When College Is A Huge Mistake
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
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In this video, Chelsea gets candid (and factual) about the real costs of college, weighing the decision to go with the actual return on investment, and how to get "the college experience" - and a good career - without inordinate debt.
Script by Sarah Wilson
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Chelsea, it’s not only the colleges promoting a degree and college costs, it also employers making having a college degree as a prerequisite even for the simplest of employment applications or job descriptions. Do you really need a college degree for general customer service?
Exactly. Even plenty of jobs that supposedly require a specific bachelors path could have their training reduced to a two years associates with minimal educational impact. I work in IT, with plenty of graduates from four years who hold CS, IT, and MIS degrees, and the level of education from those with only an associates is often higher (this may be because the local CCs here use adjunct professors who work full time in the field and are thus more exposed to what is currently going on).
My brother is an accountant for a public accounting firm, and strongly believes that the entire program could be reduced to a two year degree, provided the students come in with the requisite math knowledge.
I felt so scammed by thinking I had to go to college. Experience will always trump a degree. If you list enough experience they will just assume you have a degree. I dropped out after one year of university in 2008 because I couldn't afford it. Did things the old fashioned way. Got a job as min wage "helpdesk" type employee while learning for free on the side. Ten years and a few job switches/promotions later I'm a senior engineer making six figs and work for the university I dropped out of. I call it my revenge arc. 😂
No. I work for a health insurer and I don't have a degree. The companies need to lower their expectations.
Last job I got hired for the primary responsibilities were answering phones and packing boxes for shipping. IIRC a 2-year degree was required and a 4-year was strongly preferred. And of course, the job paid more in line with the actual responsibilities than the degree you supposedly needed to do it. :P
@@baristaTam It's morbidly funny how once you're officially in the working world how irrelevant where you went to school or (in some cases) even what your degree is quickly becomes. A hiring manager once told me that unless you're in an enviroment that's built around the relevance of specific schools and/or degrees (and if you are than you probably know that already), then after you've been working for five or so years to move your education to the bottom of your resume's first page and put experience ahead of it, because your work experience is all most recruiters are really going to pay much attention to.
Being a teenager in the 90's, college was THE way one was expected to go. School was not my strong suit, so I dropped out of community and worked retail sales for a bit. My dad was very disappointed. However, I joined the Navy at age 20 and did two tours. I could have used my experience and gone into the trades, but I didn't want to work around aircraft anymore, and I still couldn't shake the stigma of my upbringing. So, I went back to retail. I'm now 40, and am about to start my final semester to earn a bachelor's degree in finance! Sometimes I feel like I wasted my prime wandering aimlessly. But, back then I just didnt know what I wanted to be when I "grew up". Hopefully I can catch up. At least I dont have any college debt thanks to the GI Bill.
I personally think it would benefit people to work before going to school. This way they appreciate education more and realize that there's a life outside of school. An 18 year old has never known life without school.
@nimravus Same here. The ROI of a college education kicked in when doors started closing by 40 and all of my competitors were younger and had degrees. I'm now 45, two years away from completing a bachelor's degree... while working full-time, raising teenagers, AND putting aside money for their tuition. Had I gone to college at 18, tuition would have been cheaper and my loans would have been paid off by now. Also, due to all of my adult responsibilities, I can only go part-time... which greatly reduces my financial aid eligibility and eliminates eligibility for almost all scholarships and grants.
I don't think you wasted your prime. Your best years are ahead of you.
@@rachelvasquez7826 I couldn't agree more. I entered college immediately at 18 where I floundered for several semesters before "giving up" to join the workforce. I hated the boring aspect of adult life but having work and life experience was essential to my appreciation for more difficult things like college. I see a lot of people miss that experience until they;re applying for jobs with a bachelors, they feel like children in that way.
If you have at least a month of your gi bill left, you should be able to attain further education for free with VR&E too
This may be an unpopular opinion here but I really think it’s terrible that a college education in the US has become so expensive and so tied to career outcomes. Higher education shouldn’t just be about the degree and shouldn’t put people in debt. It can have such profound impact on people’s skills when it comes to critical thinking, media literacy, personal development and just general knowledge. I wish more governments would recognize that and would make higher education more accessible to anyone who is willing to put in the time and effort, without ruining them financially.
All education should be free.
Now that college has in many ways replaced highschool (as a kind of 'minimum standard') it should be equally accessible.
Even if not every degree is directly applicable to the business world it is beneficial for the whole country when good education is widely available (employees with more general knowledge will be more productive, better able to combine information from different fields)
I think instead, they need to make high school harder and makes kids take that more seriously. There's no reason most people can't learn a lot of that stuff in high school.
The US government does recognize this fact and that’s why education has been allowed to be so expensive
yes!!! and that's what we get at European universities- all of what you said- almost for free.😊
In my country higher education is free, of course there are also private universities you can choose from. But our State University system is really good, its engineering degrees are worldwide renowned. And we don't pay much more taxes than you do, I wonder why you can't have public options.
Every job I have had since college I could have done at 18 with no higher education. Retail, bank teller, office assistant, and recently promoted to Office Admin. My degree was not worth the money but I am grateful for the classes I took for my major because they did make me a better artist (even though now I could learn most of those lessons for free on TH-cam). The most valuable thing I received from college was the people who are still in my life and the social work classes I took just to get myself to the required number of credits to graduate- those really opened my eyes to a lot of issues in the world that I had never understood before or possibly even heard of.
Another tip, especially if you're young and unsure of what you might want to do with life, is just to check the *offerings* at your local community college. Some years back I did this just for curiosity and found a whole program for working on railroads. This could be one of the up and coming fields, especially if the federal powers that be decide it's time to actually invest in rail travel.
Isn't the average age of engineers like 50 too. Going to be some openings if that's the case.
On this channel we're obviously going at things from a financial perspective. While that's an important point, I think there's a bit to say about studying for the sake of knowledge. Our society tends to devalue things that don't directly make money (aka allow a capitalist to make more money off your labour than he's paying you), no matter how important those things might be to a healthy society. A society needs librarians, historians, sociologists. Yet, we keep telling people those paths "just aren't worth it" and "they should get a finance/IT/etc degree" instead.
