I stumbled onto this refreshing channel and it hilarious to see some shoddy bike engineering as though the forces are so small nothing will get rogered. It is actually quite intricate to jig a bike and get it centred accurately and then fit stuff so that it is square. There are big forces/torques going through the critical components and it is easy to roger them with small misaligments.
Honestly chasing and facing threaded BB's fixes 99% of all problems I've encountered. That is something most competent shops have the tooling for and ability to accomplish.
You may have missed this is Titanium. Titanium is notorious for wearing out and breaking machining tools. Your typical dies don't work near as well in Ti as in steel and aluminum.
@@lastfm4477 Didn't miss the obvious. I've chased, reamed, and faced Titanium frames with Park tooling. These procedures barley qualify as machining. You're not going to be removing any substantial amount of material with these simple and common steps. I understand that Titanium is very hard on any cutting tool, but it is very cheap and simple to have bike shop tooling resharpened in North America. Should the manufacturer be doing this before it reaches a bike mechanic? of course, but that is a rarity.
My Boardman BB shell decided to part ways with it's buddy, the frame. Local engineers - VERY well respected in the one-off motorcycle frame-building world - said the frame had clearly not been stress-relieved which led directly to the catastophic fracture. Frame was toast, was advised that welding would be throwing good money after bad. Have read that this is not an isolated occurrence. That was the last Boardman I ever bought.
My local bikeshop told me the other day that my 2015 Boardman carbon frame is bent due to the way it was made in the factory. Apparently it became obvious when they tried adjusting the dishing of the rear wheel.
@rollinrat4850 = Titanium bikes in general are not very good. The material is difficult to work with and after having three from different manufacturers I simply gave up and returned to steel. I'm getting a little old to be climbing on a heavy bike so I am in the process of building a Di2 11 speed rim brake carbon fiber bike. Most people don't climb as much as I do so steel is a nice forever bike (Tomassini Fire X) but at my age I don't have to worry about a modern carbon fiber bike breaking before I do.
@@tomkunich9401 I currently own 5 Titanium Lynskey frame bikes each with well over 10k miles on them and I never have had an issue with the frames. Before that I had a Titanium Litespeed frame bike that finally cracked after 15 years and 70k miles with no prior issues either. Some of my friends have Titanium frames from Litespeed/Lynskey/Others with no issues either. I would challenge your statement that Titanium bikes in general are not very good.
@@Hambini I wish u had showed us how u corrected the thread ? Did u use the DS as the datum on a milling machine and re tap the NDS thread using a large BSA Tap ?
I hadd no idea you could re thread or fix anything in Titanium. Hambini BB is not something I could ever afford but glad other people can support him for such good work he does.
I bought a Genesis CdF Ti 3 years ago and it rides really well. There were three faults in the build up by the retailer. 15mm bushes in the front wheel for a 12mm thru axle, a spacer on the freewheel that shouldn't have been there for a sram cassette and the brake pads in the rear caliper were the wrong way round so the retaining pin did not go through the holes but sat above the pads. The sram red brake calipers were poor and have been replaced with Hope. When I took the drive train off to clean all the parts a few weeks ago I left the shells in but didn't notice any problem with free rotation of the cranks before I took them off and after I put them back on. Altogether, my problems have been with the components and the frame has been fine so far and the whole set up provides a comfortable ride. There was no discomfort experienced on a 100 mile ride at all. The one thing about the frameset that I don't particularly like is the mounting points for the front mudguard being halfway up the inside of the fork legs. Putting the mounting points there made fitting a front mudguard particularly awkward.
BB shells almost always deform when welded. You have four welds occurring there practically around the entire circumference. And most of them are threaded during production and arrive at the frame builder with threads. Chasing threads & facing the BB shell is a basic procedure for a high-end bike build. Shame they didn't do this one prior to assembly. That said, Ti is notoriously hard to work, especially if that's a 6/4 BB shell. Pressurized water is used to cut many 6/4 Ti bits. Again, the frame mfgr. SHOULD have done this. So it would have been nice to see how Hambini remedied it. My friend's Salsa from when Ross Shafer was welding them had the same issue. Salsa assured my friend the BB shell had been prepped. But premature BB failure and visual inspection confirmed it hadn't. Easy to rectify on metal bikes with the proper tools.
IIRC, Seven Cycles threadmills the BB after welding. Probably the best way to go. TI may be hard to work with, but it’s not impossible. There’s lots of tools and expertise out there.
The decal on the seattube reminds me of back in the day when many, if not all, mountain bikes had frame decals that said "Designed in California," with the state flag on them and the location of manufacture listed underneath, which in the beginning used to be "Made in California" or one of the state's counties, or even "Made in the USA." This changed over the years to "Made in Japan," "Made in Taiwan," then "Made in China" as the demand for such things grew along with the need to cut corners and improve profit margins. There are probably still a couple companies that are cheeky enough to do this or "Designed in USA", in which the fact "designed" means that somebody here selected components out of a manufacturer's or supplier's catalog, maybe ordered a different color and artwork - and that would be the extent of the "designing" performed. Which is what we have here with this frame. Which is why I'll never have another job in the bike biz.
I was led to believe it was lawyers reading the 'rule book' as to what constituted 'made in America' . It seems that one tube was the legal minimum - so the sticker went on that tube - and bingo ! 'murican. Now it's just 'designed in (insert country here) , assembled in Taiwan .
@@spatchist Marketing rules supreme, especially in the bike biz. Lawyers are needed only if any shit sticks to your shoes that the marketing department can't clean up.
That was an AWESOME video!!! 👏👏👏 P.S. Would have loved to see how you corrected the oval shaped threading as much as possible. Not complaining, of course, just very much enjoy watching how you attack such issues. Update: I just saw that you already addressed this. Taking those secrets to the grave. Understood. 👍
Is it that spin test fail is a very late sign that something has gone wrong with the BB or bearings? Probably been struggling longer than when the spin test is fail is obvious.
I have a Litespeed Gravel. I toured the facility and witnessed the build process. The frame is fully welded and then they machine the bottom bracket for pressed fit or threaded. I opted for the threaded. I distinctly remember that station in the process because I knew welding could deform materials and he made a point to show this part of the process. I love my Litespeed and I would buy another one if I were in the market and I would recommend them to anyone seeking a Titanium bike. Excellent service as well. I also have Chris King hubs on a set of carbon wheels on my Enduro. I spoke to my wheel builder about ceramic bearings. He told me the only real difference is the weight of the oil. Lighter weight oil in ceramic which translates to smoother spin. He told me to save my money and use it somewhere it would matter more. Ceramic was a big price increase over an already excellent set of hubs.
Ceramic balls smash easier than steel too. Maybe nlt an issje for road bikes but for MTB it could be. Sadly some people just think more expensive means better or try and convince themselves the marketing is 100% honest.
The reality is Litespeed builds a bike that is actually better than a Moots, a Mosaic and a number of other silly overpriced “status symbol” ti bikes. Litespeed does more tube shaping and butting of their tubes even on their base models than either of those frame makers, and their weld quality and fab techniques are as good if not better. In addition, Litespeed hand brush finishes all their ti frames, which make the frame much easier to maintain and it looks better. It looks professionally finished. Moots meanwhile bead blasts all their frames to a dull finish because it is literally the cheapest way to finish a ti frame, and they do not want to be bothered hand brushing them despite their silly MSRP’s. Then on top of that you add Moots silly and ugly looking 3D printed rear dropouts (which again they only came up with to cut welding and fab costs - there is no improvement to the bike frame from them at all) and it’s amazing anyone would be willing to pay the silly amount they charge for a stock batch built bike with a cheap bead blasted finish and an ugly cheap looking rear dropout. But fools abound, and internet paid shill clowns like David Arthur will continue to sing their praises and BS about how extraordinary they are. LOL. 😀😀
@@ivanboesky1520 I agree. I did a LOT of research before I bought my Litespeed. Moots wasn't even an option because of price so I didn't spend a lot of time looking at them. There was nothing justifying their prices so I just moved on. It really came down to a Litespeed or a Lynskey for my budget and requirements. And the only positive for Lynskey, at the time, was internal cable routing. But the quality of the Litespeed was hands down better in many respects. I haven't regretted it in the least. Now Litespeed has a grvel bike with internal cables. I have 4 bikes (Ridley Fenix SL, Specialized Enduro and a Trek Powerfly 5 eMTB and my Litespeed Gravel) and this one gets the most love because I can do anything but mountain biking on it and I even do that in small amounts.
