Fun fact: the Seoul Subway line 2 was designed by the mayor in about 20 minutes by just drawing a line on a map with a pencil and ruler. Also, the two branches going off (the Seongsu branch line and the Sinjeong branch line) are not part of the main line. The main line trains do not enter that part unless going to the depot and just remain in the loop until they need to go to two of the many depots on the line. The branches have dedicated service that have termini at the end of the branch and at the station the branch begins at!
Oh, you're talking about Moscow, so let me tell you -- loop lines AND roads are big here! We love that stuff! Moscow not only (almost) have three loop metro lines (rings, as we call it), but there are also a number of loop car roads: Boulevard Ring, Garden Ring, The Third Ring Road, and Moscow Ring Road. Each of them is very important for the city, has a big history and big traffic of cars on every single day. There is representation of those roads in popular culture, music, jokes, memes etc. When The Third Ring Road was in active development, it was a big news topic for Russian media, and the then mayor of Moscow, Yuri Luzhkov, was often called "The Lord of the Rings" in press. But ring roads aren't limited to just inside of Moscow; after 20 years of planning and building, Central Ring Road has been finally opened this year. And last but not least, Saint Petersburg Ring Road is also a very important object of Russian infrastructure.
A semicircle rail line around Toronto actually sounds very useful. And a semicircle also avoids one of the issues full circles have. They have no terminus, which makes dealing with delays very tricky. That's the reason why the London Circle line is actually a spiral today, but a semicircle would work as well in cases such as Toronto or Chicago.
London's Overground network also doesn't operate services around the whole loop for similar reasons. South London Line and West London Line trains meet and terminate at Clapham Junction, a superhub interchange with long and short-distance heavy rail commuter services. Also sharing the northern part of the circle (the North London Line) is another end-to-end route that flies off to Richmond in the west and to Stratford in the East, both also big heavy rail interchanges.
A semicircle line in NYC serving the Bronx-Queens-Brooklyn would be a massive hit. The proposed Triboro Line, while serving many useful areas and having superb connections to radial lines, fails in a few ways. First, it converts to a radial line in the Bronx which defeats the purpose of the ambitious project. Second, conflicts with other rail services including Metro North’s Penn Access will limit its usefulness as a transit service. Definitely should just build an above ground REM emulation instead. Perhaps a second semicircle loop could focus first on Eastern Queens, reimagining the JFK AirTrain to connect JFK, Jamaica, Queens Medical Center, Queens College, Downtown Flushing, College Point and perhaps eventually an extension to the Bronx.
Loop lines are great but the interchange stations must be designed well and must not have huge distances to walk from one line to other. An example of badly done loop line(though it doesn't make a complete loop) is Delhi Metro's Pink line. The interchange platforms of intersecting lines are far apart and one has to walk 300m at best to 1.5km at worst just to change the train at supposedly single station. This adds to travel time and commute fatigue and reduced ridership.
Chicago would seriously benefit from a large circle line outside of the loop. Relying on the downtown loop to make transfers just isn't very practical because a lot of people end up riding all the way downtown just to transfer and go back out of downtown on a different train
This is the problem with just about all systems in the US. They are all radial and none of them let you transfer anywhere but downtown. This means unless you need to visit something on your radial you may have a pretty difficult time or need to switch to a much slower and less frequent form of transit. For example, the Chicago suburbs have some coverage in the form of Metra and the Pace buses. But the buses now put you in traffic and have interesting scheduling as well as routes. It doesn't really end up serving the larger loop's purpose.
@@carstarsarstenstesenn How much eminent domain will need to be invoked will very much depend on the route chosen and where/when it is above ground versus underground. But this is kind of a problem with large infrastructure everywhere and anywhere around the world when it is being added after people are there. Should we not build any of it even if it means a greener, healthier, more equitable city?
Here's the nice thing about the JR East Yamanote Line: _it makes navigating around Tokyo actually easier_ . Reason: the stations of the Yamanote Line can act as navigation points for reference, something really important given the messy jumble of streets in central Tokyo itself.
The Yamanote line connects most of the major urban centers of Tokyo. Heck you could have a fine Tokyo trip just by riding the Yamanote and getting off at anywhere that looked interesting or whose name you recognized. Shibuya, Shinjuku, Harajuku, Ikebukuro, Akihabara, etc.
Basically circular lines maximize the number of newly created trips that weren't previously possible on transit exclusively. When one circle line is built, not only does it serve those who live nearby it but also serves the people who live nearby the many lines to which it connects, in the case that they have somewhere to go near on another line that was previously disconnected / not quite as easy to transfer to from their own stop
I would have loved a loop line in Chicago, "The Loop" is not really a hugely utilitarian loop line as most of it is easily walk-able, it's more of a giant transfer hub. Boston, MA could certainly use one.
Chicago is the PERFECT city to have a huge outward semi circle. Two actually. Outer Circle, mid circle and of course “The Loop” would make it the envy of many cities.
@@lookatthisguyhere7712 Pretty much, especially with how Metra and the CTA lines branch out of the city. Those additional loops could really serve a lot of people and make for some fantastic transit.
@@counterfit5 the inner semicircle could run from Andrew Square South Boston to Mass Ave and Cass to Ruggles to Museum of Fine Arts to the BU Bridge to Central Square Cambridge to Union Square Somerville to Sullivan Square Charlestown
NYC really needs to get on its triboro Rx line. As someone who traveled frequently from Brooklyn to Queens, the two most populated boroughs, it would be so useful.
Chicago’s once proposed (hopefully, one day it will be built) Mid-City transitway is not a circle, but would have accomplished the same task of moving people between nearly all of the cities various rail transit lines, providing an outer arc to the hub-and-spoke network. Because of this, ridership in when it was studied in the early 2000s was to be 94,000 riders per day, which would make it the third-highest CTA line by ridership. I want to see them build it, but using faster and automated rolling stock. Model it after the REM.
and now I got to the point in the video where you recommend using REM style rolling sock for a turnkey system for such a line. Right on. Parallel thinking
Also, the never-built Metra STAR Line would have provided such a line for suburban Chicago, connecting suburbs and commuter lines. Unlike Melbourne’s system, it would not have been a subway. It would have run on an existing rail corridor for most its route, with the rest running in a highway medisn
Also, there was talk of building a CTA “ Circle Line” super loop, which would connect all of the downtown CTA lines in an outer loop, but would be much closer to the Downtown, so not as useful to the outer reaches of the city as the Mid City Transitway would be. Also, would probably be expensive due to land acquisition and likely subway sections. The Mid City Transitway, while significantly longer, would have no subway sections, perhaps similar or lower land acquisition costs, and would serve areas of the city currently without rapid transit at stations between its interchanges (while the Circle Line proposal would not really have many intermediate stations between interchanges). I prefer the Mid City Transitway over the Circle Line.
@@AlecSchwengler it is one of the two BEST transit projects that aren’t in the works. The other is restructuring the Metra Elecrtic District. Metra Electric District’s inner tracks should serve most existing platforms (except the least-used, which can be closed) on the main branch through 111th Street and on the South Shore Branch with rapid-transit style headways (probably requiring new single-level equipment optimized for frequent headways, though) while its outer tracks can remain in use by suburban commuter service and the South Shore Line. (The Blue Island Branch, unfortunately, probably needs to either shut down to revenue service, or be reconstituted as a separate service providing a timed transfer ferry service between the Rock Island District and the Electric District suburban commuter trains. A new station could be built near the Kensington Yards to be the location of timed transfers to the commuter MED trains) The Metra Electric District restructuring would finally provide the south lakefront with better transit, comparable to the North lakefront’s CTA transit
Chicago had a plan for a much needed circle line going around downtown and connecting with almost all of the lines, using a lot of existing tracks. It did also go through downtown because, like Toronto, the city's downtown is along the lake. It got a lot of support but was shelved due to the expense of tunneling through the North Side section and Near West section of the circle. Los Angeles could really use a circle line, perhaps two. A line from Pasadena through Glendale and Burbank to Van Nuys, to LAX, across South Central LA, to Downey and up through Montebello and Alhambra back to Pasadena, as an example, would meet some of LA's large number of peripheral commutes. A loop line from LAX, across South Central LA to Downey (shared w the other Circle line), down to Long Beach, to Torrance, and back to LAX could also have a similar impact.
Cincinnati has a really large abandoned subway project (partially built, abandoned due to post-WWI inflation) that partially used an old canal, and it would have been a 17-mile loop line connecting the neighborhoods of Downtown, Northside, Norwood, Hyde Park, and others. The right-of-way was later used for sections of I-75, I-71, and the Norwood Lateral, which allows an easy glance on Google Maps to see the route. As a Cincinnati native, I always thought it would have been so cool to be one of the few American cities with a loop line!
