Did Mace Windu Really Beat Palpatine FINALLY Answered - Revenge of the Sith Explained
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All I know, is Mace flew out the W-I-N-D-U
👁️👅👁️
lol
Lmao 😂
He must have been part Russian or had something on the Clintons.
I don’t have to even watch this video to tell you that: for all of Palpatines meticulous planning, he would have never made his own selfish intentions a toss up, Mace found a shatter point and Sidious made the best of it, as only he could. He had a loaded deck.
That's my thinking too, I think Palpatine did both in his malicious way: lost the duel to Windu, but knew how to use it in his favor, to seduce Anakin.
I would agree. Sidious wasn't just going to let anybody into his office. He would know if the jedi were coming for him before they even got there. My opinion is if he knew Anakin would not be there, he would have gotten away before the jedi even got to his office. And if the jedi still somehow got to him before he could get away, Sidious had control of the senate and the courts. It's my belief he would have surrendered peacefully and forced the jedi to beat him in the courts that HE controlled. Either way, the jedi look like the bad guys, Order 66 is put in motion, and events still carry out as planned.
That's a good point, I never saw it from that point of view.
@@dominiclamar6565He told Mace he was surprised by his early arrival, so it did seem that he was caught off-guard. Also no clone troopers or royal guards.
@@Leondrius Palpatine also said he had the power to save Padme. He was LYING. Palpatine knew with Yoda on Kashyyk and Obi-Wan on Utapau, there would be no one to keep Anakin from turning to the dark side. With Mace and Yoda split, he knew he could take on any Jedi. And if he got caught by surprise in a duel, as he did with Mace, Anakin would ALWAYS be his ace in the hole. It was a great plan, although not perfect
I honestly think that Mace Windu did defeat Palpatine
He lost the blade fight... As intended.. Mace would never win a battle including force powers as well, like Sidious against Yoda..( wich Yoda actually won as well, collecting a full force lightning from Sidious with his bare hand, but got unlucky and blown away the wrong way and fell down 10 meters, getting hurt and guards showing up..) So yeah mace beat him in a LIGHT SABER fight, would never win in a real fight where Sidious wen't all out like against Yoda.
@@karerabbe7829 Not really, since Windu’s use of Vaapad makes him stronger every time somebody uses the Dark Side against him
Palpatine took a gamble but a calculated one, to turn Anakin to the dark side. Revealing his identity was very risky and the potential for him to be killed was there but it worked out 8n the end.
He lost the battle but won the war.
@@TechmejJust in lightsaber combat... Also Sidious disn't even try, or use a single ability.. He lost yes, but on purpose, or failed hubris that he was able to beat him in a lightsaber fight alone.. He didn't dare do that with Yoda lol.. He even tried running away from the battle
Palpy was Mace's shriveled little bitch.
Mace Windu wields the power of Samuel Jackson, which eclipses Palpatine's power.
🤣😂
Bible verses and a gun.
1. Sidious never takes risks if he can possibly avoid it. He always stacks the deck if he can, and he only gets personally involved if the stakes are sufficiently high, if he's forced to act - Maul's actions on Mandalore, and the Jedi closing in on him, forced his hand. He manipulated circumstances to ensure that Anakin would be there, while Obi-Wan and Yoda were off-world, so as to appeal to him if needs be, but that's it. He also did everything he could to avoid fighting Yoda after becoming Emperor, because he knew there was no benefit.
2. Trying to control a lightsabre duel against one of the best there has ever been is the very definition of risky, if not outright stupid.
3. Sidious is an excellent duellist, but he is NOT one of the very, very best. As you guys cited, he was suddenly very worried when he heard about Dooku effectively stalemating Yoda on Geonosis. When facing Maul and Savage, he always tries to keep them apart, take them on one at a time, and makes doubly sure to stun Maul before turning on Savage alone and finishing him. In the following combat, Maul actually gets the upperhand through rage, superior size, and superior skill. Sidious stops looking amused, manages to break the blade lock, and as always, resorts to bullying in the Force. He tries to do the same thing against Windu, and it's utterly ineffective - they're stalemated, and with Force lightning blasting back at him, Windu has the upper hand.
He tries to do it yet again against Yoda, when it becomes clear that he simply cannot beat the Jedi Grandmaster with a blade, and he looks genuinely afraid a couple of times, first when he can't overpower Yoda, then when Yoda chucks one of the pods straight back at him, and then again when Yoda meets his Force Lightning with Tutaminis and cannot be overwhelmed, causing a massive energy backlash. Yoda falls, and Palpatine, frightened, is barely scrabbling at one of the pods. If he hadn't caught the edge, odds are good that he would have died an extremely undignified death. And he doesn't go down to finish Yoda, but escapes - uncharateristic from a total sadist, except entirely in-character for someone who KNOWS that there is no benefit to fighting Yoda at this point. Moreover, Yoda has proved his better in lightsabre combat, and his equal with the Force, whatever anyone else says. However, Sidious has already won, by destroying the Jedi. That's where his power really is.
You spoke nothing but 100% facts. I don't understand why other people can't see it. Mace won the duel but would have lost the force fight.
@@CO77INS Only after he managed to warm up though. Sidious reverse captured him. I definitely agree with the other guy, Sidious was not quite on the same level of saber mastery of Windu, but he didn't need to be to pull out a win apparently. He just chose not to take that win right away. And that win slipped away and belonged to Mace while Anakin allowed Sidious to steal it. All that battling until Anakin showed up, it was pretty much Sidious as an old man slowly losing a fight, getting worn out. But he already checkmated Mace and the movie also clearly shows that. But lightsaber combat isn't chess, so that didn't count as a win. And that's why we say he threw the match. I believe he did because he didn't follow through on the 'checkmate' vibe and just let Windu fight him where WIndu eventually got in the zone and it's okay if Sidious lost at that point, nobody's perfect.
Totally agree with everything you said. I wish Mace would get more love. I'm happy to hear about the new novel, The Glass Castle. Dude is literally top 5 most powerful Jedi of ALL TIME.
