventually forming their own magical cults and traditions. Does this conflict with the former? Not really. In fact, it helps explain why the Blue Wizards did not find Sauron despite an impressive head start on the other Istari. Even if they started to set themselves up as wizard-kings rather than merely helpers, they could still have acted as significant obstacles for Sauron. Rather than falling completely into evil as Saruman did, the Blue Wizards might have ended up falling somewhere in between him and Radagast.
If one looked at figures like for example the Three Sages and Five Emperors from the mythical period of Chinese prehistory, credited with inventing things like silk, writing, and traditional medicine, and passing them on to later generations, that might be the sort of figures that the Blue Wizards became in memory. Half-mythical progenitors of occult traditions and civilisations, credited with great magical secrets and learning which they passed on. This would fit with the idea both of creating power blocs in opposition to Sauron, and also mystical traditions.
One reason I find the ideal of an eventual fall plausible is because Tolkien repeatedly emphasised the challenges the Istari faced in staying true to their mission. They were only able to retain a few faint memories of Valinor so long as they remained true, and their long wanderings were exhausting to both their bodies and souls. (And though immortal, their bodies did age, just very slowly.) If this was so challenging that out of Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast, only Gandalf managed to stay true to the path after two thousand years. So how much more challenging must it have been for the Blue Wizards, who would have had to endure nearly five thousand years in the bodies of men, constantly wandering?
It's also just neat to imagine these magical traditions and cults persisting into the Fourth Age as Tolkien suggests in his letter. Perhaps even the Blue Wizards themselves, now impossibly wizened sorcerer-kings, who would eventually be slain by misfortune or some wandering hero; one of the last frayed links to a vanished world.
“Return to valinor”….does that mean literally, as Gandalf does, or does that include dying? Cause it sounds like the fate of the other 4(besides Gandalf)r sort of grouped together, but that can mean a LOT, since saurumons fate of being DENIED return to the west is pretty severe, and I would truly hope just trying and helping, but just not being completely successful in their task, wouldn’t result in them being punished horrifically as saurumon was!!!!
I'd like to think one of them was lost in time and became Merlin
First 😤, love your channel keep up the awesome work!!!
i love the blue wizards and the land if the east because i can make my own legendarium😊
I think the revisions to the Blue Wizards as originally conceived in 1954 reflect Tolkien's evolving concept of race. He was probably uncomfortable with his earlier depiction of the East and South as monolithic evil peoples, which reflected his Edwardian upringing, where the enemies of Christian Europe had been for centuries the Ottoman Empire and the Moroccan sultanates and Barbary pirates.
But in the late 1960s, as his own racial views had changed along with those of many people of his generation, Tolkien may have decided that was too simplistic and altered the story of the Blue Wizards to have them succeed in their missions, showing diversity and an ability to change among the peoples who had been long under the Shadow.
This is something I’ve long though to, and it lines up with some of the other changes Tolkien was considering in the latter part of his life, but never got quite around to publishing- another example being his idea to show orcs who had defected from Sauron.
@@JurzGarz I was wondering how people would take this comment! Some people in Tolkien comment sections can be really weird about this stuff.
Some people get mad if you say that Tolkien was racially insensitive. They are either in denial, or don't understand the difference between racially insensitive and racist. We definitely know that Tolkien was not a racist.
The reason for Tolkien's lack of ethnic diversity in the 'good' characters in LOTR is very simple - it just didn't occur to him.
The Appendices were the last things written for LOTR, after he finished the actual story in 1949, and here you see one interesting choice that I am very sure reflects Tolkien's discomfort with his own depictions of pure blood after the Nazis' obsession with it in WW2. He hated the Nazis' racial policies, but didn't know just how purely evil they were, like almost everyone outside of continental Europe, until 1945. He includes the Gondorian Kinstrife where the half-blood Eldacar is the hero and wins the war against the racist supporters of the pure-blood Castamir, whom Eldacar kills in battle. All the future Gondorian kings are descended from him.
It's the same reason why Tolkien has a notorious lack of female characters - he just didn't think it was a big deal when he wrote LOTR and most of the narratives in The Silmarillion.
There's a lot to be said on that topic as well, and I think Tolkien's realization of this problem is reflected the most in his constant revisions of Galadriel, the one female character whom he really _could_ change, but that's a whole other comment.
The people who take objection to this stuff should consider that only a bad author doesn't adapt to the evolving values of their times.
@@squamish4244 I agree on most of what you said. People who act like Tolkien was a racist are very annoying to me, both extreme left types trying to "cancel" him and extreme right types trying to claim him as one of their own. Unfortunately, I think some people are very overly sensitive about something they love being criticized and are afraid to recognize that some aspects of Tolkien's work might be seen as prejudiced, even though, as you said, that's something Tolkien himself came to realize.
Did the inland sea of helcar become the land of Mordor?
Initially it was believed so, but Tolkien's later writings revealed that the Sea of Helcar was further east, and that Mordor existed in the First Age.
On and on about the Blue Wizards. Tolkien wrote next to nothing about them - yet people keep talking about them ad nauseum. 🙄
I have a major complaint about your videos that I can't seem to ignore. And I hope you don't think I'm rude when voicing this criticism, but it must be said, and that is your videos are, in fact, too short. I want more content. I am simply not satisfied with a mere 7/8 min. MORE.
One of the five Blue Wizards' story is found in the Chinese Creation Epic "The Legend of Zu Mountain" - Fairies and Maias included there. The movie version is fairly historically accurate.
So, I looked this show up and found it is based on a novel written by a Chinese author published in 1932. How could Maiar have appeared in this book?
@@istari0 Try to find the Movie version, Zu Warriors (The Legend of Zu) 2001, if you can. The Crescent Moon Fairy Mother in the movie is one of the Maias.
@@Mikhael1313 Which Maia was she? How did the makers of this movie get the rights to use something from Tolkien's writings? Or are you saying you think this character from the movie resembles a Maia from Tolkien?
@@istari0 For your information, Tolkien's writings are full of deliberate omissions and he nor anyone else has any rights to the creation story. There are hundreds and thousands of Maias that are not mentioned in the Tolkein's version, but many Chinese legend stories did. For example, many of the known animals were created by the Nature spirit Maias and they are expressions of their incarnation and creation, and all living planets belong to the Gaia classification.
@@Mikhael1313 I don't know what you are really driving at here but we are talking about Tolkien's Legendarium and the creation myth he wrote as part of that is absolutely his. Yes, there are many other creation myths and similar stories from other authors and cultures but they don't make Tolkien's stories any less his own.
The words "Maia" and Maiar" are part of the Quenya language, one that Tolkien created even before he started creating the world in which his created languages would be used. There may very well be beings from Chinese myths and legends that are similar to Tolkien's Maiar but they are not the same.
I always like to think they eventually failed and were meant to be the villains of the abandoned sequel