Now, I get how insanely expensive everything is now (especially in the US) and how just day-to-day survival is hard for huge parts of our generation (I'm a millennial). When you're just scraping by it's easy to follow the money.
Maybe it'd be better for everyone if we made sure that people could do the jobs society needs to function and live with dignity no matter what field they're in, rather than encouraging people to chase the money in a system that's got us into this situation in the first place.
PS: I've been here since almost the start so I know your views tend to be more in line with mine than not. Take this as a well-intentioned rant on my part, please.
Hear, hear👏
Definitely agree!
A society where everyone only learns the skills they need to do their jobs and educating yourself beyond that is considered a waste seems extremely depressing.
A librarian at a basic public library should NOT require a masters degree. I could see it requiring a two year certification program from a community college, that you could easily afford by working nights while living with your parents, for people who want to work in senior level positions at large archives or university libraries, but no more than that! For the average public library management job, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to work your way up to it by starting out in entry level positions, like checking people out and filing books and stuff like that. That's how it used to be years ago. That whole library degree thing is rediculous.
@@SomeRPGFan Yes, isn't that exactly the society we live in now? When I have to weigh my drive to learn against the potential ROI?
There is so much about the American college system that absolutely baffles me as an Irish person. It's insanely expensive, the whole concept of Greek life is confusing as hell, the fact that you have to continue studying basic subjects from secondary education instead of focusing on the course you actually signed up to do... it all seems counterintuitive and just plain weird lol. I have great sympathy for anyone trying to get through such a nonsensical system
It is very peculiar. Makes you wonder if there is a better alternative
It’s actually simple. America hates its low and middle class citizens. You have to trick it into letting you advance.
@@samuelbeatsminecraft2049 I mean, college in Ireland isn't perfect (far from it) but I think the basic concept of only having classes that are related to your chosen topic is a good start!! It feels not only silly but also classist that basic subjects are still required in American colleges - surely the people who don't go to college for whatever reason should still learn the things that are being taught as formative information in college? We also don't have Greek life here, and it is less expensive to go to college (though the cost of rent has skyrocketed recently which has made things a lot harder).
It is perplexing to the common American, too.
Part of it is the fact that high school largely does not prepare a student for a career. A large majority of students graduating high school don’t know what they want to so because they have little exposure in high school. That’s why college in the US often takes 4-6 years. Students take time changing their major.
My friend did the whole nine yards for college. She went to a private college upstate. Her whole tuition was covered but then she still came out with $57k in debt, all for room and board. I went to a community college then transferred to a four year college and I didn't incurred a dime in loans for undergrad. They got me for grad school but for what I made right out of college, the investment was more than worth it.
So, I got my most recent job because of my military experience. I have an Associates degree, but I’m going back this fall for my Bachelors degree. And as a 40+ year old woman, I MUST say the textbooks and online homework platforms are a COMPLETE scam! I’m spending over $500 out of pocket (because I refuse to take out loans) JUST do homework?! How is this not included in the price of tuition? And why is temporary access to an online platform so damn expensive?! And WHY are these schools requiring this?!
Your paying part of the salary of the teacher, the credits, etc. It's obvious that it probably would be a lot less if there was a better system for it but nope.
If you have an associates degree, you already paid tuition and books separately at your community college. This isn't news.
I found that going to community college for the associates then going for a government job seemed to work amazingly well for me in my area.
As someone who went to a trade/vocational high school (graduated with a CNA license and an EMT license) and then went to a fancy college & grad program, I approve this message! I have friends who made great lives for themselves using the certifications we got in high school: good pay, health insurance, union, opportunities for growth/higher certifications, etc.
I’m really fortunate to have degrees that have actually benefitted me professionally & to be nearly done paying off my student loans, but the cost of higher ed in this country is way too high.
Not finishing college (quit after a single semester) turned out to be one of the best things I ever did. Had so much resistance everywhere around me from family and friends. Sure i had to work my ass off and work a lot of jobs I didn’t really want but who doesn’t .
👏
I don't. Because I went to college.
I wish recommendations towards the community college path would include actually looking at how well those credits transfer to in state schools. Not all states are equal in how transferable those credits are and end up requiring more than 4 years to complete so the opportunity cost may make it not necessarily a cheaper path.
Very true
Very true; one of my good friends basically got cheated from a community college and had to complete his bachelors in 6 years
@@Atmviolayeah, same for me too.
In addition, per credit, the community college in my town is more expensive per credit than the state school because they can't gouge for other things like sports/room and board, etc.
Absolutely! Our community college has an excellent program connecting with the state (NJ) 4 year colleges, so community college students lose few or no credits. Some private colleges in our area also tell us which credits can transfer, and which can’t. And some community colleges do a better job in advising students than 4 year colleges.
I really appreciate that you aren't just looking at the averages but also at entry-level jobs and at graduates who didn't even make it to entry-level jobs.
It pisses me of when career-paths ('just go to trade school') get justified by something like 1 outlier plumber becoming a millionaire (typically by employing 50 plumbers who are not millionaires)
The millionaire tradesman is not an outlier. Next time you are on a job site, look around and see how many plumbers and electricians are over 50. Almost none, because they are retired, playing golf and drinking beer.
I majored in Art History at a mid tier college in the 90s. I have a well paying corporate job in tech, and I recognize how insanely lucky I was to be able to spend college studying a subject I am genuinely passionate about, even if it doesn’t directly relate to my current job.
I’m currently job hunting. I’ve noticed a new trend in job applications that say “bachelors degree” or equivalent experience. It’s discouraging
As an older millennial who went to university back around the turn of the century, I'm just flabbergasted at how much the sales pitch around the "college experience" has exploded in the last generation, and even just the last few years. Of course we were excited to head off and meet new people and party, but as I recall, it was simply understood as a background reality of attending the school that you would choose for other, unrelated, reasons. Beyond the handful of university events throughout the year, and regularly-available frat parties, there wasn't anything approximating a social calendar of "must attend" socializing or any such thing.
i think your expectations are warped here when it comes to socializing at universities. people are talking about the opportunity to socialize with working anthropologists at anthropology clubs and things like that, not hang out with beyonce and chat about her songs.
