The Most Important Transit Project in the US | Penn Station Transformation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- Today's topic of discussion is the transformation of Manhattan's Penn Station in the near future, as the first part of a series of videos about the Northeast Corridor. Enjoy!
As always, leave a comment down below if you have ideas for our future videos. Like, subscribe, and hit the bell icon so you won't miss my next video!
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What do you think is the most important transit project in the United States?
Any that get funded and built lol. Seriously, any more vids on Los Angeles? Wilshire subway, Sepulveda Pass subway, Regional Connector, electrifying Metrolink?
1. CAHSR
2. Penn Station/Hudson tunnels
California Hsr
The most important transit project in the US (To me) is the Transbay Terminal in San Francisco. Would love to see a video series on CAHSR connecting with SF as well as a potential BART-Caltrain merger
It’s not really a sexy project but I’d have to say the numerous transit agencies around the county updating and modernizing their bus networks are the most important if we can’t get our busses running right we’re not going to be able to effectively get as many people off the roads and everything including rails will still suffer lower ridership
The former underground Penn Station was just ... soul crushing. Imagine getting off Acela for your first time in NYC, and you end up in a low-ceiling basement, narrow platforms, and a station terminal that is basically falling apart.
Its not basically falling apart, it is literally falling apart.
@@thechickenstew3716 that's the same thing
Meanwhile people entering Singpaore via coach often end up at Golden Mile Complex/Tower as their terminus stations, which are pretty dilapidated shopping malls with choked toilets and yellowed (i.e. heavily oxidised) false ceilings. Those entering Singapore via rail end up at the newer but still tired-looking Woodlands Train Checkpoint, which is a bus connection (often already full with commuters from neighbouring Malaysia & to the nearby industrial estates) plus a 50min MRT/metro/subway ride away from downtown. These experiences are in stark contrast to those arriving in Singapore via air, which are mostly via the world-class Changi Airport with it's Jewel luxury shopping mall & indoor Raintree waterfall
It is one ugly facility.
Blame MSG for picking the location
London Bridge Station is a good example of an overcrowded station that was rebuilt and extended to become a beautiful, well designed transport hub
London Bridge Station looks amazing, though it isn’t underground!
@@RMTransitYes, but it dose have alot less space to expand then penn
Maybe but I’m not sure about that
@@RMTransit The problem is what's on top of the old Penn Station. Call Miley Cyrus, she knows what to do.
I've used London Bridge station regularly, before and after the rebuild. It was actually nicer to use before, mainly due to the time it takes to change trains - e.g. no more cross-platform interchange with ThamesLink (kind of N-S RER), and twice as long to walk to the tube line platforms, the bus station and the south-side terminal platforms (for south London local trains). Also the new platforms have no passenger information apart from the next train indicators, are austere and windswept, and the canopies give little protection from rain. On the good side, it is much more accessible, there is a new south entrance (for Guy's Hospital and the revived Bermondsey area) and the new layout can cope with many more trains (ironically, due to covid, this may not be be much use for some time). BTW, the rebuild caused much grief and went on a long time.
Penn station is rough as and like a maze. I do have to say The amtrak guy in the waiting area who directs you to your platform when the train arrives is an absolute legend!!
I enjoyed your video on Penn Station. In it you mentioned the concept of "through Running". While this sounds nice in theory there are several technical and political road blocks in the way of this happening.
Technical -
Both Amtrak and New Jersey Transit (NJT) enter PSNY from the west. Amtrak uses trains that are powered by electric locomotives using pantographs collecting power from an overhead catenary system at 13Kv 25Hz. NJT uses a mix of locomotive hauled trains (ALP45DM and ALP44) as well as EMU's. These trains also get their power from overhead wires.
Coming from the east you have the Long Island Railroad. They use a mix of EMU's (M3 through M9) as well as locomotive hauled trains pulled by diesels equipped with 3rd rail pickup shoes. Both the EMU's and the diesel/electric-electric locomotives get their power through an over running 660 volt 3rd rail system.
The Amtrak and NJT trains do NOT have 3rd rail pickup shoes.
The LIRR trains do NOT have pantographs.
FULL STOP.
To implement through running you'd have to replace both fleets with dual mode catenary/3rd rail EMU's similar to the MetroNorth (M2 through M8) series. Some of this equipment like the LIRR M9's and the NJT Multi-level coaches are relatively new so replacing them with hundreds of new (lets say M10's) EMU's would cost a huge amount of money. Wiring up the LIRR for catenary would be problematic as there are many low bridges that just clear the EMU's. Lets assume the 3rd rail equipped diesels on the LIRR side would be retained for some originating Penn Station trains bound for points beyond the current end of the LIRR 3rd rail system.
