Question - At 3:56... wouldn't this setup be a shear test? Where you are pulling downwards on the wood causing a shear effect in the nail. Pulling the wood away from the wall would have shown withdraw. I understand the shear and withdraw theory and they are true, especially when using ties and setting structures... Structural screws are now easily found and compete with nails. On the flip side, drywall screws are basically the hardest screws around and have no shear strength. Oddly, I have seen these used in many many many other applications then drywall! One major benefit of nails over screws is speed! There is no comparison between a good nailer (human or gun) vs an impact driver/gun... nails are always faster! Especially when building on site. Sinkers, coated, ramsets and even duplex nails are very strong setters and nearly impossible to withdraw. I prefer the right nails over screws on any structural assembly... screws for furniture or non structurals... plus nails are generally less expensive! Good video and thumbs up for me
I have seen carpenters use a nail gun and run back down the line with structural screws at major joints to help make the whole wall almost indestructible.
Great video Ben. Too many backyard carpenters have built decks using deck screws structurally instead of nails or architectural screws. This was well presented as always. Thanks.
Simpson now makes a hanger screw,many builders have used acq screws for decks 8 screws per hanger is pretty strong not code mind you and sometimes in the boonies it's near impossible to find hot dipped galvanized hanger nails, that's the only one that will handle pressure treated lumber seen decks done with standard gold project screws that were twenty years old, the wood was rotted but the hangers were rock solid.
The setup at 4:40 is essentially a pure sheer strength test, hitting the end of a nail or screw thats half out just measures whether or not they bend, for instance, a nail bent to 90 degrees would have long since been seperated from the wood in a real world scenario
@Leopold Screws are faster in critical areas such as ''top plate to rafter''....where one long construction grade screw can replace those steel fixings and all the lots of small nails. And in some places you can put nails and screws.
I'm using Spax Fasteners, Spax is Made in The USA under the license trademark of Spax Germany. Good quality screws and Spax Screws are Heat Treated, they are mostly Torx Head, im using Spax HCR-X coated deck screws, and HCR-X coated lag screws and lag bolts for heavy duty carpentry applications, and they don't break, bends or snaps and they don't loose threads on the heads. I'm using Spax Fasteners for years. It never let me down. The only time that I'm gonna be using Framing Nailers on Framing only because Heat Treated and stainless steel Screws are expensive than a common type zinc coated screws.
They should totally discontinue phillips head screws. Myself here in "Merica" use torx head when possible. Unfortunately nails seem to pop when used for drywall or decks.
Phillips screws work really well when installed by machine; it is self-centering and when the proper torque is reached the bit can shift out of the recess. Drywall screws in a depth-setting drill or fasteners in an assembly line are two common applications.
I think Phillip's screws are decent not comparable to torx but I think that they need to discontinue the flat head screws all together and ban them nothing worse than taking out a old 3" flat head that will just ruin your day
Amen Philips and imperial system (inches, yards, gallons, WTF) are the worst inventions ever created.. and should be considered obsolete like a typewriter. It can do a job but there’s other ways to do the same thing faster and more efficiently.
@@swatisquantum I'm an Engineer and I'll give you metric makes far more sense for ALL things... EXCEPT weather (in the US anyway). Most of the US spends 95% of its time between 0 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit, whereas that would be -18C to 38C. That's 58 degrees of precision vs 100, and all of those 100 don't require a classifier (negative symbol). Celsius (or Kelvin) makes more sense for science, but Fahrenheit is a far more precise and natural way to describe everyday weather.
@@2023dr It's not about "easy to remember," it's about convenience/precision. If you're not a scientist, you only need to remember one scale where 95% of the numbers are conveniently between 0 and 100 degrees. Fahrenheit rocks for weather. I've never heard a good argument against it. I turn my thermostat down one degree sometimes. You turn it down 0.4 or something - that's irritating and unnecessary
I know screws are more brittle than nails, but I find it interesting that they don't allow screws for earthquake shear walls, when the forces are really similar to when you screwed the 2x4 to the wall. What I'm saying, is that you were putting a shear force on the screws similar to the shear in a shear wall. I hope I'm making some sense?
I love your videos! I may not be in Canadia but we have been using Robertson screws since the mid 70s to do electrical work in Washington. As a matter of fact, I still have my original Lila Robertson screwdriver from back in the 70s.
I don't think an installed screw will typically get bent to near 90 degrees like it does in the video with actual sheer force. Since it's hardened, the screw just breaks when bent. An actual sheer would be some sort of setup to keep it straight axially (some kind of support for the exposed end) then apply a radial force until it breaks. This force would be pretty high and of course this test is a little more complicated. But that doesn't discount the fact that the screw will fatigue and break a lot earlier than the soft nail. I like your thinking on how to use the nail's strength by smart reinforcement.
To be fair you can make screws out of softer material and they work fine, even without hardening steel they work fine. The hammer test is shock loading, it cant absorb that much force in a short space of time as it cant bend thus it cant dissipate the force over time. A good topic to learn more about it is to understand grain structures of steels after heat treating and also the youngs modulus. You can see the elastic range and the like. In my opinion a screw is better for objects that need to remain in place, a nail is great for temporary or areas where you need "give", as the nail will allow it some movement and if youre shock loading (but likely both wont fail safe but youd have a better chance with a nail to potentially minimise damage to things below)
@@DragonworksAnimatorsi have no idea what the heck you just wrote but either way I’m a mechanical engineer, its simple. Nails are great for quick manufacturing and minimal disturbance where the grip force of the material is enough for the application, it also aids in allowing movement in the joints. Screws which typically are hardened will be fairly brittle to shock loading, softening the screw can help with this but yes if you made it out of say aluminium or made it to drive into thick would it may bend. Theres a million different ways to do something but a nail is fine, a screw is fine, but a nail likely will work itself loose over time more so than a screwed joint (especially using some binding fluid)
Your test for withdraw strength at around 4:20 mark is actually another shear test. If you wanted to perform withdraw strength then you should have applied pressure outward instead of hanging on it (which puts a downward force and makes it a shear test). It also applies a moment load force as part of that shear test. Otherwise it was a good video for ppl to see who wouldn’t know.
😂 😂 haha on the murica bit lollllll Also agree with the way carpentry and how it makes you think outside the box. I come up with things I would never normally come up with. It’s awesome
ultimately if you dont want nails pulling out, use ring shank nails. Some ring shanks, if you use a prybar will rip the heads right off the nail shanks. The nails wont budge.
They have been a staple in Canada for 40 or 50 years, and used to be unheard of in the US until fairly recently... I have heard it was due to a patent on the screws which eventually led to the invention of the philips screws in the US?
@@jiml5837 Your correct that Philips was more popular prayer to Torx although Robertson has been around for at least 30 years. No idea way people don't like to use them. Anyway thank you for the reply. I enjoy your channel...
