On a separate note, all this confirms what I thought while watching Ahsoka during the flashback in the World Between Worlds - "Darth Vader was born on the battlefields of the Clone Wars."
if i remember correctly when it comes to ability in the force Obiwan is actually one of the weaker Jedi. his skill with the blade is what carried him through every conflict but he had faith in the force. so the fact that a Obiwan was able to keep pace with the chosen one i think highlights how great of a swordsman he became. I think Obwan is the best personification of. "it does not matter how much power you have, its how you make use of what you got"
George Lucas: Let me show you Anakin and Obi-Wan are evenly matched with the dramatic Force push stalemate. Additionally, Obi-Wan Form 3 Soresu doesn’t even work properly unless you are very good with the Force.
@@heatherleisureWell it's a fact he's got 1 the lowest midichlorens count,and in the lore he's defo considered 1 of the weakest.But he eventually achieved a better balance in the force than most jedi's.ment to be how he beat Anackin.Least that's what palpatine thought...its says it in 1 of his books,Apparently
@@bobsyme3118 what you said about midichlorians is simply is not true. There is a reason Yoda is confident that Obi-Wan can solo Vader. And he would never send Obi-Wan on a pointless suicide mission with the Jedi so near extinction. That’s why he said Obi-Wan can’t fight Sidious (but he can fight Vader)
@@heatherleisurewrong, Yoda was confident in obi wans ability to defeat dark anakin for three reasons.1: he knew anakin his whole life, he trained him, he was familiar with his style and helped him hone it. 2: even if there was a slight chance of turning Vader back to the light, obi wan had the best chance to do it (besides padme but Yoda didn't know that). 3: there was literally no one else to deal with Vader, the only two masters who survived was obi wan and Yoda, that's it. Obi wan was in fact one of the Jedi with lesser potential compared to others, but he was by far one of the most powerful. He embodied what it meant to be a jedi, if u look at the novels, there are parts that describe how powerful obi wan was, how he let the force flow through him as if he wasn't even there. Do note that the reason for this low potential was intentional as Lucas probably wanted ppl out there to realize that hard work does play a role in star wars, and obi wan represented that.
“Jedi appear to grow more powerful in times of war”. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that anyone who trains for combat as a profession and survives war, comes out “more powerful” or a better fighter.
@@thinkintelligently5925 It’s an obvious point, so why not just come out and say it without making it sound like it’s something “special” for only Jedi.
@@chrisburton3571 because while it’s true for everyone there’s an exceptional improvement for force users. Lets say everyone increases their “power” by 50% in war time, force users such as Jedi or sith get more like 80% increase because of their sensitivity to the force improving and being honed
The Council underestimated the Kenobi/Skywalker team and did not understand that they were each 1/2 of a unit. By the end of the clone wars, I believe that Kenobi and Skywalker combined could have defeated the Emperor. I also never understood why Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Anakin instead of help him with Sidious. With a good plan Kenobi and Yoda would have defeated the Dark Lord and the. Perhaps with Padme’s help turn Anakin back to the light. But I know why George wrote it that way.
One has to remember that at this point in time the Jedi have not faced an actual Sith threat in hundreds of years. It was a shock to everyone when Darth Maul came out of seemingly nowhere to kill Qui Gonn Jinn during the battle of Naboo, and when Yoda's former apprentice Dooku was outed as one. Yoda directly confronted Dooku a handful of times during the Clone Wars and each time he had complete and total control over the situation in spite of Dooku's best efforts. You could argue that Yoda's decision to send Obi-Wan to deal with Anakin was influenced by pressures caused by Order 66, but I personally think it was the final act of fatal complacency that had already doomed the Jedi order.
@@aenguswright7336 Yoda had convinced himself that he could handle it himself...which is ironically the same arrogance that felled Dooku! Luke Skywalker would go on to repeat the same mistake with Ben Solo as well.
“I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style. But who is greater? The creator of the killing form or the master of the classic form?”
The one that Mastered both themselves an then the Form in question. To the point even the most harmless move can be made deadly or lethal an same for the most lethal of techniques to merely detour or stun..
It's interesting how the rule of 2 can have a light side version, instead of murdering the teacher it's simply about surpassing them, ironically competition seems to be a good motivator for even the jedi
Yet another recurring theme from the Lucas Film Canon: Balance between Light and Dark, even if you lean more one way than the other. It’s cool to keep finding new ways in which both sides of the Force compliment each other rather than oppose (within reason, of course)
Definitely correct because even in sports when I was young training in ice hockey I would always train with the best people I could train against and quickly rise to their skill level if they where more advanced to begin with or help them increase their skills to give me a challenge to cause myself to become better at the same time. I always enjoyed having the difficult challenges of opposition who is as good or better than myself. With all of the close knit competition of us teammates we quickly learned what each other would do when in certain situations and always would be moving to either back up the other persons position because we knew what they was doing or we would go to a spot for a no look pass that would open up the ice for us to get a ton of scoring chances. This type of training goes well in virtually everything from sports, fighting sports, and anything that takes skill/physical prowess. When I moved to Alaska at the of 11 I hadn’t ever ice skated or played ice hockey (would enjoy field hockey in elementary school the couple times they let us all play) but within the first 3 months of being in the state during winter my neighbors behind our home had their own ice rink and was a family of brothers (one in my grade) the rest where on the variety hockey team that I was on myself later. I would learn to skate when they wasn’t using their ice rink and after learning to skate within a few days I began playing hockey with them and would get wiped all over the rink but kept at it every time I’d get crushed or fall hard. The next year I joined a team and quickly became our teams leading scorer (goals, assists, points) and was voted the best all around player because I would always be pushing to prevent odd man breaks on our goalie along with covering for the defense if they got a breakaway where I wasn’t rushing in because I needed to score. That is how I got so many assists while playing or I’d use my puck handling skills to get to the point where the other team would have 2-3 people trying to steal the puck where I could easily pass it to my open teammates where they could shoot or do a cross pass to the other open teammate to get the easy goal. I’ve used the same type of training when I served in the military also to push myself and my brothers to our maximum so that we’d be ready for whatever was thrown at us. Even in video games this has worked well over the years when our team/group would train in a game we would always try to make the odds against us in changing scenarios so that when we would be greatly outnumbered by other groups who haven’t trained as we did we would be able to handle the situations with great ease. Most people in one game would always want ti 1v1 duel so we would do that along with 2v2, 3v3, 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 1v5, 1v everyone that we had online at the time (the goal for that was to survive and try to kill as many as possible but survive is the primary objective. One time in game I had 3 major groups trying to kill me with around 50-70 people throughout the hour plus long fight where they never got close and I was trolling them throughout the fight while killing over 15 of their combatants.). It is always good to push our limits in training within reason slowly getting more intense/difficult so that we’re constantly growing in our skills. This shouldn’t just be used with physical things but to push ourselves to expand our knowledge/intellectual capabilities so that we are working out every aspect of our bodies which eventually goes into our spiritual side. When we have a strong foundation in all 3 aspects of life there isn’t much that can rattle our world and we can see many problems before they even reveal themselves through discernment. I had always worked the physical/mental aspects heavily but noticed I was missing the proper spiritual structure in my life that helped link everything together with true meaning. I may have a vast knowledge and good physical strength/conditioning but I’m definitely not the strongest or all knowing which is why in life there is always room for our own improvements across every aspect of life. This will help us age much more gracefully than those that live sedentary lifestyles who will have likely end up getting degenerative brain diseases due to their lifestyles.