The idea that that skinny little aluminum tube in the BB “aligned the two cups in spite of them being aligned in the threads and off the face of the BB, is crazy. Interesting concept that might work if it were steel, but the Al tube doesn’t have the stiffness to deflect the larger diameter titanium BB.
Surely made in Taiwan is better than made in UK these days. Taipei looks like it's from the future, where as our greatest engineer is a 5 year old who fixes bicycles.
I have a Genesis Croix de Fer Steel frame from 2015 and I weld my own steel frames. I have had no issue with my Genesis frame. It is still running on the same original Shimano BB hand has probably about 10000km of all weather commuting on it. At least on the steel frames I build it impossible to fit a threaded BB without cutting the thread after the welding. That might be different for machine welded frames but for my hand tig welded steel frames it is impossible. So they have to be cut after welding. I also don't stress relieve my frames (steel). I assume that no small shop custom built frames are stress relieved. You would have to do the stress relieve in the oven with the frame still in the jig. Frames are typically not welded in the jig. The jig is only used for the tacking and the frame is then removed and welded completely outside of the jig. It is the quality of the welder that keeps a frame straight, not the jig. Loosing that much power in the BB seems unreasonable. What you can see in the spin test is hard a single watt that is needed to spin the crank. Of course that might differ under load. However to actually loose that much power that you get dropped by someone who is usually slower than you is hard to believe. It would need 30 to 50 watts of loss on the BB to get that kind of resistant. That kind of power would really heat up the bearings and probly even destroy it quickly. In addition it would be really hard to turn the crank by hand. And it would stop instantly when you don't push anymore. Its probably more a mind thing that he thinks that he is losing out to the because of the BB. You probably won't win the tour de France with this BB but most people wouldn't really notice it while riding.
@@Sidowse no but a bad spin test does not mean anything for the performace under load. You can have a good spin test and it will still perform very bad under load. They are not neccessarily related. They can be but not neccessarily. You can have a super spin test but as soon as someone actually presses hard into the pedal, for example with a very soft bb shell (really soft) the performance under load will be shit. on the other hand you can have a bearing with some thick grease which will perform poorly at the spin test but under load it will performe much better than the above.
Hambini, love your content and your attitude! People seem to have lost the capability to think straight and I love how you expose all this overrated and overpriced trash on the bike market. Keep up the good work! 👏👏👏
I felt a little bit hurt watching this video. I've been riding a CDF Ti for the past 5 years - an earlier model to the one shown. It was my first road bike after owning many MTB's. Unless you count the crap wheel hubs, that I quickly swapped out for a pair of Hopes, I can't fault it.
ive been thinking about building a bike this summer, honestly at this stage; i am paranoid about buying a frame cause i watch way to many of these "the BB shell is garbage" vids :)
the only real option is to get the frame to the Master himself and cry when you get the verdict. Either from joy cause the frame passes muster of from sadness cause you too fell victiom to the "BBs dont need to be done properly" industry ^^
Guerciotti in italy make some beautiful steel frames. 6 weeks build time 1,250 euro. Frame only. Lots of colours. Fully built they weight about 20 pounds. Traditional steel threaded headset. A right proper race bike. Another option is Colnago master x lite, 2,600 euro. 6 months waiting period. Fully built weight 17.5 pounds. Comes as a frame only. Headset and down barrel adjustors included. Wilier superleggera steel frame bike another option and Gios steel frame bike, both made in italy. Beautiful classic frames and light.
I know what you mean, so I just had a frame built locally. This fellow has been making frames for 30 years. Steel frame reynolds tubing 725, I was able to work with the builder and get exactly what I wanted. Final straw was when I screwed up the BB on a carbon trek checkpoint frame and no help from the bike shop.
I just watched this after the video of threaded BB's on the Boardman carbon frame. I thought there would be fewer potential problems with a metal BB shell. Apparently not. All my bikes are BSA threaded steel frames. I use both the cartridge and external style BB's and have experienced tightness in installing or removing the non-drive side and the cranks not spinning freely. Now it makes sense. I may look into sourcing a tap for the BB threads in future.
About that disk brake: If you add some big holes on a quite thin plate, you actually reduce the total area. And the total area is what dissipates heat. However, if there is dirt on the disc, the holes may offer an escape for the dirt when the brake pad is coming on. And, of course, the holes look fancy.
Hambini, You have shaken my faith in 3 cycling "values" 1, Ti is cool 2, Threaded bottom brackets rule! 3, Buy Foreign Parts through an importer (it gives you someone local to shout at, if there is a problem)! I might have to give up on the idea of N+1? (That's a joke) 😅🤣😂😅🤣😂😅🤣😂
@@shawnchong2761 Current number of bikes plus one. There's also another approach to finding the correct number: D-1, the number of bikes chich will cause a divorce minus one. :D
1 and 2 are fine. I wrench my own bike. Never fucking touching pressfit. Too much a pain to deal with on a bike that I need daily. Ti is cool. The fuckup with this frame was that #3 is bullshit. I don't see spending the money on titanium, but getting it imported through a factory line. Ti is awesome, but there's a reason its expensive and that price tag is paying for the master building who knows wtf they're doing with the material. Besides, if you're going to buy a space metal forever bike, go the extra distance and get it done up custom to your exact body dimensions.
titanium is a choice of alloy in the aerospace and aviation industry for decades now. there is bad Titanium. Threaded BB's are fine its the frame threading not the BB in this instance. Hambini is making product due to asshat manufacturing
Dunno what's up with these expensive bikes, but my 30 year old Centurion straight gauge steel frame never gave me any issues. Not even rust. That bike's done over 100.000 km in its lifetime(good to go for another 100.000).
You dunno what up. Look at that shit heap. It supposed to be a racing bike, but look at it, its got a sloping top tube and the angles of a mountain bike. There's your answer.
@@taichihead42 The angle of a top tube says nothing about functionality. The obsession with level tubes is archaic and stupid. A longer seatpost extension allows more flex and comfort without any downside.
It is normal for threaded BB shells to be threaded before welding. Just go to Paragon Machine Works' catalog and see for yourself. You do use heatsinks while welding up a titanium frame to minimize heat distortion. There will be some distortion and then you face and chase the BB shell afterwards. I only build steel frames so I can't speak towards needing stress relief of titanium frames, but it is certainly not the norm for custom steel frames to be heat treated after building them, and not possible for brazed frames. I only braze my frames, which I braze out of the jig after tacking. You don't use heatsinks for brazing and there's always some BB shell distortion. After facing and chasing the shell, the BB runs smooth and creak free, better than any commercial frames I've had, so they perhaps don't face and chase as thoroughly as they should. Facing and chasing is done by a combo tool that does both operations along the same axis. It isn't particularly complicated or interesting and is a small part of building a frame.
Great content! Hambini, can you please make a video on what to look for, when a customer is about to buy a bike? Either a new, or a used bike. Some basic tips on instructions, what to look for etc. How to spot serious problems and things like that. Car channels have been doing this for years, but I have never seen a video like that for bikes. Maybe there are some, but it is quite rate for sure. It would be an amazing piece of contact and it would help a lot of us to avoid breaking the bank for some trash quality rubbish bike.
Long ago Shimano had taken problems of faulty BB shell up with cartridge BB. Had let that go in returns for lighter BB since. Now we’re bringing Truly Aligned Shell back.