@@perfectallycromulentliterally no one wants to hang out with an anthropologist. LoL
@@Preservestlandry i see you celebrate ignorance. i don't think we have much to talk about then.
I teach high school, and I tell my students all the time that there are alternate routes to education/job training. My students tend to feel a 4-year degree is necessary, whether through peer/parental pressure, job/career prerequisites, or other things. Even once you have that 4-year degree, though, there is pressure to continue to invest in higher education, even though the return on investment isn't necessarily good. Where I teach, the upper levels of my subject are dual-enrollment classes. High school teachers teach a college-level syllabus and curriculum, and the student gets credit through the local community college. Excellent! Except, with my bachelor's degree, I'm not qualified to teach the dual-enrollment classes. I need a master's in my subject area (despite the fact that I taught the AP level before it went DE without a problem). Twenty years into my career, doing summer classes for a master's in a niche subject area and having to pay for room and board as well as the classes over several years feels like more trouble than it's worth, especially since the jump on the pay scale isn't that much.
I also encourage my students to take some of the career & technical classes our high school offers, again, even though my subject is considered a "college track" one. Why limit oneself? I have students who have helped offset the costs of their college education because they've earned certifications in trades and worked while going to college part-time. It takes a little longer, but they have less debt and more life experience.
The college experience is what you make it. My 4-year college experience wasn't the "typical" one, but I enjoyed it greatly. It wasn't for everyone, and the "typical" experience isn't either. It would be lovely if people were encouraged to try alternate routes more often.
omg. it's so expensive... no wonder, more and more American students want to get a bachelor degree in Germany (or other European countries)
I would do that but a lot of good jobs here in North America won't recognize European degrees. Part of the gatekeeping they do to hoard all of the tuition money to their universities only.
Also, please dont forget there is a language requirement which is C1 basically fluency in many bachelor degree programs - even here in Switzerland. This is a massive block for most!
In Germany you need a B2, I am making my master and I am taking it in english.
@@icantwiththisuntil they discover they can pay less for the European graduates because they are not saddle with a 50k student debt and get exactly the same results
Got my master's in Spain for the same reason. I was already dubious of the worth of a master's and couldn't justify going deeply into debt for one. It was in Spanish, so as someone said, that's a barrier for most.
i turned down an ivy league (90k/year) for a full ride from a public state university and this is why i don't regret it...
Oh trust me u don’t because I know plenty of people who went to private colleges and regret not going to a state college they could afford
This video should address "when college is a huge mistake nowadays". For most millennials growing up in the 90s and early 00's it was ingrained from elementary school up until high school that college was the way to succeed. One of the most infuriating things for millennials is hearing Boomers and even some Gen X lambast millennials for having gone to college and not picking up a trade or working instead of going to college because they were literally the ones who hammered into millennials up until 2008 that college was the only way to go. We can't go back now but the real question is, how does one move forward after years of college propaganda esp when many jobs still require a bachelor's degree.
In fairness, I’m pretty sure those same boomers didn’t anticipate the cost that college would be by the time their kids went, and also didn’t anticipate that their kids would want to major in something such as marketing or business, or hotel management, or art. Which, when considering the investment, is NOT a great choice to spend $100k on.
Thanks for the video, Chelsea! For me, my bachelors and masters degrees were worth it, because they opened the door to many opportunities that I would not have had otherwise. I’m excited to say that I am starting my dream job next month, and that would not have been possible without my masters degree+bachelors degree at a high-ranking school.
HOWEVER, I am a firm believer that the piece of paper at the end is not what’s meaningful (so many people have these degrees, as you said), but rather, how you spend you’d time in your degree program is what matters. I saw so many undergrad students partying all weekend or joking about how they “wrote” their English essay with Chat GPT for a book they never read. I couldn’t help but wonder why they were wasting their time in college in the first place if they’re not gonna even put in the work to learn. When you’re in college, take advantage of the vast wealth of resources, such as the research libraries, career centers, organizations, student employment, networking events, etc. To me, that is what makes college a worthwhile investment.
Another dimension to this is that the high cost of college tuition prevents adults from retraining and trying to forge new career paths, or even just taking classes at the state university to maintain their learning and education. That leads to a poorer society if we limit growth to just a small group in of teens and early twenty somethings. It keeps adults stuck in fields they don't like for fear of more debt.
Thank you for pointing out the need for training in the trades. In high-school back in the 90s college was being pushed hard! But now the trades are lacking in up and comers as the old guard is aging out and retiring. And such a large portion of people that did go to college weren't able to get the dream jobs they were promised and are now saddled with enormous debt. A lot of people are stuck behind the 8 ball financially, when they could've learned a trade that they can take anywhere.
Dude! This. I studied film and I have not gotten one film job after 4 years after graduation. I genuinely don’t have that many skills to offer. My university was the teach yourself type school. I hate them with every bones in my body. Lol. 😅
I had to go to trade school just to relearn film lighting. I have been embarrassed at job interviews due to my lack of knowledge. Luckily things are looking up for me. I have more experience. So more people are taking me a bit seriously.
I worked full time while attending a traditional 4 year college. It was grueling but also the only way I could afford to attend because I was self supporting. I graduated at 29. This already meant I was 8 years older than most of my fellow graduates and less likely to be chosen for entry roles in my profession. Every job I have had since then pays less than I was earning upon graduation, even though I subsequently attended law school, which I had to quit because I could no longer afford it or borrow more. I will be paying student loans likely until I die. The importance of college is a lie. 90% of those I have worked for held less education than I did, but outearned and outranked me. College for those young people who are getting help paying for it and will graduate in their early twenties with little work experience, and only then is it entirely worth it. Non-traditional routes are far less worth it. I wish I had not wasted my time and damaged my finances permanently. Great topic!
I think employers look at face and the older the face looks, the more experience there's expected to be locked into the brain. For the lowest paying jobs, the older the face looks, the louder the "what are you doing here" becomes.
