"Smashbeef" looks like an absolute treasure and a beautiful soul. I would read every comic ever written about that good beef boi and his very fashionable pouch shoes.
Make him like Scorpia in the new She-Ra series: tough, intimidating exterior, absolute marshmallow on the inside. He keeps tissues in the pouches because he can't even watch jewelry commercials without getting emotional.
I like Stan trying to get Rob and Todd to think about the characterization part of their "design" and they're just ignoring him like two kids playing with Legos.
Honestly, I can hardly blame the guys. If I got paid to zone out like that and just kinda have fun, I probably would. ... Seriously someone hire me, I'm just as good at writing comics and making characters as Rob Liefeld, I just need to get better at embiggening their shoulders, I'll learn on the job I'm sure!
I really feel for stan. as a writer myself I often find it annoying seeing people who clearly don't care about their art succeeding, seeing them put on such a pedestal as to be on a show like that yet still being unable to think of an actually motive or to even think up an interesting quirk must be infuriating.
@@alyssinclair8598 I know how you feel. As an aspiring writer trying so hard to get everything right; the character arcs, the worldbuilding, etc., it is saddening to see mediocre or bad art get put on a pedestal. If I was given a name like "Overkill" to work with, my immediate thought would be "Overkill? What would fit the character... how would I best write a character that is literally too much?" And I would probably think something along the lines of someone absurdly strong, but break every bone in their body as recoil or something like that. I would also make it that, personality-wise, they also try too hard and come across as too intense, and it would be treated as an actual issue that the character needs to work through.
Thank you! I'm glad someone else acknowledges, when the Joker says "Why aren't you laughing?" its a really sad moment where hes taken back. In the animated version he feels like hes saying the lines for no reason. Its always good to hear from people who really understand the source material.
I feel almost like they just got Mark Hamill to record whatever he wanted and made the movie based around that. He said he would only do the Joker again if it was for the Killing Joke, so he did his take on the Joker and didn't really stop to consider if it fit the version we see in KJ.
Yeah, I don't think anyone wants to admit it, but Mark Hamill seemed pretty off on a lot of his delivery. Maybe it was bad direction, its hard to tell.
it's always hard to tell with acting though whether the problem's an actor issue or a director issue... i mean, i like to think it's mostly a direction problem because Hamil's done very well in the job and clearly the director is bad but this was real bad, it's possible it could have been a team effort
Thing that still gets me: surely if you wanted to bump up the Killing Joke to theatrical running time and give Batgirl more to do, you could just.....tell the story of Barbara recovering and learning to cope with her disability.
It's like they wanted to skate by the problematic "rape-as-drama" thing by turning Barbara into the focus/protagonist of the story. But she still really isn't, and the whole thing just comes across as stilted, awkward, and thematically muddled.
I’d have there also be midpoint drama scene with her in it that has her go through a serious mental breakdown and get blackmailed into trying to kill batman so the commissioner will finally be released, with it being revealed that she was forced to watch the commissioners torture for hours. This would tie her into the whole “one bad day” theme, with joker using her moment of weakness as proof of his beliefs. It would make her role in the plot honestly much more interesting, and add to the plot rather than distract from it. Like I feel like between my thing and your thing, the story could actually be feature length without writing in bullshit about batman fucking batgirl.
They couldn't do that. THAT would be a good story, and we can't have that. Also then they wouldn't be able to ship the most problematic Bat-ship in the history of the characters, and they REALLY wanted Barbara Gordon and Batman to bang. Just like in Batman Begins.
I dunno, in Watchmen he brutally deconstructs superheroes and does not put them back together again at the end or justify their existence. I think he really wanted comics to tell stories about more than superheroes. He didn't expect the imitations that came from his influence.
@@MegaLickitung He further wrote superhero comics for the next 2 decades, even though at least he tried later to pretend that they're pulp heroes, which is different than regular superheroes because reasons. He was always an edgelord hack that ended his lifelong carreer with comic books about fish rape and Alice in wonderland pedo fantasies.
@@kthy0056 Rape is certainly present in most of his books, though I've never read a story of his in which it was used for titillation. Rape just gets a really strong reaction, it's not necessarily worse than depicting torture and murder in novels. When you read his books he's clearly against sexism, rascism, fascism and homophobia (all this is present in V for Vendetta alone) and was voicing that opinion in the 80's. I don't agree with all of Moore's political opinions and his open attitude to sex is different to most people, but he's not a shithead like other comics writers we could mention (cough Frank Miller cough cough).
and stan lee going "what makes him different to tough guys like wolverine" That's an awesome question. I'd think for a secound. Yea how is he different. Ok How about he gets to excited when fighting has to much and enjoys himself to much. And the team get anoying with him and have to try and get to turn it down a bit?
OMG the way stan lee is passive aggressively asking if this design is communicating anything unique or human about his personality? and ligntfeild is like "umm idk, what do you mean?"
This was an incredible analysis, but in my opinion the worst part of this movie is how the Batgirl prologue changes Bruce's motivations from "Joker hurt my friend, my student, my surrogate daughter" to "Joker hurt my friend with benefits, my fucktoy, my surrogate daughter". The dynamic of their relationship and the emotional context for Bruce's turmoil is fundamentally altered and made so much more shallow by the added prologue.
I would disagree with fucktoy. She initiated, and its suppose to only be 1 time. Also, it was mentioned in Batman beyond her and bruce had an intimate relationship. I just think this was the wrong movie and the wrong Batverse to include this. She doesn't become oracle in that universe. So i agree with that part of the prologue being out of place.
Was I the only one ANNOYED by the fact that basically every female shown in this movie was voiced by Tara Strong? Don’t get me wrong, I love her but..why? It takes away from the main character she’s voicing when you start hearing background characters voiced by her and even the Joker’s female lackies. How tight is their budget??
This happens a lot with shows. It's like they paid so much for tara strong that they couldn't get anyone else. Samurai Jack has this problem with Strong voicing 12 separate characters with a few being major characters. Even if for one episode.
@@planetslime To be fair, OverKill would be a great name for a joke/ one time use villain if the intent was specifically to impose that sort of "beefy shoulder pad man" idea in the mind of a hero. Maybe some teenage supervillain wannabe, fresh out of designing some crazy automaton (colored black and red obvs) capable of mass destruction, who picked the name because he's a teenager and his sense of artistic taste hasn't developed yet
Stan Lee saw the issue, and was like "I'm going to throw it in this guy's face on broadcast television just to see if I can humiliate him into getting it.
@Shin Shaman "At least Overkill sounds menacing and cool." I mean, maybe if your taste is mid-2000s Deviantart OCs and all the Grimderpiest parts of WH40K.
Can you imagine if Gordon went out of his way to help Harvey get his coin back to symbolize his dormant respect for his old friend and maybe later on show him feeling a little more at peace thanks to Gordon's help to maybe show that sometimes a good day can help someone feel better again? They could have built upon their story but instead they watered it down
I've rewatched this a few times and _every_ time, I practically say, "come on, Jim, please just give him his damn coin back," out loud. He literally can't function _at all_ without it.
And Todd McFarlane is like... "You know what the best part of my day is? For about ten seconds, from when I pull up to the curb when I get to your door. Cause I think maybe I'll get up there and I'll knock on the door and you won't be there. No goodbye, no see you later no nothing. Just left. I don't know much, but I know that."
5:07 Stan: "How would you say that his personality would be different from all our other tough guys, like Wolverine and all the others?" Rob: "Well, see, he's -" Stan: "And Cable." Rob: "..."
I honestly felt kind of bad for him. I won't speak to anything other than the fact it must have been annoying having Stan right over his shoulders pressuring him.
@@vetreas366 Granted him instantly jumping to "literally just Cable" is very mockable, but in the situation he's in, drawing in real time on a show while his boss is asking him to write lore on the spot for a brand new character, I see why it wasn't the most imaginative thing ever.
@@vetreas366 the actual process for creating characters needs at least a few hours of pre writing beforehand on the universe they’re in (if not already established) character traits and investigation into what kinds of clothes a character could wear. I know you probably think the artist doesn’t do any of that, but I’d like to point out they likely didn’t tell him to prep beforehand and write up a character; the way he talks makes it sound like he’s doing this on the spot. Speaking from personal experience, making characters out of nothing is hell and you usually default to something you like or something you usually draw.
I fully agree that 30 minutes for a good/finished character and world is too little. However, 30 minutes to do a little brainstorming, sketches, explaining the things you may want to consider when creating a character and finishing at a rough idea of what a character could be should arguably doable. Especially since most Superhero comics are set in vaguely present day or slightly in the past America. Things like considering background, powers and the implications of them, how you figure out outfits, what kind of threats they'd be up against and such. "Okay, so one thing you have to consider eventually is the background of a character, their age, the society they grew up in. So, let's say superheroes are a known thing, it's normal that there are some, but they're not common enough that people expect to know one, much less become one themselves...So this guy was in college when he first discovered that he could teleport, yea, lots of potential for drama there. He practiced in secret for a few months and...IDK, let's shelf the "Why is he a superhero" bit for now, sometimes you just gotta let things settle and figure out other stuff to get the right idea. " So the main thing he's concerned with is...let's say there are some sort of biological threats, zombies, mutated giant frogs and such, maybe sprinkle in a few Vampires..." "Now teleportation could be used as a weapon, but usually that's be kinda lethal, so let's go with him learning some sort of normal combat skills, give him a weapon; let's go with easy to procure, maybe some length of steel or a bat. Maybe ease off on the super spandex in the beginning, let's figure out something a little more cobbled together. Maybe make it a plot point for him to get in touch with others, get access to better tech later on, but in the beginning we might be talking scarf, sunglasses and a sturdy jacket."
I had my mom listen to this video in the car because it's amazing, and we ended up pausing it partway through to discuss what kind of character we'd come up with if given the name "Overkill". If memory serves, we came up with a stiff, overly organized/pristine businessman. Basically like the extreme of the skinny nerd type, who's power wasn't in how hard they could punch, but how thoroughly they did... whatever. Ruining your reputation, getting rid of a problematic witness, etc. would be done far past the point of "good enough" or "job completed". And he definitely wouldn't have shoulder pads. Unless they were in the business suit or something, idk.
Icewine Rose your mom sounds awesome. Glad you guys have such a wholesome relationship. Truly this is goals haha. Also your overkill actually sounds really interesting. I’ve always wanted more intellectually powerful heroes like the one you came up with.
i had an idea of a tiny girl or a lanky guy w/ destructive powers who actually dont want to hurt anyone but one time accidentally demolished their pursuers (i dunno some evil scientists maybe) too much and now theyre called overkill. they dont like it at all but it keeps people at bay, which is both bad and good, good becaus they dont want fighting, bad because they want friends :(
Wow. Rob Liefeld looks a lot like Matt Damon in that Overkill footage. Come to think of it, I've never seen the two of them in the same room before either. Coincidence? Yes.
Especially if you frame Damon like Colin Quinn did: "You have the two best friends, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, you know, they wrote the movie together, Good Will Hunting, but you know it was Ben Affleck that did all the typing, you know, while Matt Damon was on the bed doing hammer curls, all right? You can just see Affleck hunched over the computer like Ben Kingsley in Schindler's List, you know? While the arrogant, two-time Matt Damon, the spawn of beer hall fascism and Sid Field screenwriting books, sits on the balcony like Ray Fiennes in his bathrobe shooting at people."
Fun thing is that the basic character designs in Watchmen aren't even that edgy. They're similarly silly to many classic designs. There's not a single design similar to Overkill's pure "so dark and conflicted" thing.
Yeah but Liefeld isn't directly inspired by Moore, he wasn't even trying to imitate his style and I feel like hbomberguy just added him in because he wanted an excuse to dunk on him. Comics that were actually inspired by Killing Joke and TDKR would the (varying in quality) grim takes on classic DC heroes from the 90s and 2000s which didn't necessarily share the style of Liefeld. Liefeld's style is more stylized and action focused, as compared to the more edgy in subject matter and "deconstructive" takes of DC comics post-Moore. Rob was actually inspired by Frank Miller, though.
I think you really glossed over one of the important points of the great comics of the 80s, they ended. The writers had an idea, explored it, and then when they had said what they wanted to say wrapped it up. Watchman has it's climax, the ideas are mostly wrapped up, and then it makes one final point about strong principles, the consensus, and that some people can't compromise without destroying their self. The very idea of the ending in and of itself has a purpose, to bring clarity to the argument and to let other voices come to the table. The fact that The Killing Joke ends was not an invitation to retell The Killing Joke 100 times, but to respond to the killing joke. There have been amazing comics that have followed in the footsteps of The Killing Joke, but they did it by knowing the ideas they wanted to explore and when they were done. It might be one issue, or it might be eighty issues, but there are people who learnt the lesson and tell mature and interesting stories. The care and craft is there, and it is once again being found.
It’s worth noting here that professional critical punching bag and symbol of all things bad Rob Liefeld has major issues with story structure. In books like youngblood, he utterly fails to introduce characters or settings and… things just kind of happen for the run of any given issue. Villains appear and fights occur. Then the book is over. Sometimes villains leave for no reason. Nothing gets resolved, of course, so you have a book that effectively has NO BEGINNING, NO MIDDLE, AND NO END.
@@Fluffkitscripts I guess that probably makes him some form of messianic figure inside the industry and is the reason why it kept him despite his total inability to draw feed.
I think Fight Club strikes that balance between fun and depth. It's as deep as you want it to be, but on the surface it **can be** just about a guy trying to make sense of the world. But you can also take it as a commentary on modern masculinity. And there are lots of layers to it when you watch it again.
The absolute final irony of it all is Moore himself has indeed lamented the final effect Watchman would have on the comics industry. Not necessarily that it made it "dark and edgy," but part of his impetus for making it was to show how you could do something new and interesting with medium. A medium which to that point (with a few notable exceptions) had kind of stagnated. Layered narratives, re-imaging older characters to be more nuanced, complex stories, taking risks with the concepts and styles. Watchmen did indeed show what comics could be if artists and writers used some imagination and had some guts. And from that we ended up with 90s where good guys being bad guys, bad guys being worse guys, and upping the sex, gore, and profanity was considered being "mature." And the pouches. Oh god man...the pouches.
He showed them just what the medium could do if someone put enough thought, care and effort into telling stories in it, and unfortunately, just about everyone who followed took all the wrong lessons from it.
@@Lastofthefreenames One can look at it that way. And there is some merit to it. Once a new trend is finds footing imitators will inevitably follow to copy and cash in on it. Often with varying degrees of success until the trend burns itself out and a new one starts. What's interesting in this case though is the trend can be traced back to a handful of progenitors (Moore's work among them) and you can trace very easily how quickly the imitators that followed ultimately missed the original point. Watchmen in particular has a lot going on under the hood (no pun intended.) It deconstructs a bevvy of superhero tropes and conventions, pointing out their flaws, exploring their implications, each character representing one or two classic iconic archetypes and asking "What would someone like this actually be like? What kind of person would they be behind the mask?" Because that's what the story was really about. Not people being Superheroes, but Superheroes being people. And the result is...we'll go with less than inspiring. Niteowl II is an ascended fanboy who only feels cool when he puts on the suit. Silk Spectre II is a pageant kid being lived through vicariously by her mom. Comedian is a sadist and bully who uses costumed adventuring as an excuse to hurt people. Rorschach is mentally unbalanced and ideological fanatic. Ozzy has a messiah complex and delusions of grandeur. Dr Manhattan has the powers of a god but has lost his humanity. And that's not counting the racism, sexism, and homophobia simmering among them and various original members of the Minute Men. Now this isn't to say they themselves are one note stereotypes themselves, even with their flaws. They have nuance and depth to them. Comedian of all people calls out Manhattan on his moral erosion when he fails to stop Eddie from murdering a pregnant woman, keeps the secret of Laurie's true parentage, and is legit horrified at discovering Adrian's plan. Rorschach openly admits that he can be "difficult" and shows appreciation for Dan's continued friendship. Dan and Laurie do indeed help people from a burning building and risk their necks to bust Rorschach out of jail. But the underlying point through all the characters is that, with the possible exception of Nite Owl I, all them have baggage and damage. Each one, to the last, does indeed fight for "Truth, Justice, and all that stuff," but their motives for doing it are less than noble. Now, in isolation and its own self contained universe that's an interesting idea and premise. And it honestly isn't even a really new one. Strictly speaking, Marvel had been doing the "heroes with personal problems" as far back as Spider Man and the Fantastic Four. Hell, more himself played with some of concepts when he did his Miracle Man run. But Watchmen hit with such a splash and at just the right point that "heroes with problems" became the order of the day. Heroes had to be "real." They had to be "mature." And the imitators quickly glomped on that if "heroes with problems" was the next big thing, then "heroes who had nothing but problems" would be even better. And you see this reflected in the various "dark and edgy" takes on various established heroes, certain already "dark and edgy" characters getting more prominence, a deluge of "modern" and "next generation of heroes" characters, and a cranking up of profanity, sex, and violence to distinguish themselves as comics "not just being for kids anymore." And with the rise of the speculator boom everyone was clamoring to get on the gravy train. In retrospect though it becomes clearly obviously this trend's success wasn't due to the works of Moore, but in spite of it. The imitators picked up the surface details and aesthetics but missed a lot of the underlying point. Once the shock and awe of those "mature" (more like adolescent) works had faded there...really wasn't much to the new characters themselves and few changes to the older ones really stuck. Most were quickly scrapped, forgotten, or put on busses never to be seen again, or became fodder for "dork age" inside jokes. Those few that survived did so only by being almost completely retooled from the ground up. And attempts to revive them or the overall aesthetic has been met with...mixed success at best. *cough*BVS*cough.* So while you're not wrong, in the case of comics I think the interesting part is being able to track what you describe while at the same time examining it for how it went "right" despite getting everything so wrong. An object lesson in how "popular" doesn't necessarily mean "good" and the inherent shelf life of certain trends. That's my take at least.
I was thinking "Oh wow, that kid got a chance to draw on TV with Stan Lee and Rob Liefield! Oh wait, that's Rob?" Seriously he looks 16 or so, it's upsetting.
I have a visceral response to seeing them animate Batman with those 50+ y/o double cheeks, standing in front of the young woman he is a mentor to and has slept with
I have heard the argument that supposedly most of the projects where that ship is, Timm wasn't directly involved in those projects, or at least, not the writer for those projects. For my part, I don't know if that's factual. I'm just repeating a counter-argument about that particular topic of discussion.