At this point I should add that LIRR will start diverting some of it's trains to Grand Central Terminal when the East Side Access project opens some time this century (it's been pushed back so many times I've lost count). This will take some of the pressure off of Penn Station.
Political -
Transit in the US is heavily balkanized meaning services generally stop at the state, county or city line. The fact that NJT operates into PSNY is a hold over from the PRR/PC days and the fact that PSNY is where most of NJT's passengers want to go. When you mention the RER in Paris or the S Bahn in various German cities you need to remember two things. They are operated by ONE operator (SNCF in France and DB in Germany) using standardized trains and interfracture and are funded by the central government as part of it's national transportation plan. This is NOT the case in NYC (or the US in general) as you have different train types, power and signal systems, unions and even operating rules. The only place in the US where you find a run through operation is in Philadelphia with SEPTA's center city tunnel. That operation is entirely in the state of Pennsylvania as was built to connect two railroads that used the same overhead power system (11Kv 25Hz) operated by ONE authority SEPTA. In California Metrolink has indicated it will operate trains through LAUPT once the run through tracks are built. There is talk of a tunnel connecting north and south station in Boston but after the Big Dig cost blowout I wouldn't hold you breathe for that one. The thing about both LA and Boston is both projects are located in ONE state serving a central city operated by ONE authority (Metrolink/MBTA). New York City has four operators (AMTK, NJT, LIRR and MetroNorth) connecting two states. Getting all four operators AND both states to agree on anything will NOT be easy.
A couple more points related to PSNY (as if this reply wasn't long enough) -
The "Penn Station South" plan is basically for NJT only. It would consist of a six track stub-end station with three center platforms. Tracks would be long enough to platform a twelve car train with locomotives. This would get some NJT trains out of the main part of PSNY freeing up more tracks for Amtrak traffic which is expected to grow in the future. While most NJT trains would turn at Penn Station South to head back to New Jersey some would continue to use the main station and operate through to Sunnyside Yard to layover there.
There is talk of having MetroNorth New Haven line trains come into PSNY via the Hell Gate bridge line. The problem here is the new MN M8 EMU's are setup to operate on 60Hz catenary only as they lack the older heavy 25Hz transformers. This would require the LIRR 3rd rail to be extended to the west-end of Hell Gate bridge just east of "Gate" interlocking. Into Grand Central Terminal MN uses the New York Central's under running 3rd rail system as opposed to the LIRR (PRR) over running 3rd rail system. I think the new M8's are set up with adjustable 3rd rail pickup shoes but I'm not 100 percent sure. This service will of course eat up some of the slots vacated by LIRR moving to Grand Central Terminal.
I could also mention proposed plans to bring MN Hudson line trains powered by dual mode diesel/electric-electric locomotives into Penn Station via the Empire connection. Those plans are not as advanced as the New Haven line trains. Also there is now a long range plan to electrify the New York to Albany line with an overhead catenary system proposed by the state of New York. This would drastically increase both Amtrak and MN service on this line.
Short summary, don't expect through running anytime soon.
I’m of course aware of the political and technical problems, but at the end of the day they are not good reasons not to through run.
Of course you will need to start standardizing your rolling stock with multiple power pickups, and you will need to force political cooperation, but this has been done before in places just as Balkanized as the US!
@@RMTransit I wish I could share you enthusiasm but political turf is defended at all costs (look at Atlanta) and long range planning is something we do very poorly here in the US.
Well that’s part of what needs to change!
Not just 4 operators connecting two states - don’t forget that MNRR also connects to Connecticut. It makes more sense to focus on solutions that account for the practical political realities. Some expansion of limited through running (which you already see e.g. NJT trains running from Secaucus to CT on football game days) would make sense. Having NJT trains continue past Penn to terminate at a new station in Sunnyside, which would anchor a new development above Sunnyside yards similar to Hudson yards, might also make sense. But through-running trains from say Gladstone in NJ all the way up to New Haven in CT? Or from Trenton to Montauk? Fuggedaboutit.
@RmTransit. I wish the politics would change but it’s not going to. Right now, NY/NJ/CT can’t even agree on how to divide up the Federal Covid aid that’s been allocated to support public transit in the region. And the MTA still can’t manage to merge Metro-North and LIRR, even though they share the same parent agency!