@@michaeln.2383 Except that I look as young as they do. And in some cases younger. But my resume and abilities gave me away in terms of age. I really think there are many insecure mid level managers who waste their time worrying about the perceived threats of mature adult employees and are protecting their interests by hiring green young privileged candidates instead of those who would most benefit the companies they work for.
As usual, great take Chelsea. I also desperately wanted “the college experience” but instead went to community college and transferred to a 4-year, all while living at home. I have significantly less debt than many of my peers. And now looking back, I probably should have worked for a bit before college because I was utterly lost and changed majors about 10 times. It’s a shame we’ve disregarded trade schools and college is seen as the only respectable thing to do after high school.
In Europe we actually skip college for the experience. Many rich European countries have a gap year to have fun and travel between school and college. College is actually for a job. And many jobs wont consider you if you do not have a degree. Funny enough, after earning Bachelor and two MBAs i still earn less than a good plumber. So professional schools are really something to consider. On the personal note, my degree did pay off and i do not regret it.
7 years of University gave me a B.A. and an M.A. in a field with very little direct application. I thoroughly enjoyed Uni and didn't really have a worry about money since higher education is free in my country. Through an internship I got a decent office job.
BUT
I am worried about the future. There is a trend for administration jobs to be digitalised and generally rationalised. Given my degree and general training it would be hard for me to find a job outside business administration.
I wanted the “college experience”. Almost went to a 4 year for my “generals”. A family friend talked me out of it. So I went to a 2 year. My school had a apartments with roommates. (Which is what I wanted for some reason, still enjoyed it). It was also farther away from my hometown. There was not sports. But it still fulfilled my wants. Yes I took out loans for college. I had no money. But significantly less loans then I would in a 4 year. I got a very general associates degree. Got a job and then got a different job in a different field. I now love this field and have decided to go back to community college. So I can move up in my career. My company will pay for my program’s core classes.
I’ve been noticing that more community colleges are offering similar 4 year college experiences. Yes that would cost more. But most of these community colleges are also trade schools. Trade jobs are in high demand and pay a decent wage.
What kind of community college did you go to that had its own student apartments? I thought only four year schools did that kind of thing. Did they also have sororities or fraternities? Because I heard of community colleges having them in the 70's, but they don't now, as far as I know.
In central Minnesota. Technically they are considered off campus apartments. However, it’s through the college’s foundation. So at the same time on campus. You had to be a college student to live there. The apartment is across the street from campus. We shared our parking lot with the rest of the campus. But we had our designated spaces. And financial aid covered rent. I guess another apartment building, like the one I lived in, is being built now.
Mine did not have Greek life. At the time mine didn’t have sports. Now they do. Lots of clubs to join though. This school is one of the top community colleges in the country. And a known well known law enforcement program. (I’m practically giving away the name of the school) I was there 4 years ago. I enjoyed going to school there. Nothing but great things to say about this school.
Sorry about the novel comment, but this is a topic I feel strongly about.
1. Outside of a few specific programs, college generally doesn't prepare you for the real world or for the job market. That's not its purpose.
2. If you have to take out thousands of dollars in loans for for a 4 year program, you're better off just not going. You will learn lots more in the workforce, even if it's at McDonald's.
3. Small, private liberal arts colleges are excellent for people who plan to go on to master's or doctorate degrees and pursue careers in academia, which a lot of alumni from my alma mater did. If that isn't your plan going in, I don't recommend the Lyons and Hendrixes of the postsecondary world. (I went to a small, liberal arts college)
4. A lot of schools will try to sell high school students on "the college experience" and how theirs is so much more unique than every other school's. This is bunk. "The college experience" is whatever you make it and is present at every university in America.
4.5. They'll also imply, either overtly or covertly, that their school is the place to be if you want to make connections that will lead to success in your field. This is also bullshit. There are many, many other opportunities to "schmooze" that don't require attending a specific college or university.
5. Don't feel obligated to go to the "best" college, or college at all, just because you are a gifted or smart student. See #1. Education isn't the great equalizer it once was. Just because one does well in high school doesn't mean they will continue to thrive in college. Like I said, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I can tell you from experience that it's a trap.
I was a peer advisor at my university’s engineering school. I told every student I ever mentored to have an exit strategy and don’t just get degrees for the sake of it. So many had zero idea what their major actually looked like in the real world and what jobs their degree would offer. Gave a lot of students a rude but necessary awakening.
I attended college during evenings for my undergraduate and graduate degree while working full-time days and have no regrets.
You are so articulate, I would have assumed you had a Masters or PhD. It's really interesting you mentioned Finance degrees as an example. I majored in Finance but got it from my home state university which is nothing compared to the top business schools. Even though I did academically well and interned for a global company, I still ended up at an entry level position as a teller. I job hopped several positions to get where I'm at as an associate position and feel so behind. The good thing is I didn't have any student loans. My co-worker who happens to be a childhood friend of mine has his masters from a private school. I assume he makes at least 70% more than me but after taxes and paying off his monthly student loans, he doesn't have much disposable income in comparison to me which should be astonishing since he has a harder job with higher credentials. I kind of regret pursuing and completing my degree because I felt there was no returns and actually a loss considering I could have just worked entry-level after high school to get cash handling experience, become a teller and moved to the position I am currently in without wasting time and money in college.
In most cases, a college degree is not required to do the job, but to get the job.
We need to improve our K-12 education. A part of the reason college is deemed necessary is that it's the only way we can confirm a base level of knowledge and literacy, unfortunately.
I definitely used college (the first time) as a way to leave my dysfunctional home after graduation. With me having little life experience and no support system (by nature of being in said dysfunctional household) I did the best with what I knew. Now my second college degree attempt is happening via WGU ( online, and _non-profit_ ) and it's much cheaper. Almost done with both the degree and paying off the student debt from the previous attempt 🙌🏾
Companies want you to have a degree but don't want to pay you enough to afford a degree. Arizona State and most state colleges were around $1200 a semester back in the early 2000's because taxes subsidized the rest. Those subsidies went away thanks to Conservatives. Since many states have very low or no income tax for individuals, those subsidies were paid for with primarily corporate taxes. Racism combined with cutting taxes ended low cost degree programs. The actual cost of a degree hasn't changed at Arizona State for over 20 years. Out of Pocket + Subsidies were about $10,000 per year in the early 2000's. Tuition is still about $10,000 per year except students pay the whole amount themselves.
