#2 Tilting Mechanism - Tadpole Tilting Cargo Trike Build
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.พ. 2025
- This is the second part of the design and build series “Open Source Tadpole Tilting Cargo Trike”. In this part we design and build the frame for the cargo and the tilting mechanism including caster plates, wishbones and knuckles.
Link to the playlist: • Open Source Tadpole Ti...
You are welcome to download the drawings in editable format and check the parts list in my webpage: www.powercircu...
JLC3DP were so kind to offer the Cable Steering Pulleys 3D printed in metal. Please consider their 3D printing and other manufacturing services:
jlc3dp.com/?fr...
0:00 Intro
1:19 Cargo Frame
2:23 Caster Plates
4:02 Wishbones
7:23 Assembly
10:45 Knuckles
12:12 Shock Absorber
12:25 Logo
13:36 Help!
14:54 Next
Long ago I joined a yahoo message board dedicated to tilting trikes because I had wanted to build a safe but cheap commuter vehicle. I don't even know if that message board exists anymore, probably not. Now I work from home and don't need a commuter vehicle, but I still believe tilting trikes hit the sweet spot for safety, ease of use, practicality and potentially cost. Nobody needs to drive their Tundra to and from their office job. I'm glad to see there are still people out there tinkering with the concept. Keep up the good work Pedro! Oh, and back when I was interested in this stuff, practical electric motor power wasn't even a thing, now there's electric powered bikes and vehicles everywhere. Should pair perfectly with tilting trikes.
Thank you so much! I live in Amsterdam so >90% of my commute is already by bike but there is a need for bigger vehicles that can help with cargo, take the kids, etc. And I have passion for creating things, optimizing and sharing the knowledge to help others make as well. I have high expectations for this version of the trike;)
Cheers!
True. The availability of electric bicycle drive systems creates fantastic options for commuter cargo bikes.
With traffic jams in most major cities, these should be very popular.
The 250 watt limit in most cities needs to be lifted. That said, a lot of people ignore it and just ride safely under the radar.
@@restfulplace3273 I wasn't even aware of this limit. Seems silly given how fast your average gas powered scooter can go. Not much difference in safety between the two vehicles.
@@kevin_delgado the safety issue comes into play when ppl ride at speed on shared bikeway / pedestrian zones.
Far too many idiots ride fast too close to pedestrians.
@@restfulplace3273, ya, mostly in cities with steep hills, 250 W may not be enough. But, keep in mind that 250 W is the max nominal power. The drive unit is still allowed to produce more in instances of high demand.
Thanks for the mention, love the new logo!
Thank you!
Is it just me or does the new logo look like a rotated Opel emblem?
@@fogas12 I hear that a lot so it must look like;). But the intention is to look like an "N" and a lightning bolt.
I made that same suspension using legos legos=cheaper testing and when I was in high school. 35+ years ago. videos like this I envy
full scale builds
I agree that it's good to test things out with models. Earlier in this project, I 3D printed in small scale.
Cheers!
That logo plate turned out beautifully!
Thank you so much!
Agree for bushings , it is a validated path by many years of production and usage.
Thank you! I may have to do a comparative version one day;)
Cheers!
GRACIAS,GRACIAS, GRACIAS!! El video mejor explicado y filmado que encontre., gracias ❤❤❤.
@@WalterAndresQuiroga de nada! Gracias!
The early Audi TT’s had rose joints on the rear lateral links for the Quattro variant. 8 of them!
They were known to seize eventually with road salt and water ingress.
People eventually replaced them with bushings as it was only a very small amount of rotation.
Such a cool project, congratulations.
Hi, thank you so much! Indeed I can see a wide idea that ball joints are more susceptible to damage due to water ingress.
Cheers!
Glad I’m not alone trying to work out the riddle of a proper front end for a 2f1r.
I’m looking for off road work, more than “grocery getter”, or whatever your going for.
Thanks for sharing your genius
Thank you;) Indeed, I'm trying to make this work and help others that are trying to make this work.
Cheers!
Not really a design tip, but when you finish welding a section it is beneficial to leave the TIG torch over the finished weld for a few additional seconds so that the shielding gas protects the weld while it cools. This can improve the weld quality!
Aah, indeed! I have the machine set for leaving the gas open 1 sec after turning off the torch but looks like I'm forgetting to leave the torch there... Thank you for pointing that out!!
@pedro-neves I'm not an amazing welder but I'd think it'd not hurt to do a few seconds
@@EricBrummer that is also right. I think that 1 s may be too short... Thank you!
Hi, While we’re at it, never removing the filler rod out of the shield gas area whilst hot makes it easier to weld without occasional spatter when starting next time and eliminating any inclusions (impurities). Just keeping the rod and weld gun nozzle there during the time gas faces out and you will enjoy the benefits. 😊
Last but not least! I mean, wow! Your video content nails me to the chair watching!.Hat off for you!
Kind regards
Anders
Sweden
@@tomfull6637 thank you so much for the extra tips and for the extra kind words!
Un poco de calor en la pieza postiza dilata y facilita el montaje. Felicitaciones por el gran trabajo de investigación y compartir! Excelente!
Indeed, I realize this is a technique to fit tight components. Thank you very much!
Cheers!
@@pedro-nevesYeah, even better if you heat the caster plates tube (even a hair dryer would do) and put an ice pack on the frame tube. I did something similar when I had to remove the rear casette from a bike when I was a teenager.
I came to comment heating the outer tube with the plates to expand it and laying an ice pack into the inner tube. Then you remove the ice pack and let the outer tube cool down in the correct position and you’ll have a perfect press fit. Might even make the inner tube a smidge larger to really keep it from moving 😊
@@YurkerYT that's a very practical way of doing it. Great tip!
@@RobiBue indeed this idea with the ice inside and the heat in the outer tube sounds like a great tip for a press fit. Thank you!
A ball joint is a good solution, helps with not perfect tolerance in home shops. Roller thrust bearing could help with weight saving, so would Teflon washers. But longevity might be an issue. Compromise is always part of good design. You're doing good, really cool project and design. Tadpole is a good idea for cargo HPV. Keep it going. Thank you
Thank you so much for your kind comment and the suggestions. Indeed, I'm super happy with the ball joints. They made the build easier and there's no noticeable play!;)
Cheers!