It’s hard for non-Americans to truly appreciate the balkanized nature of American federalism. On top of different state governments jealously guarding their autonomy, you’ve also got a tangled web of municipal and county authorities that want their say too. The way US states have rival executive and legislative branches also ties the hands of any governor that wants to enhance coordination within their states and with neighboring states (a problem Canadian provinces don’t have to contend with).
So any realistic plan is going to have lots of compromises. With that background in mind, the new Gateway/Penn plans and the NEC 2035 plans are really, really good. Now let’s hope they can get funded.
When I lived in New York, I remember Penn Station being the greatest hells on this Earth. My optimal solution would be an orbital bombardment like the Hammer of Dawn from Gears of War. That said, hopefully this transformation will turn it into more of a purgatory, like the Port Authority bus terminal.
The fact that the folks over at ReThink Penn Station NYC have a link to this on their website says something about this video.
I have only been inside Penn Station on 25th October 2009, as I took a train from Philadelphia 30th Street station to NYC Penn that day. I went through New Jersey as well. I found the IRT that I rode from NYC WTC to Jersey City and back through Christopher Street in July 2016 to be nicer than being in Penn Station.
I remember Shinjuku, like quite a lot of other major train stations in Tokyo, can feel a bit claustrophobic with their low ceilings for their passageways & concourses too
Important to remember that in the north east regional rail trains sit in the station for up to 25 minutes.
What Vincent Scully had to say on the destruction of Penn Station; "Through Pennsylvania Station one entered the city like a god. Perhaps it was really too much. One scuttles in now like a rat.”
1:35 "And there is a sneaky 7th tunnel, which connects up to the north in the Empire Corridor. Though it's not a super important tunnel because it doesn't operate a ton of trains." I feel personally attacked!! As someone from Albany, I've literally never taken the train into NYC any other way than this tunnel. And it's the only one I've ever been through. :( And I mean it gets at least 22 Amtrak trains a day going upstate, Toronto, Montreal, Vermont, or Chicago, so I think it's a little unfair to call it not important. Overall great video though. I think your plan makes a lot of sense. The realities of doing this though is not very likely, I think, sadly.
Hey I mean I take the tunnel in from Toronto too lol
@@RMTransit Oh, that is true! It's all good :)
You should put more images or examples in yours videos.
It’s very hard to produce videos on every topic with a ton of pictures especially when I don’t have my own to use. When travel is possible again this will change, I will note we did include several maps.
@@RMTransit You could go looting at wikipedia commons to give just a basic impression of the station
This video was less about Penn than the tracks!
@@RMTransit I know, but youwere covering issues of the current station, too, like the cramped feeling with the low ceilings
Point taken
Looking forward to this upcoming series!
NYC regional transport heads are pretty stuck in thinking all the systems are separate, which is why Penn Station is used as a terminal despite being better suited for through running.
East Side Access should have been extended to penn station and trains from NJT and LIRR should run on both lines
Thank you!!! You're the only transit person I've seen that understands why Penn South is needed. To decommission and redo the main penn station. However, may I suggest an. Alternate solution to it's usefulness? The current RPA plan is to run a third pair of tunnels through and cross the east river. And to also make another station a little further east in Manhattan. You could operate the services to treat the northern tunnels as a pair and the southern tunnels as a pair and through run that way and make the southern pair connect to east side access tail tracks or something. Trains already do through-run but instead of continuing on they go into Hudson yards and sunnyside yards.
this isn't a bad video, but i wish you could show pictures of some of this stuff, like Union Station in Toronto (6:55) because i don't know what that looks like and i wish i didn't have to google what it looks like just to understand your point better. keep up the good work though!!
There are several separate but related issues when it comes to Penn Station (and you should keep that in mind and not just focus on the raw infra): the station, the tunnels, and through running. The station: Moynihan is a good station and first step, it sets up the Penn Station underneath MSG to be rebuilt when MSG is tore down (the city is pushing for this to happen soon). The station is arguably the most important part since that is what everyone sees and experiences. Through running: This seems like a good idea but it gets complicated given the constraints: track upgrades and new rolling stock are needed given overhead wires vs third rail; most importantly, the biggest issue is that it crosses a state border. Crossing a border may seem small to the outsider but it is a pretty big deal here since MTA and NJT are separate state-owned agencies and through running gets more complicated with trains, service, and revenue; Port Authority of NY/NJ was created to address a lot of these issues (it operates bridges and the interstate PATH subway) but such a massive expansion of it would be complicated. Building new tunnels under the Hudson has been a huge push by both states but it gets complicated given the border crossing I mentioned and how much it would cost/how it would be paid for. You propose good ideas, but they are complicated given constraints like the ones I mentioned. I'm looking forward to seeing more videos in this series!