Reasonable, but the Jedi are discouraged from having that competitive mindset. That would lead to people like Exar Kun. He was OBSESSED w "surpassong" his master. And the moment he felt he had, he abandoned his master, met a Sith Lord and fell to the Dark Side. The problem is fans think of the force as a "superpower" while the Jedi look at it as a spiritual connection. It's not about being stronger than the next man for them, it's just about honing and strengthening your own connection. So trying to "surpass" your master's strength is not very Jedi-like behavior
@@cloudmaster182 I agree partially with you but we shouldn’t always be worried about competing against others as we should be competing against yesterday’s version of ourselves. With working out our spiritual side, mental side, and physical side of the sentient triangle will keep us at our peak while pushing us to each of our full potential. I believe it would work with the Jedi but the key is to find the right balance to ensure we keep ourselves in an isosceles triangle with equal balanced sides of strengths. We all are running our own races of life that all have different starting points and ending points so we shouldn’t be comparing ourselves to others but by a healthy competition between others helps us push ourselves to be the best versions of ourselves as long as you have a strong perseverance.
@@findit6333 no, John 15:18-19 18“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Well done. This conversation was very insightful. The idea that Obi-Wan and Anakin were forged for the Clone Wars inadvertently following the Sith Rule of Two is amazing and makes so much sense.
I read the Jedi Apprentice series as a kid and one thing people often forget is that by the time we see him in Phantom Menace Obi-Wan had already chilled out quite a bit. In that series the young Obi-Wan is hyper aggressive, domineering and downright violent. If I remember right master Yoda all but forces Obi-Wan onto Qui-Gon seeing him as the only teacher who can balance the young hot headed Jedi. In the books Obi-Wan is like Anakin in that he is often saving Qui-Gon from dangerous situations, he is fearless, aggressive and somewhat ruthless. I remind people of this when they doubt that Obi-Wan could defeat Maul after Qui-Gon failed to. It’s true that Qui-Gon was a true master but Obi-Wan could match Maul in sheer ferocity, particularly after his master was killed.
I seem to remember a quote from Yoda about him dueling that he would often pass up opportunities to win the bout in order to continue raining down on his opponent, he didn’t want to just win, he wanted to break his opponent down in a way that would stay with them…
I love the dynamic. Obi Wan gained the power, but seemed reluctant about it. He didn’t WANT to become that powerful. But in order to keep Anakin in check, he had to. Hearing Dooku’s thoughts during their final fight just shows how powerful both Obi Wan and Anakin had become…
More proof for my opinion that The Jedi misinterpreted The Force as well. Fire on its own is neither good nor evil. But wether it protects a village or burns it to the ground depends on who is holding it.
@@likeadog7752 I believe that every strike from Maul/Droids/General Grievous and of course Anakin would be like a piece of iron heating up and adding the chromium (survival) would turn Obi-wan into a piece of Beskar. IMO of course.
Awesome video! The dynamic between Anakin and Obi-Wan is my favorite Padawan / Master dynamic in Star Wars. Watching the prequels as a kid I never thought about the fact that Obi-Wan pretty much got a huge increase to his level cap by getting the spar with Anakin for so long. I often wonder how strong Anakin would have been in lightsaber combat had he been trained by Sidious from the beginning.
Obi wan and Anakin showed that with practices with a jedis mindset can make anyone powerful and they shouldn’t be afraid of it. Yes Anakin is kinda psychotic, but his heart was always to protect. Never conquer and that’s before the constant brainwashing Palpatine performs. If the Jedi order as a whole adopted this kind of thinking, they would be more proactive and even see their toxic relationship with the republic and focus only on, the force. And be strong Jedi in the process. Point is, the Jedi can stay Jedi while having some sith practices.
The problem with "proactive protection" is 'helping' people who don't want your help. It often ends in vast spy networks, informing on neighbors, disarmed populace, no privacy, and a highly authoritarian government. Wait a minute...
I think their chosen forms also helped speed up the improvement - Obi-Wan had to completely hone his defenses against Anakin's neverending barrage of attacks, and although he had no real intention of injuring his master Anakin had to learn to be even more efficient in his offenses as to not give Kenobi an opening - unstoppable force vs immovable object
I’ve never really thought about it, but it makes a lot of sense. To be able to keep up with Anakin, you have to constantly be getting better. I’ve always respected Obi-wan’s character, but not really his combat other than just “being capable”. But this really does give me a newfound respect for Obi-wan’s combat capabilities. Thanks for this video, I feel like it really enhanced my understanding of Obi-wan as a character. Also very interesting how it has an inherent foreshadowing of Anakin’s path to the dark side. He was always meant to go down that path.