The animation in this is really just unforgivable. You can make budget animation distinct and stylized, but this not only looks like any D-tier DC animated straight to dvd flick, but it looks genuinely worse than most of those do.
as a non-comic fan i genuinely thought it was just some popular movie made from scratch due to the quality of animation being worse than 'the amazing spider man'
I tried reading the Venom origin story comics, but I was driven insane by how *every single character* just explained their emotions and motivations to the reader. At first I started to think all comics were like that. Glad I'm not alone
Lmfaooo can you imagine if people in real life talked like that? “My name is Michael and this morning, I forgot my sandwich at home, it saddens me deeply to think I am about to dine in this filthy diner, but I’ve learned that life doesn’t give you lemons - it sprays them in your eyes instead” “Sir this is a Wendy’s”
I feel that the treatment of women in comics is part of a general problem that comic writers seem to have, where to shake up the status quo, they just can't have positive changes anymore. Every shake up has to involve characters dying, becoming disabled, breaking up romantic couples, going insane, losing limbs, losing loved ones, and so on and so on. Writers can't seem to let characters stay happy for more than an issue or two.
someday there should be a big shake up in a comic where idk lex luthor decides to turn good and become best friends with clark -again- and he comes over every other day to have dinner with him and lois and there's just a solid run of several issues of them being bros and lex being v out of touch w normal ppl like come on clark it's just one tractor how much can it cost, ten million dollars? or lois being like lex you've engineered hundreds of different death machines but you don't know how to use a toaster? and lex is like look I always asked Mercy to do it I just assumed she burnt it with her ferocious glare or smth and after a bit, there's a threat again, and the audience is like oh okay now it gets serious again but then lois and lex lecture and bribe/threaten the bad guy while clark stands behind them w his arms crossed looking v Intimidating and then they all go out for a late lunch bc that only took the first half of the issue that's way more unexpected and interesting than killing off a character or having them break up or clark turning evil for a bit or whatever other bs the writers came up with in their desperate attempt to keep the edgy shock factor that they seem to think is the epitome of good writing -(also lex and clark should be dating too bc clark has two hands and lois and lex would get along amazingly as the snarky asshole best friend duo dc please im begging you)-
LESSON: "Dark and edgy" does not equal mature and interesting. Since the 90s, tonnes of superhero stuff has aped the aesthetic of Moore and co.'s dark stuff. But they seemed to think the darkness itself was what made those stories deep and "adult", not the fact that they had fascinating things to say about the human condition or that they subverted many of the dominant superhero tropes of their time. It's no surprise that Alan Moore's work after the 1980s is a lot more hopeful and less cynical in tone. He's been trying to subvert the new orthodoxy.
You're right that aesthetic is irrelevant to quality, Bryon. I think I speak for everyone when I say that I absolutely agree. However, It really is a shame that people dismiss bright, charming and cutesy content simply because it's different. The world needs more optimism right now, and this obsession with darkness is turning escapism into a chore.
You, know I've always struggled to explain to people why I did not care for Zack Snyder's Watchmen adaptation when it was so "faithful", and your comment made me realize why and perfectly encapsulates my feelings: it was "faithful" only on the most superficial level. Sure, some shots were lifted right out of the comic. But while the move reveled in the "darkness" and "edginess" of the comic, it completely missed the point of the comic. At best, all the themes and explorations of the comic were an afterthought in the movie. At worst, it completely flipped those themes to fit Zack Snyder's worldview (and look no further MoS and BvS to see what that worldview is). This is perfectly exemplified by how he treated Rorschach and Ozymandias. Snyder seems to be one of those people with a misguided adoration of a character who is supposed to be subversion of the Batman trope- a fascist, sociopathic vigilante. The movie completely removed or downplayed Rorschach's most overtly fascist and bigoted lines in favor of the more "acceptable" neo-conservatism you find in Dark Knight Rises, MoS and BvS. Ozymandias, on the other hand, was reduced to the "sissy villain" trope.
"It's kind of amazing that they managed to adapt a comic so badly that they added half an hour of pointless filler to pad for time, while taking out the most interesting parts." Literally EVERY attempt at adapting Alan Moore's works.
@@anthonykoslowski5346 And that one episode is basically the only time anyone has done an adaptation of one of his stories that he's approved of. That, and supposedly Harry Partridge's Saturday Morning Watchmen though it's hard to find official proof of that. The artist at the very least got a kick out of it.
That montage of edgelord superheroes kind of blurred together until I swore I heard "ShatterSad", and promptly imagined a much better comic where the Youngblood team was actually based around making people happy by kicking sadness' ass instead of, y'know, slaughtering people.
That actually sounds pretty interesting, but how would they kick sadness' ass? would they be fighting a supervillain/organization named sadness or would they go all anime magical girl style and fight living embodiments of sadness to protect and save people?
@@bluemonster5235 The second one is strangely similar to persona 3 just replace sadness with apathy and magical girl transformations with stands and that pretty much covers it
Also, the whole fact that Bruce's lack of family and corrupted childhood has led to a character who's allies are really "adoptive" family. The whole "Bruce is the mask, Batman is the face" thing is only half true. Batman wears an emotional facade to allies (and foes) hes not close to, Bruce wears a facade to the public and most of his "friends", only when you see him with his closest allies (The Bat-fam) do you see the true face of Batman/Bruce - a broken child who is doing everything in his nature to preserve or redeem the innocence, he personally lost, in others. So essentially you have a man whos main ideal is preserving innocence, especially to his extended family - having sex with someone he thinks of as his daughter who he feels needs protection, who he met when she was a child, is the actual daughter of one of his closest friends, and is the lover of his figurative and literal adopted son... yikes and no thanks.. Edit: its not just creepy - it fundamentally breaks his character. Are you really telling me he doesnt have the self-control to keep it in his pants with his "daugher"/son's lover, but does have the self-control to not kill the man who just ruined that same girls life? Or to not give up the mantle to be with the several other ex/current-lovers he actually has a connection with? What??
I remember my sister taking me to see this in the theater when it came out for my birthday and coming out having enjoyed it bit also a little angry. Mostly anger about the terrible romance and also the fact they gave her a sexy bra and not a sports bra. It shows the lack of thought put into the heroine having her running around as batgirl in an underwire
@@deliarebaudengo5440 Because you drank too much saw people use the word strawman so just started claiming people have two strawmen in on comment because you thought that's how the internet works. Go back to bed.
The point of the killing joke is that the joker is coping by believing that everyone is just like him and he’s wrong. Gordon doesn’t become evil after and that happens to him and neither does Barbara that’s the point it’s an optimistic story, and forces people like joker and Harvey Dent to take responsibility for their own choices
That's why I've always felt like Two-Face should have been the villain in The Killing Joke. Because of the Killing Joke, The Joker now has the reputation of being an armchair psychologist, but before The Killing Joke, The Joker was mostly known as a guy who takes pranks WAAAY too far. While Two-Face is the guy with a philosophy to preach and a point to make, Joker just wants to end your life because he finds it funny. Christopher Nolan's _The Dark Knight_ gets it right, actually, because it appeases the emo kids who also think 2019 _Joker_ is deep for espousing (the laziest possible) social commentary while laying out The Joker for what he truly is. Despite the regurgitated spiel that The Joker delivers to Batman in the interrogation room about how similar they are, he doesn't really care whether or not anyone agrees with what he's saying, even if he really believes that he is similar to Batman. The Joker in that movie really isn't an anarchist because of ideological motivations, rather he merely enjoys seeing the world burn. I like to think that the only reason he compares himself to Batman is to mess with Batman's head, because messing with someone as principled as Batman is funny to him, even if that wasn't what Nolan intended with that scene. People have pointed out that The Joker's plan in _The Dark Knight_ is more overengineered that one would expect for someone who is as chaotic as The Joker proclaims himself to be, and while I also don't believe that's intentional by Nolan, I do think it adds to the character rather than detracting from it, because yeah, like I've been saying, The Joker doesn't care about being ideologically consistent, he just orchestrates chaos because it's funny to him. Harvey Dent on the other hand is actually the more principled anarchist, and so it's only natural that he would try to prove to everyone that he's actually not that insane, and he would be the one to try to convince them to join his side, not The Joker. Side rant about 2019 _Joker_ since I'm in the mood: Nearly every Batman villain is some vengeful social outcast, and Arthur Fleck could have turned into the freaking Mad Hatter and the story would have still made sense, because that's how generic of a Batman villain Arthur Fleck is. 2019 _Joker_ removes anything and everything that makes The Joker unique in the comics. The fact that Joker isn't seeking revenge, and that he genuinely finds your suffering funny is what makes him uniquely scary. The origin story only ends up humanizing an inherently inhumane character. The Joker is supposed to represent pure chaotic evil, so just let him do that. His origin story is so irrelevant, it would be more productive to learn about the frequency of The Joker's bowel movements than it would be to understand his backstory. I'm so tired of writers trying to overcomplicate and convolute The Joker. The beauty of the character is in his simplicity. Just as Batman's character is also fairly straightforward. Anytime The Joker gets an origin story, it's missing the point of the character, and the story usually ends up being SUUUPER derivative. 2019 _Joker_ should not be getting a sequel after the snooze-fest that was the first one, and I really hope people hate the sequel so that we don't have to get any more. I can at least say that I am certainly not watching the sequel, not because I hated the first movie so much, rather because I hate the praise that it gets from people who automatically give a movie more credit for being a tragedy because all they watch is mainstream stuff.
@@youtubeviolatedme7123what do you think of the actual killing joke comic then? Do you think it stands out in any good ways with what it actually does? And I agree I think the killing joke still does work but I think it is as deep as the Joker should ever get. You said it best all that extra stuff complicates him and takes away from his fear factor I think it only works in the killing joke because without it I think it would be harder to interpret the point he's trying to make and it would be impossible to emphasize with him at the end when him and Batman talk then he kinda kills him then jk lol didnt kill him.
@@youtubeviolatedme7123Also! You seem well informed so bruh how is Jason called the Red Hood as an homage to the Joker's origin if no one's supposed to know his origin? I think I must just be missing something right??
"He's gotta be a man with a thick neck" you got the name Overkill and you *didn't* think of a drag queen who looks like zombie Marie Antoinette? I'm wasting away over here for want of grimdark scream queen Overkill unleashing horrifying vengeance on criminals in her city (and also she's not a gay joke, just legit terrifying).
That would actually be really interesting, Marie Antoinette was as much a victim of the revolution as her and other nobility were causes for it. The fevor and hate for the noble class so great that they accused her of sexually abusing her own child just to have her excecuted. An accusation she dismissed with equal parts terror, rage, indignation, and sadness, even attempting to appeal to the other mothers, begging them to understand that whatever sins she and her husband committed, she was never so low and evil as to do something like that to her own child. She was of course still executed. A hero who both fights against criminals and robbers without impunity, yet also slightly hates the common folk, who remind her of the nuanced cruelty of the french revolution. Question being, would she be in france? Could she handle looking at those people?
@@mr.dantastic5073 The depth here is so cool I LOVE the layers, this character and her story have so much potential. I feel like she could be a good critique of like the billionaire superhero trope, and also probably girlboss feminism that prioritizes individual achievement over real intersectional goals.
One thing about the characters Liefeld creates...they become much better when taken out of Liefeld's hands. Cable went from a gruff cliche mercenary to one of the most psychologically complicated, self-aware, and sympathetic members of the X-Men thanks to writers post-Liefeld. Deadpool was a fairly one-dimensional cliche wisecracker before Joe Kelly turned him into the over-the-top self-referential screwball we know today. And when Shatterstar went from being an uninteresting cliche X-Adjacent to a character who was not only LGBT+, but in an unconventional relationship with fellow X-Force alumnus Rictor, suddenly his popularity took off. (Liefeld's gone on record saying he'd change Shatterstar back if he could, which in itself is enough to alienate me from him completely) Is there such a thing as Death of the Author in comics? Because Liefeld's a great example of why there should be.
I don't know comics well, but according to Liefeld, he wrote shatter star to be asexual, which is an orientation, as well as aromantic (he did not use that term but it's clear). Now, I cannot tell if he had any real understanding or asexuality and aromanticism, but that is what he said
Don't forget Glory and Supreme (The Wonder Woman and Superman "homages") who Alan Moore and Joe Keatinge both remade and made virtually indistinguishable as Liefield creations by the simple act of giving them personalities, let alone coherent stories and character arcs.
@@Zshugost One could even say that there is a subtype to Death of the Author, which is that Alan Moore is the Murderer of the Author. I would have put the qualifier "bad" there, but the League is just one proof that Moore can knock it out of the park just as well with high quality original material.
@Curt Clark I'd argue that it was Fabian Nicieza that actually made both Cable and Deadpool into 3 dimensional characters. he managed to somehow make Cable more human and relatable, but also gave Deadpool a real reason to exist within the 616 mainstream universe. that he also gave us Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool should not be overlooked :D
The batgirl segment isn't just filler, it's also supposed to be a specific response to the woman-in-refrigerator criticism of the source material, that Barbara gets crippled in this book that has, other then that, just absolutely nothing to do with her. So they add this whole opening segment to make the story more about her, but backfires so bloody spectacularly, because instead this movie is basically a Batgirl movie until she gets shot, then she just falls out of the plot completely? It only puts a spotlight on how pointless her inclusion in the original story was, while simultaneously fialing in every other possible aspect and dumping on Barbara's character in a plethora of terrible new ways.
It changes one important thing. In this version, Oracle is not a consequence of the original story. Oracle was a path she'd decided on before it happened. Getting shot didn't change that plan.
In trying to make it less sexist they made it more sexist by adding the "man has magical penis and totally changes woman's personality by having sex with once" trope.
I think a way to make the Overkill character work is to simply have him be happy. The series could focus on Overkill's life not just as a supervillain but also as a regular dude. he puts on the broken half robot half human persona when he is out committing crime but he's actually just a very well put together and chill dude. It could be used to make fun of 90's stereotypes while being a pretty new and interesting concept.
honestly, and you pointed this out briefly, the thing that keeps jumping out to me is how neutered the aesthetics are in the movie. the art of the graphic novel pushes the joker's facial expressions to their limits - he looks, literally, horrific. and it's incredible ! each panel w him has this completely unrestrained *feeling*, and it really gives u a sense of how the authors and artists thought of the joker and what he represented to them. it also really serves to make him stand out in the story, as compared to the other characters who, while stylized, look mostly, well, human. he looks and feels like something that's so close to being like the rest of them, but just maybe a few inches off the mark, which is a perfect representation of his story. to me, it's a testament to the incredible visual storytelling present throughout the entire thing, from the composition to the coloring. meanwhile, the animation in the movie looks so... bland. i won't say lazy, bc that's unfair to animators, bc it's almost definitely the fault of a poor budget rather than poor effort, but it's really such a shame. the original killing joke is so interesting, in so many ways, and the movie really just fucking nerfs all of them.
You know what's truly ironic? After most of the Image guys who founded it moved back to Marvel & DC, or went about other business ventures, Image eventually has had a real golden age with a lot of strange, interesting and off-the-wall ideas, as well as a lot of great creators making really fantastic comics. Strange considering two of the primary founders were MacFarlane and Leifeld. (And Jim Lee, but he's the reason I got into art and comics and I still love him)
To the point that, when I heard that Vertigo was shuttering, I was only sad out of faint nostalgia; Image has been the publishing house for all my creator-owned comics that I read, while Vertigo hadn't been for the last decade.
its also worth noting that when alan moore paralysed barbara gordon he didnt expect it to remain cannon as he wrote it before the infinite crisis continuity wipe but the comic ended up released after the reboot thus keeping it cannon
I'd be pissed If I did that. Imagine messing with a character you like fully expecting that, due to the nature of comics, it would not be canon; and then DC goes cool, that's the only version now. O O F
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong Except that's not true? It became the then status quo because the creators of Oracle were NOT okay with that treatment and used it as a stepping stone to build Barbara's character
Alan Moore has stated that none of the comic was intended to be canon but DC liked what he did with Barbara and Jokers origin to they canonized parts of his story.
Cards on the table: I obsess over comics quite a bit, and I can't actually tell where in the list of characters you go from the ones that actually exist to the ones you made up to make fun of the ones that exist. Well made, good stuff.
@@suarezguy I mean chances are, if your story relies too much on shock value, chances are it's not an impressive story anyway, due to the fact people can only be shocked once. It's more about the suspense of the shock. Knowing what's going to happen and then worrying. That's a good shock, not one that relies purely on someone not expecting it.
This comic would’ve been so much better in the post Spiderverse era where animators have started to re realise how good comics can look on the big screen if they’re animated as if they were the comics.
I know you meant Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse when you said "Spiderverse" but now you've got me wondering what an adaptation of Spider-Verse (2014) would look like.
@@dissraps It seems basic reading comprehension has missed you. I said “animators” not “the animators” and “have started to” and not “all do” as to imply there are some animators but not all. Like those working on spider verse and those who made the new Puss in Boots
Watching the Liefeld segment with Stan Lee reminds me why I actually really enjoy Squirrel Girl. Imagine in the middle of the bad grimdark 90's you suddenly get Ditko back to draw a Silver Age style character who's literal power is asking squirrels to just jump en-mass onto villains. Then give her 20 more years of development up into and through the Ryan North series, to show she's from a stable family, has no tragic backstory, a really solid friend group, and really has no grimdark forced emotional baggage. Its literally a character who was designed from her conception to be the exact opposite of the 90's grimdark, and its hilarious. 🤣
And on top of it she’s canonical the strongest marvel character and as a complete mockery of that fact every feat of her strength is only referenced to never shown. Ryan North is so fucking awesome he really brought squirrel girl to life
Did Stan Lee shade Rob Liedfeld intentionally or was that a funny happy accident. "A Rob Liefeld character without shoulder pads just seems naked." "You draw X Factor right? How many X books do we have... When we have an idea we just run with it." He didn't say a good idea.
you guys know that Stan and Avi were the ones that greenlit those books in the first place, right? In that context of " _we_ have an idea..." he is talking about himself too, and Marvel in general as a company.
When I was talking about this movie with some friends I was completely shocked to hear one say that Joker raped Barbara in the comic. At no point when I read it did I even consider that as a possibility. To me it was so clear that he shot her and then stripped her to torture her father with images of her completely vulnerable and in agony. Why would he need to do anything else? It was Gordon he was trying to torment. The other guys I was talking to insisted he raped her as well. I had to go reread it to check, but I still didn't see what they had. It pissed me off that violence against a woman is so commonly sexualized that they just assumed that must have happened. Wtf?
ClockworkTrilobite a bit late but I want to say this. I think that the reason why your friends assumed that the joker r”ped Barbara is due to the fact that the Joker was doing unimaginable things to her, with the goal of hurting her and her father. And most people believe that the worst thing you can do against a person, especially a woman, is r”pe. This is why it’s used as a story point so often, it’s the worst thing. So when there is a time period where no one knows what he was doing with the young woman, who’m he wants to hurt. It doesn’t take the most creative mind to come up with that and just imagine him doing it.
@@frankwest5388 If people made that assumption simply because rape is the worst thing that can be done to a person, than they would be making that assumption about men as well as women. But they don't. I've never heard anyone say that Mads Mikkelsen's character raped James Bond because of the torture scene in Casino Royal (even though Bond was stripped naked and tied to a chair with no seat bottom). If a man is being tortured, it is very rare for sexual violence to be assumed. But if a woman is being tortured, it is commonly sexualized. And apparently it's so common that my friends couldn't even accept an interpretation without sexual assault. They looked at me like I was an idiot for not 'getting' that Babs was raped. To be clear, I'm not saying they're bad people. I can see why they interpreted it that way. And that's what makes me mad.
@@frankwest5388 Also, I would question your assumption that the reason why women being raped is "used as a story point so often" is just because it's the worst thing you can do to a person. Again, if that's the case, wouldn't men being raped be used just as often? Why isn't it? If men being raped is too taboo to portray, why is it acceptable to portray women being raped "so often"?
ClockworkTrilobite because despite how awful it is, a man being r”ped is a joke about how unmanly he is. Unless it happens to a little kid, in which case it’s made to symbolize the failure of a system that should have protected him. This goes back to the idea that it is very difficult to feel bad for man in many cases. Not because they don’t deserve the sympathy but because of human group structure. As an example. Charity organizations never show a man in need. That is because studies have shown that people are inherently less sympathetic towards them. The sympathy scale goes: little kid, animal, woman then man. It’s awful but that is how people work, if it isn’t specifically pointed out.
@@frankwest5388 if someone thinks rape of any kind is a joke, they are a a piece of trash. Period. I'm not sure what you're attempting to say at this point. The stigma against male victims (especially of sexualized violence) is a horrible thing that decent people should fight to change. And it also doesn't really negate anything I said. I would encourage you to question your assumptions that because our current society, generally, holds certain biases that they must be innate or correct.
Seriously, though, that Rob Leifeld segment was embarrassing. Stan Lee asks him how this character would be different from Wolverine or Cable, and he responds by generically describing those characters. Cringe.