If you want a lot of new content, you could launch a new series about proposed or possible improvements to transit systems in the US. There are a lot of proposals in US cities (under construction, planned, early, etc.) and you could get a lot of content exploring the plans or early studies, mapping them and possible alignments, ridership, impacts, construction, criticisms, etc. for different cities (e.g. Houston or Miami metro expansion). This could really expand your audience as people living in these communities love to hear about possible big infrastructure projects (do you have any idea how much buzz/attention was around Penn Station expansion and the 2nd ave subway from the general public?!).
In a similar vein, if you want more northeast/NY content for this series, you can look into the proposed 2nd Ave subway extension which overlaps with the proposed T line that shares track and runs down the east side to Lower Manhattan. Also, look at the Triboro proposed by the RPA (NY); it's especially interesting given that the ROW might need to accommodate freight traffic and need a different power option because of it.
Anecdote: You have a lot of videos covering Toronto bus and train stations and I don't watch any of these. It's nothing personal, I'm just not from the GTA or Canadian (I live in New York if you can't tell from above) so it seems limiting. Going over system expansions is a lot more exciting regardless of the country vs individual stations that affect a relatively small number of your viewers. Keep up the good work and I'll keep watching! I'll likely subscribe on patreon and reach out through there.
I appreciate the comment. Regarding videos of Toronto station work and expansion, it’s critical I cover it in my eyes~ nobody else is and the regional rail expansion in Toronto is the largest transit project scope wise in North America and the largest in Canadian History. I’ve watched similar videos for other countries (I watch lots of videos on Caltrain and CAHSR work, as well as similar works in other places). It’s also not the case that because I make local Canadian content (which is important to me) that I make any less international content! I know they don’t appeal to everyone but I don’t think you need to live in a place to appreciate the work going on there. And I’ve made videos about tons of stuff around the world, not because I live there or plan on it but because I think there’s lots of learnings to be had.
Re. the politics around through running, Hudson tunnels and the like - at the end of the day this is an issue that while it may seem big has been overcome in other locations with arguably tougher political environments and with similar multiagency systems. As I mentioned though I will likely go into that in a further video.
Where are suggested locations for a replacement for MSG? Somewhere else in Manhattan?
LIRR trains would never run in New Jersey. The unions and bureaucracy would stop that from ever happening. Actually one of the reasons they never used the lower level of grand central for LIRR trains for ESA was because they did not want LIRR crews mixing with Metro North crews. Because that would lead to the consolidation of the two MTA railroads which the unions don’t want.
They won’t with that attitude!
LIRR would also be importing NJT’s reliability issues and vice versa. An issue with the tracks or electric power causing delays in NJ (happens all the time) would cascade and cause delays on LIRR and MetroNorth if trains were all through-running. You’d need to solve the myriad reliability issues on NJT (and to a lesser degree on LIRR) for through-running to have a remote chance of working.
2:28 You may be interested in a proposal called "Trans-Regional Express" (shortened to T-REX) from an influential group called Regional Plan Association. RPA advocates for Penn South tracks not to be stub-ends but to continue into the East River tunnels as well
P.S. Worth noting that Transilien doesn't through-run, whereas RER in Paris does. For all intents and purposes, New York doesn't have RER; all we have is Transilien. T-REX proposes brand new RER-class services too
The only thing in this video I wholeheartedly disagree with is regarding Madison Square Garden. There's a reason that no plan to fix Penn Station has ever involved demolishing MSG. It's beloved by NYers and is easily the most famous arena in the world. Maybe back in 2009 you could make the case to demolish it given is tiny concourses, ugly color scheme of pink and teal around the venue, and the fact all the suites were on the freaking roof. However, after the 2011-13 renovation, where the concourses were massively expanded, the seats and bowl were completely replaced, and the suites were mostly moved between the upper and lower decks, it's easily one of the best venues to watch a game or concert in the world.
I was looking forward to this video, keep up the great work!
its great to see you cover American transit.
Could you make a video about the potential of the LA-San Diego corridor? I'm not an expert of anything but I see huge potential in that corridor.
I will!
