I can plot this quite well in my head but a map would be handy indeed. Also in showing the difference between the old and new plans. Are they at same route or not (and why are they different - if they are).
Just finished a night shift driving a London night bus. It's exactly 46 years ago today (9th of September 1974)that I started on the buses and what a treat to come home to.Yet another wonderful video from Jago. Keep em coming!!
I've always wondered why you guys don't get paid as much as train drivers. You have to deal with steering and navigating traffic not to mention dealing with unruly passengers face to face.
@@jc441-i3q Actually on a serious note whilst we are on the subject of money I often give some of my hard earned wages to some of the many homeless people that use night buses to sleep on.It is a disgrace in the twenty first century that so many people in Britain are homeless and as a night bus driver I can vouch that Chingford is a number one "tourist" destination even if it is only visited by the half asleep.
Shadwell (East London Line) was my local tube station when I was a kid. The station, even in the early 1970's, was like a beautiful time warp - with, for some reason, a waiting room in the ticket hall......pretty pointless given the many, many steps down to the platform! I adored the older 1938 red trains that ran on the E.L. Line; such happy memories of first falling in love with the London Underground. 😍
There is a test tunnel in the New Cross area. It was bored in 1969 and the trial tunnelling machine is abandoned at the end of the run. Today, the ground above it is checked for subsidence now and again. The tunnel is too hazardous to enter and is blocked off.
It appeals greatly to me that at 2:18, the words "Surrey Docks" can be seen on screen as they're being spoken despite the station not having carried the name for over 30 years.
Wow that brings back memories "Surrey Docks". Is it that long ago that I last used that station, OMG!!! I remember it being a dinghy damp station platform with the sound of constant running water coming out of the brickwork! ;-D
Please continue making these. Excellent,making a clear summary of often complex and complicated pieces of urban history.You deserve a larger number of subs.
I recently came across plans dating from around the same time of the Lewisham plan (perhaps a bit later) to extend it east towards Stratford and potentially beyond to Ilford and Hainault I believe it was. The plans were aimed, not at redeveloping the Docks but easing congesting and so the plans somewhat take over that of the Chelney to a partial degree. Found it as a bit of a sidenote to Crossrail plans being developed by British Rail as they were taking the tube into account but most of the focus was on mainline alternatives to relieving congestion. There is a free pdf of the original planning booklet on a National Rail library of sorts.
I used to travel on the East London line in the early sixties but then it was called the Old Metropolitan line. The rolling stock was very old - I remember the coaches having oval windows at the end.
When I came to London in 1969 it was immediately apparent that some parts of London had poor transport connections, and people had to us busses instead of the tube and then they might have to change busses as well. The part of London I moved to was one example. Now it is one of the best connected area to live having access to all the major transport hubs.
The first section route of the DLR, from Tower Gateway followed what would have been the Jubilee Line’s route, it was the compromise from the Government when the LDDC was set up, to provide a transport link. The Jubilee Line was left unfinished thanks to Margaret Thatcher winning the 1979 General Election and she hated railways, she wanted to have the rail network ripped up and replaced by a motorway network when she came to power. She pulled the plug on the Jubilee Line, which only got extended on it’s current route, when a private company threatened to build their own underground railway from Docklands into the City as the DLR couldn’t cope with the increased passenger load as Docklands grew.
For the parts where you're describing where the line would go, it would be useful to show on a map for those of us not from London, even if it's just a quick MS Paint line over the tube map or something. Regardless, great video as always!
Thanks! Yeah, I’m afraid this video was made some months back, before I had many viewers and when I didn’t get much feedback. The follow up to this is similarly afflicted, but the fourth part will include maps.
Jago,one good rule of thumb for writers is,always remember your audience! When you're starting up your line,not all your readers are in England,and maps make the visualization easier! London,like New York is complicated,and with the suburbs,it's downright daunting to an outsider! I know a bit about London,but only from videos,and a ton of reading! Also was a published author,and was taught in high school, just how to write and edit a good story!(Also put 3 years on the Yearbook,during my time there,so I speak from experience)! You are very good at what you do,and I've learned a lot from you! Thank you!💯👍👍👍🚉🚇🚂🚝🚊🚊🚎🚋
With the terrible state of TfL and Government finances, the Bakerloo Line extension to Lewisham and beyond is likely to suffer the same fate as the Fleet Line extensions of the 70s and indeed all previous attempts to extend the Bakerloo Line...