@@jiml5837 You are correct! Robertson licensed the screw to a British company that went bankrupt and sold the license for his screw to some random. Robertson almost went bankrupt buying back the rights to his own product. A few years later Henry Ford wanted to license the screw and Robertson said NO! if you want a Robertson screw you can buy it from me. The Robertson company retained exclusive manufacturing rights until the patent expired in the 60s. Henry Ford hired some hack named Phillips to make him a screw after being rejected by Robertson. I paraphrased a little but you get the gist.
great demonstrations. the first test is indeed an impact test for materials toughness, the energy it can absorb before breaking. the tested nail is much tougher because it deforms whilst the screw ruptured under the same stress/force load
The drywall behind you, is almost the exact situation I’m working in right now in my house. I’m eliminating my half bath and making it a laundry room, so I had to cut the drywall to do the plumbing and electrical. Right now I’m taping and finishing, but I’m kind of having a hard time. I keep getting bubbles/air pockets in the mud even on the fresh drywall side, about an hour after applying. Do you have any tips/tricks? I watched all of your videos religiously before taking on this project, but you make it look a lot easier than it is. Thanks for all of your informative content👍🏽
Screws are far and away the best thing to keep sheetrock in place. Even when sheetrock is properly hung "double nailed" it still doesn't have the holding power of screws.
Yeah, but nails are way far far far the best for houses framing so it’s equal so screws are not stronger than nails and nails are not stronger than screws.
@hlpgaming8910 Definitely not. Using screws for framing and drywall is the difference between using kerosene lamps and electric light bulbs. Doing the same job, but the latter is an innovation in modern building technology.
Grk screws for the win, but you pay for it. It sucks to be on a ladder and changeover bits between torx and #2 Phillips. Milwaukee makes a double ended bit with those types to solve that problem.
@Stephen That's down to an insufficient fastener schedule. More than two nails should have been used; A 'breaking in half' failure was the desired outcome being tested.
Had me fooled, lol but then I'm not a carpenter or an engineer. You meant well and had a little fun along the way. That is good enough for a like button push for me. Stay Blessed and Thanks for sharing your talent and video, Rodney
I'm Canadian and went into a Home Depot in Michigan and asked an associate in the tools section for a Robertson screwdriver. The guy looked at me like I was speaking a different language. Even after I tried to clarify that I was looking for a square head screwdriver, he seemed confused and just pointed vaguely towards the screwdriver section and said everything they had would be over there.
Some drywall hangers like coarse thread because they go in faster. Also my experience is Fine thread will screw into harder wood than coarse without breaking.
I am 45 years old and started using square drive screws when I was 16 in New Zealand, surely the rest of the world has caught up to little old NZ 😂😂😂 you were doing so well mate and then you mentioned "pounds" instead of kilograms 😜
One of the biggest factors of a screw joint's strength is from the friction created by the clamping force of the materials, which is much more than nails. This friction has to be overcome before the fastener will take the full load. I thought this would be easy to understand but I have yet to see a 'professional' builder on TH-cam that seems to even consider this.
Very informative thanks, I really thought that houses were built with nails because they are cheaper by the dozen compared to screws, now i know the real reason. As an electrician I still have to use screws for pretty much everything, can't be swinging a hammer unside of an electrical panel lol
A galvanized ring shank nail is an absolute beast. I love screws for convenience, but there are a lot of circumstances where nails are the better choice. Finish carpentry? Nail. Exterior siding? Nail. Exterior trim? Nail. Drywall? Screw.
I like using both.. sometimes when I’m putting purlins up I’ll sink two nails and come back and tag a screw or two over the eves just to give it that extra pull out straight I’d expect it needs when wind forces are trying to peal your roof off
I believe using thicker screws and more of them would compensate for their disadvantages. If you use really thick screws you won't get a problem with shearing.
So one thing you neglect to talk about is that the surface friction of two members screwed together adds to its structural capacity. The greater clamping strength of a screw can affect its holding power depending on the application. A nail will loosen over time as wood expands and contracts with temperature & moisture changes as well as vibration.
Nice reveal at the end - skateboarder! Are we going to see any Vancouver Skateboarding videos? Keep up the videos! I find them informative, helpful, and entertaining. Thanks!
I was watching your video and accidentally clicked to another video on another channel about the same subject. I was like no! I want to hear what the Vancouver carpenter has to say! And I clicked back! Lol Nice job
We, Americans, have square screws. As a matter of fact, that's what's used for cement board. Also, I always thought that it was not the nail or screw that was holding the weight, but the friction between the surfaces.
I still hand bang when I'm framing. If I still did it every day for new home construction though I'd probably buy the paslode. I hand banged my whole apprenticeship though and I'm only 29 so not everybody is using a nail gun;) Thanks for sharing. People who think screws are stronger will just say you're wrong and spew a bunch of engineering words they don't understand.
Right on, I've been framing for forty years and done many houses by hand with my trusty estwing,I bug the young guys telling them your not a carpenter until you've framed a house by hand,ps I now have a paslode framing nailer and a 16 gauge finishing nailer both gas and I do love them.
No screws are so less strong because they actually make nails that are even screw nails which are nail screws with nails that have threads. In fact they’re even stronger than screws.
Screws clamp the wood together which provides extra friction and shear strength. It's something nails cannot provide. So if using screws plus glue, it would be extremely strong.
You’re wrong, so wrong nails can handle more sheer strength why do people always think screws are stronger screws are not stronger than nails and nails are not stronger than screws it’s equal
Yes, nails are much more forgiving than sinker screws for something like an earthquake. However, driving them in halfway and striking with a hammer is not a test for strength. It only demonstrates that for plain carbon steels an increase in strength generally comes at the expense of ductility. Unless you are using them for coat hanngers, the only meaningful test are ones conducted on joints made with these items.
Okay, since Phillips head screws were dragged into the fray... The importance of the crosshead screw design lies in its self-centering property, useful on automated production lines that use powered screwdrivers. Henry F. Phillips' major contribution was in driving the crosshead concept forward to the point where it was adopted by screwmakers and automobile companies. The credited inventor of the Phillips screw was John P. Thompson who, in 1932, patented (#1,908,080) a recessed cruciform screw and in 1933, a screwdriver for it.After failing to interest manufacturers, Thompson sold his self-centering design to Phillips in 1935. Phillips formed the Phillips Screw Company in 1934. After refining the design (U.S. Patent #2,046,343, U.S. Patents #2,046,837 to 2,046,840) for the American Screw Company of Providence, Rhode Island, Phillips succeeded in bringing the design to industrial manufacturing and promoting its rapid adoption as a machine screw standard. One of the first customers was General Motors who used the innovative design in 1936 for its Cadillac assembly-lines. By 1940, 85% of U.S. screw manufacturers had a license for the design. Due to failing health, Phillips retired in 1945. He died in 1958. Class dismissed.
It is not really a shear test, it is a bend test. A real shear test would involve steadily increasing force where the base wood and the attached wood are tightly joined together by a screw driven down tightly.
Don't think so. Wood fibers will give way due to constant force from the nail. Wood will dry up, may even rot and become weaker, making the nail easier to come out. Even for screws, it's good idea to use pilot hole, add wood glue and them add the screw, this will make a strong bond, while pilot hole prevents splitting the wood.