Chicago needs a circle, or a C line around the city and suburbs to connect the various CTA and Metra line spokes. Maybe a smaller CTA C line and also a much larger Metra C (or circle) line.
Chicago's loop is in the city center. I think they need at least another loop. It could roughly follow i294 or any nearby existing tracks and intersect with almost every suburban line. Sure, it might not be a circle, but I think it is needed regardless.
Look up the Lime Line. It was a proposal a few years back that would start at the northern branch of the blue line, travel south along Cicero to midway, and then curve East to meet up with the red line. It would use almost all existing rail lines.
In New York, there have been proposals for loop or semi-loop services. In 1926, the North Jersey Transit Commission proposed a loop service between Jersey City, Battery Park, Midtown Manhattan, Union City, and back. This was completely separate from the PATH system (the H&M), and would have also funneled today's Montclair, Pascack Valley, Ridgewood, and Paterson lines into the loop. The RPA (Regional Plan Association) has also long proposed the Triboro RX line that would utilize the freight Bay Ridge line from Bay Ridge to Jackson Heights and the Bronx. It's more like 45% of a circle but it would completely avoid Manhattan, and it would be easier for residents to get to places like Middle Village, East New York, or Brooklyn Collge without backtracking.
Moscow's circle line (first one, underground) is also quite popular because it connecting all busiest railway terminals, excluding only rizhskiy and savyolovsky (they however only have suburban service nowadays). Getting, for example, from South of Russia to North by train with interchange in Moscow requies to make only one metro ride on circle line without making any interchanges.
The big circle line that you have mentioned is have also quite interesting story: it is a some sort of mix of old Soviet project (even bigger circle, that were parallel to MCC in some places) and new modern project (four lines from one neighborhood to another without getting to the city center)
I wonder if Calgary and Edmonton might actually be the first Canadian cities to do circle lines, since they’re pretty, well, circular. Either them or Montreal, since Toronto don’t really fit a circle well.
Toronto could have a full circular line. You’ll have the semi circle mentioned in the video, plus a harbour front stretch to connect the two ends of the semicircle. This can help serve the waterfront of tornto
Edmonton did originally have a circulator plan when it first proposed its low-floor LRT system. The whole low-floor network (3 lines) was to be interlined; Valley Line: Millwoods to Lewis Farms via downtown Energy Line: Sherwood Park to Lewis Farms via the University of Alberta Festival Line: Sherwood Park to Millwoods via downtown and the University That plan is no longer part of the overall city plan going forward. It would have required either using the High Level Bridge (which subsequently was found to have major structural issues that would require a complete rebuild) or building another LRT bridge beside the existing high-floor Menzies LRT bridge.
I've long thought about it, but the prices could make things difficult. That said Edmonton could probably affordably build one along its ring road connecting to future extensions beyond it!
@@RMTransit The Henday is located in a wide ROW called a TUC (transportation and utility corridor) owned by the province. There might be room for a rail line there, but it would be extremely expensive and challenging to work around not just the freeway and its interchanges, but all the utilities located there as well. That said, it could be a very impressive part of a regional rail network for the greater Edmonton area. Dream big or go home!
Loop lines help reduce congestion at central hubs. Whenever you want to go from one peripheral point to the other (and you are not going straight through the middle) a circle line can be very helpful, especially if it is well connected to the radial lines and changing only takes a minute or two.
I find it fascinating how Paris’s original circle line, the Petite Ceinture, essentially failed as a public transport thing after the Metro was introduced. But I think the things in this video do explain it, especially the part about something the line needing something to connect to. The Petite Ceinture didn’t have that, because it essentially connected the freight yards of the major stations instead of their travelers, and it was (in its day) too far outside to be useful as an interconnect supplementing the Metro network.
How great would it be to reinstate it !! I know that it is impossible given the current state of its tracks (and I'm guessing that La Recyclerie wouldn't be too happy about it), but the tram service just does not feel appropriate anymore...
Talking about turning existing Infrastructure into a ring Line, there are plans to create a regional train line in berlin using the sencond, outer ring that are mostly used by freight trains at the moment.
I think basically all parts of the outer circle do have passenger service (RE and RB trains), but there isn’t one single circle line, and most of those services are very low frequency. Definitely a good idea to increase this, though, mostly to help develop the towns along the line.
Makes sense. Many subway lines go from suburb to city center, but not enough go from suburb to suburb. These circle lines are a great way to get around the city!
Hey Reece, you should check out what Lisbon, Portugal is doing about a metro circle line. We are going to merge two radial lines to create a circular one, but in doing so, one of those radial lines (yellow) gets transformed into a spur line and loses its usefulness in having a direct connection from one of the main suburbs to downtown, the other line (green) fully becomes part of the loop line. This line expansion/conversion won't connect to any new interfaces, so the circle line will only have the same interfaces that the current two lines have. Only 8 out of a total of 22 stations will have direct connections to other metro lines or above ground trains. So, if as you said, circle lines are great because they connect to many other lines and systems (I agree with this BTW), is what Lisbon is doing an example on how NOT to build a circle line? The only advantage from this project is that one of the central train stations (Cais do Sodré) gets Metro service going two different ways instead of just being a terminal station, easily dispersing a bigger crowd of commuters. But this is counteracted by the fact that now, the new spur line (yellow) has to dump all its commuters on an already overcapacity Metro station (Campo grande). I would love to hear opinion on this. Thanks and keep up the good work.
we had a circle line bus service once, it was quite popular, I once rode it all the way around and it took 3 hours to go around it from my starting point, they have another circle line bus service that does the inner city that is much smaller but is still quite popular, it was free the last time I checked, to encourage people to just hop on and off it. They have a tram service here that is free inside the city and there is a stretch that is always packed, it goes from a parking complex that has $5 per day parking and takes you into the city, for free, encouraging people to use public transit and keep traffic out of the city, it works well. I just use circle lines mostly to explore and if I'm bored, spend a little coin, sure I'm not going to be spending $300 at a small cafe, but I'm sure they will be happy with my small coffee and cake purchase.
About seoul's line 2, the tips that you complained about are branch lines, which were built for connecting train depots(so its necessary). They are operated seperately from the main line and does not hinder the main line's traffic(most of the time)
Thank you for a very informative video. The more I see and read about (1) the Moscow 'Central Circle', (2) the plans for the Grand Paris Express automatic metro and (3) the success of the London OVERground, the more I think that London does not need any more lines in the city centre. The OVERground circles London about five miles from its centre. What London now needs is an automated Outer Circle metro circling the city at about ten miles from the centre.
There's a project to join lines C, E and H of the Buenos Aires subte (subway) in order to create a circular line around the city centre. It would connect all of the main train stations (Constitución, Retiro and Once) and transport hubs. The good thing about it is that it wouldn't be hugely costly (Argentina's not great as far as financing goes) as most of the tunnels have already been dug up because they're currently in use by those three lines. All in all, excellent video as always, circle lines are almost always a great choice!
I speak a bit of Russian (I'm an aussie) so I've been watching a few videos of the new Moscow outer loop and diameter lines opening. Man they're putting their money where their mouths are. Really amazing stations. Moscow does metro rail so damn well. (Although I don't like how they give different names to stations that are connected, it's like if King's Cross/SP gave a different station name to all the underground stations connect to it, it's so confusing)
It's not that confusing because in Russian metros every line has its own stations and every train on a line only goes in that one direction of the line. There are no crossings of lines within one station and also no branch offs. If two stations are in one place or part of a big transit hub, they are mostly built over or next to each other. So you can transit from one line to another but there are no different lines on one platform. It's actually quite easy. You don't have to pay attention to whether it's the right train or not because if you're in the right station, it's the right train. In Moscow the interval between trains is like 90 seconds and a countdown clock in every station shows when the next train arrives.
How about Lisbon metro for the portuguese folk in here? It's also gonna have a future circle line too :3 (It's our green line that's gonna become circular btw)
@@Batcow-1138 Ahh, yeah. I knew that. I just hadn't thought of it as a semi-circle. Just as a very much needed way of connecting the southwest with the northeast.
You mentioned DC: the purple line! IMHO, one of the best loop lines is Montpellier tram line 4. The first 2 lines were built with really awkward routes in the center *on purpose* and then were straightened out as more lines were built, and they got a circle line "for free". It's a planning masterpiece.
Shout out to the Glasgow Subway - it's literally just one circular line with 12 stops. Only underground system in Scotland, and we love it. It also has the worst rolling stock I've ever seen on an underground system, it's even smaller and more tube-like than the older deep line London tube trains
San Diego has the Orange line trolley from downtown through La Mesa to El Cajon as well as the Green line from downtown through Mission Valley to La Mesa, El Cajon and Santee. The two lines can be used as a circle through the shared stations downtown and in La Mesa, and the trains are timed for transfers as much as possible. Not quite a circle, but not too far off.
