And then the poor service engineer sits on site trying to integrate customer requested changes in an industrial PC program. PLC: 15 minutes. PC: one week.
Finally, a breathe of reality from someone who doesn't write code from their beach front canopy in Tahiti. The world is so easy and utopian when you don't have to be present with the system your program controls.
Great video thanks, but i kind of missed the fact that industrial PCs can be programmed the same way as traditional PLCs with tools such as CoDeSys or TwinCat
I use your HPHMI videos as a guideline for all my HMI development at work (small-time gigs running on arduinos) and have your HPHMI webpages bookmarked on my work PC
I've been controlling a distiller using a PC and Labview; Output: Arduino Uno and relay module (Surprincingly very reliable combo). Inputs: Rs232 Weight Indicator, and RS485 temp controllers. No issues for the last 3 years. EMI control techniques is a MUST in this kind of system.
Yeah, it´s getting bigger and improving. Added some feedback inputs, safety features, watchdog devices, data logging, a nice Digital-twin type UI, remote control... works like a breeze. Its a nice learning curve! I've always thought automation means complexity and PLCs. Labview was my point of entry to the automation world programing, and looking foward to learn more.
@@johnt.8936From my understanding LabView is a data analyzer, not a controller. PLC's are not complex, definitely a lot more simple than Higher Language code that you probably use in your PC. You could literally build up to 50,000 sq ft. with your current set up since you are the original designer, but the day will come along where you not only will not be operating your baby, but rather HAVE to have someone else do it, to which they will have to learn "YOUR WAY". Never mind all the problems you WILL run into after the environment becomes too much for your central PC. I am sure you have taken all present and FUTURE steps, that you would normally have in place with a PLC based system, to defend against cyberattacks, right? Once again: glad you could make a profit from your small isolated production, may it last as long as it makes you happy.
I work with plcs everyday at my job and program on my personal projects using modern microcontrollers using c++ or python, both are awesome in their own ways your video really highlights that. It’s also worth pointing out from my own personal experience the absolute extreme difference in scalability between the two. Plcs are incredibly easy to iterate upon and although industrial pcs are getting better the only way to do it both securely and with the same speed is with an incredible amount of money. Personally I enjoy writing my code using higher level languages because it’s much more capable and shareable, but I think plcs will have their place in one shape or another for a long time to come.
Thanks for sharing your insights! It's interesting to hear about your work with PLCs and microcontrollers in C++ and Python. Your comment highlights the distinct advantages of each approach and the scalability differences. It's clear both have their roles moving forward.
capable - You are only as capable as your hardware allows you to be. You can have a program that allows you defy gravity, but if the controller can't do it, then what's the point? and shareable - what is the point of being able to speak with only words from the most academic dictionary if practically 90% of the population can not understand you?
I think of PLCs as being the "minions" monitoring things and alerting me of problems or automatically taking care of some problems. I see the PC as directing many minions. The problem is a "real time kernel". Unless Microware OS-9 makes a comeback and gets a GUI PLCs have the advantage of being "Real-Time" where as Windows does not have that capability and Linux does have it but it is not simple or reliable yet. In the 80s you u sed things like DOS you made your own custom basic or forth program in the old days to substitute for an OS.
Most PLCs ive come across use Pascal, as its an easy language to learn, its pretty straight forward and the easiest language ive come across, but it doesnt hold up as good against other languages, and i preferably would use C++
Industrial PC usually great working as a slave in PLC network, handling high rate calculating routines like machine vision, without bothering Master PLC and overloading local network.
Lots of machines die or are sitting idle for the sake of failed, proprietary HMI, which is really dumb when you consider that the most powerful/capable HMI ever created is in most people's pockets. I have been using Android devices (via Bluetooth) for all of my industrial controls for the past eleven years. Android tablet (or switch to a phone in an emergency) talking to a high performance microcontroller (low cost) and galvanically isolated I/O 👍 I also design my boards to use garden-variety, thru-hole components so that in-house techs stand a fighting chance of being able to repair them quickly and inexpensively.
" I have been using Android devices (via Bluetooth) for all of my industrial controls for the past eleven years " - Do you own the plant? If not, how are you getting permission from the owners to make such a change to operations?
Where is LINUX it's know OS, You speak about Using PCs as Controlers what about the Beckhoff its a best example of PLC on windows ? I don't want to sound mean, have Great day
Can you imagine a plant shutting down because windows is installing updates and needs to reboot ? I have been in the business of plc programming for 16 years and never have I gotten a request for an automation project running on a pc
Hi there. Thanks for your comments. As discussed in the video, each device has pros and cons. Dedicated IPCs are certainly becoming popular, as many of our other viewers have commented. As for a "regular" PC being used in an industrial application , refer to the reply from John T. below.