Do you think that a good solution for someone wanting to build a very strong home would be to use nails (as asked by code in many areas) and screws together in the same wood?
I started my journey into Home Remodeling in the 80's when Square, maybe not officially Robertson, screws came out but they were specialty applications like pocket hole screws. But it seems like Torx has taken over except for stuff with really small heads like trim screws with Sq 1 heads. I also think some of the collated screw guns use square.
@@95thousandroses But I think why they sort of suddenly appeared was that they were parented and they only became popular once the patent expired in the 90's. Up until then square seemed to be the non cam out screw of choice.
@@chartle1 Robertson are a Canadian screw that why it's hard to find in America and instead of admiring it's a superior design and excepting it they went with torx instead,torx are good but not the simplicity of Robertson
@@chartle1 I've been looking for a square bit for a collated screw gun for a long time I don't think they exist. At least to me I'm a nobody, they may be available through an industrial supplier. They'll take away my Canadian passport if I'm caught with Phillips screws 😁😁😂
If you want to test shear stress, try cutting screw or nail using snip. What you are talking about is scientifically called toughness. When you stroke the screw with a hammer it is kind of Impact test, which is applying sudden load under certain circumstances. yes, you are right, brittle materials cannot absorb much of impact energy before broken. In practice the wood will fail before the screw. The main reason to use nails widely is they are much cheaper and faster to apply Maybe using nails with hangers ( metal on metal ) has some advantages due to the ductility. However screws are available in different materials with different properties such as stainless steel, ceramic coated ..etc
"In practice the wood will fail before the screw." I can assure you this is not the case. I had a garage in which the previous owner had installed a large shelf between two walls (5'x12'). It was screwed to the wall on three sides, and on the open side was supported by a 2x4 coming down from the ceiling. This part was over-engineered, as the vertical and horizontal members were bolted together by a thick, aluminum t-piece. I stored a couple of sets of tires up there, and some assorted other items. One day I pulled my car into the garage and saw the whole shelf had collapsed at the back and sides. All the screws had sheared off, and no impact force had caused it. They just broke under the strain over a period of years. The wood could have taken ten times the load that was actually on it. Note: these were common, wood screws. Obviously there such things as structural screws, but when most people talk about using screws for assembling wood structures, they're thinking of wood screws.
@@trevorlambert4226 You think if you used the same number of nails instead of screws, your structure would not have failed? I do not think so . Actually by code, nails are not used to take any load unless with hangers. they just fix lumber in the place, and the lumber which take the load . In case of shear load, the code requires using bolts rather than nails
@@HamidA-to8vy Nice moving of the goalposts there. I didn't say anything about nails. I only addressed your one comment about the wood failing before the screws, which is demonstrably false. Given how easy it is to break a screw just by driving it into the wood, it should be plainly obvious that they are not particularly strong. I've seen plenty of screws shear off in the real world, I've never seen wood fail unless it was due to rot.
@@trevorlambert4226 It is not politics debate, it is not sentimental subject for me. It is all about socialize , share opinion and participation in the channel. Thank for mentioning your example. I work in construction for long time, I see nails fail all the time, especially in formwork. I do not remember seeing broken screws. I am still saying nails have been used widely because they are easy,fast and cheap to use. screw has more shear strength and better than nail for most task. yes, the down side is It is more brittle and more costly , and time consuming.
Absolutely not because guess what nail guns like literally how fun you could just pump bum bum bum bum and it just shoot the nail like seriously it’s way more fun
Hey, watched nearly all your vids, great instruction and detail. Haven't seen anything on skimming an entire wall or ceiling, planning to do anything like that?
Well a frame should never flex enough anyway to snap a screw. If it does it's a pretty shitty built house lol. I vote screws over nails. Nails are only used because they are cheap and quick to fire in. House builders want to slap it all together as quick as possible. Time is money. Also the wood in a 100 year old house for example is much more dense and harder than today's modern stuff. Try to pull a nail out of and old house and you'll likely snap it. In today's softer crappy lumber I myself would choose screws if I'm building it myself. For one they won't back out and 2 you can remove if needed without tearing shit up. Put it this way what would bite better in a piece of foam board insulation nail or screw? That's today's lumber! I prefer torx heads by the way they dont strip out so easy. You can really drive them in quick. Zip zip zip bingidy bang done! I vote screws 👍
Ehhhhh not necessarily. A house built with screws wouldn't have its joinery loosen as much when subjected to frequent loading cycles. Take into account the sheer number of fasteners uses in one frame. If you applied a load that would break all of those fasteners, the wood would fail WAY before the fasteners would.
Hey Ben, good information in the video. Where I live the "bottom line" would hand the "prize" to the nail purely as a result of how quickly nails can be driven. You know "time equals money"....
The downside of nails is they pull out in an earthquake much more easily than properly rated framing screws when a building torques and flexes. Also, as a building ages and the wood dries/shrinks, nails hold less well than screws and can.
I'm a mechanical engineer... Your usage of shear strength is not quite right. I agree that nails are more ductile and may have better impact resistance, but I'm pretty sure that the shear strength of the nail is greater than that of the harder metal. To be really sure I would want to look up the material property.
you are testing one against it's benefit vs the others weakness. screws are stronger when pulled from the head but to stiff to be bent so they will break. while a nail will come free from a pull on the head but is soft enough to be bent and allow for some flex. same reason why houses are built with nails since the foundation will set and shift a bit. with screws it will all come down but with nails they will shift as needed.
You really really prove yourself wrong in this video like no other... You just said a few times that nails are better in a few ways but when you, yourself tested the ideas you got them upside down... Gosh kinda worthles video... You as a carpenter should know where's the gun noise comes from... They are some dwarfs in it that sneeze bullsh..t when they hear some of your explanations... And actually you are learning from others comments?? Do yourself a little study before making a video so others won't be laughing at you watching your explanations... So, all my respect to you and your great work, didn't wanted to be mean or disrespectful but sometimes a lil kick in the butt sends you 10 steps ahead. Great job! Make it better! You're young and have all the future ahead. :)
Thank you so much for doing these videos. I finally had the courage to tackle our soon to be Nursery. The only issue we have is the textured wall is horrible lots of highs and lows. How do you blend a textured wall? Or do you reccomend completely redoing the room?
So, you have proven that screws have better shear strength than nails. But once the load exceeds the ultimate strength, screws would snap, but nails would bend (ductility)
This test of screw vs. nail shear strength appears in numerous TH-cam videos and IMO it is bogus. The important question is would a wood structure built with nails perform better than a wood structure built with screws in a shear test of the structure. The fact that screws are generally more brittle than nails is not important information if the screws don't reach their ductile limit before the wood structure fails. And they certainly do not reach their ductile limit before the structure had failed completely. IF a wood stud frame build with nails were compared with a wood stud frame built with screws the wood wall built with screws t would provide much better resistance to shear forces while the wall has not failed. In modern construction with sheathing the issue is moot. The resistance to shear failure comes almost entirely from the sheathing so the better resistance of the wood wall built with screws to shear forces would be of little significance.What would be significant is that the nails are cheaper and much faster to install. So nails would be better but not because the structure would be stronger with nails. The structure would be stronger with screws.