@@BHrobry yehwhat I'm thinking
I'm in hospital ,sorry bout Grammer . Still cloudy
Love the video and great build - welding and assembly solutions, like the jig for the wishbones, awesome
Thank you so much! Indeed, I do not have a proper workshop, so I come up with alternative solutions using what I have.
Cheers!
So excited when I saw a new episode for the reverse trike! I’m dreaming of building my own soon and this is helping so much.
Thank you so much! It is so inspiring to know that this is helping!
Cheers! And Good luck with your build!
Love the logo (and our build of course 😉).. It would be really silly but also cool if it would be weighted and somehow rotating so that it's always upright when tilting! Like the hub caps on a Rolls Royce and emphasis on your tilting mechanism. No-one would ever see it but you and I would know about it! 😂
Thank you! Hehe, indeed a logo on the wheels like Rolls Royce would be super cool! Perhaps in the luxury version of the trike;)
Cheers!
I like your project a lot!
Regarding your problems with fitting the steeringassembly onto the frame tube, I would suggest to look into making this frame tube out of a rectangular or oval shaped profile. The reason is, that you will have quite some torque applied to the holes your bolt sits in. Currently the "friction fit" you created helps against that, but if you decide to have it lose, the bolt might wear out the hole it is mounted in or crack the frame tube over time. (A lot of force is applied to the relatively small walls of the hole and due to roads not being smooth it will be quite a violent application of force)
Even better would be to have your front assembly by like a "T" seen from the top and a triangle from the side, made of sheet material for easy manufacturing. Then you have a lot of rigidity, no problem of it possibly being rotated+shearing off a bolt and the ball joints etc. could be covered from the bottom against dirt ingress. You could even use this as a front "cheeseplate" for mounting lights, logo, etc.
Keep it up and good luck! :)
Thank you so much! Indeed, I agree that it would be better to fit two shapes that resolve the rotational forces and have the bolts (or bolts) only securing the translational forces.
Cheers!
I think for you tubing sizes are fine, but you should - especially with Aluminium have baked it at 230C before installation. It would tap on easily, then cool to a press fit. Exceptional video. Thank you very much for posting.
Thank you very much! I have been receiving quite good tips about press fitting. I will definitely do a better job next time I'm press fitting two aluminium parts;)
Cheers!
Cool Bike. I really like it.
To your logo, its basically an Opel Logo especially 1964-70
Thank you! Haha! It's true;) There are so many logos with some variation of a lightning bolt;)
Obviously the ball joints are a bit heavier and a bit more expensive than bushes. But easier to manufacture at home as you said. I’d like to see how they look like after 20,000kms. I’m a little concerted about the single weld on the ball joints to hold them in. I’d love others POV. I’d be using a thread adhesive / locker for the threads into the alloy. Maybe even consider a grub screw to tighten it as well.
I hope you got my monetary gift! Well done!!!
Hello Andrew, indeed, this seems to be the consensus about ball joints vs bushings and I agree. And I'm also curious about the wear of the ball joints. I'm hoping that this version will be the one that I'll ride as my main vehicle and I'll assess the wear in some time.
I also regret having welded the frame side ball joints to the tubes. Now they are not even replaceable. It's in the list of improvements for the next generation;)
I did receive your gift a couple of months ago and I truly appreciate it. I do have to come up with ways to monetize this project, and as I try different things, this encourages me to continue.
Thank you and good luck with your projects as well!
I think a lot of motorcycle/dirt bike/scooter swingarms use bushings rather than bearings or ball joints, but because they're good enough and cheaper/last practically forever compared to bearings/balljoints which both need a lot more care and maintenance. I feel like since the tilting mechanism *is* part of how you steer the trike, you want maximum rigidity outside of your intended axes of rotation, versus the kind of play that bushings allow in two axes. When you add the play up between the two sides, I think you could get a 'wobble-steer'/resonant vibration in your suspension arms. It might be smoother over certain types of surface roughness (gravel of a certain size at a specific speed?) to have bushings, but you already have a shock and the flex in the main tube of the frame to do that, so I say keep the balljoints. Stiff rotational links and a tuned shock is always gonna handle better than the slop you'd get with bushings, even when the bushings are giving you a more comfortable ride with that slop in the system. Different story if it was just a single swingarm, of course, and it probably depends on load and surface quite a bit, too. Maybe the 'sport' version keeps balljoints, and the 'delivery' version of the trike gets bushings if it turns out the ball joints don't last as long as you'd like under hard use?
That's incredibly good advice, thanks! Actually, the thing I like the most about this build is that it has no detectable play anywhere. It is so rigid! I think it's gonna be super cool to ride.
I hope the ball joints last!;)
Cheers!
I'd just finished writing "The bushing is always the correct choice, with the caveat that it must be thoughtfully designed and of an appropriate stiffness." when I happened to glance at your comment. You're 100% correct that ball joints will ensure intended geometry under extreme use cases, that's why you see them on performance control arms. They're also illegal to fit to a registered vehicle where I live, due to the service life and failure mode of the ball joint. You're right though, both have a use case. Unlike the ball bearings, who were doomed from the start.
@@maccadan90 thank you so much for the extra notes! I'm learning that ball joints are not the most durable things in the world. Even illegal to fit to protect consumers in some places? Super interesting. If this design is good, I'll definitely ride it until it wears out and try to improve the durability.
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves Illegal to fit to a car, your use case here is much less extreme. I think you will get reasonable life out of the ball joints, but the slop will begin as soon as they start to wear. It's important to change them early because they progress from worn to catastrophic failure much faster than an equivalent bush. This may still be a long time! I'd also strongly recommend dust caps over a light layer of the correct grease for the joint. The cleaner you keep them, the longer they will last.
PS I stumbled upon you while you were iterating this, I can't wait to see it ridden in its final form! Keep up the awesome work!
@@maccadan90 the failure modes were also what concerned me, although it's nice to know I can find ball joints that small for projects so I can consider them in the future. Thanks for bringing it up.