6:00 This whole idea of how those that practice combat with the goal of becoming better than their opponent(s) and practicing proactively (which is implicit in war, and especially when that war involves both Jedi and Sith). This is why I maintain that Old Republic era Jedi (and Sith) were on another level compared to those of the high republic even at its end. I also agree with Kreia: "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."
The unorthodox way of master and apprentice training led to Anikin being led further into the dark side in my opinion but it also made obi-wan reach his full potential. Obi- wan is the poster child / logo of the Jedi . He’s a model Jedi .
That last bit about Anakin for me showed how similar him and the clones really are to each other both made for war played by sidious n deeply regretted it later
Yet more proof - if we needed any - that the Jedi Order had completely collapsed well before Order 66. Rigid dogmatism and infinite arrogance made them never question their ways or even _imagine_ they could be wrong.
Anakin and Vegeta had contrasting outcomes: Anakin turned to the dark side of the FORCE and became Darth Vader, while Vegeta ultimately became a hero not only because he wanted to surpass Goku it's because of Bulma, Trunks(both future and present selves) and Bulla 😉
What an enlightning viewpoint ! Altough I could see how Anakin would relish and thrive in his soldier life, pushing him to the Dark side and the love of conquest, I always thought the rivalry with Kenobi was more a Gimli-Legolas dynamic than a Sith dynamic ^^ I obviously missed a big step in Anakin's journey to the dark side.
Prepare for war, pray for peace. Weak men make hard times, but strong men make good times. One should always be ready for war, for in so being they will be strong. That strength, when wielded with virtue, will ward off evil, for despite what some think, evil is cowardly. The only think evil needs to prosper is for good men to do nothing. Even when evil waits in the shadows, if good men work on improving themselves they will ward off evil, for it will stay to the shadows, for fear of being smitten in the light.
You say obiwan started learning from 3 after his fight with Dooku. Yet I seem to remember it being explained that Obi-Wan took up the form after Qui Gon died.
Anakin, Obi-Wan, Windu, and Yoda are quite literally some of the strongest Jedi of all time. With a few exceptions, it was mainly these 4 that were on or above the era of the Clone Wars era Sith who were essentially the peak of the rule of 2 era (even though Palpatine is the only one who directly inherited that power, it was noted that Maul, Dooku and Vader were all threats to him in some capacity). While we don’t really know how much more powerful Yoda and Mace got during the Clone Wars, if they did get stronger at all…we know that Obi-Wan and Anakin’s 3 years of wartime battle experience pretty much caught up to 1000 years of the Dark Side power stacking itself
Good video.Fun fact:we always say - and its true - that Obi wasnt the best master to Anakin.BUT interestingly,since Obi-one had failed in the past and had his reasons to evolve/change and perfect his style,he had a big role in the end where Anakin was unstoppable in order 66.With any other masters,the master would simply let Anakin get stronger while he stays on the same lvl,while With Obi,they both constantly reached new hights and fast.This is probably one of the reason while Anakin not only did not die but got much stronger in the war.Obi -one did let him off the hooks so Anakin grew strong rapidly.Thus,i think any other master could not defeat Anakin after order66,besides maybe Yoda,since with other masters they would not push each other harder.
It kinda goes back to that "iron sharpens iron" thing that one of my commanders told me about. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan got better because their drills against each other kept their skills growing, sharpening their iron against one another. But yes, it does feel very much like a master and apprentice dynamic like what the Sith would use.
I think working and fighting with the chosen one Obiwan learned and felt the force more and more and used it better and better. With the continuous strife and training Kenobi became very powerful.
I understand why Obi-Wan and Anakin changed their lightsaber forms. Obi-Wan realized Ataru is useless. Anakin improved his Djem-So. This is great analysis. They needed to improve fast. And they were above everyone else. It's nice how they had friendly rivarly :) Brothers picking each other. And to use sports reference,Nole,Rafa and Roger constantly pushed each other beyond limits. The need to improve,to go further. One to surpass the other. Anakin had wrong attitude I think. May the Force be with you too always😁
6:49 just like Goku and Vegeta during DBZ; Ryu and Ken during Street Fighter; Liu Kang and Kung Lao in Mortal Kombat; and Yugi and Kaiba in the original Yu-Gi-Oh! Anime as proof of the effect a good rivalry could have on the individuals involved.
Just as two people might take completely different roads in response to grief, rivalry isn't necessarily a negative in and of itself. The question becomes what is the foundation and the direction of the rivalry?
I was about to say that geonosis defenitly took a mental toll on them they basically started the war and took a l....anakins original form was shein ? ...talk about him and ashoka next ....can anyone tell me mace windus original form before vapaad
I think you somehow misread Anakin's motivations. He felt that war was simpler than living in peace, not because war allowed him to be himself, but due to PTSD. Let's not forget he was a child soldier. He saw and did things no child should see and do. And the "life as a soldier was simple" idea is common among people who have went through very though, trauma inducing situations in war.
Best way I can describe how i see them is, regardless of if you mean anakin or vader, they both represent dark and light in some way which would mean they would naturally build on one another.
Could you do a holocron explaining Luke's Jedi Praxeum teachings on lightsaber combat to his son, niece and nephew in Legends? How Darth Caedus grew to be claimed as powerful as Vader, if not surpassing his grandfather.
My understanding has always been that the longer the war went on, the more the Jedi lost their connection with the force. This is the explanation of why they were defeated so easily with order 66.
It is unfortunately another thing the Jedi were half right and half wrong, they were not support rivalry among themself for it will bread infighting but wrong surpess a health does of compassion for it will help make them grow strong not just with the Force but also among themselves. If the Jedi Council did show Anakin more support and gently encourage other studants to befriend him then might turn out very differnetly.