My Prime DUB BSA BB is the best BB I’ve ever had. It’s a year old and not fooked. Which for me, off road in the UK, is quite impressive. So sometimes cheap ain’t too bad.
good work on the fix, on the rotors i often find the shimano rotors with the big spider (ice tech 3 piece braking surface, alloy sandwich) versus the normal center lock ones with the small spider fitted to that one are much straighter and don't rub as much. being center lock he can also get the ice tech freeza rotos wtih the center heatsink where there alloy core is extended inwards.
Crap de Fer - meaning iron-shit. Not a bad name at all. I loved your "family friendly" restraint when describing the advantages of ceramic bearings at 13:35
Every hand built bike I have owned. Braze or weld in BB shell. Stress relieve if welded, thread and face. No mass production, simples. Probably why one of them is 32 years old and still the same weight as an entry level modern disk.
I've heard really good things about Genesis in regards to their customer service and support - in particular from a friend who managed to break his frame somewhere in SE Asia during an around-the-world ride. They sent him a new frame, no questions asked, all the way across the globe to him. It's disappointing to see this sort of manufacturing fault from them, but I'm curious to know if he contacted them about it and if he did; what did they have to say about it? Interesting and educational video either way!
Interesting how one would think a broken frame and replacement is a "Good Thing". Why not finish the trek on the same frame you started - that is good thing/frame. Now both you and Hambini have shared two fundamental defects. Having just worked on a Vintage Litespeed (headset bearings, not Frame) I can attest there is no comparison in the metal working craftsmanship of these Ti frames.
@@bimmerbent You completely misunderstood my comment. I never said a broken frame was a good thing at any point. I said that the customer service was good and that they were willing to replace the frame anywhere in the world - my point being that the frame in Hambini's video might have been eligible for the same service.
I assemble bikes for another brand in the UK who also source their titanium frames in the Far East. I'm ashamed to say, almost every titanium frame I work with has this problem. I haven't the skills to fix it though, and my employer doesn't seem interested. Don't buy cheap ti frames .
@@nr619 cost and quality don’t always correspond appropriately. I’d stick with quality steel over low-mid grade Ti. A nice heat treated steel frame is lighter than straight gauge Ti. It’s also easier to work with regards to your bike mechanic. If a thread needs chasing or something it’s just far more user friendly than Ti 9 (or carbon). Good Ti, Al, steel, Aluminum… are all good. If a problem happens steel is the most user friendly - by a huge margin of any of them. Many problems with bikes are from the factory and others are from use or poor wrenching. Steel is the most user friendly. User friendly is good. The weight difference between steel and the other materials with the reputation of lighter weight is mostly BS and hype - assuming good heat treated steel.
Hambini states the frame is made in Taiwan. The Genesis website states the following regarding where their bikes are made: All our bikes are designed at our HQ in Milton Keynes but we’re extremely proud to be able to use some expert workshops in Vietnam and Indonesia for production. All our frames are put together by hand in batches and then assembled before being shipped over to our warehouse.
Great to see a vid on ti frames. Not all cheapo ti frames are crap - i have a Waltly bought direct from the factory in China for 600 GBP to my own spec and geometry. Well nearly. I copied the geometry from the Enigma Escape. Looks amazing and everything works great. Except the top tube doesn't hit the headtube flush - it's about 1mm out. Erm, yes i know - I'll buy Enigma next time...
Good fix, that's a tough situation. Logically I know one of those bearings is reverse threads but it still looks weird seeing you spin them in together. lol
Interesting, I have a steel Croix de Fer which looks to be the same vintage as this Ti one and it seems to have a similar, if not the same bottom bracket shell issue. It’s eating through non drive side BB cups.
Love your fix... Would buy your BB someday , the only problem is it's half the price of my bike 😊... Can you do a video on LLB wheelset bearing Vs normal bearing how much is the actual gain due to less friction and for holding the speed
Frame jigs, for the most part only retain the alignment if the frame (within the bounds of jig accuracy/stiffness & opperater skill) they generally can not stop tube destortion and/or shrinkage of materials due to welds. What can "help reduce" distortion, out of round, etc are heatsinks in the form of an bronze expanding mandrel with back purge. I have no clue how your able to tell on a frame made from Ti, steel, stainless or ally visually if it's been "Stress Relieved" as you keep talking about (unless there was an obvious blackening/blueing of the steel), especially as most frames are painted, and in raw Ti or Stainless its brushed, polished or bead blasted. Yes PWHT absolutely has to happen in Aluminium frame building, less so in steel as its usually 4130 or a derivative of that with additional elements like Niobium, Ti, molybdenum etc to gain differing properties. Even highly stressed parts like chassis, suspension arms, roll-cages etc are not heat treated in 4130 or similar unless it's thicker than 3-4mm. Also, during the tube manufacturing process for most bicycle specific tube sets/materials (not aluminium) the final temper of the material is gained through drawing. When TIG welding or brazing tube like this the temper of the tube is deminished (typically anneiled slightly) and a high level of operator skill is required to create a sound weldment whilst limiting the reduction in desired tube characteristics. PWHT in many cases would, when above AC1 temp for carbon steel (high carbon equivalency) create a totally different grain structure to the material, (as its closer to the utectic point) this may be undesirable. Some steel tubes from manufacturers like Reynolds, Tange, Columbus, Dedachi (spelling) do produce some tubes that are heat treated as part of the tube manufacturing process but not as a requirement of frame production. Many big manufacturers can and do PWHT things like high end bmx or jump bike frames in 4130, but as most manufacturers in Ti and Stainless are smaller volume and often entirely bespoke builds they don't always PWHT frames. Many builders in steel tube as "bespoke frame builders" use Fillet or Lug Braze, the temperatures to melt the Bronze and Silver solders is typically between 450°C - 700°C (and again volume of production counts here too), with AC1 being C. 720°C this makes brazed or Silver Soldered frames impossible. Of course we're slightly going apples to oranges here, between bespoke one-off builds and maufacting of thousands of the same model. But my point still holds. The majority of bikes on the mass production lines of even the best manufacturers are either Aluminium or Carbon Fiber as you know. Aluminium usually needs a full anneile process post weld, prior to any reaming, facing, alignment etc, then is sent to be solution treated to artificially age the material back to - T6. Incase anyone thinks ima some ranting crackpot, I'm 15 years in the trade, welded for defence, nuclear, scientific instruments, a very large folding bike brand in the uk, have my own business and have built multiple steel frames with TIG, brass and silver. Great videos as usual.
The day I can glance at metal and determine its grain structure or internal stress level.... will be quite a day! I think he just chased the threads and increased the clearance for this fix. Nothing to do with stress relieving. I really doubt he built up the bore, stress relieved it, re- machined it and then cut new threads. But if anybody else hadn't done that, I have a feeling he would have said they were cutting corners and should have.
@RollinRat worked nuclear/defense for a bit, we had many materials in bonded stores that were Tripple remelted in a vaccum and had the exact metallurgy tweeked to absolute precision for the job specification, then there were stress-relieved before machining the pree weld parts that were then x-ray'd on the weld, stress-relived an D machined again, mental, and we couldn't have a trace of chlorine or chlorides or it messed up the metal! Sounds like you do/did some seriously fine limit work, cudos brother.