@@RMTransit It's interesting that CAHSR prioritizes an inland empire route (serving more people at the expense of directness) between LA and SD. While that would be great, they could achieve a huge improvement by speeding up the current LOSSAN route to 110mph (it's 90mph in spots but there's still a lot of slow areas).
I agree 100% odd decisions have been made
@@RMTransit More recent plans (From California's State rail plan, and proposals in San Diego County) are shifting to commiting to nvesting in BOTH the Coast and Inland corridors between LA and SD. Indeed, I would say that California's state rail plan represents the single most ambitous and thought out proposals in the US right now.
I am from San Diego, and I will be interested in hearing about my home city's transportation!
You should check out Britomart station here in Auckland New Zealand as this was also an old Post Office , and right now they hve 5 terminating tracks and in 4 years 2 will be turned into through tracks when the CRL is finished . And 2 weeks ago the whole Station was closed down when the Tnnel leading down to the platforms when the rails had to be repaired .
Check out my video on CRL!
th-cam.com/video/qW0aYaveOK0/w-d-xo.html
The idea of a run-through Penn Station reminds of the total rebuild of Stazione Porta Susa in Turin, Italy. Before the rebuild it was a small surface station. Now it is an underground station with six platforms that handle different trains depending on the platform. Tracks 1-2 is mainly for high speed Frecciarossa and the Milan-Turin limited stop regional. Tracks 3-4, other Trenitalia intercity trains as well as high speed NTV Italo trains. Tracks 5-6, regional and commuter SFM trains (think NJ Transit or LIRR types of routes). This topped by an atrium that is now a modern landmark of Turin. While a lot smaller than Penn Station, the new Porta Susa could serve as a model of what Penn Station could be.
In terms of progress with the new Moynihan Train Hall it definitely revitalized the aesthetics of the Amtrak wing of the station. Now for the LIRR wing that is in desperate need of redevelopment. This expansion for Penn south would mostly serve NJ Transit trains and open up space for the proposed Metro-North extension. I've also seen thrown around a proposal to extend the 7 line as a branch for Penn south.
The problem is it doesn’t expand space in the long term, only for the current inefficient operations
@@RMTransit This. And, it should be noted that the new hall only takes up part of the old post office building, with the rest dedicated to corporate offices like those of Facebook. I get the scheme and funding compromises, but wish they could have used the entire building for transit, especially since it was originally designed in complementary style to the old Penn Station. Plus the new arrangement still funnels Amtrak customers narrowly and inefficiently down to their platforms at the opposite end from the rest of Penn Station. But don't get your hopes up on the rest of the station, MSG isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
What’s your take on the recent announcement of the updated plans to Penn?
I think that instead of the new train haul they should have removed MSG and the building that is now the new train haul. Built new tunnels into New Jersey. Built bus lanes or a guided busway from the Lincoln Tunnel to Penn Station. And finally build a new transit hub. If they also made airport express trains they could make Penn Station into the cities transit hub for all modes other then boats. And if they removed all of the buildings on top it would be easier to renovate the track layout.
What are your thoughts on the soon to open LIRR station at Grand Central under 1 Vanderbuilt (East 42nd street)?
You should check out Re Think NYC PENN STATION. Interesting.
Out of topic, but still curious ro ask the audience here: Who else see terminal station at a ground level with no stairs from trains to the street as a best experience of departing and arrival?
Not talking efficiency, at all, but if you have been to one like that, please tell me, I'm feeling alone in that :)
As for the video - great job!
Not too far from Penn Station is Grand Central Terminal. Exactly like that.
Well, underground, but a lot more ramps! If your train is in the upper level and you enter through the street, then there's 0 stairs. And the walk from the beautiful main concourse to the platform is completely flat. (There's also a lower level with even more platforms where you do need to use stairs, escalators, or steep ramps)
If you come from the metro (known here as the subway) however, stairs are inevitable, but it will become obvious when you transition from subway territory to one of the terminal's passages. From that point, a lot of flatness.