All members of dookus disaster lineage prided themselves on mastering the lightsaber to a certain extent. Regardless of how maveric or traditional as Jedi . And even obi wan in his own way is unconventional as a Jedi luminara noted this in legends . But all members of dookus lineage were very stringent on mastering the lightsaber. Qui gon in master and apprentice would not allow obi wan to move beyond form 1 until he had mastered the form and it was second nature and only after did he allow obi wan to learn ataru which we see obi wan use in the phantom menace
Anakin and Obi-wan had become more skilled over time in lightsaber combat, through thousands of countless hours, hundreds of training sessions they practiced most things under the sun employing(they know the skill level of each other), they had fun doing it the crowd around them cheers for them whenever they achieve something spectacular. Anakin and Obi-wan didn't have time to wait they must in their mind and feelings. Anakin was knighted when the clone wars began.
I think Anakin and Obi-Wan should have been Gray Jedi, and worked on balancing both the light side and the dark side, I know Anakin would have benefited the most from that being the chosen one. The chosen one should have never walked only the light side nor only the dark side but both at the same time, and yet never be controlled by either one and instead the one in control of both.
A healthy rivalry and contention between two friendly people is nothing that even the Jedi truly frowned upon. It was simply a factor of life for nigh on a thousand years, that wide scale conflict against the with and involving the jedi had taken that focus away. I believe it is a mistake to say that Jedi did not duel with each other for sport, friendly competition and practice. Otherwise you wouldn't get skilled duelists like Dukoo, powerful fighters like Mace, tacticians like Plo-Koon, and ground commanders like Aayla Secura. Warfare was not a skill that was taught, but even in a time where they were truly being peace keepers, to let ones own skills not rise, or to let them dull, is foolish. While true that the Sentinels were the true Jedi Warriors of the Era, amongst the people of galaxy, wayfaring Samaritans with the combat skills to survive and thrive in nearly any circumstance. The fact that this "Class" of jedi still existed was show enough that the order didn't believe they couldn't be ready for conflict. Just that as a whole, they did not wish for it to happen to begin with. As such, wide spread training of such types was dismissed or even just fell out of favor. The art of the rare skill of Battle Meditation was not lost, but not so heavily trained in those that were discovered to bear the gift.
Do the comics and novels make it make more sense than just watching the movies and TV Cause he 100% is as strong as the writer needs him to be in the scenes they want, and all of a sudden isn't crazy powerful in another
Dooku ACTUALLY DID desert Peace however. An Everyone Knew it. Even the likes of Sideous (just as Palpatine planned) .. mightve been part WHY the Council wasn't too heart broke Anakin took him out.. an As for "not" meeting Saber using enemies... sure... just Maul an his brother... Ventress, Krell...an IF your really unfortunate an in wrong place at wrong time Dooku an/or Sideous... that's all.. an Anakin, unlike majority ACTUALLY discovered quite the knack for Combat both in a cockpit an swinging a blade among soldiers. An especially the strategy that came with it... every bit as capable as some the BEST rivals.. there even story Arcs on that.. Can't really blame him. He got more respect from the likes of Dooku an Grevious then quite a few Jedi.. an Dooku n Anakin mutually made it clear they didn't care much for or like each other
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On a separate note, all this confirms what I thought while watching Ahsoka during the flashback in the World Between Worlds - "Darth Vader was born on the battlefields of the Clone Wars."
if i remember correctly when it comes to ability in the force Obiwan is actually one of the weaker Jedi. his skill with the blade is what carried him through every conflict but he had faith in the force. so the fact that a Obiwan was able to keep pace with the chosen one i think highlights how great of a swordsman he became.
I think Obwan is the best personification of. "it does not matter how much power you have, its how you make use of what you got"
George Lucas: Let me show you Anakin and Obi-Wan are evenly matched with the dramatic Force push stalemate.
Additionally, Obi-Wan Form 3 Soresu doesn’t even work properly unless you are very good with the Force.
@@heatherleisureWell it's a fact he's got 1 the lowest midichlorens count,and in the lore he's defo considered 1 of the weakest.But he eventually achieved a better balance in the force than most jedi's.ment to be how he beat Anackin.Least that's what palpatine thought...its says it in 1 of his books,Apparently
@@bobsyme3118 what you said about midichlorians is simply is not true.
There is a reason Yoda is confident that Obi-Wan can solo Vader. And he would never send Obi-Wan on a pointless suicide mission with the Jedi so near extinction. That’s why he said Obi-Wan can’t fight Sidious (but he can fight Vader)
@@heatherleisurewrong, Yoda was confident in obi wans ability to defeat dark anakin for three reasons.1: he knew anakin his whole life, he trained him, he was familiar with his style and helped him hone it. 2: even if there was a slight chance of turning Vader back to the light, obi wan had the best chance to do it (besides padme but Yoda didn't know that). 3: there was literally no one else to deal with Vader, the only two masters who survived was obi wan and Yoda, that's it.
Obi wan was in fact one of the Jedi with lesser potential compared to others, but he was by far one of the most powerful. He embodied what it meant to be a jedi, if u look at the novels, there are parts that describe how powerful obi wan was, how he let the force flow through him as if he wasn't even there.
Do note that the reason for this low potential was intentional as Lucas probably wanted ppl out there to realize that hard work does play a role in star wars, and obi wan represented that.
“Jedi appear to grow more powerful in times of war”. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that anyone who trains for combat as a profession and survives war, comes out “more powerful” or a better fighter.
Not the point he’s making
@@H1jackpro It may not be the intended point, but it’s the reality of combat.
@@chrisburton3571 which is part of the point hes making
@@thinkintelligently5925 It’s an obvious point, so why not just come out and say it without making it sound like it’s something “special” for only Jedi.
