Tilting Trikes Part 1 - Velomobile and Motorcycle Trike Tilting Mechanism Design
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 พ.ค. 2024
- This video looks at the design considerations for the tilting mechanism for a three-wheeled velomobile, trike or motorcycle. It covers the geometry of various configurations and how to avoid pitfalls of excessive tyre scrub and unsuitable arrangements. I have used cardboard models to illustrate the topics covered. Hopefully, this video will give you the information you need to design your own tilting mechanisms to give a nice-handling machine.
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Your a champion to share all these principles, all in all your card cut out concept is the best, one actually gets it
Thanks, I'm pleased you liked it!
Thank you for sharing this information. I have been trying to make a working Velomobile design. It's very hard to find people willing to share their concepts.
Try to find a blueprint for the original tilting sidecar on 20s-30' s Harley- Davidson rigs. I can't recall any more if that was a Harley or tilt- car patent. But talk to your local librarian, that's what they do... Find obscure source's of data in places you and I will never think of. Good luck + I'll catch you later.
Really informative for a person who wants to build a tilting recumbent. You’ve given me a far greater understanding towards this endeavour👍
Pretty cool. When ever I’m designing new machines. I always do cardboard and push pins. Works a treat and makes for real easy adjustments. Can’t wait to see what you build.
Nicely done and the cut out graphic made it crystal clear. Cheers.
Thank you so much for this talk through of so many aspects that come to play in a suspension design like this. Much appreciated!
Thank you!
I found this video to very interesting as I'm considering building my own velomobile
Super interesting analysis, thank you for your work.
Please keep making videos sir. This was very educational for my own project.
This was very helpful. I did find success with slight separation with of the arms from the center point and using the t model but the t shape is just about 1/3rd the height of the space between the upper and lower arms. The points where the shocks connect to the t is the same as the inner pivot points of the arm. Then using the distance for the shock to measure out where it would attach to the lower arm. For body wise you may have to make a slight deviation in the body to allow room for the shocks which aerodynamically shouldn’t effect it to much. You can also prevent a lot of aerodynamic loss by using fine bristles on the slits which will allow it to essentially close the slit.
Very interesting. I was looking at how to make an IRS trick tilt and this gave me food for thought
Fantastic piece of analysis! I've done most of this thinking before but without the pretty cardboard aided design. I don't have an aversion to FWD, so the image you showed of the tilting delta trike was right up my street.
I am moving from cardboard to computer aided design for the next phase!
The velotilt project was for sale not too long ago. It has plugs and molds for the body and some design work
Been thinking of a motorcycle along these lines and having same issues finding a decent suspension setup without drawbacks whilst ensuring suspension and tilting work in harmony
Man this video is fantastic!! I'm working on something similar and this is a gold mine!
This is a beautiful video. The communication works perfectly.
really like your evaluation, trail and error. where the center joints come together , please consider sliders that cross before connecting to shocks? thanks
That's good illustration bro!
Hi, I'm doing a similar exercise so thanks for posting this. What I am looking into is different tilt on the wheels, less on the outside of the turn and more on the inside, making the imaginary lines through the wheel axles meet in the centre of the turn.
Thank you for the educational video. Much appreciated!
hafeexius Thanks, glad you found it interesting!
이제까지본 강연중에 최고입니다.이해하는데 많은도움이되었네요. 만들떼 참고할게요
감사합니다
nice information sir. thankyou so much. its can help me to finish my final project. please keep this video sir :)
Very interesting! Tilting seems to be the future of trike design!
It is, but even pros don't have the solution... maybe sk18 whatever with his wierd ass channel name and sick af asl.
Fourteen minutes very well spent, been considering this and the problems that arise for some time now, out of interest how big a problem is tyre scrub and if you mounted the lower arm where it met the tyre slightly higher and angled the wheej outwards, (positive camber), would that be of benefit,
A very helpful video for my tilting trike construction ;)
Great Explanation Technique...
Very interesting.... I will be back again for more inspiration on my project! Bravo!
Superb and systematic approach to arrive various solutions for tilting wheels
Great stuff!
Thank you mate!
Seus vídeos são ótimos, projetos completamente viáveis ,mesmo para quem não é um profissional na área, seria possível realizar com suas dicas .
This is a very interesting video with a range of possible designs. The only thing I would say is you are having the single wheel on the same plane as the other two. As the single wheel is at least three/ four feet behind or in front of the other two the amount of scrub or lift can be ignored due to this change in the plane!
