I don’t have to even watch this video to tell you that: for all of Palpatines meticulous planning, he would have never made his own selfish intentions a toss up, Mace found a shatter point and Sidious made the best of it, as only he could. He had a loaded deck.
That's my thinking too, I think Palpatine did both in his malicious way: lost the duel to Windu, but knew how to use it in his favor, to seduce Anakin.
I would agree. Sidious wasn't just going to let anybody into his office. He would know if the jedi were coming for him before they even got there. My opinion is if he knew Anakin would not be there, he would have gotten away before the jedi even got to his office. And if the jedi still somehow got to him before he could get away, Sidious had control of the senate and the courts. It's my belief he would have surrendered peacefully and forced the jedi to beat him in the courts that HE controlled. Either way, the jedi look like the bad guys, Order 66 is put in motion, and events still carry out as planned.
@@dominiclamar6565He told Mace he was surprised by his early arrival, so it did seem that he was caught off-guard. Also no clone troopers or royal guards.
@@Leondrius Palpatine also said he had the power to save Padme. He was LYING. Palpatine knew with Yoda on Kashyyk and Obi-Wan on Utapau, there would be no one to keep Anakin from turning to the dark side. With Mace and Yoda split, he knew he could take on any Jedi. And if he got caught by surprise in a duel, as he did with Mace, Anakin would ALWAYS be his ace in the hole. It was a great plan, although not perfect
@@corie_1032but aren't those books written by Star Wars nerds who fell in love with Palpatine so hard that they made him more powerful than Lucas envisioned?
@@JWStreeter I wouldn't say that all the rest is ridiculous, there are some parts of the Expanded Universe that are very cool. I really enjoyed playing KotOR, and I think Kyle Katarn's story is awesome.
1. Sidious never takes risks if he can possibly avoid it. He always stacks the deck if he can, and he only gets personally involved if the stakes are sufficiently high, if he's forced to act - Maul's actions on Mandalore, and the Jedi closing in on him, forced his hand. He manipulated circumstances to ensure that Anakin would be there, while Obi-Wan and Yoda were off-world, so as to appeal to him if needs be, but that's it. He also did everything he could to avoid fighting Yoda after becoming Emperor, because he knew there was no benefit. 2. Trying to control a lightsabre duel against one of the best there has ever been is the very definition of risky, if not outright stupid. 3. Sidious is an excellent duellist, but he is NOT one of the very, very best. As you guys cited, he was suddenly very worried when he heard about Dooku effectively stalemating Yoda on Geonosis. When facing Maul and Savage, he always tries to keep them apart, take them on one at a time, and makes doubly sure to stun Maul before turning on Savage alone and finishing him. In the following combat, Maul actually gets the upperhand through rage, superior size, and superior skill. Sidious stops looking amused, manages to break the blade lock, and as always, resorts to bullying in the Force. He tries to do the same thing against Windu, and it's utterly ineffective - they're stalemated, and with Force lightning blasting back at him, Windu has the upper hand. He tries to do it yet again against Yoda, when it becomes clear that he simply cannot beat the Jedi Grandmaster with a blade, and he looks genuinely afraid a couple of times, first when he can't overpower Yoda, then when Yoda chucks one of the pods straight back at him, and then again when Yoda meets his Force Lightning with Tutaminis and cannot be overwhelmed, causing a massive energy backlash. Yoda falls, and Palpatine, frightened, is barely scrabbling at one of the pods. If he hadn't caught the edge, odds are good that he would have died an extremely undignified death. And he doesn't go down to finish Yoda, but escapes - uncharateristic from a total sadist, except entirely in-character for someone who KNOWS that there is no benefit to fighting Yoda at this point. Moreover, Yoda has proved his better in lightsabre combat, and his equal with the Force, whatever anyone else says. However, Sidious has already won, by destroying the Jedi. That's where his power really is.
@@CO77INS Only after he managed to warm up though. Sidious reverse captured him. I definitely agree with the other guy, Sidious was not quite on the same level of saber mastery of Windu, but he didn't need to be to pull out a win apparently. He just chose not to take that win right away. And that win slipped away and belonged to Mace while Anakin allowed Sidious to steal it. All that battling until Anakin showed up, it was pretty much Sidious as an old man slowly losing a fight, getting worn out. But he already checkmated Mace and the movie also clearly shows that. But lightsaber combat isn't chess, so that didn't count as a win. And that's why we say he threw the match. I believe he did because he didn't follow through on the 'checkmate' vibe and just let Windu fight him where WIndu eventually got in the zone and it's okay if Sidious lost at that point, nobody's perfect.
Totally agree with everything you said. I wish Mace would get more love. I'm happy to hear about the new novel, The Glass Castle. Dude is literally top 5 most powerful Jedi of ALL TIME.
Wow you sure wrote a lot huh. The only thing I don’t understand is that for all of his supposed brilliance, the way he dies at the hands of Vader is stupidity at its finest. He knew exactly how Vader felt about him and his son. He still chose to leave himself vulnerable and expose himself to two sky walkers that want to defeat him. I don’t think a master Batman level planner would ever put himself in that position. And then he died lol. Truly a buzzkill way to end the movies. But hey y’all can start debating if palpatine let Vader kill him so he can come back and then get killed by Ray skywalker 😂😂😂
@@arielguzman9336 If you read through the Bane novels trilogy, there's a section where Bane is learning about how to perform force lightning, and he learns that the key is something along the lines of focusing really hard on dark emotions... in particular, hatred. So the Emperor was talking so much trash against Luke to build up that hatred. And all this attention to hatred likely didn't leave him vulnerable to an angry Vader which could have been what he expected, but it left him vulnerable to a concerned-parent Vader which he was incapable of detecting while performing the FL move.
Vapaad is the perfect answer for someone like Sidious. I’m a Sidious fan but Windu clearly won this and Sidious used manipulation to draw on Anakin’s fear and impulsivity which is ideal for a true Sith like him. Dooku’s is much weaker than Sidious but he uses the dark side in an extremely cool and controlled manner. Compared to anakin and Sidious. Anakin uses it like a hammer whereas Sidious used it like an axe. Dooku on the other hand uses it like a sword used in fencing. Wasting no energy and fighting with composure, focus, and deadly precision. Dooku Mixing his Jedi skills along with his fighting style I can imagine vapaad surprisingly failing against him but Sidious once reveling in the dark side would indulge too much underestimating Windu and making mistakes hence his him being disarmed
It's not only that. Remember that raw power isn't everything. Anakin got beat by Obi-wan who isn't close to him in power. Mace, and Yoda just match up good with Palpatine because they are very skilled, and near his power level. The fights could go either way, but they have what it takes to take him. Mace won that fight, but could have just as easily lost it.
@@headstrongbachelor3152 "Palpatine could have killed Mace with force crush if he wanted to." When would someone use such a power? Oh, like in a life-threatening situation and clearly being outmatched by Windu? But he didn't. And not to mention, Vapaad protected him from force lightning, which is a force power attack. So, what we can conclude here is that Palpatine could not do such a thing against Windu because he was outmatched and overpowered. And even if you still want to think this way, remember: George Lucas said Windu won.
@@Cadd801 Mace could only direct the force lightening back to Sidious because lightsaber have the power to deflect force lightning in general. Vapaad do not protect against force power attacks such as force grip, force crush and force push. Sidious played weak to manipulate Anakin to betray the Jedi.
He lost the blade fight... As intended.. Mace would never win a battle including force powers as well, like Sidious against Yoda..( wich Yoda actually won as well, collecting a full force lightning from Sidious with his bare hand, but got unlucky and blown away the wrong way and fell down 10 meters, getting hurt and guards showing up..) So yeah mace beat him in a LIGHT SABER fight, would never win in a real fight where Sidious wen't all out like against Yoda.
Palpatine took a gamble but a calculated one, to turn Anakin to the dark side. Revealing his identity was very risky and the potential for him to be killed was there but it worked out 8n the end. He lost the battle but won the war.
@@TechmejJust in lightsaber combat... Also Sidious disn't even try, or use a single ability.. He lost yes, but on purpose, or failed hubris that he was able to beat him in a lightsaber fight alone.. He didn't dare do that with Yoda lol.. He even tried running away from the battle
I prefer to think that Palps entered the fight thinking Mace was no match for him, but ended up losing to him and Anakin came in at the perfect time for Palps to take advantage of the situation and turn his loss into a victory. Prequel Palps was cunning enough to think on his feet like that.
I really like your explanation; I think it fits the characters really well. Mace was the worst match up for Palps, and it's definitely in character for Palps to look down on the Jedi as a whole after years upon years of successfully sneaking around right under their noses and manipulating them. He wouldn't respect Mace and in that hubris would quickly get taken off guard and possibly overwhelmed by Mace's vapad. But the quick thinking to turn Mace's superior position in the fight into his own downfall is also spot on Palps too. Such a good explanation for it! Whether it'd come out the same way if Palps DID respect Mace enough to come into the fight on guard and treating Mace as a genuine threat is an interesting question. I'd lean more towards Palps winning that clash
And another thought on the reverse; I simply can't imagine Palps putting himself entirely in the hands of another. He does not trust and the thought of being truly defenseless and utterly in another's power would be poison to him. If he really did throw the fight then unless he has something up his sleeve that was never mentioned, he would be utterly in Mace and Anakin's hands. That just doesn't sound like something Palps would allow to happen.
That's what I think too but I also think that he didn't take the win early when he had the chance. Once Mace warmed up, then it was up to Anakin to save the old man's hide. Palpatine chose to lose so that he could win a new apprentice. He didn't like Dooku because Dooku wanted to have a brotherhood, but replacing him was a tricky matter, even though he knew what to do, he had to play his roles very carefully.
@@funkydinosaur Well, he is the chancellor, IN HIS OFFICE... On the capital planet.... If he didnt have 5-20 aces up his sleeve, Id be shocked.... Him taking a careless risk here and having to fallback makes less than zero sense narratively, and would be beyond completely out of character
@@tandava-089 He had his fingers outstretched and pointing at Windu when Anakin stepped in. He clearly was ready to blast more lightning or throw a push if the blade got too close. The boot in the face from Windu was legit and he won that part of the fight, but it hardly made Palpatine defenceless. Lightning didn't ruin people's looks before, so it means Palpatine always looked like that.
The idea that Sidious threw the fight assumes he KNEW Mace would not skewer him immediately, and he couldn't have known that. Also it has him certain that Anakin would arrive to be converted and he didn't KNOW that would happen. Sidious could train against every combat style BUT Vaapad, so this would have been his first encounter with it and was stalemated with a finite amount of energy to put into the fight. It was inevitable that Mace would have beaten Sidious, and Anakin arriving just gave him a chance to turn the stalemate/ loss into a bid to convert Anakin with a non zero chance that Mace would end him the instant his defenses were down.
Yeah, a lot of folks like to imagine that Palpatine was such a skilled manipulator that he could control every single factor and variable down to the second. While we've seen that he is very...very skilled at manipulating people there are limits to what he can control. We've seen before that Palpatine had been stymied by political opposition that resisted his clandestine efforts to undermine, like Duchess Satine. We've seen things go Palpatine's way due to what could only be considered lucky coincidences that he simply was given the opportunity to leap on. Like the faulty inhibitor chip. If a less shrewd and observant commander than Admiral Trench had been involved that situation could have gotten away from Palpatine. If Maul hadn't crossed paths with Death Watch, Palpatine still would have had Duchess Satine's political opposition holding back his efforts. He's not an omniscient god. And quite often, Palpatine had to make things up on the fly to account for things he could not control.
He would have known that Anakin was coming. He also has Mace beat early but didn't finish him off. Old Palpy also very much relied on foresight and possibly foresaw the future and that Mace wouldn't immediately kill him. This can be seen from both sides though.
@@tootriv211 Simple, because she's power incarnate and has never had to use deception. Palpatine is at the top of his game here and had been around these Jedi for over a decade learning about them only to reveal himself at the 11th hour when the dark side had never been stronger.
It always seemed silly that Palpatine could beat Windu. Palpatine had been a great lightsaber student 30 years before. Windu has been training daily and on the front lines of a war for 3 years.
Facts the only thing that palpatine had going for him is the fact that mace was not the chosen one and palpatine knew it I believed that anakin was the outcome his n plagueis experiment. Mace was a better combat warrior and his shatter vision ability puts him above most Jedi even if mace did strike him down I don’t think palpatine would lose he would find a way back cuz only the chosen one can bring balance to the force
Just because he said it doesn’t mean that you have to accept it. You’re free to interpret the story however you want. You know, death of the author and all that. With all that being said, Mace won.
@tsm784 There is still the reality of the events that took place in the storyline according to said storylines creator. It's not a matter of opinion what took place in another persons story. What the creator/ author says is a fact pertaining to their creation is the law concerning such. Something headcannon Fandom seems to have difficulty understanding.
Off topic but if Mace Windu was the one to train Anakin things would have played out different. Obi Wan was new to being a master and they let his first padawon be a child with the potential to become the most powerful man in history knowing the trauma he came in with. Anakin and Windu would have butt heads A LOT at first but through missions and training overtime Windu would realize they have similarities. Windu’s unique talent for having enough inner strength to resist the dark side would have eventually rubbed off on anakin through much time, trial, and error and on the other side anakin would not only blossom into a powerful Jedi but one capable of resisting the dark side and channeling it to fight for good. Windu’s hesitation to teach Anakin Vapaad due to its dangers would bruise Anakin’s ego and motivate Anakin to overcome his demons to master that form and through obtaining self mastery he becomes an unshakable force in body and mind. Anakin’s training under Windu would be a journey complete self mastery with a careful eye of Anakin’s inner darkness Obi Wan missed all this Windu wouldn’t. Instead of being fed constant praise for how talented he is he will be taught absolute self control and humility making him a Jedi he truly overcame his fear. Either which way he was destined to destroy palpatine. So if he had taken this path it would have been the path everyone initially presumed to take. Facing the Sith as a Jedi and not as one of them
Yeah, I thought 'why not Yoda?' but Windu might have worked out okay as well. Obi-Wan was too young to train someone else, they should have sent him on a few missions as a knight first at least before making him anyone's master. Windu probably didn't want to train Anakin, but he probably could have been convinced to do it if some effort was made for it. In the end I think they put too much attention on Obi-Wan agreeing to train the boy. Qui-Gon didn't literally mean he needed the boy trained by Obi-Wan specifically. He just wanted the boy to learn to use the Force. Obviously he didn't want Maul teaching him, so Obi-Wan wasn't the worst possible choice... but I don't think Qui-Gon thought it was ideal. Obviously Qui-Gon wanted to "train the boy". Another interesting choice for teacher may have been Dooku. I don't know if that's possible since I think that was around the time when Dooku was leaving the Jedi Order. On the other hand, maybe him leaving the order and taking Anakin with him wherever he went would have been good for Anakin. He was the one that was working with Qui-Gon, training him... so he's kind of like a grandpa for Anakin rather than the brother that Obi-Wan was...and Grandpas and Grandmas often make for great parents surprisingly. All that extra experience does wonders.