Another great demystified video, keep them up! Here in Melbourne we've proposed probably the worst implementation of a circle line, the suburban rail loop, which is proposed to be mostly underground, it would take decades to dig before they can even lay the tracks
I'm still a fan of reopening the Outer and inner circle lines as one circle, just need a connection between Russel and Westgarth, also wouldn't hurt to expand it to Flemington Racecourse just have to build a connection between Flemmington and Newmarket (also showgrounds really needs to become a fulltime station)
It's incredible how the government changed their stance from skyrail to tunnel boring because they incentivised the building of 4 boring machines. Funny how the one thing murdoch media doesn't rip into Dan Andrews for is a $50Bn project.
DC really needs not only 1 circle line but 2. An outer circle line that paralleled the beltway would be fantastic. Then an inner circle line that connected all the downtown lines and formed a loop around the mall including Georgetown would be fantastic.
Superb video ,you didn’t mention the Glasgow subway that’s a circle tube type system and has had a lot of work making modern and really nice also the Mersey rail loop in Liverpool that’s a metro type service too ,cheers 😊👍🏻
@@robertdaly9162 it connects to 2 national rail stations: Partick and Glasgow Queen Street (from Buchanan street via a tunnel). St Enoch station is also very close to Glasgow Central station
Great video! Copenhagen recently also opened a circle line connecting M1, M2 and M4 metro lines while also connecting to a large amount of S-train stations
A country like France could do with some more circle-ish or circumferential high speed lines that don't pass through Paris. It would be much more convenient to connect regional cities without having to change in Paris.
When the Bordeaux-Toulouse, Toulouse -Narbonne,Interconnexion Sud, and Montpellier -Perpignan lines will be completed (if it ever happens), the network will form a complete loop around France
My local city of Sacramento could benefit from circular lines really nicely. Our Gold Line got split from a U-shaped line into two axial lines, but if we got a Folsom-Roseville connection, and Watt-I80 extended to Roseville (note: Roseville is a suburban car-loving hellscape but is its own local center of sorts), then the outlying suburbs would have their connections strengthened. We could also really benefit from a loop that connects downtown/midtown to the expo center and Arden, which are a sort of second midtown, and would provide a vauluable start to infill services in a well-populated area that is lacking in rail services.
In Melbourne there is a outer circle line running from Cheltenham to Clayton to Glen Waverley to Box hill and it’s going to take forever to type the rest.
Great video - this got me thinking, Vancouver doesn't have a circle line, but does the skytrain do something similar? The "racket" shape created by the Expo and Millenium line connects suburban nodes together, and the Broadway subway is somewhat of a radial line as it'll be run parallel to the downtown core
Rhys will be like: “Did somebody mention the Vancouver sky train?!? Of course I’ll make a video” For reference; I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that!
Montreal really needs to loop the orange line! It’s a shame that it’s not been done yet, especially with all the planned developments like Mount Royal mall and the triangle area
@@RMTransit There has been plans in the works since at least 2009 to loop the orange line in Montreal / Laval. People were talking about it while I was in still in college. Unfortunately, hasn't happened yet. It would certainly make a lot of sense, as it's connection through most of the densest places in the region.
This is why I'm not impressed by the REM. It should be a loop instead of ending in terminals in the West Island and south shore. But that just shows who it's primarily designed for: the condo owners in the developments built by the real estate arm of the caisse at the end of those lines.
i really want a circle line for philly's regional rail. there are unused rights of way from chester to west chester and there used to be a trolley that went between west chester and frazer (which is on the thorndale line) if you continue the loop to the other reginal rail lines i think it would be a great system
Some fun trivia: that spur off the Broad Street subway was planned to be a full circle through the central city. Moral of the story: beware of being part of the dreaded "phase three" of any master plan
Taipei’s Circular Line is quite a project, in fact New Taipei City aims to construct a network of “3 rings 6 lines” to better connect Taipei, New Taipei City and Taoyuan, although 2 rings out of 3 are made up of several separate lines, but they still looks like rings.
I think Perth could really benefit from a circle line as it's highly radial. They are actually in the process of constructing the first transfer lines between two exisiting lines that doesn't go through the CBD (downtown) that could potentially turn into a circle line or at least a semi circle.
A circle line and an inner city light rail network would be the next two projects I hope get funded after Metronet. Brisbane needs a circle line desperately as well!
@@KhanPiesseONE it would be good if the proposed "trackless trams" in Scarborough, I think it is, we're upgraded to proper light rail, starting a network that could be expanded.
iirc the Stadler KISS being used on the moscow central circle was because a double decker Lastochka is being developed, so they tested how it would work on the MCC. I think just using longer trains would make more sense on the MCC because the platforms are already long and would fit a train thats longer than a regular lastochka. Also because double deckers have less door and boaring is harder
@@RMTransit above ground platforms are pretty long, enough to serve coupled Lastochkas I think. The problem however is with the only underground MCC station, Ploshchad Gagarina, which was actually built 15 years (!) before the MCC was launched! Back then passenger service on the Moscow railway circle was no more than a dream and I bet no one expected such a huge success of the MCC, probably this is a reason why this station was built shorter (about 180 meters - just a bit longer than a standard Moscow Metro station). Alternatively they could add a couple extra cars to existing Lastochkas which should fit Ploshchad Gagarina platform, but this might not be a long-term solution due to increasing ridership and ongoing new development around MCC stations.
The Osaka loop line does this cool thing. Local services operate normally as a loop, but rapid trains go around once (skipping some stations on the way) then slingshots eastward or southward. This means if you live on those lines, if you want to go somewhere in the city center, you don't have to switch trains at all (Assuming where you want to go is near a loop line station, which is very likely)
Something I feel about Singapore's (eventually to be completed) circle line is that its section along the southern coast feels more like a radial line than a circumferential one. Since the city center is on the southern coast, the sections south of the east west line go straight into the central area, and actually has some stations along this stretch in high-density residential areas, which can use the line as a radial line. A city like Toronto would also be in such a situation where you can't build a truly circumferential line around the city center, because one side is just water.
Paris already has a "circle line", it's just split in two. But except for two stations on line 2 (that almost nobody uses anyway), line 2 and 6 make a circle inside Paris, both meeting each other at their final stops (except one for line 2). They're also the two lines with the most above-ground tracks (to save on costs if I remember correctly). Which means that we know circles lines are good since... well, long. There has been demand for a circular line for Paris' suburbs for at least 50 years. The oldest archive I could find states that people are forced to drive because there's nothing to move people from suburb to suburb, and it's from 1978.
This is true. In the Philippines, the most used lines is the MRT 3 (a half circle line) and LRT line 1 (a straight line that connects to the north station of line 3 creating a loop)
Mexico City is building a BRT loop line (Metrobús linea 0 [zero because it’s a loop, but it’s the eighth line]). It’s going to be very cheap because they are using an existing Inner city car loop.
Singapore's Circle Line is a bit weird. The main termini are Dhoby Ghaut (on the "branch") to HarbourFront. The branch is the one from Promenade to Marina Bay. By 2026, they'll close the circle, but how they will operate the MRT line will be in question.
Portland got circle line streetcars recently, and they’re useful, but slow. I’d love a circle line MAX train that takes SE Holgate Blvd to connect between existing trackway. What we’ll be getting instead is a radial express bus service called TriMet FX a couple of major streets north which will connect those same trackways while also going downtown. I’ll use it, and TriMet says they’re building where demand for transit is highest, but I still hope they improve Holgate or a more southern street like Tacoma/Johnson Creek along the east side with a rail circle line in the future.
Honestly, I'd love to see your take on my home town, Karlsruhe's, transit system, especially now that the big part of the Kombilösung has been completed.
Loop Lines are useful in the game MiniMetro for different reasons. The game's stations (and where passengers want to go) are represented by shapes (multiple Circle, Square and Triangle stations and later on various other unique shapes) so you want to alternate between the three main shapes as often as possible, yet every time a line ends and the train has to double back, you are putting like-stations close to one another. The second possible reason is that trains have to cover half the ground on a closed loop line to complete the journey visiting the first station again. The central stations on a straight line get similar visiting but the further out ones have upto twice the wait to be visited again.
In my city Santo Domingo , it is tecnically impossible to make a circle line do to the unorganized layout and urbanism , our metro system is a similar layout of the Mexico City.