Corporations don't want to pay taxes to pay for the education their workers need and they don't want to pay the wages workers need to pay for their education.
It's a messed up system. Vote blue.
Not worth it unless the career REQUIRES IT! Sincerely a theatre major . Tell your friends.
Alternatives for the theatre kids on here, if it’s a BFA find the cheaper schools with great opportunities. Don’t worry about that fancy name or the fact that you auditioned and got in.
Study the craft at training institutes that aren’t connected to universities.
Just start working, you don’t need a dregree and then take a class or a workshop when you’re able to save up money.
What’s being taught at universities when it comes to theatre is not gatekept info you can research and work your way up nobody cares about the degree.
depends on so many things. My high quality (and free) university gave me more than I could ever list. It depends on a lot of factors.
Watching this was so validating. I commuted the entire time i was a student and also transfered from a community college. I always felt left out of the "college experience." But I also can recognize that I have a quarter of the debt someone else would have from the same uni.
Thank you
I lived on campus for my bachelors program, went right back for my masters (and commuted for that). Walked out with $50K of debt. Luckily, I made enough money and managed to get my CPA license despite never getting into public accounting, and paid it all off in four years. Getting rid of those loans as fast as I did was one of the best decisions I ever made. And it makes it easy to remember my college experience fondly.
I'm a mid-GenXer, my experience was a bit different. I've also done a bit of everything: gap year, community college, small liberal arts school, trade school and grad school. I have grad school loans, but nothing like the debt loads many young undergrads carry. The 100/200 level classes I took at the community college were just as good, if not better, than those I took at a four-year university. (*side note: I experienced some of the best teaching at the CC and trade school, some of the worst in grad school). I don't want to diminish the value of my liberal arts education; I learned how to write, I developed critical thinking skills, and how to interact with different people. That said, if I'd been a bit more confident, I probably would have pushed back on my parents and pursued trade school from the start (I really like working with my hands but that was not encouraged). But I also think it's vital to have a population that has a basic understanding of and appreciation for the arts, philosophy, economics, history, literature, and science. To do that you just need access to a decent library and intellectual curiosity. Community colleges and trade schools are the unsung heroes of education. Is it the same as the "college experience" that we see in movies or hear about from our parents? No, but times are different. There is no ONE path to success in life. I wish I had been braver to have had some more adventures as a younger person. Life is hard enough, don't put yourself behind the financial 8-ball before you even get started with heavy school debt. There are good alternatives, and they can be just as exciting!
You said it perfectly...if you don't get into the top universities..then please go to community college... You will have the same experience... If you get into to universities the course doesn't matter
Great video. Having worked in higher education for the 6 years, i have seen students struggle to get a job without a bachelor’s degree. Offices I have worked in even didn’t interview people if they didn’t have a bachelor’s degree. It was just a way to screen candidates. It was arbitrary sometimes what the degree was.
I have also seen students get a high return on investment depending on the major they choose. However, I have seen students and family take out huge amounts of money for degrees and graduate degrees they don’t even know if they will use.
Get a degree if you think it will help you with your career goals. Otherwise it may not be worth it in some cases.
A very good option for some students are community colleges that also have dorms or apartments. The tuition is affordable, especially if you stay in-state, but the dorms allow for the "college experience". Not everyone can stay home with their family after high school, so having affordable options is key.
Also, in my home state, many trade programs are housed in community colleges and some offer hybrid associates and trade degree plans so students earn an associates but also have the trade training.
Or maybe even better maybe encourage students to live together with roommates in college towns that can be a lot cheaper
College isn't a huge mistake. College in the US is likely a major financial mistake, more often than not.
Please do consider getting an education still, but from a foreign country. Plenty of amazing education is to be had in our global society.
How do you go about studying abroad?
Well said!
not for computer science, or majors that getting a degree is actually worth it in.
Totally agree. I went to community college for the first year and a half, then transferred to a university and lived off campus. I also worked part time through all of my college years. I was sad at the time that I was "missing out" but being able to quickly pay off my student debt after graudating was so much more worth it to me in the long run.
I went to college in 2013. Graduated after four years. In that time, I had two internships, student work and unique projects that helped me get a stable job a few months after graduating. I don't regret it at all, especially because my college was super helpful with need-based student aid. As long as you got accepted based on their rigorous criteria, they did an amazing job to help it be more affordable for you. I paid off my loans in 3 years.
Best decision ever - but I'm also dedicated to academics. If you're not willing/able to set aside the social "fun" part of college when you need to buckle down, it's probably not for you. It's just too bad college degrees are required for most jobs now.
As a GWU grad, while I definitely benefited from being in DC (I planned on moving to the area early on and have remained here since), I can't in good conscience ever recommend GWU because of thr cost alone.
I graduated in 2014 with two degrees in engineering and it took me a year to land an engineering job. Entry level jobs wanting years of experience is no joke.
your experience with a pen1s pump does NOT make an engineer
@@CEWIII9873 wtf dude
@@LiamRappaport maybe if you would not have spent so much time with your pen1s pump, you could have found a job sooner!
Or are you a janitorial "engineer?"
@@CEWIII9873 ok boomer. not surprising coming from someone with the worst MASH character as their pfp
@@LiamRappaport "the worst!"
HA!
I guess your favorite was ol' "ferret face" Frank Burns?
I HAD to go to CC back in the day for my dad to make sure he could pay it, he paid for my books with piggybank change! Things have changed though and I didn't get to go back until more recently (still a few years back), and I went for an Education Degree as this was the quickest path w/ having an arts degree. I wet for a year and a half and owed about $`18k, It's now just under $11k.
I highly recommend trade schools vs. traditional schools. Your trade, plumber, electrician, mechanic, etc. will always be needed. Or you can do what I did... Army pays for degrees as high as Masters.