I hate those square screws, mostly because you dont see them that often in Michigan, but you still see them often enough for it to be incredibly annoying....
Such a Canadian problem. Trying to put robertson screws in with a Phillips bit. Done it many time myself when either drywalling or installing foreign made materials with supplied screws. AHHHH! But I wouldn't trade the Robertson screw for anything.
The shear test you conducted is an inaccurate reflection of a screws true shear strength performance as designed in a fixing context. The test fails to include the higher surface friction a screw generates when fixing surfaces together. Your demonstration needs to test the shear performance of two pieces of wood joined together with different fixings as intended. The friction will make a big difference to shear performance. Hope this helps.
4:05 You are actually demonstrating shear strength here. And as in your earlier demonstration, the nail bent, rather than break. BTW, the term for "withdraw" strength is "tensile" strength.
Tensile strength and withdrawal are not the same. Withdrawal strength is based on the combination of the media into which the fastener is inserted to hold it and the media. For example a nail displaces and compresses fibres as it is driven in, and the tension in the fibres, the friction coefficient and depth of penetration all effect the ability of the nail to resist withdrawal. Different materials will have different effect and different formats for nails having exactly the same tensile strength may have different withdrawal resistance. For example common nails vs ring nails vs spiral and coated nails can all be selected with exactly the same tensile strength but have vastly different performance in withdrawal testing. Coatings on the nails that melt when driven, then harden glue it in place, they do not affect the tensile strength, but do aid in withdrawal resistance. Tensile strength refers only to the nails construction, and is not related to the media into which it is inserted or the interaction between the nail and media. So, a nail in drywall has extremely low withdrawal resistance, whereas in cement it is so high you might be limited by the tensile strength of the fastener. A screw in drywall, depending on thread pitch will have much higher withdrawal strength.
I love your videos, and I get that your examples were just to illustrate and not scientific, but still sometimes a little research is your friend! Especially with the variety of modern options it's not nearly so simple as just nail vs. screw and even with just those this wasn't entirely accurate.
Nails are stronger for framing, thats common sense. Who uses screws to frame? if your using screws to frame, then your hack period. Thats the bottom line. a framer never uses screws, he uses a framing gun. A drywall'er uses screws. know the difference between two different workers. regardless if you own a business or work for someone else or self employed.
Exactly why do people think that screws are always better? My gosh screws are equal to nails and nails are equal to screws. They both have pros and cons. No difference just just one thing is better than the other in different areas you’re right.
1) I hate square headed screws and most Phillips, love torx; 2) the shear test as shown may not be indicative of strength in the truest sense. A more accurate test would be when the examples are fully embedded. Love your videos though.
Robertson and square are often confused as the same, but they are different. Robertson screwdrivers are not only square, but they are slightly tapered so that the tip of the screwdriver is an ever so slightly larger square than the base of the screwdriver tip. (And similar with the screws) So with a proper Robertson, screw and screwdriver when you put the screw on the screwdriver, it takes some effort to pull it off. This is fantastic for overhead work, as you can do all of your work one handed (in case you need to hold on with the other hand or hold material in place etc.) The key is you need good quality REAL Robertson screws and screwdrivers and not the cheap square ones.
Thanks. I did not know that. I've never seen Robertson screws but I'd be interested to try them. Torx screws also have different brand qualities. I've found that big box torx screws are not even close to the quality of GRK screws and now I use them exclusively even though they cost more.
I wonder what the cost comparison would be just for materials on a house. Not to mention labor cost. Just wondering. I bet tha sucker would be there and like a brick though!
Guys, no framing us with nails. Oh my gosh screws are so weak for houses if you had a house bill screws that house would collapse in a storm probably in a 50 mph storm.
Having a lower modulus of elasticity does not mean that something is stronger. Nails might be stronger, but the test is actually testing the elasticity, not the strength.
Furthermore, isn't the hanging test when the board is on the wall testing shear, not withdrawal strength? Withdrawal strength would be the force pulling directly out, while we see that the shear strength for the screw is actually stronger based on your test. I'm not saying that screws would be better for a home (although I'd be interested to see it) but the terminology and logic that people generally use doesn't match reality. I appreciate the video though.
You do realize that screw have 3 times the shear strength as nail! There are screws that are code compliant for framing. Yea they are brittle but house built joints are designed in tension not shear.
Nope houses need a flex and all that so nails are way better why you stupid people thinking screws are better. Screws are not nearly as good as nails for houses houses are so much dirtier because and pretty much every way because because they do make screw nails, which are basically nails that you put in but they have small small threads that yes so screw nails are better for pretty much everything because some nails are.
Question - At 3:56... wouldn't this setup be a shear test? Where you are pulling downwards on the wood causing a shear effect in the nail. Pulling the wood away from the wall would have shown withdraw.
I understand the shear and withdraw theory and they are true, especially when using ties and setting structures... Structural screws are now easily found and compete with nails. On the flip side, drywall screws are basically the hardest screws around and have no shear strength. Oddly, I have seen these used in many many many other applications then drywall!
One major benefit of nails over screws is speed! There is no comparison between a good nailer (human or gun) vs an impact driver/gun... nails are always faster! Especially when building on site. Sinkers, coated, ramsets and even duplex nails are very strong setters and nearly impossible to withdraw. I prefer the right nails over screws on any structural assembly... screws for furniture or non structurals... plus nails are generally less expensive!
Good video and thumbs up for me
Simple answer is to use both of them together so that you can gain both strengths and both can offset the others weakness! If that's is possible!
I have seen carpenters use a nail gun and run back down the line with structural screws at major joints to help make the whole wall almost indestructible.
I plan on doing the same thing with our summer cabin.
Great video Ben. Too many backyard carpenters have built decks using deck screws structurally instead of nails or architectural screws. This was well presented as always. Thanks.
Simpson now makes a hanger screw,many builders have used acq screws for decks 8 screws per hanger is pretty strong not code mind you and sometimes in the boonies it's near impossible to find hot dipped galvanized hanger nails, that's the only one that will handle pressure treated lumber seen decks done with standard gold project screws that were twenty years old, the wood was rotted but the hangers were rock solid.
The setup at 4:40 is essentially a pure sheer strength test, hitting the end of a nail or screw thats half out just measures whether or not they bend, for instance, a nail bent to 90 degrees would have long since been seperated from the wood in a real world scenario
GRK and Simpson (strong tie) make screws with shear strength equal to framing nails. For example their #10's are equivalent to 16d in their charts.
Joey Jo-Jo Junior Shabadoo I’ve used the GRK’s, love them.
@Leopold
Screws are faster in critical areas such as ''top plate to rafter''....where one long construction grade screw can replace those steel fixings and all the lots of small nails.
And in some places you can put nails and screws.