Thanks!
Super Thank You So Much! It's a very happy feeling to see my work appreciated.
@@pedro-neves Just because your creations are amazing. Let's watch the trike hitting the road
@@Alby_Torino thank yo so much! I look forward to it;) I'm hoping this will be the version that will be my main vehicle;)
~ 9:30 fitting the tubes..
If you never want to disassemble it, and you are confident to get position and alignment right first time (use jigs)....
Heat the large tube (a lot) and it will slide on easily.
Thank you! I've been told about this trick in the meantime and I will keep it in mind for next time when I have a tight fit with two aluminium parts.
Cheers!
You're a super talent, Pedro. 👍🇦🇺👍
Thank you for your kind words!;)
Cheers!
Great work! Greetings from a Portuguese maker/ machinist.
Obrigado! Cumprimentos!
the cable steering is clean, but a dealer that carries cable and rod style steering informed me that they preferred a steering rod because the cables stretch over time and felt more vague.. Love your build. I want to build something at some point, like an electric rikshaw.
Aah, interesting note, thank you. I think I didn't ride it enough to feel the stretching. I'll certainly keep an eye for it.
Thank you! Good luck with your build!
The weld penetration will shrink the tube ID. I usually use a flap wheel in a drill or air grinder to clean out tubes after welding and open it out if needed. It saves battering your hard work.
That's a really good tip, thank you!
@@pedro-neves a cylinder/bore hone which is 3 sanding stones, or a brush style, that you can spin with a drill is another tool to help with the contraction from welding. They use them in auto repair/restoration
Yes. I wouldn’t recommend 1mm different tubing.
@@onekilo1 I need to get me one of those! Or make.
A reaming tool is the industry standard for correct tube internal diameter. But 50+ mm will be a beast!
Very nice build, love the design. I think you have the ball joints mounted wrong, they are intended to work in the same plane as your outer joints. The movement of the joint is in the same axis as the mounting centre hole.
Hello, interesting, thank you! I think I have a lot to learn about ball joints...
Cheers!
nice idea! thanks for sharing your idea and design file!
Thanks! My pleasure;)
Brilliant work
Thank you so much!
Hi Pedro , love your content, you have opened my eyes.
Do you think your tilting suspension could be utilized for a trailer for my tenere ?
I’d love to create a work trailer for myself .
Hi, thank you so much!
I have never built a trailer so I'm not very familiar with the dynamics of a trailer. If you thunk that a tilting mechanism would be good for it, you can probably take many design and build ideas from my build, I hope it helps;)
@@pedro-neves it will ,thanks Pedro ,check out man cave movies . My page . Still a little dormant .
Very neat designs. I like the uniball joints very much.
Thank you so much!
Great video and great suggestion on the logo 🙌🙏👊
Thank you so much!
@7:37 Yeah the welding will warp your tubes and make friction fit surfaces almost never slide smoothly. Sizing up the tubes would probably be the only option part from welding directly onto the frame and not doing the friction fit at all. The other option would be to weld onto a cylinder rather than a hollow pipe. Then machine out the 54 cm diameter hole after the welds are complete
Use a brass insert/mandrel to keep the tube's shape while welding?
Thank you. Ya, in my previous build I had a 1 mm gap between the sizes of the tubes. It was a steel build so things are a little different but this worked well.
Cheers!
@@noelgrandin , thanks! Wouldn't a mandrel only support the ends of the tube and let the middle warp?
@@pedro-neves not if you used a solid cylinder of brass as a mandrel
@@noelgrandin thank yo so much and excuse me for the questions, which may not seem great because I'm a mechanical hobbyist - with a solid cylinder, wouldn't it be hard to remove it after welding?
Thanks!
This is so exciting for me to see, thanks for the update. I’m already collecting parts, have built some front wheels and I’m thinking about some jigs. Rose joints like these do wear so I guess my worry is making them replaceable. On my previous cargo bike build I have them in the steering linkage - i turned down some long nuts and welded those into the tube ends, might take the same approach here.
Thank you so much! Ya, indeed I agree that it's a great option to weld nuts to make the components replaceable! It's much better than welding the components directly to the tubes.
Cheers!
Hi Folks,
the Evolution of your Bike ist amazing...
Have Phun
Thank you! Have fun you too!
The major reason why bushings are used in production vehicles (apart from low cost) is because they offer "no maintenance until replacement time", unlike bearings which require regular maintenance. The issue I see is a choice of materials for the suspension load bearing parts. Aluminium is not great for withstanding vibrations. That's where the point for bushings would be valid as they absorb the vibrations better than bearings. In any case please consider using steel alloy for the suspension assembly in your final build.
Still, high regard for your aluminium welding practice 👍
Hello, I went with 8 mm thick plates for holding the wishbones, which seem to me like a very tough component. In my previous build, I did many tests after building it, and they were a little bit subjective. For this build, I'm planning to be more scientific with the tests. It may make sense to add torsion sensors to some places to calculate the durability of the aluminium parts. Probably I'll do some reading about standard tests for bikes.
Hehe, indeed my aluminium welding is going better than I expected;) I just bought the cheapest second hand equipment that I could find to start welding aluminium, and I'm learning a lot.
Cheers!
Thank you for making this video
Thank you for your inspiring comment;)
i like your work on this. since you asked. i was thinking connecting the knuckle to the frame may be better served by using a steering damper between the two knuckles i believe it would help locate the wheels while simultaneously controling the wheels tendency to shake.
Thanks! Indeed I rode a trike once that had a steering damper (a Bakfiets trike) and it felt pretty good.
Cheers!
8:51 you experienced my job here haha, yeah 54 in for 54 out NEVER gets in without hammering and damage, even without welding. The CAD is smooth and perfect and (I learned it the hard way as a junior CAD) never ever applies in reality. At least 1 mm even 1,5 mm of gap when you want to position something 🙂 besides, I wish you good luck for the day you may want to put that part out to put something else in place !
That mentionned, great job !
Indeed, CAD does not meet reality. I think I haven't reached junior level. I'm still at hobbyist level;)
When I want to take it out, I'll have to cut it for sure!