Yo this book low key traumatized me as a little girl lol. Someone brought it to school and I couldn't stop looking at the pages where commissioner Gordon is paraded through a maze of images of Barbara's naked bloody body. It is seared onto my memory, can't believe it took so long for parents to figure out comics aren't always for kids 🙃 I think what was so disturbing was the sexualized images of a woman's body bleeding out
He started off bad but over time and lots of practice became mediocre. Liefeld had one talent. He could churn out work on time. That's what Marvel wanted. Not talent, but production.
Alejandro Glinoga so he wasn’t even good at churning out crap. I’m surprised, everything I heard indicated that’s the reason he was popular with Marvel editors, and he must have had a talent of some kind.
I can so easily imagine a better version of the Two-Face scene: Batman and Gordon are walking through the halls. Gordon at first averts his eyes from Harvey's cell, clearly looking uncomfortable, until he hears the soft _plink_ of Two-Face's coin landing on the floor. Gordon stops, looks, hesitates, and walks over. He tosses the coin back through the bars. G: "Harvey?" H: (no answer) G: (starts to turn to walk away, turns back) "It was... it was heads-up, Harvey." (Starts walking away) H: "...Thanks." G: (catches up to Batman) "(sigh) I miss him, Batman. I wish he was back to his old self. We all have our bad days, but I guess life just... tears you in half sometimes. Not always so literally, but..." B: "Sometimes, you lose something you can't get back. It's what you do once that thing is gone that matters." G: "...Yeah." Obvs I'm not a professional writer, but I think this short interaction between Gordon and Harvey would help to show that, even now, Gordon hasn't let go of his sympathy-that Gordon still considers Harvey as some kind of a friend, even after everything. It'd show that Gordon has lost a lot in his time, foreshadowing him nearly losing Barbara later-Harvey was split in half, and now Barbara's about to (effectively) lose her lower half, and Gordon's gonna need to hold himself together through that. It shows that Gordon hasn't quite let the city get to him and is still a good person in the end. Y'know?
The movie needed about a half hour of extra content from just what was in the book, so stuff like this, fleshing out the scenes from the book, would be so much better than adding 30 minutes of bat-sexual tension followed by bat-sex
"It's got to be a guy, he's got to be huge" ok but what if Overkill was actually a woman, who fights crime in an augmented cyborg/iron-man-type armor suit that looks ridiculously muscular, because that's the only way she can be taken seriously among the rest of the hypermasculine, Liefeldian characters, or because everyone's expecting her to wear a bikini to fight crime and be sexy all the time, and she just wants to fight crime without bringing gender into it, so maybe the suit is actually androgynous, and people just assume Overkill is male.
Well Overkill's crotch is usually drawn as a smooth flat surface, so this re-interpretation of the suit being androgynous makes sense there... As was the style of the time, come to think of it; which is sort of amusing given the grotesquely bulging muscles and thiccest of necks these featureless groins came with. Someone might write a paper about male insecurities and power fantasies crossing wires there.
@@kingofAwsomness Stan Lee was always credited with "creator" of the characters he helped write, leaving the artists themselves--Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and Bill Everett, without the proper recognition. It is because these poor working environments and falling-outs that Kirby and Ditko left Marvel for DC, creating characters there where they would receive the credit they felt they deserved. Stan Lee only really apologized to Jack Kirby *after* his death in the early '90s, which is kind of a dick move if you ask me. Lee's impact on the medium should not be denied, but neither should the equally important, if not *more* important artists.
@@brandonarango-almarez3516 to be fair to him, he gave credit to them it was and unfortunate side affect that his name was the one they people saw first.
That's insane, the ending scene doesn't even do that thing with the headlights in the rain. That's the most memorable scene from that comic and its fucking heart breaking and they fuck it up.
I know it's not DC-- but watching this video solidified for me why I fell so madly in love with Matt Fraction's Hawkeye run, beyond the fact that he solidified Clint Barton as a deaf hero. In so many panels of those comics, particularly in Clint's apartment, there is so much environmental storytelling going on with how much of a mess Clint's apartment is, how it foreshadows his depression and acts as a stand-in for expository dialogue. Clint drinking coffee straight out of the pot got meme'd to all hell but IRC you actually see his sink filled with dirty unwashed dishes in several panels beforehand. The guy's life is falling apart and the environment reflects that before you get any in-character conversation about it. It's fucking great. It also helps me put my thumb on why I've felt like so many comics have been so bare bones in the last decade. Great essay man.
I think SexDeath is based on a real character. The one where the epic line “Samantha Brown, you have to get out of here! You vagina is haunted!” Came from.
I'm 100% tired of when media that is trying to be dark just beats thier female characters and put them through awful traumatic experiences all just for some shock value. It's annoying
Yeah. As I've gotten older and seen and experienced things like serious injuries and accidents, I know the world can be horrible and it doesn't entertain or surprise me to just see that kind of thing gratuitously happening to women on screen. When horrible things happen to women on screen I want to see it treated with adequate depth and the consequences for the woman explored. That isn't the best explanation of how I feel, but close enough
@@katatat2030 The issue with male writers choosing to write out the suffering of female characters is that it is _never_ about exploring that woman's trauma from her perspective. It is ONLY there to give the male protagonist something to be upset about, because he's too badass and cool to be the victim of something as traumatic and violating as, say, sexual assault. It delegates the woman to his property, a plot device with no more characterization and sometimes even less than John Wick's literal pet dog. And when the woman IS the protagonist, like in Kill Bill, the crime is always some form of sexual assault/rape (because it's hot, basically, is the only reason) and her violent murder sprees are always brought into question as we're suddenly made to consider the morals of taking some, if not all the lives that ruined hers while men get to have a mindless indulgent bloodbath for their entire runtime.
One great panel at 11:27 also has the shadow of Batman looming over Gordon, which really reflects on how Batman is the dark side of even the supposed most honest cop's desires
Oh Stan, how we miss you. Him smack talking Liefeld and him not even realizing is a comic critic's pot-a'-gold. Also good on Moore as being self-critical. A lot of stuff I've written in the past has me groanig and asking what I was drinking, injecting or snorting back then.
I personally blame Bruce Timm for the first 30 minutes part, he has hinted in his other work that Batman and Batgirl are a thing. Mainly in the movie "Mystery of the Batwoman," and his run on the Batman Beyond comics. Those and the first 30 minutes feel more like fan fiction than official stories. All I can say is, Batman x Batgirl should never be a thing
Media Detective I dunno. I'm a teacher and I have seen that kind of thing happen, and my colleague who was involved wasn't nearly as emotionally retarded as Bruce Wayne, so as long as the work doesn't act like Bruce/Barbara is anything but a TERRIBLE IDEA, I'm okay with that particular plot point. It just needs to be handled better than this abomination of a film did.
bruh BatmanxBatgirl is Timms OTP and while i love him for his work on the animated series he really REALLY tries to get the ship in when he can and its squicky af
Mystery of the Batwoman seemed to have the plot (and some of the shots and stylings) of a porn parody. It would have been more artistic and interesting as a 3-way lesbian gangbang than what it was.
I think what pissed me off most about the Killing Joke adaptation is how they made such a big deal of Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill coming back to voice Batman and Joker, but then they just phone it in SO HARD. All the emotion and subtlety that the writing had in the comic is gone, and they just go through the motions.
I don't really blame them since they have proved that they can get very invested and give an outstanding performance when given proper direction. That's what was lacking in the movie. Focus and meaning, something the actors can actually work with. Watch Liam Neeson in any scene in the Phantom Menace and then observe him in Batman Begins. The difference is STAGGERING.
Not only that, but it's a story Mark Hamill has wanted to do for years, and when he's retired as Joker (numerous times) he's said it's one of the only things would get him back. Considering as it's what he's wanted for years, and he's the voice most people read The Killing Joke in, that's pretty worrying.
Yeah, and that's really such a shame because apparently Mark Hamill has been wanting a Killing Joke movie for a long time and was really excited to say some of the best lines from the comic. At least, that's what I heard, and it seems like something he'd really want to do.
I remember when the movie came out and everyone around me seemed to love it, and that made me feel strange because I knew it had to suck since 1. its an alan moore adaptation 2. it used the generic dc animations traces and style. And the thing that every dc movie has in common is that they are stylistically very stale. Half of the killing jokes brilliace is the artwork and how cinematic it is, the use of color, framing, panel layout and pace, the use of shadow... This comic is an insane visual medium, wich is simply not the way of the modern dc animations. So how good could this movie be if it lacks half (or more) of the sources soul and personality? And knowing about the new opening act, how could people think this was anything but distasteful trash? Then I watched it and hated all my friends for being stupid until they realised this was just distasteful trash.
There are easy things they could’ve done to both extend the story and feature length and make it less sexist, but they didn’t do any of them. They could’ve made it into a mystery about where the Joker has escaped, with Batman, Batgirl, and Gordon in pursuit, and had Joker commit a series of crimes all designed to drive Gordon over the edge, culminating in the kidnap of Barbara. Instead they tack on a pointless prologue which has nothing to do with the rest of the story, and actually make it MORE sexist as a result.
It does but it would require changing the basic shape of the original story so I don't they'd have done that. The Joker never kidnapped Barbara, after all, he just shot her and then took nudes for... some reason that let's not get into. But the idea is sound. If you want to develop Barbara and Batman's relationship it would be easy to start with Batman going to the Asylum with Gordon after Joker's escape (i.e the original start of the story) and then introduce Batman, Gordon and Batgirl going on an investigation before Jokey shot Barbara. They'd go searching for clues, follow Joker's previous steps, check out known hideouts (which could be triggers for some of Joker's backstory) and in each of them we could get a dosage of Barbara interacting with Batman or with her father as Batgirl to set up some stuff. Give her flashbacks of her relationship with her dad and mom in the meantime, intersperse them with Joker's side of the story preparing the whole operation and flashbacks to suggest that even Barbara who experienced loss and seeing her father escape into alcoholism still stood strong and didn't crumble under the pressure. That would make Barbara becoming Oracle after being paralyzed echo the general theme of the story even stronger. Then the good guys find nothing, resolve to keep trying and neither her father nor Batman engage in any inappropriate activity with Batgirl (since they're both father figures for her and her doing Bats is about two steps removed from doing the same with her father, why does that ship keep rearing its stupid, vaguely incestuous head?) and they all go home to relax, then the Joker intersects, strikes when least expected for shock value and you get the final part of the story play out as usual. If one wants filler in this story, there are way easier ways to get it to work aside from just stitching a whole other, weaker story on top of it. For it to even attempt to appear seamless it needs to be integrated and expand upon the original story. Otherwise it's just jarring...
The Killing joke is a classic and likely in the top 3 most well known Batman stories ever, so why would they seemingly spend so little money on the animation? It doesn't even look as good as the 90's Batman animated series or as good as the comic it's based on.
I loved seeing Stan Lee's priorities as a writer and designer on display during that "Overkill" segment. His first two suggestions: 1. _Give him HUGE shoulder pads! A tough guy is naked without big shoulder pads!_ 2. _Give him a distinct personality and perspective that'll set him apart from the many, MANY other characters that already populate this oversaturated industry._ The first suggestion was inherently silly and over-the-top. The second was unexpectedly thoughtful and extremely important. I'd argue that combination of goofy and insightful is the core foundation of Marvel comics. The X-Men dressed in yellow spandex and fought big purple robots, but they were ALSO an allegory for societal bigotry towards those who are perceived as abnormal. The fact that Rob CLEARLY was unprepared for that second question and immediately fell back on exactly what had already been done before says a lot about his own priorities, as well.
I don't even think that first one is a suggestion. He wasn't saying all tough guys in comics need shoulder pads. What he said was "Haha, a Liefeld character is naked without shoulder pads, amiright?" he was making fun of liefeld's overused/reused designs and liefeld didn't even notice
Azzarello’s Wonder Woman has two major issues that have stopped me from reading it: 1.) Her origin was changed. Instead of being clay from Themysciria’s soil and given life by the gods, Diana is now Zeus’s daughter. Her origin is now defined by her father, a trend I’ve noticed in Azzarello’s work when he writes anything with what’s supposed to be feminist but has the women defined by a man (like making Barbara emotionally and sexually dependent on Batman). 2.) The Amazons were retconned into having captured, raped, and murdered sailors to replenish their ranks. The bridge between Paradise left forgotten and the modern world of man retooled into a story of Diana’s family being rapists and killers. Yeah, no. I think I’ll pass.
I had no idea Settlers of Catan was a comic book villain before it was a boardgame! Sort of makes sense the amount of times it's turned me and my friends into furious villains ourselves.
For everyone who is confused right now, they're just joking. There is no superhero or villain named Settlers of Catan. I got confused as well and googled it lol
Going through the ways that the comics did things better than the movie just gave me a very disturbing realization. Lego Batman is one of the most accurate comic book adaptations in decades.
You're missing the point of the comic and criticism then. He's saying essentially that Alan Moore did such a good job of subverting the tropes and format of comics as a whole, that comics kind of haven't recovered from it. His shade is kind of over everything, he called the industry on its shit so to speak, thereby, in a sense, ruining comics from that point on. Cause the illusion was broken. And his stuff is phenomenal and groundbreaking, but there's a reason that we still talk about his work while so much of the modern stuff gets kind of ignored.
You know, after we both read "The Killing Joke" my bff and me had a long discussion about the idea that the past we see in the comic is real or just another fabrication and her arguments for fabrication were that the wife and baby die unceremoniously off-screen and the fact that she says that she only stays with the future Joker because "he is good in bed and makes her laugh", two things that can obviously interpreted as something that the Joker's massive narcissism and Ego would fabricate. The transitions can also be seen that way, not as trigger-reminders but as his malleable mind shaping a new past as he sees images and shapes itself after them. We had hours of fun and fruitful discussion about set ups, ideas and so on all from a comic. And even Alan Moore doesn't really like it anymore. Its also criminal how they removed all those amazing backgrounds and small world-building details from the movie. Even the alarm-clock and the can of coffee on the shelve next to the bathroom mirror add a feeling of how cramped, small and dirty the place is and how desperate it would ultimately make the man to go to to criminals and aid in a heist. You can get so much info done in one panel that shows how a room is set up or what items a person keeps where and so few comics (and movies) actually do that. Heck, the game "Gone Home" is basically that alone.
Wonder Woman turns into a Super Saiyan in the New 52 comics. Apparently her cuffs not only deflect bullets, but also hold back her real power. It's cool if you 'don't' think about it. As a matter of fact, a lot of the Justice League got new and more powerful super forms during that run.
That sounds fitting that aquaman was forgotten. That sounds incredible in various ways that they are taking things common in anime after all this time.
Kyle Rayner (the Green Lantern shown in the video) gets the biggest anime treatment of all. Over the years, DC established several other lantern rings, including the Yellow Lantern Corps of Fear, the Red Lantern Corps of Rage, The Star Saphires of Love, etc... totalling in seven different corps including the Green Lanterns. Kyle, towards the beginning of his New 52 run, ends up putting all seven rings on at the same time and becomes a Super Lantern. It's two pages of absolute Anime bliss.
berserkchip Aquaman is badass enough on his own - although I guess his hand being magic again would be fun, just for another "I gave Steppenwolff a stroke"-moment.
8:00 I think it's not just padding, it's also them trying to sidestep criticism about the problematic elements of Killing Joke that involve Barbara's portrayal (namely, that she's fridged and doesn't have any agency; her traumatic injury is only explored through the lens of how it affects her father and Batman, etc), by spending more time on her in the film. However, they don't actually devote that time to characterizing her as an independent person so that the audience feels bad for her when she gets shot, they just show her in relation to Batman (a man), and depict the two having "sexual chemistry" because of course, that's the only relationship a man and woman can have if they're not biologically related. If they had added more to the middle of the story (I guess it's the "middle," it's after the inciting incident and before the climactic showdown, idk) about Barbara reacting to her injury, maybe foreshadowed Oracle (much more than they did), and maybe even added something for Barbara to do that affects the overall plot (I know adding stuff to Alan Moore plots is blasphemy, but here I think it would be a good idea), that would be a positive addition to the story as long as it was done well, imho. But yeah, this is padding and an attempt at being "progressive" without actually... being progressive. (You could even have Barbara learn that she was targeted, not because she's Batgirl, but just to hurt her father, and show her getting really mad about it, which maybe then motivates her to do something like research some stuff or get a tip and inform Batman, and that could be kind of a meta bit, idk.)
Also tbh I don't like the idea of the Joker having one defined Tragic Backstory (TM). I kind of want him to be a fluid/malleable character in terms of where he comes from, and even stuff like his motivations, the way Batman is also sometimes allowed to be in comics (since other people besides Bruce Wayne have been Batman). I like the idea of the Joker as a force of nature, not a potential Darth Vader figure who could hypothetically "turn good again" if he got just the right closure/catharsis/therapy (I like a redemption arc for lots of villains, just not the Joker).
But why even change the story? If you want to read about this girl then read her stories instead. The killing joke focuses mostly on batman and the joker so it's not that weird that Barbara is not getting some offshot story about how this trauma hurt her. That can be told in another story and would break the pacing off the killing joke.
One of the things that annoys me the most about The Killing Joke the movie is that it, like most of the fans of the comic, think it's a story about Barbara. It isn't. The character she became after this story is one that she became despite this, not because of this.
Well, we were told that Barbara would have agency in this and it would remedy the original portrayal, so people HOPED the movie would be about Barbara, because that might help redeem the shitty clusterfuck that is The Killing Joke. Instead they screwed it up so monumentally it ended up being worse. It's less about thinking the movie was about her, and being told it was when it wasn't, so I don't think it's unfair to criticize the film from that perspective.
Well, regardless of whether or not she's the main character, a character should never be used as a plot device. Barbara is shot almost at the beginning of the story and they never really go back to her, so we can see how she is dealing with such a traumatic event. Instead, the injury of one character is used to make other characters feel bad. It wouldn't be so bad if we got to see her and explore her character a little bit after the fact. Build her up as a real person and not a plot device to push the men into action.
Lady Deathdyke Then that’s a problem with the adaptation, not the comic itself. Yeah, it’s a terrible thing that happens to a beloved character, but when your intention is to shock or surprise the audience, all is fair game. It’s just a story and the characters are all fictional. The people expecting the film to be about Barbara when it’s an adaptation of a story Barbara was barely in set them selves up for disappointment. The people who claimed she’d have more agency in that story were also idiots to try and force such a thing into the story the way they did. It should’ve just been a direct adaptation and that’s it. Make a few changes, but don’t lie to your audience.
jeeshwa123 You're severely downplaying Barbara's role as Oracle. Gathering intel isn't an easy task and she puts herself in danger when she does that, too. Plus, it's not the only thing she did: As Oracle, she was one of the strategists, mission planners, hackers and the intel gatherer for the JUSTICE LEAGUE (not just Batman or the Robins, BUT THE ENTIRE SUPERHERO COMMUNITY), she still lead the Birds of Prey as their leader, helped train the other 2 Batgirls (hell, she even taught Cassie how to read), and was overall an inspiration to other characters, especially the Bat family. Jason was a straight up asshole villain until the New 52 turned him into a more likable anti-hero, and most people didn't exactly like that because his team consisted of Teen Titans members who weren't known for killing people. The DC Rebirth team is the one everyone likes cause it better complements the idea of them being the DC Trinity's more darker counterparts, but that's recent. Heck, the New 52 did what you kind of wanted: get Barbara back as Batgirl and be on the roof tops and punch people. They had her getting experimental treatment from STAR Labs and, poof, she could walk again. And what did she do? NOTHING. She's been Batgirl for a city or a part of Gotham that no one cares about and did nothing of importance since. She's another on again, off again, sidekick who only mostly shows up in important Batman events to be sidelined or do little compared to Batman. Barbara was way more useful, more interesting and more likable as Oracle than she is at being the current Batgirl because they completely regressed her personality. All the character development, her learning to cope with her disability as long as she did in pre-New 52, becoming an important member of the JL as Oracle and being Cassandra Cain's mother figure and one of her mentors? All retconned away just so she could be Batgirl again.