I'm using Spax Fasteners, Spax is Made in The USA under the license trademark of Spax Germany. Good quality screws and Spax Screws are Heat Treated, they are mostly Torx Head, im using Spax HCR-X coated deck screws, and HCR-X coated lag screws and lag bolts for heavy duty carpentry applications, and they don't break, bends or snaps and they don't loose threads on the heads. I'm using Spax Fasteners for years. It never let me down. The only time that I'm gonna be using Framing Nailers on Framing only because Heat Treated and stainless steel Screws are expensive than a common type zinc coated screws.
GRK is only screws I use expensive but work every penny
Thanks for the video. You just helped me decide what to chose for the remainder of my camper build.
Great comparison Ben. That answers a lot of questions about screws and nails.
They should totally discontinue phillips head screws. Myself here in "Merica" use torx head when possible. Unfortunately nails seem to pop when used for drywall or decks.
Phillips screws work really well when installed by machine; it is self-centering and when the proper torque is reached the bit can shift out of the recess. Drywall screws in a depth-setting drill or fasteners in an assembly line are two common applications.
I think Phillip's screws are decent not comparable to torx but I think that they need to discontinue the flat head screws all together and ban them nothing worse than taking out a old 3" flat head that will just ruin your day
Amen
Philips and imperial system (inches, yards, gallons, WTF) are the worst inventions ever created.. and should be considered obsolete like a typewriter. It can do a job but there’s other ways to do the same thing faster and more efficiently.
@@swatisquantum I'm an Engineer and I'll give you metric makes far more sense for ALL things... EXCEPT weather (in the US anyway). Most of the US spends 95% of its time between 0 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit, whereas that would be -18C to 38C. That's 58 degrees of precision vs 100, and all of those 100 don't require a classifier (negative symbol).
Celsius (or Kelvin) makes more sense for science, but Fahrenheit is a far more precise and natural way to describe everyday weather.
@@2023dr It's not about "easy to remember," it's about convenience/precision. If you're not a scientist, you only need to remember one scale where 95% of the numbers are conveniently between 0 and 100 degrees. Fahrenheit rocks for weather. I've never heard a good argument against it.
I turn my thermostat down one degree sometimes. You turn it down 0.4 or something - that's irritating and unnecessary
Enjoy all your videos. You have a fantastic ability to teach. Thank you.
I know screws are more brittle than nails, but I find it interesting that they don't allow screws for earthquake shear walls, when the forces are really similar to when you screwed the 2x4 to the wall. What I'm saying, is that you were putting a shear force on the screws similar to the shear in a shear wall. I hope I'm making some sense?
Very good explanations and demonstrations! By the way, the reverb sound inside this building is priceless :)
I love your videos! I may not be in Canadia but we have been using Robertson screws since the mid 70s to do electrical work in Washington. As a matter of fact, I still have my original Lila Robertson screwdriver from back in the 70s.
I don't think an installed screw will typically get bent to near 90 degrees like it does in the video with actual sheer force. Since it's hardened, the screw just breaks when bent. An actual sheer would be some sort of setup to keep it straight axially (some kind of support for the exposed end) then apply a radial force until it breaks. This force would be pretty high and of course this test is a little more complicated. But that doesn't discount the fact that the screw will fatigue and break a lot earlier than the soft nail. I like your thinking on how to use the nail's strength by smart reinforcement.
Yup, you can use more screws or switch to thicker screws, they need to be adequate for the expected forces.
To be fair you can make screws out of softer material and they work fine, even without hardening steel they work fine.
The hammer test is shock loading, it cant absorb that much force in a short space of time as it cant bend thus it cant dissipate the force over time.
A good topic to learn more about it is to understand grain structures of steels after heat treating and also the youngs modulus. You can see the elastic range and the like.
In my opinion a screw is better for objects that need to remain in place, a nail is great for temporary or areas where you need "give", as the nail will allow it some movement and if youre shock loading (but likely both wont fail safe but youd have a better chance with a nail to potentially minimise damage to things below)
Absolutely not because screws if they’re too soft and you use a drill screw can start bending while putting it in place with a drill so you’re wrong
@@DragonworksAnimatorsi have no idea what the heck you just wrote but either way I’m a mechanical engineer, its simple.
Nails are great for quick manufacturing and minimal disturbance where the grip force of the material is enough for the application, it also aids in allowing movement in the joints.
Screws which typically are hardened will be fairly brittle to shock loading, softening the screw can help with this but yes if you made it out of say aluminium or made it to drive into thick would it may bend.
Theres a million different ways to do something but a nail is fine, a screw is fine, but a nail likely will work itself loose over time more so than a screwed joint (especially using some binding fluid)
Great video! You have a strong ability to communicate concepts in a very accessible way.
Loved this video. Straight to the point and easy to understand. Cheers!
Good demonstation of ductile versus hardened steel fastener materials.
Your test for withdraw strength at around 4:20 mark is actually another shear test. If you wanted to perform withdraw strength then you should have applied pressure outward instead of hanging on it (which puts a downward force and makes it a shear test). It also applies a moment load force as part of that shear test. Otherwise it was a good video for ppl to see who wouldn’t know.
You are likeable, and great at explaining things. I commend your channel, good sir :)
And you handsome, and tall, and canadian, and skate well, and are good father, and ....
😂 😂 haha on the murica bit lollllll
Also agree with the way carpentry and how it makes you think outside the box. I come up with things I would never normally come up with. It’s awesome
ultimately if you dont want nails pulling out, use ring shank nails. Some ring shanks, if you use a prybar will rip the heads right off the nail shanks. The nails wont budge.
Don't be a Richard, we have Robertson Screws here too and have had them for years and smart people use them...
They have been a staple in Canada for 40 or 50 years, and used to be unheard of in the US until fairly recently... I have heard it was due to a patent on the screws which eventually led to the invention of the philips screws in the US?
@@jiml5837 Your correct that Philips was more popular prayer to Torx although Robertson has been around for at least 30 years. No idea way people don't like to use them. Anyway thank you for the reply. I enjoy your channel...
@@jiml5837 You are correct! Robertson licensed the screw to a British company that went bankrupt and sold the license for his screw to some random. Robertson almost went bankrupt buying back the rights to his own product. A few years later Henry Ford wanted to license the screw and Robertson said NO! if you want a Robertson screw you can buy it from me. The Robertson company retained exclusive manufacturing rights until the patent expired in the 60s. Henry Ford hired some hack named Phillips to make him a screw after being rejected by Robertson. I paraphrased a little but you get the gist.
@@Nightman2152 cool!!! The things I learn because I made a little video🙂 thanks for sharing.
I have stopped using square drive screws because I have found that Torx drive heads are much less prone to stripping out.
great demonstrations. the first test is indeed an impact test for materials toughness, the energy it can absorb before breaking. the tested nail is much tougher because it deforms whilst the screw ruptured under the same stress/force load
Another great video thank you keep up the great work and the great videos I love watching them
The drywall behind you, is almost the exact situation I’m working in right now in my house. I’m eliminating my half bath and making it a laundry room, so I had to cut the drywall to do the plumbing and electrical. Right now I’m taping and finishing, but I’m kind of having a hard time. I keep getting bubbles/air pockets in the mud even on the fresh drywall side, about an hour after applying. Do you have any tips/tricks?