Given that George has changed his mind more than once - contrast his early opinions of the Dark Side as nothing more than a perversion to the Mortis Trilogy, the last major story arc that he had a major hand in, where Filoni et al were listening to him very carefully (which is why the storyboarded scene of Bane and Revan didn't appear), where the Son and the Dark Side are considered a natural part of the Force.
nahhh palpatine got arrogant and slipped, windu took advantage using vapaad + shatter point… anakin comes in and stops windu etc. this being the case is also just much more poetic, the dark side being defeated, the only thing anakin has to do is listen to windu. it’s so ironic
I think it’s both palp slipped but I don’t think he was as weak as he was portrayed to anakin that was to make him believe he needed help as we saw after mace hands sliced off sidious fully comes out even says unlimited power thus showing us that the dark side clouds our vision and and can easily deceive their opponents, especially manipulation being palpatines strong force abilities
Here's the definitive canon answer: "He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade. Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated." 2022 Disney/Lucasfilm/fanhome encyclopedia collection "Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber." "His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly." Disney/lucasfilm/ Fanhome Encyclopedia collection 2022 "During the confrontation with Mace Windu, the office window was smashed. Soon after, Palpatines weapon fell onto the streets of Coruscant, but it was all part of the Sith's plan." 2022 disney/lucasfilm/ fanhome encyclopedia collection
Beyond excited to give this a listen later! I always love when the Archivist shows up for these long form videos, I really appreciate the perspectives he brings to the table, and I enjoy listening to you both bounce ideas off each other 👏
I personally believe it's a mix of both. Did Mace manage to overpower Sidious through his blade mastery and Vaapad? Yes, and this matches what Lucas said on the matter. However... Does this mean Sidious was beaten? I don't think so. Against Yoda eventually he also lost his lightsaber, but the fight was far from over. Sidious wields tremendous force power and that's what he believes in: his use of a lightsaber is mainly to mock and match the jedi. This is were he manipulates Anakin, pretending to be weak after being disarmed... When he is not. He still had fight left in him.
The only way to argue for Palpatine is assumptions/head canon… Mace literally has multiple staff and creators saying he won soooo he won until someone officially retcons it🤷🏾♂️
"He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade. Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated." 2022 Disney/Lucasfilm/fanhome encyclopedia collection "Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber." "His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly." Disney/lucasfilm/ Fanhome Encyclopedia collection 2022 "During the confrontation with Mace Windu, the office window was smashed. Soon after, Palpatines weapon fell onto the streets of Coruscant, but it was all part of the Sith's plan." 2022 disney/lucasfilm/ fanhome encyclopedia collection
Remember people, Mace Windu was leader of the Order and the best duelist WITHOUT using Vaapad. There were no darksiders and Sith had been unheard of for thousands of years. The man literally had the Sith Kryptonite Lightsaber form, barely used it, and was STILL the strongest along with Yoda. You honestly think Palpy stood a chance?? That's like Jiren from Dragonball Super being able to go Super Saiyan but he never uses it cuz he doesn't have to. That's basically who Mace Windu is. EVERYONE on his home planet is Force-sensitive. Dude was a GOAT even before the Phantom Menace.
He lost the blade fight... As intended.. Mace would never win a battle including force powers as well, like Sidious against Yoda..( wich Yoda actually won as well, collecting a full force lightning from Sidious with his bare hand, but got unlucky and blown away the wrong way and fell down 10 meters, getting hurt and guards showing up..) So yeah mace beat him in a LIGHT SABER fight, would never win in a real fight where Sidious wen't all out like against Yoda..
I also think that Palpatine purposefully lets Windu reflect his lightning, almost as a way of "payment" he is willing to permanently disfigure himself and endure immense pain in order to seem even more of a victim in Anakin's eyes.
Nope. Here is the problem. Mace beat him. 3 Jedi masters he killed were at his feet. Everyone forgets that. He couldn’t and wouldn’t play victim to anakin when he slaughtered 3 Jedi masters. Their dead bodies are there. Palpatine is a mid Sith Lord and the whole structure of the Jedi and republic failing is their own hubris, not some dipshit from Naboo
@@ashashby678 while i’ve accepted that mace won, palpatine definitely could and would play victim even after slaughtering 3 jedi masters. he was a master manipulator and oversaw all the events that sowed discontent, instability, and increasing corruption within the republic. he took advantage of the jedi’s hubris (which was only directed at the possibility of the sith or a shadowy figure/group exisiting without their knowledge). if it wasn’t for palps, republic could have stood for another 1000 years. he is definitely not a “mid” sith lord
Loving these long form discussions! Keep it up, gents! Love to hear y’all talk and compare the different eras of Sith. How the old masters hold up against rule of two vs newer era of Kryat.
Shatterpoint along with Vapaad is basically the Sith silver bullet. Sith are self-interested Palpatine would have NEVER willingly thrown himself on an alter to attempt to lure Anakin, that would entail selflessness, which is inconceivable.
- Sith are self-interested Quite the contrary. Sith are the most selfless of all. Entire sith philosophy, their whole reason to exist was to *create Sith'ari* . They kill, they suffer and die at the hands of each other as well as at the hands of their enemies for this goal and this goal alone. They take acolytes to perpetuate this cycle of suffering and self-improvement for this goal alone. Such is the selflessness and ultimately - self-sacrifice of the Sith.
I would argue that Palpatine or rather Sidious still saw the value in having a partner, even though he was going to try his best to make sure that partnership was unequal. Something strong with the Force to help you deal with matters, someone that was loyal to you... that's what Anakin represented to him. He was familiar with Anakin since he knew that his master's effort combined with his own helped bring Anakin to life. He had every reason to think that he could manipulate Anakin. It was hidden in the speech in the movie. 'He could influence the midichlorians to create life' was a line spoken directly to Anakin and Anakin not knowing what it meant makes it clear that there wasn't too much thought given to it from Anakin's part. It makes me wonder what Anakin knew about his birth. He probably only knew what was told to Qui-Gon all those years ago. If he had gone to help his mother sooner, maybe she would have been able to give him some useful information that could have been a clue that the Dark Side of the force was watching him or something like that. And maybe she would have had nothing useful to say that she hadn't already said. But we'll never know now because she was tortured and dried out. I actually wonder if Sidious is the reason why his mother was captured in the first place. Why did the sand people do that? I mean, she was captured for a month according to the man that married her...why continue giving her water if it's so precious? I tried to get some more information on their culture but there's not much there. Even though there are apparently stories of a 'Tusken Raider Jedi' and there's also Tahiri from The New Jedi Order as well as a book series before that one(which I don't remember the name of just now) who was also from that culture but other than the comment about Boba Fett being accepted by raiders there's no clue for why they were keeping her alive. Maybe they were trying to get her to join their culture and she wasn't fitting in. But I find that difficult to believe unless they got her gender wrong or maybe she just didn't want to betray her new husband because of their wedding vows or something? Dark theories, but what else do we have? Maybe it was as simple as them wanting her as a wife and she wouldn't give herself up sexually because dying was better than cheating on her husband who apparently didn't have a strong enough army to take her back...? And if that's the case, then I guess Sidious had nothing to do with it.
@@iNsOmNiAcAnDrEw Sidious wanted a shield strong enough to last through galactic oppression PERIOD, nothing more. Had Anakin not turned in that precise moment Sidious would have likely attempted to electrocute him to death along with Mace Windu while Anakin was deliberating about what to do with his guard down just to not have to worry about getting offed later by Anakin himself. Ultimately Sidious would have continued to gather lesser shields and he may have even collected Maul back. Anakin wasn’t so important that he would have practiced something deemed absolutely deplorable to a Sith such as selflessness. As for the Tuskans, a people made strangers in their own land by off-worlders…they were made callous by desert life. I can’t see them seeking permission for something they could take by force, particularly from an off-worlder. That had become the way for the most Tuskan tribes. You have to keep in mind why Shmi Skywalker would have had any value to Tuskans in the first place… shift focus to the fact that Cliegg Lars was a MOISTURE FARMER IN THE DESERT. As a Tuskan you could continue subsistence on what was likely nasty little scorpion turds in the desert or you could also hold a moisture farmer’s wife hostage, negotiate for real water and potentially bleed his business dry. While it was never mentioned that they negotiated for water, it’s more than reasonable to assume that they did as bartering was one of their chief survival skills. Shmi likely attempted to escape on her own as anyone else would have and sustained beatings for that. Shmi was likely also the last in line to receive food or water and as a result, being human, over time eventually succumbed to the brutality of desert.
@@Imhotep397 I don't think losing on purpose is a qualifier for being selfless. Being selfless means doing something for someone that's not yourself. It means forsaking yourself. By throwing the fight, he played Windu for a fool, and that wasn't selfless behavior, if anything it was arguably dependent behavior(because he's depending on Anakin to follow through on what he's trying to manipulate Anakin to do, which in this case is defend him from the 4 Jedi masters that Anakin knew went to go see him) which would be rare among people like Palpatine, but not completely unheard of or even abnormal in general. As for Shmi, I still like my new theory better than your alternative, but thanks for offering the perspective/scenario explanation.
@@iNsOmNiAcAnDrEw Losing on purpose with the potential to die at the hands of one of the deadliest saber duelists in the history of the Jedi order (by canon) is kind of the definition of selflessness. Had Windu not hesitated the result would have been the same as the Jango Fett result. The only recourse Sidious would have had in that case would have been after his death Anakin picking up the Sith legacy to try to save his wife, again this would have been an unacceptable choice to a Sith Master. With Shatterpoint, the only path to failure is hesitation on the part of the wielder, there’s no wriggling out of the result. Sidious would likely have known that. When he was out of options and about to bite the dust he used sympathy manipulation as a last second effort to save his own skin.
Stupendous Team, I appreciate all the work you do ! The longer form discussions are definitely my favorite of all your great content ! Hope to see more coming!
I think one thing many people forget is that although Palpatine is powerful and a master manipulator, he is also VERY lucky. He got lucky that he was able to knock Yoda’s lightsaber away and that Yoda was thrown further away by the lightning repulsion blast because he was so small (leading to Yoda falling all the way down and sealing Palpy’s victory as reinforcements arrived), got lucky Anakin arrived when he did to dismember Mace or Mace would have killed him by way of Vaapad, got lucky little Annie survived being chopped up and burnt to a crispy by Obi-Wan, but his hatred kept him a live when he should’ve died. Don’t get me wrong, he is a master manipulator who worked for decades to destroy the jedi, and I consider him to be the greatest villain in cinematic history… but it was also the will of the force that everything went his way because bro got lucky over and over. I think in the novel it even states that when Yoda is dueling Sidious that he felt the force shifting and that it favored the dark side that day
I don't even understand where the debate is. Windup clearly and obviously won fair and square. Throwing a fight against somebody like windu is so far beyond stupid it's laughable
He lost the blade fight... As intended.. Mace would never win a battle including force powers as well, like Sidious against Yoda..( wich Yoda actually won as well, collecting a full force lightning from Sidious with his bare hand, but got unlucky and blown away the wrong way and fell down 10 meters, getting hurt and guards showing up..) So yeah mace beat him in a LIGHT SABER fight, would never win in a real fight where Sidious wen't all out like against Yoda.. But yeah your comment is laughable indeed
@@karerabbe7829 not buying it. He knows windu is a ruthless son of a bitch and will straight up execute him on the spot. It's a HUGE risk. He ain't stupid and that is a totally stupid play
9:40 - Another point: laying aside "power" for a moment, think about who we're talking about here, this is Palpatine, the guy who was a God-like manipulator. He thought of nearly EVERYTHING and was the main directing brain behind his own rise to Emperor and the fall of the Jedi. Is THAT guy really not going to be able to control a four-on-one duel? Come on. It doesn't matter what George said, the characters have to make sense within the universe that was created. Mace "winning" makes no sense. Palpatine allowed himself to be disarmed to tip Anakin over the edge. This is consistent with the characters and lore. A random comment by George doesn't trump the internal consistency of the universe itself. Otherwise anything goes. What's next, does Chewbacca whip out a lightsaber and suddenly declare himself grand master of the Jedi Order? Mace was by no means a joke to Palpatine, but the thumbnail shows Palpatine could have killed him at least once and likely could have one-shotted him at the beginning of the duel if so desired, you know, like he did with the other THREE in like FIVE seconds. By the way, this isn't even mentioning another option: that if Palpatine REALLY thought he was in genuine danger I'm 1000% sure he also had the contingency of escape or assistance (i.e. by the clones, even as just a distraction while he fled). Why was this not used? Firstly, arrogance perhaps (though he notably does try to escape Yoda later on), secondly, he didn't because that wasn't the point, he wanted to goad Anakin into betraying Mace and the Jedi. LOL
@@dungeonguy88 watch clone wars, he’s just an asshole. He is jealous or suspicious of anakin the entire time, he was an asshole to dooku if you watch tales of the Jedi and in the movie he just is an arrogant asshole.
I personally think that Mace Windu won the fight fair & square legitimately as the culmination of the Sith's grand plan hinged on Order 66 rather than Anakin's turn to Darth Vader which means that there was no need to turn Anakin to the dark side, that's just a nice bonus. Order 66 would have still went on fine without Anakin in the picture and Sidious would have been the one to rule the Empire as the final Dark Lord of the Sith rather than now having to deal with a potential rival. So yeah I am pretty sure that Sidious was fighting for his life and the Sith grand plan here with everything he's got and not gambling it all away for a bonus prize in the form of Darth Vader
Dude, if the author and creator states something about HIS story, then it is law not preference. Who cares about headcannon. This type of thing has become common place with fiction/ anime communities.
@@Trick-Framed I feel you, man. However, I find it more concerning than annoying. Grown men not being able to accept reality is a serious sign of mental instability as far as I'm concerned.