Wow you sure wrote a lot huh. The only thing I don’t understand is that for all of his supposed brilliance, the way he dies at the hands of Vader is stupidity at its finest. He knew exactly how Vader felt about him and his son. He still chose to leave himself vulnerable and expose himself to two sky walkers that want to defeat him. I don’t think a master Batman level planner would ever put himself in that position. And then he died lol. Truly a buzzkill way to end the movies. But hey y’all can start debating if palpatine let Vader kill him so he can come back and then get killed by Ray skywalker 😂😂😂
@@arielguzman9336 If you read through the Bane novels trilogy, there's a section where Bane is learning about how to perform force lightning, and he learns that the key is something along the lines of focusing really hard on dark emotions... in particular, hatred. So the Emperor was talking so much trash against Luke to build up that hatred. And all this attention to hatred likely didn't leave him vulnerable to an angry Vader which could have been what he expected, but it left him vulnerable to a concerned-parent Vader which he was incapable of detecting while performing the FL move.
George said Mace won. So…Mace won.
Nope.
Just because he said it doesn’t mean that you have to accept it. You’re free to interpret the story however you want. You know, death of the author and all that.
With all that being said, Mace won.
@tsm784 A grown man advocating not to accept reality 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@arc7xangel897 It’s fiction though ….
@tsm784 There is still the reality of the events that took place in the storyline according to said storylines creator. It's not a matter of opinion what took place in another persons story. What the creator/ author says is a fact pertaining to their creation is the law concerning such. Something headcannon Fandom seems to have difficulty understanding.
Vapaad is the perfect answer for someone like Sidious. I’m a Sidious fan but Windu clearly won this and Sidious used manipulation to draw on Anakin’s fear and impulsivity which is ideal for a true Sith like him. Dooku’s is much weaker than Sidious but he uses the dark side in an extremely cool and controlled manner. Compared to anakin and Sidious. Anakin uses it like a hammer whereas Sidious used it like an axe. Dooku on the other hand uses it like a sword used in fencing. Wasting no energy and fighting with composure, focus, and deadly precision. Dooku Mixing his Jedi skills along with his fighting style I can imagine vapaad surprisingly failing against him but Sidious once reveling in the dark side would indulge too much underestimating Windu and making mistakes hence his him being disarmed
Indeed, you can only beat Palpatine by using his own power against him and that is what vaapad does.
@@pullo5518 Vapaad do not protect against force power attacks. Palpatine could have killed Mace with force crush if he wanted to.
It's not only that. Remember that raw power isn't everything. Anakin got beat by Obi-wan who isn't close to him in power. Mace, and Yoda just match up good with Palpatine because they are very skilled, and near his power level. The fights could go either way, but they have what it takes to take him. Mace won that fight, but could have just as easily lost it.
@@headstrongbachelor3152 "Palpatine could have killed Mace with force crush if he wanted to." When would someone use such a power? Oh, like in a life-threatening situation and clearly being outmatched by Windu? But he didn't. And not to mention, Vapaad protected him from force lightning, which is a force power attack. So, what we can conclude here is that Palpatine could not do such a thing against Windu because he was outmatched and overpowered. And even if you still want to think this way, remember: George Lucas said Windu won.
@@Cadd801 Mace could only direct the force lightening back to Sidious because lightsaber have the power to deflect force lightning in general. Vapaad do not protect against force power attacks such as force grip, force crush and force push. Sidious played weak to manipulate Anakin to betray the Jedi.
These lore guys have fallen in love with Palpatine to the point they’ve made him a sith god, even more powerful than Lucas envisioned.
lucas also said star wars is only for kids.
Read the lore and you'll see why Sidious was so powerful. He even had a higher midichlorian count than yoda.
I prefer to think that Palps entered the fight thinking Mace was no match for him, but ended up losing to him and Anakin came in at the perfect time for Palps to take advantage of the situation and turn his loss into a victory. Prequel Palps was cunning enough to think on his feet like that.
I really like your explanation; I think it fits the characters really well. Mace was the worst match up for Palps, and it's definitely in character for Palps to look down on the Jedi as a whole after years upon years of successfully sneaking around right under their noses and manipulating them. He wouldn't respect Mace and in that hubris would quickly get taken off guard and possibly overwhelmed by Mace's vapad. But the quick thinking to turn Mace's superior position in the fight into his own downfall is also spot on Palps too. Such a good explanation for it!
Whether it'd come out the same way if Palps DID respect Mace enough to come into the fight on guard and treating Mace as a genuine threat is an interesting question. I'd lean more towards Palps winning that clash
And another thought on the reverse; I simply can't imagine Palps putting himself entirely in the hands of another. He does not trust and the thought of being truly defenseless and utterly in another's power would be poison to him. If he really did throw the fight then unless he has something up his sleeve that was never mentioned, he would be utterly in Mace and Anakin's hands. That just doesn't sound like something Palps would allow to happen.
That's what I think too but I also think that he didn't take the win early when he had the chance. Once Mace warmed up, then it was up to Anakin to save the old man's hide. Palpatine chose to lose so that he could win a new apprentice. He didn't like Dooku because Dooku wanted to have a brotherhood, but replacing him was a tricky matter, even though he knew what to do, he had to play his roles very carefully.
@@funkydinosaur Well, he is the chancellor, IN HIS OFFICE... On the capital planet....
If he didnt have 5-20 aces up his sleeve, Id be shocked.... Him taking a careless risk here and having to fallback makes less than zero sense narratively, and would be beyond completely out of character
The idea that Sidious threw the fight assumes he KNEW Mace would not skewer him immediately, and he couldn't have known that. Also it has him certain that Anakin would arrive to be converted and he didn't KNOW that would happen.
Sidious could train against every combat style BUT Vaapad, so this would have been his first encounter with it and was stalemated with a finite amount of energy to put into the fight. It was inevitable that Mace would have beaten Sidious, and Anakin arriving just gave him a chance to turn the stalemate/ loss into a bid to convert Anakin with a non zero chance that Mace would end him the instant his defenses were down.
Well said!
Yeah, a lot of folks like to imagine that Palpatine was such a skilled manipulator that he could control every single factor and variable down to the second.
While we've seen that he is very...very skilled at manipulating people there are limits to what he can control. We've seen before that Palpatine had been stymied by political opposition that resisted his clandestine efforts to undermine, like Duchess Satine.