If you are from the US I highly recomment studying college in Mexico. The most expensive university costs $1,500 USD monthly and the campus is huge and modern. There are Many degrees that offer programs just in english
Engineering often brought up as a degree that actually pays…which is true but not everyone can do that. But many more can! Lots of problems in the world to solve
Shouldn’t need a four year degree though, engineering should be able to be an apprenticeship with night classes
I would absolutely do an engineering apprenticeship.
My program made me start at the local community college and transfer over to the university the next year. I was SO pissed off and embarrassed about it, but I ended up saving about $9000 that way
Wow 😯 This is a great analysis of the value of a college education. Today’s world is so much different than my era 45 years ago. I did benefit from the social college experience resulting in my circle of best friends whom I continue to see all these years later. Networking helped me one time when a classmate help me get a job that lead to a 30 year career. I studied what I loved which happened to be science and engineering and I was able to graduate with no debt. I worked as an engineer for the University of California and could retire with a traditional pension. My degrees were well worth it in the old system.
I saw the value of college begin to decline in the 1990’s as costs increased. I’ve also been alarmed at the marketing of a 4 year degree to everyone. College is not for everyone. As an engineer I could see plenty of career paths as a machinist, technician, or computer aided designer that don’t require a college degree. It is sad to see the US educational system come to this state of dysfunction.
College is only worth it if you plan to pursue healthcare, law, or any field that requires a license. If it doesn’t, do certifications/bootcamps instead like a coding boot camp etc
Even law is a little sketchy…they have some of the highest rates of unemployment and underemployment across the board. It’s atrocious
After high school I went into the Marines. Many of my fellow Marines didn't go to college when they got out. I did. I'm doing better (financially) than all the guys I'm still in touch with.
Also, compared to my high school friends who didn't go to college, I also make more than them.
I graduated undergrad and grad school in a total of 5 years with no debt. I studied abroad, was involved in many campus organizations, and made many memories/friends. I was blessed with very cheap rent, many scholarships/assitantships, and wonderful part-time jobs- even when I was working 30-50 hours a week on top of school. I never would have gotten these degrees if debt had been attached to them! Many of my former corporate coworkers had $50k+ in debt for a job that was paying $70k. One coworker has $98k in debt for a communications degree...
Ugh, the commute. Depending on time of day, or even day of the week, what should've been a 30 minute drive tops sometimes ballooned up to 2 hours of sitting in traffic - _one way._
1984 University of Arizona, tuition: $1200 a semester for 12-18 Credits. Books: $300 Student
Medical Insurance: $25 a month
What happened???
Fully agree with Chelsea! I didn't have a typical college experience either but I still had fun and saved lots of money! I went to a community college, then a 4-year college that I commuted to. I took fewer classes at a time so I could work and pay more easily. My part-time job at the time offered tuition reimbursement and encouraged growth within the company. There are ways to do it less expensively. Also, your education is what you make of it - take it seriously while you are there and learn as much as you can.
There's such a thing as over education as well. We need more people in trade. TSMC, thr company that makes semiconductors for companies like Intel, Apple and Samsung, had to halt plans to build a GigaFAB in Arizona because of a lack of skilled labor. We don't have a functional apprenticeship and vocational training system in the US. People think Blue Collar work is messy or whatever but that's an example of where it's actually quite clean but still requires specialized training to function. The fact that this kind of training has been outsourced to for-profit institutions is largely the issue. I went to a school like that. Didn't get to finish. Feds shut it down and left me without my pharmacy tech license and no alternative to complete my program.
College is only useful for certain things. I think helping young people figure out what they could see themselves doing for the next 20 years early could be helpful. My kid already knows she wants to be a veterinarian after having 4-H exposure. She's 10. More of that sort of thing younger would be great. We had career fairs and stuff when I was a kid. What happened to all of that?
I always talk to people who express interest in going to college and even if they have great grades in High School. Go to Community College UNLESS you have a Full-Ride via Sports, Academics, or the Military (Rotc scholarship or GI Bill) and take some time out of your schooling to put yourself in work Experience that’s relevant to your goals.
I graduated in 95 with a BA. I gotta say I had a great time from age 18-23 (late 80s early 90s) but college had really little to do with it. I had a great time cause I was young and everything was new. In the end I got very little out of college (communications degree). I figured out before graduating the whole thing was a business. I skipped out on the ceremony, had them mail me my degree which i put into a file cabinet and moved forward creating my career. Would i do it again....probably not at these prices. I walked away with $3K in debt...good thing because the education wasn't worth much more.
I wholeheartedly agree most jobs should only require certifications.
As a physician i don’t think my bachelor degree helps me do my job well yet it was required to get into my medical school. Waste of time and money.
If a degree is required for a job, that job should have a higher minimum wage and higher wages across the board. I bet many companies would no longer require that useless degree.
When I hear people talk about college as something that was forced down their throat, I find that odd. I guess not growing up in the middle class leads to less exposure to certain ways of thinking, but to me, college is more than just job outcomes. You can really grow a lot from the different experiences and from being on your own.
I remember kids from other towns talking about how they had internships in crazy places (like science labs, etc.) during high school because of their parents. In college, I had the opportunity to have similar or better internships, and that helped shape future decisions and understanding of things (but I wouldn't have gotten those chances if not for being in a particular environment).
Education should really be about educating yourself for the better, not just about money. That seems like a very middle or upper middle class understanding of things, and I am curious about how people were exposed to that kind of pressure growing up?
Unless, maybe your family was constantly telling you school was important because that happens a lot with certain minority groups.
I’m a dental hygienist. I went to ASU for 2 years on scholarship and got all my pre-reqs for the dental program. Then another 2 years in dental hygiene school. Total was about $18,000. I make 6 figures but being a healthcare provider is extremely difficult and not for the weak. Most of us want out because we are exploited by greedy dentists. I work 10-12 hour days and use my body. I’m in pain all the time and never get to pee or eat. It’s been detrimental to my physical and mental health. This is no longer a profession I can endorse. I’m currently working on an unrelated degree to get out.
i don't know why so many people think degrees are a requirement/prerequisite for entry level employment. i've been doing the jobs college grads THINK require a degree since I was 20 years old because I question what people tell me and think for myself. turns out yOU DON'T NEED A DEGREE. you don't need a degree because what hiring managers want is experience...and people who go to college spend 4 years learning to navigate a bureaucracy that is bizarre and does not at all reflect the real world. so they amass knowledge but very few real world skills that employers need *more* than they need knowledge. people *think* they need that degree, but what they really need is someone holding their hand through life telling them what to do every step of the way. independent people figure it out and because we don't care about STATUS (which is all a degree is truly worth) we often earn as much or higher than the college educated without amassing ANY debt
In a world driven by data and algorithms, education is reduced to the collection of degrees to accumulate a score high enough to convince an employer to take a risk hiring you. Now many entry level jobs are requiring a master degree since no company wants to invest training employees. You must train yourself.