@@arc7xangel897 You are aware that “cannon” and “canon” are two separate words with different spellings and meanings, correct? Is a “headcannon” a cannon that one wears upon their head? Or do you mean head canon, a.k.a. a fan interpreting things as they see it? And do you REALLY think that Lucas is bothered by things such as this? It’s a sign of how beloved the series is by so many that people interpret things in their own way, or that they even want to debate or ruminate upon it. You complain about “grown men not accepting reality,” but this ISN’T reality. It’s a fantasy story that’s open to interpretation by the reader/viewer, and that’s the beauty of FICTION. Which is the opposite of REALITY.
@@phantom0456 Lucas has ALWAYS made so much of this ambiguous so fans COULD argue over it and play with the toys to reenact scenes. Now it's video games and fan fiction, but that was his point. To make it as loveable by an audience as it could have been. He succeeded.
Putting aside Lucas's own explanation for a moment.... There is no way that palpatine would throw the fight, in the hope that anakin would just "show up" at the most important moment, to succumb to palpatines final manipulation, complete his transition to the dark side, and palpatine would finish mace off. Palpatine methodically planned every detail of his take over for years and years and years. He may have known / believed that eventually anakin would turn, but he wouldn't risk everything he'd done, and was nearly completed, on the anakin factor. That would be foolish, risky, and not very sithy. There's no doubt that when anakin arrived, he absolutely utilized that situation to his favor, but as much of an unlikable jedi mace was, he had managed to find a way to defeat palpatine.
I'd like to believe Palpatine was always at least 5 steps ahead because he was on the verge of becoming the most powerful Sith Lord and taking down the jedi order. So he threw the fight in an attempt to manipulate anakin that the jedi are the bad guys because he's great at manipulating odds into his favor. That fight was a stalemate before anakin arrived.
"The sequence always started out with mace overpowering, Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers, but this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later." - George Lucas Mace wins the dual regardless. When Anakin shows up Palpatine feigns weakness to get help. Don't you guys run a Star Wars channel? How are you having this debate?
Overpowering someone isnt winning the fight. He overpowered him MOMENTARILY(causing him to lose his lightsaber).... were talking at the moment about how a fight scene plays out thematically. That doesnt mean that the fight was ever over, or that Sidious didnt still have many options. Also, George originally planned for Luke to be Anakin. Later he planned for Luke and Leia to actually get together... I mean, if you wana walk about what George originally planned or said... Overpowering someone(within a fight) is not the fight being finished, at all... Also, again.... were talking about how something is portrait! Not how something necessarily is! Hes literally talking about how things went when he was still toying with various ideas himself! And you guys ignore whats on screen, ignore common sense, and cling to a one off musing that contradicts entirely both what is shown, and the characters, not to mention themes of the whole show and story!
Mace won. Ani saved palps. When you gotta start talking to the stunt team and shit to justify what the screen doesn't show us, it tells us that it is a reach. What the MOVIE showed with no references for palps acting it all out, was that mace beat his ass. Lol
Not only that, the author and creator statedMace won because he was just that good. People who cant accept that and lean to headcannon have serious coping problems and mentals far as I'm concerned.
As I'm watching more of this video... they say in one breath that mace is the superior duelist, and that vapaaad equals the force differential between palps and mace in that fight (as palpatine is superior in the force). Then go on to list a bunch of cope to say mace still lost. I have small kids that say things like "I lost on purpose..." when they catch an L in a game. Lol never thought I'd hear that noise to justify something the screen already showed us. And isn't hatred just as supercharging as fear when it comes to the darkside? So if he hated Mace so much what's the difference?
Palpatine could've killed Windu immediately but Windu was about to match Sidious once his power increased through channeling Darkside energy from Palpatine to himself.
I think its a bit more than who beat the other. I think that Sidious was taking the battle a lot less seriously and in doing so he let his guard down and Windu got the drop on him turning the battle in his favor disarming the Sith Lord and nearly killing him due to Sidious' lasp in judgement. Once Anakin walks in bam Sidious is saved he was working toward this end either way but due to his hubris he was truly defeated and nearly lost his life. So in a way I think the two ends exists as one. Meaning Windu did truly beat Sidious, because he wasn't taking the fight as seriously, however it was always Sidious' intention to "lose" this fight.
100% people making no sense, clinging to some one off statement, ignoring whats shown on screen or makes any sense.... Why? Cause Mace/sam cool and old white man yucky and bad? Its really what Im starting to see and think the more comments I read and the more I get to see what kind of person says what >.>.... Sam/Mace is/was cool(fans definitely ruining him for me) I still see him as I did in the 03 series! and Mace was DOPE! Fanboys really making me dislike him tho.... Black man good, evil white guy pathetic, obviously... how silly of me to take the most evil mastermind ever as a serious threat, or ever assume hes got backup plans... nope... Hes just pathetic, and got lucky. If it wasnt for whiney emo boy, back man save everything, obviously... bigot
The concept that seems appropriate to me would be that Windu was custom made to counter the darkside lightsaber techniques of any sith. Palpatine was a phenomenal lightsaber duelist, so this is conceivably one of the toughest matchups for either duelist. I believe that if the fight has continued, Windu would have eventually forced Palpatine to resort to his command if the darkside powers to prevail, much in the way that he did against Yoda, or he would have prevailed on lightsaber skills alone. Knowing that the weakness of the Jedi and it's council members is an adherence to the rule based logic and morality, gives Palpatine the edge when Anakin enters the situation. To mimic the same method that Palpatine used to prevail against Yoda, he resorted to the darkside to achieve his goal. In this case it was his manipulation of both Anakin and Windu. Once Anakin's presence was made known, Palpatine recognized the conflict between Anakin and Windu. Windu, being so focused on the fight, was interrupted by his difficult relationship with Anakin. Anakin reminds him of the Jedi way stating Palpatine should stand trial. This conflict was present before the words were even spoken, and Palpatine had prior knowledge of this conflict and seemed confident enough to let his lightsaber go and focus his full attention to the manipulation of the conflict to his intended result. The result is that, though Windu could have achieved a true victory, by manipulating the existing conflicts, Palpatine chose, in the moment, to change his tactics from winning the duel to winning the war through the same manipulation tactics that he had employed throughout his life.
People are wildly misinterpreting a one off that was said casually about how the scene SEEMS and running with it, ignoring that EVEN IF they took it at face value(Mace 'overpowered' Sidious, causing him to lose his lightsaber) Sidious still had MANY options, and the fight was FAR from over for MANY reasons
This is great analysis. I think Mace won. He has extraordinary skill,movements,he uses Vapaad. He used Palpatine's darkness against him. Palpatine is like a black hole here. Huge power and darkness. I agree,Palpatine is 10 moves ahead of everyone. 10 years ahead of everyone. He had so much patience,will,talking,guiding.Controling everything. He's amazing. In that turn. Great analysis. May the Force be with you too Stupendous and Archivist always😊We appreciate you too😊Make more videos like this
I actually like the part where you play devils advocate. I personally believe after watching this that it's actually a bit of both. I think he was matching Sidious with his Vapadd as muchas possible but He couldnt overcome him. But Sidious was also at a stalemate, so when he felt Anakin approaching, he threw it in his favour. Manipulating the fact that they were pretty much getting nowhere in the duel to push Anakin over the edge.
For me, Palpatine lost the lightsaber duel, but Palpatine had stronger Force abilities to win even without his blades (yes, the second one was not used). No way he would have let Mace strike him.
19:40 "He had no fear when dueling Mace Windu, is a credit to the fact that Palpatine threw that fight." I don't believe that. Luke said it best. "You're overconfidence is your weakness."
I think that Mace did defeat Palpatine legitimately. He disarmed him, had him pinned down and beat him using vaapad and shatter point. Palpatine would not take the risk of having a lightsaber to his throat from one of the greatest Jedi ever. It’s too risky. He underestimated Mace. If Anakin does not intervene I believe Mace probably kills him after Palpatine puts up a lot of resistance with force lightning similar to what he did a few seconds earlier. If Anakin sides with Mace, it’s game over and he’s dead. I think you’re giving Palpatine too much credit. He can’t predict absolutely everything, although he’s a master manipulator, this would’ve been too risky a play for him and out of character in my opinion. The same with
I think Mace won. Palpatine attacks Windu with force lightning with Anakin there and I think would kill him if Mace wasn't using Vapad to re-direct back. I don't think that was a trick. But I also don't like the writing because if Mace does legitimately defeat Palpatine then Anakin's arc as chosen one (which I also don't like) is redundant. If Mace could defeat Palpatine then why was a chosen one required? A lot of people bag cosmetic parts of the prequels, my big problem is that there's definite flaws in the writing. Midiclorins and 'The Chosen One' narratives are terrible story choices that just hamstring and contradict much of the later stories.
What many people don't understand is that Vapaad do not protect against force power attacks but only draw upon the darkness to empower the wielder in combat. Lightning is not the only force power Palpatine had. He was advanced in all known force powers. He could have force push Mace away and force pull his lightsaber back. He could have force gripped Mace. Force crush him. Force drain him. There is no logic in the claim that Mace could ever beat Palpatine. Palpatine choosed to duel Mace instead of killing him with his force powers because he knew Anakin was on his way.
I think the most likely answer is that they were stalemated, but Palpatine was weakening, so if they had not been interrupted by Anakin, Mace would have eventually been the winner. When Palpatine senses Anakin approaching them, then he throws the fight and pretends to be weak to force Anakin to defend him.
Great video! Thank you for sharing your opinion on the subject. I have been wondering about a certain hypothetical that I would like to hear your take about. You have explained in the past that Mace Windu developed Vaapad with the approval of the Jedi Council & with the assistance of Sora Bulq. However what if Anoon Bondara had survived his encounter with Maul & Mace Windu had enlisted his help instead of Sora Bulq's?
Luring Skywalker to the darkside is less important than appearing more powerful as a Sith over a Jedi. Palpatine loss. He could not beat a prime mace in saber combat!!!
I don't think that Palpatine had to throw the fight to get the his desired outcome. When Mace Windu and the other Masters stepped foot in to the Chancellor's, Palpatine had already gotten what he wanted. The only choice he to make was how Mace would die. If Palpatine would lose in the duel, then he would plead to Anakin....Mace would die. If he pleaded to Anakin, and Anakin pleaded with Mace to think about the Jedi Code, then Mace shuts off his lightsaber. Thus, giving Palpatine the opportunity to Force Lightning Mace...Mace dies. Then, Palpatine can talk Anakin down, saying something on the lines of, "See the Jedi are trying to replace or kill me. They don't understand, but you do. They won't stop until I'm gone." Basically, the same garbage he used in the movie. In other words, Palpatine had a plan for if he won or lost, and he never went into the fight to lose. So, Mace won the duel, out of pure luck, but was outwitted by Palpatine. Mace should have met with the council, before going anywhere. That way the Jedi could have prepared, accordingly.
I haven't delved into the lore too much, but I believe in one of your videos (Stupendous Wave) there is a point where Luke points out the weakness and failure of Sith combat. How the initial rush of emotions and hatred can allow a Sith to overcome a Jedi but that if the fight drags on those same emotions would result in the Sith making mistakes and giving the edge to the Jedi. If this concept holds true, then Windu would most likely be the victor here. Vaapad would allow Windu to stay alive by feeding on Sidius's dark side energy along with his own. At which point all he needs to do is wait for a point where Sidius makes a mistake and then capatilize on it. On a side note, I would like to clarify that I do not believe Windu is stronger in the force than Sidius. But Vaapad's ability to feed on the opponents fury creates a scenario where the more power Sidius unleashes against Windu, the more power Windu has to attack Sidius with. Great video, love your work
Nick Gillard, the man who choreographed the duel recently said that as far as he was concerned, Sidious threw the duel. He even posted the original choreography for the duel on his channel 'Gillardstunts'.
This moment, is one of the hardest in Palpatine’s plan. Even if he threw the fight to expose Windu, and senssed Anakin’s fear, he could not be completely sure he would act on it or help him kill Windu. In a way, Anakin was both Windu’s salvation and destruction, his fear helped him defeat Palpatine, but also moved him to cut of his arm. Same as with Yoda’s fight, if he did planned for it, it was too big of a risk. I rather believe Palpatine is a very powerful genius, that was very close to being defeated if not for the desire of the force to balance itself.
I see a certain duality here hence my answer: both are true. On the one hand, Sidious wants to "lose" and assume the victim's role vs "the oppression" of the Jedi. On the other hand, Mace does overpower Palpatine lightsaber-wise. However, a lightsaber duel and the lightsaber skill put to the test here are one side to the coin. The other one is that the duel in general is *not* only melee. It is a contest of two opposing forces and here, per the outcome, the Sith emerge triumphant, with the scheming, the cunning, the ability to forsee the future and to impact others, specifically Anakin. That's my 2 cents XD
Another way to look at it was that Windu was a reverse hostage and it would not have been possible to have that happen if Anakin were easily deceived. That's why the 'mistake' happened so early in the fight. Mace won, yes, he did, but he was allowed to win. The duels are not so fair, I definitely think Sidious may have been unable to beat Mace after a certain point...but he also could have figured out a way to escape him. He didn't escape because he wanted to be caught so he could turn Anakin. It was risky, but he knew about the Tusken Raiders. Anakin should never have told him about that. It was what gave Sidious the information he needed to know Anakin would follow through on his heart's desire. As a reverse hostage, if Sidious wanted him dead, he would have killed him already is the reasoning. He needed him alive for Anakin's conversion. Only once Anakin finally betrayed Windu(instead of simply disobeying him) was Windu's usefulness to the Dark Lord spent to the max. And Sidious wasted no time in getting rid of Windu once that moment came. If Anakin didn't betray Windu, then Sidious would have had to like jump out of the window or something like that to stay alive. I don't know if he planned for that contingency or not...but I'd like to think that he didn't. I think that would be a much more interesting argument. By allowing Sidious to win the duel, he became the hostage that's about to die as seen by Anakin. But Anakin didn't realize that Sidious had foreseen Windu's death and spared him. Anakin thought Windu and the others wore Sidious down and beat him through attrition. But nothing could be further from the truth. The reason why it was believable at the time however was because Windu was fighting so aggressively, trying so hard to win. If Windu just chilled after Sidious failed to strike him down, then maybe, just maybe, Anakin wouldn't have fallen for the concept that Sidious was worn out by fighting 4 Jedi. Windu could have just let up and not taken the fight seriously. Windu was done with the Dark Lord of the Sith. But the Dark Lord wasn't done with him yet...and that's why Windu was a reverse hostage. All this to say that yes Windu won, because Sidious let him win, but Sidious also cheated and stole the win from Windu by involving Anakin. Of course we can also say that Windu was cheating too since he brought 3 buddies to fight Sidious, and he still would have lost if not for Sidious going easy on him. And when you point out something like that it makes people think your entire argument is wrong. Because they can't handle a little personality flaw of someone they like. I remember lots of Jedi died fighting robots in one of those movies... guess whose fault that was... my bet goes to Windu. Imagine how different the fighting vs Sidious could have been if instead of what they did, they recalled Yoda, had him 1v1 Sidious, and observed the fight. Then, if Yoda loses, they can presumably use the knowledge of their witnessing the fight to properly defeat Sidious. Not saying that this would have necessarily been possible to arrange, but it's not a stretch considering 4 Jedi showed up to arrest the man, what's the big deal in waiting for one more? Maybe let Anakin watch Yoda fight too, after he finally becomes a father I mean. Oh wait, they didn't know he was becoming a father... hehhehe...another example of Sidious possessing privileged information...they lost their boy a long time ago... it just wasn't formalized until that night when Sidious renamed him to Vader.