I'd be super curious to hear/watch your thoughts on Vancouver's SkyTrain with regards to loops. For context, about five years ago, Vancouver had a "loop line" with its Millennium Line. But with the Evergreen expansion, they decided to remove the loop and create two longer routes (the Evergreen Line was originally conceived as a separate line serving the Eastern Suburbs). Today, while the overall system still maintains the loop look, it's two lines that "intersect" at three stops (not including the third Canadian Line which goes north-south instead of east-west).
Before you mentioned it at 7:30, I was literally thinking while watching the video that the GTA should have a semi-circle line around the 905 belt. I envision the line starting in Mississauga, then going through Brampton, Vaughan and Markham, before terminating in Pickering. This would surely provide much needed rapid transit service between the suburbs of the 905.
San Jose has a large circular road which traverses most of the city and consists of (from north to east to south to west): montague expressway, capitol avenue, capitol expressway, hillsdale ave, camden ave, and then the san tomas expressway. Parts of san jose's VTA already occupy most of capitol avenue, and there is a planned extension down capitol expressway to the eastridge mall. A circular transit line on these existing ROW would be ideal, and would supplement the existing north-south line that already exists going through the middle of san jose.
In the case of Berlins loop line (Ringbahn) it serves another purpose that's quite popular among high school kids, namely a drinking game that's called "Ringbahn-Saufen", where two teams use the trains in opposite directions, have to get off at every stop to drink a pint at the nearest bar, get back on the train and repeat until you've done the circle. The team that comes in first wins.
The London Overground is indeed great. I just wish the trains were a bit faster and the frequencies were higher. Every 20 minutes is not quite enough to feel like it's part of the proper Underground network.
What you really need are tangential lines. You can still connect them to a full circle or operate them individually, which allows for more flexibility (for example, if some sections need way more capacity than others) and also to extend the lines on both ends to connect more destinations without needing to "bend the circle".
There are some city loop lines in Australia, but in a Underground version. In Sydney the Underground Heavy Railway line was the City Circle, which started build in the 1920's and was finally completed in 1956. Melbourne's Broad Gauge Metro system also had a underground railway loop in Melbourne's CBD Heavy Rail underground can be the best solution answer to deliver not only just commuter trains but as well as passing freight
Here in Pittsburgh, the geography would make a loop very difficult, although the city has so many great neighborhoods outside of downtown, mostly along the rivers, rather than being sort of evenly spread out like a city on a plain or basin would be.
Moscow's central circle first and foremost reason for existence was to alleviate overloaded transit stations and central parts of radial lines. So it's success depends on this - if there is no overload on central part of your transit system chance is that it is better to spend your resources on more radial lines. In St. Petersburg, Russia there are also plans for circle metro line and semi-circle railway line. But circle metro line always gets postponed in favor of extensions of existing radial lines or building new ones, while rail semi-circle seems to be in favor right now
St Petersburg is notoriously slow at building new stations in general, so this is unsurprising. Also I really wish the city would focus on ferries since it seems perfectly suited for them
The Glasgow Subway is a circle line, but it is mostly used to link the city centre to Hillhead where Glasgow University is located, and to a lesser extent, to link the city centre to Ibrox stadium on match days. I part of the reason is that the only links to the rail network are at Partick, at Buchannan Street which is a short walk from Queen Street, and at St Enoch which is a short walk from Glasgow Central. If you arrive on a train at Partick, and want to go to the city centre, you just stay on the train for another couple of stops rather than change to the Subway. Of course if you wanted to go to the University, or to a Rangers football match, then you would change onto the Subway there.
Montreal technically has a circle! It's not really far enough but the blue forms a circle with the orange line. One underrated feature of it also is the twinning of orange and green. I hope eventually Ottawa gets the same treatment and gets a parallel hurdman-lincoln fields rapid transit, maybe down Carling and through Lansdowne.
One of the best circle lines is in Berlin. Built during the Kaiser Wilhelm years it is elevated with 4 tracks . The real estate space below is used for commercial activities. Two tracks are used by the S-Bahn for local passenger traffic, the other two are for regional express trains.
0:30 It's a bit of upgraded version of Kiss and it's called Stadler Eurasia. They just tested 1 trainset for a couple of weeks. Main goal at the moment is to reduce headways from 4 minutes to 3 minutes. Extension of trains to 7 cars might be considered in future.
Vienna tried circles on the Ring. After replacing tram lines 1 and 2 which just went around the Ring in 2008 with through lines via the Ring, ridership went up. It was so significant, they had to use larger trams than originally planned for line 1. A circle line on the underground was also tried (U2/4), this one died more due to operational hurdles than because of low ridership. Regarding the belt, a ring line is not feasible because of the location of Meidling train station where the line wouldn't go through.
Yeah, my guess is that this has to do with its history and its layout. It was built before the metro lines, and to a large degree as a freight line - it basically connects where the freight yards of the major stations used to be, instead of the major stations. That makes it often a bit awkward to use for quickly changing between radial lines (but of course that still happens). But since Berlin is very polycentric, it works essentially like the Washington DC circle line that’s proposed in this video would: Much more focus on being a very useful point-to-point (or first or last leg) line in its own right for the places it visits than being designed around increasing connectivity.
I also love circle lines. In my opinion every city should have a circle line. My favorites are the S29 in Berlin, the 5R in Rhein Neckar Area and the U3 in Hamburg.
The biggest adventage of a loop line: It has no terminal stop The biggest disadventage of a loop-line: It has no terminal stop The adventage: The loop-line has a about consant ridership everywhere the diametric lines are only highly crouded in the centre, while very little passanger use it until the terminal stop. The disadventage: There is no point in opperation, where vehicles can kill delays, get cleaned or even exchanged if needed without a lot of pasangers havig to change vehicle unplaned
I remember a meeting with another transit enthusiast and thinking about a outer circle line for Munich, crossing all the mejor "sub-urban" cities around the center... But because of the landscape (mountains and lakes) it would be quite expensive...
Waiting for KL to build its loop line. Most likely it will see little ridership compare to other radial lines, due to the KL city core is tiny, yet its suburb sprawl like American cities. The line is reported to be outer ring without serving the city itself.
Fun fact: the Seoul Subway line 2 was designed by the mayor in about 20 minutes by just drawing a line on a map with a pencil and ruler. Also, the two branches going off (the Seongsu branch line and the Sinjeong branch line) are not part of the main line. The main line trains do not enter that part unless going to the depot and just remain in the loop until they need to go to two of the many depots on the line. The branches have dedicated service that have termini at the end of the branch and at the station the branch begins at!
Yep haha, I still had to poke fun though! I love Line 2, especially the elevated bits :) just like the Yamanote Line!
@@RMTransit Yeah, the elevated bits are quite good, especially when they cross the Han river at two points!
Oh, you're talking about Moscow, so let me tell you -- loop lines AND roads are big here! We love that stuff!
Moscow not only (almost) have three loop metro lines (rings, as we call it), but there are also a number of loop car roads: Boulevard Ring, Garden Ring, The Third Ring Road, and Moscow Ring Road.
Each of them is very important for the city, has a big history and big traffic of cars on every single day.
There is representation of those roads in popular culture, music, jokes, memes etc. When The Third Ring Road was in active development, it was a big news topic for Russian media, and the then mayor of Moscow, Yuri Luzhkov, was often called "The Lord of the Rings" in press.
But ring roads aren't limited to just inside of Moscow; after 20 years of planning and building, Central Ring Road has been finally opened this year.
And last but not least, Saint Petersburg Ring Road is also a very important object of Russian infrastructure.
A semicircle rail line around Toronto actually sounds very useful. And a semicircle also avoids one of the issues full circles have. They have no terminus, which makes dealing with delays very tricky. That's the reason why the London Circle line is actually a spiral today, but a semicircle would work as well in cases such as Toronto or Chicago.
London's Overground network also doesn't operate services around the whole loop for similar reasons. South London Line and West London Line trains meet and terminate at Clapham Junction, a superhub interchange with long and short-distance heavy rail commuter services. Also sharing the northern part of the circle (the North London Line) is another end-to-end route that flies off to Richmond in the west and to Stratford in the East, both also big heavy rail interchanges.
Also Paris instead of the single loop line has it's loop split into semicircular lines 2 and 6
Chicago needs one so badly!
A semicircle line in NYC serving the Bronx-Queens-Brooklyn would be a massive hit. The proposed Triboro Line, while serving many useful areas and having superb connections to radial lines, fails in a few ways. First, it converts to a radial line in the Bronx which defeats the purpose of the ambitious project. Second, conflicts with other rail services including Metro North’s Penn Access will limit its usefulness as a transit service. Definitely should just build an above ground REM emulation instead.