Fun fact: the destruction of the old Penn Station began a historic preservation movement, and Grand Central was saved as a result. So yeah, the Grand Central of today is the same beautiful one from 1913, and restored
@@samuelitooooo I was just lucky enough to once be in Zurich and see a train station handling 3k+ trains per day, having both a huge set of end-platforms and with underground through parts. The main queue platform, if that's a right term, is step free and open to the main city street and lots of greenery outside. It's just felt to good to arrive like that not to comment on that)
In the video in regards to NYC the point is not to have an end station at the end of new tunnels. Here comparison to a terminus being less efficient as a design is not applied since Pen is a through one already and tunnels have only one exit and by no means are going to be used to change route after reversal. It's essentially one main line branching way past the station, so any design is of same efficiency, not counting platform width e.t.c
I live in the Boston area. Boston South Station is exactly as you describe. The downside is that southward and northward services need to operate or of different stations in different parts of the city. If you want to take Amtrak from, say, New York City to Maine, you have to take the Northeast Regional or Acela from NY Penn to Boston South, then somehow find your way across downtown Boston to Boston North to continue northward on the Downeaster. Options for getting between the stations include a 1.2 mile walk down narrow streets with luggage, a five minute taxi ride (plus traffic), or a two-seat subway ride.
@@andrew_ray That situation is pretty bad for my eye. My point is more about central station with such feature.
I do agree. It is nice to be able to get to any platform from the main building just by walking along the end of the tracks.
Super video, and I absolutely agree with your contention about through services. One reason so big a percentage of passengers are only to/from the city center is that making through journeys is made difficult and time-consuming. Many European cities have converted a 'terminal' system into a 'through' system very successfully. My own home capital - London UK - suffers from an excess of terminals (for historical reasons) and, because crossing London is such a pain, people drive and fill the M25 ring-road. I believe that a major increase in rail passengers is available from re-designing for better cross-city rail-travel and this will be essential, both for commercial reasons following covid, and to deal with climate change.
My own thought is for a triangular cross-city rail system - three four-track lines, each crossing the two others, making a triangle of interchange stations: in London, stations for the West End ( down-town), City (business) and South Bank. Each station would probably need to be only two platform tracks in each direction or, at most, four. Any cross-city journey could be made made either straight-through, or with one easy change. You would know better than me how that could translate in NYC.
I feel Tokyo & Osaka layouted their tracks better by connecting their major stations (e.g. Shinjuku, Ueno, Shinagawa and Namba, Tennoji) together in loops (forming the Yamanote & Osaka Loop lines respectively, though the latter lacks express or passing tracks which slows down the longer-distance trains that skip intermediate stops but have to travel slower to avoid crashing into local trains ahead), with various train routes going outbound from these cities branching off these loops
Truer words could not have been spoken! I believe that Penn not only needs access west of the Hudson, but also to Grand Central, at least later down the line.
I think that the tunnels should route into existing tracks (at least for cost-saving), but I can understand why a new concourse would be needed and included if they're anyways digging up the ground. Expanded platforms would be a welcome addition for RER-like service as a means to prevent overcrowding. I must say however, I'm slightly skeptical of using the edge platforms for Amtrak since there has to be crossovers with NJ Transit trains, which could present some really tight scheduling at best. A good solution in my opinion at least would be to dedicate two tunnels for Amtrak and two for NJT, thus reducing any sort of crossovers that increase chances of delay and danger.
Speaking of the new tunnels to Grand Central, I think this could be used as a great opportunity to extend the range of all three commuter lines, thus expanding markets served, not to mention help Amtrak use another terminal in New York as to prevent overcrowding in Penn Station in the future.
I hope that the governments realize that bickering over funding for the tunnels as a political football while jeopardizing the safety of 20% of the U.S's GDP and the commuters using them is too risky. Ultimately, funding needs to come in order to fix this issue by drilling the two other tunnels in as timely a manner as possible, not to mention drill a new tunnel(s) to Grand Central, adding overhead cables in Grand Central and the tracks leading out the NEC.
Anyways, great video as always, and I'm eager for future episodes about Penn Access and the Northeast Corridor!
Re crossovers etc, you’d be running Long Island and NJT trains through the station, two tunnels would be dedicated to them and two would be shared between them and amtrak
Reece when will we get another Northeast Corridor or NYC regional rail video?
I cry about Penn stations demolish daily
3:24 madison square garden is considered one of the best arenas what are you talking about?
Hello from Kansas 🇺🇸
You bring up some great points
LIRR uses a 3rd rail and NJTransit use overhead wires for power. In order to have a through running service the power infrastructure or the complete rolling stock would need to be changed.
Yep, as I said I'll cover it in another video! I'd prefer just expanding the overhead tho
I hope you will find out anything about the Gateway Tunnel that has been built between New York and New Jersey. Otherwise, I enjoyed your coverage about Pennsylvania Station. It pertains to me.