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves You still achieve great at a hobbyist level !
sure
cheers !
en trabajo excelente, y una pedagogía excepcional, hiciste un comentario respecto a los casquillos , rotulas, en un proyecto parecido utilice silentblocs de caucho (casquillo caucho casquillo) y conseguí un resultado muy bueno
saludos y sigue ofreciendo estos magníficos videos
Muchas Gracias!
Thank you very much Pedro for the update. It would be great to measure and show the final tilting angle that you will be able to get from the mechanism. Also, I don't know if you mentioned in the previous update, what is the final steering input to output ratio you have chosen ?
You are welcome;)
I will definitely inform about the tilting angle of the trike and I will assess if it's sufficient, after riding.
Regarding the steering ratio, this is defined by the diameter of the pulleys. The one on the steering handle is 73 mm and the one in the front is 63 mm. This means that the steering input is multiplied by 1.16. I just wanted to make the steering a little bit sharper than just direct.
Cheers!
The chagrin on your face after beating your beautiful front end on was engaging. You can adjust the fit on male parts with a long strip of sandpaper wrapped around. The female with a flapper disk on a drill. There’s always the hot and cold trick if you can manage it. I think covering it up with that nifty new logo was a good idea.
Aah, I was in so much pain after all that hammering. Once it was half in, there was nothing to do but to continue...
I have received quite a few very good tips for fitting tight aluminium parts. Thank you so much!
Great to see it coming together. Great colour choice and logo ( but the botton spike will snap off in no time so needs some revision). For your consideration...Forget the (hammer on) collar assembly and weld striaght to the frame next time - You need to be more ruthless concerning the weight. It all adds up! I think the cargo frame might need a front stop of some description, to prevent the load clashing with the wheels when braking hard. The ball joints look right and best suited for this set up. Can't wait to see it running. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you so much for your kind words and suggestions!
Indeed those spikes are meant to break off some day. I'll have to make something more durable.
The best would have been to weld the plates directly in the frame. The reason why I weld out is because I don't have a good fixture to hold the frame and its hard to turn things around. Also, I consider the possibility of this not being the last version and having to undo things.
Regarding the weight, I'm really hoping that this will be a lighter version. My last build was 45 kg and that's just too much!
Indeed, you are right about the cargo bay. It is not finished. I just wanted to get the structural buts made before I went to the front. In the end I'll add some functional parts to the cargo bay.
Thank yo so much! Cheers!
I like the 3d metal printed pulleys for the cable steering.
I'm working on addressing the poor turning circle of my recumbent bike by converting it to cable steering, and having a set of lobed, not circular, pulleys coupled with polymer cords. The idea is to have a smaller gear ratio when going straight ahead for less sensitivity, and a larger ratio when reaching the limit of rotation of the handle bars for a tight turning circle (under seat steering limits the range of motion considerably compared to upright cargo bikes).
Thank you!
Sounds great to have a changing steering ration depending on speed (like the Cybertruck;)). If you can pull int off in a simple, mechanical way, it would be pretty cool! I hope you share it;)
Cheers!
@frankReif I'd love to learn more about your project. If you have the time and itch to share what you're doing I'll be the first to read it:) It reminds me a lot of the "exponential" transfer curves that are also frequently used by quadcopter enthusiasts!
@@feudiable I think it's very specific to recumbents with under seat steering.
I'm not familiar with the quadcopter reference. I did get the polymer cord idea from them, though. It can be wound around a much tighter radius without damaging over many cycles - unlike steel cables, which wear quickly.
Great and amazing job!
Thank yo so much!
Excellent work 💪
Thank you!
The "open" balljoints will collect some dust and dirt and will therefore wear faster. The balljoints (also called rose joints) that I use, have a provision for a grease nipple. This way moisture and any dirt will remain on the outside and when pressing fresh grease, remove any dirt build-up inside of the joint. It might be an idea to make yours grease-able as well, it would however, add to maintenance schedules.
Other then that, another cracking update on your project. Mine (human powered amphibious vehicle) has slowed down to a crawling speed for now.
Have fun Pedro!
Pjotr
Hello Pjotr, thank you so much for that tip! Indeed I have been thinking what may be some differences between good and bad ball joints. A way to maintain like changing grease sounds like a good improvement for sure.
Your project sounds very interesting! If you're sharing it somewhere shoot us a link.
Cheers!
I'm not sure what's available where you are, but there is a tool for honing engine cylinders that you mount in a standard drill that you can use to fix the issue you had with that mounting tube getting distorted in the welding process.
Try searching "cylinder bore tool" or "cylinder bore honing tool"
Hello, thank you very much! Indeed I am familiar with honing tools and I agree that this would work very well with the problem that I had.
Cheers!
Thx 4 sharing. I hope the TH-cam community can help you profect your project. 👍 here
Thank you! The TH-cam community has helped me so much! I get great tips on fabrication, vehicle geometry, etc. I learn a lot every time I share.
Cheers!
The bike is light weight so you could replace a lot of materials easily with Igus (I'm not an affiliate I just like their stuff) materials - they make filament for many of their materials and also offer bar, rod, sheet, and powdered (for sintering applications) stock as well as a build service which I've never used but exists (I've used a few other online fabricators for parts - it's a little more than getting it done locally but usually all the local fab shops are booked out months in advance from all the companies here that use them for their fixturing.
But they make replacements/upgrades for heavy machinery/industrial applications (bearings, high wear parts, low friction applications, etc) so it's worth looking into - you might save weight, cost, lead times, your own shop time, and effort.
I know a bit about materials and fabrications, but I'm learning about tiling fronts on reverse trikes right along with you - I'm disabled and my current ride has unfavorable geometry in a lot of the parts (Fat Tad CXS, if you turn too far the front wheels will bind against the frame on one side while getting into my legs on the other, simultaneously. It needs a lot more wheel travel too, as well as rebound damping (rebound is especially nice to control, because it has flipped me at least twice due to pogo sticking off a chunk of bedrock (I live in a volcanic region so half the grass patches conceal basalt small outcroppings that pedestrians don't care about but they can and have flipped me over on my trike).