For ages I been "planning" to make a EV trike 1+1 in tandem with motorcycle parts, but, since i didnt have the time space or money im seriulsy thinkin a electrically assisted trike bike to start with, this exercise was really very informative. thanks
Go for it!
tnx for the load of info , I would try to take the whole or at least most of the mechanism in front or rear of the body that should be possible with 2 foil shaped carbon arms . that would take the wheels completely to the front or rear of the vm . if you make the same on the other side you can suspend the drivers pod in between them with a lot of space inside . the hub-less wheel idea of nelson would complement it nicely :)
Few people today recall that the first Harley- Davidson side hacks we re of a tilting design. H- D didn't make them, that was a contract with a private co. During WW 11, the company made bus replacement parts. Afterwards that company was still in business, Nowadays they make the tilting platform buses in Los Angeles California.
beautiful explaination and amazing idea of testing different ideas. this is how i would do it.
I was actually thinking about a similar velomobile design, but for mine the body would be slightly higher and flatter on the bottom, and the fairing would be T shaped looking roulghly like cannards but capable of flexing. I was wanting to do a jet plane canopy like teardrop shaped glass dome on the top as well. I would love to work with you on the design and implementation.
You sir, are a genius
Very good job, Thank you this video, Good luck ...
Thank you MMC, very very interesting, you saved me a lot of work. One mechanism you didn't try was two pivot points in the center on the lower arms and one on the top, the same they use on the Quadro, do post another video if you try this geometry please. Thanks again for going to all this trouble.
Thanks! I think the Quadro design as you describe it would make the wheels angle outwards slightly relative to each other as the machine tilts or suspension compresses. The effect would be greater the further apart the bottom pivots are. I’m not sure what the advantage of this would be, but the Quadro seems to work pretty well!
MMS, I solved the above problem I discussed in my previous post (Quadro) simply by using your number 4b and turning it upside down, it would have the same result, I'm just wondering how Quadro solved this or didn't they ???? Correct me if I'm wrong but to have the correct geometry the top and bottom pivot points would have to have be aligned in the center such as in
figure 2a.
Do let us know how you solved the steering, for your project. I would imagine it would be direct steering as in a push bike but with scooters and motorbikes the preferred method seams to be a tie rod arrangement, I'm exploring some sort of direct method of steering for motorbikes to keep the whole thing as light as possible.
你讲的很细致，谢谢 你
Motosiklet Trike Devirme Mekanizması Tasarımı bilgilendirme için teşekkürler
good job bro,please keep create like these videos
Super design super technic 👌👍🌹
That was excellent, Bravo!!! I build gravity racing vehicles and I have always thought a tilting suspension would be amazing, thank you for sharing such a vast amount of time and work!
Excellent thank you for this.
Any chance you could share the onshape models?
Amazing!
That was excellent, Bravo!!! I
Thanks! I thought about it, but did not think to make simple models!)
What a great video with so much detailed information, Just a thought, would you use any caster angle with these setups for a tadpole trike configuration.
Mike Bull hi, thanks for your comment. The video just shows the tilting geometry, the steering geometry will require a castor angle and king pin angle to prevent bump steer. I’ve been working on these aspects of the design and am hoping to upload another video one these aspects in due course
@Metal Machine Shop This appears to be the most comprehensive coverage on the subject on this platform. Congrats for that. No doubt many hope that this project comes to fruition and viewers get more information helpful to constructing the proposed vehicle. It is very curious that little is now heard of the much praised "Velotilt" trike with two rear wheels, first heard of about 2012. It looked so promising, while it's apparent absence from the market place suggests that it is still overcoming problems. Any light you could shed on this matter would be much appreciated. I look forward keenly to follow ups on this project. I am surprised that the topic of a leaning velo is not far more popular.
Thanks for the comment! I'm not sure what happenend to the Velotilt, I haven't found any up-to-date news on the internet. Nice looking machine though. It uses a different sort of tilting mechanism that I didn't cover in my video.
@@MetalMachineShop Remain keen to know if this velomobile is being built and hope you will advise along the way. Thanks for the velomobile upload.
I'm still working on the design so I'm not sure whether I will ever build it. Once the design is finished maybe I will share it with the velomobile community to see whether it's good enough to build! I'll try to upload another video in due course.
You should look at tilting mechanisms for motorcycle cars. I'm not sure if it would work with independent suspension but something like the Flxi Flyer might simplify things. I think once you start to look at how much turning the wheels starts to change and complicate load and geometry you might forget about some of your concerns.