Ok so I've watched this video before and I'm returning to it nearly four years after it was released, but as the discussion continued about newer creators looking back at wonderful works of art and bastardizing them, only superficially understanding what made them great, and trying so hard to copy the things that made those older works successful.....I was reminded of a more modern phenomenon that mirrors this perfectly.....Avatar: The Last Airbender Ever since its release, animated series aimed at children have tried so hard to emulate its mature themes and expansive universe without realizing WHY atla explored those things so successfully. Newer creators look at atla and remember the super cool plot and the big redemption arc and how much worldbuilding there was, when in reality, atla was never REALLY about the plot or the world of bending, it was about the characters and their lives and interactions. Newer creators tend to neglect meaningful character development in favor of making their shows "cool and edgy and mature like atla". atla was never edgy, it was quite goofy and fun, actually. The only reason the more serious points in the show had such a huge impact is because the characters were so well explored.
I'm genuinely not sure what new creators you are talking about. I really can't think of a single animated show that has tried to imitate atla but failed at it because they were trying to be "too cool and edgy and mature like atla". And I can't even think of a single modern non-superhero animated show that's only trying to be cool and edgy (Adventure Time, Steven Universe, Amphibia, Samurai Jack, Owl House, Castlevania, Infinity Train, Hilda, Kid Cosmic,... the list literally goes on and on). Also, please understand just because a show doesn't focus as much or not at all on being goofy, it doesn't mean it's bad. There are plenty of times when wrongfully placed goofiness actively hurts atla. And to @Cold Stuff, this doesn't apply to LoK. Calling LoK edgy is like calling AtLA edgy, just an overall very stupid thing to do. Creators choosing to make new content rather than pander to fans by making the same thing over and over, is **not** being edgy, hopefully you will learn that one day. Lastly, while atla **is** a great show, this fanbase really needs to stop acting like its the unreachable pinnacle of animation, it's not.
@@coldstuff9784 Yes and no; Legend of Korra was made by _some_ of the people that made ATLA; specifically the co-creators Mike and Bryan. However, ATLA's head writer, Aaron Ehasz, did not return, nor did Ehasz' ex-wife, who wrote some of ATLA's best episodes, return either. ATLA was very much a team success, and Legend of Korra was the result of part of that team being missing.
I literally own every single cablepool comic and they're wonderful. They were also basically the only cable comics I'd read when I first watched this, so when hbomb was describing him, I was like "really? that's not how I perceived him at all" and then two seconds later he was like but then cable got better and I was like oh okay good life makes sense now
I'd say it still amazes me that the best adaptation of an Alan Moore comic is the episode "For the Man Who Has Everything" from Justice League Unlimited, but I'd be lying. Man, what I wouldn't give for a really, really good animated series based on his run on Swamp Thing.
This idea, that that Justice League Unlimited episode is the only Alan Moore adaptation of which he approves, seems to be received wisdom on the Internet. But I've never been able to find a source for it. It's possible that he may have appreciated it at the time, but given his more recent remarks about DC, and the disdain he has for the work he did for them, I doubt he feels the same about it now. The column Comic Book Legends Revealed #562 on Comic Book Resources has a quote from Alan Moore to the makers of a fan-made adaptation of one of his Doctor Who comics: > "First, let me say how much I enjoyed Black Legacy. It is not only the first screen adaptation of my work that I’ve actually watched more that the first five minutes of before being overcome with rage and disgust, it is the only screen adaptation of my work that I’ve enjoyed from start to finish and can say I thoroughly approve of."
I honestly think that the focus on Barbera in the first act of the film was an attempt to make it seem like she was something more than a prop in the story. They failed, but I think they were trying to minimise the shittier things in the original comic.
It was never really a problem in the original. Joker tries to get to people through their loved ones. He did the same thing to Jason Todd but actually killed him. Guess that was sexist too.
@@lProN00bl I respectfully disagree. The controversy surrounding The Killing Joke wasn't that Joker did something bad -- that's just a given of the character -- the controversy was about Alan Moore's decision to make one of the worst moments of Barbara's life all about other people. I have a LOT of issues with Jason Todd's death, but one thing I'll give it is that it didn't happen out of nowhere, the way Barbara's assault did. Jason's death was the culmination of an established character arc that had been steadily built up prior to A Death In The Family: that he was a child who ran impulsively into dangerous situations again and again, in a world far less forgiving than the Silver Age. The entire ADitF event was a further reflection of his reluctance to change this approach. When he died, it was a further tragedy because it reflected an internal flaw of Jason's, one that he didn't overcome before it was too late. Yes, other characters, especially Batman, reacted strongly to this, but Jason's death had story and character significance exclusive to him. Again, I definitely have issues with Jason's death, but compare that to Barbara's assault. It didn't happen (story-wise) as a culmination of some mistakes that Barbara had made during TKJ, or some persistent fatal flaw of hers that she'd not yet overcome. It happened because Moore needed to hurt Batman and Gordon, and she was the easiest way to do it. The result is an event that's moreso divisive to this day because it reflects a lack of foresight by the writer to treat a beloved character with respect -- which would've been to let Barbara's lowest point be about her.
@@morcey7154 these are criticisms made about general sudden death writing. But it's not because she's a woman that it happened. Look at how the avengers movies handled shit like Bucky's enslavement...what was that turned into? A big thing for captain and Tony to fight over. Same for Rhodes legs, turned into 99% motivation for Tony and guilt for Cap. My point is that for Barbara, the only reason the scene gets as much flack, is because she's a woman. Despite claims it's for non-sexist reasons.
Wait a second -- Forearm? Seriously? That character's name is actually Forearm? That's not just you making fun of shitty 90s XTREEEEM comics characters by giving some random no-mark a silly name? Someone, somewhere, actually decided that it was a good idea to name a comic book action hero "Forearm"? And people wonder why comics are basically dying a slow death.
what do you expect, the dude was "created" by rob liefeld. of course he's going to have the character whose power is that he has four arms (that's literally it, look it up) be called forearm, because for rob liefeld, that apparently qualifies as humor.
It's funny because Image started as the biggest offender if what you're talking about, but nowadays they're producing some of the most subtle, thoughtful and compelling stories in comics.
I wonder what Mr. Sexdeath is all about. Maybe he's like, totally normal but just somehow managed to get that really absurd name which of course he tried to convince everyone was pronounced (Sey deeth) or something. So he goes through life like that, continually trying to get everyone to pronounce his name in some other way when he meets the love of his life. She thinks, "He's a really nice guy and smart and successful. The only thing wrong with him is that damn name." and then she has a flashback of her dearly departed mother whose last words were, "If you can't beat em, join em.". So she marries him and only then does she fully embrace her new name and title Mrs. Sexdeath. So of course she rushes to her local s&m dungeon and gay bathhouse to buy her costume and as she dons it she realizes she has the ability to,... well, I don't know what her powers are and since there's little to no information on her online, she could've only been in one or two comics. Which means, she embraces the name and subsequently stops wearing the costume and being Mrs. Sexdeath. She pretty much immediately abandons the idea entirely. She never tells her husband but she still carries the memories of that fun romp she had once with the superheroes... or villains, I don't know which. So, after unsuccessfully getting people to pronounce her name differently, she begs her husband for a legal name change. He agrees. The Smiths are now a happy but boring couple. They moved to a new city where no one knows their name. And as the years pass and there's a few more lines on her face and a few more pounds on her hips, she realizes how ridiculous she'd look in that costume which by now is tragically out of style anyway and despite her fond memory, is pleased with her decision. The end. At least that's what she thought. But all this happened before the internet. Now the local nerd slash marplot discovers her secret and her world is suddenly turned upside down. People laugh and she doesn't know why. She hears wolf whistles only to turn and see no one. And after hearing too many words of hushed conversations, she decides that Mrs. Sexdeath must rise again. After carefully updating her costume, she seduces and subsequently kicks the ever loving shit out of all the gossips, even the women, and makes damn sure no one will ever speak the name of Mrs. Sexdeath again, except by then it was on TH-cam and the story was even picked up by a local news station. She's of course immediately arrested and now must appear as Mrs. Sexdeath and speak out against the dangers of violence as part of her community service agreement. Her husband, Mr. Smith, formerly Mr. Sexdeath doesn't know what to think. He's at first disappointed, then confused, angry, but a little turned on. Ultimately he decides to stand by his beloved wife. The paparazzi are relentless. She becomes more famous than ever before and as a joke, is sought out by the Justice League but they ultimately decide against the idea because some robot attacked Gotham city or something and they had some real work to do at that point. And Mrs. Sexdeath is tragically dragged into a downward spiral of depression, alcoholism and abuse of prescriptions drugs given to her by her now very busy shrink. She gets calls to be on TV shows as Mrs. Sexdeath, mainly so people have some eye candy to ogle. And in a fit of rage, she storms out of her latest TV gig and violently attacks the first person she comes across. And although she doesn't realize it at the time, through a bizarre twist of fate, this man happens to be the notorious criminal mastermind and rapist, Dr. Virginalive. She's applauded as a national hero, she tells her story on 60 Minutes and she authors the best selling novel and autobiography "Life as Mrs. Sexdeath". The Smiths never bothered to change their name back but whenever anyone calls them Mr. and Mr.s Sexdeath, they proudly respond. Mr. Sexdeath even got a costume that he wears only rarely for the few appearances they do. Her book sales coupled with their savings, investments and speaking engagements is enough to live off of. And after 20 years of marriage, they finally gave birth to their first child. A girl. The young Ms. Sexdeath. And the moral of this story is, if you actually read all that, you're either desperately trying to avoid doing some task in which case, GET BACK TO WORK! or you have way too much time on your hands. Get a hobby. 🙂
@@asrieldreemurr1988Well, the career as a freelance absurdist TH-cam commenter is picking up very slowly. I now have 2 readers. I'm glad someone besides me got some enjoyment out of that. Cheers.
This is a good reference video for the discussion of the... embattled is probably the nice way to put it... Cowboy Bebop adaptation by Netflix. It does a lot of the same things as The Killing Joke adaptation, like changing the characters around needlessly (including whitewashing quite a few of the major characters), changing how they talk and the tone of the dialogue, changing the overall theme (more like just removing it entirely and substituting another one), adding needless backstory and prologue to antagonist characters, so much that it actually ends up derailing the plot so much it might as well be fanfiction. They even screwed up the pretty decent female representation of the original as well. And much like The Killing Joke adaptation, it's also lazy, VERY poorly written, and pretty boring.
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
"Smashbeef" looks like an absolute treasure and a beautiful soul. I would read every comic ever written about that good beef boi and his very fashionable pouch shoes.
Make him like Scorpia in the new She-Ra series: tough, intimidating exterior, absolute marshmallow on the inside. He keeps tissues in the pouches because he can't even watch jewelry commercials without getting emotional.
@@ingonyama70 I'd read the shit out of that comic
Smashbeef sounds like a sweetie.
Pretty sure that is a reference to Meat and Dairy podcast its an english comedy podcast!
Hang on--they made a tie-in comic to "Space Mutiny"?
I like Stan trying to get Rob and Todd to think about the characterization part of their "design" and they're just ignoring him like two kids playing with Legos.
It had a very childlike vibe didn't it.
"how many X books do we have now?!"
Honestly, I can hardly blame the guys. If I got paid to zone out like that and just kinda have fun, I probably would.
...
Seriously someone hire me, I'm just as good at writing comics and making characters as Rob Liefeld, I just need to get better at embiggening their shoulders, I'll learn on the job I'm sure!
I really feel for stan. as a writer myself I often find it annoying seeing people who clearly don't care about their art succeeding, seeing them put on such a pedestal as to be on a show like that yet still being unable to think of an actually motive or to even think up an interesting quirk must be infuriating.
@@alyssinclair8598 I know how you feel. As an aspiring writer trying so hard to get everything right; the character arcs, the worldbuilding, etc., it is saddening to see mediocre or bad art get put on a pedestal.
If I was given a name like "Overkill" to work with, my immediate thought would be "Overkill? What would fit the character... how would I best write a character that is literally too much?" And I would probably think something along the lines of someone absurdly strong, but break every bone in their body as recoil or something like that. I would also make it that, personality-wise, they also try too hard and come across as too intense, and it would be treated as an actual issue that the character needs to work through.
Thank you! I'm glad someone else acknowledges, when the Joker says "Why aren't you laughing?" its a really sad moment where hes taken back. In the animated version he feels like hes saying the lines for no reason. Its always good to hear from people who really understand the source material.
I feel almost like they just got Mark Hamill to record whatever he wanted and made the movie based around that. He said he would only do the Joker again if it was for the Killing Joke, so he did his take on the Joker and didn't really stop to consider if it fit the version we see in KJ.
could have been bad direction, too, but who knows at this point
Yeah, I don't think anyone wants to admit it, but Mark Hamill seemed pretty off on a lot of his delivery. Maybe it was bad direction, its hard to tell.
Chris Montgomery it is definitely not good direction, is it? good direction would have fixed what was being changed.
it's always hard to tell with acting though whether the problem's an actor issue or a director issue... i mean, i like to think it's mostly a direction problem because Hamil's done very well in the job and clearly the director is bad but this was real bad, it's possible it could have been a team effort
Thing that still gets me: surely if you wanted to bump up the Killing Joke to theatrical running time and give Batgirl more to do, you could just.....tell the story of Barbara recovering and learning to cope with her disability.
Feel like that deserves its own story tbh
It's like they wanted to skate by the problematic "rape-as-drama" thing by turning Barbara into the focus/protagonist of the story. But she still really isn't, and the whole thing just comes across as stilted, awkward, and thematically muddled.
I’d have there also be midpoint drama scene with her in it that has her go through a serious mental breakdown and get blackmailed into trying to kill batman so the commissioner will finally be released, with it being revealed that she was forced to watch the commissioners torture for hours.
This would tie her into the whole “one bad day” theme, with joker using her moment of weakness as proof of his beliefs.
It would make her role in the plot honestly much more interesting, and add to the plot rather than distract from it.
Like I feel like between my thing and your thing, the story could actually be feature length without writing in bullshit about batman fucking batgirl.
They couldn't do that. THAT would be a good story, and we can't have that. Also then they wouldn't be able to ship the most problematic Bat-ship in the history of the characters, and they REALLY wanted Barbara Gordon and Batman to bang. Just like in Batman Begins.
That'd be almost as dumb. A story having its thematic climax half way through is really just a bad way to tell a story especially for a film
13:03 Joker can actually sense the 4th wall, he's making that face because he knows the movie he's in sucks.
"Man, this adaptation's a bad joke..." - The Joker, during that scene probably.
"All it takes is one bad -day- movie..."
Hahahaha xD
This may be a year late, but that one made me cackle crazily. Also, 666th like, nice.
Alan Moore didn't kill comics. He didn't hand them the rope. He did a stunt and told them not to try this at home, then they tried it at home.
I dunno, in Watchmen he brutally deconstructs superheroes and does not put them back together again at the end or justify their existence. I think he really wanted comics to tell stories about more than superheroes. He didn't expect the imitations that came from his influence.
@@MegaLickitung He further wrote superhero comics for the next 2 decades, even though at least he tried later to pretend that they're pulp heroes, which is different than regular superheroes because reasons.
He was always an edgelord hack that ended his lifelong carreer with comic books about fish rape and Alice in wonderland pedo fantasies.
@@kthy0056 Rape is certainly present in most of his books, though I've never read a story of his in which it was used for titillation. Rape just gets a really strong reaction, it's not necessarily worse than depicting torture and murder in novels. When you read his books he's clearly against sexism, rascism, fascism and homophobia (all this is present in V for Vendetta alone) and was voicing that opinion in the 80's. I don't agree with all of Moore's political opinions and his open attitude to sex is different to most people, but he's not a shithead like other comics writers we could mention (cough Frank Miller cough cough).
@@kthy0056 Alice in Wonderland was written by a pedo, so nice job of missing the point, Sherlock.
@The Antipope There’s no real evidence of Carroll being a pedophile, though.
5:24 wow, Stan Lee asks about the personality and Lifield answers: "he is part machine". Who hired this guy?
He was his own boss actually. That was the appeal of Image Comics: Creator-driven comics.
@@Hawkatana Even if those creators weren't very creative.
@@jonathankent1517 They were artists first, writers second. Doing both wasn't in their strengths.
Well, Liefeld wasn't good at art either, as you saw.
@@Hawkatana He was still at Marvel when that was recorded.
and stan lee going "what makes him different to tough guys like wolverine" That's an awesome question. I'd think for a secound. Yea how is he different. Ok How about he gets to excited when fighting has to much and enjoys himself to much. And the team get anoying with him and have to try and get to turn it down a bit?
OMG the way stan lee is passive aggressively asking if this design is communicating anything unique or human about his personality? and ligntfeild is like "umm idk, what do you mean?"
I'm just replying so you can see how much likes you got
@@afellowpotatoGood idea!! I'll help!!! ^w^
The good news about cable at least is once other artists got a hold of him, he actually became a pretty good character, but not because of liefeld.
@henith7850 you could say that of all of Rob’s popular characters… all two of them.
@@TwoTwig True.
This was an incredible analysis, but in my opinion the worst part of this movie is how the Batgirl prologue changes Bruce's motivations from "Joker hurt my friend, my student, my surrogate daughter" to "Joker hurt my friend with benefits, my fucktoy, my surrogate daughter".
The dynamic of their relationship and the emotional context for Bruce's turmoil is fundamentally altered and made so much more shallow by the added prologue.
This is why fanfiction should never be adapted in professional media
@@RandomSkyeRoses that's how we got 50 shades. A fanfiction based on another fanfiction.
@@hansakkerman2611 And look how that turned out
@@RandomSkyeRoses Dominic Noble did an indepth analysis, it nearly cost him his sanity.
I would disagree with fucktoy. She initiated, and its suppose to only be 1 time. Also, it was mentioned in Batman beyond her and bruce had an intimate relationship. I just think this was the wrong movie and the wrong Batverse to include this. She doesn't become oracle in that universe. So i agree with that part of the prologue being out of place.
“A Liefeld character without shoulder pads is almost naked.”
The most accurate statement in the history of statements.
Don't forget pouches! Needless pouches everywhere that are never used!
Far from a liefield stan but callin him The Worst for being a bad artist is a bit much
No he isn’t. The times were
@@SapphWolf And pointless straps! Thigh straps! Bicep straps! Nipple straps! What are they strapping? Who cares?! S T R A P S !
Don't forget those strange cyber-earmuff-chinguard things he throws on all his heroes too.
Was I the only one ANNOYED by the fact that basically every female shown in this movie was voiced by Tara Strong? Don’t get me wrong, I love her but..why? It takes away from the main character she’s voicing when you start hearing background characters voiced by her and even the Joker’s female lackies. How tight is their budget??
They took influence from Bethesda
Did you see the animation? Probably shoestring at best
This happens a lot with shows. It's like they paid so much for tara strong that they couldn't get anyone else. Samurai Jack has this problem with Strong voicing 12 separate characters with a few being major characters. Even if for one episode.
They got Hamill, Conroy, and Strong. That's gotta be at least half a fortune for a whole movie.
They brought back Mark Hamill for this movie while he was in the midst of production for TFA/TLJ, that’s probably where the budget went
"shatterstar, wildmane, warwolf" this is a list of somebody's warrior cat OCs
Lmao, this great.