@@chrisburton3571 because while it’s true for everyone there’s an exceptional improvement for force users. Lets say everyone increases their “power” by 50% in war time, force users such as Jedi or sith get more like 80% increase because of their sensitivity to the force improving and being honed
The Council underestimated the Kenobi/Skywalker team and did not understand that they were each 1/2 of a unit. By the end of the clone wars, I believe that Kenobi and Skywalker combined could have defeated the Emperor. I also never understood why Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Anakin instead of help him with Sidious. With a good plan Kenobi and Yoda would have defeated the Dark Lord and the. Perhaps with Padme’s help turn Anakin back to the light. But I know why George wrote it that way.
Because then the timeline would destroy our universe. How can obi wan and yoda defeat the emperor when hw already won.
Hell yeah they need to do a what if episode on this
One has to remember that at this point in time the Jedi have not faced an actual Sith threat in hundreds of years. It was a shock to everyone when Darth Maul came out of seemingly nowhere to kill Qui Gonn Jinn during the battle of Naboo, and when Yoda's former apprentice Dooku was outed as one. Yoda directly confronted Dooku a handful of times during the Clone Wars and each time he had complete and total control over the situation in spite of Dooku's best efforts. You could argue that Yoda's decision to send Obi-Wan to deal with Anakin was influenced by pressures caused by Order 66, but I personally think it was the final act of fatal complacency that had already doomed the Jedi order.
@@adriantallent8557 Interesting theory, I like it. It explains too why he is so broken the in speeder with Bail afterwards.
@@aenguswright7336 Yoda had convinced himself that he could handle it himself...which is ironically the same arrogance that felled Dooku!
Luke Skywalker would go on to repeat the same mistake with Ben Solo as well.
Me and my oldest friend were similar in our own way. We trained together every day and became so much more skilled than our peers.
“I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style. But who is greater? The creator of the killing form or the master of the classic form?”
The one that Mastered both themselves an then the Form in question. To the point even the most harmless move can be made deadly or lethal an same for the most lethal of techniques to merely detour or stun..
The friend of the swordsman who mastered the inventor's style via regular sparring
It's interesting how the rule of 2 can have a light side version, instead of murdering the teacher it's simply about surpassing them, ironically competition seems to be a good motivator for even the jedi
Yet another recurring theme from the Lucas Film Canon: Balance between Light and Dark, even if you lean more one way than the other. It’s cool to keep finding new ways in which both sides of the Force compliment each other rather than oppose (within reason, of course)
Definitely correct because even in sports when I was young training in ice hockey I would always train with the best people I could train against and quickly rise to their skill level if they where more advanced to begin with or help them increase their skills to give me a challenge to cause myself to become better at the same time. I always enjoyed having the difficult challenges of opposition who is as good or better than myself. With all of the close knit competition of us teammates we quickly learned what each other would do when in certain situations and always would be moving to either back up the other persons position because we knew what they was doing or we would go to a spot for a no look pass that would open up the ice for us to get a ton of scoring chances. This type of training goes well in virtually everything from sports, fighting sports, and anything that takes skill/physical prowess. When I moved to Alaska at the of 11 I hadn’t ever ice skated or played ice hockey (would enjoy field hockey in elementary school the couple times they let us all play) but within the first 3 months of being in the state during winter my neighbors behind our home had their own ice rink and was a family of brothers (one in my grade) the rest where on the variety hockey team that I was on myself later. I would learn to skate when they wasn’t using their ice rink and after learning to skate within a few days I began playing hockey with them and would get wiped all over the rink but kept at it every time I’d get crushed or fall hard. The next year I joined a team and quickly became our teams leading scorer (goals, assists, points) and was voted the best all around player because I would always be pushing to prevent odd man breaks on our goalie along with covering for the defense if they got a breakaway where I wasn’t rushing in because I needed to score. That is how I got so many assists while playing or I’d use my puck handling skills to get to the point where the other team would have 2-3 people trying to steal the puck where I could easily pass it to my open teammates where they could shoot or do a cross pass to the other open teammate to get the easy goal. I’ve used the same type of training when I served in the military also to push myself and my brothers to our maximum so that we’d be ready for whatever was thrown at us. Even in video games this has worked well over the years when our team/group would train in a game we would always try to make the odds against us in changing scenarios so that when we would be greatly outnumbered by other groups who haven’t trained as we did we would be able to handle the situations with great ease. Most people in one game would always want ti 1v1 duel so we would do that along with 2v2, 3v3, 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 1v5, 1v everyone that we had online at the time (the goal for that was to survive and try to kill as many as possible but survive is the primary objective. One time in game I had 3 major groups trying to kill me with around 50-70 people throughout the hour plus long fight where they never got close and I was trolling them throughout the fight while killing over 15 of their combatants.). It is always good to push our limits in training within reason slowly getting more intense/difficult so that we’re constantly growing in our skills. This shouldn’t just be used with physical things but to push ourselves to expand our knowledge/intellectual capabilities so that we are working out every aspect of our bodies which eventually goes into our spiritual side. When we have a strong foundation in all 3 aspects of life there isn’t much that can rattle our world and we can see many problems before they even reveal themselves through discernment. I had always worked the physical/mental aspects heavily but noticed I was missing the proper spiritual structure in my life that helped link everything together with true meaning. I may have a vast knowledge and good physical strength/conditioning but I’m definitely not the strongest or all knowing which is why in life there is always room for our own improvements across every aspect of life. This will help us age much more gracefully than those that live sedentary lifestyles who will have likely end up getting degenerative brain diseases due to their lifestyles.
Iron sharpens Iron
Reasonable, but the Jedi are discouraged from having that competitive mindset. That would lead to people like Exar Kun. He was OBSESSED w "surpassong" his master. And the moment he felt he had, he abandoned his master, met a Sith Lord and fell to the Dark Side.