We've seen things go Palpatine's way due to what could only be considered lucky coincidences that he simply was given the opportunity to leap on. Like the faulty inhibitor chip. If a less shrewd and observant commander than Admiral Trench had been involved that situation could have gotten away from Palpatine. If Maul hadn't crossed paths with Death Watch, Palpatine still would have had Duchess Satine's political opposition holding back his efforts.
He's not an omniscient god. And quite often, Palpatine had to make things up on the fly to account for things he could not control.
He would have known that Anakin was coming. He also has Mace beat early but didn't finish him off. Old Palpy also very much relied on foresight and possibly foresaw the future and that Mace wouldn't immediately kill him. This can be seen from both sides though.
Not even Aboloth could see her own defeat by Luke and Darth Krat. How can Palpatine forsee what a Dark side God couldn't?
@@tootriv211 Simple, because she's power incarnate and has never had to use deception. Palpatine is at the top of his game here and had been around these Jedi for over a decade learning about them only to reveal himself at the 11th hour when the dark side had never been stronger.
Off topic but if Mace Windu was the one to train Anakin things would have played out different. Obi Wan was new to being a master and they let his first padawon be a child with the potential to become the most powerful man in history knowing the trauma he came in with. Anakin and Windu would have butt heads A LOT at first but through missions and training overtime Windu would realize they have similarities. Windu’s unique talent for having enough inner strength to resist the dark side would have eventually rubbed off on anakin through much time, trial, and error and on the other side anakin would not only blossom into a powerful Jedi but one capable of resisting the dark side and channeling it to fight for good. Windu’s hesitation to teach Anakin Vapaad due to its dangers would bruise Anakin’s ego and motivate Anakin to overcome his demons to master that form and through obtaining self mastery he becomes an unshakable force in body and mind. Anakin’s training under Windu would be a journey complete self mastery with a careful eye of Anakin’s inner darkness Obi Wan missed all this Windu wouldn’t. Instead of being fed constant praise for how talented he is he will be taught absolute self control and humility making him a Jedi he truly overcame his fear. Either which way he was destined to destroy palpatine. So if he had taken this path it would have been the path everyone initially presumed to take. Facing the Sith as a Jedi and not as one of them
I agree, the problem is he always came off as Jealous of Anakin because he was a prodigy before Anakin.
@@mrjemason Yea I agree
Yeah, I thought 'why not Yoda?' but Windu might have worked out okay as well. Obi-Wan was too young to train someone else, they should have sent him on a few missions as a knight first at least before making him anyone's master. Windu probably didn't want to train Anakin, but he probably could have been convinced to do it if some effort was made for it. In the end I think they put too much attention on Obi-Wan agreeing to train the boy. Qui-Gon didn't literally mean he needed the boy trained by Obi-Wan specifically. He just wanted the boy to learn to use the Force. Obviously he didn't want Maul teaching him, so Obi-Wan wasn't the worst possible choice... but I don't think Qui-Gon thought it was ideal. Obviously Qui-Gon wanted to "train the boy". Another interesting choice for teacher may have been Dooku. I don't know if that's possible since I think that was around the time when Dooku was leaving the Jedi Order. On the other hand, maybe him leaving the order and taking Anakin with him wherever he went would have been good for Anakin. He was the one that was working with Qui-Gon, training him... so he's kind of like a grandpa for Anakin rather than the brother that Obi-Wan was...and Grandpas and Grandmas often make for great parents surprisingly. All that extra experience does wonders.
Canon and George said Mace won. If not for Anakin's intervention he would have killed Sidious.
Mic drop
Nah
Maybe arrest him but not kill him.
@@zachv367 He would have killed him. Yoda said so to Obi Wan, the council was in full agreement. He was to die, he was way too powerful and evil.
Of course he would have. Star Wars would have been changed to Star Peace just like that. 🤌🏽
It always seemed silly that Palpatine could beat Windu. Palpatine had been a great lightsaber student 30 years before. Windu has been training daily and on the front lines of a war for 3 years.
Facts the only thing that palpatine had going for him is the fact that mace was not the chosen one and palpatine knew it I believed that anakin was the outcome his n plagueis experiment. Mace was a better combat warrior and his shatter vision ability puts him above most Jedi even if mace did strike him down I don’t think palpatine would lose he would find a way back cuz only the chosen one can bring balance to the force
It amazes me how people always say Lucas word is law, but yet when he straight up say windu wins people all of a sudden want to disagree
Regardless of his power vaapad is for using the dark against him
This is prolly why the fandom is the way it is bc people always try to overwright what the creator wants
This!!!! Dude, I've been saying this. How do people tell an author and creator about HIS story? This headcannon foolishness has become commonplace in fiction/ anime communities. And is a serious sign of mental instability as far as I'm concerned.
I did not know Lucas said that Windu did win.
@@ShadowCthulhu He's literally been publicly stating it for years and has not deviated from his statements. Be it answering people online or at cons.
@@arc7xangel897”a serious sign of mental instability?” Seriously? They question and interpret the story as they see it and that’s a sign of “mental instability?” That’s ridiculous and absurd, and seems an awful lot like the pot calling the kettle black to me.
@@phantom0456 Projecting much? There is no as you, they, or me sees it. When the creator of a fictional title tells you what is. One would think a grown man would comprehend this. But it's 2024 so I'm not surprised.
I mean i go with what George says. It is his story and his characters.
Given that George has changed his mind more than once - contrast his early opinions of the Dark Side as nothing more than a perversion to the Mortis Trilogy, the last major story arc that he had a major hand in, where Filoni et al were listening to him very carefully (which is why the storyboarded scene of Bane and Revan didn't appear), where the Son and the Dark Side are considered a natural part of the Force.
But yes, I agree here.
Remember people, Mace Windu was leader of the Order and the best duelist WITHOUT using Vaapad. There were no darksiders and Sith had been unheard of for thousands of years. The man literally had the Sith Kryptonite Lightsaber form, barely used it, and was STILL the strongest along with Yoda. You honestly think Palpy stood a chance?? That's like Jiren from Dragonball Super being able to go Super Saiyan but he never uses it cuz he doesn't have to. That's basically who Mace Windu is. EVERYONE on his home planet is Force-sensitive. Dude was a GOAT even before the Phantom Menace.