DONT REMIND ME OF MY FUCKING WARRIOR PHASE I BEG OF YOU
Maybe not Warwolf…….did the clans ever seen wolves?
@@zafool4997 there are background cats named Wolfstep and Wolfheart so it'd probably work
SO FUNNY😭
Bruh, the shade that Stan Lee was throwing in that show was classic. He was taking all kind of subliminal shots at them lol.
Shows the wit this guy has
Even calling the character OverKill was shade. RIP Stan
@@planetslime To be fair, OverKill would be a great name for a joke/ one time use villain if the intent was specifically to impose that sort of "beefy shoulder pad man" idea in the mind of a hero. Maybe some teenage supervillain wannabe, fresh out of designing some crazy automaton (colored black and red obvs) capable of mass destruction, who picked the name because he's a teenager and his sense of artistic taste hasn't developed yet
Stan Lee saw the issue, and was like "I'm going to throw it in this guy's face on broadcast television just to see if I can humiliate him into getting it.
@Shin Shaman "At least Overkill sounds menacing and cool." I mean, maybe if your taste is mid-2000s Deviantart OCs and all the Grimderpiest parts of WH40K.
To be fair it was kind of amazing to see Liefield come up with 50 different ways to say "cyborg" while drawing on camera
The Walking Thesaurus is his secret alias.
It's hilarious how Stan Lee can't help but make fun of Rob even in a puff piece designed to advertise Rob, lol.
Stan Lee wasn't a BSer apparently.
Yeah
Stan was a BOSS, that's why.
a number two numbers wait did he die??
OutplayedX it’s been half a year. Sadly, yes.
Can you imagine if Gordon went out of his way to help Harvey get his coin back to symbolize his dormant respect for his old friend and maybe later on show him feeling a little more at peace thanks to Gordon's help to maybe show that sometimes a good day can help someone feel better again? They could have built upon their story but instead they watered it down
I've rewatched this a few times and _every_ time, I practically say, "come on, Jim, please just give him his damn coin back," out loud. He literally can't function _at all_ without it.
That’s a great idea, it even seems like that’s what the shot is building up to, and that’s what someone who really understood the comic would do
Robert Liefeld lookin like a janitor who's about to solve a math equation in a Harvard classroom but then he just draws a shirtless dude with no feet
And Todd McFarlane is like...
"You know what the best part of my day is? For about ten seconds, from when I pull up to the curb when I get to your door.
Cause I think maybe I'll get up there and I'll knock on the door and you won't be there.
No goodbye, no see you later no nothing. Just left.
I don't know much, but I know that."
How do you like dem assholes?
lol
I was literally thinking the same thing
@@havendotcom I know right!n
5:07
Stan: "How would you say that his personality would be different from all our other tough guys, like Wolverine and all the others?"
Rob: "Well, see, he's -"
Stan: "And Cable."
Rob: "..."
I honestly felt kind of bad for him. I won't speak to anything other than the fact it must have been annoying having Stan right over his shoulders pressuring him.
@@Lastofthefreenames Might just be my impression but I don't think it was Stan who was forcing him to draw the same character ad literal nauseum.
@@vetreas366 Granted him instantly jumping to "literally just Cable" is very mockable, but in the situation he's in, drawing in real time on a show while his boss is asking him to write lore on the spot for a brand new character, I see why it wasn't the most imaginative thing ever.
@@vetreas366 the actual process for creating characters needs at least a few hours of pre writing beforehand on the universe they’re in (if not already established) character traits and investigation into what kinds of clothes a character could wear.
I know you probably think the artist doesn’t do any of that, but I’d like to point out they likely didn’t tell him to prep beforehand and write up a character; the way he talks makes it sound like he’s doing this on the spot. Speaking from personal experience, making characters out of nothing is hell and you usually default to something you like or something you usually draw.
I fully agree that 30 minutes for a good/finished character and world is too little.
However, 30 minutes to do a little brainstorming, sketches, explaining the things you may want to consider when creating a character and finishing at a rough idea of what a character could be should arguably doable. Especially since most Superhero comics are set in vaguely present day or slightly in the past America.
Things like considering background, powers and the implications of them, how you figure out outfits, what kind of threats they'd be up against and such.
"Okay, so one thing you have to consider eventually is the background of a character, their age, the society they grew up in. So, let's say superheroes are a known thing, it's normal that there are some, but they're not common enough that people expect to know one, much less become one themselves...So this guy was in college when he first discovered that he could teleport, yea, lots of potential for drama there. He practiced in secret for a few months and...IDK, let's shelf the "Why is he a superhero" bit for now, sometimes you just gotta let things settle and figure out other stuff to get the right idea. "
So the main thing he's concerned with is...let's say there are some sort of biological threats, zombies, mutated giant frogs and such, maybe sprinkle in a few Vampires..."
"Now teleportation could be used as a weapon, but usually that's be kinda lethal, so let's go with him learning some sort of normal combat skills, give him a weapon; let's go with easy to procure, maybe some length of steel or a bat. Maybe ease off on the super spandex in the beginning, let's figure out something a little more cobbled together. Maybe make it a plot point for him to get in touch with others, get access to better tech later on, but in the beginning we might be talking scarf, sunglasses and a sturdy jacket."
I had my mom listen to this video in the car because it's amazing, and we ended up pausing it partway through to discuss what kind of character we'd come up with if given the name "Overkill". If memory serves, we came up with a stiff, overly organized/pristine businessman. Basically like the extreme of the skinny nerd type, who's power wasn't in how hard they could punch, but how thoroughly they did... whatever. Ruining your reputation, getting rid of a problematic witness, etc. would be done far past the point of "good enough" or "job completed". And he definitely wouldn't have shoulder pads. Unless they were in the business suit or something, idk.
Icewine Rose your mom sounds awesome. Glad you guys have such a wholesome relationship. Truly this is goals haha. Also your overkill actually sounds really interesting. I’ve always wanted more intellectually powerful heroes like the one you came up with.
Sounds good.
Icewine Rose Somehow I had a similar idea.
i had an idea of a tiny girl or a lanky guy w/ destructive powers who actually dont want to hurt anyone but one time accidentally demolished their pursuers (i dunno some evil scientists maybe) too much and now theyre called overkill. they dont like it at all but it keeps people at bay, which is both bad and good, good becaus they dont want fighting, bad because they want friends :(
Sounds like an off-brand Kingpin. However, write and market this Wall Street "Overkill" smartly, and you'd have yourself a serious contender.
"A Liefeld character without shoulder pads is almost naked."
God bless you Stan Lee.
He's iconic.
the same guy who made stripperella
@@thegreatscribbles960
I am very curious to know why Striperella is used as Stan Lee's Standard's Level of Writing?
@@thegreatscribbles960Stripperella is a thousand times better than what Liefeld could create
Later that day, Stan was the one who created that character.
Don't trash my favorite superhero: Settlers of Catan
sonikmuff uhh he's an anti hero. Fake fan.
_Six sides of pain_
Robbie Liddle ANOTHER FUCKING SEVEN AAAAAAAAHH
@@albertgore7435 Anyone got an ore for a sheep?
Fränzchen Herbert I got wood for sheep. Anybody? Wood for sheep.
Wow. Rob Liefeld looks a lot like Matt Damon in that Overkill footage. Come to think of it, I've never seen the two of them in the same room before either. Coincidence? Yes.
Especially if you frame Damon like Colin Quinn did:
"You have the two best friends, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, you know, they wrote the movie together, Good Will Hunting, but you know it was Ben Affleck that did all the typing, you know, while Matt Damon was on the bed doing hammer curls, all right? You can just see Affleck hunched over the computer like Ben Kingsley in Schindler's List, you know? While the arrogant, two-time Matt Damon, the spawn of beer hall fascism and Sid Field screenwriting books, sits on the balcony like Ray Fiennes in his bathrobe shooting at people."
I think he looks more like Jesse Plemons, AKA Meth Damon, and they look more like each other than either of them ever looked like Matt.
Him and Ben Afleck do a series about the adventures of apples-man
He also looks 17 in that clip even though he was born in fucking 1967 or something
Lol I thought he looked like Creepy Todd from Breaking Bad
Fun thing is that the basic character designs in Watchmen aren't even that edgy. They're similarly silly to many classic designs. There's not a single design similar to Overkill's pure "so dark and conflicted" thing.
but the plot was so make the characters match the plot or lack of one
Nathan Bisbo
What?
And that was kind of the whole point (also Moore originally wanted to use Steve Ditko's characters)
People forget that, despite scenes that have a noir tone, Watchmen was a pretty friggin colourful comic.
Yeah but Liefeld isn't directly inspired by Moore, he wasn't even trying to imitate his style and I feel like hbomberguy just added him in because he wanted an excuse to dunk on him. Comics that were actually inspired by Killing Joke and TDKR would the (varying in quality) grim takes on classic DC heroes from the 90s and 2000s which didn't necessarily share the style of Liefeld. Liefeld's style is more stylized and action focused, as compared to the more edgy in subject matter and "deconstructive" takes of DC comics post-Moore. Rob was actually inspired by Frank Miller, though.
I think you really glossed over one of the important points of the great comics of the 80s, they ended. The writers had an idea, explored it, and then when they had said what they wanted to say wrapped it up. Watchman has it's climax, the ideas are mostly wrapped up, and then it makes one final point about strong principles, the consensus, and that some people can't compromise without destroying their self. The very idea of the ending in and of itself has a purpose, to bring clarity to the argument and to let other voices come to the table.
The fact that The Killing Joke ends was not an invitation to retell The Killing Joke 100 times, but to respond to the killing joke. There have been amazing comics that have followed in the footsteps of The Killing Joke, but they did it by knowing the ideas they wanted to explore and when they were done. It might be one issue, or it might be eighty issues, but there are people who learnt the lesson and tell mature and interesting stories. The care and craft is there, and it is once again being found.
It’s worth noting here that professional critical punching bag and symbol of all things bad Rob Liefeld has major issues with story structure. In books like youngblood, he utterly fails to introduce characters or settings and… things just kind of happen for the run of any given issue. Villains appear and fights occur. Then the book is over. Sometimes villains leave for no reason. Nothing gets resolved, of course, so you have a book that effectively has NO BEGINNING, NO MIDDLE, AND NO END.
@@Fluffkitscripts I guess that probably makes him some form of messianic figure inside the industry and is the reason why it kept him despite his total inability to draw feed.
But we got the wonders of 90s comic: so weird that it’s enjoyable
(At least to me)
“80 issues” is that a sandman reference
@@trickster80 no, I literally just picked a nice round number that would last for multiple years. I was also considering 120, 128, and 69.
"The appearance of depth mattered more than the real stuff."
That just got me. Good stuff.
nc your here
Like watching The Shawshank Redemption. It looks so mature until you realize its just poorly written crap.
What, in your opinion, is a depth filled movie? Your favorite, even?
I think Fight Club strikes that balance between fun and depth. It's as deep as you want it to be, but on the surface it **can be** just about a guy trying to make sense of the world. But you can also take it as a commentary on modern masculinity. And there are lots of layers to it when you watch it again.
Oh, the Christopher Nolan business model.
The absolute final irony of it all is Moore himself has indeed lamented the final effect Watchman would have on the comics industry. Not necessarily that it made it "dark and edgy," but part of his impetus for making it was to show how you could do something new and interesting with medium. A medium which to that point (with a few notable exceptions) had kind of stagnated. Layered narratives, re-imaging older characters to be more nuanced, complex stories, taking risks with the concepts and styles. Watchmen did indeed show what comics could be if artists and writers used some imagination and had some guts.
And from that we ended up with 90s where good guys being bad guys, bad guys being worse guys, and upping the sex, gore, and profanity was considered being "mature."
And the pouches. Oh god man...the pouches.
Dont forget the belts.....and the zippers
He showed them just what the medium could do if someone put enough thought, care and effort into telling stories in it, and unfortunately, just about everyone who followed took all the wrong lessons from it.
The biggest issue is the fact that they decontruct but forget to put them back together so it turns into character assassination
Isn't this the nature of anything unique and popular though? Better to have done and influenced than to not.
@@Lastofthefreenames One can look at it that way. And there is some merit to it. Once a new trend is finds footing imitators will inevitably follow to copy and cash in on it. Often with varying degrees of success until the trend burns itself out and a new one starts.
What's interesting in this case though is the trend can be traced back to a handful of progenitors (Moore's work among them) and you can trace very easily how quickly the imitators that followed ultimately missed the original point. Watchmen in particular has a lot going on under the hood (no pun intended.) It deconstructs a bevvy of superhero tropes and conventions, pointing out their flaws, exploring their implications, each character representing one or two classic iconic archetypes and asking "What would someone like this actually be like? What kind of person would they be behind the mask?" Because that's what the story was really about. Not people being Superheroes, but Superheroes being people. And the result is...we'll go with less than inspiring.
Niteowl II is an ascended fanboy who only feels cool when he puts on the suit. Silk Spectre II is a pageant kid being lived through vicariously by her mom. Comedian is a sadist and bully who uses costumed adventuring as an excuse to hurt people. Rorschach is mentally unbalanced and ideological fanatic. Ozzy has a messiah complex and delusions of grandeur. Dr Manhattan has the powers of a god but has lost his humanity. And that's not counting the racism, sexism, and homophobia simmering among them and various original members of the Minute Men.
Now this isn't to say they themselves are one note stereotypes themselves, even with their flaws. They have nuance and depth to them. Comedian of all people calls out Manhattan on his moral erosion when he fails to stop Eddie from murdering a pregnant woman, keeps the secret of Laurie's true parentage, and is legit horrified at discovering Adrian's plan. Rorschach openly admits that he can be "difficult" and shows appreciation for Dan's continued friendship. Dan and Laurie do indeed help people from a burning building and risk their necks to bust Rorschach out of jail. But the underlying point through all the characters is that, with the possible exception of Nite Owl I, all them have baggage and damage. Each one, to the last, does indeed fight for "Truth, Justice, and all that stuff," but their motives for doing it are less than noble.
Now, in isolation and its own self contained universe that's an interesting idea and premise. And it honestly isn't even a really new one. Strictly speaking, Marvel had been doing the "heroes with personal problems" as far back as Spider Man and the Fantastic Four. Hell, more himself played with some of concepts when he did his Miracle Man run. But Watchmen hit with such a splash and at just the right point that "heroes with problems" became the order of the day. Heroes had to be "real." They had to be "mature." And the imitators quickly glomped on that if "heroes with problems" was the next big thing, then "heroes who had nothing but problems" would be even better. And you see this reflected in the various "dark and edgy" takes on various established heroes, certain already "dark and edgy" characters getting more prominence, a deluge of "modern" and "next generation of heroes" characters, and a cranking up of profanity, sex, and violence to distinguish themselves as comics "not just being for kids anymore." And with the rise of the speculator boom everyone was clamoring to get on the gravy train.
In retrospect though it becomes clearly obviously this trend's success wasn't due to the works of Moore, but in spite of it.
The imitators picked up the surface details and aesthetics but missed a lot of the underlying point. Once the shock and awe of those "mature" (more like adolescent) works had faded there...really wasn't much to the new characters themselves and few changes to the older ones really stuck. Most were quickly scrapped, forgotten, or put on busses never to be seen again, or became fodder for "dork age" inside jokes. Those few that survived did so only by being almost completely retooled from the ground up. And attempts to revive them or the overall aesthetic has been met with...mixed success at best. *cough*BVS*cough.*
So while you're not wrong, in the case of comics I think the interesting part is being able to track what you describe while at the same time examining it for how it went "right" despite getting everything so wrong. An object lesson in how "popular" doesn't necessarily mean "good" and the inherent shelf life of certain trends.
That's my take at least.
Can’t blame Matt Damon for being a bad artist, he’s an actor
I'm not the only one who thought that too then LOL.
He looked like todd from breaking bad
@@bobbyb4024 omggg, they are the same person
@@juansal4438 CUAU
I was thinking "Oh wow, that kid got a chance to draw on TV with Stan Lee and Rob Liefield! Oh wait, that's Rob?"
Seriously he looks 16 or so, it's upsetting.
As much as I adore what Bruce Timm has done for batman, him being a massive Bruce/Barbara shipper will always be a massive blemish
He’s also a massive Bruce/Wonder Woman shipper, which is also awful.
@@DeltaAssaultGaming Batman/Catwoman is the one true ship, unfortunately Batman must be forever miserable to ensure the status quo
I have a visceral response to seeing them animate Batman with those 50+ y/o double cheeks, standing in front of the young woman he is a mentor to and has slept with
I have heard the argument that supposedly most of the projects where that ship is, Timm wasn't directly involved in those projects, or at least, not the writer for those projects. For my part, I don't know if that's factual. I'm just repeating a counter-argument about that particular topic of discussion.
@@DeltaAssaultGaming what's so bad about Wonderbat?
The animation in this is really just unforgivable. You can make budget animation distinct and stylized, but this not only looks like any D-tier DC animated straight to dvd flick, but it looks genuinely worse than most of those do.
as a non-comic fan i genuinely thought it was just some popular movie made from scratch due to the quality of animation being worse than 'the amazing spider man'
And the crazy thing is that it probably would have been easier for them to copy Alan Moore's work.
I tried reading the Venom origin story comics, but I was driven insane by how *every single character* just explained their emotions and motivations to the reader. At first I started to think all comics were like that.
Glad I'm not alone
YUP, THE 2017 RUN IS SO MUCH BETTER
Yeah, not every character needs to do a monologue, lol. That sounds ridiculous.
OMG VENOM ORIGIN STORY COMICS WAS WRITTEN BY HIM????? no clue why I couldn't finish reading all of that
Lmfaooo can you imagine if people in real life talked like that?
“My name is Michael and this morning, I forgot my sandwich at home, it saddens me deeply to think I am about to dine in this filthy diner, but I’ve learned that life doesn’t give you lemons - it sprays them in your eyes instead”
“Sir this is a Wendy’s”
Hey, I will take monologues over self aware jokes.
I feel that the treatment of women in comics is part of a general problem that comic writers seem to have, where to shake up the status quo, they just can't have positive changes anymore. Every shake up has to involve characters dying, becoming disabled, breaking up romantic couples, going insane, losing limbs, losing loved ones, and so on and so on. Writers can't seem to let characters stay happy for more than an issue or two.
Well, yeah, but that also specifically manifests in mistreatment of women that doesn't really happen to a lot of male characters.
@@ravenfrancis1476 ??? Men die all the time for the sake of the plot tho lol
Yeah cause they have no idea how to write conflict
@@LaerHeiSeiRyuu Not to the point where it’s basically the only way their story ends.
someday there should be a big shake up in a comic where idk lex luthor decides to turn good and become best friends with clark -again- and he comes over every other day to have dinner with him and lois and there's just a solid run of several issues of them being bros and lex being v out of touch w normal ppl like come on clark it's just one tractor how much can it cost, ten million dollars?
or lois being like lex you've engineered hundreds of different death machines but you don't know how to use a toaster? and lex is like look I always asked Mercy to do it I just assumed she burnt it with her ferocious glare or smth
and after a bit, there's a threat again, and the audience is like oh okay now it gets serious again but then lois and lex lecture and bribe/threaten the bad guy while clark stands behind them w his arms crossed looking v Intimidating and then they all go out for a late lunch bc that only took the first half of the issue
that's way more unexpected and interesting than killing off a character or having them break up or clark turning evil for a bit or whatever other bs the writers came up with in their desperate attempt to keep the edgy shock factor that they seem to think is the epitome of good writing
-(also lex and clark should be dating too bc clark has two hands and lois and lex would get along amazingly as the snarky asshole best friend duo dc please im begging you)-
Okay but "Depth doesn't spurt from the wounds of your enemies" is not only raw as hell, but something a lot of people need to hear
Don't leave out the best part... "or Batman's dick."