We just call them IPC’s. Never seen one used as a stand alone controller. Can be done with RIO (remote I/O) over ethernet IP? Our new complex machines that use have them are usually using them for Programs that run the software for all the camera systems we use on our machines.
So in short the benefit of an industrial PC is that it allows you to bypass requirements of IEC-61131? What would be the reasons for wanting to implement IEC-61131 then?
Hello @fitz83. Thanks for your comment. I’m not sure what you mean by bypassing the requirements of IEC-61131. As you know, IEC61131-3 defines 5 programming language standards for PLC control programs. Most new PLCs are capable of being programmed using all 5 of these languages using proprietary programs. Not everyone is capable of programming with these languages. With an IPC, other programming languages can be used in conjunction with the PC OS.
@@realpars Apologies for not being clearer, I should have said aims. Surely one of the benefits to IEC-61131 is to reduce potential errors that can occur in high level programming languages? As the stated aim for these PC is industrial control, is that not a concern?
@@realpars " With an IPC, other programming languages can be used in conjunction with the PC OS. ' - Yea, but how does that control anything in the field? What is the point of using PC language if it still needs to be translated over to a PLC language?
Hello @Edgar A Montilla. Thanks for your question. I’m not familiar all that with SoftLogix but from what I understand, it is a soft controller that works with a specific hardware controller built by Rockwell. Custom programs can be created using SoftLogix and used on the controller. The physical controller is still considered a PLC. I’d be interested to hear any feedback or comments from other readers.
Hi. Thanks for reaching out. I'm not exactly sure about your question. Generally speaking, PLCs do not have the huge amount of memory needed for GUI. Some PLC programming software supports web-based HMI whereby the HMI can be built using functions of the software. THe HMI itself is web-based.
There are two scenarios I’m thinking of. The first would be a high level SCADA type control, and the second would be right up in the equipment like a CNC mill. SCADA would (presumably) run on a desktop PC. I’m not sure what hardware runs the HMI for a CNC, but I’m guessing it’s an industrial PC or some other embedded processor which is not the PLC itself. I suppose to rephrase my question, it would be: what additional equipment is required to translate user input from an HMI into a signal the PLC can use to control machinery? Assuming, as you said, the HMI is running directly on the PLC itself. Maybe the PLC has an Ethernet jack that the HMI equipment can plug right in to?
Wooow what a miss. You mentioned Industrial Pc in automation industry but you didnt talk about Beckhoff. PC-based automation in the automation industry has evolved a lot more than you think. Plc-based systems are already demode. Especially as data holding, IOT and image processing issues spread in the industry, inflexible systems such as plc started to come to the end.
Hm I would disagree, it might be that the PLC relenquishes big data driven Tasks and holding to the PC, but for rather simple to medium complex systems, the usually good price and low maintenance cost of Plc should be a big win. About Image processing, Siemens experimented with a neural processing unit meant specifically for image processing tasks. Anyways not to downplay the PC, just that not every automation task needs these big cannons and the decently high barrier to entry.
No preference or "propaganda" intended. The list of Op Systems could go on for a very long time. As for Linux, we've got loads of youtube videos and several courses on linux-based software and systems. We've got 2 full courses on PLCnext Technology using PLCnext Engineer which is a Linux-based PLC programming software. We can provide links if you require. :)
I've been waiting for this video! Nicely done. Some more content on industrial PC's would be amazing!
Thank you very much for your support! We're happy to hear that.
And then the poor service engineer sits on site trying to integrate customer requested changes in an industrial PC program. PLC: 15 minutes. PC: one week.
Finally, a breathe of reality from someone who doesn't write code from their beach front canopy in Tahiti.
The world is so easy and utopian when you don't have to be present with the system your program controls.
Great video thanks, but i kind of missed the fact that industrial PCs can be programmed the same way as traditional PLCs with tools such as CoDeSys or TwinCat
So true!!!!!
I use your HPHMI videos as a guideline for all my HMI development at work (small-time gigs running on arduinos) and have your HPHMI webpages bookmarked on my work PC
Thank you very much! Happy to hear that our videos are so helpful to you.
I've been controlling a distiller using a PC and Labview; Output: Arduino Uno and relay module (Surprincingly very reliable combo). Inputs: Rs232 Weight Indicator, and RS485 temp controllers. No issues for the last 3 years. EMI control techniques is a MUST in this kind of system.
Small scale and isolated.
Congratulations on your come-up.