Next you'll be telling me I need to stress-relieve my frame made of Reynolds/Columbus/Dedacciai TIG-welded alloyed-steel bicycle frame tubing. Serious BB thread "Tapping" tools have a very solid alignment shaft to align the left-side tap to the right-side tap. As a framebuilder, I cannot buy an untapped BB shell. I can however buy a whole range of tapped BB shells. The premier worldwide supplier of Ti BB shells sells only ...... threaded BB shells. The distortion you see there (which is pretty awful) would have been dealt with by a proper sharp BB-tapping tool (but you wouldn't have gotten to sell one of your BB's .... wink). The thread would have become "looser", however when the ends which no doubt were not parallel were also faced (with the professional tool which also has a dirty great alignment shaft in it too....), the final result is that there is enough wiggle-room in the thread for the cups to be held in alignment when they clamp against the perfectly-squared "faced" edges of the BB shell. If you *think* a loose BB shell thread "might" result in a stripped thread, then you need to look at cheap steel frames made in.... taiwan. They have "loose" threads and they do not strip. They don't get tight-fitting cups when moderate distortion is present. Nor do they appear to face the BB shell.... a mass-production shortcut. My 2 cents as full-time framebuilder and degree'd mechanical engineer. BTW, I do not know of a titanium frame made "in the west" that goes anywhere near heat after welding.... The biggest problem with titanium frames is the failure to use butting (which is very common in "steel" frame tubes) to adequately address points of localised stress-concentration.... i.e. the welds. Why don't steel frames need the incredibly-precise welds that Ti frames apparently do....? Simple answer; this frame was clearly not tapped post-welding with a sharp, self-aligning BB thread tap tool. Cyclus, Park, Unior make 'em.
Bespoke prices in the uk do not add up to a bespoke product is my experience. Reynold produce in my opinion the finest and certainly expensive Ti tubesets custom drawn to final frame size i rang around a few frame builders would they weld the frame to aircraft spec ie impuritys etc nope didnt need it apparently though Moots do it let alone machining a BB lol did these builder have city & guilds welding with gasoxy or secondly tig let alone aircraft cert where they would earn more lel I didnt bother asking. Their prices and marketing implied they were truly a bespoke service the reality not. I would prefer a craftsman to make my frames over a professional engineer
Good points there. That frame could have easily been corrected with the standard tooling stated by e f g. Most all ti bottom brackets start threaded and should be chased post-weld. Most of these frames are also not faced for concentricity as well. I've repaired dozens of them. I’d add that ti frames are not welded in a fixture, but tacked only in the fixture, unlike brazed or fillet-welded steel frames. The stresses built up during welding are primarily caused by poor mitering, poor heat control, poor weld sequence and changing wall thicknesses of material. All metal welded frames have distorted bottom brackets after welding. Once they have been chased, however, the internal portion of the shell contact points should be round or near round as the chasing process will cut threads in the ovalized portion of the shell. You’re left with a near-circle internal diameter while the external circumference remains egg-shaped, due to the chainstays being welded, usually within 5mm of the shell edge. I’m also not aware of any heat-treatment of ti frame from any manufacturer, Far East, USA or otherwise. Anything above 600°C and you get into beta transus which can become active for contaminants. Disclosure: full-time professional ti builder
Don't mind discs, if you want zero rub, change to mechanical discs, discs extend wheel life, basically to indefinite, in any case couple watts of rub is neither here nor there Chris froome
Wow, I stumbled across this video a week or two ago. I just happened to be ordering a custom made titanium frame off of Alibaba and when they told me that they would begin welding the next day, since I saw this video, I let them know that I want to make sure that the BB is still round and not oval after welding. Today the company messaged me that the weld did not turn out properly, that the BB became oval. So now instead of creating a new BB that is CNC'd 2mm, they are going to 3d print the BB to 2.1mm and they believe that the slight increase in thickness will prevent the ovalizing. I asked if they thread the BB before or after welding and according to them it's before :| I sent the person a link to this video, not sure if they also do the stress relief. How can you tell whether the BB area was stress relieved or not?
The observation that westerners are prejudice against Chinese engineer and manufacturing is accurate. Western customers want top quality, cheap prices, and 5 star customer support. That ain't how it works folks. I believe the Chinese are excellent manufacturers that can rival or surpass anything made in the west.
When I worked in shops in the US we would always remark on the frame decals that purported loudly in Red White and BLue "DESIGNED in the USA" Above the black and white 'made in Taiwan' sticker.
You make a lot of great points in the video...actually all your videos. I will make one counterpoint however. You are fixing outliers. The only frames you measure and fix are the ones that people have problems with. I think to truly say a particular brand is crap you really need a statistically significant sample to verify the quality. To pass judgement on an entire brand based on n=1 is not really an accurate assessment. That said your videos are awesome and extremely entertaining.
How do you know they are only outliers if you do not know how many bad frames they produced that are never sent to Hambini? You incorrectly assume that Hambini represents the population of all or near all of the poor frames produced by any manufacturer, which he obviously does not.
@@ivanboesky1520 Some of what you state is valid. What I can tell you is this: I am a Quality Engineer with over 25 years dealing with manufacturing issues and how they result in consumer complaints. What I’m stating in this being an outlier is this frame ended up in Hambini’s video because it was identified by the end user as having an issue. You are right we have no idea about the greater population. We have to make the assumption that they must get it right most of the time, or they wouldn’t have a business. Thus this video should be understood as this is n=1, it does not represent the greater population of the manufacturers frames, but it does represent that this manufacturer has poor process controls and they are not using the correct inspection techniques to identify out of specification products and/or processes.
Surprised to see this on a Genesis, maybe a Friday afternoon job (or just someone not good with ti). I toured all over the world on a Tour de Fer and touchwood it's been really solid - did the spin test when I first built it up and the cranks spun around for ages 😀
I do love it when we get Hambini roasting a threaded BB, titanium frame. It so brings the neck beards out. But you'll take my hydraulic disk brakes from my cold dead hands 😏
From what I can tell with Ti is you are stepping up to a katana, meaning the dude that pounds the metal out makes all the difference, the quality of construction matters a ton in maximazing the properties of the material
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
would be great if you showed the actual process of fixing (centering, cutting a new thread etc.) in the video
I don't really want to give some of my tooling away.
do your fans a favour for once!
@@Hambini u can always reply, if i show you, i might have to k!ll you. That's what a veteran mech told me for not exposing his secrets
@@Hambini i bet you have some nasty reaming tools hidden in your shed !
@cheruzan Agreed. This video was a statement of the problem, not a demonstration of the fix.
I stumbled onto this refreshing channel and it hilarious to see some shoddy bike engineering as though the forces are so small nothing will get rogered. It is actually quite intricate to jig a bike and get it centred accurately and then fit stuff so that it is square. There are big forces/torques going through the critical components and it is easy to roger them with small misaligments.
Honestly chasing and facing threaded BB's fixes 99% of all problems I've encountered. That is something most competent shops have the tooling for and ability to accomplish.
You may have missed this is Titanium. Titanium is notorious for wearing out and breaking machining tools. Your typical dies don't work near as well in Ti as in steel and aluminum.
@@lastfm4477 Didn't miss the obvious. I've chased, reamed, and faced Titanium frames with Park tooling. These procedures barley qualify as machining. You're not going to be removing any substantial amount of material with these simple and common steps. I understand that Titanium is very hard on any cutting tool, but it is very cheap and simple to have bike shop tooling resharpened in North America. Should the manufacturer be doing this before it reaches a bike mechanic? of course, but that is a rarity.
My Boardman BB shell decided to part ways with it's buddy, the frame. Local engineers - VERY well respected in the one-off motorcycle frame-building world - said the frame had clearly not been stress-relieved which led directly to the catastophic fracture. Frame was toast, was advised that welding would be throwing good money after bad. Have read that this is not an isolated occurrence. That was the last Boardman I ever bought.
that is interesting.
My local bikeshop told me the other day that my 2015 Boardman carbon frame is bent due to the way it was made in the factory. Apparently it became obvious when they tried adjusting the dishing of the rear wheel.
Had a Boardman 29er with a BB30 bottom bracket years back, it was the shortest ownership of any bike in 18 years. Good riddance.
@rollinrat4850 = Titanium bikes in general are not very good. The material is difficult to work with and after having three from different manufacturers I simply gave up and returned to steel. I'm getting a little old to be climbing on a heavy bike so I am in the process of building a Di2 11 speed rim brake carbon fiber bike. Most people don't climb as much as I do so steel is a nice forever bike (Tomassini Fire X) but at my age I don't have to worry about a modern carbon fiber bike breaking before I do.