Community college is worth it just for the transfer scholarships. I earned a $16k transfer scholarship by just going to a university my community college partnered with.
I’m sad I still had to take a loans but not anything near what would’ve been had I gone right out of high school!
As I have seen it, the gross majority of the high cost of college is down to state tax cuts taking funding from the Universities they are supposed to support. Which has a double benefit to those getting their taxes cut- they can now loan that money to students- saving in taxes and gaining profits. It's pretty disgusting to me that states have cut school funding that much since I went to school a long time ago. Education is a key part of expanding the economy- from K to graduate school/research.
BTW, the "college experience" of sports, partying, Greek life, etc- has not really changed at all. It was that back when I went to school +30 years ago- and it was always hanging over your budget when you wanted pizza instead of dorm food.
It’s so sad that we have to go through this, when other countries offer college for very low rates or even free.
I dont think it was sold to me as an experience, though that was almost 15 years ago.
It was necessary training for my field of work... still a scam.
Took me about 10 years to get what the school said id be paid from the start.
It all depends on what you want to do with your life. Some degrees are just not worth it.
Hey, Chelsea, I really appreciate how you dive into the complexities of financial decisions like whether or not college is a good investment. Your breakdown of the costs, benefits, and the changing job landscape is so insightful.
Given the changing job market and the various paths available, how would you suggest someone evaluate whether college is the right choice for them? Are there certain factors or questions they should consider to make an informed decision about pursuing a degree or exploring other options? Thanks for shedding light on this topic!
I agree @dotpenji! Chelsea, your insights on financial decisions, like the value of college, are eye-opening. I'd love to hear your advice on evaluating college choices given the changing job landscape. Your expertise is invaluable!
Your comprehensive analysis of the expenses, advantages, and the dynamic job market is exceptionally enlightening.
I agree! Evaluating whether college is the right choice for someone is indeed a crucial decision. Ultimately, there's no one-size-fits-all answer, and the decision should be based on an individual's unique circumstances and goals. It's important to research, seek advice from mentors or career counselors, and carefully weigh the pros and cons before making a choice.
The decision should align with your individual goals, circumstances, and values.
Indeed, Choosing college depends on your unique goals.
As I've gotten older, I can be honest and say I ultimately paid primarily for the college expereince and less the actual education. I went to a good school and I liked my school, but there was very little in my courses I couldn't have learned on my own time with a library card. When people push back on college, a lot of those supremely invested in the concept of higher education act like it's necessary to produce well-rounded members of society or to "teach you how to learn." It isn't, and that mentality is supremely dismissive of those who can't go to college for various reasons or goes into a trade which more and more proves to be the unquestionably smarter financial decision for most.
I've long believed that college will eventually have to have a reckoning with itself, which will hopefully snowball into the job market. Student loan debt is too big of an issue now for them to brush aside and if people are practically prohibited from attending 4-years due to cost, the university will have to have an honest examination on what students are getting for their money. Because tax payers will DEFINITELY have something to say if said 4-years think they can ask for more funds from the government to make up for reduced attendance.
In my experience community college is a great first step but the university you want to transfer to will usually pull some bs and only accept half the credits you took. I would only recommend transferring within the same state if that’s your plan to avoid them trying to gouge you out of thousands of dollars to take 2 bs classes because you need “electives”
Depends on your major and how well you are liked by important people.
I think it's a mistake to go to college for any reason other than bc you love learning, want to learn to think critically, and want to become educated. If you're not truly invested in THAT, you likely won't be as valuable a graduate or employee later on. It's not just earning a piece of paper, but L-earning so as to become as competent an individual in your chosen profession for society's sake.
30 years ago my employer at the time said I'd need a bachelor's degree to get promoted. I found another job but also started college classes. Ten years later I got my bachelor's degree. Never would I be denied a promotion because of not having a degree. Would the things I learned in college help in that earlier job? Not really. I learned more on the job. In college I learned how to write papers and take tests. Little practical information.
College degrees are supposed to promote an educated populace, and for a while, incentives were aligned with that. The idea degrees were job training took over more & more & now it's not affordable for many, which has serious social consequences well outside the need for educated workers.
I really think the most pointed thing about a college degree rn is that not only is it completely unaffordable, but it doesn't even promise you a job. Entry level jobs these days are looking for 1-5 years of experience far more than they're looking for a relevant degree. Internships are key at this point, but half of them won't even let you apply unless you're in college. And even then it's so competitive you may never land one. The ever irritating double edged sword
I study online one class at a time. Im just finishing up a college course but i dont have money to buy the next course. 😢
Don't go for doctorates unless the job your looking at calls for it, most PhD holders are stuck with teaching or self-funded research, this is after spending 1-2yrs getting internship income while changing homes and even states every 3-6mo's leaving you with paying double on rent during that whole time.
Lawyer, that job market is overfilled and even opening your own firm won't help getting work.
Acting, TH-cam and Twitch actually pays more and gives the same work experience as doing extra work does.
Programming, though degrees and certs exist for it, don't go for any on your own as just making apps or mods is all you need for proving skill. This is a work field where AI is filling the fastest.
A targeted college degree is worth it. STEM. Computer science majors can make upwards of 150k when graduating. However, like all things in life, without direction things usually don’t just align. College is worth it, but keep it targeted. Whether you end up in Law school, medicine or others there will be a good return. A degree in theater or communications won’t help much.