Yeah, it´s getting bigger and improving. Added some feedback inputs, safety features, watchdog devices, data logging, a nice Digital-twin type UI, remote control... works like a breeze. Its a nice learning curve! I've always thought automation means complexity and PLCs. Labview was my point of entry to the automation world programing, and looking foward to learn more.
@@johnt.8936From my understanding LabView is a data analyzer, not a controller.
PLC's are not complex, definitely a lot more simple than Higher Language code that you probably use in your PC.
You could literally build up to 50,000 sq ft. with your current set up since you are the original designer, but the day will come along where you not only will not be operating your baby, but rather HAVE to have someone else do it, to which they will have to learn "YOUR WAY". Never mind all the problems you WILL run into after the environment becomes too much for your central PC.
I am sure you have taken all present and FUTURE steps, that you would normally have in place with a PLC based system, to defend against cyberattacks, right?
Once again: glad you could make a profit from your small isolated production, may it last as long as it makes you happy.
Thank you for supporting automation engineers
You're very welcome!
I work with plcs everyday at my job and program on my personal projects using modern microcontrollers using c++ or python, both are awesome in their own ways your video really highlights that. It’s also worth pointing out from my own personal experience the absolute extreme difference in scalability between the two. Plcs are incredibly easy to iterate upon and although industrial pcs are getting better the only way to do it both securely and with the same speed is with an incredible amount of money. Personally I enjoy writing my code using higher level languages because it’s much more capable and shareable, but I think plcs will have their place in one shape or another for a long time to come.
Thanks for sharing your insights! It's interesting to hear about your work with PLCs and microcontrollers in C++ and Python. Your comment highlights the distinct advantages of each approach and the scalability differences. It's clear both have their roles moving forward.
capable
- You are only as capable as your hardware allows you to be. You can have a program that allows you defy gravity, but if the controller can't do it, then what's the point?
and shareable
- what is the point of being able to speak with only words from the most academic dictionary if practically 90% of the population can not understand you?
I always appreciate how much you interact with your audience through the TH-cam comments section!
What a kind comment! Thank you for sharing that, we love that interaction as well!
I think of PLCs as being the "minions" monitoring things and alerting me of problems or automatically taking care of some problems. I see the PC as directing many minions.
The problem is a "real time kernel". Unless Microware OS-9 makes a comeback and gets a GUI PLCs have the advantage of being "Real-Time" where as Windows does not have that capability and Linux does have it but it is not simple or reliable yet. In the 80s you u sed things like DOS you made your own custom basic or forth program in the old days to substitute for an OS.
Most PLCs ive come across use Pascal, as its an easy language to learn, its pretty straight forward and the easiest language ive come across, but it doesnt hold up as good against other languages, and i preferably would use C++
I built PLCs for a living and always wondered this
Great to hear that we could clear that up for you :) Happy learning
Window pc seem to have more issue then all plc I have worked on. I personally prefer PLCs versus industrial PC.
Very well said. PLCs and SCADA for monitoring are better than C++ logic
Industrial PC usually great working as a slave in PLC network, handling high rate calculating routines like machine vision, without bothering Master PLC and overloading local network.
Thanks for sharing this insight!
Can you make a video on industrial pc expansion modules and how it's done?
Thanks for your topic suggestion, I will happily go ahead and share your suggestion with our course developers.
I am just wondering, why the most popular operating system - Linux is not mentioned in a video???
Hi There. Right you are! Please see our replies to CancerSenpai and Jaroslav Sukenik below.
Beckhoff comes to mind
Lots of machines die or are sitting idle for the sake of failed, proprietary HMI, which is really dumb when you consider that the most powerful/capable HMI ever created is in most people's pockets. I have been using Android devices (via Bluetooth) for all of my industrial controls for the past eleven years. Android tablet (or switch to a phone in an emergency) talking to a high performance microcontroller (low cost) and galvanically isolated I/O 👍
I also design my boards to use garden-variety, thru-hole components so that in-house techs stand a fighting chance of being able to repair them quickly and inexpensively.
How do you do this?
@@steve5nash Bluetooth.
" I have been using Android devices (via Bluetooth) for all of my industrial controls for the past eleven years "
- Do you own the plant?
If not, how are you getting permission from the owners to make such a change to operations?
Where is LINUX it's know OS, You speak about Using PCs as Controlers what about the Beckhoff its a best example of PLC on windows ?
I don't want to sound mean, have Great day
Hi....See our reply to Jaroslav Sukenik below please.
Can you imagine a plant shutting down because windows is installing updates and needs to reboot ?