I suspect you’re right. I was just working on a video that mentions the Bakerloo extension, and I had to be quite nonspecific about it because I don’t want to look have egg on my face if the plans get cancelled.
Were there any plan to extend the tube to serve the Thamesmead estate, which was built at around the same time, and is notoriously badly served by public transport into central London?
One could say that the IDEA of the Fleet/River Lines has been realised by the Jubilee Line and the DLR between them. But maybe I'm jumping the gun, since Part III sounds mysteriously portentous.
Hi. The route you describe here was never known as the River Line it was just Stage III of the Fleet Line. The River Line was the route that you're probably going to do next, the one that did go through the heart of the Docklands and was to reach Thamesmead. No criticism meant here but as an ex London Transport employee around at the time just wanted to point this out. Enjoy your videos by the way. Cheers.
If the Jubilee Line was extended from Charing Cross to Fenchurch Street and Canary Wharf then it would of been built close by to the River Thames. And could of been called "Fleet Line". Probably. And probably would of extended to New Cross and New Cross Gate. Adding the Fleet Line to the tube map if it existed.
Fenchurch is such a lovely building and impressive as you walk up to it. Then. Horror. That ghastly blue 70s style signage and other ugly things. I hope that is changed.
north greenwich has a branch of unused tunnels just north of the station face the front of the train will heading to stratford then look right out of the window
Surrey Quay's or what we called Surrey Docks before the spoilt rich brats took over, one of my oldest friends still lives near there refusing to move out and make way for some chinless prat, think he is the last of my mates still living in South London. Dire Straits, Michael Caine and Tommy Steele were all locals there and the Specials Ghost Town video shot all around London Bridge, Deptford and docks. The problems facing the trains is the chokepoint of New Cross to St Johns/Lewisham where 4 lines is simply not enough to take the traffic of another operator due to the congested nature of that section of line. I think the only viable way would be to drop a spur from the St Johns to Hither Green under the flyover on the slow lines down to the Hayes line there but it does mean more trains getting in the way of already busy Kent lines via Hither Green and may herald the long long needed remodelling of St Johns and even the demise of St Johns as a station which has crossed the railways minds before. It does seem my late father who started his signalling career at North Kent East signalbox, always said the Bricklayer's line would rise again in the future, he was wrong that the Liverpool St to Shoreditch link would be reinstated though.
Wee snippet of completely useless trivia: on my edition of Trivial Pursuit, "Fleet Line" is the answer to a question on the "proposed" new tube line. The well-known error about Thomas Crapper inventing the flush toilet is also included.😁
If TFL were to simply add the words 'for Fenchurch St' to Aldgate and Tower Gateway station signage this lack of a tube station would be cheaply rectified at a stroke.
when this was gonna be a thing,people had 0 confidence for a Good metro/railways even tho the underground would even get Overpayed some times. but oh boy they were right about the railways (in the north) And were wrong about the Tube (metro).
Lewisham does not need another nice to have line, when it is already served by two. tell that to Liverpool who have been waiting 40 years to have their metro finished.
I'd not heard about the experimental, abandoned tunnel before. However a quick Googling threw up this interesting web page with some photos: www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2017/07/05/photos-from-south-londons-forgotten-tube-tunnel-experiment/
Such a pity the original Fleet line wasn't built. A much more useful route and stations for connectivity and reducing congestion on other routes and. Instead we have the Jubilee line. Only built to connect commuters arriving at Waterloo station with Canary Wharf to encourage companies to move to the new office developments there. No doubt aimed at the inhabitants of the posh suburbs served by trains from Waterloo Who would be reallocating to the new offices, who previously used the Waterloo & City line to reach Bank station in the City. Typical Tory government priorities!
It’s something I’m going to incorporate in future instalments. I’m afraid the first three parts of this series were made when this channel had very few views, so I didn’t have much feedback. But the fourth part will certainly include maps.
This video seriously needs maps to show us where the proposed lines would have gone.
Yes please
I can plot this quite well in my head but a map would be handy indeed. Also in showing the difference between the old and new plans. Are they at same route or not (and why are they different - if they are).
Yes. Most of these videos do. Even a snip from Google Earth and lines to join the dots would help.
www.londonreconnections.com/2015/diving-into-the-fleet-a-look-at-londons-lost-tube/
@@johnburns4017 Thank you!