Or Batman's dick
LESSON: "Dark and edgy" does not equal mature and interesting.
Since the 90s, tonnes of superhero stuff has aped the aesthetic of Moore and co.'s dark stuff. But they seemed to think the darkness itself was what made those stories deep and "adult", not the fact that they had fascinating things to say about the human condition or that they subverted many of the dominant superhero tropes of their time.
It's no surprise that Alan Moore's work after the 1980s is a lot more hopeful and less cynical in tone. He's been trying to subvert the new orthodoxy.
Don't go pissing on Mrs. Sexdeath!
I don't know if this is a lesson that will ever be fully absorbed.
unless she's up for it anyway m i rite
You're right that aesthetic is irrelevant to quality, Bryon. I think I speak for everyone when I say that I absolutely agree. However, It really is a shame that people dismiss bright, charming and cutesy content simply because it's different. The world needs more optimism right now, and this obsession with darkness is turning escapism into a chore.
You, know I've always struggled to explain to people why I did not care for Zack Snyder's Watchmen adaptation when it was so "faithful", and your comment made me realize why and perfectly encapsulates my feelings: it was "faithful" only on the most superficial level. Sure, some shots were lifted right out of the comic. But while the move reveled in the "darkness" and "edginess" of the comic, it completely missed the point of the comic. At best, all the themes and explorations of the comic were an afterthought in the movie. At worst, it completely flipped those themes to fit Zack Snyder's worldview (and look no further MoS and BvS to see what that worldview is). This is perfectly exemplified by how he treated Rorschach and Ozymandias. Snyder seems to be one of those people with a misguided adoration of a character who is supposed to be subversion of the Batman trope- a fascist, sociopathic vigilante. The movie completely removed or downplayed Rorschach's most overtly fascist and bigoted lines in favor of the more "acceptable" neo-conservatism you find in Dark Knight Rises, MoS and BvS. Ozymandias, on the other hand, was reduced to the "sissy villain" trope.
You can really feel the sarcasm and growing contempt in Stan Lee's voice during that show with Macfarlane and Liefeld.
the movie is like this really weird attempt to get the woman out of the fridge while simultaneously shoving her in
Yeah, I didn’t mind giving Batgirl a larger role, but the way they did it was not it
A fridge with a nice clear glass door?
"It's kind of amazing that they managed to adapt a comic so badly that they added half an hour of pointless filler to pad for time, while taking out the most interesting parts." Literally EVERY attempt at adapting Alan Moore's works.
Justice League Unlimited: Am I a joke to you?
@@anthonykoslowski5346 And that one episode is basically the only time anyone has done an adaptation of one of his stories that he's approved of.
That, and supposedly Harry Partridge's Saturday Morning Watchmen though it's hard to find official proof of that. The artist at the very least got a kick out of it.
@@anthonykoslowski5346 The exception in a sea of examples, I assume
That montage of edgelord superheroes kind of blurred together until I swore I heard "ShatterSad", and promptly imagined a much better comic where the Youngblood team was actually based around making people happy by kicking sadness' ass instead of, y'know, slaughtering people.
That actually sounds pretty interesting, but how would they kick sadness' ass? would they be fighting a supervillain/organization named sadness or would they go all anime magical girl style and fight living embodiments of sadness to protect and save people?
@@bluemonster5235 The second option sounds like it could be fun.
@@hyperpowerfulform5132 it does
Funny thing all have potential to be good they only need some effort. Latest prophet re boot prove it can be done
@@bluemonster5235 The second one is strangely similar to persona 3 just replace sadness with apathy and magical girl transformations with stands and that pretty much covers it
Its now forever scarred into my being that Batman fukt his friends daughter.
why, who thought this was a good idea
She's not just his friend's daughter; she's also his adoptive son's ex. That just adds another layer of creepiness to it.
The DC animated universe did it first and they added on a love triangle with nightwing and a miscarriage.
Also, the whole fact that Bruce's lack of family and corrupted childhood has led to a character who's allies are really "adoptive" family. The whole "Bruce is the mask, Batman is the face" thing is only half true. Batman wears an emotional facade to allies (and foes) hes not close to, Bruce wears a facade to the public and most of his "friends", only when you see him with his closest allies (The Bat-fam) do you see the true face of Batman/Bruce - a broken child who is doing everything in his nature to preserve or redeem the innocence, he personally lost, in others.
So essentially you have a man whos main ideal is preserving innocence, especially to his extended family - having sex with someone he thinks of as his daughter who he feels needs protection, who he met when she was a child, is the actual daughter of one of his closest friends, and is the lover of his figurative and literal adopted son... yikes and no thanks..
Edit: its not just creepy - it fundamentally breaks his character. Are you really telling me he doesnt have the self-control to keep it in his pants with his "daugher"/son's lover, but does have the self-control to not kill the man who just ruined that same girls life? Or to not give up the mantle to be with the several other ex/current-lovers he actually has a connection with? What??
@NihilisticEntropy Its exactly what billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne would've done lol
@NihilisticEntropy Lol
I remember my sister taking me to see this in the theater when it came out for my birthday and coming out having enjoyed it bit also a little angry. Mostly anger about the terrible romance and also the fact they gave her a sexy bra and not a sports bra. It shows the lack of thought put into the heroine having her running around as batgirl in an underwire
I like how giving men physically impossible abs is okay, but women having breasts defy physics is too much.
That’s not want they said they said that kind of bra was bad to fight crime in
@@lProN00bl Lol *two* separate strawmen in one comment alone, how do you even do this
@@deliarebaudengo5440 Because you drank too much saw people use the word strawman so just started claiming people have two strawmen in on comment because you thought that's how the internet works. Go back to bed.
@@lProN00bl You can Google what it means it's not too hard I promise
The point of the killing joke is that the joker is coping by believing that everyone is just like him and he’s wrong. Gordon doesn’t become evil after and that happens to him and neither does Barbara that’s the point it’s an optimistic story, and forces people like joker and Harvey Dent to take responsibility for their own choices
That's why I've always felt like Two-Face should have been the villain in The Killing Joke. Because of the Killing Joke, The Joker now has the reputation of being an armchair psychologist, but before The Killing Joke, The Joker was mostly known as a guy who takes pranks WAAAY too far. While Two-Face is the guy with a philosophy to preach and a point to make, Joker just wants to end your life because he finds it funny.
Christopher Nolan's _The Dark Knight_ gets it right, actually, because it appeases the emo kids who also think 2019 _Joker_ is deep for espousing (the laziest possible) social commentary while laying out The Joker for what he truly is. Despite the regurgitated spiel that The Joker delivers to Batman in the interrogation room about how similar they are, he doesn't really care whether or not anyone agrees with what he's saying, even if he really believes that he is similar to Batman. The Joker in that movie really isn't an anarchist because of ideological motivations, rather he merely enjoys seeing the world burn. I like to think that the only reason he compares himself to Batman is to mess with Batman's head, because messing with someone as principled as Batman is funny to him, even if that wasn't what Nolan intended with that scene.
People have pointed out that The Joker's plan in _The Dark Knight_ is more overengineered that one would expect for someone who is as chaotic as The Joker proclaims himself to be, and while I also don't believe that's intentional by Nolan, I do think it adds to the character rather than detracting from it, because yeah, like I've been saying, The Joker doesn't care about being ideologically consistent, he just orchestrates chaos because it's funny to him. Harvey Dent on the other hand is actually the more principled anarchist, and so it's only natural that he would try to prove to everyone that he's actually not that insane, and he would be the one to try to convince them to join his side, not The Joker.
Side rant about 2019 _Joker_ since I'm in the mood: Nearly every Batman villain is some vengeful social outcast, and Arthur Fleck could have turned into the freaking Mad Hatter and the story would have still made sense, because that's how generic of a Batman villain Arthur Fleck is. 2019 _Joker_ removes anything and everything that makes The Joker unique in the comics. The fact that Joker isn't seeking revenge, and that he genuinely finds your suffering funny is what makes him uniquely scary. The origin story only ends up humanizing an inherently inhumane character. The Joker is supposed to represent pure chaotic evil, so just let him do that. His origin story is so irrelevant, it would be more productive to learn about the frequency of The Joker's bowel movements than it would be to understand his backstory. I'm so tired of writers trying to overcomplicate and convolute The Joker. The beauty of the character is in his simplicity. Just as Batman's character is also fairly straightforward. Anytime The Joker gets an origin story, it's missing the point of the character, and the story usually ends up being SUUUPER derivative. 2019 _Joker_ should not be getting a sequel after the snooze-fest that was the first one, and I really hope people hate the sequel so that we don't have to get any more. I can at least say that I am certainly not watching the sequel, not because I hated the first movie so much, rather because I hate the praise that it gets from people who automatically give a movie more credit for being a tragedy because all they watch is mainstream stuff.
@@youtubeviolatedme7123what do you think of the actual killing joke comic then? Do you think it stands out in any good ways with what it actually does? And I agree I think the killing joke still does work but I think it is as deep as the Joker should ever get. You said it best all that extra stuff complicates him and takes away from his fear factor I think it only works in the killing joke because without it I think it would be harder to interpret the point he's trying to make and it would be impossible to emphasize with him at the end when him and Batman talk then he kinda kills him then jk lol didnt kill him.
@@youtubeviolatedme7123Also! You seem well informed so bruh how is Jason called the Red Hood as an homage to the Joker's origin if no one's supposed to know his origin? I think I must just be missing something right??
"He's gotta be a man with a thick neck" you got the name Overkill and you *didn't* think of a drag queen who looks like zombie Marie Antoinette? I'm wasting away over here for want of grimdark scream queen Overkill unleashing horrifying vengeance on criminals in her city (and also she's not a gay joke, just legit terrifying).
A tragedy I never knew I needed until this instant. She sounds like the hottest of messes and I adore her already.
Let's fucking make it happen man!
In the immortal words of Philip J. Fry: "Shut up and take my money!"
That would actually be really interesting, Marie Antoinette was as much a victim of the revolution as her and other nobility were causes for it. The fevor and hate for the noble class so great that they accused her of sexually abusing her own child just to have her excecuted. An accusation she dismissed with equal parts terror, rage, indignation, and sadness, even attempting to appeal to the other mothers, begging them to understand that whatever sins she and her husband committed, she was never so low and evil as to do something like that to her own child. She was of course still executed.
A hero who both fights against criminals and robbers without impunity, yet also slightly hates the common folk, who remind her of the nuanced cruelty of the french revolution. Question being, would she be in france? Could she handle looking at those people?
@@mr.dantastic5073 The depth here is so cool I LOVE the layers, this character and her story have so much potential. I feel like she could be a good critique of like the billionaire superhero trope, and also probably girlboss feminism that prioritizes individual achievement over real intersectional goals.
One thing about the characters Liefeld creates...they become much better when taken out of Liefeld's hands.
Cable went from a gruff cliche mercenary to one of the most psychologically complicated, self-aware, and sympathetic members of the X-Men thanks to writers post-Liefeld. Deadpool was a fairly one-dimensional cliche wisecracker before Joe Kelly turned him into the over-the-top self-referential screwball we know today. And when Shatterstar went from being an uninteresting cliche X-Adjacent to a character who was not only LGBT+, but in an unconventional relationship with fellow X-Force alumnus Rictor, suddenly his popularity took off. (Liefeld's gone on record saying he'd change Shatterstar back if he could, which in itself is enough to alienate me from him completely)
Is there such a thing as Death of the Author in comics? Because Liefeld's a great example of why there should be.
I don't know comics well, but according to Liefeld, he wrote shatter star to be asexual, which is an orientation, as well as aromantic (he did not use that term but it's clear). Now, I cannot tell if he had any real understanding or asexuality and aromanticism, but that is what he said
Death of the author is applicable across all artistic media.
Don't forget Glory and Supreme (The Wonder Woman and Superman "homages") who Alan Moore and Joe Keatinge both remade and made virtually indistinguishable as Liefield creations by the simple act of giving them personalities, let alone coherent stories and character arcs.
@@Zshugost One could even say that there is a subtype to Death of the Author, which is that Alan Moore is the Murderer of the Author. I would have put the qualifier "bad" there, but the League is just one proof that Moore can knock it out of the park just as well with high quality original material.
@Curt Clark I'd argue that it was Fabian Nicieza that actually made both Cable and Deadpool into 3 dimensional characters. he managed to somehow make Cable more human and relatable, but also gave Deadpool a real reason to exist within the 616 mainstream universe.
that he also gave us Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool should not be overlooked :D
The batgirl segment isn't just filler, it's also supposed to be a specific response to the woman-in-refrigerator criticism of the source material, that Barbara gets crippled in this book that has, other then that, just absolutely nothing to do with her. So they add this whole opening segment to make the story more about her, but backfires so bloody spectacularly, because instead this movie is basically a Batgirl movie until she gets shot, then she just falls out of the plot completely? It only puts a spotlight on how pointless her inclusion in the original story was, while simultaneously fialing in every other possible aspect and dumping on Barbara's character in a plethora of terrible new ways.
This is exactly my problem with it, thank you for putting it into words.
It changes one important thing. In this version, Oracle is not a consequence of the original story. Oracle was a path she'd decided on before it happened. Getting shot didn't change that plan.
In trying to make it less sexist they made it more sexist by adding the "man has magical penis and totally changes woman's personality by having sex with once" trope.
It makes Barbra look like a whiny brat who just to impress and bone her mentor, if anything it actually sexualises her more than the comic did.
Exactly.
I think a way to make the Overkill character work is to simply have him be happy. The series could focus on Overkill's life not just as a supervillain but also as a regular dude. he puts on the broken half robot half human persona when he is out committing crime but he's actually just a very well put together and chill dude. It could be used to make fun of 90's stereotypes while being a pretty new and interesting concept.
That sounds eerily close to Red Death from 'The Venture Bros'. Which isn't a bad thing. Red Death is iconic.
honestly, and you pointed this out briefly, the thing that keeps jumping out to me is how neutered the aesthetics are in the movie. the art of the graphic novel pushes the joker's facial expressions to their limits - he looks, literally, horrific. and it's incredible ! each panel w him has this completely unrestrained *feeling*, and it really gives u a sense of how the authors and artists thought of the joker and what he represented to them. it also really serves to make him stand out in the story, as compared to the other characters who, while stylized, look mostly, well, human. he looks and feels like something that's so close to being like the rest of them, but just maybe a few inches off the mark, which is a perfect representation of his story. to me, it's a testament to the incredible visual storytelling present throughout the entire thing, from the composition to the coloring.
meanwhile, the animation in the movie looks so... bland. i won't say lazy, bc that's unfair to animators, bc it's almost definitely the fault of a poor budget rather than poor effort, but it's really such a shame. the original killing joke is so interesting, in so many ways, and the movie really just fucking nerfs all of them.
4yrs 561 likes 1 comment
cable's not a cyborg he has robot eczema
That's still a cyborg.
@@blindbeholder9713 Don’t you think that might have been a joke, champ?
You know what's truly ironic? After most of the Image guys who founded it moved back to Marvel & DC, or went about other business ventures, Image eventually has had a real golden age with a lot of strange, interesting and off-the-wall ideas, as well as a lot of great creators making really fantastic comics.
Strange considering two of the primary founders were MacFarlane and Leifeld. (And Jim Lee, but he's the reason I got into art and comics and I still love him)
leifeld was forced out MacFarlane was able to phone wirighters
To the point that, when I heard that Vertigo was shuttering, I was only sad out of faint nostalgia; Image has been the publishing house for all my creator-owned comics that I read, while Vertigo hadn't been for the last decade.
Yes! WicDiv and Die are some of my favorite comics and both come from Image.
You could say that after they moved back, image comics became *invincible*
its also worth noting that when alan moore paralysed barbara gordon he didnt expect it to remain cannon as he wrote it before the infinite crisis continuity wipe but the comic ended up released after the reboot thus keeping it cannon
Oh no. That's rough.
I'd be pissed If I did that. Imagine messing with a character you like fully expecting that, due to the nature of comics, it would not be canon; and then DC goes cool, that's the only version now. O O F
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong Except that's not true? It became the then status quo because the creators of Oracle were NOT okay with that treatment and used it as a stepping stone to build Barbara's character
Alan Moore has stated that none of the comic was intended to be canon but DC liked what he did with Barbara and Jokers origin to they canonized parts of his story.
Cards on the table: I obsess over comics quite a bit, and I can't actually tell where in the list of characters you go from the ones that actually exist to the ones you made up to make fun of the ones that exist.
Well made, good stuff.
:)
smallseal17 It's safe just to assume they're all real.
smallseal17 i guess you only mean superhero comics?
Smashbeef
There is an actual marvel character simply called Beef.
The biggest problem with a cartoon of the Killing Joke is that there's no point to it. What was shocking in 1988 has been the norm for decades.
Probably no longer shocking but still far from the norm.
@@suarezguy I mean chances are, if your story relies too much on shock value, chances are it's not an impressive story anyway, due to the fact people can only be shocked once. It's more about the suspense of the shock. Knowing what's going to happen and then worrying. That's a good shock, not one that relies purely on someone not expecting it.
@@j.m9047 The Killing Joke has a lot more point and strength than just shock value.
@@suarezguy I know I've read it and loved it. I'm just saying that in general, you wanna avoid shocking your audience over and over.
This comic would’ve been so much better in the post Spiderverse era where animators have started to re realise how good comics can look on the big screen if they’re animated as if they were the comics.
I know you meant Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse when you said "Spiderverse" but now you've got me wondering what an adaptation of Spider-Verse (2014) would look like.
What are you talking about thats a single movie vs the other 15 that are nothing like you describe...? Who are "the animators"?
@@dissraps It seems basic reading comprehension has missed you. I said “animators” not “the animators” and “have started to” and not “all do” as to imply there are some animators but not all. Like those working on spider verse and those who made the new Puss in Boots
Watching the Liefeld segment with Stan Lee reminds me why I actually really enjoy Squirrel Girl.
Imagine in the middle of the bad grimdark 90's you suddenly get Ditko back to draw a Silver Age style character who's literal power is asking squirrels to just jump en-mass onto villains. Then give her 20 more years of development up into and through the Ryan North series, to show she's from a stable family, has no tragic backstory, a really solid friend group, and really has no grimdark forced emotional baggage.
Its literally a character who was designed from her conception to be the exact opposite of the 90's grimdark, and its hilarious. 🤣
And on top of it she’s canonical the strongest marvel character and as a complete mockery of that fact every feat of her strength is only referenced to never shown.
Ryan North is so fucking awesome he really brought squirrel girl to life
@@PolarSomersi love that
I love that character
Did Stan Lee shade Rob Liedfeld intentionally or was that a funny happy accident. "A Rob Liefeld character without shoulder pads just seems naked." "You draw X Factor right? How many X books do we have... When we have an idea we just run with it." He didn't say a good idea.
He shaded both of them brutally throughout the entire video, it's hilarious
@@Cunnysmythe 🤣🤣
you guys know that Stan and Avi were the ones that greenlit those books in the first place, right? In that context of " _we_ have an idea..." he is talking about himself too, and Marvel in general as a company.
Doesn't make him dunking on those dopes any less valid XD
@@Cunnysmythe Seriously, that guy's characters look like Space Marine knock-offs.
When I was talking about this movie with some friends I was completely shocked to hear one say that Joker raped Barbara in the comic. At no point when I read it did I even consider that as a possibility. To me it was so clear that he shot her and then stripped her to torture her father with images of her completely vulnerable and in agony. Why would he need to do anything else? It was Gordon he was trying to torment. The other guys I was talking to insisted he raped her as well. I had to go reread it to check, but I still didn't see what they had. It pissed me off that violence against a woman is so commonly sexualized that they just assumed that must have happened. Wtf?