The problem is fans think of the force as a "superpower" while the Jedi look at it as a spiritual connection. It's not about being stronger than the next man for them, it's just about honing and strengthening your own connection. So trying to "surpass" your master's strength is not very Jedi-like behavior
@@cloudmaster182 I agree partially with you but we shouldn’t always be worried about competing against others as we should be competing against yesterday’s version of ourselves. With working out our spiritual side, mental side, and physical side of the sentient triangle will keep us at our peak while pushing us to each of our full potential. I believe it would work with the Jedi but the key is to find the right balance to ensure we keep ourselves in an isosceles triangle with equal balanced sides of strengths. We all are running our own races of life that all have different starting points and ending points so we shouldn’t be comparing ourselves to others but by a healthy competition between others helps us push ourselves to be the best versions of ourselves as long as you have a strong perseverance.
'As iron sharpens iron, so too do two men sharpen one another'
Amen❤❤
Can we leave the bible out of star wars, thank you.
@@findit6333 why? this is great quote
@@findit6333 no, John 15:18-19
18“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Did that melt your little snowflake feelings? @@findit6333
Well done. This conversation was very insightful. The idea that Obi-Wan and Anakin were forged for the Clone Wars inadvertently following the Sith Rule of Two is amazing and makes so much sense.
Iron sharpens Iron
Bingo!
Well often a whetstone or grindstone would be used for sharpening iron but I digress
And so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend
I read the Jedi Apprentice series as a kid and one thing people often forget is that by the time we see him in Phantom Menace Obi-Wan had already chilled out quite a bit. In that series the young Obi-Wan is hyper aggressive, domineering and downright violent. If I remember right master Yoda all but forces Obi-Wan onto Qui-Gon seeing him as the only teacher who can balance the young hot headed Jedi. In the books Obi-Wan is like Anakin in that he is often saving Qui-Gon from dangerous situations, he is fearless, aggressive and somewhat ruthless. I remind people of this when they doubt that Obi-Wan could defeat Maul after Qui-Gon failed to. It’s true that Qui-Gon was a true master but Obi-Wan could match Maul in sheer ferocity, particularly after his master was killed.
I seem to remember a quote from Yoda about him dueling that he would often pass up opportunities to win the bout in order to continue raining down on his opponent, he didn’t want to just win, he wanted to break his opponent down in a way that would stay with them…
@@MJHdesproj god those were such good books
@MJHdesproj i remember the whole xanatos arc
@@itsascendingfr they’re honestly what got me reading more as a kid
@@MJHdesproj me too
I love the dynamic. Obi Wan gained the power, but seemed reluctant about it. He didn’t WANT to become that powerful. But in order to keep Anakin in check, he had to. Hearing Dooku’s thoughts during their final fight just shows how powerful both Obi Wan and Anakin had become…
I find it fitting how a mix of Jedi goodwill and Sith inherent rivalry between master and apprentice produced the best result possible
Ironic how the Dark Side help Obi Wan throughout the prequals.
More proof for my opinion that The Jedi misinterpreted The Force as well.
Fire on its own is neither good nor evil. But wether it protects a village or burns it to the ground depends on who is holding it.
@kaimagnus5760 that's actually true. Who are you? The Sun tribe from avatar?
How and when did the dark side help him?
@@likeadog7752 I believe that every strike from Maul/Droids/General Grievous and of course Anakin would be like a piece of iron heating up and adding the chromium (survival) would turn Obi-wan into a piece of Beskar.
IMO of course.
@@kaimagnus5760well said
Awesome video! The dynamic between Anakin and Obi-Wan is my favorite Padawan / Master dynamic in Star Wars. Watching the prequels as a kid I never thought about the fact that Obi-Wan pretty much got a huge increase to his level cap by getting the spar with Anakin for so long. I often wonder how strong Anakin would have been in lightsaber combat had he been trained by Sidious from the beginning.
I know you made a rank of each Lightsaber Duelist Tier List and it was awesome could you do a Force Power Tier List please
I would say this is also why Asoka was such a powerful youngling and Jedi herself.
So then I guess the follow up question to this is: "How much did Anakin's and Kenobi's rivalry influence Ahsoka's training under Anakin?"
Anakin reminds me a lot of Revan. Both believed they were meant for the battlefield and found adventure in the wars they fought in.
Obi wan and Anakin showed that with practices with a jedis mindset can make anyone powerful and they shouldn’t be afraid of it. Yes Anakin is kinda psychotic, but his heart was always to protect. Never conquer and that’s before the constant brainwashing Palpatine performs. If the Jedi order as a whole adopted this kind of thinking, they would be more proactive and even see their toxic relationship with the republic and focus only on, the force. And be strong Jedi in the process. Point is, the Jedi can stay Jedi while having some sith practices.
Learning from any source of wisdom is a sign of maturity. Doesn't mean you embrace their beliefs or reasoning. Just the lesson to be learned.
The problem with "proactive protection" is 'helping' people who don't want your help. It often ends in vast spy networks, informing on neighbors, disarmed populace, no privacy, and a highly authoritarian government.
Wait a minute...
Incredible take. Never considered the rule of two dynamic. That's a mind blowing perspective.
I think their chosen forms also helped speed up the improvement - Obi-Wan had to completely hone his defenses against Anakin's neverending barrage of attacks, and although he had no real intention of injuring his master Anakin had to learn to be even more efficient in his offenses as to not give Kenobi an opening - unstoppable force vs immovable object
Blaster deflection skills... the absolute master in that is Ahsoka in The Clone Wars with her double lightsabers.
I’ve never really thought about it, but it makes a lot of sense. To be able to keep up with Anakin, you have to constantly be getting better. I’ve always respected Obi-wan’s character, but not really his combat other than just “being capable”. But this really does give me a newfound respect for Obi-wan’s combat capabilities. Thanks for this video, I feel like it really enhanced my understanding of Obi-wan as a character. Also very interesting how it has an inherent foreshadowing of Anakin’s path to the dark side. He was always meant to go down that path.
6:00 This whole idea of how those that practice combat with the goal of becoming better than their opponent(s) and practicing proactively (which is implicit in war, and especially when that war involves both Jedi and Sith). This is why I maintain that Old Republic era Jedi (and Sith) were on another level compared to those of the high republic even at its end. I also agree with Kreia: "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."