Indeed, sometimes I also need help with the fabrication of some components. I also found a shop near where I live that rents big machines on their shop per hour (like a big metal lathe). These things come handy for sure.
It's very nice to learn while doing;) And it sounds like you need a new iteration for your vehicle with a few improvements.
Good luck with your builds!
I see some confusion in the comments about bushings, about them beeing less stiff / wobbly or absorbing vibration.
There are generally two things called bushing:
1. A bearing with no rolling elements. Usually made out of two differnt metals, one of them should be a somewhat self-lubricating metal like sinter bronze or brass. This metal can be replaced with teflon or similar plastics. Additionally, these types of bearings are normally lubricated with oil or grease. This is the type used in older motorcycles swingarms (with two different metals and grease) and can take a lots of force, but only at slow speeds and is therefore well suited for suspension.
2. Rubber bushings are often used for control arms in the automotive sector. They are different in the sense that there is no sliding motion but only rubber twisting and flexing. Because this rubber can flex in any direction when under load, it is harder to design a good suspension geometry with them. Things like static forces from additional weight tend to change the geometry a little bit and then they also act like springs on their own, because the rubber exerts a force to get back to its original shape. They absorb vibration and road harshness well, but because of the design difficulties i wouldnt recommend them for such a build
Thank you so much! This is why it's so cool to ask questions here. I understand those two kinds of bushings now.
Cheers!
Here is avideo that shows automotive bushings that are used in tuning and racing:
th-cam.com/video/8Ex0dGojHZI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=yL1jDslLYv2Jb6wN
Those polyurethane bushing do a little bit of cushioning but are way more ridgid than rubber bushings. The inner sleeve is also lubricated and therefore rotates without adding any spring rate to the system, so basically best of both worlds. I could imaginge that theese would be very well suited for such a trike and the materials should be cheap. PU can even be molded at home into any shape desired
@@ichebensonstniemand rubber moulded bushings (with the rubber and metal bonded) would work great here, lasting forever and even allowing the trike to stay upright by itself as they excert a little force to return to center. They are also known as silentblocks or antivibration bushings.
They can be bought as suspension knuckle bushings, and are very cheap
@@nirodperThats true, i havent thought about the return force as an advantage. However it is still more complicated to calculate a suspension, as return forces are most often not specified by the supplier. In my experience with lower control arms of cars those return forces can easily exceed 40kgf and therefore would eliminate the need for a shock on the trike all together, but also maybe inhibit the tilting to much.
Edit: 40kgf for something like ~8cm of suspension travel
@@ichebensonstniemand I'm a big fan of this channel and I've actually seen this video before! Interesting enough, I commented on this video a while ago that it was the best bushings video I ever saw. We are aligned;)
So many smart people in the chat. Amazing! I was wondering how you would know if that shock works for this application? How would you know if it's too hard or soft?
True! I've been learning so much about making a vehicle via the comments on my videos! Every time I lean about geometries and ways to build it better.
For the shock absorber, what I did is I picked the one with the most travel that I could find (50 mm in this case) and the bounce is regulatable and also the pressure (by inflating or deflating the air tank of the shock) so I can set it and find how it works best.
Cheers!
You could use the open tube ends on the top A-arms as mounting points for a swaybar.
Hi, That might be. I haven't thought of sway bars much as they're typically used to prevent roll in cars and here roll is desired. What purpose do you have in mind?
If you have access to metal 3d printing, I think the next time around it would be awesome to try generative design for the front arms. Perfect application for that!
If you are talking about Generative AI then you obviously aren't aware that it's not AI at all and although many companies claim it AI, they are jumping on the bs wagon. Don't take my word for it, do your own research but don't make suggestion you don't have person experience with. AI sounds cool but no one has created it yet and what they are calling AI won't take over the world, it also will create nothing new that regular software wasn't already doing. Presets, randomizing and predefined heavily weighted results to give the illusion of AI. One big sham to shamefully charge premiums for GPUs and services. It will all become apparent as people continue to sink billions in but fail to get the results that were promised.
@@jmcgrath5031he meant additive, not generative. 3D printing is an additive process.
As for the AI hype, it is what it is, a bubble. But there are definitely some things on the software and hardware side that are quite useful coming out of it. So it's not nearly as black and white as you're making it out to be.
Agreed that ball joints seem the best option given the manufacturing abilities. Bushings and bearings could work too, given the low speeds and limited range of movement i agree with the other saying bushings over ball bearings, but in either case they need to be coaxial.
Thank you for that! I feel like these ball joints will be a good solution for now and I'll be able to test their durability;)
Cheers!
Great work !! I think that you would be better using a screwed or bolted in STEEL axle as aluminum goes very soft with welding, unless you can heat treat it correctly afterwards...
Thank you! I'm at a point where I already created the axles in aluminium, but I didn't consider that they may lose shape after welding... Cross fingers!
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves even if they stay straight, they will be very soft and weak...
@@kiwiwombatman indeed steel can withstand more but the axles that I'm working on are 25 mm in diameter. I don't wanna reveal too much because I think that the choice I'm making is interesting specially for an Open Source project. I hope you watch the next video and would be super cool if we keep discussing the axles after you've seen them. I love discussing criticism to my designs and builds. That has been a major help to improving things.
Thank you!
Nice work
Thank you!
If the two pipes originally sleeved well but now they don't, then perhaps you could try doing all the welding with the two pipes already sleeved together. In this way, as the outer pipe warps slightly in the heat, it will grip the inner pipe very well and the job should become easier as you go. You can then weld both ends, job done.
Absolutely. The reason why I welded it outside is just because it's easier to put in the right position the part that I'm welding rather than rotating the whole vehicle. But then, I ended up having 10X work. Well, I learned.
Cheers!
Hi Pedro looks awesome, I just wanted to state something tho which may never be a problem however ball joints take the load the other way around. So often the back of a ball joint is just a tin cap and often don’t even rub on the back face of the ball only the face the rod comes out. The reason I say it probably won’t matter is the load on the joint is so low, but yea the top ball joints should be flipped 90degrees.