Muchas gracias por todas sus explicaciones. Me encanta este diseño, pero en suramérica son muy poco empleados y las rutas para bicicletas no son muy seguras.
Kral , çok güzel olmuş eline sağlık
thanks i am converting an e-bike to tilt trike this will help
in my tilting trike design i decided that i wanted to control the lean with my arms, ok ok i havent built it yet, however in my design both wheels are individually suspended and i have a rod that allows me to drop each wheel individually. this video did point out to me how im going to run into heaps of wheel scrub. bugger, but his is prototype #8 there is always #9. thanks for this video as its dificult to find any info on how to build a tilting teck into a trike. i recon when this is solved it has the potential to compete with cars. who wouldnt want vehicles to be a third the size and heaps more power eficent probably dreaming, but hey, dreams are free :-)
me gusto mucho la excelente explicación y los diferentes modelos y problemas que presentan, han sido de una gran ayuda para mi, quería sugerir en cuanto a la suspensión, porque no colocas un pequeño sistema de suspensión en cada rueda, igual que la que usas en la central y que cada rueda suspenda por individual, te voy a enviar un modelo de suspensión sencillo que usa una trike bike, buscare el link del vídeo y te lo comparto en otro msj
Excelente!!
Thanks good information to consider, Utility EV could greatly benefit from tilting technology, only problem is the outrigger wheels used often exceed the form factor of a motorbike.
A wide track may keep your trike from tipping on corners, but a fast enough turn could break the bead on your tires. You need tilting to keep the forces in line with your axle.
This is by far the most details built of the Tilting Trike ! I know im like 2 years late to this video but instant sub and love your build series
I'm not sure but it seems that body clearance should increase as the tilt angle increases for vertical state stabilization. But not much, probably it causes risk of overturn at speed. Thank you for shared analysis.
Best way to create prototypes in smale scale is Lego technik!!!!! Thx for the great video.
Ha! I actually did that. Ran out of bits though!
My experience is the same. 3D CAD takes the design to a next level.
From my purely digital work I learned that a powered or at least partially powered vehicle is necessary to achieve gains from the heavy tilting mechanism.
Thank you for all your efforts, I have been thinking of building an electric trike and have been stumped for a long time on this issue.
Excelente trabajo. Estoy definiendo como hacer el basculante de mi futuro triciclo invertido. Gracias !!!
Interesting video with a lot of thought in it. However, I suspect the problem is even more complex than it appears in this video. I think the problem also needs to be considered 3 dimensionally, and not just 2 dimensionally as presented here. Notice in particular the camber angles of the wheels relative to each other while in a lean as would be experienced in a turn. Each wheel is in a slightly different turn radius and should require a different camber than the other wheel. The inside wheel in a turn should have less camber than the outside wheel.
I think you are right. I'm working on a 3D CAD model at the moment which should help flush out some issues.
Does camber directly relate to local turning radius? Or are you recommending a camber angle/ turning radius relationship for wear characteristics or handling?
The minds and technology of Lithuanian engineering are rough diamonds.
Good job bossqua 👍👍👍👍👍
Very interesting, I’d love to see follow up vids on this project.
More planned...!
Excellent.
Hi, you would also consider to follow up our tilting trike ASCENDU, we have a youtube channel, th-cam.com/channels/u869xo02p4utwZpVxmCCaw.html
Very interesting. Have you thought about running the tilt mechanism on the rear and using FWD? This would ease packaging and obviate the need for a differential.
Definitely an option but I think tadpole configuration is easier to make with greater use of standard bike components.
Hello. Thank you for this informative video.
I wish to build an electric trike with single rear wheel drive. Just the sort of info I'm after.
This is uncannily like a project I shelved a decade or so ago. Even the sketches and model are pretty much identical. Great minds..!
Have you considered a delta layout with a Calleja type twin trailing swing arm setup. Calleja used a diff on his motorised test bed but with a narrow enough track you could possibly do without - or even drive a single rear wheel ( unless it would cause some unwanted yaw effects..?)
Anyway it was fun to watch you talk through the same work, the same way.. Thanks for sharing.
Ha! I don’t claim any of my work is original - interesting to hear that other people have come to similar conclusions! I think the tadpole configuration has advantages in terms of mechanical simplicity but the deltas probably look better.
very nice and cleaver! thanx!
Thanks MrLemaner!
VERY IMPRESSIVE
Thanks!