This film was made by Kucas. Therefore everything BEFORE the purchase of Star Wars is Lucas lore. He made it. It's his lore.
nahhh palpatine got arrogant and slipped, windu took advantage using vapaad + shatter point… anakin comes in and stops windu etc. this being the case is also just much more poetic, the dark side being defeated, the only thing anakin has to do is listen to windu. it’s so ironic
I think it’s both palp slipped but I don’t think he was as weak as he was portrayed to anakin that was to make him believe he needed help as we saw after mace hands sliced off sidious fully comes out even says unlimited power thus showing us that the dark side clouds our vision and and can easily deceive their opponents, especially manipulation being palpatines strong force abilities
@@pkizzlebeatsWhat does him saying "unlimited power" have to do with whether he was more powerful or threw the duel or anything like that?
"I...I...so weak...I can't hold him off any longer..." You just know Palpatine could barely say that ish without choking on laughter 😆
Thank to you both for putting these very fun and interesting videos together.we appreciate it very much.
Stupendous Team, I appreciate all the work you do ! The longer form discussions are definitely my favorite of all your great content ! Hope to see more coming!
When is a win not a win.
When grown ass men with mentals can't cope with reality.
Beyond excited to give this a listen later! I always love when the Archivist shows up for these long form videos, I really appreciate the perspectives he brings to the table, and I enjoy listening to you both bounce ideas off each other 👏
Thanks both for your efforts.
I'd like to believe Palpatine was always at least 5 steps ahead because he was on the verge of becoming the most powerful Sith Lord and taking down the jedi order. So he threw the fight in an attempt to manipulate anakin that the jedi are the bad guys because he's great at manipulating odds into his favor. That fight was a stalemate before anakin arrived.
Love the long form content brotha keep it up!
The only way to argue for Palpatine is assumptions/head canon… Mace literally has multiple staff and creators saying he won soooo he won until someone officially retcons it🤷🏾♂️
Love these deeps dives! Great knowledge and insights
Oh man, this was fantastic! I have gone back and forth on this debate as well. I am really enjoying these debates.
Loving these long form discussions! Keep it up, gents! Love to hear y’all talk and compare the different eras of Sith. How the old masters hold up against rule of two vs newer era of Kryat.
I also think that Palpatine purposefully lets Windu reflect his lightning, almost as a way of "payment" he is willing to permanently disfigure himself and endure immense pain in order to seem even more of a victim in Anakin's eyes.
No, he was trying to "destroy" Mace (according to Lucas) & show Anakin the superiority of the dark side
You guys together is always a pleasure to hear concerning. Great stuff.☺️😌🙏😌☺️
Sidious for sure had that fight planned. He led Mace to where he wanted so Anakin could step in. The sith caught the jedi off guard and palps was on such a higher level at that time.
All opinions have to be disregarded concerning this battle. George Lucas has already stated that Windu defeated Palpatine fair and square.
The same George Lucas who said sidious could've killed mace at anytime with the force you really wanna go here let's do it
to be fair, he changes his mind all the fucking time
@@GeekyFloyd Not as much as Dave Filoni and Disney.
@@poppadnice52 Never heard Lucas say anything bout that.
No George Lucas have never said that. He allowed people to have their own interpretation about the duel.
I personally think that Mace Windu won the fight fair & square legitimately as the culmination of the Sith's grand plan hinged on Order 66 rather than Anakin's turn to Darth Vader which means that there was no need to turn Anakin to the dark side, that's just a nice bonus.
Order 66 would have still went on fine without Anakin in the picture and Sidious would have been the one to rule the Empire as the final Dark Lord of the Sith rather than now having to deal with a potential rival. So yeah I am pretty sure that Sidious was fighting for his life and the Sith grand plan here with everything he's got and not gambling it all away for a bonus prize in the form of Darth Vader
For me, Palpatine lost the lightsaber duel, but Palpatine had stronger Force abilities to win even without his blades (yes, the second one was not used). No way he would have let Mace strike him.
Feels like you’re reading my mind with the videos lately
Palps didn't lose until anakin showed up he clearly played both of them.
100% people making no sense, clinging to some one off statement, ignoring whats shown on screen or makes any sense.... Why? Cause Mace/sam cool and old white man yucky and bad?
Its really what Im starting to see and think the more comments I read and the more I get to see what kind of person says what >.>....
Sam/Mace is/was cool(fans definitely ruining him for me)
I still see him as I did in the 03 series! and Mace was DOPE!
Fanboys really making me dislike him tho....
Black man good, evil white guy pathetic, obviously... how silly of me to take the most evil mastermind ever as a serious threat, or ever assume hes got backup plans... nope... Hes just pathetic, and got lucky. If it wasnt for whiney emo boy, back man save everything, obviously... bigot
*Everything proceeded as I had foreseen.*
Unlimited POWAH!!!
~thug life song meme as the weed cigarette floats to badass shades emperor palps mouth~
Looking at the fight scene recently, I still think Windu won the duel but his hubris was, that he failed to bring Anakin along for the arrest.
it was probably the right call but he brought the wrong Jedi with him to try to arrest Sideous
I don't think that Palpatine had to throw the fight to get the his desired outcome. When Mace Windu and the other Masters stepped foot in to the Chancellor's, Palpatine had already gotten what he wanted. The only choice he to make was how Mace would die. If Palpatine would lose in the duel, then he would plead to Anakin....Mace would die. If he pleaded to Anakin, and Anakin pleaded with Mace to think about the Jedi Code, then Mace shuts off his lightsaber. Thus, giving Palpatine the opportunity to Force Lightning Mace...Mace dies. Then, Palpatine can talk Anakin down, saying something on the lines of, "See the Jedi are trying to replace or kill me. They don't understand, but you do. They won't stop until I'm gone." Basically, the same garbage he used in the movie. In other words, Palpatine had a plan for if he won or lost, and he never went into the fight to lose. So, Mace won the duel, out of pure luck, but was outwitted by Palpatine. Mace should have met with the council, before going anywhere. That way the Jedi could have prepared, accordingly.