ClockworkTrilobite a bit late but I want to say this.
I think that the reason why your friends assumed that the joker r”ped Barbara is due to the fact that the Joker was doing unimaginable things to her, with the goal of hurting her and her father.
And most people believe that the worst thing you can do against a person, especially a woman, is r”pe. This is why it’s used as a story point so often, it’s the worst thing.
So when there is a time period where no one knows what he was doing with the young woman, who’m he wants to hurt. It doesn’t take the most creative mind to come up with that and just imagine him doing it.
@@frankwest5388 If people made that assumption simply because rape is the worst thing that can be done to a person, than they would be making that assumption about men as well as women. But they don't. I've never heard anyone say that Mads Mikkelsen's character raped James Bond because of the torture scene in Casino Royal (even though Bond was stripped naked and tied to a chair with no seat bottom).
If a man is being tortured, it is very rare for sexual violence to be assumed. But if a woman is being tortured, it is commonly sexualized. And apparently it's so common that my friends couldn't even accept an interpretation without sexual assault. They looked at me like I was an idiot for not 'getting' that Babs was raped.
To be clear, I'm not saying they're bad people. I can see why they interpreted it that way. And that's what makes me mad.
@@frankwest5388 Also, I would question your assumption that the reason why women being raped is "used as a story point so often" is just because it's the worst thing you can do to a person. Again, if that's the case, wouldn't men being raped be used just as often? Why isn't it? If men being raped is too taboo to portray, why is it acceptable to portray women being raped "so often"?
ClockworkTrilobite because despite how awful it is, a man being r”ped is a joke about how unmanly he is.
Unless it happens to a little kid, in which case it’s made to symbolize the failure of a system that should have protected him.
This goes back to the idea that it is very difficult to feel bad for man in many cases. Not because they don’t deserve the sympathy but because of human group structure.
As an example. Charity organizations never show a man in need. That is because studies have shown that people are inherently less sympathetic towards them. The sympathy scale goes: little kid, animal, woman then man.
It’s awful but that is how people work, if it isn’t specifically pointed out.
@@frankwest5388 if someone thinks rape of any kind is a joke, they are a a piece of trash. Period.
I'm not sure what you're attempting to say at this point. The stigma against male victims (especially of sexualized violence) is a horrible thing that decent people should fight to change. And it also doesn't really negate anything I said.
I would encourage you to question your assumptions that because our current society, generally, holds certain biases that they must be innate or correct.
Seriously, though, that Rob Leifeld segment was embarrassing. Stan Lee asks him how this character would be different from Wolverine or Cable, and he responds by generically describing those characters. Cringe.
Yo this book low key traumatized me as a little girl lol. Someone brought it to school and I couldn't stop looking at the pages where commissioner Gordon is paraded through a maze of images of Barbara's naked bloody body. It is seared onto my memory, can't believe it took so long for parents to figure out comics aren't always for kids 🙃
I think what was so disturbing was the sexualized images of a woman's body bleeding out
The way he says
*”ThE ClOwn PRInCE Of crIME”*
Is hilarious
Rob Liefeld isn’t really a bad artist, he’s just not good enough to be working in professional art
By professional comic standards, he is definitely bad. lol
He started off bad but over time and lots of practice became mediocre.
Liefeld had one talent. He could churn out work on time. That's what Marvel wanted. Not talent, but production.
He at least does shading and abs well. I wish I could do that.
@@FelixMeister You're actually wrong. Liefeld was pretty bad when it came to deadlines.
Alejandro Glinoga so he wasn’t even good at churning out crap.
I’m surprised, everything I heard indicated that’s the reason he was popular with Marvel editors, and he must have had a talent of some kind.
I'm barely into this video and already pissing myself at "Smashbeef".
David John-Bores how about the fan favorite hero forearm?
i'm looking forward to the new SMASHBEEF vs FOREARM CINEMATIC UNIVERSE
@@dickheadrecs hdjfhjsfgdhjdhsgfdfhkj EVEN JUST THE IMAGE IS MAKING ME CHOKE
I can so easily imagine a better version of the Two-Face scene:
Batman and Gordon are walking through the halls. Gordon at first averts his eyes from Harvey's cell, clearly looking uncomfortable, until he hears the soft _plink_ of Two-Face's coin landing on the floor. Gordon stops, looks, hesitates, and walks over. He tosses the coin back through the bars.
G: "Harvey?"
H: (no answer)
G: (starts to turn to walk away, turns back) "It was... it was heads-up, Harvey." (Starts walking away)
H: "...Thanks."
G: (catches up to Batman) "(sigh) I miss him, Batman. I wish he was back to his old self. We all have our bad days, but I guess life just... tears you in half sometimes. Not always so literally, but..."
B: "Sometimes, you lose something you can't get back. It's what you do once that thing is gone that matters."
G: "...Yeah."
Obvs I'm not a professional writer, but I think this short interaction between Gordon and Harvey would help to show that, even now, Gordon hasn't let go of his sympathy-that Gordon still considers Harvey as some kind of a friend, even after everything. It'd show that Gordon has lost a lot in his time, foreshadowing him nearly losing Barbara later-Harvey was split in half, and now Barbara's about to (effectively) lose her lower half, and Gordon's gonna need to hold himself together through that. It shows that Gordon hasn't quite let the city get to him and is still a good person in the end.
Y'know?
The movie needed about a half hour of extra content from just what was in the book, so stuff like this, fleshing out the scenes from the book, would be so much better than adding 30 minutes of bat-sexual tension followed by bat-sex
@@limarien6405
Exactly!!
"It's got to be a guy, he's got to be huge" ok but what if Overkill was actually a woman, who fights crime in an augmented cyborg/iron-man-type armor suit that looks ridiculously muscular, because that's the only way she can be taken seriously among the rest of the hypermasculine, Liefeldian characters, or because everyone's expecting her to wear a bikini to fight crime and be sexy all the time, and she just wants to fight crime without bringing gender into it, so maybe the suit is actually androgynous, and people just assume Overkill is male.
See? Making a better character than Liefeld is literally effortless
That's a bit too nuanced for Liefeld, can we pay you to replace him?
Well Overkill's crotch is usually drawn as a smooth flat surface, so this re-interpretation of the suit being androgynous makes sense there...
As was the style of the time, come to think of it; which is sort of amusing given the grotesquely bulging muscles and thiccest of necks these featureless groins came with. Someone might write a paper about male insecurities and power fantasies crossing wires there.
@@arskakarva7474 Clearly Liefleld missed the best part of Stardust Crusaders lol
@@moredetonation3755 Nah the man's got a vendetta against feet so he wouldn't like it.
Stan's thinking "Jesus, I miss Jack and Steve"
Meanwhile, Steve's spirit just flips him off and walks away...
"I miss working with more talented artists I could screw over."
@@burner1303 Screw over? Please explain.
@@kingofAwsomness Stan Lee was always credited with "creator" of the characters he helped write, leaving the artists themselves--Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and Bill Everett, without the proper recognition. It is because these poor working environments and falling-outs that Kirby and Ditko left Marvel for DC, creating characters there where they would receive the credit they felt they deserved. Stan Lee only really apologized to Jack Kirby *after* his death in the early '90s, which is kind of a dick move if you ask me. Lee's impact on the medium should not be denied, but neither should the equally important, if not *more* important artists.
@@brandonarango-almarez3516 to be fair to him, he gave credit to them it was and unfortunate side affect that his name was the one they people saw first.
That's insane, the ending scene doesn't even do that thing with the headlights in the rain.
That's the most memorable scene from that comic and its fucking heart breaking and they fuck it up.
I know it's not DC-- but watching this video solidified for me why I fell so madly in love with Matt Fraction's Hawkeye run, beyond the fact that he solidified Clint Barton as a deaf hero. In so many panels of those comics, particularly in Clint's apartment, there is so much environmental storytelling going on with how much of a mess Clint's apartment is, how it foreshadows his depression and acts as a stand-in for expository dialogue. Clint drinking coffee straight out of the pot got meme'd to all hell but IRC you actually see his sink filled with dirty unwashed dishes in several panels beforehand. The guy's life is falling apart and the environment reflects that before you get any in-character conversation about it. It's fucking great. It also helps me put my thumb on why I've felt like so many comics have been so bare bones in the last decade. Great essay man.
I love that you totally made up Smashbeef, because you're hilarious, and then went and made a wiki page just in case I went to check. Smahhhhtt.
I can not find this Wikipedia page
You comissioned Mrs. SexDeath, StrongShot, Deadblast, Smashbeef and Settlers of Catan for this video, didn't you.
Great work on the video.
Wait until they all get teamed up with Zack Snyder directing.
I genuinely thought Sexdeath was real because that's how little I think of Rob Liefeld.
I think SexDeath is based on a real character. The one where the epic line “Samantha Brown, you have to get out of here! You vagina is haunted!” Came from.
I'm 100% tired of when media that is trying to be dark just beats thier female characters and put them through awful traumatic experiences all just for some shock value. It's annoying
Yeah. As I've gotten older and seen and experienced things like serious injuries and accidents, I know the world can be horrible and it doesn't entertain or surprise me to just see that kind of thing gratuitously happening to women on screen. When horrible things happen to women on screen I want to see it treated with adequate depth and the consequences for the woman explored. That isn't the best explanation of how I feel, but close enough
@@katatat2030 The issue with male writers choosing to write out the suffering of female characters is that it is _never_ about exploring that woman's trauma from her perspective. It is ONLY there to give the male protagonist something to be upset about, because he's too badass and cool to be the victim of something as traumatic and violating as, say, sexual assault. It delegates the woman to his property, a plot device with no more characterization and sometimes even less than John Wick's literal pet dog. And when the woman IS the protagonist, like in Kill Bill, the crime is always some form of sexual assault/rape (because it's hot, basically, is the only reason) and her violent murder sprees are always brought into question as we're suddenly made to consider the morals of taking some, if not all the lives that ruined hers while men get to have a mindless indulgent bloodbath for their entire runtime.
game of thrones be like
« aHE eQuAL RiGhT EqUaL FIghT»
-loser who never experienced love
I say, equal grape equal rape if moids wanna cry about equality 😉
@@miccharacter.coomiebully6707 what does that mean?
One great panel at 11:27 also has the shadow of Batman looming over Gordon, which really reflects on how Batman is the dark side of even the supposed most honest cop's desires
Very well spotted
Oh Stan, how we miss you. Him smack talking Liefeld and him not even realizing is a comic critic's pot-a'-gold.
Also good on Moore as being self-critical. A lot of stuff I've written in the past has me groanig and asking what I was drinking, injecting or snorting back then.
I personally blame Bruce Timm for the first 30 minutes part, he has hinted in his other work that Batman and Batgirl are a thing. Mainly in the movie "Mystery of the Batwoman," and his run on the Batman Beyond comics. Those and the first 30 minutes feel more like fan fiction than official stories. All I can say is, Batman x Batgirl should never be a thing
Media Detective I dunno. I'm a teacher and I have seen that kind of thing happen, and my colleague who was involved wasn't nearly as emotionally retarded as Bruce Wayne, so as long as the work doesn't act like Bruce/Barbara is anything but a TERRIBLE IDEA, I'm okay with that particular plot point. It just needs to be handled better than this abomination of a film did.
basically Batman/Batgirl should be allowed as long as the people involved get the direction "watch the German assassins from Archer."
bruh BatmanxBatgirl is Timms OTP and while i love him for his work on the animated series he really REALLY tries to get the ship in when he can and its squicky af
The idea of someone dating his best friend's daughter feels so wrong, which is why I didn't marry Lucina in Fire Emblem Awakening.
Mystery of the Batwoman seemed to have the plot (and some of the shots and stylings) of a porn parody. It would have been more artistic and interesting as a 3-way lesbian gangbang than what it was.
I think what pissed me off most about the Killing Joke adaptation is how they made such a big deal of Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill coming back to voice Batman and Joker, but then they just phone it in SO HARD. All the emotion and subtlety that the writing had in the comic is gone, and they just go through the motions.
Super Pochaco Yeah, Mark and Kevin didn’t bring it for once in almost thirty years. Odd outing to start the trend.
I don't really blame them since they have proved that they can get very invested and give an outstanding performance when given proper direction. That's what was lacking in the movie. Focus and meaning, something the actors can actually work with. Watch Liam Neeson in any scene in the Phantom Menace and then observe him in Batman Begins. The difference is STAGGERING.
Not only that, but it's a story Mark Hamill has wanted to do for years, and when he's retired as Joker (numerous times) he's said it's one of the only things would get him back.
Considering as it's what he's wanted for years, and he's the voice most people read The Killing Joke in, that's pretty worrying.
Yeah, and that's really such a shame because apparently Mark Hamill has been wanting a Killing Joke movie for a long time and was really excited to say some of the best lines from the comic. At least, that's what I heard, and it seems like something he'd really want to do.
@@lynn4840 And then you hear his delivery in the final film and it's just so bland and nondescript and completely devoid of any nuance or emotion.
The most hilarious thing about this for me is that Killing Joke wasn't even supposed to be part of the main canon
I remember when the movie came out and everyone around me seemed to love it, and that made me feel strange because I knew it had to suck since 1. its an alan moore adaptation 2. it used the generic dc animations traces and style. And the thing that every dc movie has in common is that they are stylistically very stale. Half of the killing jokes brilliace is the artwork and how cinematic it is, the use of color, framing, panel layout and pace, the use of shadow... This comic is an insane visual medium, wich is simply not the way of the modern dc animations. So how good could this movie be if it lacks half (or more) of the sources soul and personality? And knowing about the new opening act, how could people think this was anything but distasteful trash?
Then I watched it and hated all my friends for being stupid until they realised this was just distasteful trash.
Half the theater I was in laughed when Batman and Batgirl fucked, which helped reassure me that I wasn't crazy.
There are easy things they could’ve done to both extend the story and feature length and make it less sexist, but they didn’t do any of them.
They could’ve made it into a mystery about where the Joker has escaped, with Batman, Batgirl, and Gordon in pursuit, and had Joker commit a series of crimes all designed to drive Gordon over the edge, culminating in the kidnap of Barbara.
Instead they tack on a pointless prologue which has nothing to do with the rest of the story, and actually make it MORE sexist as a result.
Yeah, that would have made sense.
It does but it would require changing the basic shape of the original story so I don't they'd have done that. The Joker never kidnapped Barbara, after all, he just shot her and then took nudes for... some reason that let's not get into.
But the idea is sound. If you want to develop Barbara and Batman's relationship it would be easy to start with Batman going to the Asylum with Gordon after Joker's escape (i.e the original start of the story) and then introduce Batman, Gordon and Batgirl going on an investigation before Jokey shot Barbara.
They'd go searching for clues, follow Joker's previous steps, check out known hideouts (which could be triggers for some of Joker's backstory) and in each of them we could get a dosage of Barbara interacting with Batman or with her father as Batgirl to set up some stuff. Give her flashbacks of her relationship with her dad and mom in the meantime, intersperse them with Joker's side of the story preparing the whole operation and flashbacks to suggest that even Barbara who experienced loss and seeing her father escape into alcoholism still stood strong and didn't crumble under the pressure. That would make Barbara becoming Oracle after being paralyzed echo the general theme of the story even stronger.
Then the good guys find nothing, resolve to keep trying and neither her father nor Batman engage in any inappropriate activity with Batgirl (since they're both father figures for her and her doing Bats is about two steps removed from doing the same with her father, why does that ship keep rearing its stupid, vaguely incestuous head?) and they all go home to relax, then the Joker intersects, strikes when least expected for shock value and you get the final part of the story play out as usual.
If one wants filler in this story, there are way easier ways to get it to work aside from just stitching a whole other, weaker story on top of it. For it to even attempt to appear seamless it needs to be integrated and expand upon the original story. Otherwise it's just jarring...
The Killing joke is a classic and likely in the top 3 most well known Batman stories ever, so why would they seemingly spend so little money on the animation? It doesn't even look as good as the 90's Batman animated series or as good as the comic it's based on.
ive never even seen it and just those clips in this video i can tell its bad
I loved seeing Stan Lee's priorities as a writer and designer on display during that "Overkill" segment. His first two suggestions:
1. _Give him HUGE shoulder pads! A tough guy is naked without big shoulder pads!_
2. _Give him a distinct personality and perspective that'll set him apart from the many, MANY other characters that already populate this oversaturated industry._
The first suggestion was inherently silly and over-the-top. The second was unexpectedly thoughtful and extremely important. I'd argue that combination of goofy and insightful is the core foundation of Marvel comics. The X-Men dressed in yellow spandex and fought big purple robots, but they were ALSO an allegory for societal bigotry towards those who are perceived as abnormal.
The fact that Rob CLEARLY was unprepared for that second question and immediately fell back on exactly what had already been done before says a lot about his own priorities, as well.
I don't even think that first one is a suggestion. He wasn't saying all tough guys in comics need shoulder pads. What he said was "Haha, a Liefeld character is naked without shoulder pads, amiright?" he was making fun of liefeld's overused/reused designs and liefeld didn't even notice
You’re looking into it too much. Guy passed away, stop treating him like he’s the messiah of comic books.
I hope this is a prequel for a larger video on the DC Snyderverse .
UH OH
He's one of the few who likes man of steel
Man of Steel wasn't that bad I mean it had some good ideas at least, the one everyone wants to see shit on is Batman v Superman.
That only makes it more interesting, especially with Snyder being a fan of Ayn Rand and all.
Am I the only one who liked Dawn of Justice?
Azzarello’s Wonder Woman has two major issues that have stopped me from reading it:
1.) Her origin was changed. Instead of being clay from Themysciria’s soil and given life by the gods, Diana is now Zeus’s daughter. Her origin is now defined by her father, a trend I’ve noticed in Azzarello’s work when he writes anything with what’s supposed to be feminist but has the women defined by a man (like making Barbara emotionally and sexually dependent on Batman).
2.) The Amazons were retconned into having captured, raped, and murdered sailors to replenish their ranks. The bridge between Paradise left forgotten and the modern world of man retooled into a story of Diana’s family being rapists and killers.
Yeah, no. I think I’ll pass.
That's seriously messed up
Fifth.
And Settlers of Catan was a great villain, Hbomb. I hate you.
It is a great boardgame.
I had no idea Settlers of Catan was a comic book villain before it was a boardgame! Sort of makes sense the amount of times it's turned me and my friends into furious villains ourselves.
Wait I thought catan was a city in civilization
For everyone who is confused right now, they're just joking. There is no superhero or villain named Settlers of Catan. I got confused as well and googled it lol
Going through the ways that the comics did things better than the movie just gave me a very disturbing realization.
Lego Batman is one of the most accurate comic book adaptations in decades.
Holy musical b@man is a more accurate adaptation
Oh fuck you're right lmaoo
Lesson leaned: Alan Moore's an amazing writer who should've never got into comics.
"Hbomberguy loves this comment"? What is this, I've never seen that thing before
Hbomber using S Jew mind tricks to defy the laws of TH-cam comments!
Miracleman is goat.
Alan Moore is too iconic for his own good
You're missing the point of the comic and criticism then. He's saying essentially that Alan Moore did such a good job of subverting the tropes and format of comics as a whole, that comics kind of haven't recovered from it. His shade is kind of over everything, he called the industry on its shit so to speak, thereby, in a sense, ruining comics from that point on. Cause the illusion was broken. And his stuff is phenomenal and groundbreaking, but there's a reason that we still talk about his work while so much of the modern stuff gets kind of ignored.