Hi. I enjoyed your video and approach! Tilting trikes have been on my mind for years. Would it help if the two vertical arms supporting each wheel were angled out at the bottom so they aim at the tyre contact patch? I've done that on a gravity racer and it really helped. Obviously the inboard suspension pivots would no longer be in line vertically if the top and bottom arms were to be of equal length. Kris
Hi, thanks for the comment. I agree that the steering pivots/kingpin should be angled as you describe in order to reduce/eliminate bump steer. I’m planning to upload another video of my emerging design that includes this feature, just as soon as I get time.
Hi ... Thanks for this video, i'd love, i'm the new followers.😊
Have you considered pushing the ideal geometry mechanism to the front or back of the wheel instead of on top? The horizontal bars would require quite some torsional rigidity but it would help with keeping it out of sight of the rider, keeping the body mounting points low and keeping the wheel size unconstrained.
I haven’t put much thought into that option, but would certainly be worth considering! Simplicity and minimising weight would be a good test of success.
Thanks
Cntes Engeneering. Have a look. Great job!
Just wonderful. Thank you.
Your 1st "optimal" configuration will work for my design.
Have you started it yet?
Cheers
Thanks! Still working on the detailed design...
Wow excellent video
Thanks!
great!
This is really informative! One question though, how to make the vehicle stand upright on stop without any support?
Thanks - the normal way to do this is a tilt lock consisting of a modified brake disc and caliper.
Sir, my hat is off to your work, I want to build a tilting recumbent electric trike myself. Have you seen the Quadro system? What do you think about it?
Víctor René Valdivia Soto Hi, sorry for the late reply. I just checked out the Quadro hydraulic tilting system. I think it’s a neat way of combining the suspension with a tilt lock. The hydraulics and air shock could be mounted anywhere. You would probably need small, custom made pistons light enough for use on a human powered vehicle. I imagine the tilting action would be slightly sluggish (slow) for a HPV, but that may not be a bad thing. Thanks for putting me onto it!
This is brilliant seeing your thought process. I've also been playing around with this concept in my head. I do have a serious question though. Wouldn't the 2 front wheels tilt at different angles in a turn (actually all 3 would be at different tilt angles) due to the different paths each one is taking? The angles would be dependent on speed and radius of turn I think.
In theory maybe the tilt angles should be different, but I doubt it would have much impact in practice, especially with thin tyres.
Great Presentation, I’m working on an idea for a tilting trike recumbent myself. Challenging I must say, your approach is inspiring!
Thanks! I hope your project is successful.
How about hubless wheels? And since I see others thought of it, also in hub suspension.
Would angling the wheels so that the contact point of the wheel with the ground is in-line with the arms help?
Sort of like how some wheel chairs have tilted wheels to achieve better stability.
Did you try turning that T arm up side down ? Hook both springs to the bottom of the T arm upside down.Your missing out on 18 to 23 degrees of travel.
Amazing, I’d love To make a trike and this is so interesting, what happens if you have the passenger body volume tilt more than the wheels? Eg at 45deg the wheels are at 30 deg. Is that rideable? Really cool channel and presentation, subbed thanks!
what a nice demonstration and explanation.
did you consider to use a expansion shock instead of a compression shock? this way you could "invert" the shock and place it under the upper arms where you might have more room.
Yes that would definitely be an option!
Greate job.
What will work to get the bicycle self supported?
It should balance in the same way as a normal bike or like a reverse-trike scooter.
Thanks sir
I'm just thinking Ackerman should be applied to your tilting action, as that is how you'll be steering at higher speeds. I assume higher speed correct tracking is more important to you than low speed start and end of ride tracking. The turning mechanism is only needed for slow speed small radius maneuvering. Maybe the tilting mechanism can be a sub-assembly mounted on a pivot, which would be the pitch axis for turning the whole tilting assemble in the left/right horizontal plane for tight turns.I'm Thinking of a handle bar that can be pushed left and right for tilt, and twisted in the usual bicycle manner for turning the tilt mechanism on the horizontal plane for tight turns. I'm saying this several different ways, because I can't put a picture of it on TH-cam.
Found your video very interesting and informative. Really like your method of paper and pin analysis. Wonder if you experimented with unequal length parallel arms and/or a mono-shock for the upper. Also, a more bulbous front may not be so terrible for aerodynamics. It would be the classical teardrop shape, although not as appealing to the eye. As with all things mechanical, there is no one perfect solution. It's always a compromise. Keep going and the best of luck.
Hi, I think you are right that a more bulbous design would not harm aerodynamics (and would probably be better) but it would reduce wheel clearance and would look a bit pants too!
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.