Hi, thanks, interesting. The reason why I designed like this is so that those ball joints don't limit the amount of tilting or else it's just not enough. But, if the ball joints are not designed to work like this, then it has to be considered. I have seen on commercial vehicles such as buggies this kind of use so I thought it is alright.
@@pedro-neves the ball joint is but if you look at a commercial buggy the ball joint will be in the same orientation as yours, however the load will be on the bottom arm not the top where yours is, and so the ball joint on a buggy is being pulled out not pushed in.
I did however almost delete my comment because I did not want to discourage you. Few people actually do things and you’re doing a good and cool thing and to be honest because the load is so low it probably is fine. So if all the comment does is give you more knowledge then I’m glad but if it makes you feel like not trying things in case somebody says something then disregard it lol.
@@CourtneyMckegan please write what you think if you feel like writing! I have learned so much by sharing on TH-cam and I cannot express how much I appreciate it. I said it on a couple of videos how much I appreciate constructive criticism and I mean it and I use it to improve the design and build.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and teaching.
Cheers!
Turning and machining the Pulleys wheels would probably save money and time. A lathe could also solve the Tolerance issue on the steering Tube
Indeed. The Pulleys were 3D printed in metal and offered by the sponsor fortunately but would be great if I had the tools to make them myself.
For the next part of the build that I'm working on now I actually had a lathe course in a place that then lets one rent the lathe, so I intend to show off my new basic lathe skills in the next video;)
Cheers!
I read in the comments the ball joints are subjet to serious wearing out. As you're doing a cargo bike, a small maintenance storage with spare linkage and tools could suffice :)
Indeed. I welded the frame side ball joints to the tubes but if it was now I would have welded nuts to the tubes to make the ball joints replaceable. Well, another improvement for the next iteration;)
Cheers!
Nice build. The way you've got the shoulder bolts makes little sense (normal bolts would be fine) but if you kept them then you could lose 2 of the 4 thick alloy plates, making the 'ball joints' mounted onto a single plate.
Thank you!
The shoulder bolts are really a choice to try to reduce to a minimum any chance of play. With a regular bolt, there is more space for it to move in the 12 mm hole.
Now you got me thinking of the 2 plate solution instead of 4. If I have to remake this, it will probably have only two plates;)
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves happy to help! I'm a design engineer.. 😊
@@mandrakejake thank you so much! In every video I make, I get lots of suggestions to improve and also real expert advice which has been driving many of the improvements. Really appreciate it.
Hello, nice job, i'm from the "fascinated guy's" band of tilting trikes (i discovered this with arcimoto trike ;) ) but i'm almost dry waiting for them to launch something.
Thank you! I'm also fascinated with tilting trikes;) It just can be such a great vehicle to ride! And with so many possible optimizations. Part from a great vehicle, it's also a great project!
Cheers!
Looks more like an aircraft build! 😀
Hehe, don't know about flying but I think I'll try to make it jump;)
Cheers!
The filler metal was applied hot to the cool tubing, then cooled off creating a ring around the pipe that contracted the I.D. Rather than using a larger I.D. outer tube, if you heat the materials to be welded the crimping effect will be lessened. You could also hone the inside of the crimped pipe at the weld joints to bring them back to their original I.D. Consider using all thread rod, nuts, washers, and end caps to bring the tubes together with a wrench rather than the cave man method.
Also, please consider using steel instead of Aluminum on your final design. I wouldn't want your frame to stress crack while hauling precious cargo.
Hello, thanks! And I agree with everything except one thing - the steel part.
If it's done correctly, an aluminium chassis is better than a steel chassis. Modern cars, motorbikes and bikes are made of aluminium. I know that I'm not doing the best aluminium chassis but if I'm working on aluminium at least I'm learning how to make it in the correct material so that one day, this is one of the best vehicles out there. I want to be aiming to be the best (even if I'm still far from it).
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves usually aluminum need heat treatment to release stress from welding and increasing fatigue resistance.
@@treszenrv9401 thank you! Indeed, I've been reading about this. For the moment, I'm trying to create a great design of a vehicle that is great to ride and build prototypes. A "product" version would, of course, have to be built with the best processes.
Cheers!
I've seen ball joints on several dune buggies holding up to hard use off-road.
If this turns out well, we'll find out if these ball joints on the trike are durable as well;)
Cheers!
Could've made an inner diameter sanding flap wheel with just a metal rod, glue and sandpaper. Then spin it with a drill to remove a few thousandths. Then no banging and deforming your workpiece
Ya, I could have been more patient and done something like that. I thought it would go in with a little bit of hammering but once it was half in then I had no choice;( I won't do this again for sure.
Cheers!
Increible !!!. exelent
Thank you so much!
Proper enough mate
Thanks!
@@pedro-neves👍Педро, интересный и продуманный проект. Особенно радует возможность сайта с открытой информацией🙏 Быть Добру и СоЗнанию✊️
@@user-augurus thank you very much!
One of the steps that you're missing from production methods is the heat treating after the final welding is complete. You either need to use steel or find a powder coating oven you can rent time from.
Absolutely. This is totally a prototype. I'm trying to make a prototype that is great to ride but with some limitations like not treated properly for durability.
Ball joints: they might be a bit more exposed to the elements and dust, and therefor may need more frequent lubrication? I would recommend PTFE for this (dry lubricant)
Hello and thank you so much for helping out! Indeed now I realize that there are also ball joints with an inlet for lubrication. Mine are the cheap kind so will probably not last as much. I hope this design will last so that I get enough distance on these ball joints to study the durability.
Cheers!
I’d buy it…reminds me of the Dutch Kinderfahrrads
This is cool, was looking to build something like that. What's the reason to pick aluminium and not cromo which is much easier to weld? Sorry, first video i've watched you have probably explained it before. And why not a pushrod for steering?
Thank you!
I chose aluminium because you can make a much lighter and stiffer chassis out of aluminium that with steel. That's why modern cars, motorcycles and bikes are made of aluminium. I'm aiming to make a truly great vehicle so I try to make choices that are in that direction.
For steering, I used connecting bars in previous builds, and I decided to try cable steering because I think it's somehow "cleaner", lighter and occupies less space.