Perhaps a second semicircle loop could focus first on Eastern Queens, reimagining the JFK AirTrain to connect JFK, Jamaica, Queens Medical Center, Queens College, Downtown Flushing, College Point and perhaps eventually an extension to the Bronx.
You're right 100%, that said I don't think I'd build a perfectly semicircular line in Toronto ;)
Can't find the video about Moscow.
Loop lines are great but the interchange stations must be designed well and must not have huge distances to walk from one line to other.
An example of badly done loop line(though it doesn't make a complete loop) is Delhi Metro's Pink line.
The interchange platforms of intersecting lines are far apart and one has to walk 300m at best to 1.5km at worst just to change the train at supposedly single station. This adds to travel time and commute fatigue and reduced ridership.
Yep! I talked about in my recent video about long transfers!
Laughing at you, Shanghai Line 4
Chicago would seriously benefit from a large circle line outside of the loop. Relying on the downtown loop to make transfers just isn't very practical because a lot of people end up riding all the way downtown just to transfer and go back out of downtown on a different train
Absolutely, the benefits are huge for such radial networks!
This is the problem with just about all systems in the US. They are all radial and none of them let you transfer anywhere but downtown.
This means unless you need to visit something on your radial you may have a pretty difficult time or need to switch to a much slower and less frequent form of transit.
For example, the Chicago suburbs have some coverage in the form of Metra and the Pace buses. But the buses now put you in traffic and have interesting scheduling as well as routes. It doesn't really end up serving the larger loop's purpose.
@@coreyhipps7483 the main problem is it would be extremely expensive to build a circle line in Chicago, and it would probably require eminent domain
@@carstarsarstenstesenn How much eminent domain will need to be invoked will very much depend on the route chosen and where/when it is above ground versus underground.
But this is kind of a problem with large infrastructure everywhere and anywhere around the world when it is being added after people are there.
Should we not build any of it even if it means a greener, healthier, more equitable city?
@@coreyhipps7483 I would personally be okay with it happening, but it probably never will
Here's the nice thing about the JR East Yamanote Line: _it makes navigating around Tokyo actually easier_ . Reason: the stations of the Yamanote Line can act as navigation points for reference, something really important given the messy jumble of streets in central Tokyo itself.
The Yamanote line connects most of the major urban centers of Tokyo. Heck you could have a fine Tokyo trip just by riding the Yamanote and getting off at anywhere that looked interesting or whose name you recognized. Shibuya, Shinjuku, Harajuku, Ikebukuro, Akihabara, etc.
Basically circular lines maximize the number of newly created trips that weren't previously possible on transit exclusively. When one circle line is built, not only does it serve those who live nearby it but also serves the people who live nearby the many lines to which it connects, in the case that they have somewhere to go near on another line that was previously disconnected / not quite as easy to transfer to from their own stop
I would have loved a loop line in Chicago, "The Loop" is not really a hugely utilitarian loop line as most of it is easily walk-able, it's more of a giant transfer hub.
Boston, MA could certainly use one.
Yeah, I would love to see one built in Chicago, ideally to more modern standards of course!
Chicago is the PERFECT city to have a huge outward semi circle. Two actually. Outer Circle, mid circle and of course “The Loop” would make it the envy of many cities.
@@lookatthisguyhere7712 Pretty much, especially with how Metra and the CTA lines branch out of the city. Those additional loops could really serve a lot of people and make for some fantastic transit.
Boston could use two, just like Moscow. The outer one could parallel rt 128 for the most part
@@counterfit5 the inner semicircle could run from Andrew Square South Boston to Mass Ave and Cass to Ruggles to Museum of Fine Arts to the BU Bridge to Central Square Cambridge to Union Square Somerville to Sullivan Square Charlestown
NYC really needs to get on its triboro Rx line. As someone who traveled frequently from Brooklyn to Queens, the two most populated boroughs, it would be so useful.
Chicago’s once proposed (hopefully, one day it will be built) Mid-City transitway is not a circle, but would have accomplished the same task of moving people between nearly all of the cities various rail transit lines, providing an outer arc to the hub-and-spoke network. Because of this, ridership in when it was studied in the early 2000s was to be 94,000 riders per day, which would make it the third-highest CTA line by ridership.
I want to see them build it, but using faster and automated rolling stock. Model it after the REM.
and now I got to the point in the video where you recommend using REM style rolling sock for a turnkey system for such a line.
Right on. Parallel thinking
Also, the never-built Metra STAR Line would have provided such a line for suburban Chicago, connecting suburbs and commuter lines. Unlike Melbourne’s system, it would not have been a subway. It would have run on an existing rail corridor for most its route, with the rest running in a highway medisn
Also, there was talk of building a CTA “ Circle Line” super loop, which would connect all of the downtown CTA lines in an outer loop, but would be much closer to the Downtown, so not as useful to the outer reaches of the city as the Mid City Transitway would be. Also, would probably be expensive due to land acquisition and likely subway sections. The Mid City Transitway, while significantly longer, would have no subway sections, perhaps similar or lower land acquisition costs, and would serve areas of the city currently without rapid transit at stations between its interchanges (while the Circle Line proposal would not really have many intermediate stations between interchanges).
I prefer the Mid City Transitway over the Circle Line.
The Mid-City Transitway would be transformational. I wish our local politicians would really push for it to happen.
@@AlecSchwengler it is one of the two BEST transit projects that aren’t in the works. The other is restructuring the Metra Elecrtic District.
Metra Electric District’s inner tracks should serve most existing platforms (except the least-used, which can be closed) on the main branch through 111th Street and on the South Shore Branch with rapid-transit style headways (probably requiring new single-level equipment optimized for frequent headways, though) while its outer tracks can remain in use by suburban commuter service and the South Shore Line. (The Blue Island Branch, unfortunately, probably needs to either shut down to revenue service, or be reconstituted as a separate service providing a timed transfer ferry service between the Rock Island District and the Electric District suburban commuter trains. A new station could be built near the Kensington Yards to be the location of timed transfers to the commuter MED trains)
The Metra Electric District restructuring would finally provide the south lakefront with better transit, comparable to the North lakefront’s CTA transit
Chicago had a plan for a much needed circle line going around downtown and connecting with almost all of the lines, using a lot of existing tracks. It did also go through downtown because, like Toronto, the city's downtown is along the lake. It got a lot of support but was shelved due to the expense of tunneling through the North Side section and Near West section of the circle.
Los Angeles could really use a circle line, perhaps two. A line from Pasadena through Glendale and Burbank to Van Nuys, to LAX, across South Central LA, to Downey and up through Montebello and Alhambra back to Pasadena, as an example, would meet some of LA's large number of peripheral commutes. A loop line from LAX, across South Central LA to Downey (shared w the other Circle line), down to Long Beach, to Torrance, and back to LAX could also have a similar impact.
Cincinnati has a really large abandoned subway project (partially built, abandoned due to post-WWI inflation) that partially used an old canal, and it would have been a 17-mile loop line connecting the neighborhoods of Downtown, Northside, Norwood, Hyde Park, and others. The right-of-way was later used for sections of I-75, I-71, and the Norwood Lateral, which allows an easy glance on Google Maps to see the route. As a Cincinnati native, I always thought it would have been so cool to be one of the few American cities with a loop line!
Chicago needs a circle, or a C line around the city and suburbs to connect the various CTA and Metra line spokes. Maybe a smaller CTA C line and also a much larger Metra C (or circle) line.
Chicago's loop is in the city center. I think they need at least another loop. It could roughly follow i294 or any nearby existing tracks and intersect with almost every suburban line. Sure, it might not be a circle, but I think it is needed regardless.
Look up the Lime Line. It was a proposal a few years back that would start at the northern branch of the blue line, travel south along Cicero to midway, and then curve East to meet up with the red line. It would use almost all existing rail lines.
In New York, there have been proposals for loop or semi-loop services. In 1926, the North Jersey Transit Commission proposed a loop service between Jersey City, Battery Park, Midtown Manhattan, Union City, and back. This was completely separate from the PATH system (the H&M), and would have also funneled today's Montclair, Pascack Valley, Ridgewood, and Paterson lines into the loop.
The RPA (Regional Plan Association) has also long proposed the Triboro RX line that would utilize the freight Bay Ridge line from Bay Ridge to Jackson Heights and the Bronx. It's more like 45% of a circle but it would completely avoid Manhattan, and it would be easier for residents to get to places like Middle Village, East New York, or Brooklyn Collge without backtracking.
Moscow's circle line (first one, underground) is also quite popular because it connecting all busiest railway terminals, excluding only rizhskiy and savyolovsky (they however only have suburban service nowadays). Getting, for example, from South of Russia to North by train with interchange in Moscow requies to make only one metro ride on circle line without making any interchanges.