I watched all of your videos religiously before taking on this project, but you make it look a lot easier than it is. Thanks for all of your informative content👍🏽
Screws are far and away the best thing to keep sheetrock in place. Even when sheetrock is properly hung "double nailed" it still doesn't have the holding power of screws.
Yeah, but nails are way far far far the best for houses framing so it’s equal so screws are not stronger than nails and nails are not stronger than screws.
@hlpgaming8910
Definitely not. Using screws for framing and drywall is the difference between using kerosene lamps and electric light bulbs. Doing the same job, but the latter is an innovation in modern building technology.
Grk screws for the win, but you pay for it. It sucks to be on a ladder and changeover bits between torx and #2 Phillips. Milwaukee makes a double ended bit with those types to solve that problem.
VC, your last example was showing shear, not pull. The force was perpendicular to the fastener.
But it failed because of withdrawl. The nail did not shear.
You are confused about the terms involved in these examples.
@Stephen That's down to an insufficient fastener schedule. More than two nails should have been used; A 'breaking in half' failure was the desired outcome being tested.
Had me fooled, lol but then I'm not a carpenter or an engineer. You meant well and had a little fun along the way. That is good enough for a like button push for me. Stay Blessed and Thanks for sharing your talent and video, Rodney
I'm Canadian and went into a Home Depot in Michigan and asked an associate in the tools section for a Robertson screwdriver. The guy looked at me like I was speaking a different language. Even after I tried to clarify that I was looking for a square head screwdriver, he seemed confused and just pointed vaguely towards the screwdriver section and said everything they had would be over there.
Sounds about right lol service here isn’t the best
Some drywall hangers like coarse thread because they go in faster. Also my experience is Fine thread will screw into harder wood than coarse without breaking.
I am 45 years old and started using square drive screws when I was 16 in New Zealand, surely the rest of the world has caught up to little old NZ 😂😂😂 you were doing so well mate and then you mentioned "pounds" instead of kilograms 😜
One of the biggest factors of a screw joint's strength is from the friction created by the clamping force of the materials, which is much more than nails. This friction has to be overcome before the fastener will take the full load. I thought this would be easy to understand but I have yet to see a 'professional' builder on TH-cam that seems to even consider this.
hi brother i love your videos i learn a lot from you watching from algeria
Very informative thanks, I really thought that houses were built with nails because they are cheaper by the dozen compared to screws, now i know the real reason. As an electrician I still have to use screws for pretty much everything, can't be swinging a hammer unside of an electrical panel lol
I use screws often. Screws for blocking like you guys need is the obvious choice.
Screws also have the advantage of easier removal. And I change my mind often.
@@tomruth9487 good point. I did a little work as a scenic carpenter for commercials. We always used screws because everything had to come apart after.
Skateboarding lol. Here in ON it's snowmobiling on the lake. I envy your heating bills.
What he saves on heating he pays in housing prices😂
A galvanized ring shank nail is an absolute beast. I love screws for convenience, but there are a lot of circumstances where nails are the better choice. Finish carpentry? Nail. Exterior siding? Nail. Exterior trim? Nail. Drywall? Screw.
Great to see some carpentery videos from you! :)
+1 for screws if what you build you may need to take it apart some day down the road.
Props to Roberts! Wish it was the norm in the US!
I like using both.. sometimes when I’m putting purlins up I’ll sink two nails and come back and tag a screw or two over the eves just to give it that extra pull out straight I’d expect it needs when wind forces are trying to peal your roof off
I believe using thicker screws and more of them would compensate for their disadvantages. If you use really thick screws you won't get a problem with shearing.
very cool so how wound a house put together with nails vs screws do in a tornado winds at 110 MPH
Thank you for putting this video together
nice presentation.....practical and useful.
This guy nailed it.
Nail it nails get it😂
I prefer square head screws. They don't torque out of the head, and damage the head.
So one thing you neglect to talk about is that the surface friction of two members screwed together adds to its structural capacity. The greater clamping strength of a screw can affect its holding power depending on the application. A nail will loosen over time as wood expands and contracts with temperature & moisture changes as well as vibration.
Nice reveal at the end - skateboarder! Are we going to see any Vancouver Skateboarding videos? Keep up the videos! I find them informative, helpful, and entertaining. Thanks!
I was watching your video and accidentally clicked to another video on another channel about the same subject. I was like no! I want to hear what the Vancouver carpenter has to say! And I clicked back! Lol
Nice job
We, Americans, have square screws. As a matter of fact, that's what's used for cement board.
Also, I always thought that it was not the nail or screw that was holding the weight, but the friction between the surfaces.
I still hand bang when I'm framing. If I still did it every day for new home construction though I'd probably buy the paslode. I hand banged my whole apprenticeship though and I'm only 29 so not everybody is using a nail gun;)
Thanks for sharing. People who think screws are stronger will just say you're wrong and spew a bunch of engineering words they don't understand.
Right on, I've been framing for forty years and done many houses by hand with my trusty estwing,I bug the young guys telling them your not a carpenter until you've framed a house by hand,ps I now have a paslode framing nailer and a 16 gauge finishing nailer both gas and I do love them.
Most folks are probably familiar with pocket hole jigs, which all use Robertson screws.
Screws are way stronger doesn’t even need a comparison.
Wrong
No screws are so less strong because they actually make nails that are even screw nails which are nail screws with nails that have threads. In fact they’re even stronger than screws.
Screws clamp the wood together which provides extra friction and shear strength. It's something nails cannot provide.
So if using screws plus glue, it would be extremely strong.
You’re wrong, so wrong nails can handle more sheer strength why do people always think screws are stronger screws are not stronger than nails and nails are not stronger than screws it’s equal
square tips have been around here on the states for a lllloooong time. silly Canadians! 🤣
Yes, nails are much more forgiving than sinker screws for something like an earthquake. However, driving them in halfway and striking with a hammer is not a test for strength. It only demonstrates that for plain carbon steels an increase in strength generally comes at the expense of ductility. Unless you are using them for coat hanngers, the only meaningful test are ones conducted on joints made with these items.
Okay, since Phillips head screws were dragged into the fray...
The importance of the crosshead screw design lies in its self-centering property, useful on automated production lines that use powered screwdrivers. Henry F. Phillips' major contribution was in driving the crosshead concept forward to the point where it was adopted by screwmakers and automobile companies. The credited inventor of the Phillips screw was John P. Thompson who, in 1932, patented (#1,908,080) a recessed cruciform screw and in 1933, a screwdriver for it.After failing to interest manufacturers, Thompson sold his self-centering design to Phillips in 1935. Phillips formed the Phillips Screw Company in 1934. After refining the design (U.S. Patent #2,046,343, U.S. Patents #2,046,837 to 2,046,840) for the American Screw Company of Providence, Rhode Island, Phillips succeeded in bringing the design to industrial manufacturing and promoting its rapid adoption as a machine screw standard. One of the first customers was General Motors who used the innovative design in 1936 for its Cadillac assembly-lines. By 1940, 85% of U.S. screw manufacturers had a license for the design. Due to failing health, Phillips retired in 1945. He died in 1958.