My pet theory, there is no question that at the end of the fight the emperor was manipulating Mace Windu along with Anakin. Mace Windu goes into the conflict intending to arrest the emperor, but at the critical moment he instead tries to kill him. The thing you have to remember is the emperor is also a seer, he is foreseeing a lot of these events and also sees himself being successful. We also know from the movies themselves that these visions are hard to interpret even though they're true and these future visions can help guide a Jedi's choices. So it's entirely possible the emperor understood he had to fight Mace Windu and that it would advance his scheme even if he didn't know the exact future sequence of events. In fact as a result the emperor may actually be overconfident because he just sees all these visions of himself winning and doesn't understand the possible negative ramifications. So it's quite possible that Mace out dueled the emperor, yet the fix was in from the very beginning.
Did Mace win the fight? I would say yes but Palpatine did throw the fight. Just look at when Palpatine had his lightsaber in his face before Anakin got there. With how Palpatine was at that moment, Palpatine would have killed Mace right then and there. There would not have been any mercy. Instead he was waiting for Anakin to show up so the duel continued.
I agree with the theory of Palpatine throwing the fight as he stops using force lightning for a moment acting as if he was out of energy to continue fighting
In my opinion, Windu was actually winning. As with Siddious’ later duel with Yoda, he went blade to blade to mock the Jedi, and at some point he decided he’d have to fall back on his other force abilities, because he was losing. He poked Anakin with the force, who came running. Which wasn’t instant, but Siddious knew he could hold out until Anakin arrived. Everybody holds Palpatine as having perfectly manipulated everyone. But stuff still happened that was out of his control. In the battle over Coruscant, what if some random event happened that derailed his plan? The ship he was in did get shot down, he managed to survive because Anakin could pilot the ship. But a stray star fighter might get shot down and crashed into the bridge, like what happened to the Executor in Ep 6. He did not expect for Vader to lose to Obi-Wan. He was bragging to Yoda that Vader would eclipse them both. Then Vader lost and had his power level capped at 80%. He certainly didn’t expect the rebels to blow up the first Death Star. Or the second one, for that matter. And he didn’t think Vader would turn on him like that. (He broadly expected Vader to turn on him, so he made the armor vulnerable to force lightning. In the process of carrying Siddious the five feet and tossing him down the shaft, Vader took fatal damage from him. Siddious couldn’t imagine Vader being willing to die to beat him.). He didn’t plan on Maul losing and nearly dying, either. Nor Maul’s return. He didn’t expect the incidence when the clone Fives went crazy, which lead Rex to be able to recognize what was happening, and give Ahsoka the chance to remove it, so the pair could escape. My point is that Siddious didn’t see any of that coming. He had contingency plans, though, so the final outcome of the Clone Wars wasnt really at risk. In summary: Mace Windu was legit winning his fight with Palpatine. But when Anakin was about to show up, he threw the match at that point, knowing that his cavalry was coming. Yoda was likely a better overall fighter, but Vapaad made Mace the perfect counter to Siddious.
Mace's skills and Palpatine's calculating nature are both factors in this fight since both are covered in the novelization as well as talked about by Lucas in his commentary. I think there's a chance Sidious held back at the very start (since he dazed all of the Jedi with his force howl and arguably could have blitzed Windu if he wanted to), but from that point on, there's really no clear evidence that Palpatine was holding back. The emphasis is all on Windu's skills in the moments leading up to him disarming Palpatine. However, not only do Palpatine's torrents of force lightning prove he was faking being weak on the ground, but Lucas himself also confirmed that he was pretending at that point. There are SO many layers to this fight and it would ultimately be too simple to credit only Windu or only Palpatine for how this fight played out from beginning to end.
Im just going to chock this up to the WILL OF THE LIVING FORCE. Think of it. The chosen one prophecy had to be fulfilled. Mace killing Palpatine, while it would temporarily destroy the sith, would only fester within Anakin and lead to his darkside turn a little later than normal. Thus, the cycle continues anew. Anakin's intervention and palpatines ability to read the room and adjust his plans on the fly were all points to serving the will of the living force. Their decisions were all influenced by the unseen machinations of a god that cared not for who wins or loses but seeks a balance above all else at the expense of all others. Or maybe I've been watching too much Kreia monologs....
I would've loved to see Anakin/Vader vs Mace. Those two had a tension buildup throughout three movies without any kind of real confrontation or resolution.
I like the idea that, at the beginning at least, Palpatine wasn't taking it seriously, but as the fight drew on he had to. The fact that Windu had to put everything he had into Vapaad just to keep the scales balanced says that Palpatine wasn't necessarily throwing the fight. Also, that Windu gained even a momentary edge because of Anakin's own fear points to the possibility that Palpatine wasn't throwing. He wasn't using everything he had, sure, but as we saw on screen that when he does use his Force powers, Windu almost kills him with that as well. So, I don't think Palpatine necessarily threw especially since there was no way to know that Anakin would even have gone there at all. Not with 100% certainty, anyway. So it would've been a huge gamble to throw the fight and it might not have paid off in the end.
It's funny how both of you dismiss that Siddious won the duel. Siddious continues to live as where Windu is never seen again. When two enter a duel and only one leaves the one who leaves alive WINS.
In my headcanon, Palpatine could have ended the fight at any time but he needed Anakin to make a mistake to finally tip him over to the dark side. But, Palpatine was only hoping to prolong the duel until Anakin stepped in, or in the film he only pretended to lose. But, Windu legitimately used Vaapad to beat Palpatine in a stacked duel, or in the films, Windu used Vaapad to direct Palpatine's best attack back at him. In my headcanon, either way, Mace Windu exceeded Palpatine's expectations and caused a new unforeseen factor in Palpatine's plans. But, Palpatine risked it all on Anakin anyways, feeling that he had corrupted and swayed Anakin enough to rely on him.
My take is that I don't think Vapaad by itself was enough to completely overpower Palpatine, but Mace had more stamina to keep up a lightsaber fight longer than Palpatine. If it went long enough, Palpatine may have run out of steam after an insane period of time if he did not get the chance to use The Force, but Palpatine sensed Anakin coming and faltered knowing that even if he lost he could turn the situation to his advantage. Likewise, as it said in the novel, this is further tipped by Windu drawing on Anakin's fear.
In my head cannon, Palpatine, Vader, Windu, Yoda, etc are all tools of the force which is nature...nature ALWAYS corrects itself... Palpatine became the embodiment of the dark side because he had to in order to manipulate Skywalker to become Vader to bring balance to the force...Luke ultimately became the light side energy that compelled Vader to turn back & fullfil his destiny...the older Jedi were gone, & now the old Sith were gone, which was the will of the force... Palpatine simply served his purpose just as Obi Wan did without the same "perceived" power... remember, the story is from the point of view of the Wills...
Mace Windu absolutely won. One his power conducts and outputs energy through Vapaad. Second Mace is a true and tried warrior and has many battles under his belt where Palpatine hardly ever duels. No way Palpatine threw this fight. Force wise yeah Palpatine is more powerful, lightsaber dueling.. no.
It’s my belief that Sidious was indeed controlling the situation and everything played out how he expected, although the one thing he didn’t expect was just how EFFECTIVE Mace Windu would be against him. I think that if the fight were to persist, with both opponents going all out, Mace Windu would have taken a complete victory
I 100% believe and agree with this for sure, although I also think it would be unrealistic or uncharacteristic(particularly at this point in time) for Sidious not to have multiple backup plans, including but not limited to.... just jumping out the window XD(hes on Coruscant... Not hard for him to survive or find protections, or call for backup... at which point, then what was Maces plan?)
@@tandava-089 to me it seemed as though Anakin’s arrival was the backup plan; the turn of fate Sidious needed to happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sidious happened to arrange Anakin’s arrival at that exact moment, although it could have just as likely been a coincidence of the Force. Either way, this was the moment the Jedi truly fell
@@nickmillar999 That was probably one of many/several 'backup plans'.... so calling it a 'turn of fate' might be an exaggeration or mischaracterization. Additionally, it would only make sense that Sidious would be able to sense Anakin. He literally just revealed himself to Anakin. He could have hid. He knew Anakin was conflicted. The idea that Sidious didnt know Anakin was coming, but got disarmed EXACTLY when Anakin arrived.... :I I do think Mace was stronger than Sidious had expected, and there might have even been a moment or two where he lost total control and was for a split second concerned or afraid(not because Mace could have killed him in that moment, but because he is so used to having total control, even being caught off guard at all is probably very unusual for him!) That said, I dont think Sidious was ever in a situation where, had Anakin not arrived for instance, that Mace could have killed him or that he could not have escaped
Counterpoint: For all the planning, deception, and scheming that Palpatine pulled off, he never could bring about the death of Obi-Wan not matter what kind of situation he put him through. That's what gives me pause about giving Palps too much credit. Or maybe we have underestimated Obi-Wan just like everyone else....
It was obviously a bait, that was made clear in the movie, if he dies he can't teach Anakin how to save Padme, if he got arrested by Windu he could just chain lightning when their lightsaber wasn't on and escape that way, and he owned the courts anyway so capture wasn't even a concern for him. It was timed to perfection that he was made to look like he was about to die and only Anakin could save him. Forcing Anakin to cross over the point of no return by killing a fellow Jedi. Clearly, Palpatine took a dive.
Palpatine was in control the whole time. He wanted Mace to Win and let him, he sensed Anakin was on his way, so he let Mace get the upper hand and put himself at swordpoint. Palpatine knew Mace would threaten his life after he was beaten and that Anakin would try to make Palpatine stand trial. The seeds of temptation for 'saving Padme with the Dark Side of the Force' were planted. If Palpatine had a reason to fight to the death, he wouldn't have bothered with lightsaber combat. He would have called upon the totality of the Dark-Side and would have killed Mace instantly.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the force scream (or if you touched on it, it was brief). Mace was the only Jedi in the room who resisted that, so apparently his Vapaad has more utilization than just lightsaber dueling.
I don’t have to even watch this video to tell you that: for all of Palpatines meticulous planning, he would have never made his own selfish intentions a toss up, Mace found a shatter point and Sidious made the best of it, as only he could. He had a loaded deck.
That's my thinking too, I think Palpatine did both in his malicious way: lost the duel to Windu, but knew how to use it in his favor, to seduce Anakin.
I would agree. Sidious wasn't just going to let anybody into his office. He would know if the jedi were coming for him before they even got there. My opinion is if he knew Anakin would not be there, he would have gotten away before the jedi even got to his office. And if the jedi still somehow got to him before he could get away, Sidious had control of the senate and the courts. It's my belief he would have surrendered peacefully and forced the jedi to beat him in the courts that HE controlled. Either way, the jedi look like the bad guys, Order 66 is put in motion, and events still carry out as planned.
That's a good point, I never saw it from that point of view.
@@dominiclamar6565He told Mace he was surprised by his early arrival, so it did seem that he was caught off-guard. Also no clone troopers or royal guards.
@@Leondrius Palpatine also said he had the power to save Padme. He was LYING. Palpatine knew with Yoda on Kashyyk and Obi-Wan on Utapau, there would be no one to keep Anakin from turning to the dark side. With Mace and Yoda split, he knew he could take on any Jedi. And if he got caught by surprise in a duel, as he did with Mace, Anakin would ALWAYS be his ace in the hole. It was a great plan, although not perfect
These lore guys have fallen in love with Palpatine to the point they’ve made him a sith god, even more powerful than Lucas envisioned.
lucas also said star wars is only for kids.
Read the lore and you'll see why Sidious was so powerful. He even had a higher midichlorian count than yoda.
@@corie_1032but aren't those books written by Star Wars nerds who fell in love with Palpatine so hard that they made him more powerful than Lucas envisioned?
@@ArvelDreth p much. i only consider episodes i to vi canon, the rest is ridiculous
@@JWStreeter I wouldn't say that all the rest is ridiculous, there are some parts of the Expanded Universe that are very cool. I really enjoyed playing KotOR, and I think Kyle Katarn's story is awesome.
1. Sidious never takes risks if he can possibly avoid it. He always stacks the deck if he can, and he only gets personally involved if the stakes are sufficiently high, if he's forced to act - Maul's actions on Mandalore, and the Jedi closing in on him, forced his hand. He manipulated circumstances to ensure that Anakin would be there, while Obi-Wan and Yoda were off-world, so as to appeal to him if needs be, but that's it. He also did everything he could to avoid fighting Yoda after becoming Emperor, because he knew there was no benefit.
2. Trying to control a lightsabre duel against one of the best there has ever been is the very definition of risky, if not outright stupid.
3. Sidious is an excellent duellist, but he is NOT one of the very, very best. As you guys cited, he was suddenly very worried when he heard about Dooku effectively stalemating Yoda on Geonosis. When facing Maul and Savage, he always tries to keep them apart, take them on one at a time, and makes doubly sure to stun Maul before turning on Savage alone and finishing him. In the following combat, Maul actually gets the upperhand through rage, superior size, and superior skill. Sidious stops looking amused, manages to break the blade lock, and as always, resorts to bullying in the Force. He tries to do the same thing against Windu, and it's utterly ineffective - they're stalemated, and with Force lightning blasting back at him, Windu has the upper hand.