The unorthodox way of master and apprentice training led to Anikin being led further into the dark side in my opinion but it also made obi-wan reach his full potential. Obi- wan is the poster child / logo of the Jedi . He’s a model Jedi .
From how you analysed this, I would say that I guess it's true that desperation can sometimes be the best motivation.
I truly love this perspective. It's not a common thought but it makes so much sense.
Anakin being able to match a master as a knight. Even make a master struggle during saber combat is impressive.
“One to embody the power, the other to crave it” -Darth Bane
Yo!!! I never thought of that parallel man. The dynamic between Obi-Wan and Anakin was similar to the rule of 2 is a brilliant point!!
That last bit about Anakin for me showed how similar him and the clones really are to each other both made for war played by sidious n deeply regretted it later
Good post. Never really thought about it but you make some great points as to power and competitive drive.
Iron sharpens Iron. True in our world too.
This is one of the greatest episodes of all-time!
Thank you, that clears up several questions I have had.
Yet more proof - if we needed any - that the Jedi Order had completely collapsed well before Order 66. Rigid dogmatism and infinite arrogance made them never question their ways or even _imagine_ they could be wrong.
I got to be honest this guy's one of my favorite TH-camrs
I find this vid exceptionaly interesting and informative, thank you :)
That’s so awesome how their training style could foreshadow Anakin going to the dark side
finally you talk about the lightside version of the rule of two!!!!
Obi-Wan worked super hard to even keep up with Anakin is amazing. We all know Anakin is the chosen one.
Another good break down on this channel on the Star Wars lore 🔥🔥🔥
Reminds me of Goku and Vegeta in ways. Two completely different universes, but same kinda rivalry just in reverse.
Anakin and Vegeta had contrasting outcomes: Anakin turned to the dark side of the FORCE and became Darth Vader, while Vegeta ultimately became a hero not only because he wanted to surpass Goku it's because of Bulma, Trunks(both future and present selves) and Bulla 😉
Anakin and Obi-Wan as a duo🔥🔥🔥 I wonder if Rex and Cody had a similar rivalry
What an enlightning viewpoint ! Altough I could see how Anakin would relish and thrive in his soldier life, pushing him to the Dark side and the love of conquest, I always thought the rivalry with Kenobi was more a Gimli-Legolas dynamic than a Sith dynamic ^^ I obviously missed a big step in Anakin's journey to the dark side.
Prepare for war, pray for peace. Weak men make hard times, but strong men make good times. One should always be ready for war, for in so being they will be strong. That strength, when wielded with virtue, will ward off evil, for despite what some think, evil is cowardly. The only think evil needs to prosper is for good men to do nothing. Even when evil waits in the shadows, if good men work on improving themselves they will ward off evil, for it will stay to the shadows, for fear of being smitten in the light.
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing.
You have so many amazing videos!
You say obiwan started learning from 3 after his fight with Dooku. Yet I seem to remember it being explained that Obi-Wan took up the form after Qui Gon died.
I like the idea that Anakin was arrogantly trying to surpass Obi wan and obi wan put in all of his effort to not let him succeed.
Anakin, Obi-Wan, Windu, and Yoda are quite literally some of the strongest Jedi of all time. With a few exceptions, it was mainly these 4 that were on or above the era of the Clone Wars era Sith who were essentially the peak of the rule of 2 era (even though Palpatine is the only one who directly inherited that power, it was noted that Maul, Dooku and Vader were all threats to him in some capacity). While we don’t really know how much more powerful Yoda and Mace got during the Clone Wars, if they did get stronger at all…we know that Obi-Wan and Anakin’s 3 years of wartime battle experience pretty much caught up to 1000 years of the Dark Side power stacking itself
Good video.Fun fact:we always say - and its true - that Obi wasnt the best master to Anakin.BUT interestingly,since Obi-one had failed in the past and had his reasons to evolve/change and perfect his style,he had a big role in the end where Anakin was unstoppable in order 66.With any other masters,the master would simply let Anakin get stronger while he stays on the same lvl,while With Obi,they both constantly reached new hights and fast.This is probably one of the reason while Anakin not only did not die but got much stronger in the war.Obi -one did let him off the hooks so Anakin grew strong rapidly.Thus,i think any other master could not defeat Anakin after order66,besides maybe Yoda,since with other masters they would not push each other harder.
It kinda goes back to that "iron sharpens iron" thing that one of my commanders told me about. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan got better because their drills against each other kept their skills growing, sharpening their iron against one another. But yes, it does feel very much like a master and apprentice dynamic like what the Sith would use.
Well, i don't really agree that Dooku was shocked. They 3 met during war several times. But aside from that cool
“I will do what I must.” -obi wan ..the realest Jedi 😂my boy was ready to put down his padawan
Great video and perspective. So true in real life
This explains a great deal about why Dooku trained multiple master swordsmen.
sometimes inadvertently
"they drilled each other constantly"
Daijobu desu
I think working and fighting with the chosen one Obiwan learned and felt the force more and more and used it better and better. With the continuous strife and training Kenobi became very powerful.
I understand why Obi-Wan and Anakin changed their lightsaber forms. Obi-Wan realized Ataru is useless. Anakin improved his Djem-So. This is great analysis. They needed to improve fast. And they were above everyone else. It's nice how they had friendly rivarly :) Brothers picking each other. And to use sports reference,Nole,Rafa and Roger constantly pushed each other beyond limits. The need to improve,to go further. One to surpass the other. Anakin had wrong attitude I think. May the Force be with you too always😁
They want that get back for that defeat at hands of dooku
6:49 just like Goku and Vegeta during DBZ; Ryu and Ken during Street Fighter; Liu Kang and Kung Lao in Mortal Kombat; and Yugi and Kaiba in the original Yu-Gi-Oh! Anime as proof of the effect a good rivalry could have on the individuals involved.
A video about the differences between Anakin's first and second lightsabers.
Just as two people might take completely different roads in response to grief, rivalry isn't necessarily a negative in and of itself. The question becomes what is the foundation and the direction of the rivalry?