Class dismissed.
It is not really a shear test, it is a bend test. A real shear test would involve steadily increasing force where the base wood and the attached wood are tightly joined together by a screw driven down tightly.
Over time the wood fibers that were pushed aside by the nail will gradually expand and grip that nail making it much harder to pull out.
Don't think so. Wood fibers will give way due to constant force from the nail. Wood will dry up, may even rot and become weaker, making the nail easier to come out.
Even for screws, it's good idea to use pilot hole, add wood glue and them add the screw, this will make a strong bond, while pilot hole prevents splitting the wood.
Good tips that was really good thank you very much it was a very helpful
Do you think that a good solution for someone wanting to build a very strong home would be to use nails (as asked by code in many areas) and screws together in the same wood?
I love the square Robertson screws. But they are so hard to find in the big-box srores. Almost everything available down here is Torx screws.
I started my journey into Home Remodeling in the 80's when Square, maybe not officially Robertson, screws came out but they were specialty applications like pocket hole screws. But it seems like Torx has taken over except for stuff with really small heads like trim screws with Sq 1 heads.
I also think some of the collated screw guns use square.
Torx are superior to square anyway. Fight me.
@@95thousandroses But I think why they sort of suddenly appeared was that they were parented and they only became popular once the patent expired in the 90's.
Up until then square seemed to be the non cam out screw of choice.
@@chartle1
Robertson are a Canadian screw that why it's hard to find in America and instead of admiring it's a superior design and excepting it they went with torx instead,torx are good but not the simplicity of Robertson
@@chartle1 I've been looking for a square bit for a collated screw gun for a long time I don't think they exist. At least to me I'm a nobody, they may be available through an industrial supplier. They'll take away my Canadian passport if I'm caught with Phillips screws 😁😁😂
If you want to test shear stress, try cutting screw or nail using snip. What you are talking about is scientifically called toughness. When you stroke the screw with a hammer it is kind of Impact test, which is applying sudden load under certain circumstances. yes, you are right, brittle materials cannot absorb much of impact energy before broken.
In practice the wood will fail before the screw.
The main reason to use nails widely is they are much cheaper and faster to apply
Maybe using nails with hangers ( metal on metal ) has some advantages due to the ductility. However screws are available in different materials with different properties such as stainless steel, ceramic coated ..etc
"In practice the wood will fail before the screw." I can assure you this is not the case. I had a garage in which the previous owner had installed a large shelf between two walls (5'x12'). It was screwed to the wall on three sides, and on the open side was supported by a 2x4 coming down from the ceiling. This part was over-engineered, as the vertical and horizontal members were bolted together by a thick, aluminum t-piece. I stored a couple of sets of tires up there, and some assorted other items. One day I pulled my car into the garage and saw the whole shelf had collapsed at the back and sides. All the screws had sheared off, and no impact force had caused it. They just broke under the strain over a period of years. The wood could have taken ten times the load that was actually on it. Note: these were common, wood screws. Obviously there such things as structural screws, but when most people talk about using screws for assembling wood structures, they're thinking of wood screws.
@@trevorlambert4226 You think if you used the same number of nails instead of screws, your structure would not have failed? I do not think so . Actually by code, nails are not used to take any load unless with hangers. they just fix lumber in the place, and the lumber which take the load . In case of shear load, the code requires using bolts rather than nails
@@HamidA-to8vy Nice moving of the goalposts there. I didn't say anything about nails. I only addressed your one comment about the wood failing before the screws, which is demonstrably false. Given how easy it is to break a screw just by driving it into the wood, it should be plainly obvious that they are not particularly strong. I've seen plenty of screws shear off in the real world, I've never seen wood fail unless it was due to rot.
@@trevorlambert4226 It is not politics debate, it is not sentimental subject for me. It is all about socialize , share opinion and participation in the channel. Thank for mentioning your example. I work in construction for long time, I see nails fail all the time, especially in formwork. I do not remember seeing broken screws. I am still saying nails have been used widely because they are easy,fast and cheap to use. screw has more shear strength and better than nail for most task. yes, the down side is It is more brittle and more costly , and time consuming.
Screwing is just more fun than nailing.
Absolutely not because guess what nail guns like literally how fun you could just pump bum bum bum bum and it just shoot the nail like seriously it’s way more fun
Hey, watched nearly all your vids, great instruction and detail. Haven't seen anything on skimming an entire wall or ceiling, planning to do anything like that?
Your 3rd test defeats your first test - the screw wins it when it comes to all construction applications!
I’m from Merica and I will admit that you Canadans bested us with the square head. It is way better than torx.
Well a frame should never flex enough anyway to snap a screw. If it does it's a pretty shitty built house lol. I vote screws over nails. Nails are only used because they are cheap and quick to fire in. House builders want to slap it all together as quick as possible. Time is money. Also the wood in a 100 year old house for example is much more dense and harder than today's modern stuff. Try to pull a nail out of and old house and you'll likely snap it. In today's softer crappy lumber I myself would choose screws if I'm building it myself. For one they won't back out and 2 you can remove if needed without tearing shit up. Put it this way what would bite better in a piece of foam board insulation nail or screw? That's today's lumber! I prefer torx heads by the way they dont strip out so easy. You can really drive them in quick. Zip zip zip bingidy bang done! I vote screws 👍
square head and star head screws are the bomb! Philips and flat head screws just feel dumb now
Ehhhhh not necessarily. A house built with screws wouldn't have its joinery loosen as much when subjected to frequent loading cycles. Take into account the sheer number of fasteners uses in one frame. If you applied a load that would break all of those fasteners, the wood would fail WAY before the fasteners would.
Hey Ben, good information in the video. Where I live the "bottom line" would hand the "prize" to the nail purely as a result of how quickly nails can be driven. You know "time equals money"....
Agreed. Screws take a lot longer.
This just in. We have Robertson screws too.
The downside of nails is they pull out in an earthquake much more easily than properly rated framing screws when a building torques and flexes. Also, as a building ages and the wood dries/shrinks, nails hold less well than screws and can.
Nope
Love your Robertson reference
I'm a mechanical engineer... Your usage of shear strength is not quite right. I agree that nails are more ductile and may have better impact resistance, but I'm pretty sure that the shear strength of the nail is greater than that of the harder metal. To be really sure I would want to look up the material property.
A hand mail would have less withdrawal strength, the red part of the paslode nail is a glue
you are testing one against it's benefit vs the others weakness. screws are stronger when pulled from the head but to stiff to be bent so they will break. while a nail will come free from a pull on the head but is soft enough to be bent and allow for some flex. same reason why houses are built with nails since the foundation will set and shift a bit. with screws it will all come down but with nails they will shift as needed.
You really really prove yourself wrong in this video like no other... You just said a few times that nails are better in a few ways but when you, yourself tested the ideas you got them upside down... Gosh kinda worthles video... You as a carpenter should know where's the gun noise comes from... They are some dwarfs in it that sneeze bullsh..t when they hear some of your explanations... And actually you are learning from others comments?? Do yourself a little study before making a video so others won't be laughing at you watching your explanations...