I think the issue of the south concourse being a terminal rather than a thru station is somewhat mitigated by the fact the NJ Transit trains and even some Amtrak Trains are going to be terminating there anyway. There's always a sizable chunk of trains that don't need to go through, and moving them out of the thru platforms is still a good way of freeing up capacity.
Perhaps, but through running them WOULD be more efficient
Another example of a through station is Shinagawa in Japan, dedicated platforms for the Shinkansen and for other services.
We find the same thing in China or in Europe ....
Massy palaiseau (TGV) Roissy CDG (TGV) for France ...
Madrid Atocha / Chamartin for Spain,
Hamburg Hbnf, Berlin sudkreuz or Hbnf for Germany.
Repairing all 7000 series Metro cars, they had to get the 3 and 4 series and run only 6 instead of 8 cars every 12 to 15 minutes.
"not great" is being nice. It's HELL
0:45 TIL there is a town called lebanon there!
As far as a through station majority of the NJT trains terminate at Penn Station as they do not pass through for revenue service, they to go to Hudson yard. Many of NJT will basically unload and the crew will either change ends or another crew takes over and they head back west in to NJ. As is the same LIRR doesn’t run through the Hudson River tunnel to NJ therefore most of there equipment terminates at Penn and is then set back east on to their lines. Only service to really pass through would be Amtrak to Boston or the othe way to DC and they run less trains then both commuter services do on a daily basis so I dunno how your pass through style would really help ease any of the issues they see.
Actually, NJ Transit trains use Sunnyside Yard in Queens. Hudson Yard is only used by the LIRR.
@@davidfrischknecht8261 you are correct, I knew this just got names confused as my father is a retired penn central nj transit engineer and we don’t live in the area anymore. Thanks for correcting it.
The southern annexe would allow NJ Transit trains to be completed removed from the main Penn Station and allow progressive redevelopment. Through-running/merging NJ and LIRR trains would be a challenge as they’re operated by two different states.
Rebuild the original Penn Station!
I really love the videos you do here but I have to ask, did you go to school for this kind of stuff? Cause I’m in high school and I’m really interested in doing this stuff so I was just wondering if you have some sort of career or education in this field.
Didn’t go to school for it, but I am in the industry yes
Through running as a RER service is a nice idea but not going to happen. Not only because of the way transit agencies are set up here per state (New Jersey Transit, Long Island Railroad (LIRR) and MetroNorth all cover only a specific territory), but also the question is: how many passengers from New Jersey have actually destinations in Queens / Long Island / Westchester and vice versa? Plus LIRR electric trains work on top 3rd rail and New Jersey trains take overhead power, so unless they have dual-mode locomotives (diesel-electric, LIRR has these), there can't be through running in Penn station.
The only destinations I can think of that would be great for through running are are Newark and JFK Airports, for which it would be great if you have a continuing service through Penn Station from New Jersey to Jamaica, for JFK, and from Long Island or Westchester to Newark Penn station and Newark airport.
Also note that Amtrak has some regional through running already with NorthEast Regional trains, with hourly service from New Jersey to New Rochelle in Westchester.
And in the future, when some LIRR trains go to Grand Central terminal instead, which enables MetroNorth trains (who can operate on overhead power) from Stamford and New Rochelle to get into Penn station, you could have these MetroNorth trains continue to Newark airport, making all stops. In the past there have been a few special MetroNorth game trains from Stamford via New Rochelle and Hell's gate bridge to Penn station and then to Secaucus juction in New Jersey, for game days at Meadowlands stadium, so technically this is possible.
So basically through running won’t work because we haven’t made it work, but if we wanted it to then it could
@@RMTransit No. My point is that in my opinion there wouldn't be enough of a market for it. I would rather have investments go to a new Triboro ringline from the Bronx via Queens to Brooklyn, bypassing Manhattan. Much more useful.
Again though, building it would help create said market
“If you build it they will come” sounds nice in theory but doesn’t work that way practically speaking. See the disappointing transit ridership figures in many parts of California despite all the investment. This isn’t Tokyo-Yokohama-Chiba-Saitama. Suburban employment centers - e.g. White Plains, Stamford or Metropark - employ just a fraction of workers compared to Midtown Manhattan. Those suburban centers would need to expand drastically for there to be such demand for through service. Better transit service would help, but more important is undoing half a century of suburban land use patterns to encourage more concentration of employment around suburban transit hubs. And that’s an even bigger lift than realizing through-running in Penn Station.
At the same time that the U.S. was tearing down Penn. station the government was spending billion's to go to the moon. What and insane allocation of resources.