@@tomkunich9401 I currently own 5 Titanium Lynskey frame bikes each with well over 10k miles on them and I never have had an issue with the frames. Before that I had a Titanium Litespeed frame bike that finally cracked after 15 years and 70k miles with no prior issues either. Some of my friends have Titanium frames from Litespeed/Lynskey/Others with no issues either. I would challenge your statement that Titanium bikes in general are not very good.
Love those 105 door knobs. I use them on my house doors.
You have doors in that bunker?
Great video. As one of the customers less fit friends I’m eager to watch for improvement on the road.
Well he hasn't got any excuses now!
Are you going to drop him again? How long are you going to wait in the route?
@@Hambini I wish u had showed us how u corrected the thread ?
Did u use the DS as the datum on a milling machine and re tap
the NDS thread using a large BSA Tap ?
@@budbud2509 He mentioned using the drive side to set the center. I didn't catch anything else.
@@budbud2509 I'm assuming he's undersized the cup rather than correct the frame
I hadd no idea you could re thread or fix anything in Titanium.
Hambini BB is not something I could ever afford but glad other people can support him for such good work he does.
I bought a Genesis CdF Ti 3 years ago and it rides really well. There were three faults in the build up by the retailer. 15mm bushes in the front wheel for a 12mm thru axle, a spacer on the freewheel that shouldn't have been there for a sram cassette and the brake pads in the rear caliper were the wrong way round so the retaining pin did not go through the holes but sat above the pads. The sram red brake calipers were poor and have been replaced with Hope. When I took the drive train off to clean all the parts a few weeks ago I left the shells in but didn't notice any problem with free rotation of the cranks before I took them off and after I put them back on. Altogether, my problems have been with the components and the frame has been fine so far and the whole set up provides a comfortable ride. There was no discomfort experienced on a 100 mile ride at all. The one thing about the frameset that I don't particularly like is the mounting points for the front mudguard being halfway up the inside of the fork legs. Putting the mounting points there made fitting a front mudguard particularly awkward.
BB shells almost always deform when welded. You have four welds occurring there practically around the entire circumference. And most of them are threaded during production and arrive at the frame builder with threads. Chasing threads & facing the BB shell is a basic procedure for a high-end bike build. Shame they didn't do this one prior to assembly.
That said, Ti is notoriously hard to work, especially if that's a 6/4 BB shell. Pressurized water is used to cut many 6/4 Ti bits. Again, the frame mfgr. SHOULD have done this. So it would have been nice to see how Hambini remedied it.
My friend's Salsa from when Ross Shafer was welding them had the same issue. Salsa assured my friend the BB shell had been prepped. But premature BB failure and visual inspection confirmed it hadn't. Easy to rectify on metal bikes with the proper tools.
IIRC, Seven Cycles threadmills the BB after welding. Probably the best way to go. TI may be hard to work with, but it’s not impossible. There’s lots of tools and expertise out there.
The decal on the seattube reminds me of back in the day when many, if not all, mountain bikes had frame decals that said "Designed in California," with the state flag on them and the location of manufacture listed underneath, which in the beginning used to be "Made in California" or one of the state's counties, or even "Made in the USA." This changed over the years to "Made in Japan," "Made in Taiwan," then "Made in China" as the demand for such things grew along with the need to cut corners and improve profit margins. There are probably still a couple companies that are cheeky enough to do this or "Designed in USA", in which the fact "designed" means that somebody here selected components out of a manufacturer's or supplier's catalog, maybe ordered a different color and artwork - and that would be the extent of the "designing" performed. Which is what we have here with this frame. Which is why I'll never have another job in the bike biz.
Specialized, Marin, and Trek did this.
That's not back in the day. It's an all new specialized frames!!!
@@maxgrass8134 You are correct.
I was led to believe it was lawyers reading the 'rule book' as to what constituted 'made in America' . It seems that one tube was the legal minimum - so the sticker went on that tube - and bingo ! 'murican. Now it's just 'designed in (insert country here) , assembled in Taiwan .
@@spatchist Marketing rules supreme, especially in the bike biz. Lawyers are needed only if any shit sticks to your shoes that the marketing department can't clean up.
That was an AWESOME video!!! 👏👏👏 P.S. Would have loved to see how you corrected the oval shaped threading as much as possible. Not complaining, of course, just very much enjoy watching how you attack such issues. Update: I just saw that you already addressed this. Taking those secrets to the grave. Understood. 👍
So nice of you to help the customer out of his dilemma. Exceptionally fine work. Cheers
I have been waiting for you since the internet started
Thank you! Shedding light
Knowledge is power and thanks to you progress
When a spin test doesn't go well, you know the spin test is showing its value.
Yup. The spin test is shite...until it reveals a problem.
Is it that spin test fail is a very late sign that something has gone wrong with the BB or bearings? Probably been struggling longer than when the spin test is fail is obvious.
Spin tests are great.
I have a Litespeed Gravel. I toured the facility and witnessed the build process. The frame is fully welded and then they machine the bottom bracket for pressed fit or threaded. I opted for the threaded. I distinctly remember that station in the process because I knew welding could deform materials and he made a point to show this part of the process. I love my Litespeed and I would buy another one if I were in the market and I would recommend them to anyone seeking a Titanium bike. Excellent service as well.
I also have Chris King hubs on a set of carbon wheels on my Enduro. I spoke to my wheel builder about ceramic bearings. He told me the only real difference is the weight of the oil. Lighter weight oil in ceramic which translates to smoother spin. He told me to save my money and use it somewhere it would matter more. Ceramic was a big price increase over an already excellent set of hubs.
Ceramic balls smash easier than steel too. Maybe nlt an issje for road bikes but for MTB it could be.
Sadly some people just think more expensive means better or try and convince themselves the marketing is 100% honest.
The reality is Litespeed builds a bike that is actually better than a Moots, a Mosaic and a number of other silly overpriced “status symbol” ti bikes. Litespeed does more tube shaping and butting of their tubes even on their base models than either of those frame makers, and their weld quality and fab techniques are as good if not better.
In addition, Litespeed hand brush finishes all their ti frames, which make the frame much easier to maintain and it looks better. It looks professionally finished. Moots meanwhile bead blasts all their frames to a dull finish because it is literally the cheapest way to finish a ti frame, and they do not want to be bothered hand brushing them despite their silly MSRP’s. Then on top of that you add Moots silly and ugly looking 3D printed rear dropouts (which again they only came up with to cut welding and fab costs - there is no improvement to the bike frame from them at all) and it’s amazing anyone would be willing to pay the silly amount they charge for a stock batch built bike with a cheap bead blasted finish and an ugly cheap looking rear dropout. But fools abound, and internet paid shill clowns like David Arthur will continue to sing their praises and BS about how extraordinary they are. LOL. 😀😀
@@ivanboesky1520 I agree. I did a LOT of research before I bought my Litespeed. Moots wasn't even an option because of price so I didn't spend a lot of time looking at them. There was nothing justifying their prices so I just moved on.
It really came down to a Litespeed or a Lynskey for my budget and requirements.
And the only positive for Lynskey, at the time, was internal cable routing. But the quality of the Litespeed was hands down better in many respects. I haven't regretted it in the least. Now Litespeed has a grvel bike with internal cables.
I have 4 bikes (Ridley Fenix SL, Specialized Enduro and a Trek Powerfly 5 eMTB and my Litespeed Gravel) and this one gets the most love because I can do anything but mountain biking on it and I even do that in small amounts.
Great video. Thanks. Very cool how your bottom bracket solved this problem.
The idea that that skinny little aluminum tube in the BB “aligned the two cups in spite of them being aligned in the threads and off the face of the BB, is crazy. Interesting concept that might work if it were steel, but the Al tube doesn’t have the stiffness to deflect the larger diameter titanium BB.
Surely made in Taiwan is better than made in UK these days. Taipei looks like it's from the future, where as our greatest engineer is a 5 year old who fixes bicycles.
Cool episode, love the look of your BBs.
Your pronounciation of Taiwan was very natural.