The concept that seems appropriate to me would be that Windu was custom made to counter the darkside lightsaber techniques of any sith. Palpatine was a phenomenal lightsaber duelist, so this is conceivably one of the toughest matchups for either duelist. I believe that if the fight has continued, Windu would have eventually forced Palpatine to resort to his command if the darkside powers to prevail, much in the way that he did against Yoda, or he would have prevailed on lightsaber skills alone. Knowing that the weakness of the Jedi and it's council members is an adherence to the rule based logic and morality, gives Palpatine the edge when Anakin enters the situation. To mimic the same method that Palpatine used to prevail against Yoda, he resorted to the darkside to achieve his goal. In this case it was his manipulation of both Anakin and Windu. Once Anakin's presence was made known, Palpatine recognized the conflict between Anakin and Windu. Windu, being so focused on the fight, was interrupted by his difficult relationship with Anakin. Anakin reminds him of the Jedi way stating Palpatine should stand trial. This conflict was present before the words were even spoken, and Palpatine had prior knowledge of this conflict and seemed confident enough to let his lightsaber go and focus his full attention to the manipulation of the conflict to his intended result. The result is that, though Windu could have achieved a true victory, by manipulating the existing conflicts, Palpatine chose, in the moment, to change his tactics from winning the duel to winning the war through the same manipulation tactics that he had employed throughout his life.
This was a very well thought out discussion. Thank you both for this. Revenge of the Sith is my favorite Star Wars movie.
I agree with the theory of Palpatine throwing the fight as he stops using force lightning for a moment acting as if he was out of energy to continue fighting
at that point he had resorted to trickery & deception, but he legitimately lost the lightsaber duel
9:40 - Another point: laying aside "power" for a moment, think about who we're talking about here, this is Palpatine, the guy who was a God-like manipulator. He thought of nearly EVERYTHING and was the main directing brain behind his own rise to Emperor and the fall of the Jedi. Is THAT guy really not going to be able to control a four-on-one duel? Come on. It doesn't matter what George said, the characters have to make sense within the universe that was created.
Mace "winning" makes no sense. Palpatine allowed himself to be disarmed to tip Anakin over the edge. This is consistent with the characters and lore. A random comment by George doesn't trump the internal consistency of the universe itself. Otherwise anything goes. What's next, does Chewbacca whip out a lightsaber and suddenly declare himself grand master of the Jedi Order?
Mace was by no means a joke to Palpatine, but the thumbnail shows Palpatine could have killed him at least once and likely could have one-shotted him at the beginning of the duel if so desired, you know, like he did with the other THREE in like FIVE seconds.
By the way, this isn't even mentioning another option: that if Palpatine REALLY thought he was in genuine danger I'm 1000% sure he also had the contingency of escape or assistance (i.e. by the clones, even as just a distraction while he fled). Why was this not used? Firstly, arrogance perhaps (though he notably does try to escape Yoda later on), secondly, he didn't because that wasn't the point, he wanted to goad Anakin into betraying Mace and the Jedi. LOL
If not for Anakin being brainwashed, Mace Windu would have killled Palpatine and won
No, no, NOOOO! UNLIMITED POWAH!!!
I see a certain duality here hence my answer: both are true. On the one hand, Sidious wants to "lose" and assume the victim's role vs "the oppression" of the Jedi. On the other hand, Mace does overpower Palpatine lightsaber-wise. However, a lightsaber duel and the lightsaber skill put to the test here are one side to the coin. The other one is that the duel in general is *not* only melee. It is a contest of two opposing forces and here, per the outcome, the Sith emerge triumphant, with the scheming, the cunning, the ability to forsee the future and to impact others, specifically Anakin. That's my 2 cents XD
I go with whatever Lucas decided since he’s the creator
People are wildly misinterpreting a one off that was said casually about how the scene SEEMS and running with it, ignoring that EVEN IF they took it at face value(Mace 'overpowered' Sidious, causing him to lose his lightsaber) Sidious still had MANY options, and the fight was FAR from over for MANY reasons
"The sequence always started out with mace overpowering, Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers, but this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later." - George Lucas
Mace wins the dual regardless. When Anakin shows up Palpatine feigns weakness to get help.
Don't you guys run a Star Wars channel? How are you having this debate?
Overpowering someone isnt winning the fight. He overpowered him MOMENTARILY(causing him to lose his lightsaber).... were talking at the moment about how a fight scene plays out thematically. That doesnt mean that the fight was ever over, or that Sidious didnt still have many options.
Also, George originally planned for Luke to be Anakin. Later he planned for Luke and Leia to actually get together... I mean, if you wana walk about what George originally planned or said...
Overpowering someone(within a fight) is not the fight being finished, at all... Also, again.... were talking about how something is portrait! Not how something necessarily is! Hes literally talking about how things went when he was still toying with various ideas himself!
And you guys ignore whats on screen, ignore common sense, and cling to a one off musing that contradicts entirely both what is shown, and the characters, not to mention themes of the whole show and story!
@@thomasinefitzpatrick what's on screen is Mace winning and then you speculate why.
@@theyetti90 Thats not whats shown though, but you can see it that way if you choose to. Not even remotely whats actually portrait though
@@thomasinefitzpatrick it is🙃
@@theyetti90 Cope? XD
George said he did so that’s what it is.
The person that choreographs the fights Said in an interview pulpitine One against Mace windo
Im just going to chock this up to the WILL OF THE LIVING FORCE. Think of it. The chosen one prophecy had to be fulfilled. Mace killing Palpatine, while it would temporarily destroy the sith, would only fester within Anakin and lead to his darkside turn a little later than normal. Thus, the cycle continues anew. Anakin's intervention and palpatines ability to read the room and adjust his plans on the fly were all points to serving the will of the living force. Their decisions were all influenced by the unseen machinations of a god that cared not for who wins or loses but seeks a balance above all else at the expense of all others.
Or maybe I've been watching too much Kreia monologs....
Putting aside Lucas's own explanation for a moment....
There is no way that palpatine would throw the fight, in the hope that anakin would just "show up" at the most important moment, to succumb to palpatines final manipulation, complete his transition to the dark side, and palpatine would finish mace off.
Palpatine methodically planned every detail of his take over for years and years and years. He may have known / believed that eventually anakin would turn, but he wouldn't risk everything he'd done, and was nearly completed, on the anakin factor. That would be foolish, risky, and not very sithy.
There's no doubt that when anakin arrived, he absolutely utilized that situation to his favor, but as much of an unlikable jedi mace was, he had managed to find a way to defeat palpatine.