He tries to do it yet again against Yoda, when it becomes clear that he simply cannot beat the Jedi Grandmaster with a blade, and he looks genuinely afraid a couple of times, first when he can't overpower Yoda, then when Yoda chucks one of the pods straight back at him, and then again when Yoda meets his Force Lightning with Tutaminis and cannot be overwhelmed, causing a massive energy backlash. Yoda falls, and Palpatine, frightened, is barely scrabbling at one of the pods. If he hadn't caught the edge, odds are good that he would have died an extremely undignified death. And he doesn't go down to finish Yoda, but escapes - uncharateristic from a total sadist, except entirely in-character for someone who KNOWS that there is no benefit to fighting Yoda at this point. Moreover, Yoda has proved his better in lightsabre combat, and his equal with the Force, whatever anyone else says. However, Sidious has already won, by destroying the Jedi. That's where his power really is.
You spoke nothing but 100% facts. I don't understand why other people can't see it. Mace won the duel but would have lost the force fight.
@@CO77INS Only after he managed to warm up though. Sidious reverse captured him. I definitely agree with the other guy, Sidious was not quite on the same level of saber mastery of Windu, but he didn't need to be to pull out a win apparently. He just chose not to take that win right away. And that win slipped away and belonged to Mace while Anakin allowed Sidious to steal it. All that battling until Anakin showed up, it was pretty much Sidious as an old man slowly losing a fight, getting worn out. But he already checkmated Mace and the movie also clearly shows that. But lightsaber combat isn't chess, so that didn't count as a win. And that's why we say he threw the match. I believe he did because he didn't follow through on the 'checkmate' vibe and just let Windu fight him where WIndu eventually got in the zone and it's okay if Sidious lost at that point, nobody's perfect.
Totally agree with everything you said. I wish Mace would get more love. I'm happy to hear about the new novel, The Glass Castle. Dude is literally top 5 most powerful Jedi of ALL TIME.
Wow you sure wrote a lot huh. The only thing I don’t understand is that for all of his supposed brilliance, the way he dies at the hands of Vader is stupidity at its finest. He knew exactly how Vader felt about him and his son. He still chose to leave himself vulnerable and expose himself to two sky walkers that want to defeat him. I don’t think a master Batman level planner would ever put himself in that position. And then he died lol. Truly a buzzkill way to end the movies. But hey y’all can start debating if palpatine let Vader kill him so he can come back and then get killed by Ray skywalker 😂😂😂
@@arielguzman9336 If you read through the Bane novels trilogy, there's a section where Bane is learning about how to perform force lightning, and he learns that the key is something along the lines of focusing really hard on dark emotions... in particular, hatred. So the Emperor was talking so much trash against Luke to build up that hatred. And all this attention to hatred likely didn't leave him vulnerable to an angry Vader which could have been what he expected, but it left him vulnerable to a concerned-parent Vader which he was incapable of detecting while performing the FL move.
Vapaad is the perfect answer for someone like Sidious. I’m a Sidious fan but Windu clearly won this and Sidious used manipulation to draw on Anakin’s fear and impulsivity which is ideal for a true Sith like him. Dooku’s is much weaker than Sidious but he uses the dark side in an extremely cool and controlled manner. Compared to anakin and Sidious. Anakin uses it like a hammer whereas Sidious used it like an axe. Dooku on the other hand uses it like a sword used in fencing. Wasting no energy and fighting with composure, focus, and deadly precision. Dooku Mixing his Jedi skills along with his fighting style I can imagine vapaad surprisingly failing against him but Sidious once reveling in the dark side would indulge too much underestimating Windu and making mistakes hence his him being disarmed
Indeed, you can only beat Palpatine by using his own power against him and that is what vaapad does.
@@pullo5518 Vapaad do not protect against force power attacks. Palpatine could have killed Mace with force crush if he wanted to.
It's not only that. Remember that raw power isn't everything. Anakin got beat by Obi-wan who isn't close to him in power. Mace, and Yoda just match up good with Palpatine because they are very skilled, and near his power level. The fights could go either way, but they have what it takes to take him. Mace won that fight, but could have just as easily lost it.
@@headstrongbachelor3152 "Palpatine could have killed Mace with force crush if he wanted to." When would someone use such a power? Oh, like in a life-threatening situation and clearly being outmatched by Windu? But he didn't. And not to mention, Vapaad protected him from force lightning, which is a force power attack. So, what we can conclude here is that Palpatine could not do such a thing against Windu because he was outmatched and overpowered. And even if you still want to think this way, remember: George Lucas said Windu won.
@@Cadd801 Mace could only direct the force lightening back to Sidious because lightsaber have the power to deflect force lightning in general. Vapaad do not protect against force power attacks such as force grip, force crush and force push. Sidious played weak to manipulate Anakin to betray the Jedi.
I honestly think that Mace Windu did defeat Palpatine
He lost the blade fight... As intended.. Mace would never win a battle including force powers as well, like Sidious against Yoda..( wich Yoda actually won as well, collecting a full force lightning from Sidious with his bare hand, but got unlucky and blown away the wrong way and fell down 10 meters, getting hurt and guards showing up..) So yeah mace beat him in a LIGHT SABER fight, would never win in a real fight where Sidious wen't all out like against Yoda.
@@karerabbe7829 Not really, since Windu’s use of Vaapad makes him stronger every time somebody uses the Dark Side against him
Palpatine took a gamble but a calculated one, to turn Anakin to the dark side. Revealing his identity was very risky and the potential for him to be killed was there but it worked out 8n the end.
He lost the battle but won the war.
@@TechmejJust in lightsaber combat... Also Sidious disn't even try, or use a single ability.. He lost yes, but on purpose, or failed hubris that he was able to beat him in a lightsaber fight alone.. He didn't dare do that with Yoda lol.. He even tried running away from the battle
Palpy was Mace's shriveled little bitch.
I prefer to think that Palps entered the fight thinking Mace was no match for him, but ended up losing to him and Anakin came in at the perfect time for Palps to take advantage of the situation and turn his loss into a victory. Prequel Palps was cunning enough to think on his feet like that.
I really like your explanation; I think it fits the characters really well. Mace was the worst match up for Palps, and it's definitely in character for Palps to look down on the Jedi as a whole after years upon years of successfully sneaking around right under their noses and manipulating them. He wouldn't respect Mace and in that hubris would quickly get taken off guard and possibly overwhelmed by Mace's vapad. But the quick thinking to turn Mace's superior position in the fight into his own downfall is also spot on Palps too. Such a good explanation for it!
Whether it'd come out the same way if Palps DID respect Mace enough to come into the fight on guard and treating Mace as a genuine threat is an interesting question. I'd lean more towards Palps winning that clash
And another thought on the reverse; I simply can't imagine Palps putting himself entirely in the hands of another. He does not trust and the thought of being truly defenseless and utterly in another's power would be poison to him. If he really did throw the fight then unless he has something up his sleeve that was never mentioned, he would be utterly in Mace and Anakin's hands. That just doesn't sound like something Palps would allow to happen.
That's what I think too but I also think that he didn't take the win early when he had the chance. Once Mace warmed up, then it was up to Anakin to save the old man's hide. Palpatine chose to lose so that he could win a new apprentice. He didn't like Dooku because Dooku wanted to have a brotherhood, but replacing him was a tricky matter, even though he knew what to do, he had to play his roles very carefully.
@@funkydinosaur Well, he is the chancellor, IN HIS OFFICE... On the capital planet....
If he didnt have 5-20 aces up his sleeve, Id be shocked.... Him taking a careless risk here and having to fallback makes less than zero sense narratively, and would be beyond completely out of character
@@tandava-089 He had his fingers outstretched and pointing at Windu when Anakin stepped in. He clearly was ready to blast more lightning or throw a push if the blade got too close. The boot in the face from Windu was legit and he won that part of the fight, but it hardly made Palpatine defenceless. Lightning didn't ruin people's looks before, so it means Palpatine always looked like that.
The idea that Sidious threw the fight assumes he KNEW Mace would not skewer him immediately, and he couldn't have known that. Also it has him certain that Anakin would arrive to be converted and he didn't KNOW that would happen.
Sidious could train against every combat style BUT Vaapad, so this would have been his first encounter with it and was stalemated with a finite amount of energy to put into the fight. It was inevitable that Mace would have beaten Sidious, and Anakin arriving just gave him a chance to turn the stalemate/ loss into a bid to convert Anakin with a non zero chance that Mace would end him the instant his defenses were down.
Well said!
Yeah, a lot of folks like to imagine that Palpatine was such a skilled manipulator that he could control every single factor and variable down to the second.
While we've seen that he is very...very skilled at manipulating people there are limits to what he can control. We've seen before that Palpatine had been stymied by political opposition that resisted his clandestine efforts to undermine, like Duchess Satine.
We've seen things go Palpatine's way due to what could only be considered lucky coincidences that he simply was given the opportunity to leap on. Like the faulty inhibitor chip. If a less shrewd and observant commander than Admiral Trench had been involved that situation could have gotten away from Palpatine. If Maul hadn't crossed paths with Death Watch, Palpatine still would have had Duchess Satine's political opposition holding back his efforts.
He's not an omniscient god. And quite often, Palpatine had to make things up on the fly to account for things he could not control.
He would have known that Anakin was coming. He also has Mace beat early but didn't finish him off. Old Palpy also very much relied on foresight and possibly foresaw the future and that Mace wouldn't immediately kill him. This can be seen from both sides though.
Not even Aboloth could see her own defeat by Luke and Darth Krat. How can Palpatine forsee what a Dark side God couldn't?
@@tootriv211 Simple, because she's power incarnate and has never had to use deception. Palpatine is at the top of his game here and had been around these Jedi for over a decade learning about them only to reveal himself at the 11th hour when the dark side had never been stronger.
It always seemed silly that Palpatine could beat Windu. Palpatine had been a great lightsaber student 30 years before. Windu has been training daily and on the front lines of a war for 3 years.
Facts the only thing that palpatine had going for him is the fact that mace was not the chosen one and palpatine knew it I believed that anakin was the outcome his n plagueis experiment. Mace was a better combat warrior and his shatter vision ability puts him above most Jedi even if mace did strike him down I don’t think palpatine would lose he would find a way back cuz only the chosen one can bring balance to the force
All I know, is Mace flew out the W-I-N-D-U
👁️👅👁️
lol
Lmao 😂
He must have been part Russian or had something on the Clintons.
you monster 😂😂
your to dangerous to be left alive
George said Mace won. So…Mace won.
Nope.
Just because he said it doesn’t mean that you have to accept it. You’re free to interpret the story however you want. You know, death of the author and all that.
With all that being said, Mace won.
@tsm784 A grown man advocating not to accept reality 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@arc7xangel897 It’s fiction though ….
@tsm784 There is still the reality of the events that took place in the storyline according to said storylines creator. It's not a matter of opinion what took place in another persons story. What the creator/ author says is a fact pertaining to their creation is the law concerning such. Something headcannon Fandom seems to have difficulty understanding.
Mace Windu wields the power of Samuel Jackson, which eclipses Palpatine's power.
🤣😂
Bible verses and a gun.
@@mlo009Don’t forget the Bad Motherf**ker wallet! 😂
@@Garyruizjr damn, can't forget that trump card!
You're actually not wrong lol
Canon and George said Mace won. If not for Anakin's intervention he would have killed Sidious.
Mic drop
Nah
Maybe arrest him but not kill him.
@@zachv367 He would have killed him. Yoda said so to Obi Wan, the council was in full agreement. He was to die, he was way too powerful and evil.
Of course he would have. Star Wars would have been changed to Star Peace just like that. 🤌🏽
Palpatine legitimately lost. These retcons/new lore are dumb.
Off topic but if Mace Windu was the one to train Anakin things would have played out different. Obi Wan was new to being a master and they let his first padawon be a child with the potential to become the most powerful man in history knowing the trauma he came in with. Anakin and Windu would have butt heads A LOT at first but through missions and training overtime Windu would realize they have similarities. Windu’s unique talent for having enough inner strength to resist the dark side would have eventually rubbed off on anakin through much time, trial, and error and on the other side anakin would not only blossom into a powerful Jedi but one capable of resisting the dark side and channeling it to fight for good. Windu’s hesitation to teach Anakin Vapaad due to its dangers would bruise Anakin’s ego and motivate Anakin to overcome his demons to master that form and through obtaining self mastery he becomes an unshakable force in body and mind. Anakin’s training under Windu would be a journey complete self mastery with a careful eye of Anakin’s inner darkness Obi Wan missed all this Windu wouldn’t. Instead of being fed constant praise for how talented he is he will be taught absolute self control and humility making him a Jedi he truly overcame his fear. Either which way he was destined to destroy palpatine. So if he had taken this path it would have been the path everyone initially presumed to take. Facing the Sith as a Jedi and not as one of them
I agree, the problem is he always came off as Jealous of Anakin because he was a prodigy before Anakin.
@@mrjemason Yea I agree
Yeah, I thought 'why not Yoda?' but Windu might have worked out okay as well. Obi-Wan was too young to train someone else, they should have sent him on a few missions as a knight first at least before making him anyone's master. Windu probably didn't want to train Anakin, but he probably could have been convinced to do it if some effort was made for it. In the end I think they put too much attention on Obi-Wan agreeing to train the boy. Qui-Gon didn't literally mean he needed the boy trained by Obi-Wan specifically. He just wanted the boy to learn to use the Force. Obviously he didn't want Maul teaching him, so Obi-Wan wasn't the worst possible choice... but I don't think Qui-Gon thought it was ideal. Obviously Qui-Gon wanted to "train the boy". Another interesting choice for teacher may have been Dooku. I don't know if that's possible since I think that was around the time when Dooku was leaving the Jedi Order. On the other hand, maybe him leaving the order and taking Anakin with him wherever he went would have been good for Anakin. He was the one that was working with Qui-Gon, training him... so he's kind of like a grandpa for Anakin rather than the brother that Obi-Wan was...and Grandpas and Grandmas often make for great parents surprisingly. All that extra experience does wonders.
I mean i go with what George says. It is his story and his characters.
Given that George has changed his mind more than once - contrast his early opinions of the Dark Side as nothing more than a perversion to the Mortis Trilogy, the last major story arc that he had a major hand in, where Filoni et al were listening to him very carefully (which is why the storyboarded scene of Bane and Revan didn't appear), where the Son and the Dark Side are considered a natural part of the Force.