I have a Genesis Croix de Fer Steel frame from 2015 and I weld my own steel frames.
I have had no issue with my Genesis frame. It is still running on the same original Shimano BB hand has probably about 10000km of all weather commuting on it.
At least on the steel frames I build it impossible to fit a threaded BB without cutting the thread after the welding. That might be different for machine welded frames but for my hand tig welded steel frames it is impossible. So they have to be cut after welding. I also don't stress relieve my frames (steel). I assume that no small shop custom built frames are stress relieved. You would have to do the stress relieve in the oven with the frame still in the jig.
Frames are typically not welded in the jig. The jig is only used for the tacking and the frame is then removed and welded completely outside of the jig. It is the quality of the welder that keeps a frame straight, not the jig.
Loosing that much power in the BB seems unreasonable. What you can see in the spin test is hard a single watt that is needed to spin the crank. Of course that might differ under load. However to actually loose that much power that you get dropped by someone who is usually slower than you is hard to believe. It would need 30 to 50 watts of loss on the BB to get that kind of resistant. That kind of power would really heat up the bearings and probly even destroy it quickly. In addition it would be really hard to turn the crank by hand. And it would stop instantly when you don't push anymore.
Its probably more a mind thing that he thinks that he is losing out to the because of the BB. You probably won't win the tour de France with this BB but most people wouldn't really notice it while riding.
@@Sidowse no but a bad spin test does not mean anything for the performace under load. You can have a good spin test and it will still perform very bad under load. They are not neccessarily related. They can be but not neccessarily. You can have a super spin test but as soon as someone actually presses hard into the pedal, for example with a very soft bb shell (really soft) the performance under load will be shit. on the other hand you can have a bearing with some thick grease which will perform poorly at the spin test but under load it will performe much better than the above.
Hambini, love your content and your attitude! People seem to have lost the capability to think straight and I love how you expose all this overrated and overpriced trash on the bike market. Keep up the good work! 👏👏👏
I felt a little bit hurt watching this video. I've been riding a CDF Ti for the past 5 years - an earlier model to the one shown. It was my first road bike after owning many MTB's.
Unless you count the crap wheel hubs, that I quickly swapped out for a pair of Hopes, I can't fault it.
When you're making any number of things a certain % will be bad. You got a good one, simply by chance, so go out and ride without worry.
Hambini needs to apply some of that Mobile to his poor dry hands!
ive been thinking about building a bike this summer, honestly at this stage; i am paranoid about buying a frame cause i watch way to many of these "the BB shell is garbage" vids :)
the only real option is to get the frame to the Master himself and cry when you get the verdict. Either from joy cause the frame passes muster of from sadness cause you too fell victiom to the "BBs dont need to be done properly" industry ^^
Guerciotti in italy make some beautiful steel frames. 6 weeks build time 1,250 euro. Frame only. Lots of colours. Fully built they weight about 20 pounds. Traditional steel threaded headset. A right proper race bike. Another option is Colnago master x lite, 2,600 euro. 6 months waiting period. Fully built weight 17.5 pounds. Comes as a frame only. Headset and down barrel adjustors included. Wilier superleggera steel frame bike another option and Gios steel frame bike, both made in italy. Beautiful classic frames and light.
@@taichihead42 also De Rosa, Nevi and Passoni.
I know what you mean, so I just had a frame built locally. This fellow has been making frames for 30 years. Steel frame reynolds tubing 725, I was able to work with the builder and get exactly what I wanted. Final straw was when I screwed up the BB on a carbon trek checkpoint frame and no help from the bike shop.
I built my frame up. Bb30. no issues.
I just watched this after the video of threaded BB's on the Boardman carbon frame. I thought there would be fewer potential problems with a metal BB shell. Apparently not. All my bikes are BSA threaded steel frames. I use both the cartridge and external style BB's and have experienced tightness in installing or removing the non-drive side and the cranks not spinning freely. Now it makes sense. I may look into sourcing a tap for the BB threads in future.
I would have enjoyed watching you go through the process of correcting the defect - i.e. find the center and re-tap the threads. perhaps next time?
My thoughts exactly. While I was smashing my hairdresser 😉
Deffo would have liked to see this process on camera.....
A spin test can't tell you definitively that it's good, but it sure can tell you when it's bad.
I couldn't put that better myuself
About that disk brake: If you add some big holes on a quite thin plate, you actually reduce the total area. And the total area is what dissipates heat. However, if there is dirt on the disc, the holes may offer an escape for the dirt when the brake pad is coming on.
And, of course, the holes look fancy.
I find aerodynamic a ridiculous excuse against disk brakes, they're vastly superior it basically every way.
Hambini,
You have shaken my faith in 3 cycling "values"
1, Ti is cool
2, Threaded bottom brackets rule!
3, Buy Foreign Parts through an importer (it gives you someone local to shout at, if there is a problem)!
I might have to give up on the idea of N+1? (That's a joke)
😅🤣😂😅🤣😂😅🤣😂
What is n+1
@@shawnchong2761 The new bike you need to add.
@@shawnchong2761 Current number of bikes plus one. There's also another approach to finding the correct number: D-1, the number of bikes chich will cause a divorce minus one. :D
1 and 2 are fine. I wrench my own bike. Never fucking touching pressfit. Too much a pain to deal with on a bike that I need daily. Ti is cool. The fuckup with this frame was that #3 is bullshit. I don't see spending the money on titanium, but getting it imported through a factory line. Ti is awesome, but there's a reason its expensive and that price tag is paying for the master building who knows wtf they're doing with the material. Besides, if you're going to buy a space metal forever bike, go the extra distance and get it done up custom to your exact body dimensions.
titanium is a choice of alloy in the aerospace and aviation industry for decades now. there is bad Titanium. Threaded BB's are fine its the frame threading not the BB in this instance. Hambini is making product due to asshat manufacturing
Dunno what's up with these expensive bikes, but my 30 year old Centurion straight gauge steel frame never gave me any issues. Not even rust.
That bike's done over 100.000 km in its lifetime(good to go for another 100.000).
You dunno what up. Look at that shit heap. It supposed to be a racing bike, but look at it, its got a sloping top tube and the angles of a mountain bike. There's your answer.
@@taichihead42 The CdF is by no means a racing bike
@@taichihead42 It's a touring bike. Possibly still a shit heap, but it's not a race bike.
@@taichihead42 Your idea of race geometry is 30 years old. Giant TCR introduced the sloping top tube to road race bikes ages ago.
@@taichihead42 The angle of a top tube says nothing about functionality. The obsession with level tubes is archaic and stupid. A longer seatpost extension allows more flex and comfort without any downside.
It is normal for threaded BB shells to be threaded before welding. Just go to Paragon Machine Works' catalog and see for yourself. You do use heatsinks while welding up a titanium frame to minimize heat distortion. There will be some distortion and then you face and chase the BB shell afterwards. I only build steel frames so I can't speak towards needing stress relief of titanium frames, but it is certainly not the norm for custom steel frames to be heat treated after building them, and not possible for brazed frames. I only braze my frames, which I braze out of the jig after tacking. You don't use heatsinks for brazing and there's always some BB shell distortion. After facing and chasing the shell, the BB runs smooth and creak free, better than any commercial frames I've had, so they perhaps don't face and chase as thoroughly as they should. Facing and chasing is done by a combo tool that does both operations along the same axis. It isn't particularly complicated or interesting and is a small part of building a frame.
A magician never reveals his ticks.
And Hambini aged 5 has Wizard sleeves🧙♀️
Great content!
Hambini, can you please make a video on what to look for, when a customer is about to buy a bike? Either a new, or a used bike.
Some basic tips on instructions, what to look for etc. How to spot serious problems and things like that.
Car channels have been doing this for years, but I have never seen a video like that for bikes.
Maybe there are some, but it is quite rate for sure.
It would be an amazing piece of contact and it would help a lot of us to avoid breaking the bank for some trash quality rubbish bike.