I actually like the part where you play devils advocate. I personally believe after watching this that it's actually a bit of both. I think he was matching Sidious with his Vapadd as muchas possible but He couldnt overcome him. But Sidious was also at a stalemate, so when he felt Anakin approaching, he threw it in his favour. Manipulating the fact that they were pretty much getting nowhere in the duel to push Anakin over the edge.
Exactly
Great video! Thank you for sharing your opinion on the subject. I have been wondering about a certain hypothetical that I would like to hear your take about. You have explained in the past that Mace Windu developed Vaapad with the approval of the Jedi Council & with the assistance of Sora Bulq. However what if Anoon Bondara had survived his encounter with Maul & Mace Windu had enlisted his help instead of Sora Bulq's?
“You’re arrogance blinds you Master Yoda” yoda was definitely arrogant not as bad as windu but he surely was.
And Palpatine was far more arrogant than either of them.
I don't think I've ever understood this claim that Mace Windu was arrogant.
Where is this coming form exactly?
@@dungeonguy88 watch clone wars, he’s just an asshole. He is jealous or suspicious of anakin the entire time, he was an asshole to dooku if you watch tales of the Jedi and in the movie he just is an arrogant asshole.
Yes he did. George Lucas said he did and thats what im sticking with! Not the stunt coordinator or any other muppet who says so.
He lost the blade fight... As intended.. Mace would never win a battle including force powers as well, like Sidious against Yoda..( wich Yoda actually won as well, collecting a full force lightning from Sidious with his bare hand, but got unlucky and blown away the wrong way and fell down 10 meters, getting hurt and guards showing up..) So yeah mace beat him in a LIGHT SABER fight, would never win in a real fight where Sidious wen't all out like against Yoda..
Thank you! Why isn't this known more among Star Wars fans?
Facts
100% facts!
Palpatine was enjoying himself & toying with the Jedi. ... Can't even see the other end of things. It was clear.
so hard to say because that was the thing which made Anakin feel like he could never return to the Jedi and he must kill them all.
What many people don't understand is that Vapaad do not protect against force power attacks but only draw upon the darkness to empower the wielder in combat. Lightning is not the only force power Palpatine had. He was advanced in all known force powers. He could have force push Mace away and force pull his lightsaber back. He could have force gripped Mace. Force crush him. Force drain him. There is no logic in the claim that Mace could ever beat Palpatine. Palpatine choosed to duel Mace instead of killing him with his force powers because he knew Anakin was on his way.
It was obviously a bait, that was made clear in the movie, if he dies he can't teach Anakin how to save Padme, if he got arrested by Windu he could just chain lightning when their lightsaber wasn't on and escape that way, and he owned the courts anyway so capture wasn't even a concern for him. It was timed to perfection that he was made to look like he was about to die and only Anakin could save him. Forcing Anakin to cross over the point of no return by killing a fellow Jedi. Clearly, Palpatine took a dive.
I thought that Anakin became the number 1 lightsaber dualist before his fall.
It’s my belief that Sidious was indeed controlling the situation and everything played out how he expected, although the one thing he didn’t expect was just how EFFECTIVE Mace Windu would be against him. I think that if the fight were to persist, with both opponents going all out, Mace Windu would have taken a complete victory
I 100% believe and agree with this for sure, although I also think it would be unrealistic or uncharacteristic(particularly at this point in time) for Sidious not to have multiple backup plans, including but not limited to.... just jumping out the window XD(hes on Coruscant... Not hard for him to survive or find protections, or call for backup... at which point, then what was Maces plan?)
@@thomasinefitzpatrick to me it seemed as though Anakin’s arrival was the backup plan; the turn of fate Sidious needed to happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sidious happened to arrange Anakin’s arrival at that exact moment, although it could have just as likely been a coincidence of the Force. Either way, this was the moment the Jedi truly fell
@@nickmillar999 That was probably one of many/several 'backup plans'.... so calling it a 'turn of fate' might be an exaggeration or mischaracterization. Additionally, it would only make sense that Sidious would be able to sense Anakin. He literally just revealed himself to Anakin. He could have hid. He knew Anakin was conflicted. The idea that Sidious didnt know Anakin was coming, but got disarmed EXACTLY when Anakin arrived.... :I
I do think Mace was stronger than Sidious had expected, and there might have even been a moment or two where he lost total control and was for a split second concerned or afraid(not because Mace could have killed him in that moment, but because he is so used to having total control, even being caught off guard at all is probably very unusual for him!)
That said, I dont think Sidious was ever in a situation where, had Anakin not arrived for instance, that Mace could have killed him or that he could not have escaped
Wow i've never seen Wave team up!
I can't speak on what the books depict but in the movie he clearly wins that fight and if you didn't people were doing an awful job acting
Another way to look at it was that Windu was a reverse hostage and it would not have been possible to have that happen if Anakin were easily deceived. That's why the 'mistake' happened so early in the fight. Mace won, yes, he did, but he was allowed to win. The duels are not so fair, I definitely think Sidious may have been unable to beat Mace after a certain point...but he also could have figured out a way to escape him. He didn't escape because he wanted to be caught so he could turn Anakin. It was risky, but he knew about the Tusken Raiders. Anakin should never have told him about that. It was what gave Sidious the information he needed to know Anakin would follow through on his heart's desire.
As a reverse hostage, if Sidious wanted him dead, he would have killed him already is the reasoning. He needed him alive for Anakin's conversion. Only once Anakin finally betrayed Windu(instead of simply disobeying him) was Windu's usefulness to the Dark Lord spent to the max. And Sidious wasted no time in getting rid of Windu once that moment came. If Anakin didn't betray Windu, then Sidious would have had to like jump out of the window or something like that to stay alive. I don't know if he planned for that contingency or not...but I'd like to think that he didn't. I think that would be a much more interesting argument.
By allowing Sidious to win the duel, he became the hostage that's about to die as seen by Anakin. But Anakin didn't realize that Sidious had foreseen Windu's death and spared him. Anakin thought Windu and the others wore Sidious down and beat him through attrition. But nothing could be further from the truth. The reason why it was believable at the time however was because Windu was fighting so aggressively, trying so hard to win. If Windu just chilled after Sidious failed to strike him down, then maybe, just maybe, Anakin wouldn't have fallen for the concept that Sidious was worn out by fighting 4 Jedi. Windu could have just let up and not taken the fight seriously. Windu was done with the Dark Lord of the Sith. But the Dark Lord wasn't done with him yet...and that's why Windu was a reverse hostage.