Good luck with your build!
@@pedro-neves very cool, thank you
@@experimental_av thank you!
As for the ball joints/ball bearings/bushings question: Bushings. Clamp things together so everything's in alignment, maybe put a couple pieces of paper between flat surfaces while you're building it so things won't be so tight you can't get them together. Bushings handle load better, and ball bearings are more for higher speed rotation. Ball joints are only there to handle misalignment, which shouldn't exist if you've jigged everything properly during building. As long as everything is inline (which you just gotta constrain it like you already seem aware of) a self-lubricating bronze bushing is cheap and should be very sturdy/long lasting.
Now that I've checked responses, seems like a couple people have suggested plastic bushings. Which one would be better for the application would kinda depend on the loads, but since this is a bicycle and loads are limited by both the size of the suspension arms and the tires and wheels, the frame.. all that kinda thing.. some types of plastic would probably work alright. Important when designing around bushings to use a crush sleeve, cause if you don't, the bushing gets squeezed by the bolt and the entire assembly will either become solid or tear itself apart... or if the bushing is longer than the cup it's in (and is solid enough to take clamping forces needed to preload the bolt), it rotates around inside the cup, which is not how they're supposed to work.
I'd personally just go with a flanged bronze bushing with the flange facing the outside on each end of the wishbone, and that'll handle radial and thrust loads excellent. Wouldn't need a flange on the insides because your suspension arm would have to squeeze together in order to make that happen, and very little of that will be happening. Only concern I'd have with this setup would be a bit of noise and maybe road gunk becoming a grinding paste over time?
For clarity about the bushing rotating in the cup: the main reason that's a problem is that the cup the bushing goes into will be wearing, and it's harder to replace that cup than it is to replace a crush sleeve.
Important note about crush sleeves that I've encountered a lot of people getting wrong: The crush sleeve goes IN BETWEEN the two plates the bushing is mounted between. If you drill the holes so that the crush sleeve can slide through the hole, you're doing it wrong. It should be sandwiched by the outer plates and the bolt locks it into place. It shouldn't rotate.
Not trying to assume you don't know any of this, but I think it's all important information if you're thinking of using bushings, and I don't know what you know and don't.
@@LifeInJambles, that's a lot of great information!
I think that bushings would be a great final choice. My main reason for using ball joints was to be forgiven for the inaccuracies. Even though I jig it all together, welding bends things a little.
I must be honest - the other reason to not having chosen bushings is that I never used bushings;) but maybe it's time;).
Thank you for all the guidance that will make my first experience more informed!
Cheers!
@pedro-neves hey cheers, bud.
Minimizing distortion when welding comes down a lot to jigging things firmly in place and making opposing tacks before you burn things in. I'd recommend a section of tube that fits snugly inside the cups (slightly shorter than the final mounting width of the arm) and a section of tube to space the cups where you want them. Clamp all that together with a bolt, tack your prewelded tube structure to that in several places, then burn it in with short sections on alternating sides to counteract distortion.
Also remember which directions it's okay to have distortion in. If the weld pulls the arm up evenly around the circumference of both cups, functionally nothing has happened.
I'll try to draw up some designs later to show what I mean visually with some vague guesses of dimensions, because I don't have the time or energy to run simulations and I don't know the loads. Just a demonstration of concepts.
@@LifeInJambles thank you so much for the valuable tips! Indeed, taking more time to prepare will lead to better results.
Bravissimo 🎉😂❤
Thank you;)
Fantastic build. Ps. You could have heated up the outer tube, and cooled down the inner tube. That would have made it easier to slide them in to one another.
Thank you so much! I'll certainly have this technique in mind when I have another aluminium tight fit in the future.
Cheers!
These videos are awesome. Do you plan to manufacture a tadpole cargo bike at the end of your research?
Hello, thank you so much! My objective is to create a truly great vehicle to ride while making it Open Source and create knowledge about making vehicles in the process. I think about manufacturing sometimes but it's not clear for me if I'll pursue it for this vehicle or not.
Cheers!
Im a big believer in si3n4 if correctly designed, no grease, no corrosion
Thank you! I understand that si3n4 is the component inside the ball joint in between the ball and the housing, right?
Cheers!
Freeze spray frame tube or put front assembly in oven first or both methods together.
Thanks! I'm reading a few comments now with this suggestion. I will certainly consider it next time I have a similar challenge.
Cheers!
A tiny bit more clearance on the tube as you said would probably be the easiest way to make the parts fit better/easier, besides directly welding the plates to the frame of course 😅 Although that would mean it’s all very permanent and the assembly can’t be removed if changes are necessary… It would also be possible to heat up the outside tube a bit and/or cooling down the inside tube to help create a bit of clearance if there’s no tube available with a slightly bigger diameter, but it’s quite a hassle to do the heating and/or cooling 😅
For the wishbones, I think the ball joints are the best option, they offer a bit of wiggle room plus, they’re used on racecars too.. if they’re good enough for racecars, why not on cargo bikes/trikes right? 😋
Thank you so much! Indeed, welding it in place would be a good option, but because I don't have a good setup to hold the frame, I try to do as much outside the frame and then fit it there. Also, as you said, if I welded it in, the frame would be harder to redo something.
I'm trying to make a cargo trike that is great to ride, so! Racecar components it is!
Cheers!
Great Ideas and great Work! I wish I had those skills and capabilities to build smth similar as a replacement for my car would be welcome.
As you asked for suggestions 🙂
Your welding skills could be improved and / or maybe MIG/MAG would do better than WIG in this case? 🙂
In 10:15 Elastic-Stop-Nuts would do better (at least for the final assembly)
Again: Great work and I wish I could build or afford smth like this
Thank you so much for your kind comment!
My welding skills are indeed the most basic. Actually, this is my first project welding aluminium. I just bought the cheapest TIG AC welder and started. I'm trying to improve bit by bit;)
Elastic stop nuts - You are right. I'll have to replace them at some point.