The big circle line that you have mentioned is have also quite interesting story: it is a some sort of mix of old Soviet project (even bigger circle, that were parallel to MCC in some places) and new modern project (four lines from one neighborhood to another without getting to the city center)
I wonder if Calgary and Edmonton might actually be the first Canadian cities to do circle lines, since they’re pretty, well, circular. Either them or Montreal, since Toronto don’t really fit a circle well.
Toronto could have a full circular line. You’ll have the semi circle mentioned in the video, plus a harbour front stretch to connect the two ends of the semicircle. This can help serve the waterfront of tornto
Would the Calgary circle be near the free part of the downtown core?
Edmonton did originally have a circulator plan when it first proposed its low-floor LRT system. The whole low-floor network (3 lines) was to be interlined;
Valley Line: Millwoods to Lewis Farms via downtown
Energy Line: Sherwood Park to Lewis Farms via the University of Alberta
Festival Line: Sherwood Park to Millwoods via downtown and the University
That plan is no longer part of the overall city plan going forward. It would have required either using the High Level Bridge (which subsequently was found to have major structural issues that would require a complete rebuild) or building another LRT bridge beside the existing high-floor Menzies LRT bridge.
I've long thought about it, but the prices could make things difficult. That said Edmonton could probably affordably build one along its ring road connecting to future extensions beyond it!
@@RMTransit The Henday is located in a wide ROW called a TUC (transportation and utility corridor) owned by the province. There might be room for a rail line there, but it would be extremely expensive and challenging to work around not just the freeway and its interchanges, but all the utilities located there as well.
That said, it could be a very impressive part of a regional rail network for the greater Edmonton area. Dream big or go home!
Loop lines help reduce congestion at central hubs. Whenever you want to go from one peripheral point to the other (and you are not going straight through the middle) a circle line can be very helpful, especially if it is well connected to the radial lines and changing only takes a minute or two.
I find it fascinating how Paris’s original circle line, the Petite Ceinture, essentially failed as a public transport thing after the Metro was introduced. But I think the things in this video do explain it, especially the part about something the line needing something to connect to. The Petite Ceinture didn’t have that, because it essentially connected the freight yards of the major stations instead of their travelers, and it was (in its day) too far outside to be useful as an interconnect supplementing the Metro network.
How great would it be to reinstate it !! I know that it is impossible given the current state of its tracks (and I'm guessing that La Recyclerie wouldn't be too happy about it), but the tram service just does not feel appropriate anymore...
That Boston needs one has been known for at least 100 years. Even a broken loop shaped like a C would be great.
Talking about turning existing Infrastructure into a ring Line, there are plans to create a regional train line in berlin using the sencond, outer ring that are mostly used by freight trains at the moment.
I think basically all parts of the outer circle do have passenger service (RE and RB trains), but there isn’t one single circle line, and most of those services are very low frequency. Definitely a good idea to increase this, though, mostly to help develop the towns along the line.
Makes sense. Many subway lines go from suburb to city center, but not enough go from suburb to suburb. These circle lines are a great way to get around the city!
Hey Reece, you should check out what Lisbon, Portugal is doing about a metro circle line.
We are going to merge two radial lines to create a circular one, but in doing so, one of those radial lines (yellow) gets transformed into a spur line and loses its usefulness in having a direct connection from one of the main suburbs to downtown, the other line (green) fully becomes part of the loop line.
This line expansion/conversion won't connect to any new interfaces, so the circle line will only have the same interfaces that the current two lines have. Only 8 out of a total of 22 stations will have direct connections to other metro lines or above ground trains. So, if as you said, circle lines are great because they connect to many other lines and systems (I agree with this BTW), is what Lisbon is doing an example on how NOT to build a circle line?
The only advantage from this project is that one of the central train stations (Cais do Sodré) gets Metro service going two different ways instead of just being a terminal station, easily dispersing a bigger crowd of commuters. But this is counteracted by the fact that now, the new spur line (yellow) has to dump all its commuters on an already overcapacity Metro station (Campo grande).
I would love to hear opinion on this.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
we had a circle line bus service once, it was quite popular, I once rode it all the way around and it took 3 hours to go around it from my starting point, they have another circle line bus service that does the inner city that is much smaller but is still quite popular, it was free the last time I checked, to encourage people to just hop on and off it.
They have a tram service here that is free inside the city and there is a stretch that is always packed, it goes from a parking complex that has $5 per day parking and takes you into the city, for free, encouraging people to use public transit and keep traffic out of the city, it works well.
I just use circle lines mostly to explore and if I'm bored, spend a little coin, sure I'm not going to be spending $300 at a small cafe, but I'm sure they will be happy with my small coffee and cake purchase.
About seoul's line 2, the tips that you complained about are branch lines, which were built for connecting train depots(so its necessary). They are operated seperately from the main line and does not hinder the main line's traffic(most of the time)
Yep! Still had to make a jest :)
Thank you for a very informative video. The more I see and read about (1) the Moscow 'Central Circle', (2) the plans for the Grand Paris Express automatic metro and (3) the success of the London OVERground, the more I think that London does not need any more lines in the city centre. The OVERground circles London about five miles from its centre. What London now needs is an automated Outer Circle metro circling the city at about ten miles from the centre.
There's a project to join lines C, E and H of the Buenos Aires subte (subway) in order to create a circular line around the city centre. It would connect all of the main train stations (Constitución, Retiro and Once) and transport hubs. The good thing about it is that it wouldn't be hugely costly (Argentina's not great as far as financing goes) as most of the tunnels have already been dug up because they're currently in use by those three lines.
All in all, excellent video as always, circle lines are almost always a great choice!
Nice work Reece! Circumferential and Polycentric are key words I like to hear.
"circle lines need connectivity"
Glasgow subway: *HMMMM*
Great point
Well...SquareSpace as sponsor when the video talks about circle.
I speak a bit of Russian (I'm an aussie) so I've been watching a few videos of the new Moscow outer loop and diameter lines opening. Man they're putting their money where their mouths are. Really amazing stations. Moscow does metro rail so damn well. (Although I don't like how they give different names to stations that are connected, it's like if King's Cross/SP gave a different station name to all the underground stations connect to it, it's so confusing)
It's not that confusing because in Russian metros every line has its own stations and every train on a line only goes in that one direction of the line. There are no crossings of lines within one station and also no branch offs. If two stations are in one place or part of a big transit hub, they are mostly built over or next to each other. So you can transit from one line to another but there are no different lines on one platform. It's actually quite easy. You don't have to pay attention to whether it's the right train or not because if you're in the right station, it's the right train. In Moscow the interval between trains is like 90 seconds and a countdown clock in every station shows when the next train arrives.
You don't talk enough about Madrid's metro. It has 2 circular lines: the 6 (city centre) and 12 (city south)
How about Lisbon metro for the portuguese folk in here? It's also gonna have a future circle line too :3 (It's our green line that's gonna become circular btw)
I have an Explained planned for it next year!
Madrid is in dire need of new trains. They're so old and dated.
@@carlosandleon It depends on thebline, there are trains quite new, but I still got your point of view
Madrid Metro has two circle lines and is currently building a semi-circle line
What semi-circle line is being built??
@@jacool2565 the eleventh Line is under expansion
@@Batcow-1138 Ahh, yeah. I knew that. I just hadn't thought of it as a semi-circle. Just as a very much needed way of connecting the southwest with the northeast.
it is interesting that many North American cities have highway loops, but rail loops seem to bit of a rare concept here
Is it that interesting? It’s predictable and depressing to me
For sure, hopefully we can change that!
Rail transit _in general_ seems to be a bit of a rare concept in the US South.
You mentioned DC: the purple line!
IMHO, one of the best loop lines is Montpellier tram line 4. The first 2 lines were built with really awkward routes in the center *on purpose* and then were straightened out as more lines were built, and they got a circle line "for free". It's a planning masterpiece.
Shout out to the Glasgow Subway - it's literally just one circular line with 12 stops. Only underground system in Scotland, and we love it.
It also has the worst rolling stock I've ever seen on an underground system, it's even smaller and more tube-like than the older deep line London tube trains
San Diego has the Orange line trolley from downtown through La Mesa to El Cajon as well as the Green line from downtown through Mission Valley to La Mesa, El Cajon and Santee.
The two lines can be used as a circle through the shared stations downtown and in La Mesa, and the trains are timed for transfers as much as possible.
Not quite a circle, but not too far off.