You know, after we both read "The Killing Joke" my bff and me had a long discussion about the idea that the past we see in the comic is real or just another fabrication and her arguments for fabrication were that the wife and baby die unceremoniously off-screen and the fact that she says that she only stays with the future Joker because "he is good in bed and makes her laugh", two things that can obviously interpreted as something that the Joker's massive narcissism and Ego would fabricate. The transitions can also be seen that way, not as trigger-reminders but as his malleable mind shaping a new past as he sees images and shapes itself after them. We had hours of fun and fruitful discussion about set ups, ideas and so on all from a comic. And even Alan Moore doesn't really like it anymore.
Its also criminal how they removed all those amazing backgrounds and small world-building details from the movie. Even the alarm-clock and the can of coffee on the shelve next to the bathroom mirror add a feeling of how cramped, small and dirty the place is and how desperate it would ultimately make the man to go to to criminals and aid in a heist.
You can get so much info done in one panel that shows how a room is set up or what items a person keeps where and so few comics (and movies) actually do that. Heck, the game "Gone Home" is basically that alone.
Davesknd What
The uncanny One What exactly confuses you?
***** The fact that you didn't use paragraphs.
The Uncanny One Yeah, sorry, that was a bit dumb of me. It was late when I wrote this ;P
Wonder Woman turns into a Super Saiyan in the New 52 comics. Apparently her cuffs not only deflect bullets, but also hold back her real power. It's cool if you 'don't' think about it.
As a matter of fact, a lot of the Justice League got new and more powerful super forms during that run.
Except Aquaman.
That sounds fitting that aquaman was forgotten. That sounds incredible in various ways that they are taking things common in anime after all this time.
Kyle Rayner (the Green Lantern shown in the video) gets the biggest anime treatment of all.
Over the years, DC established several other lantern rings, including the Yellow Lantern Corps of Fear, the Red Lantern Corps of Rage, The Star Saphires of Love, etc... totalling in seven different corps including the Green Lanterns.
Kyle, towards the beginning of his New 52 run, ends up putting all seven rings on at the same time and becomes a Super Lantern. It's two pages of absolute Anime bliss.
***** Then there was also the time Superman had Doomsday in his body as, basically a Jinchuriki a la Naruto.
berserkchip Aquaman is badass enough on his own - although I guess his hand being magic again would be fun, just for another "I gave Steppenwolff a stroke"-moment.
8:00 I think it's not just padding, it's also them trying to sidestep criticism about the problematic elements of Killing Joke that involve Barbara's portrayal (namely, that she's fridged and doesn't have any agency; her traumatic injury is only explored through the lens of how it affects her father and Batman, etc), by spending more time on her in the film. However, they don't actually devote that time to characterizing her as an independent person so that the audience feels bad for her when she gets shot, they just show her in relation to Batman (a man), and depict the two having "sexual chemistry" because of course, that's the only relationship a man and woman can have if they're not biologically related.
If they had added more to the middle of the story (I guess it's the "middle," it's after the inciting incident and before the climactic showdown, idk) about Barbara reacting to her injury, maybe foreshadowed Oracle (much more than they did), and maybe even added something for Barbara to do that affects the overall plot (I know adding stuff to Alan Moore plots is blasphemy, but here I think it would be a good idea), that would be a positive addition to the story as long as it was done well, imho. But yeah, this is padding and an attempt at being "progressive" without actually... being progressive.
(You could even have Barbara learn that she was targeted, not because she's Batgirl, but just to hurt her father, and show her getting really mad about it, which maybe then motivates her to do something like research some stuff or get a tip and inform Batman, and that could be kind of a meta bit, idk.)
Also tbh I don't like the idea of the Joker having one defined Tragic Backstory (TM). I kind of want him to be a fluid/malleable character in terms of where he comes from, and even stuff like his motivations, the way Batman is also sometimes allowed to be in comics (since other people besides Bruce Wayne have been Batman). I like the idea of the Joker as a force of nature, not a potential Darth Vader figure who could hypothetically "turn good again" if he got just the right closure/catharsis/therapy (I like a redemption arc for lots of villains, just not the Joker).
But why even change the story? If you want to read about this girl then read her stories instead. The killing joke focuses mostly on batman and the joker so it's not that weird that Barbara is not getting some offshot story about how this trauma hurt her. That can be told in another story and would break the pacing off the killing joke.
There is a big youtube AD next to your video saying "WATCH BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE ON TH-cam FOR 5 ACTUAL CANADIAN DOLLARS".
Amazing.
I see this too. I have adblock on. Help!
ONLY ELEVEN BILLION CANADIAN US DOLLARS????????
A month.
One of the things that annoys me the most about The Killing Joke the movie is that it, like most of the fans of the comic, think it's a story about Barbara. It isn't. The character she became after this story is one that she became despite this, not because of this.
Well, we were told that Barbara would have agency in this and it would remedy the original portrayal, so people HOPED the movie would be about Barbara, because that might help redeem the shitty clusterfuck that is The Killing Joke. Instead they screwed it up so monumentally it ended up being worse. It's less about thinking the movie was about her, and being told it was when it wasn't, so I don't think it's unfair to criticize the film from that perspective.
Well, regardless of whether or not she's the main character, a character should never be used as a plot device. Barbara is shot almost at the beginning of the story and they never really go back to her, so we can see how she is dealing with such a traumatic event. Instead, the injury of one character is used to make other characters feel bad. It wouldn't be so bad if we got to see her and explore her character a little bit after the fact. Build her up as a real person and not a plot device to push the men into action.
Do you also have a problem with Spiderman's uncle being plot device?
Lady Deathdyke Then that’s a problem with the adaptation, not the comic itself. Yeah, it’s a terrible thing that happens to a beloved character, but when your intention is to shock or surprise the audience, all is fair game. It’s just a story and the characters are all fictional. The people expecting the film to be about Barbara when it’s an adaptation of a story Barbara was barely in set them selves up for disappointment. The people who claimed she’d have more agency in that story were also idiots to try and force such a thing into the story the way they did. It should’ve just been a direct adaptation and that’s it. Make a few changes, but don’t lie to your audience.
jeeshwa123 You're severely downplaying Barbara's role as Oracle. Gathering intel isn't an easy task and she puts herself in danger when she does that, too. Plus, it's not the only thing she did: As Oracle, she was one of the strategists, mission planners, hackers and the intel gatherer for the JUSTICE LEAGUE (not just Batman or the Robins, BUT THE ENTIRE SUPERHERO COMMUNITY), she still lead the Birds of Prey as their leader, helped train the other 2 Batgirls (hell, she even taught Cassie how to read), and was overall an inspiration to other characters, especially the Bat family. Jason was a straight up asshole villain until the New 52 turned him into a more likable anti-hero, and most people didn't exactly like that because his team consisted of Teen Titans members who weren't known for killing people. The DC Rebirth team is the one everyone likes cause it better complements the idea of them being the DC Trinity's more darker counterparts, but that's recent. Heck, the New 52 did what you kind of wanted: get Barbara back as Batgirl and be on the roof tops and punch people. They had her getting experimental treatment from STAR Labs and, poof, she could walk again. And what did she do? NOTHING. She's been Batgirl for a city or a part of Gotham that no one cares about and did nothing of importance since. She's another on again, off again, sidekick who only mostly shows up in important Batman events to be sidelined or do little compared to Batman. Barbara was way more useful, more interesting and more likable as Oracle than she is at being the current Batgirl because they completely regressed her personality. All the character development, her learning to cope with her disability as long as she did in pre-New 52, becoming an important member of the JL as Oracle and being Cassandra Cain's mother figure and one of her mentors? All retconned away just so she could be Batgirl again.
Ok so I've watched this video before and I'm returning to it nearly four years after it was released, but as the discussion continued about newer creators looking back at wonderful works of art and bastardizing them, only superficially understanding what made them great, and trying so hard to copy the things that made those older works successful.....I was reminded of a more modern phenomenon that mirrors this perfectly.....Avatar: The Last Airbender
Ever since its release, animated series aimed at children have tried so hard to emulate its mature themes and expansive universe without realizing WHY atla explored those things so successfully. Newer creators look at atla and remember the super cool plot and the big redemption arc and how much worldbuilding there was, when in reality, atla was never REALLY about the plot or the world of bending, it was about the characters and their lives and interactions. Newer creators tend to neglect meaningful character development in favor of making their shows "cool and edgy and mature like atla". atla was never edgy, it was quite goofy and fun, actually. The only reason the more serious points in the show had such a huge impact is because the characters were so well explored.
That's literally Legend of Korra. And they made the original series.
I'm genuinely not sure what new creators you are talking about. I really can't think of a single animated show that has tried to imitate atla but failed at it because they were trying to be "too cool and edgy and mature like atla". And I can't even think of a single modern non-superhero animated show that's only trying to be cool and edgy (Adventure Time, Steven Universe, Amphibia, Samurai Jack, Owl House, Castlevania, Infinity Train, Hilda, Kid Cosmic,... the list literally goes on and on).
Also, please understand just because a show doesn't focus as much or not at all on being goofy, it doesn't mean it's bad. There are plenty of times when wrongfully placed goofiness actively hurts atla.
And to @Cold Stuff, this doesn't apply to LoK. Calling LoK edgy is like calling AtLA edgy, just an overall very stupid thing to do. Creators choosing to make new content rather than pander to fans by making the same thing over and over, is **not** being edgy, hopefully you will learn that one day.
Lastly, while atla **is** a great show, this fanbase really needs to stop acting like its the unreachable pinnacle of animation, it's not.
@@coldstuff9784 Yes and no; Legend of Korra was made by _some_ of the people that made ATLA; specifically the co-creators Mike and Bryan. However, ATLA's head writer, Aaron Ehasz, did not return, nor did Ehasz' ex-wife, who wrote some of ATLA's best episodes, return either. ATLA was very much a team success, and Legend of Korra was the result of part of that team being missing.
I like what they did to Cable by teaming him up with Deadpool, it sort of lightened the "edgy" "grim dark" mood.
I literally own every single cablepool comic and they're wonderful. They were also basically the only cable comics I'd read when I first watched this, so when hbomb was describing him, I was like "really? that's not how I perceived him at all" and then two seconds later he was like but then cable got better and I was like oh okay good life makes sense now
I'd say it still amazes me that the best adaptation of an Alan Moore comic is the episode "For the Man Who Has Everything" from Justice League Unlimited, but I'd be lying.
Man, what I wouldn't give for a really, really good animated series based on his run on Swamp Thing.
To be fair that episode is straight-up incredible.
This idea, that that Justice League Unlimited episode is the only Alan Moore adaptation of which he approves, seems to be received wisdom on the Internet. But I've never been able to find a source for it.
It's possible that he may have appreciated it at the time, but given his more recent remarks about DC, and the disdain he has for the work he did for them, I doubt he feels the same about it now.
The column Comic Book Legends Revealed #562 on Comic Book Resources has a quote from Alan Moore to the makers of a fan-made adaptation of one of his Doctor Who comics:
> "First, let me say how much I enjoyed Black Legacy. It is not only the first screen adaptation of my work that I’ve actually watched more that the first five minutes of before being overcome with rage and disgust, it is the only screen adaptation of my work that I’ve enjoyed from start to finish and can say I thoroughly approve of."
Darkhawk was an edgy name, but he was an idealistic guy who actually enjoyed being a noble hero who didn't kill anyone. The rest...? 200% accurate
I honestly think that the focus on Barbera in the first act of the film was an attempt to make it seem like she was something more than a prop in the story.
They failed, but I think they were trying to minimise the shittier things in the original comic.
It was never really a problem in the original. Joker tries to get to people through their loved ones. He did the same thing to Jason Todd but actually killed him. Guess that was sexist too.
@@lProN00bl I respectfully disagree.
The controversy surrounding The Killing Joke wasn't that Joker did something bad -- that's just a given of the character -- the controversy was about Alan Moore's decision to make one of the worst moments of Barbara's life all about other people.
I have a LOT of issues with Jason Todd's death, but one thing I'll give it is that it didn't happen out of nowhere, the way Barbara's assault did.
Jason's death was the culmination of an established character arc that had been steadily built up prior to A Death In The Family: that he was a child who ran impulsively into dangerous situations again and again, in a world far less forgiving than the Silver Age. The entire ADitF event was a further reflection of his reluctance to change this approach.
When he died, it was a further tragedy because it reflected an internal flaw of Jason's, one that he didn't overcome before it was too late. Yes, other characters, especially Batman, reacted strongly to this, but Jason's death had story and character significance exclusive to him.
Again, I definitely have issues with Jason's death, but compare that to Barbara's assault. It didn't happen (story-wise) as a culmination of some mistakes that Barbara had made during TKJ, or some persistent fatal flaw of hers that she'd not yet overcome.
It happened because Moore needed to hurt Batman and Gordon, and she was the easiest way to do it.
The result is an event that's moreso divisive to this day because it reflects a lack of foresight by the writer to treat a beloved character with respect -- which would've been to let Barbara's lowest point be about her.
@@morcey7154 these are criticisms made about general sudden death writing. But it's not because she's a woman that it happened.
Look at how the avengers movies handled shit like Bucky's enslavement...what was that turned into? A big thing for captain and Tony to fight over. Same for Rhodes legs, turned into 99% motivation for Tony and guilt for Cap.
My point is that for Barbara, the only reason the scene gets as much flack, is because she's a woman. Despite claims it's for non-sexist reasons.
@@lProN00bl you’re 100% right.
The og comic wasnt shitty tho
Anyone else get the feeling Stan saw the 90s creations as intentionally satirical? Felt like he was taking the piss in that video. I love it.
Wait a second -- Forearm?
Seriously? That character's name is actually Forearm? That's not just you making fun of shitty 90s XTREEEEM comics characters by giving some random no-mark a silly name? Someone, somewhere, actually decided that it was a good idea to name a comic book action hero "Forearm"?
And people wonder why comics are basically dying a slow death.
well i mean the guy's got four arms so what can ya do about it really
Scotty Enn
Scotty Enn He's no match for the mighty Shin-Bone!! 💀
what do you expect, the dude was "created" by rob liefeld. of course he's going to have the character whose power is that he has four arms (that's literally it, look it up) be called forearm, because for rob liefeld, that apparently qualifies as humor.
I would actually prefer a character named "Foreskin".
only sixteen minutes?
WTF
3.2 sargons long
+MAGA Cucks 3.2 too many
You cant fool me. During that parade of edgelord characters one of those pictures was just dr. Doom after a trip to hot topic!
They had only four designs Deadpool, Cable, Wolverine and Electra
I’d heard The Killing Joke was good, so one time I tried watching the movie on an airplane.
After five minutes, I was like “What is this shit”
It's funny because Image started as the biggest offender if what you're talking about, but nowadays they're producing some of the most subtle, thoughtful and compelling stories in comics.
"When we get a good thing we don't let it go".......the dark side of capitilism in a nutshell. That made me deeply sad
I’m pretty sure the dark side is drugs slave work and other evils
rip star wars
@@blakeswanson1322 thats ever present even when it shouldnt be
@@LaerHeiSeiRyuu eh
Tf are you talking about, the same can also be applied to socialism
I wonder what Mr. Sexdeath is all about. Maybe he's like, totally normal but just somehow managed to get that really absurd name which of course he tried to convince everyone was pronounced (Sey deeth) or something. So he goes through life like that, continually trying to get everyone to pronounce his name in some other way when he meets the love of his life. She thinks, "He's a really nice guy and smart and successful. The only thing wrong with him is that damn name." and then she has a flashback of her dearly departed mother whose last words were, "If you can't beat em, join em.". So she marries him and only then does she fully embrace her new name and title Mrs. Sexdeath. So of course she rushes to her local s&m dungeon and gay bathhouse to buy her costume and as she dons it she realizes she has the ability to,... well, I don't know what her powers are and since there's little to no information on her online, she could've only been in one or two comics. Which means, she embraces the name and subsequently stops wearing the costume and being Mrs. Sexdeath. She pretty much immediately abandons the idea entirely. She never tells her husband but she still carries the memories of that fun romp she had once with the superheroes... or villains, I don't know which. So, after unsuccessfully getting people to pronounce her name differently, she begs her husband for a legal name change. He agrees. The Smiths are now a happy but boring couple. They moved to a new city where no one knows their name. And as the years pass and there's a few more lines on her face and a few more pounds on her hips, she realizes how ridiculous she'd look in that costume which by now is tragically out of style anyway and despite her fond memory, is pleased with her decision.
The end. At least that's what she thought. But all this happened before the internet. Now the local nerd slash marplot discovers her secret and her world is suddenly turned upside down. People laugh and she doesn't know why. She hears wolf whistles only to turn and see no one. And after hearing too many words of hushed conversations, she decides that Mrs. Sexdeath must rise again. After carefully updating her costume, she seduces and subsequently kicks the ever loving shit out of all the gossips, even the women, and makes damn sure no one will ever speak the name of Mrs. Sexdeath again, except by then it was on TH-cam and the story was even picked up by a local news station. She's of course immediately arrested and now must appear as Mrs. Sexdeath and speak out against the dangers of violence as part of her community service agreement. Her husband, Mr. Smith, formerly Mr. Sexdeath doesn't know what to think. He's at first disappointed, then confused, angry, but a little turned on. Ultimately he decides to stand by his beloved wife. The paparazzi are relentless. She becomes more famous than ever before and as a joke, is sought out by the Justice League but they ultimately decide against the idea because some robot attacked Gotham city or something and they had some real work to do at that point. And Mrs. Sexdeath is tragically dragged into a downward spiral of depression, alcoholism and abuse of prescriptions drugs given to her by her now very busy shrink. She gets calls to be on TV shows as Mrs. Sexdeath, mainly so people have some eye candy to ogle. And in a fit of rage, she storms out of her latest TV gig and violently attacks the first person she comes across. And although she doesn't realize it at the time, through a bizarre twist of fate, this man happens to be the notorious criminal mastermind and rapist, Dr. Virginalive. She's applauded as a national hero, she tells her story on 60 Minutes and she authors the best selling novel and autobiography "Life as Mrs. Sexdeath".
The Smiths never bothered to change their name back but whenever anyone calls them Mr. and Mr.s Sexdeath, they proudly respond. Mr. Sexdeath even got a costume that he wears only rarely for the few appearances they do. Her book sales coupled with their savings, investments and speaking engagements is enough to live off of. And after 20 years of marriage, they finally gave birth to their first child. A girl. The young Ms. Sexdeath.
And the moral of this story is, if you actually read all that, you're either desperately trying to avoid doing some task in which case, GET BACK TO WORK! or you have way too much time on your hands. Get a hobby. 🙂
Reading delightful AUs like this IS my hobby.
@@ingonyama70 Lol. Thanks for reading. I honestly don't know how that happened. I just kept writing. Lol.
This was actually pretty good
@@asrieldreemurr1988Well, the career as a freelance absurdist TH-cam commenter is picking up very slowly. I now have 2 readers. I'm glad someone besides me got some enjoyment out of that. Cheers.
@@PaulTheSkeptic not everyone who reads it comments I. mean you have nine likes so you have at least 9 readers
This is a good reference video for the discussion of the... embattled is probably the nice way to put it... Cowboy Bebop adaptation by Netflix. It does a lot of the same things as The Killing Joke adaptation, like changing the characters around needlessly (including whitewashing quite a few of the major characters), changing how they talk and the tone of the dialogue, changing the overall theme (more like just removing it entirely and substituting another one), adding needless backstory and prologue to antagonist characters, so much that it actually ends up derailing the plot so much it might as well be fanfiction. They even screwed up the pretty decent female representation of the original as well.
And much like The Killing Joke adaptation, it's also lazy, VERY poorly written, and pretty boring.