Just finished a night shift driving a London night bus.
It's exactly 46 years ago today
(9th of September 1974)that I started on the buses and what a treat to come home to.Yet another wonderful video from Jago. Keep em coming!!
Glad you liked it!
I've always wondered why you guys don't get paid as much as train drivers. You have to deal with steering and navigating traffic not to mention dealing with unruly passengers face to face.
@@jc441-i3q All donations gratefully received!!
@@jc441-i3q Actually on a serious note whilst we are on the subject of money I often give some of my hard earned wages to some of the many homeless people that use night buses to sleep on.It is a disgrace in the twenty first century that so many people in Britain are homeless and as a night bus driver I can vouch that Chingford is a number one "tourist" destination even if it is only visited by the half asleep.
@@simonwinter8839 You're in Chingford? I have relatives just south of you in Highams Park!
I find it amazing how plans are made, discarded and then formed again slightly different.
Extending the Bakerloo to Beckenham Junction and connecting with the tram network there would be pretty nice.
I would want a cross london Beckenham Junction to Greenford service if Crossrail tracks can be crossed.
Shadwell (East London Line) was my local tube station when I was a kid. The station, even in the early 1970's, was like a beautiful time warp - with, for some reason, a waiting room in the ticket hall......pretty pointless given the many, many steps down to the platform! I adored the older 1938 red trains that ran on the E.L. Line; such happy memories of first falling in love with the London Underground. 😍
There is a test tunnel in the New Cross area. It was bored in 1969 and the trial tunnelling machine is abandoned at the end of the run. Today, the ground above it is checked for subsidence now and again. The tunnel is too hazardous to enter and is blocked off.
It appeals greatly to me that at 2:18, the words "Surrey Docks" can be seen on screen as they're being spoken despite the station not having carried the name for over 30 years.
Wow that brings back memories "Surrey Docks". Is it that long ago that I last used that station, OMG!!! I remember it being a dinghy damp station platform with the sound of constant running water coming out of the brickwork! ;-D
Thanks for those wonderful photos of the old docks and its pre war river tugs
You’re welcome!
Thank you for another nice, almost forgotten story about the LUL. Really appreciating your knowledge and way of telling the stories.
That's satisfying, "11 seconds ago"
That's satisfying, "11 hours ago"
I mean, my only experience with the tube is cursing it every week, but for some reason I've spent the entire day watching these videos.
Fascinating!
Please continue making these. Excellent,making a clear summary of often complex and complicated pieces of urban history.You deserve a larger number of subs.
Thanks!
*Jubilee line train pulls out of station*
Subtitles: "[Music]"
I recently came across plans dating from around the same time of the Lewisham plan (perhaps a bit later) to extend it east towards Stratford and potentially beyond to Ilford and Hainault I believe it was. The plans were aimed, not at redeveloping the Docks but easing congesting and so the plans somewhat take over that of the Chelney to a partial degree. Found it as a bit of a sidenote to Crossrail plans being developed by British Rail as they were taking the tube into account but most of the focus was on mainline alternatives to relieving congestion. There is a free pdf of the original planning booklet on a National Rail library of sorts.
Interesting! I’ll have to check it out.
@@JagoHazzard Scroll to page 28 for the map
www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_CentralLondonRailStudy1989.pdf
Yup, it was going to take over part of the Central Line on the Hainault loop.
Would love to see some maps showing the route. Its a bit hard to follow as is.
I used to travel on the East London line in the early sixties but then it was called the Old Metropolitan line. The rolling stock was very old - I remember the coaches having oval windows at the end.
Yes.....the 'F' Stock, I think it was.
Yeah they were the f stock. Us old railwaymen called them tanks.
Yes, I Googled them - definitely the 'F' stock.
When I came to London in 1969 it was immediately apparent that some parts of London had poor transport connections, and people had to us busses instead of the tube and then they might have to change busses as well.
The part of London I moved to was one example. Now it is one of the best connected area to live having access to all the major transport hubs.
i lived in Surrey Quays in the 1990s, overlooking the docks
happy days!
Only Jago would put onn a 'I've got a hebby cold' voice to discuss underground schemes intended to relieve congestion!