Another great demystified video, keep them up! Here in Melbourne we've proposed probably the worst implementation of a circle line, the suburban rail loop, which is proposed to be mostly underground, it would take decades to dig before they can even lay the tracks
I'm still a fan of reopening the Outer and inner circle lines as one circle, just need a connection between Russel and Westgarth, also wouldn't hurt to expand it to Flemington Racecourse just have to build a connection between Flemmington and Newmarket (also showgrounds really needs to become a fulltime station)
It's incredible how the government changed their stance from skyrail to tunnel boring because they incentivised the building of 4 boring machines. Funny how the one thing murdoch media doesn't rip into Dan Andrews for is a $50Bn project.
Thanks for watching!
DC really needs not only 1 circle line but 2. An outer circle line that paralleled the beltway would be fantastic. Then an inner circle line that connected all the downtown lines and formed a loop around the mall including Georgetown would be fantastic.
Purple line
They’ve been talking about the beltway line since the 80s if not earlier.
Superb video ,you didn’t mention the Glasgow subway that’s a circle tube type system and has had a lot of work making modern and really nice also the Mersey rail loop in Liverpool that’s a metro type service too ,cheers 😊👍🏻
He probably didn't mention it because the big advantage of circular lines is connectivity. Glasgow doesn't connect to any train lines.
@@robertdaly9162 it connects to 2 national rail stations: Partick and Glasgow Queen Street (from Buchanan street via a tunnel). St Enoch station is also very close to Glasgow Central station
Great video! Copenhagen recently also opened a circle line connecting M1, M2 and M4 metro lines while also connecting to a large amount of S-train stations
A country like France could do with some more circle-ish or circumferential high speed lines that don't pass through Paris. It would be much more convenient to connect regional cities without having to change in Paris.
Hahahah your funny! Making a transport system that isn’t centralized? In France? Hahahaha
When the Bordeaux-Toulouse, Toulouse -Narbonne,Interconnexion Sud, and Montpellier -Perpignan lines will be completed (if it ever happens), the network will form a complete loop around France
A semicircular line in NYC from the Bronx to Brooklyn via Queens is desperately needed. The Triboro RX is desperately needed.
I just saw a video of proposal of Interborough Express Line making a semicircle around Brooklyn and Queens.
My local city of Sacramento could benefit from circular lines really nicely. Our Gold Line got split from a U-shaped line into two axial lines, but if we got a Folsom-Roseville connection, and Watt-I80 extended to Roseville (note: Roseville is a suburban car-loving hellscape but is its own local center of sorts), then the outlying suburbs would have their connections strengthened. We could also really benefit from a loop that connects downtown/midtown to the expo center and Arden, which are a sort of second midtown, and would provide a vauluable start to infill services in a well-populated area that is lacking in rail services.
In Melbourne there is a outer circle line running from Cheltenham to Clayton to Glen Waverley to Box hill and it’s going to take forever to type the rest.
Great video - this got me thinking, Vancouver doesn't have a circle line, but does the skytrain do something similar? The "racket" shape created by the Expo and Millenium line connects suburban nodes together, and the Broadway subway is somewhat of a radial line as it'll be run parallel to the downtown core
Rhys will be like: “Did somebody mention the Vancouver sky train?!? Of course I’ll make a video”
For reference; I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that!
Vancouver does have a very unique shape so to some extent you have a point. A circle wouldn't necessarily make as much sense
Montreal really needs to loop the orange line! It’s a shame that it’s not been done yet, especially with all the planned developments like Mount Royal mall and the triangle area
I think connecting up to Bois Franc is a total no brainer!
@@RMTransit There has been plans in the works since at least 2009 to loop the orange line in Montreal / Laval. People were talking about it while I was in still in college. Unfortunately, hasn't happened yet. It would certainly make a lot of sense, as it's connection through most of the densest places in the region.
This is why I'm not impressed by the REM. It should be a loop instead of ending in terminals in the West Island and south shore. But that just shows who it's primarily designed for: the condo owners in the developments built by the real estate arm of the caisse at the end of those lines.
i really want a circle line for philly's regional rail. there are unused rights of way from chester to west chester and there used to be a trolley that went between west chester and frazer (which is on the thorndale line) if you continue the loop to the other reginal rail lines i think it would be a great system
Some fun trivia: that spur off the Broad Street subway was planned to be a full circle through the central city. Moral of the story: beware of being part of the dreaded "phase three" of any master plan
Taipei’s Circular Line is quite a project, in fact New Taipei City aims to construct a network of “3 rings 6 lines” to better connect Taipei, New Taipei City and Taoyuan, although 2 rings out of 3 are made up of several separate lines, but they still looks like rings.
I think Perth could really benefit from a circle line as it's highly radial. They are actually in the process of constructing the first transfer lines between two exisiting lines that doesn't go through the CBD (downtown) that could potentially turn into a circle line or at least a semi circle.
A circle line and an inner city light rail network would be the next two projects I hope get funded after Metronet. Brisbane needs a circle line desperately as well!
@@KhanPiesseONE it would be good if the proposed "trackless trams" in Scarborough, I think it is, we're upgraded to proper light rail, starting a network that could be expanded.
@@KhanPiesseONE yes Brisbane is a great candidate for a circle line, that would be awesome!
@@spartan117zm We need it so badly. Going from suburb to suburb in this city is painful.
iirc the Stadler KISS being used on the moscow central circle was because a double decker Lastochka is being developed, so they tested how it would work on the MCC. I think just using longer trains would make more sense on the MCC because the platforms are already long and would fit a train thats longer than a regular lastochka. Also because double deckers have less door and boaring is harder
That's so interesting, how long are the platforms?
@@RMTransit above ground platforms are pretty long, enough to serve coupled Lastochkas I think. The problem however is with the only underground MCC station, Ploshchad Gagarina, which was actually built 15 years (!) before the MCC was launched! Back then passenger service on the Moscow railway circle was no more than a dream and I bet no one expected such a huge success of the MCC, probably this is a reason why this station was built shorter (about 180 meters - just a bit longer than a standard Moscow Metro station). Alternatively they could add a couple extra cars to existing Lastochkas which should fit Ploshchad Gagarina platform, but this might not be a long-term solution due to increasing ridership and ongoing new development around MCC stations.
The Osaka loop line does this cool thing. Local services operate normally as a loop, but rapid trains go around once (skipping some stations on the way) then slingshots eastward or southward. This means if you live on those lines, if you want to go somewhere in the city center, you don't have to switch trains at all (Assuming where you want to go is near a loop line station, which is very likely)
Glasgow has been keeping it simple with its subway for over a 100 year with a circle
Something I feel about Singapore's (eventually to be completed) circle line is that its section along the southern coast feels more like a radial line than a circumferential one. Since the city center is on the southern coast, the sections south of the east west line go straight into the central area, and actually has some stations along this stretch in high-density residential areas, which can use the line as a radial line. A city like Toronto would also be in such a situation where you can't build a truly circumferential line around the city center, because one side is just water.
what about the Glasgow Subway? one line and it's a loop. Can't say it's really busy though.
Paris already has a "circle line", it's just split in two. But except for two stations on line 2 (that almost nobody uses anyway), line 2 and 6 make a circle inside Paris, both meeting each other at their final stops (except one for line 2). They're also the two lines with the most above-ground tracks (to save on costs if I remember correctly). Which means that we know circles lines are good since... well, long.
There has been demand for a circular line for Paris' suburbs for at least 50 years. The oldest archive I could find states that people are forced to drive because there's nothing to move people from suburb to suburb, and it's from 1978.
This is true. In the Philippines, the most used lines is the MRT 3 (a half circle line) and LRT line 1 (a straight line that connects to the north station of line 3 creating a loop)
You're doing a great job. Thanks mate.
Mexico City is building a BRT loop line (Metrobús linea 0 [zero because it’s a loop, but it’s the eighth line]).
It’s going to be very cheap because they are using an existing Inner city car loop.
Singapore's Circle Line is a bit weird. The main termini are Dhoby Ghaut (on the "branch") to HarbourFront. The branch is the one from Promenade to Marina Bay. By 2026, they'll close the circle, but how they will operate the MRT line will be in question.
Portland got circle line streetcars recently, and they’re useful, but slow. I’d love a circle line MAX train that takes SE Holgate Blvd to connect between existing trackway. What we’ll be getting instead is a radial express bus service called TriMet FX a couple of major streets north which will connect those same trackways while also going downtown. I’ll use it, and TriMet says they’re building where demand for transit is highest, but I still hope they improve Holgate or a more southern street like Tacoma/Johnson Creek along the east side with a rail circle line in the future.
Honestly, I'd love to see your take on my home town, Karlsruhe's, transit system, especially now that the big part of the Kombilösung has been completed.
Karlsruhe represent.
Loop Lines are useful in the game MiniMetro for different reasons. The game's stations (and where passengers want to go) are represented by shapes (multiple Circle, Square and Triangle stations and later on various other unique shapes) so you want to alternate between the three main shapes as often as possible, yet every time a line ends and the train has to double back, you are putting like-stations close to one another.