All this to say that yes Windu won, because Sidious let him win, but Sidious also cheated and stole the win from Windu by involving Anakin. Of course we can also say that Windu was cheating too since he brought 3 buddies to fight Sidious, and he still would have lost if not for Sidious going easy on him. And when you point out something like that it makes people think your entire argument is wrong. Because they can't handle a little personality flaw of someone they like. I remember lots of Jedi died fighting robots in one of those movies... guess whose fault that was... my bet goes to Windu.
Imagine how different the fighting vs Sidious could have been if instead of what they did, they recalled Yoda, had him 1v1 Sidious, and observed the fight. Then, if Yoda loses, they can presumably use the knowledge of their witnessing the fight to properly defeat Sidious. Not saying that this would have necessarily been possible to arrange, but it's not a stretch considering 4 Jedi showed up to arrest the man, what's the big deal in waiting for one more? Maybe let Anakin watch Yoda fight too, after he finally becomes a father I mean. Oh wait, they didn't know he was becoming a father... hehhehe...another example of Sidious possessing privileged information...they lost their boy a long time ago... it just wasn't formalized until that night when Sidious renamed him to Vader.
I would've loved to see Anakin/Vader vs Mace. Those two had a tension buildup throughout three movies without any kind of real confrontation or resolution.
I haven't delved into the lore too much, but I believe in one of your videos (Stupendous Wave) there is a point where Luke points out the weakness and failure of Sith combat. How the initial rush of emotions and hatred can allow a Sith to overcome a Jedi but that if the fight drags on those same emotions would result in the Sith making mistakes and giving the edge to the Jedi.
If this concept holds true, then Windu would most likely be the victor here. Vaapad would allow Windu to stay alive by feeding on Sidius's dark side energy along with his own. At which point all he needs to do is wait for a point where Sidius makes a mistake and then capatilize on it.
On a side note, I would like to clarify that I do not believe Windu is stronger in the force than Sidius. But Vaapad's ability to feed on the opponents fury creates a scenario where the more power Sidius unleashes against Windu, the more power Windu has to attack Sidius with.
Great video, love your work
19:25 - Also for Qui Gon!
In my headcanon, Palpatine could have ended the fight at any time but he needed Anakin to make a mistake to finally tip him over to the dark side. But, Palpatine was only hoping to prolong the duel until Anakin stepped in, or in the film he only pretended to lose. But, Windu legitimately used Vaapad to beat Palpatine in a stacked duel, or in the films, Windu used Vaapad to direct Palpatine's best attack back at him. In my headcanon, either way, Mace Windu exceeded Palpatine's expectations and caused a new unforeseen factor in Palpatine's plans. But, Palpatine risked it all on Anakin anyways, feeling that he had corrupted and swayed Anakin enough to rely on him.
I think something unique! When I watched it originally, I always thought Sidious knew it was at a STALEMATE,, he threw the fight knowing Anakin was there and recognized a golden opportunity
I'm surprised you didn't mention the force scream (or if you touched on it, it was brief). Mace was the only Jedi in the room who resisted that, so apparently his Vapaad has more utilization than just lightsaber dueling.
George Lucas said Windu legit defeated Palpatine. End of discussion.
A man of reason and culture I see.
GL didn't confirm anything. Watch it again.
Does this TH-camr end up thinking windu didn't win? If so he can't not be tooken seriously, What Lucas says is LAW.
@@tortureddesert3453 Sane and mature people get this.
no he didn't! end of discussion.
I personally believe it's a mix of both. Did Mace manage to overpower Sidious through his blade mastery and Vaapad? Yes, and this matches what Lucas said on the matter.
However... Does this mean Sidious was beaten? I don't think so. Against Yoda eventually he also lost his lightsaber, but the fight was far from over. Sidious wields tremendous force power and that's what he believes in: his use of a lightsaber is mainly to mock and match the jedi. This is were he manipulates Anakin, pretending to be weak after being disarmed... When he is not. He still had fight left in him.
100%
Yes!
Dude, if the author and creator states something about HIS story, then it is law not preference. Who cares about headcannon. This type of thing has become common place with fiction/ anime communities.
I find it mildly annoying. It's as if there is an opinion to be had when there isn't.
@@RevDrCCoonansr I feel you, man. However, I find it more concerning than annoying. Grown men not being able to accept reality is a serious sign of mental instability as far as I'm concerned.
@@arc7xangel897 You are aware that “cannon” and “canon” are two separate words with different spellings and meanings, correct? Is a “headcannon” a cannon that one wears upon their head? Or do you mean head canon, a.k.a. a fan interpreting things as they see it? And do you REALLY think that Lucas is bothered by things such as this? It’s a sign of how beloved the series is by so many that people interpret things in their own way, or that they even want to debate or ruminate upon it. You complain about “grown men not accepting reality,” but this ISN’T reality. It’s a fantasy story that’s open to interpretation by the reader/viewer, and that’s the beauty of FICTION. Which is the opposite of REALITY.
@@phantom0456 Seems like I strick a nerve. Only a hit dog hollers my boy🤣🤣
@@phantom0456 Lucas has ALWAYS made so much of this ambiguous so fans COULD argue over it and play with the toys to reenact scenes. Now it's video games and fan fiction, but that was his point. To make it as loveable by an audience as it could have been. He succeeded.
If Vapaad does translate into enpowering and reflecting dark side force techniques against your opponent then Mace couldve always ended up pulling a Grevious and crushing him had he tried falling back on force alone. Itd be cool to watch him force toss some large object towards him only for it to be thrown back at even greater speed. Or try to throw/push him and end up getting blasted back himself. Even darker he tries to choke him and ends up with his chest caved in like i mentioned with Grevious.
It's funny how both of you dismiss that Siddious won the duel. Siddious continues to live as where Windu is never seen again. When two enter a duel and only one leaves the one who leaves alive WINS.