So, all my respect to you and your great work, didn't wanted to be mean or disrespectful but sometimes a lil kick in the butt sends you 10 steps ahead. Great job! Make it better! You're young and have all the future ahead. :)
Nails also have ductile strength allowing them to bend in sheer walls which is what you want in an earth quake.
Thank you so much for doing these videos. I finally had the courage to tackle our soon to be Nursery. The only issue we have is the textured wall is horrible lots of highs and lows. How do you blend a textured wall? Or do you reccomend completely redoing the room?
So, you have proven that screws have better shear strength than nails. But once the load exceeds the ultimate strength, screws would snap, but nails would bend (ductility)
This test of screw vs. nail shear strength appears in numerous TH-cam videos and IMO it is bogus. The important question is would a wood structure built with nails perform better than a wood structure built with screws in a shear test of the structure.
The fact that screws are generally more brittle than nails is not important information if the screws don't reach their ductile limit before the wood structure fails. And they certainly do not reach their ductile limit before the structure had failed completely.
IF a wood stud frame build with nails were compared with a wood stud frame built with screws the wood wall built with screws t would provide much better resistance to shear forces while the wall has not failed. In modern construction with sheathing the issue is moot. The resistance to shear failure comes almost entirely from the sheathing so the better resistance of the wood wall built with screws to shear forces would be of little significance.What would be significant is that the nails are cheaper and much faster to install. So nails would be better but not because the structure would be stronger with nails. The structure would be stronger with screws.
My experience with square heads (robertson) on a deck was terrible. Since then I’ve switched to star drive (torx)
Never had an issue with torx heads.
I imagine the largest reason framers/builders rarely use screws is time and cost.
Thanks Buddy
I hate those square screws, mostly because you dont see them that often in Michigan, but you still see them often enough for it to be incredibly annoying....
Such a Canadian problem. Trying to put robertson screws in with a Phillips bit. Done it many time myself when either drywalling or installing foreign made materials with supplied screws. AHHHH!
But I wouldn't trade the Robertson screw for anything.
The shear test you conducted is an inaccurate reflection of a screws true shear strength performance as designed in a fixing context.
The test fails to include the higher surface friction a screw generates when fixing surfaces together. Your demonstration needs to test the shear performance of two pieces of wood joined together with different fixings as intended. The friction will make a big difference to shear performance. Hope this helps.
4:05 You are actually demonstrating shear strength here. And as in your earlier demonstration, the nail bent, rather than break. BTW, the term for "withdraw" strength is "tensile" strength.
Tensile strength and withdrawal are not the same.
Withdrawal strength is based on the combination of the media into which the fastener is inserted to hold it and the media. For example a nail displaces and compresses fibres as it is driven in, and the tension in the fibres, the friction coefficient and depth of penetration all effect the ability of the nail to resist withdrawal. Different materials will have different effect and different formats for nails having exactly the same tensile strength may have different withdrawal resistance. For example common nails vs ring nails vs spiral and coated nails can all be selected with exactly the same tensile strength but have vastly different performance in withdrawal testing. Coatings on the nails that melt when driven, then harden glue it in place, they do not affect the tensile strength, but do aid in withdrawal resistance.
Tensile strength refers only to the nails construction, and is not related to the media into which it is inserted or the interaction between the nail and media.
So, a nail in drywall has extremely low withdrawal resistance, whereas in cement it is so high you might be limited by the tensile strength of the fastener.
A screw in drywall, depending on thread pitch will have much higher withdrawal strength.
We use " robertsons" more and more here. Much easier to screw than Phillips.
So basically, you need a larger gauge screw to equal a nail in shear.
Torx are the US standard for woke carpenters who are tired of Phillips.
No
We use high-tensile steel screws and never have one snap. Much faster and more thorough.
When you counter-lever (two screws), you test shear strength of your screws, not pulling out force. You should have pushed that 3x2...
Yes. That second withdraw test was actually a sheer test.
I love your videos, and I get that your examples were just to illustrate and not scientific, but still sometimes a little research is your friend! Especially with the variety of modern options it's not nearly so simple as just nail vs. screw and even with just those this wasn't entirely accurate.
Nails are stronger for framing, thats common sense. Who uses screws to frame? if your using screws to frame, then your hack period. Thats the bottom line. a framer never uses screws, he uses a framing gun. A drywall'er uses screws. know the difference between two different workers. regardless if you own a business or work for someone else or self employed.
Exactly why do people think that screws are always better? My gosh screws are equal to nails and nails are equal to screws. They both have pros and cons. No difference just just one thing is better than the other in different areas you’re right.
then there are code violation when they inspect the framing job.
@@DragonworksAnimators
1) I hate square headed screws and most Phillips, love torx; 2) the shear test as shown may not be indicative of strength in the truest sense. A more accurate test would be when the examples are fully embedded. Love your videos though.
Robertson and square are often confused as the same, but they are different. Robertson screwdrivers are not only square, but they are slightly tapered so that the tip of the screwdriver is an ever so slightly larger square than the base of the screwdriver tip. (And similar with the screws) So with a proper Robertson, screw and screwdriver when you put the screw on the screwdriver, it takes some effort to pull it off. This is fantastic for overhead work, as you can do all of your work one handed (in case you need to hold on with the other hand or hold material in place etc.) The key is you need good quality REAL Robertson screws and screwdrivers and not the cheap square ones.
Thanks. I did not know that. I've never seen Robertson screws but I'd be interested to try them. Torx screws also have different brand qualities. I've found that big box torx screws are not even close to the quality of GRK screws and now I use them exclusively even though they cost more.
Damn this was a cute video!! Love how you teach stuff
Frame everything with 3” torx screws. Much stronger for any purpose. Yes it will take longer but worth it.
I wonder what the cost comparison would be just for materials on a house. Not to mention labor cost. Just wondering. I bet tha sucker would be there and like a brick though!
Guys, no framing us with nails. Oh my gosh screws are so weak for houses if you had a house bill screws that house would collapse in a storm probably in a 50 mph storm.
Having a lower modulus of elasticity does not mean that something is stronger. Nails might be stronger, but the test is actually testing the elasticity, not the strength.
Furthermore, isn't the hanging test when the board is on the wall testing shear, not withdrawal strength? Withdrawal strength would be the force pulling directly out, while we see that the shear strength for the screw is actually stronger based on your test. I'm not saying that screws would be better for a home (although I'd be interested to see it) but the terminology and logic that people generally use doesn't match reality. I appreciate the video though.
You do realize that screw have 3 times the shear strength as nail! There are screws that are code compliant for framing. Yea they are brittle but house built joints are designed in tension not shear.
Nope houses need a flex and all that so nails are way better why you stupid people thinking screws are better. Screws are not nearly as good as nails for houses houses are so much dirtier because and pretty much every way because because they do make screw nails, which are basically nails that you put in but they have small small threads that yes so screw nails are better for pretty much everything because some nails are.