I have been in the business of plc programming for 16 years and never have I gotten a request for an automation project running on a pc
Hi there. Thanks for your comments. As discussed in the video, each device has pros and cons. Dedicated IPCs are certainly becoming popular, as many of our other viewers have commented. As for a "regular" PC being used in an industrial application , refer to the reply from John T. below.
@@realpars" IPCs are certainly becoming popular "
- Yea, because the upcoming generation's are practically useless unless you give them a PC to use.
I prefer PLC to PC😂
Thank you !
You're very welcome!
We just call them IPC’s. Never seen one used as a stand alone controller. Can be done with RIO (remote I/O) over ethernet IP? Our new complex machines that use have them are usually using them for Programs that run the software for all the camera systems we use on our machines.
So in short the benefit of an industrial PC is that it allows you to bypass requirements of IEC-61131? What would be the reasons for wanting to implement IEC-61131 then?
Hello @fitz83. Thanks for your comment. I’m not sure what you mean by bypassing the requirements of IEC-61131. As you know, IEC61131-3 defines 5 programming language standards for PLC control programs. Most new PLCs are capable of being programmed using all 5 of these languages using proprietary programs. Not everyone is capable of programming with these languages. With an IPC, other programming languages can be used in conjunction with the PC OS.
@@realpars Apologies for not being clearer, I should have said aims. Surely one of the benefits to IEC-61131 is to reduce potential errors that can occur in high level programming languages? As the stated aim for these PC is industrial control, is that not a concern?
@@realpars " With an IPC, other programming languages can be used in conjunction with the PC OS. '
- Yea, but how does that control anything in the field?
What is the point of using PC language if it still needs to be translated over to a PLC language?
What about Allen-Bradley Softlogix?
Hello @Edgar A Montilla. Thanks for your question. I’m not familiar all that with SoftLogix but from what I understand, it is a soft controller that works with a specific hardware controller built by Rockwell. Custom programs can be created using SoftLogix and used on the controller.
The physical controller is still considered a PLC. I’d be interested to hear any feedback or comments from other readers.
How to buy Allen Bradley PLC?
PC Master Race!
Do PLC programs accept user input for a GUI well?
Hi. Thanks for reaching out. I'm not exactly sure about your question. Generally speaking, PLCs do not have the huge amount of memory needed for GUI. Some PLC programming software supports web-based HMI whereby the HMI can be built using functions of the software. THe HMI itself is web-based.
There are two scenarios I’m thinking of. The first would be a high level SCADA type control, and the second would be right up in the equipment like a CNC mill.
SCADA would (presumably) run on a desktop PC. I’m not sure what hardware runs the HMI for a CNC, but I’m guessing it’s an industrial PC or some other embedded processor which is not the PLC itself.
I suppose to rephrase my question, it would be: what additional equipment is required to translate user input from an HMI into a signal the PLC can use to control machinery? Assuming, as you said, the HMI is running directly on the PLC itself.
Maybe the PLC has an Ethernet jack that the HMI equipment can plug right in to?
I thought that the main difference between PCs and PLCs were the I/O or input-output systems 🧐
Wooow what a miss. You mentioned Industrial Pc in automation industry but you didnt talk about Beckhoff. PC-based automation in the automation industry has evolved a lot more than you think. Plc-based systems are already demode. Especially as data holding, IOT and image processing issues spread in the industry, inflexible systems such as plc started to come to the end.
Hm I would disagree, it might be that the PLC relenquishes big data driven Tasks and holding to the PC, but for rather simple to medium complex systems, the usually good price and low maintenance cost of Plc should be a big win. About Image processing, Siemens experimented with a neural processing unit meant specifically for image processing tasks.
Anyways not to downplay the PC, just that not every automation task needs these big cannons and the decently high barrier to entry.
Hi @ICM. Thanks for your comments. Yes indeed, Beckoff is a major player in the Industrial PC world.
Mention Chrome OS and not Linux? What kind of propaganda is that?
😂😂😂
No preference or "propaganda" intended. The list of Op Systems could go on for a very long time. As for Linux, we've got loads of youtube videos and several courses on linux-based software and systems. We've got 2 full courses on PLCnext Technology using PLCnext Engineer which is a Linux-based PLC programming software. We can provide links if you require. :)
@@realpars " PLCnext Technology "
- This is a misleading solution to consider at the moment, since stock for Phoenix Contact is laughable, at best.
Heck yeah
This is a great
Thank you!
🔥🔥🔥
like
Me , a young plc/dev enthusiast : lets rewrite everything in rust so it runs blazingly fast 🫠
ChatGPT will have you going back to school in 5 years; thanks be to instant gratificationalism.
Thank you!
You're very welcome!