The mest impressive post Hambini spin test: with Shimano 105 😁
Thank you for covering Titanium bike this time.
Long ago Shimano had taken problems of faulty BB shell up with cartridge BB.
Had let that go in returns for lighter BB since.
Now we’re bringing Truly Aligned Shell back.
The brake rotor noise can be solved in about 20 seconds with a little bending.
Exactly a little tweak with a adjustable spanner to sort it
My Prime DUB BSA BB is the best BB I’ve ever had. It’s a year old and not fooked. Which for me, off road in the UK, is quite impressive. So sometimes cheap ain’t too bad.
good work on the fix, on the rotors
i often find the shimano rotors with the big spider (ice tech 3 piece braking surface, alloy sandwich) versus the normal center lock ones with the small spider fitted to that one are much straighter and don't rub as much.
being center lock he can also get the ice tech freeza rotos wtih the center heatsink where there alloy core is extended inwards.
I decided on smashing the like button, well the choices were very limited 🤣 👍👌
As always. Great stuff. Simple solution when you have the engineering to carry out the fix. Happy owner I am sure.
I find that a duck’s opinion of me is very much influenced over whether or not I have bread.
Crap de Fer - meaning iron-shit. Not a bad name at all.
I loved your "family friendly" restraint when describing the advantages of ceramic bearings at 13:35
I think George Russell is the favourite PowerPoint man of the UK 💁
Owner of that bike still needs to sort out the disk rub. Good god riding that thing must be like riding sandpaper.
Not that much is lost, as it is linear with speed, but I agree. I CAN'T stand rubbing discs
It's part of the experience, adds realism. You can't have everything perfect, that's boring.
🤣🤣🤣Every time you say HELLOOOOO!! i,m having a jolt on my cauch! Very informative and interesting channel thought . Good work Hambini
'Pen is working' will never ever get old. 😁
Every hand built bike I have owned. Braze or weld in BB shell. Stress relieve if welded, thread and face. No mass production, simples. Probably why one of them is 32 years old and still the same weight as an entry level modern disk.
Great vid, nice princess pink pointy pencil.
Chris
I've heard really good things about Genesis in regards to their customer service and support - in particular from a friend who managed to break his frame somewhere in SE Asia during an around-the-world ride. They sent him a new frame, no questions asked, all the way across the globe to him.
It's disappointing to see this sort of manufacturing fault from them, but I'm curious to know if he contacted them about it and if he did; what did they have to say about it?
Interesting and educational video either way!
Interesting how one would think a broken frame and replacement is a "Good Thing". Why not finish the trek on the same frame you started - that is good thing/frame. Now both you and Hambini have shared two fundamental defects. Having just worked on a Vintage Litespeed (headset bearings, not Frame) I can attest there is no comparison in the metal working craftsmanship of these Ti frames.
@@bimmerbent You completely misunderstood my comment. I never said a broken frame was a good thing at any point. I said that the customer service was good and that they were willing to replace the frame anywhere in the world - my point being that the frame in Hambini's video might have been eligible for the same service.
@Maciej Jan Długosz Then my point is even more relevant.... Why wouldn't you warranty this frame?
@Maciej Jan Długosz I don't give a shit what YOU do - my original comment was regarding the frame in the video. 🤷♂️
litespeed are shite....don't stand behind their products and warranty them.
He also needs a serious bike fit, or does he like a high polish on the crank?
My tibia was hurting just looking at that.
No idea how people can ride like that for so long. 🤦🏼♂️ bike fit asap!
I assemble bikes for another brand in the UK who also source their titanium frames in the Far East. I'm ashamed to say, almost every titanium frame I work with has this problem. I haven't the skills to fix it though, and my employer doesn't seem interested. Don't buy cheap ti frames .
A cheap Ti frame= oxymoron.
£4,999.99 for the full bike is not "that" cheap
the ti frame from genesis is not really cheap .... ! not like you would buy from aliexpress to say the least.
@@nr619 cost and quality don’t always correspond appropriately. I’d stick with quality steel over low-mid grade Ti. A nice heat treated steel frame is lighter than straight gauge Ti. It’s also easier to work with regards to your bike mechanic. If a thread needs chasing or something it’s just far more user friendly than Ti 9 (or carbon). Good Ti, Al, steel, Aluminum… are all good. If a problem happens steel is the most user friendly - by a huge margin of any of them. Many problems with bikes are from the factory and others are from use or poor wrenching. Steel is the most user friendly. User friendly is good. The weight difference between steel and the other materials with the reputation of lighter weight is mostly BS and hype - assuming good heat treated steel.
in what range of prices are we talking when you say "cheap" ti frames? :D
Both my Genesis branded steel frames have seat tubes with bad post slippage. Never had that on any other bike. Resorted to homemade shims.
Hambini states the frame is made in Taiwan. The Genesis website states the following regarding where their bikes are made:
All our bikes are designed at our HQ in Milton Keynes but we’re extremely proud to be able to use some expert workshops in Vietnam and Indonesia for production. All our frames are put together by hand in batches and then assembled before being shipped over to our warehouse.
The sticker on this frame says made in Taiwan
Didn't know I needed to come across you! That was a good video 😂
Great to see a vid on ti frames. Not all cheapo ti frames are crap - i have a Waltly bought direct from the factory in China for 600 GBP to my own spec and geometry. Well nearly. I copied the geometry from the Enigma Escape. Looks amazing and everything works great. Except the top tube doesn't hit the headtube flush - it's about 1mm out. Erm, yes i know - I'll buy Enigma next time...
Quite surprised you didn't use anti-seize on those BB threads. Thanks for the video.
Anodized aluminum is non-conductive and won't be corroded by the Ti, so grease is just fine.
Maybe he did with that Mobil grease but didn't explain it properly
@@lolbubs11111 Thanks!
I want to have a messed up bike frame just to watch Hambini fix it!
Great! Go Hambini 🥰
+10 points to gryffindor for correct pronunciation of Titanium. Spot on old chap
I thought titanium was named after the titans?
I'm just here to show support from the international PowerPoint community.
Good fix, that's a tough situation. Logically I know one of those bearings is reverse threads but it still looks weird seeing you spin them in together. lol
The saddest thing is that the bike looks absolutely beautiful.
Dreading the day hambini gets his hands On One of my bikes
Interesting, I have a steel Croix de Fer which looks to be the same vintage as this Ti one and it seems to have a similar, if not the same bottom bracket shell issue. It’s eating through non drive side BB cups.
Love your fix... Would buy your BB someday , the only problem is it's half the price of my bike 😊... Can you do a video on LLB wheelset bearing Vs normal bearing how much is the actual gain due to less friction and for holding the speed
I'm starting to dread that opening "Hello" but I am transfixed by the rest.
In the U.S. genesis bikes are a Walmart or big box store brand. Didn't expect them to make anything in titanium.
Not the same brand at all in the UK/Europe mate.
@@bikerdavecycling are we sure? There's not a low end for profit only? All made in Taiwan.
Frame jigs, for the most part only retain the alignment if the frame (within the bounds of jig accuracy/stiffness & opperater skill) they generally can not stop tube destortion and/or shrinkage of materials due to welds.
What can "help reduce" distortion, out of round, etc are heatsinks in the form of an bronze expanding mandrel with back purge.
I have no clue how your able to tell on a frame made from Ti, steel, stainless or ally visually if it's been "Stress Relieved" as you keep talking about (unless there was an obvious blackening/blueing of the steel), especially as most frames are painted, and in raw Ti or Stainless its brushed, polished or bead blasted.
Yes PWHT absolutely has to happen in Aluminium frame building, less so in steel as its usually 4130 or a derivative of that with additional elements like Niobium, Ti, molybdenum etc to gain differing properties.
Even highly stressed parts like chassis, suspension arms, roll-cages etc are not heat treated in 4130 or similar unless it's thicker than 3-4mm.
Also, during the tube manufacturing process for most bicycle specific tube sets/materials (not aluminium) the final temper of the material is gained through drawing.