The second possible reason is that trains have to cover half the ground on a closed loop line to complete the journey visiting the first station again. The central stations on a straight line get similar visiting but the further out ones have upto twice the wait to be visited again.
In my city Santo Domingo , it is tecnically impossible to make a circle line do to the unorganized layout and urbanism , our metro system is a similar layout of the Mexico City.
I'd be super curious to hear/watch your thoughts on Vancouver's SkyTrain with regards to loops. For context, about five years ago, Vancouver had a "loop line" with its Millennium Line. But with the Evergreen expansion, they decided to remove the loop and create two longer routes (the Evergreen Line was originally conceived as a separate line serving the Eastern Suburbs). Today, while the overall system still maintains the loop look, it's two lines that "intersect" at three stops (not including the third Canadian Line which goes north-south instead of east-west).
It's a bus line, but the Super loop 201/202 was the busiest bus in San Diego, even before they opened the Mid Coast trolley that it now feeds into.
Everyone likes loops!
Before you mentioned it at 7:30, I was literally thinking while watching the video that the GTA should have a semi-circle line around the 905 belt. I envision the line starting in Mississauga, then going through Brampton, Vaughan and Markham, before terminating in Pickering. This would surely provide much needed rapid transit service between the suburbs of the 905.
San Jose has a large circular road which traverses most of the city and consists of (from north to east to south to west): montague expressway, capitol avenue, capitol expressway, hillsdale ave, camden ave, and then the san tomas expressway. Parts of san jose's VTA already occupy most of capitol avenue, and there is a planned extension down capitol expressway to the eastridge mall. A circular transit line on these existing ROW would be ideal, and would supplement the existing north-south line that already exists going through the middle of san jose.
Auckland New Zealand is also getting a loop from the city rail link. This loop also has lines running into it
Glasgow Subway video when?
Also, #1 contender for RMTransit's 2021 Transit Award for "Tiniest Cutest Wee Trains Ever"!?
Yeah, I also vote for GS, 'coz Scots had begun with the Circular Line at the very begging :)))
I need to make that a category haha
In the case of Berlins loop line (Ringbahn) it serves another purpose that's quite popular among high school kids, namely a drinking game that's called "Ringbahn-Saufen", where two teams use the trains in opposite directions, have to get off at every stop to drink a pint at the nearest bar, get back on the train and repeat until you've done the circle. The team that comes in first wins.
I think a video on Railways in Switzerland would be interesting. Or perhaps the Zurich tram/S-Bahn network? The Swiss love trains
It definitely would
The London Overground is indeed great. I just wish the trains were a bit faster and the frequencies were higher. Every 20 minutes is not quite enough to feel like it's part of the proper Underground network.
What you really need are tangential lines. You can still connect them to a full circle or operate them individually, which allows for more flexibility (for example, if some sections need way more capacity than others) and also to extend the lines on both ends to connect more destinations without needing to "bend the circle".
There are some city loop lines in Australia, but in a Underground version.
In Sydney the Underground Heavy Railway line was the City Circle, which started build in the 1920's and was finally completed in 1956.
Melbourne's Broad Gauge Metro system also had a underground railway loop in Melbourne's CBD
Heavy Rail underground can be the best solution answer to deliver not only just commuter trains but as well as passing freight
it'd be nice to have in NYC, or at least a light rail to connect outer-borough stations above ground and underground in a circle like shape
Here in Pittsburgh, the geography would make a loop very difficult, although the city has so many great neighborhoods outside of downtown, mostly along the rivers, rather than being sort of evenly spread out like a city on a plain or basin would be.
Sofia, Bulgaria is too small for a circle metro line, but there is a circle tram line in design that is direly needed.
Great video Reece!
On a side note, I love the progress indicator you placed over the bottom in the sponsor slot.
Moscow's central circle first and foremost reason for existence was to alleviate overloaded transit stations and central parts of radial lines. So it's success depends on this - if there is no overload on central part of your transit system chance is that it is better to spend your resources on more radial lines. In St. Petersburg, Russia there are also plans for circle metro line and semi-circle railway line. But circle metro line always gets postponed in favor of extensions of existing radial lines or building new ones, while rail semi-circle seems to be in favor right now
St Petersburg is notoriously slow at building new stations in general, so this is unsurprising. Also I really wish the city would focus on ferries since it seems perfectly suited for them
@Zaydan Naufal to Питер (Peater as in tea) when speaking informally or to S-Pb in writing
@@misha.michael ferries would be problematic in winter
Hamburg also has a circle line, the U 3. But with a London style branch, sadly :(
The Glasgow Subway is a circle line, but it is mostly used to link the city centre to Hillhead where Glasgow University is located, and to a lesser extent, to link the city centre to Ibrox stadium on match days.
I part of the reason is that the only links to the rail network are at Partick, at Buchannan Street which is a short walk from Queen Street, and at St Enoch which is a short walk from Glasgow Central. If you arrive on a train at Partick, and want to go to the city centre, you just stay on the train for another couple of stops rather than change to the Subway. Of course if you wanted to go to the University, or to a Rangers football match, then you would change onto the Subway there.
Montreal technically has a circle! It's not really far enough but the blue forms a circle with the orange line.
One underrated feature of it also is the twinning of orange and green. I hope eventually Ottawa gets the same treatment and gets a parallel hurdman-lincoln fields rapid transit, maybe down Carling and through Lansdowne.
One of the best circle lines is in Berlin. Built during the Kaiser Wilhelm years it is elevated with 4 tracks . The real estate space below is used for commercial activities. Two tracks are used by the S-Bahn for local passenger traffic, the other two are for regional express trains.
Hi Reece, the Melbourne SRL is going to be a tunnel, do you think it would be better done like the Vancouver Skytrain - i.e. above ground?
0:30 It's a bit of upgraded version of Kiss and it's called Stadler Eurasia. They just tested 1 trainset for a couple of weeks. Main goal at the moment is to reduce headways from 4 minutes to 3 minutes. Extension of trains to 7 cars might be considered in future.
In Vienna, our 2 circumferential main streets are literally called the Ring and the Belt jet we do not have a single circumferential transit line
Vienna tried circles on the Ring. After replacing tram lines 1 and 2 which just went around the Ring in 2008 with through lines via the Ring, ridership went up. It was so significant, they had to use larger trams than originally planned for line 1. A circle line on the underground was also tried (U2/4), this one died more due to operational hurdles than because of low ridership.
Regarding the belt, a ring line is not feasible because of the location of Meidling train station where the line wouldn't go through.
You might be interested to know that the same "loop effect" works on roadways: the most congested roads tend to be beltways.
The Berlin Ringbahn seems to be different, many people use it to cover large distances instead of using it as a way to move between radial lines.
Yeah, my guess is that this has to do with its history and its layout. It was built before the metro lines, and to a large degree as a freight line - it basically connects where the freight yards of the major stations used to be, instead of the major stations. That makes it often a bit awkward to use for quickly changing between radial lines (but of course that still happens). But since Berlin is very polycentric, it works essentially like the Washington DC circle line that’s proposed in this video would: Much more focus on being a very useful point-to-point (or first or last leg) line in its own right for the places it visits than being designed around increasing connectivity.
@@dda40x I think its mostly the polycentric thing, you often have a reason to travel directly between the districts on the ring line
The Moscow circle line also connects most of Moscow main railway terminals that makes it even more popular
I also love circle lines. In my opinion every city should have a circle line. My favorites are the S29 in Berlin, the 5R in Rhein Neckar Area and the U3 in Hamburg.
Have been an advocate for circle lines since input into the EW Needs Assessment study of 2008 in Melbourne.
dartford loop is fantastic when it works
The biggest adventage of a loop line: It has no terminal stop
The biggest disadventage of a loop-line: It has no terminal stop
The adventage: The loop-line has a about consant ridership everywhere the diametric lines are only highly crouded in the centre, while very little passanger use it until the terminal stop.
The disadventage: There is no point in opperation, where vehicles can kill delays, get cleaned or even exchanged if needed without a lot of pasangers havig to change vehicle unplaned
Thank you for the video! And hello from Moscow!
Shout-out to the OG circle line: the Glasgow Subway.
NY doesn't have any of those 😞
:(
I remember a meeting with another transit enthusiast and thinking about a outer circle line for Munich, crossing all the mejor "sub-urban" cities around the center... But because of the landscape (mountains and lakes) it would be quite expensive...
Waiting for KL to build its loop line. Most likely it will see little ridership compare to other radial lines, due to the KL city core is tiny, yet its suburb sprawl like American cities. The line is reported to be outer ring without serving the city itself.