The first section route of the DLR, from Tower Gateway followed what would have been the Jubilee Line’s route, it was the compromise from the Government when the LDDC was set up, to provide a transport link. The Jubilee Line was left unfinished thanks to Margaret Thatcher winning the 1979 General Election and she hated railways, she wanted to have the rail network ripped up and replaced by a motorway network when she came to power. She pulled the plug on the Jubilee Line, which only got extended on it’s current route, when a private company threatened to build their own underground railway from Docklands into the City as the DLR couldn’t cope with the increased passenger load as Docklands grew.
thank you for another interesting tale from the tube, very enjoyable
Man those old buildings in the docklands would make a groovy place to call home. I just love London.😀
Interesting video Jago .Thanks for posting .
For the parts where you're describing where the line would go, it would be useful to show on a map for those of us not from London, even if it's just a quick MS Paint line over the tube map or something.
Regardless, great video as always!
Thanks! Yeah, I’m afraid this video was made some months back, before I had many viewers and when I didn’t get much feedback. The follow up to this is similarly afflicted, but the fourth part will include maps.
@@JagoHazzard Good video - here's one, courtesy of Londonist londonist.com/2014/07/unbuilt-london-the-river-line
Jago,one good rule of thumb for writers is,always remember your audience! When you're starting up your line,not all your readers are in England,and maps make the visualization easier! London,like New York is complicated,and with the suburbs,it's downright daunting to an outsider! I know a bit about London,but only from videos,and a ton of reading! Also was a published author,and was taught in high school, just how to write and edit a good story!(Also put 3 years on the Yearbook,during my time there,so I speak from experience)! You are very good at what you do,and I've learned a lot from you! Thank you!💯👍👍👍🚉🚇🚂🚝🚊🚊🚎🚋
With the terrible state of TfL and Government finances, the Bakerloo Line extension to Lewisham and beyond is likely to suffer the same fate as the Fleet Line extensions of the 70s and indeed all previous attempts to extend the Bakerloo Line...
I suspect you’re right. I was just working on a video that mentions the Bakerloo extension, and I had to be quite nonspecific about it because I don’t want to look have egg on my face if the plans get cancelled.
Agree on the maps! Difficult to follow without them!
I can get the content by just read the Wikipedia, but I love to turn over here for Jogo's visual editing and his charming news reporter's voice
Fantastic been waiting for this.
The New Cross test tunnel was near Edward Street on the Up side of the tracks
Damn these politicians not wanting to spend money (or wanting to spend money on pointless things!) another excellent video!
Another Interesting video Terry :)
19.2k! You are so close to 20k!
Were there any plan to extend the tube to serve the Thamesmead estate, which was built at around the same time, and is notoriously badly served by public transport into central London?
There was - I have a video about it coming this Friday.
One could say that the IDEA of the Fleet/River Lines has been realised by the Jubilee Line and the DLR between them. But maybe I'm jumping the gun, since Part III sounds mysteriously portentous.
3:24 So... you have plans to take the plans to take things further further?
Another great video keep it up 👍
Hi. The route you describe here was never known as the River Line it was just Stage III of the Fleet Line. The River Line was the route that you're probably going to do next, the one that did go through the heart of the Docklands and was to reach Thamesmead. No criticism meant here but as an ex London Transport employee around at the time just wanted to point this out. Enjoy your videos by the way. Cheers.
If the Jubilee Line was extended from Charing Cross to Fenchurch Street and Canary Wharf then it would of been built close by to the River Thames. And could of been called "Fleet Line". Probably. And probably would of extended to New Cross and New Cross Gate. Adding the Fleet Line to the tube map if it existed.
The Thames Tunnel is damp but warm and has a native mosquito which has been given a Latin name by the insect experts.
Fenchurch is such a lovely building and impressive as you walk up to it. Then. Horror. That ghastly blue 70s style signage and other ugly things. I hope that is changed.
Very interesting Jago, where to next? But Here’s a quiz: What was the difference between our lovely Underground and the Paris Metro?