But yes, I agree here.
nahhh palpatine got arrogant and slipped, windu took advantage using vapaad + shatter point… anakin comes in and stops windu etc. this being the case is also just much more poetic, the dark side being defeated, the only thing anakin has to do is listen to windu. it’s so ironic
I think it’s both palp slipped but I don’t think he was as weak as he was portrayed to anakin that was to make him believe he needed help as we saw after mace hands sliced off sidious fully comes out even says unlimited power thus showing us that the dark side clouds our vision and and can easily deceive their opponents, especially manipulation being palpatines strong force abilities
@@pkizzlebeatsWhat does him saying "unlimited power" have to do with whether he was more powerful or threw the duel or anything like that?
Here's the definitive canon answer:
"He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade.
Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated."
2022 Disney/Lucasfilm/fanhome encyclopedia collection
"Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber."
"His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly."
Disney/lucasfilm/ Fanhome Encyclopedia collection
2022
"During the confrontation with Mace Windu, the office window was smashed. Soon after, Palpatines weapon fell onto the streets of Coruscant, but it was all part of the Sith's plan."
2022 disney/lucasfilm/ fanhome encyclopedia collection
This film was made by Kucas. Therefore everything BEFORE the purchase of Star Wars is Lucas lore. He made it. It's his lore.
Beyond excited to give this a listen later! I always love when the Archivist shows up for these long form videos, I really appreciate the perspectives he brings to the table, and I enjoy listening to you both bounce ideas off each other 👏
I personally believe it's a mix of both. Did Mace manage to overpower Sidious through his blade mastery and Vaapad? Yes, and this matches what Lucas said on the matter.
However... Does this mean Sidious was beaten? I don't think so. Against Yoda eventually he also lost his lightsaber, but the fight was far from over. Sidious wields tremendous force power and that's what he believes in: his use of a lightsaber is mainly to mock and match the jedi. This is were he manipulates Anakin, pretending to be weak after being disarmed... When he is not. He still had fight left in him.
100%
Yes!
The only way to argue for Palpatine is assumptions/head canon… Mace literally has multiple staff and creators saying he won soooo he won until someone officially retcons it🤷🏾♂️
"He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade.
Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated."
2022 Disney/Lucasfilm/fanhome encyclopedia collection
"Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber."
"His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly."
Disney/lucasfilm/ Fanhome Encyclopedia collection
2022
"During the confrontation with Mace Windu, the office window was smashed. Soon after, Palpatines weapon fell onto the streets of Coruscant, but it was all part of the Sith's plan."
2022 disney/lucasfilm/ fanhome encyclopedia collection
Remember people, Mace Windu was leader of the Order and the best duelist WITHOUT using Vaapad. There were no darksiders and Sith had been unheard of for thousands of years. The man literally had the Sith Kryptonite Lightsaber form, barely used it, and was STILL the strongest along with Yoda. You honestly think Palpy stood a chance?? That's like Jiren from Dragonball Super being able to go Super Saiyan but he never uses it cuz he doesn't have to. That's basically who Mace Windu is. EVERYONE on his home planet is Force-sensitive. Dude was a GOAT even before the Phantom Menace.
All opinions have to be disregarded concerning this battle. George Lucas has already stated that Windu defeated Palpatine fair and square.
The same George Lucas who said sidious could've killed mace at anytime with the force you really wanna go here let's do it
to be fair, he changes his mind all the fucking time
@@GeekyFloyd Not as much as Dave Filoni and Disney.
@@BeHoly10 Never heard Lucas say anything bout that.
No George Lucas have never said that. He allowed people to have their own interpretation about the duel.
When is a win not a win.
When grown ass men with mentals can't cope with reality.
if you don't win
Thank to you both for putting these very fun and interesting videos together.we appreciate it very much.
Yes he did. George Lucas said he did and thats what im sticking with! Not the stunt coordinator or any other muppet who says so.
He lost the blade fight... As intended.. Mace would never win a battle including force powers as well, like Sidious against Yoda..( wich Yoda actually won as well, collecting a full force lightning from Sidious with his bare hand, but got unlucky and blown away the wrong way and fell down 10 meters, getting hurt and guards showing up..) So yeah mace beat him in a LIGHT SABER fight, would never win in a real fight where Sidious wen't all out like against Yoda..
Thank you! Why isn't this known more among Star Wars fans?
Facts
100% facts!
Thanks both for your efforts.
I also think that Palpatine purposefully lets Windu reflect his lightning, almost as a way of "payment" he is willing to permanently disfigure himself and endure immense pain in order to seem even more of a victim in Anakin's eyes.
No, he was trying to "destroy" Mace (according to Lucas) & show Anakin the superiority of the dark side
Nope. Here is the problem. Mace beat him. 3 Jedi masters he killed were at his feet. Everyone forgets that. He couldn’t and wouldn’t play victim to anakin when he slaughtered 3 Jedi masters. Their dead bodies are there. Palpatine is a mid Sith Lord and the whole structure of the Jedi and republic failing is their own hubris, not some dipshit from Naboo
There’s no way he ‘let’ him deflect the lightning.
@@ashashby678 while i’ve accepted that mace won, palpatine definitely could and would play victim even after slaughtering 3 jedi masters. he was a master manipulator and oversaw all the events that sowed discontent, instability, and increasing corruption within the republic. he took advantage of the jedi’s hubris (which was only directed at the possibility of the sith or a shadowy figure/group exisiting without their knowledge). if it wasn’t for palps, republic could have stood for another 1000 years. he is definitely not a “mid” sith lord
Love the long form content brotha keep it up!
*Everything proceeded as I had foreseen.*
Unlimited POWAH!!!
~thug life song meme as the weed cigarette floats to badass shades emperor palps mouth~
Loving these long form discussions! Keep it up, gents! Love to hear y’all talk and compare the different eras of Sith. How the old masters hold up against rule of two vs newer era of Kryat.
Shatterpoint along with Vapaad is basically the Sith silver bullet.
Sith are self-interested Palpatine would have NEVER willingly thrown himself on an alter to attempt to lure Anakin, that would entail selflessness, which is inconceivable.
- Sith are self-interested
Quite the contrary. Sith are the most selfless of all. Entire sith philosophy, their whole reason to exist was to *create Sith'ari* . They kill, they suffer and die at the hands of each other as well as at the hands of their enemies for this goal and this goal alone. They take acolytes to perpetuate this cycle of suffering and self-improvement for this goal alone. Such is the selflessness and ultimately - self-sacrifice of the Sith.
I would argue that Palpatine or rather Sidious still saw the value in having a partner, even though he was going to try his best to make sure that partnership was unequal. Something strong with the Force to help you deal with matters, someone that was loyal to you... that's what Anakin represented to him. He was familiar with Anakin since he knew that his master's effort combined with his own helped bring Anakin to life. He had every reason to think that he could manipulate Anakin.
It was hidden in the speech in the movie. 'He could influence the midichlorians to create life' was a line spoken directly to Anakin and Anakin not knowing what it meant makes it clear that there wasn't too much thought given to it from Anakin's part. It makes me wonder what Anakin knew about his birth. He probably only knew what was told to Qui-Gon all those years ago. If he had gone to help his mother sooner, maybe she would have been able to give him some useful information that could have been a clue that the Dark Side of the force was watching him or something like that. And maybe she would have had nothing useful to say that she hadn't already said. But we'll never know now because she was tortured and dried out.
I actually wonder if Sidious is the reason why his mother was captured in the first place. Why did the sand people do that? I mean, she was captured for a month according to the man that married her...why continue giving her water if it's so precious? I tried to get some more information on their culture but there's not much there. Even though there are apparently stories of a 'Tusken Raider Jedi' and there's also Tahiri from The New Jedi Order as well as a book series before that one(which I don't remember the name of just now) who was also from that culture but other than the comment about Boba Fett being accepted by raiders there's no clue for why they were keeping her alive. Maybe they were trying to get her to join their culture and she wasn't fitting in. But I find that difficult to believe unless they got her gender wrong or maybe she just didn't want to betray her new husband because of their wedding vows or something? Dark theories, but what else do we have? Maybe it was as simple as them wanting her as a wife and she wouldn't give herself up sexually because dying was better than cheating on her husband who apparently didn't have a strong enough army to take her back...? And if that's the case, then I guess Sidious had nothing to do with it.
@@iNsOmNiAcAnDrEw Sidious wanted a shield strong enough to last through galactic oppression PERIOD, nothing more.
Had Anakin not turned in that precise moment Sidious would have likely attempted to electrocute him to death along with Mace Windu while Anakin was deliberating about what to do with his guard down just to not have to worry about getting offed later by Anakin himself.
Ultimately Sidious would have continued to gather lesser shields and he may have even collected Maul back. Anakin wasn’t so important that he would have practiced something deemed absolutely deplorable to a Sith such as selflessness.
As for the Tuskans, a people made strangers in their own land by off-worlders…they were made callous by desert life. I can’t see them seeking permission for something they could take by force, particularly from an off-worlder. That had become the way for the most Tuskan tribes.
You have to keep in mind why Shmi Skywalker would have had any value to Tuskans in the first place… shift focus to the fact that Cliegg Lars was a MOISTURE FARMER IN THE DESERT. As a Tuskan you could continue subsistence on what was likely nasty little scorpion turds in the desert or you could also hold a moisture farmer’s wife hostage, negotiate for real water and potentially bleed his business dry.
While it was never mentioned that they negotiated for water, it’s more than reasonable to assume that they did as bartering was one of their chief survival skills.
Shmi likely attempted to escape on her own as anyone else would have and sustained beatings for that. Shmi was likely also the last in line to receive food or water and as a result, being human, over time eventually succumbed to the brutality of desert.
@@Imhotep397 I don't think losing on purpose is a qualifier for being selfless. Being selfless means doing something for someone that's not yourself. It means forsaking yourself. By throwing the fight, he played Windu for a fool, and that wasn't selfless behavior, if anything it was arguably dependent behavior(because he's depending on Anakin to follow through on what he's trying to manipulate Anakin to do, which in this case is defend him from the 4 Jedi masters that Anakin knew went to go see him) which would be rare among people like Palpatine, but not completely unheard of or even abnormal in general.
As for Shmi, I still like my new theory better than your alternative, but thanks for offering the perspective/scenario explanation.
@@iNsOmNiAcAnDrEw Losing on purpose with the potential to die at the hands of one of the deadliest saber duelists in the history of the Jedi order (by canon) is kind of the definition of selflessness. Had Windu not hesitated the result would have been the same as the Jango Fett result. The only recourse Sidious would have had in that case would have been after his death Anakin picking up the Sith legacy to try to save his wife, again this would have been an unacceptable choice to a Sith Master.
With Shatterpoint, the only path to failure is hesitation on the part of the wielder, there’s no wriggling out of the result. Sidious would likely have known that. When he was out of options and about to bite the dust he used sympathy manipulation as a last second effort to save his own skin.
This was a very well thought out discussion. Thank you both for this. Revenge of the Sith is my favorite Star Wars movie.
George Lucas said Windu legit defeated Palpatine. End of discussion.
A man of reason and culture I see.
GL didn't confirm anything. Watch it again.
Does this TH-camr end up thinking windu didn't win? If so he can't not be tooken seriously, What Lucas says is LAW.
@@tortureddesert3453 Sane and mature people get this.
no he didn't! end of discussion.
Oh man, this was fantastic! I have gone back and forth on this debate as well. I am really enjoying these debates.
If not for Anakin being brainwashed, Mace Windu would have killled Palpatine and won
No, no, NOOOO! UNLIMITED POWAH!!!
Stupendous Team, I appreciate all the work you do ! The longer form discussions are definitely my favorite of all your great content ! Hope to see more coming!
George said he did so that’s what it is.
I think one thing many people forget is that although Palpatine is powerful and a master manipulator, he is also VERY lucky. He got lucky that he was able to knock Yoda’s lightsaber away and that Yoda was thrown further away by the lightning repulsion blast because he was so small (leading to Yoda falling all the way down and sealing Palpy’s victory as reinforcements arrived), got lucky Anakin arrived when he did to dismember Mace or Mace would have killed him by way of Vaapad, got lucky little Annie survived being chopped up and burnt to a crispy by Obi-Wan, but his hatred kept him a live when he should’ve died. Don’t get me wrong, he is a master manipulator who worked for decades to destroy the jedi, and I consider him to be the greatest villain in cinematic history… but it was also the will of the force that everything went his way because bro got lucky over and over. I think in the novel it even states that when Yoda is dueling Sidious that he felt the force shifting and that it favored the dark side that day
I don't even understand where the debate is. Windup clearly and obviously won fair and square. Throwing a fight against somebody like windu is so far beyond stupid it's laughable
He lost the blade fight... As intended.. Mace would never win a battle including force powers as well, like Sidious against Yoda..( wich Yoda actually won as well, collecting a full force lightning from Sidious with his bare hand, but got unlucky and blown away the wrong way and fell down 10 meters, getting hurt and guards showing up..) So yeah mace beat him in a LIGHT SABER fight, would never win in a real fight where Sidious wen't all out like against Yoda.. But yeah your comment is laughable indeed
@@karerabbe7829 not buying it. He knows windu is a ruthless son of a bitch and will straight up execute him on the spot. It's a HUGE risk. He ain't stupid and that is a totally stupid play
9:40 - Another point: laying aside "power" for a moment, think about who we're talking about here, this is Palpatine, the guy who was a God-like manipulator. He thought of nearly EVERYTHING and was the main directing brain behind his own rise to Emperor and the fall of the Jedi. Is THAT guy really not going to be able to control a four-on-one duel? Come on. It doesn't matter what George said, the characters have to make sense within the universe that was created.
Mace "winning" makes no sense. Palpatine allowed himself to be disarmed to tip Anakin over the edge. This is consistent with the characters and lore. A random comment by George doesn't trump the internal consistency of the universe itself. Otherwise anything goes. What's next, does Chewbacca whip out a lightsaber and suddenly declare himself grand master of the Jedi Order?
Mace was by no means a joke to Palpatine, but the thumbnail shows Palpatine could have killed him at least once and likely could have one-shotted him at the beginning of the duel if so desired, you know, like he did with the other THREE in like FIVE seconds.
By the way, this isn't even mentioning another option: that if Palpatine REALLY thought he was in genuine danger I'm 1000% sure he also had the contingency of escape or assistance (i.e. by the clones, even as just a distraction while he fled). Why was this not used? Firstly, arrogance perhaps (though he notably does try to escape Yoda later on), secondly, he didn't because that wasn't the point, he wanted to goad Anakin into betraying Mace and the Jedi. LOL
“You’re arrogance blinds you Master Yoda” yoda was definitely arrogant not as bad as windu but he surely was.
And Palpatine was far more arrogant than either of them.