I regret going to graduate school, but not undergraduate school. It was an enormous cost to go to grad school and it hasn't helped me at all in my career. I could have just moved to the city where the school was and found a job.
I would say depends on your career..i really enjoyed college...of course im 36, and Thank God for having GI bill benefits from my pops...so things were much different in 2008 than they are now. But i still.do it again..college helped me to.grow up, i developed a passion for a career i didnt know i had...i had so many travel experiences and gained knowledge and networks...so it was worth it.. but in todays time...there are several options..so its not as crucial...unless you want to be doctor, lawyer, enginner..than unfortunately still have to play the corrupt systems game to get there...
I think the best advice is that as long as the school is accredited(important) no one really cares where you went to school especially after your first job. Find the cheapest community College in state who's credits transfer to the state university knock out all your gers than transfer to the college with the degree you want and fi ish up the program
Don't forget that a great way to afford college is to serve in the military. It doesn't matter what a person does. You can chip rust and paint steel in the Navy or wash airplanes in the Air Force, you will get four years of college paid. There are even program from the National Guard and reserves.
I have to say, the statistic that 82% of graduates have a job offer or are continuing their education following graduation doesn't reflect reality, at least not in my experiences. I graduated from college in 2012, and I knew *one* person who had a job lined up in their field right after graduation (she was in publishing). Most of my friends with 4-year degrees who graduated from 2012-2014 had to turn to retail jobs while they were looking for work in their field of study, and almost none of them ended up ever finding a job in that field: a few ended up switching to other sectors such as coding, and two of them are still in retail jobs. It took me a year after graduating to even find a paid journalism internship (because entry-level jobs are essentially non-existent in journalism). Maybe job prospects following graduation are better now since the labor market has changed, but I think everyone I know either knows someone who struggled after college for a long time, or they experienced it themselves.
The university with 82% success was Texas A&M, which is one of the elites. Some of them were just going onto higher education, not employment. But the news media will try to make 82% the norm. The colleges all lie about students finding jobs. You have to ask around to get the truth.
The bar for entry keeps getting pushed higher and higher in every aspect of life. At least in America it is. It doesn't matter if we provide a ladder at this point because the rungs of the latter just get further and further apart from each other.
I know this video was posted a few days ago but I'd like to join in. I worked hard in school for good grades, I was always a creative person, loved animation, and I am grateful I got a full ride scholarship. I was able to do internships, got my degree and got a job working in a studio, and I liked the job. I enjoyed my University experience, but I did commute to my home because it helped me to save money. That degree wasn't cheap, it was a private University. But with how high costs of living got, and inflation, I am a bit worried about my career path. I know there's companies like Disney, Dreamworks, etc. that pays well, but not all studios are like Dreamworks/Disney. So I've already started learning to code. I do live with my family since I can't move out due to high costs of living. So I've been learning to code at work during breaks and at home and in the weekends. I see that getting certified is more affordable and less time consuming than going back to college again to study for a different degree. So for now I'm just saving up and using the work experience. I'll take a coding bootcamp, pay it off, and see if I can switch jobs. That's my next plan.
I don't see this as sustainable... When I went to college (late 80s), I spent my first year at a Community College, and then transferred to a State university. I did check into a private school, but it was about 4 times more expensive. I think at the time, it was like $40k per year at that private school, and I just couldn't imagine over $100k in loans... So I went State. Also, I was a liberal arts major (English), but that was back when having a liberal arts degree was still considered fine because it meant you were "well rounded" as a person. That said, as I was approaching the end of my schooling, I realized I didn't want to teach (what I initially thought). So out of school, I ended up getting computer jobs, as I was always a computer nerd and back then, you just needed to understand computers to get a computer job. So I went that way with no computer degree and it's worked out great.
There was a period of time after that where people thought they needed applicants to have a computer degree, but more recently I haven't seen that that is the case. It's more about experience and specific certifications now when we hire. Mostly experience, even if it is at a lower level.
Part of the issue when we hire is that people with 4 year degrees want more money than we pay, and we're fine with someone without that degree as long as they have some experience and a cert.. We can train them if they have the aptitude.
I honestly wouldn't recommend a 4 year degree nowadays unless it is for something very specific because of the debt involved, and that is really sad....
One item that is often not considered is your time. I spent seven years of my life in college. Much of that time was miserable, and I didn't do anything to start or advance a career while I attended college. My MA stands for "mediocre and average." While this is meant to be humorous and not completely true, and I didn't borrow any money at all to go to college, I definitely feel like my investment of time didn't pay off at all. Society needs a better way to provide higher education. Employers don't respect or value my degrees at all, and it's no wonder, with 16 million students going to college at any give time in the United States. I'll never forget driving back to my home city after grad school, with much of what I owned in the back seat of my car and a couple of thousand dollars to my name. While no debt is good, that situation was anything but good.
Highly recommend, 'paying for the party'
Great book
This video is incredible. Absolutely banger points and the ending wraps it up beautiful. Wow.
I wish more people knew about CLEP and DSST exams to save a ton of time and money on a degree
Maybe this goes without saying, but I’d like to point out that while you make excellent points regarding the US, the situation is a bit different in some other countries.
My tuition was zero for 6 years of med school in a state university. Some of my classmates had to pay tuition if they couldn’t keep their grades in the top half of the class (or top third or whatever it was), but even then it was only about 600 USD per year. I’ve heard it has gone up since, but still nowhere near what it would cost in the US. And a large percentage of the students still get free tuition if their grades are reasonably good.
Granted the quality isn’t great, but the career track is so long that you eventually learn to do the job reasonably well by the time you’re given any real responsibility. Not 100%, but that’s life (and death).
😢😢Students need to decide WHY they want to go to college. What is their passion? What is the job market for that passion? Does that passion really require a degree? When I started college, I couldn’t get a good answer to what kind of job I would get in my favorite area. So I changed to accounting which I enjoyed. I had a good career and I have a retirement income about 95% of my pre retirement wage.
College is worth it if your end goal is a career that requires a degree. If you want to be a lawyer, doctor or teacher, then yes! If you want to get into tech or even in some aspects of finance, then there are other alternatives that can replace a college education.
Overall, it can be worth it.