I was about to say that geonosis defenitly took a mental toll on them they basically started the war and took a l....anakins original form was shein ? ...talk about him and ashoka next ....can anyone tell me mace windus original form before vapaad
I think you somehow misread Anakin's motivations. He felt that war was simpler than living in peace, not because war allowed him to be himself, but due to PTSD. Let's not forget he was a child soldier. He saw and did things no child should see and do. And the "life as a soldier was simple" idea is common among people who have went through very though, trauma inducing situations in war.
What did Luke say about Sith being weaker duelists again?
Best way I can describe how i see them is, regardless of if you mean anakin or vader, they both represent dark and light in some way which would mean they would naturally build on one another.
They also spent time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
Could you do a holocron explaining Luke's Jedi Praxeum teachings on lightsaber combat to his son, niece and nephew in Legends? How Darth Caedus grew to be claimed as powerful as Vader, if not surpassing his grandfather.
Where arth thou #AlmightyLoonie?🌎💘💰
No surprise there, they’re pretty much the dynamic duo of Star Wars
Great video!!
My understanding has always been that the longer the war went on, the more the Jedi lost their connection with the force. This is the explanation of why they were defeated so easily with order 66.
Similar to the Rule of Two...but did Obi-Wan *really* embody the power that Anakin craved?
But ultimately 2 friends trying to best each other is always going to make both bertter more than they know or understand
"They would drill each other constantly."
It is unfortunately another thing the Jedi were half right and half wrong, they were not support rivalry among themself for it will bread infighting but wrong surpess a health does of compassion for it will help make them grow strong not just with the Force but also among themselves. If the Jedi Council did show Anakin more support and gently encourage other studants to befriend him then might turn out very differnetly.
All members of dookus disaster lineage prided themselves on mastering the lightsaber to a certain extent. Regardless of how maveric or traditional as Jedi . And even obi wan in his own way is unconventional as a Jedi luminara noted this in legends . But all members of dookus lineage were very stringent on mastering the lightsaber. Qui gon in master and apprentice would not allow obi wan to move beyond form 1 until he had mastered the form and it was second nature and only after did he allow obi wan to learn ataru which we see obi wan use in the phantom menace
Sith lord is our speciality
Anakin and Obi-wan had become more skilled over time in lightsaber combat, through thousands of countless hours, hundreds of training sessions they practiced most things under the sun employing(they know the skill level of each other), they had fun doing it the crowd around them cheers for them whenever they achieve something spectacular.
Anakin and Obi-wan didn't have time to wait they must in their mind and feelings.
Anakin was knighted when the clone wars began.
Shout out to ME for just proposing this observation be made in recent comments as I observed that nobody has made this analysis!🎉🎉🎉
Thank you!!
No Anakin, you can’t just turn off my saber during a fight
Alao if i remember correctly obiwan was already practicing form 3 in attack of the clones just not the master of it like he was in episode 3
It reminds me of goku and vegeta rivalry always pushing each other to get stronger
I think Anakin and Obi-Wan should have been Gray Jedi, and worked on balancing both the light side and the dark side, I know Anakin would have benefited the most from that being the chosen one. The chosen one should have never walked only the light side nor only the dark side but both at the same time, and yet never be controlled by either one and instead the one in control of both.
A healthy rivalry and contention between two friendly people is nothing that even the Jedi truly frowned upon. It was simply a factor of life for nigh on a thousand years, that wide scale conflict against the with and involving the jedi had taken that focus away. I believe it is a mistake to say that Jedi did not duel with each other for sport, friendly competition and practice. Otherwise you wouldn't get skilled duelists like Dukoo, powerful fighters like Mace, tacticians like Plo-Koon, and ground commanders like Aayla Secura. Warfare was not a skill that was taught, but even in a time where they were truly being peace keepers, to let ones own skills not rise, or to let them dull, is foolish. While true that the Sentinels were the true Jedi Warriors of the Era, amongst the people of galaxy, wayfaring Samaritans with the combat skills to survive and thrive in nearly any circumstance. The fact that this "Class" of jedi still existed was show enough that the order didn't believe they couldn't be ready for conflict. Just that as a whole, they did not wish for it to happen to begin with. As such, wide spread training of such types was dismissed or even just fell out of favor. The art of the rare skill of Battle Meditation was not lost, but not so heavily trained in those that were discovered to bear the gift.
for the record, form 5 might be known by a better name than djem so. its called shien.
it's what Sidious wanted. He needed Obi-Wan to get strong to train Anakin for him.
But strong enough to fight this Lord Sidious... Kenobi was not.
I wonder if that was his intention
Do the comics and novels make it make more sense than just watching the movies and TV
Cause he 100% is as strong as the writer needs him to be in the scenes they want, and all of a sudden isn't crazy powerful in another
Training with Anakin definitely made Obi Wan better. No doubt about it.
Day 466 of asking for a part 3 of what if anakin was trained by qui gon
Goku vs Vegeta for rivalries making individuals stronger. Nuff said
In the end, the apprentice did try to kill the master just like the Sith rule of two
Dooku ACTUALLY DID desert Peace however. An Everyone Knew it. Even the likes of Sideous (just as Palpatine planned) .. mightve been part WHY the Council wasn't too heart broke Anakin took him out.. an As for "not" meeting Saber using enemies... sure... just Maul an his brother... Ventress, Krell...an IF your really unfortunate an in wrong place at wrong time Dooku an/or Sideous... that's all.. an Anakin, unlike majority ACTUALLY discovered quite the knack for Combat both in a cockpit an swinging a blade among soldiers. An especially the strategy that came with it... every bit as capable as some the BEST rivals.. there even story Arcs on that.. Can't really blame him. He got more respect from the likes of Dooku an Grevious then quite a few Jedi.. an Dooku n Anakin mutually made it clear they didn't care much for or like each other
Anakin spare time was spent training, building thing, with padame or more training
Skywalker got on the Council by default 😅