I don't think I've ever understood this claim that Mace Windu was arrogant.
Where is this coming form exactly?
@@dungeonguy88 watch clone wars, he’s just an asshole. He is jealous or suspicious of anakin the entire time, he was an asshole to dooku if you watch tales of the Jedi and in the movie he just is an arrogant asshole.
I personally think that Mace Windu won the fight fair & square legitimately as the culmination of the Sith's grand plan hinged on Order 66 rather than Anakin's turn to Darth Vader which means that there was no need to turn Anakin to the dark side, that's just a nice bonus.
Order 66 would have still went on fine without Anakin in the picture and Sidious would have been the one to rule the Empire as the final Dark Lord of the Sith rather than now having to deal with a potential rival. So yeah I am pretty sure that Sidious was fighting for his life and the Sith grand plan here with everything he's got and not gambling it all away for a bonus prize in the form of Darth Vader
Dude, if the author and creator states something about HIS story, then it is law not preference. Who cares about headcannon. This type of thing has become common place with fiction/ anime communities.
I find it mildly annoying. It's as if there is an opinion to be had when there isn't.
@@Trick-Framed I feel you, man. However, I find it more concerning than annoying. Grown men not being able to accept reality is a serious sign of mental instability as far as I'm concerned.
@@arc7xangel897 You are aware that “cannon” and “canon” are two separate words with different spellings and meanings, correct? Is a “headcannon” a cannon that one wears upon their head? Or do you mean head canon, a.k.a. a fan interpreting things as they see it? And do you REALLY think that Lucas is bothered by things such as this? It’s a sign of how beloved the series is by so many that people interpret things in their own way, or that they even want to debate or ruminate upon it. You complain about “grown men not accepting reality,” but this ISN’T reality. It’s a fantasy story that’s open to interpretation by the reader/viewer, and that’s the beauty of FICTION. Which is the opposite of REALITY.
@@phantom0456 Seems like I strick a nerve. Only a hit dog hollers my boy🤣🤣
@@phantom0456 Lucas has ALWAYS made so much of this ambiguous so fans COULD argue over it and play with the toys to reenact scenes. Now it's video games and fan fiction, but that was his point. To make it as loveable by an audience as it could have been. He succeeded.
Putting aside Lucas's own explanation for a moment....
There is no way that palpatine would throw the fight, in the hope that anakin would just "show up" at the most important moment, to succumb to palpatines final manipulation, complete his transition to the dark side, and palpatine would finish mace off.
Palpatine methodically planned every detail of his take over for years and years and years. He may have known / believed that eventually anakin would turn, but he wouldn't risk everything he'd done, and was nearly completed, on the anakin factor. That would be foolish, risky, and not very sithy.
There's no doubt that when anakin arrived, he absolutely utilized that situation to his favor, but as much of an unlikable jedi mace was, he had managed to find a way to defeat palpatine.
I can't speak on what the books depict but in the movie he clearly wins that fight and if you didn't people were doing an awful job acting
Mace perfectly outdueled, finessed,and defeated Palpatine. Had Anakin not appeared, Palpatine would be dead.
Short Answer: Yes
I'd like to believe Palpatine was always at least 5 steps ahead because he was on the verge of becoming the most powerful Sith Lord and taking down the jedi order. So he threw the fight in an attempt to manipulate anakin that the jedi are the bad guys because he's great at manipulating odds into his favor. That fight was a stalemate before anakin arrived.
"The sequence always started out with mace overpowering, Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers, but this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later." - George Lucas
Mace wins the dual regardless. When Anakin shows up Palpatine feigns weakness to get help.
Don't you guys run a Star Wars channel? How are you having this debate?
Overpowering someone isnt winning the fight. He overpowered him MOMENTARILY(causing him to lose his lightsaber).... were talking at the moment about how a fight scene plays out thematically. That doesnt mean that the fight was ever over, or that Sidious didnt still have many options.
Also, George originally planned for Luke to be Anakin. Later he planned for Luke and Leia to actually get together... I mean, if you wana walk about what George originally planned or said...
Overpowering someone(within a fight) is not the fight being finished, at all... Also, again.... were talking about how something is portrait! Not how something necessarily is! Hes literally talking about how things went when he was still toying with various ideas himself!
And you guys ignore whats on screen, ignore common sense, and cling to a one off musing that contradicts entirely both what is shown, and the characters, not to mention themes of the whole show and story!
@@tandava-089 what's on screen is Mace winning and then you speculate why.
@@theyetti90 Thats not whats shown though, but you can see it that way if you choose to. Not even remotely whats actually portrait though
@@tandava-089 it is🙃
@@theyetti90 Cope? XD
Feels like you’re reading my mind with the videos lately
Mace won. Ani saved palps. When you gotta start talking to the stunt team and shit to justify what the screen doesn't show us, it tells us that it is a reach. What the MOVIE showed with no references for palps acting it all out, was that mace beat his ass. Lol
Not only that, the author and creator statedMace won because he was just that good. People who cant accept that and lean to headcannon have serious coping problems and mentals far as I'm concerned.
As I'm watching more of this video... they say in one breath that mace is the superior duelist, and that vapaaad equals the force differential between palps and mace in that fight (as palpatine is superior in the force). Then go on to list a bunch of cope to say mace still lost. I have small kids that say things like "I lost on purpose..." when they catch an L in a game. Lol never thought I'd hear that noise to justify something the screen already showed us. And isn't hatred just as supercharging as fear when it comes to the darkside? So if he hated Mace so much what's the difference?
@@davynian Bro I pray for grown ass men who can't just accept reality. Fanboying is a disease it really is.
Looking at the fight scene recently, I still think Windu won the duel but his hubris was, that he failed to bring Anakin along for the arrest.
it was probably the right call but he brought the wrong Jedi with him to try to arrest Sideous
Palpatine could've killed Windu immediately but Windu was about to match Sidious once his power increased through channeling Darkside energy from Palpatine to himself.
Vapaad
@@dinkyb2000 yea!
I think its a bit more than who beat the other. I think that Sidious was taking the battle a lot less seriously and in doing so he let his guard down and Windu got the drop on him turning the battle in his favor disarming the Sith Lord and nearly killing him due to Sidious' lasp in judgement. Once Anakin walks in bam Sidious is saved he was working toward this end either way but due to his hubris he was truly defeated and nearly lost his life. So in a way I think the two ends exists as one. Meaning Windu did truly beat Sidious, because he wasn't taking the fight as seriously, however it was always Sidious' intention to "lose" this fight.
Palps didn't lose until anakin showed up he clearly played both of them.
100% people making no sense, clinging to some one off statement, ignoring whats shown on screen or makes any sense.... Why? Cause Mace/sam cool and old white man yucky and bad?
Its really what Im starting to see and think the more comments I read and the more I get to see what kind of person says what >.>....
Sam/Mace is/was cool(fans definitely ruining him for me)
I still see him as I did in the 03 series! and Mace was DOPE!
Fanboys really making me dislike him tho....
Black man good, evil white guy pathetic, obviously... how silly of me to take the most evil mastermind ever as a serious threat, or ever assume hes got backup plans... nope... Hes just pathetic, and got lucky. If it wasnt for whiney emo boy, back man save everything, obviously... bigot
The concept that seems appropriate to me would be that Windu was custom made to counter the darkside lightsaber techniques of any sith. Palpatine was a phenomenal lightsaber duelist, so this is conceivably one of the toughest matchups for either duelist. I believe that if the fight has continued, Windu would have eventually forced Palpatine to resort to his command if the darkside powers to prevail, much in the way that he did against Yoda, or he would have prevailed on lightsaber skills alone. Knowing that the weakness of the Jedi and it's council members is an adherence to the rule based logic and morality, gives Palpatine the edge when Anakin enters the situation. To mimic the same method that Palpatine used to prevail against Yoda, he resorted to the darkside to achieve his goal. In this case it was his manipulation of both Anakin and Windu. Once Anakin's presence was made known, Palpatine recognized the conflict between Anakin and Windu. Windu, being so focused on the fight, was interrupted by his difficult relationship with Anakin. Anakin reminds him of the Jedi way stating Palpatine should stand trial. This conflict was present before the words were even spoken, and Palpatine had prior knowledge of this conflict and seemed confident enough to let his lightsaber go and focus his full attention to the manipulation of the conflict to his intended result. The result is that, though Windu could have achieved a true victory, by manipulating the existing conflicts, Palpatine chose, in the moment, to change his tactics from winning the duel to winning the war through the same manipulation tactics that he had employed throughout his life.
I go with whatever Lucas decided since he’s the creator
People are wildly misinterpreting a one off that was said casually about how the scene SEEMS and running with it, ignoring that EVEN IF they took it at face value(Mace 'overpowered' Sidious, causing him to lose his lightsaber) Sidious still had MANY options, and the fight was FAR from over for MANY reasons
You guys together is always a pleasure to hear concerning. Great stuff.☺️😌🙏😌☺️
He lost on purpose, thats clear. It was the best way to persuade anakin.
Love these deeps dives! Great knowledge and insights
This is great analysis. I think Mace won. He has extraordinary skill,movements,he uses Vapaad. He used Palpatine's darkness against him. Palpatine is like a black hole here. Huge power and darkness. I agree,Palpatine is 10 moves ahead of everyone. 10 years ahead of everyone. He had so much patience,will,talking,guiding.Controling everything. He's amazing. In that turn. Great analysis. May the Force be with you too Stupendous and Archivist always😊We appreciate you too😊Make more videos like this
I actually like the part where you play devils advocate. I personally believe after watching this that it's actually a bit of both. I think he was matching Sidious with his Vapadd as muchas possible but He couldnt overcome him. But Sidious was also at a stalemate, so when he felt Anakin approaching, he threw it in his favour. Manipulating the fact that they were pretty much getting nowhere in the duel to push Anakin over the edge.
Exactly
The person that choreographs the fights Said in an interview pulpitine One against Mace windo
For me, Palpatine lost the lightsaber duel, but Palpatine had stronger Force abilities to win even without his blades (yes, the second one was not used). No way he would have let Mace strike him.
19:40 "He had no fear when dueling Mace Windu, is a credit to the fact that Palpatine threw that fight."
I don't believe that. Luke said it best.
"You're overconfidence is your weakness."
I think that Mace did defeat Palpatine legitimately.
He disarmed him, had him pinned down and beat him using vaapad and shatter point.
Palpatine would not take the risk of having a lightsaber to his throat from one of the greatest Jedi ever. It’s too risky. He underestimated Mace.
If Anakin does not intervene I believe Mace probably kills him after Palpatine puts up a lot of resistance with force lightning similar to what he did a few seconds earlier. If Anakin sides with Mace, it’s game over and he’s dead.
I think you’re giving Palpatine too much credit. He can’t predict absolutely everything, although he’s a master manipulator, this would’ve been too risky a play for him and out of character in my opinion. The same with
I think Mace won. Palpatine attacks Windu with force lightning with Anakin there and I think would kill him if Mace wasn't using Vapad to re-direct back. I don't think that was a trick. But I also don't like the writing because if Mace does legitimately defeat Palpatine then Anakin's arc as chosen one (which I also don't like) is redundant. If Mace could defeat Palpatine then why was a chosen one required? A lot of people bag cosmetic parts of the prequels, my big problem is that there's definite flaws in the writing. Midiclorins and 'The Chosen One' narratives are terrible story choices that just hamstring and contradict much of the later stories.
What many people don't understand is that Vapaad do not protect against force power attacks but only draw upon the darkness to empower the wielder in combat. Lightning is not the only force power Palpatine had. He was advanced in all known force powers. He could have force push Mace away and force pull his lightsaber back. He could have force gripped Mace. Force crush him. Force drain him. There is no logic in the claim that Mace could ever beat Palpatine. Palpatine choosed to duel Mace instead of killing him with his force powers because he knew Anakin was on his way.
Palpatine is to arrogant to take a dive. No Sith would do that!!!! It shows weakness to his possible apprentice.
I think the most likely answer is that they were stalemated, but Palpatine was weakening, so if they had not been interrupted by Anakin, Mace would have eventually been the winner. When Palpatine senses Anakin approaching them, then he throws the fight and pretends to be weak to force Anakin to defend him.
Also if Mace had called Anakin, “Master Skywalker.” Anakin would have never stopped Mace from killing Palpatine.
Great video! Thank you for sharing your opinion on the subject. I have been wondering about a certain hypothetical that I would like to hear your take about. You have explained in the past that Mace Windu developed Vaapad with the approval of the Jedi Council & with the assistance of Sora Bulq. However what if Anoon Bondara had survived his encounter with Maul & Mace Windu had enlisted his help instead of Sora Bulq's?
Luring Skywalker to the darkside is less important than appearing more powerful as a Sith over a Jedi. Palpatine loss. He could not beat a prime mace in saber combat!!!
I don't think that Palpatine had to throw the fight to get the his desired outcome. When Mace Windu and the other Masters stepped foot in to the Chancellor's, Palpatine had already gotten what he wanted. The only choice he to make was how Mace would die. If Palpatine would lose in the duel, then he would plead to Anakin....Mace would die. If he pleaded to Anakin, and Anakin pleaded with Mace to think about the Jedi Code, then Mace shuts off his lightsaber. Thus, giving Palpatine the opportunity to Force Lightning Mace...Mace dies. Then, Palpatine can talk Anakin down, saying something on the lines of, "See the Jedi are trying to replace or kill me. They don't understand, but you do. They won't stop until I'm gone." Basically, the same garbage he used in the movie. In other words, Palpatine had a plan for if he won or lost, and he never went into the fight to lose. So, Mace won the duel, out of pure luck, but was outwitted by Palpatine. Mace should have met with the council, before going anywhere. That way the Jedi could have prepared, accordingly.
I haven't delved into the lore too much, but I believe in one of your videos (Stupendous Wave) there is a point where Luke points out the weakness and failure of Sith combat. How the initial rush of emotions and hatred can allow a Sith to overcome a Jedi but that if the fight drags on those same emotions would result in the Sith making mistakes and giving the edge to the Jedi.
If this concept holds true, then Windu would most likely be the victor here. Vaapad would allow Windu to stay alive by feeding on Sidius's dark side energy along with his own. At which point all he needs to do is wait for a point where Sidius makes a mistake and then capatilize on it.
On a side note, I would like to clarify that I do not believe Windu is stronger in the force than Sidius. But Vaapad's ability to feed on the opponents fury creates a scenario where the more power Sidius unleashes against Windu, the more power Windu has to attack Sidius with.