Could you do a video on the history of the East London line please?
north greenwich has a branch of unused tunnels just north of the station face the front of the train will heading to stratford then look right out of the window
Presumably the DLR would never have been built if the river line had gone through.
would be good to have more visuals diagrapms of the tube of what itwudda looked like
Surrey Quay's or what we called Surrey Docks before the spoilt rich brats took over, one of my oldest friends still lives near there refusing to move out and make way for some chinless prat, think he is the last of my mates still living in South London. Dire Straits, Michael Caine and Tommy Steele were all locals there and the Specials Ghost Town video shot all around London Bridge, Deptford and docks. The problems facing the trains is the chokepoint of New Cross to St Johns/Lewisham where 4 lines is simply not enough to take the traffic of another operator due to the congested nature of that section of line. I think the only viable way would be to drop a spur from the St Johns to Hither Green under the flyover on the slow lines down to the Hayes line there but it does mean more trains getting in the way of already busy Kent lines via Hither Green and may herald the long long needed remodelling of St Johns and even the demise of St Johns as a station which has crossed the railways minds before. It does seem my late father who started his signalling career at North Kent East signalbox, always said the Bricklayer's line would rise again in the future, he was wrong that the Liverpool St to Shoreditch link would be reinstated though.
I feel home sick every time I watch your youtubes.
tertiary .... my word of the day, thanks :)
Please do a video on the Chelney Line (Chelsea to Hackney protected route).
It’s one that’s on my list!
Developers are allowed only shallow foudations on that corridor.
Wonder where those tunnels are? 💕
Wee snippet of completely useless trivia: on my edition of Trivial Pursuit, "Fleet Line" is the answer to a question on the "proposed" new tube line. The well-known error about Thomas Crapper inventing the flush toilet is also included.😁
If TFL were to simply add the words 'for Fenchurch St' to Aldgate and Tower Gateway station signage this lack of a tube station would be cheaply rectified at a stroke.
You’re right who knows if the bakerloo will come
Anyone remember the East London Line in the 80s when it used to have an overpowering smell of petrol for some reason?
Also sewage for some reason
As the DLR is driverless, why are their windshield wipers?
Curious in Calgary.
the trains are operated by staff from time to time, you'll get shifted from your coveted front seat should they require it.
May I contact you about your Alexandra Palace video? Your gmail bounced, maybe I got it wrong?
I still call it Surrey Docks stn even though I know it changed to Quays yonks ago! But i still call Marathon's (choc bar) Marathon's 😆
Wonder where that test tunnel is
20000 special soon
Looks like we'll need a 30000 special soon
@@Frankfurtdabezzzt that is so fast I don't know if I was there at 500 or 5000
when this was gonna be a thing,people had 0 confidence for a Good metro/railways even tho the underground would even get Overpayed some times. but oh boy they were right about the railways (in the north) And were wrong about the Tube (metro).
Tell me Jago - are you David Mitchell in disguise?
I’m his stunt double.
@@JagoHazzard You're his stunt double without the use of computer graphics!!
Lewisham does not need another nice to have line, when it is already served by two.
tell that to Liverpool who have been waiting 40 years to have their metro finished.
They keep nicking the copper cable !!
@@simonwinter8839
Yes, typical of Lewisham. And all that graffiti spattered on every piece of railway infrastructure.
@@johnburns4017 I thought my daubings were rather artistic!!
Beatiing Mr First, First (thank Jago)
I'd not heard about the experimental, abandoned tunnel before. However a quick Googling threw up this interesting web page with some photos: www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2017/07/05/photos-from-south-londons-forgotten-tube-tunnel-experiment/
Mind the gap?
MAPS!!!
Such a pity the original Fleet line wasn't built. A much more useful route and stations for connectivity and reducing congestion on other routes and. Instead we have the Jubilee line. Only built to connect commuters arriving at Waterloo station with Canary Wharf to encourage companies to move to the new office developments there. No doubt aimed at the inhabitants of the posh suburbs served by trains from Waterloo Who would be reallocating to the new offices, who previously used the Waterloo & City line to reach Bank station in the City. Typical Tory government priorities!
Good video, though some accompanying maps would have made it even better.
It’s something I’m going to incorporate in future instalments. I’m afraid the first three parts of this series were made when this channel had very few views, so I didn’t have much feedback. But the fourth part will certainly include maps.
Jago Hazzard I’m looking forward to it :)
Here's one, courtesy of Londonist londonist.com/2014/07/unbuilt-london-the-river-line
LondonAndy70 thanks :)
Twenty-ninth!
hello again
Spoon feeding us. This is infuriating. Argh, argh, etc...
?
@@JagoHazzard I was laughing at my own frustration of the short episode nature of this series. Perhaps I shouldn't do that 'out loud'.