You are very kind. And as a word of encouragement - I'm using very inexpensive tools, sometimes second hand, and I buy something extra per project and increase my capability over time. And I work in my backyard. In the winter is very cold;) In my next video (I hope you watch) I need more tools than I have (a lathe) so I found a place that rents the use of their lathe in 4 hours slots. I'm just saying this because for those that like to build stuff, it does help with happiness. So, I wish you happiness, either it is building or doing what is best for you.
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves
Thank you helping me understand 😍
I really like your work and the affords (experiments about the best chassis settings f.e.) you make. This is far beyond taking randomly parts, welding or screwing them together and dealing with the outcoming. Instead you research and adjust actively the results 💪
@@radwanderer6165 thank you so much for writing these kind words. Indeed, I'm on a mission to make something truly great to ride and well-made and share with everyone how to make it. I also share the drawings in editable format, so I try to be rigorous and honest about what I'm showing.
Cheers!
Nice.
Thank you;)
Olá Pedro!
You're tilting both wishbones backwards for caster, how is the dive under braking? Why not have at least the bottom wishbone tilting slightly the other way around for anti dive geometry? If you have it further forward in relation to the top arm, the caster can be retained.
Olá! I haven't had front brakes yet. And, in this video I read this comment for the second time that I should have different inclinations in the top and bottom arm. This haven’t even crossed my mind before. On every iteration the trike get better to ride but half way in to the build I already have a big list of improvements;) Thank you so much for this one. I will surely look into it for the next iteration
Cheers!
Extraordinário!
Obrigado!;)
Awesome design! Thank you for bringing us along on this journey.
I have a couple of questions regarding the front assembly. What type of tubing did you use for the links? (size,wall etc..)
And could you provide a link to the ball joints you used or provide information on how to source this "grade" of part?
Hi, thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it;)
The tubing of the wishbone are made of steel with 15 mm OD and 1.5 mm walls (12 mm ID).
You can find links to most of the components in my website: www.powercircuits.nl/home/vehicle-engineering/tadpole-tilting-cargo-trike/open-source-tadpole-tilting-cargo-trike.
Cheers!
you could do your aluminium on the cnc
Absolutely. The parts that I made in this video are not super complex so I did them "manually" but in some cases it's best to use the CNC for sure. In this video I only used it to mill the jig for the wishbones assembly.
Cheers!
I might have drilled a hole each side for welding the threaded bush rods. It will likely hold just fine though.
I did! I skipped showing that, it seems, sometimes I keep it short to not make it boring but I also miss some details. Point taken. Thanks!
Funny... I built a remote controlled hotrod with a VERY similar front suspension a few years back. :)
Aah, nice! I also started with a small 3D printed functional mockup. I'm a few years delayed but I'm getting there;) Big and small iterations until it's truly great to ride;)
Cheers!
Very cool, how about 4 wheel tilting ebike?
@@paolo-1283 maybe one day I'll create a quadricycle ;)
Bearings seem like overkill for such small rotations where a little friction is allowable.They also need to be sealed and serviced. We would use bushings in applications like this for lower cost but we didn’t have possible axial alignment issues. I wonder if the bushing we used would stand up to dirt and shock loads. I think your choice of ball joint was good as robust forgiving and replaceable.
Oops it posted twice
Thank you so much! Definitely makes sense to me. And nice that it is forgiving for my construction ability. If that becomes not an issue, I might try bushings one day.
Cheers!
Hi, cool design! However, It seems that the shock absorber isn't doing anything, since. Is it doing any travel? Thanks
Hello, it definitely does. In my previous build I tested with 40 kg of cargo and just putting the cargo on would make it sag for almost 10 mm: th-cam.com/video/q2GTZd428vM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=dGezqYd_vh_sUmbc&t=114. The pressure on the shock can be adjusted so I can also make it have more or less sag for the default weight.
Right, I was thinking of it with load. Keep up the buids.
@@LuisFerreiraC thank you!
Bushings are much better at handling asymmetric radial loads. Bearings are fine if you get multiple rotations, but when the force is always on one section it may not last long.
Interestingly put, thank you!
You're breaking it down in logical steps and digestible portions.. don't trip..)/*
Seems like ball-joints made the build that much easier, also easier to replace a balljoint then pulling a bearing.. hope they have grease ports.
Sweet build, thanks for sharing!
Thank you so much! Indeed, the build was easier with ball joints. These are the cheapest I could find but if this turns out to be the "final" component, then I'll consider putting in the good stuff.
Cheers!
may of the welded joints could have been held with JB weld = no shrink or out of round problems
Hi, thanks for that. I never tried glue bonding. Are those really that good?
IF aluminium is tight like on 07:54
Put it in oven at 200C for 15 minutes, it will slide on, aluminium expands quite a lot while heated.
Thank you so much! I will definitely have this in mind when I have a tight aluminium fitting in the future.
Cheers!
After going to the trouble of building one, I'd hate to have it stolen. What do you suggest to do to prevent this? Theives carry cordless angle grinders these days.
Indeed, I would be devastated if this gets stolen... I have a lock for the rear wheel and I always park it at hoe during the night so the chances of being stolen are low... I always take the battery with me though.
Cheers!
Will such build allows some kind of self upright or it tilt as easy as a regular 2 wheeler?
I have been experimenting with my own build too
This build is not designed for self upright. I try to make it ride as much as possible like a bike but with extra stability and safety of a tadpole trike.
Would love to see your build. Please share a link if you are publishing it somewhere;)
Cheers!
Will this geometry still work on a 3 wheel kart with the driver almost prone velomobile style
Hello, I believe so! And better due to the low center of gravity.
Cheers!
13:26 You should probably trademark that logo 😊
Hehe, maybe one day;) I like it very much for sure;)
is it possible to eliminate the two middle steering supports and replace with a spacer tube to save weight and work if the supports are among the same inclination?
going further using box steel instead of plates welded to the frame could be cheaper? to make the steering support direct on the frame?
Hi, indeed there are several ways of achieving the same result. My choices are a combination of achieving some design features with my backyard building capabilities but I always look forward to better ways of making it so thanks!
Cheers!
If you add a small line from the circle of your logo, you could have P N. 😉
Hi Mark, nice to hear from you! I'm glad I did not trademark register this one yet;)
Cheers!