Great video, love your work
The man that wrote the story said Mace won, end of discussion.
Nick Gillard, the man who choreographed the duel recently said that as far as he was concerned, Sidious threw the duel. He even posted the original choreography for the duel on his channel 'Gillardstunts'.
so hard to say because that was the thing which made Anakin feel like he could never return to the Jedi and he must kill them all.
This moment, is one of the hardest in Palpatine’s plan. Even if he threw the fight to expose Windu, and senssed Anakin’s fear, he could not be completely sure he would act on it or help him kill Windu. In a way, Anakin was both Windu’s salvation and destruction, his fear helped him defeat Palpatine, but also moved him to cut of his arm.
Same as with Yoda’s fight, if he did planned for it, it was too big of a risk. I rather believe Palpatine is a very powerful genius, that was very close to being defeated if not for the desire of the force to balance itself.
I see a certain duality here hence my answer: both are true. On the one hand, Sidious wants to "lose" and assume the victim's role vs "the oppression" of the Jedi. On the other hand, Mace does overpower Palpatine lightsaber-wise. However, a lightsaber duel and the lightsaber skill put to the test here are one side to the coin. The other one is that the duel in general is *not* only melee. It is a contest of two opposing forces and here, per the outcome, the Sith emerge triumphant, with the scheming, the cunning, the ability to forsee the future and to impact others, specifically Anakin. That's my 2 cents XD
Another way to look at it was that Windu was a reverse hostage and it would not have been possible to have that happen if Anakin were easily deceived. That's why the 'mistake' happened so early in the fight. Mace won, yes, he did, but he was allowed to win. The duels are not so fair, I definitely think Sidious may have been unable to beat Mace after a certain point...but he also could have figured out a way to escape him. He didn't escape because he wanted to be caught so he could turn Anakin. It was risky, but he knew about the Tusken Raiders. Anakin should never have told him about that. It was what gave Sidious the information he needed to know Anakin would follow through on his heart's desire.
As a reverse hostage, if Sidious wanted him dead, he would have killed him already is the reasoning. He needed him alive for Anakin's conversion. Only once Anakin finally betrayed Windu(instead of simply disobeying him) was Windu's usefulness to the Dark Lord spent to the max. And Sidious wasted no time in getting rid of Windu once that moment came. If Anakin didn't betray Windu, then Sidious would have had to like jump out of the window or something like that to stay alive. I don't know if he planned for that contingency or not...but I'd like to think that he didn't. I think that would be a much more interesting argument.
By allowing Sidious to win the duel, he became the hostage that's about to die as seen by Anakin. But Anakin didn't realize that Sidious had foreseen Windu's death and spared him. Anakin thought Windu and the others wore Sidious down and beat him through attrition. But nothing could be further from the truth. The reason why it was believable at the time however was because Windu was fighting so aggressively, trying so hard to win. If Windu just chilled after Sidious failed to strike him down, then maybe, just maybe, Anakin wouldn't have fallen for the concept that Sidious was worn out by fighting 4 Jedi. Windu could have just let up and not taken the fight seriously. Windu was done with the Dark Lord of the Sith. But the Dark Lord wasn't done with him yet...and that's why Windu was a reverse hostage.
All this to say that yes Windu won, because Sidious let him win, but Sidious also cheated and stole the win from Windu by involving Anakin. Of course we can also say that Windu was cheating too since he brought 3 buddies to fight Sidious, and he still would have lost if not for Sidious going easy on him. And when you point out something like that it makes people think your entire argument is wrong. Because they can't handle a little personality flaw of someone they like. I remember lots of Jedi died fighting robots in one of those movies... guess whose fault that was... my bet goes to Windu.
Imagine how different the fighting vs Sidious could have been if instead of what they did, they recalled Yoda, had him 1v1 Sidious, and observed the fight. Then, if Yoda loses, they can presumably use the knowledge of their witnessing the fight to properly defeat Sidious. Not saying that this would have necessarily been possible to arrange, but it's not a stretch considering 4 Jedi showed up to arrest the man, what's the big deal in waiting for one more? Maybe let Anakin watch Yoda fight too, after he finally becomes a father I mean. Oh wait, they didn't know he was becoming a father... hehhehe...another example of Sidious possessing privileged information...they lost their boy a long time ago... it just wasn't formalized until that night when Sidious renamed him to Vader.
My pet theory, there is no question that at the end of the fight the emperor was manipulating Mace Windu along with Anakin. Mace Windu goes into the conflict intending to arrest the emperor, but at the critical moment he instead tries to kill him.
The thing you have to remember is the emperor is also a seer, he is foreseeing a lot of these events and also sees himself being successful. We also know from the movies themselves that these visions are hard to interpret even though they're true and these future visions can help guide a Jedi's choices.
So it's entirely possible the emperor understood he had to fight Mace Windu and that it would advance his scheme even if he didn't know the exact future sequence of events. In fact as a result the emperor may actually be overconfident because he just sees all these visions of himself winning and doesn't understand the possible negative ramifications.
So it's quite possible that Mace out dueled the emperor, yet the fix was in from the very beginning.
Did Mace win the fight? I would say yes but Palpatine did throw the fight. Just look at when Palpatine had his lightsaber in his face before Anakin got there. With how Palpatine was at that moment, Palpatine would have killed Mace right then and there. There would not have been any mercy. Instead he was waiting for Anakin to show up so the duel continued.
I agree with the theory of Palpatine throwing the fight as he stops using force lightning for a moment acting as if he was out of energy to continue fighting
at that point he had resorted to trickery & deception, but he legitimately lost the lightsaber duel
In my opinion, Windu was actually winning. As with Siddious’ later duel with Yoda, he went blade to blade to mock the Jedi, and at some point he decided he’d have to fall back on his other force abilities, because he was losing. He poked Anakin with the force, who came running. Which wasn’t instant, but Siddious knew he could hold out until Anakin arrived.
Everybody holds Palpatine as having perfectly manipulated everyone. But stuff still happened that was out of his control. In the battle over Coruscant, what if some random event happened that derailed his plan? The ship he was in did get shot down, he managed to survive because Anakin could pilot the ship. But a stray star fighter might get shot down and crashed into the bridge, like what happened to the Executor in Ep 6.
He did not expect for Vader to lose to Obi-Wan. He was bragging to Yoda that Vader would eclipse them both. Then Vader lost and had his power level capped at 80%. He certainly didn’t expect the rebels to blow up the first Death Star. Or the second one, for that matter. And he didn’t think Vader would turn on him like that. (He broadly expected Vader to turn on him, so he made the armor vulnerable to force lightning. In the process of carrying Siddious the five feet and tossing him down the shaft, Vader took fatal damage from him. Siddious couldn’t imagine Vader being willing to die to beat him.). He didn’t plan on Maul losing and nearly dying, either. Nor Maul’s return. He didn’t expect the incidence when the clone Fives went crazy, which lead Rex to be able to recognize what was happening, and give Ahsoka the chance to remove it, so the pair could escape.
My point is that Siddious didn’t see any of that coming. He had contingency plans, though, so the final outcome of the Clone Wars wasnt really at risk.
In summary: Mace Windu was legit winning his fight with Palpatine. But when Anakin was about to show up, he threw the match at that point, knowing that his cavalry was coming. Yoda was likely a better overall fighter, but Vapaad made Mace the perfect counter to Siddious.
Mace's skills and Palpatine's calculating nature are both factors in this fight since both are covered in the novelization as well as talked about by Lucas in his commentary. I think there's a chance Sidious held back at the very start (since he dazed all of the Jedi with his force howl and arguably could have blitzed Windu if he wanted to), but from that point on, there's really no clear evidence that Palpatine was holding back. The emphasis is all on Windu's skills in the moments leading up to him disarming Palpatine. However, not only do Palpatine's torrents of force lightning prove he was faking being weak on the ground, but Lucas himself also confirmed that he was pretending at that point. There are SO many layers to this fight and it would ultimately be too simple to credit only Windu or only Palpatine for how this fight played out from beginning to end.
Im just going to chock this up to the WILL OF THE LIVING FORCE. Think of it. The chosen one prophecy had to be fulfilled. Mace killing Palpatine, while it would temporarily destroy the sith, would only fester within Anakin and lead to his darkside turn a little later than normal. Thus, the cycle continues anew. Anakin's intervention and palpatines ability to read the room and adjust his plans on the fly were all points to serving the will of the living force. Their decisions were all influenced by the unseen machinations of a god that cared not for who wins or loses but seeks a balance above all else at the expense of all others.
Or maybe I've been watching too much Kreia monologs....
I would've loved to see Anakin/Vader vs Mace. Those two had a tension buildup throughout three movies without any kind of real confrontation or resolution.
I like the idea that, at the beginning at least, Palpatine wasn't taking it seriously, but as the fight drew on he had to.
The fact that Windu had to put everything he had into Vapaad just to keep the scales balanced says that Palpatine wasn't necessarily throwing the fight.
Also, that Windu gained even a momentary edge because of Anakin's own fear points to the possibility that Palpatine wasn't throwing. He wasn't using everything he had, sure, but as we saw on screen that when he does use his Force powers, Windu almost kills him with that as well.
So, I don't think Palpatine necessarily threw especially since there was no way to know that Anakin would even have gone there at all. Not with 100% certainty, anyway. So it would've been a huge gamble to throw the fight and it might not have paid off in the end.
It's funny how both of you dismiss that Siddious won the duel. Siddious continues to live as where Windu is never seen again. When two enter a duel and only one leaves the one who leaves alive WINS.
In my headcanon, Palpatine could have ended the fight at any time but he needed Anakin to make a mistake to finally tip him over to the dark side. But, Palpatine was only hoping to prolong the duel until Anakin stepped in, or in the film he only pretended to lose. But, Windu legitimately used Vaapad to beat Palpatine in a stacked duel, or in the films, Windu used Vaapad to direct Palpatine's best attack back at him. In my headcanon, either way, Mace Windu exceeded Palpatine's expectations and caused a new unforeseen factor in Palpatine's plans. But, Palpatine risked it all on Anakin anyways, feeling that he had corrupted and swayed Anakin enough to rely on him.
My take is that I don't think Vapaad by itself was enough to completely overpower Palpatine, but Mace had more stamina to keep up a lightsaber fight longer than Palpatine. If it went long enough, Palpatine may have run out of steam after an insane period of time if he did not get the chance to use The Force, but Palpatine sensed Anakin coming and faltered knowing that even if he lost he could turn the situation to his advantage. Likewise, as it said in the novel, this is further tipped by Windu drawing on Anakin's fear.
In my head cannon, Palpatine, Vader, Windu, Yoda, etc are all tools of the force which is nature...nature ALWAYS corrects itself... Palpatine became the embodiment of the dark side because he had to in order to manipulate Skywalker to become Vader to bring balance to the force...Luke ultimately became the light side energy that compelled Vader to turn back & fullfil his destiny...the older Jedi were gone, & now the old Sith were gone, which was the will of the force... Palpatine simply served his purpose just as Obi Wan did without the same "perceived" power... remember, the story is from the point of view of the Wills...
Mace Windu absolutely won. One his power conducts and outputs energy through Vapaad. Second Mace is a true and tried warrior and has many battles under his belt where Palpatine hardly ever duels. No way Palpatine threw this fight. Force wise yeah Palpatine is more powerful, lightsaber dueling.. no.
It’s my belief that Sidious was indeed controlling the situation and everything played out how he expected, although the one thing he didn’t expect was just how EFFECTIVE Mace Windu would be against him. I think that if the fight were to persist, with both opponents going all out, Mace Windu would have taken a complete victory
I 100% believe and agree with this for sure, although I also think it would be unrealistic or uncharacteristic(particularly at this point in time) for Sidious not to have multiple backup plans, including but not limited to.... just jumping out the window XD(hes on Coruscant... Not hard for him to survive or find protections, or call for backup... at which point, then what was Maces plan?)
@@tandava-089 to me it seemed as though Anakin’s arrival was the backup plan; the turn of fate Sidious needed to happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sidious happened to arrange Anakin’s arrival at that exact moment, although it could have just as likely been a coincidence of the Force. Either way, this was the moment the Jedi truly fell
@@nickmillar999 That was probably one of many/several 'backup plans'.... so calling it a 'turn of fate' might be an exaggeration or mischaracterization. Additionally, it would only make sense that Sidious would be able to sense Anakin. He literally just revealed himself to Anakin. He could have hid. He knew Anakin was conflicted. The idea that Sidious didnt know Anakin was coming, but got disarmed EXACTLY when Anakin arrived.... :I
I do think Mace was stronger than Sidious had expected, and there might have even been a moment or two where he lost total control and was for a split second concerned or afraid(not because Mace could have killed him in that moment, but because he is so used to having total control, even being caught off guard at all is probably very unusual for him!)
That said, I dont think Sidious was ever in a situation where, had Anakin not arrived for instance, that Mace could have killed him or that he could not have escaped
Counterpoint: For all the planning, deception, and scheming that Palpatine pulled off, he never could bring about the death of Obi-Wan not matter what kind of situation he put him through. That's what gives me pause about giving Palps too much credit. Or maybe we have underestimated Obi-Wan just like everyone else....
It was obviously a bait, that was made clear in the movie, if he dies he can't teach Anakin how to save Padme, if he got arrested by Windu he could just chain lightning when their lightsaber wasn't on and escape that way, and he owned the courts anyway so capture wasn't even a concern for him. It was timed to perfection that he was made to look like he was about to die and only Anakin could save him. Forcing Anakin to cross over the point of no return by killing a fellow Jedi. Clearly, Palpatine took a dive.
Maybe the Palp's favorite oracle told him that Mace would defeat him but Anakin would save his Darth ass.
Windu is aided immensely by his lightsaber form tbh, Vapaad is essentially Dark Side Kryptonite
Palpatine was in control the whole time. He wanted Mace to Win and let him, he sensed Anakin was on his way, so he let Mace get the upper hand and put himself at swordpoint. Palpatine knew Mace would threaten his life after he was beaten and that Anakin would try to make Palpatine stand trial. The seeds of temptation for 'saving Padme with the Dark Side of the Force' were planted. If Palpatine had a reason to fight to the death, he wouldn't have bothered with lightsaber combat. He would have called upon the totality of the Dark-Side and would have killed Mace instantly.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the force scream (or if you touched on it, it was brief). Mace was the only Jedi in the room who resisted that, so apparently his Vapaad has more utilization than just lightsaber dueling.