Thank YOU!
very interesting, perhaps you could use the buddy it self (a shell like) to transfer horizontal forces across. Could not see very clear the relationship to the driver's geometry.
interesting info thank you. I have been thinking of entering a downhill soapbox derby since 2004, and am yet to realise my dream! I have had a design in my mind similar to this for over a decade now, but with no welding skills I have not even begun a prototype. With no need for pedaling, i was going to use a kayak with a steel/ally frame fitted within. Then the front assembly remains outside the moncoque shell and can get some serious lean. I was going to incorporate the rear suspension of a downhill bike on the rear wheel. Im looking forward to seeing how this project of yours progresses. Ill get into my local hackerspace hopefully and recruit someoine who knows what theyre doing to help me :D
When custom building these, where do you find an appropriate wheel/hub/axel combo? I see regular track gokart fittings are easily available, but would you be needing to custom build the hub/axel fitting yourself or are there off the shelf suitable parts?
BigRedWrenster I will be looking to use standard bike parts, including the wheels and hubs. The steering mech and the rest of the tilting mechanism will be home-made. The front wheel axles may need to be home made on the lathe as they will be cantilevered (i.e. fixed at one end only) but I am sure such things are commercially available too.
I’m going to do another video soon showing the details of the steering mechanism design.
@@MetalMachineShop
There are some BMX wheels made for 14 mm axles that can be fitted to a 15 mm shaft by simply removing the tube. We used them on our pedal cars, if you need to make traction with those wheels just get the hubs for disc brakes and weld a flange on the shaft in order to use the six holes to connect shaft to wheel.
Some insight from having built a bunch of human powered streamliners including 3 wheeled leaners.
Weight and complexity are always a hindrance to efficiency when powered by fractional horsepower engines (humans).
Lighter, simpler yields the best results.
A 2 wheeler with side openings so either a foot or hand can touch the ground at a stop worked out the best ... for me.
The speeds that can be attained with a good light weight human powered streamliner it truly amazing.
Your results may vary.
Hi, thanks for your comment! I totally agree that light weight and simplicity is the right way to go for out and out speed. I am prepared to sacrifice a bit (but not too much) of speed for practicality. I am pitching my design at reasonably practical year round (in UK) commuting type use, and and intending to use electrical assistance. I also have in mind a faster two-wheeled design. Anyway, it’s all still on the drawing board at this point!
Lightweight and simplicity is a nice advantage for all weather, everyday practicality. Even when adding the weight of motors and batteries. This statement is based on years of complex testing and personal experience.
All the best with your build.
Your results may vary.
your suspension arms pivots are offset of the wheel , then put the pivots on the body offset also . left wheel arms mounted ofset to the right on the body and right wheel pivots offset to the left on the body and they cross them self
Incorporating torsion bars as the inner pivot shafts eliminates interference from shocks or springs as you depict them as well as maintains upright stance when stationary with a small amount of preload. Simple, lightweight and effective for a human powered vehicle.
Steven Mitchell - he's designing a free leaning trike. The suspension and tilting are decoupled.
@@flannel2699 That's why I suggested small torsion bars. Depending on the number of pivot points he uses, he could get away with just one or two. By coupling the suspension and tilting systems, the design is simplified. Fewer parts, less interference, less weight. Even damping could be incorporated using friction discs at select pivots instead of hydraulics. Human power vehicle performance is seriously degraded as weight increases. Less weight=less power required/better performance. It's easy to copy someone else's design/idea but designing and building your own working solution is much more satisfying.
Steven Mitchell - I thought you were suggesting using torsion bars as actual pivots (like a 50's Riley or E-Type) but if you mean torsion bars mounted coaxially within the pivots that would definitely be neat and compact. Apologies if I misunderstood. Many seasoned engineers have made similar mistakes regarding tilting vehicle linkage setups. Even the eminent Tony Foale got it completely wrong in his book on the subject.. ( so you would have been in pretty good company..!)
what are your thoughts on using driveshaft instead of chain? like the focus on efficient performance. solid work. good luck. if i sacrificed any efficiency it would be to (pun alert) lean toward larger wheels for smoother ride.
It can be done. I’ve seen a hire bike with a drive shaft. You would need hub gearing rather than normal bike gears. On my recumbent velomobile design, you would need a couple of universal joints to route the shaft around the rider, plus extra supporting bearings. Shaft drive would be a bit less efficient than chain, but could be enclosed more easily. I also found on my velomobile design that smaller wheels were needed to give steering clearance and to keep the overall length within reasonable limits. I talk about this in one of my other videos. Enjoyed the pun lol!