Pennsylvania Railroad built building and owned the building. They also built all the tunnels and tracks. Government had nothing to do with it.
Governor Christie killed the Hudson quadruplication project in his first term.
Didn’t that plan not include through running for the new tunnels?
@@RMTransit If you’re referring to through running particularly for NJT/LIRR, state bureaucracy is the main obstacle for that. They would have to come up with a codeshare agreement like the airlines in order to convey passengers through Manhattan. It was a mess up mostly because NJ had to fork out a small amount of funds to get federal matching dollars. NY state was on board but the whole project was abandoned because of NJ. If it came up now and 36 years of Biden riding Amtrak will guarantee that there’ll be another attempt it might work out.
The current plan is definitely the best plan for New York to be New York, that is, to spend as much money as possible to accomplish something of limited value.
What is causing people to enjoy sudden jumps throughout videos like this? Is a lack of distraction somehow boring?
Having used Penn Station as a tourist travelling across North America (with spouse and kids aged 10 and 8 at the time) from Australia, I just hated that station. We were using Amtrak from Syracuse and to DC. Both times an unpleasant mess. Montréal, Toronto and DC far superior.
Why does the Vancouver train map behind you look like a London Underground map?
That’s just the style
btw the instagram link in the description doesn't work
Rebuild Penn station more platform and get of msg
Blow up Madison Square garden
There should be at least one complete platformless track where trains do not stop a Penn Station for freight service.
The New York City area has a massiv deficient of freight rail.
The only way to get freight rail into NYC is by bardge, loading 10 cars or so onto one barge, pice by pice over the bay.
Or taking the long route over the Alfred H. Smith Memorial Bridge. an overall 450km (280mi) detour up the Hudson silver and than back down.
I’m sorry but there’s no way freight is running through Penn!
saying that demolishing the old penn station was a mistake is absolutely right, but calling msg not even one of the nicest arenas in the world is blasphemy. come on, you don't need to do that to get your point across
It’s not though, its decidedly average
@@RMTransit in the words of the dude: thats like, your opinion, man
All of the Regional rails terminate at Penn Station except for football games. NJ transit doesn't go east and LIRR doesn't go west.
That’s actually not true!
@@RMTransit want to elaborate?
Both Lirr and NJ transit pass through, Lirr to the West side yard and NJ to Sunnyside.
like 3
That’s nonsensical to place only Regional trains on the central platforms, your InterCity through trains in Europe do not stop for long periods of time. You start by saying about the negatives of terminus station and then talk about parking up Amtrak trains on dedicated platforms of a through station, you really need to stop thinking about Penn being an end of line station if you want to invest billions on ideal connectivity. Take Eurostar serving London to Paris which are a close sister train sets to the new kit coming onto the North West Corridor. These trains are 18 carriages long and they cope with short time stops at Cities which are Intermediate stations by passengers mounting at various points at the same time, the width of the platform is not wide but the length is considerable, yes 18 carriages is a dictate of Fire Safety on the Channel Tunnel but the same principle of long trains work in other European connecting cities, Japan and China. If you want through train benefits you really need a system like at Lille, France where the platforms are both Regional and Intercity with dedicated lounges above but shared platform use, Intercity passengers are released to the specific platform about 5 to 10 minutes prior to the train arriving and no train sits in a station for lengthy periods for passengers to turn up and go, this way no platform is dedicated to one train type. You should also look at the Southern solution as further needed capacity because Jersey regional trains can terminate here and run back allowing legacy platforms to refocus on through train traffic and as you said the lengthy necessary period of time needed to take facilities off line and upgrade them. New York shares a lot of the same headaches of London. There was an excellent American Engineer on the building of the CrossRail scheme in London she had to build a new tunnel through an old legacy tunnel that crossed under a working dock, she had a deadline to close it off, get the job done and let the dock reconnect to the Thames river before an International Boat for sure you need people with her experience on this Penn development. Personally the Penn project could benefit below ground by fixing above, you look at how Airports create pleasant environments some way off from the departure gates and the funnel passengers as and when needed to the gate which gives the operations side more flexibility at peak periods, surely New York can do Penn Station. justice and return it to its former glory, it will be a massive tourist attraction plus Hollywood would want it for filming. Madison Stadium is an eyesore to New Yorkers.
I pray that they get rid of Madison square garden.
Every video you make about nyc seams to be not good.
Never been to New York but the station looks very dodgy. A place to avoid