Mace Windu became a sith himself after finding the #TDBank💳 card... He was given new hands after getting rescued b4 going splat on the turf😅... He was safe by #DarthTonder... 🌎💘💰
I think it’s kinda both ? Sidious knew he would lose to Windu and probably knew about Vaapad more than we know. This he knew the confrontation would draw Anakin into the senate chamber
Mace's skills and Palpatine's calculating nature are both factors in this fight since both are covered in the novelization as well as talked about by Lucas in his commentary. I think there's a chance Sidious held back at the very start (since he dazed all of the Jedi with his force howl and arguably could have blitzed Windu if he wanted to), but from that point on, there's really no clear evidence that Palpatine was holding back. The emphasis is all on Windu's skills in the moments leading up to him disarming Palpatine. However, not only do Palpatine's torrents of force lightning prove he was faking being weak on the ground, but Lucas himself also confirmed that he was pretending at that point. There are SO many layers to this fight and it would ultimately be too simple to credit only Windu or only Palpatine for how this fight played out from beginning to end.
I feel like palpatines force scream affected mace windu less so than the other three yet I believe it still affected him to some extent but targeted the other Jedi first which gave windu seconds worth of time to gain composure which windu would have won. However palps definitely threw the fight.
In order to think Palpatine threw the fight requires believing he wanted to be mutated to the point of death?
Mace was a more skilled lightsaber duelist, while it's been mentioned several times that Sidious "despised" the lightsaber and the Jedi reliance on them. Mace got the best of him.
Mace won. Palpatine probably could have won quickly, but he had fun playing with his food, while Mace was fighting for everything he knew and loved. So Mace gets the upper hand, Sidious can do nothing about it and most likely wouldve died if Anakin wasnt there
Yeah, things turned fast for Palpatine. Beyond what he planned for.
No one crawls away desperately on all fours because things are going according to plan.
In some way I find interesting how Palpatine says that he only use lightsaber to "mock the jedi". Some Sith really thought they were above the need for a lightsaber, with manipulation techniques, force lightning, seduction... Sith are arrogant and this is what makes them flawed and defeated in the end. Their own dark side strength can be seen as their greatest weakness, a wise Jedi knows how to use the arrogance of the Sith against them. It's also a psychological and mental war, not only lightsaber duels.
I think palpatine is edging towards Gary Sue levels of power. Personally it feels like he's traded master manipulation skills for omnipotence. Imo it's more interesting if he loses to windu and his years of manipulation and planting seeds in Anakins mind pays off in that moment rather than he just throws the fight because he already knew the outcome
Def not a Gary Sue, even if he was flatly omnipotent... I dont think you even understand at all what a Gary Sue is... Because of the length and depth of his character, regardless of his power level, he literally cannot be a Gary Sue.
He could be cornily overpowered(I dont think thats the case, but maybe in some of the expanded universe/legends stuff)
But the fact that you dont even know what that is yet make such claims.... says alot not only about you, but about the kinds of people who would say these things or agree with you
Don’t need to watch the video to form an opinion.
Short Answer: No, Mace didn’t win the fight.
Long Answer: While Mace was a hell of a lightsaber duelist, lore has firmly established that Sidious was perhaps the greatest lightsaber duelist ever-even though he absolutely hated dueling. He could have easily taken out Mace with little effort had he wanted to, but even during his duel, he was still after his greatest prize: Anakin.
He obviously sensed Anakin’s arrival to his office, as I’m sure that Anakin was radiating so many conflicting emotions that anyone not Force sensitive would have felt him arriving. So, instead of just killing Mace and being done with it, he decided to play up the guise of a harmless old man (which could have backfired as Anakin could have thought that the Dark Side was too weak to help him). But Anakin was still focused on the Plagueis story from earlier and Sidious manipulated the ensuing chaotic conversation in a way that finally made Anakin fall. After that, Sidious no longer had any need to keep up the guise of someone who was weak.
And the rest is history….
Love you Stu!
Defeat, perhaps, but his forceful exit out the window wasn't lethal by any means, given that the building where this fight took place was the domed building in front of the mushroom-shaped Senate complex.
Contingencies and plans within plans. Palpatine has set the situation up so that no matter who wins the duel, Palpatine comes out on top in the longer run.
I still like the thought of Sidious manipulating Windu and letting him win, it just seems like something he would do.
It makes sense to me. The key here is understand the answer to the questions, how would a jedi treat a defeated opponent? Would they kill them outright? or they abandon their high morals and principles because of their "righteous" cause?
I think mace windu did defeat palpatine but not bc of vapad. But because palpatine when that whole situation started was caught off guard. And mace windu only capitalized on it. Palpatine was disarmed and without a weapon. Falling back into his signature weapon of force lighting to only fail him. On for Anakin to essentially steal mace windus win basically
I want to know why mace windu couldn’t see that not taking anakin with him to arrest the emperor in the first place was a shatter point
Ultimately, I think that you have to follow what the characters' creator decided.
Personally, I think that Palpatine attempted to throw the fight to bait Anakin. But if not for Anakin, he would of lost to Mace. That Palpatine didn't just try to throw the fight, but left his life in Anakins hands.
Just because you are stronger doesn't mean you are better with a blade.
still would have loved to see sidious dual wield his sabers against the group
I dunno guys you even said that they duelled to a stalemate and Anikan's fear allowed Windu to disarm Sidious. However because Anikan was there and turning Anikan to the darkside was the ultimate goal Sidious used that to his favour.
To sum up Windu won the duel, but it doesn't matter because Sidious won because his plan came to fruition.
Yeah, okay... still going to hold to what I said, the move where Palpatine doesn't finish off Windu was not a mistake. For it to be a mistake, you would have to say that the guy that speedran killing 3 other Jedi didn't see the opening quickly enough to finish off the 4th guy. He's just not that kind of person that would make a mistake like that. It was intentionally allowing Windu to live so he could yoink that Anakin away from the Light Side.
Like you both said it's rare when subjects are left open ended whether it was purposefully or not. The creators made the scene and were done with it after that, they described what they themselves wanted to convey and that was it, but us fans see the scene as open ended and debate about it going either way until the end of time. That is an outstanding scene then.
Mace just had a highly unchecked sense of justice for a jedi to have. I feel a lot of fans just blanket this sense of justice that Mace has over the whole jedi and hate the jedi because they want peace for the universe. Everyone can't be a ruthless self centered powerful person in Star Wars.
I believe Sidius planed to be on that position, but probably not to lose that much or to be damaged and deformed as much, he underestimated Vapad, yet all was acording to plan