When TIG welding or brazing tube like this the temper of the tube is deminished (typically anneiled slightly) and a high level of operator skill is required to create a sound weldment whilst limiting the reduction in desired tube characteristics.
PWHT in many cases would, when above AC1 temp for carbon steel (high carbon equivalency) create a totally different grain structure to the material, (as its closer to the utectic point) this may be undesirable.
Some steel tubes from manufacturers like Reynolds, Tange, Columbus, Dedachi (spelling) do produce some tubes that are heat treated as part of the tube manufacturing process but not as a requirement of frame production.
Many big manufacturers can and do PWHT things like high end bmx or jump bike frames in 4130, but as most manufacturers in Ti and Stainless are smaller volume and often entirely bespoke builds they don't always PWHT frames.
Many builders in steel tube as "bespoke frame builders" use Fillet or Lug Braze, the temperatures to melt the Bronze and Silver solders is typically between 450°C - 700°C (and again volume of production counts here too), with AC1 being C. 720°C this makes brazed or Silver Soldered frames impossible.
Of course we're slightly going apples to oranges here, between bespoke one-off builds and maufacting of thousands of the same model. But my point still holds. The majority of bikes on the mass production lines of even the best manufacturers are either Aluminium or Carbon Fiber as you know.
Aluminium usually needs a full anneile process post weld, prior to any reaming, facing, alignment etc, then is sent to be solution treated to artificially age the material back to - T6.
Incase anyone thinks ima some ranting crackpot, I'm 15 years in the trade, welded for defence, nuclear, scientific instruments, a very large folding bike brand in the uk, have my own business and have built multiple steel frames with TIG, brass and silver.
Great videos as usual.
@RollinRat good for you man, hope you can get some enjoyable experiences from it and at least break even 🤙
The day I can glance at metal and determine its grain structure or internal stress level.... will be quite a day!
I think he just chased the threads and increased the clearance for this fix. Nothing to do with stress relieving. I really doubt he built up the bore, stress relieved it, re- machined it and then cut new threads. But if anybody else hadn't done that, I have a feeling he would have said they were cutting corners and should have.
@RollinRat worked nuclear/defense for a bit, we had many materials in bonded stores that were Tripple remelted in a vaccum and had the exact metallurgy tweeked to absolute precision for the job specification, then there were stress-relieved before machining the pree weld parts that were then x-ray'd on the weld, stress-relived an D machined again, mental, and we couldn't have a trace of chlorine or chlorides or it messed up the metal! Sounds like you do/did some seriously fine limit work, cudos brother.
Top job youngster 👍
Have you got any plans to show us your Time Scylon soon? Is it built yet?
A few moons ago i bought a Boardman alloy racer a Halfords jobby, second hand, union jack, turned it over & stick on the under side BB made in Taiwan.
A Halfords jobbie - like that, hahaha!
Sweet fix!
If you can get your hands on a USA-made caad frame that would be lovely. Always wondered if they were precise knowing that they were made in the US.
Thank you.
I really enjoyed the truth about junk you have to repair.
I dealt with scientific gear that was TRASH!
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
Cracked me up the pen test.
Good job HAMBINI 👍
How the hell can you tell it hasn't been stress relieved just by looking at it??? Please explain!
Ya cant. All you can do is to check if its been signed off as having gone through a relieving process at the appropriate temp and time
Thanks!
Next you'll be telling me I need to stress-relieve my frame made of Reynolds/Columbus/Dedacciai TIG-welded alloyed-steel bicycle frame tubing. Serious BB thread "Tapping" tools have a very solid alignment shaft to align the left-side tap to the right-side tap. As a framebuilder, I cannot buy an untapped BB shell. I can however buy a whole range of tapped BB shells. The premier worldwide supplier of Ti BB shells sells only ...... threaded BB shells. The distortion you see there (which is pretty awful) would have been dealt with by a proper sharp BB-tapping tool (but you wouldn't have gotten to sell one of your BB's .... wink). The thread would have become "looser", however when the ends which no doubt were not parallel were also faced (with the professional tool which also has a dirty great alignment shaft in it too....), the final result is that there is enough wiggle-room in the thread for the cups to be held in alignment when they clamp against the perfectly-squared "faced" edges of the BB shell. If you *think* a loose BB shell thread "might" result in a stripped thread, then you need to look at cheap steel frames made in.... taiwan. They have "loose" threads and they do not strip. They don't get tight-fitting cups when moderate distortion is present. Nor do they appear to face the BB shell.... a mass-production shortcut. My 2 cents as full-time framebuilder and degree'd mechanical engineer. BTW, I do not know of a titanium frame made "in the west" that goes anywhere near heat after welding.... The biggest problem with titanium frames is the failure to use butting (which is very common in "steel" frame tubes) to adequately address points of localised stress-concentration.... i.e. the welds. Why don't steel frames need the incredibly-precise welds that Ti frames apparently do....?
Simple answer; this frame was clearly not tapped post-welding with a sharp, self-aligning BB thread tap tool. Cyclus, Park, Unior make 'em.
Bespoke prices in the uk do not add up to a bespoke product is my experience. Reynold produce in my opinion the finest and certainly expensive Ti tubesets custom drawn to final frame size i rang around a few frame builders would they weld the frame to aircraft spec ie impuritys etc nope didnt need it apparently though Moots do it let alone machining a BB lol did these builder have city & guilds welding with gasoxy or secondly tig let alone aircraft cert where they would earn more lel I didnt bother asking. Their prices and marketing implied they were truly a bespoke service the reality not. I would prefer a craftsman to make my frames over a professional engineer
Good points there. That frame could have easily been corrected with the standard tooling stated by e f g. Most all ti bottom brackets start threaded and should be chased post-weld. Most of these frames are also not faced for concentricity as well. I've repaired dozens of them.
I’d add that ti frames are not welded in a fixture, but tacked only in the fixture, unlike brazed or fillet-welded steel frames. The stresses built up during welding are primarily caused by poor mitering, poor heat control, poor weld sequence and changing wall thicknesses of material.
All metal welded frames have distorted bottom brackets after welding. Once they have been chased, however, the internal portion of the shell contact points should be round or near round as the chasing process will cut threads in the ovalized portion of the shell. You’re left with a near-circle internal diameter while the external circumference remains egg-shaped, due to the chainstays being welded, usually within 5mm of the shell edge.
I’m also not aware of any heat-treatment of ti frame from any manufacturer, Far East, USA or otherwise. Anything above 600°C and you get into beta transus which can become active for contaminants.
Disclosure: full-time professional ti builder
I really enjoy this man's skill and humor. What I don't understand is the thing with the hairdresser. ?
Love it !!! Always good to point out just how to often bike companies are taking the piss
Loved it !
Wow. Just. Wow!
i would love to hear your thoughts on the Ibis Hakka MX. it is a carbon frame with a threaded BB.
Thank you!
...huh, no mention of the unused Garden Tools adorning your wall. Somebody will be needing to get busy soon...
BTW - thanks for All the info...
Don't mind discs, if you want zero rub, change to mechanical discs, discs extend wheel life, basically to indefinite, in any case couple watts of rub is neither here nor there Chris froome
Well done. Night and day. -U10
Hambini time !!
YOU ARE THE MAN!!! CHEERS✌
Wow, I stumbled across this video a week or two ago. I just happened to be ordering a custom made titanium frame off of Alibaba and when they told me that they would begin welding the next day, since I saw this video, I let them know that I want to make sure that the BB is still round and not oval after welding. Today the company messaged me that the weld did not turn out properly, that the BB became oval. So now instead of creating a new BB that is CNC'd 2mm, they are going to 3d print the BB to 2.1mm and they believe that the slight increase in thickness will prevent the ovalizing. I asked if they thread the BB before or after welding and according to them it's before :| I sent the person a link to this video, not sure if they also do the stress relief. How can you tell whether the BB area was stress relieved or not?
The observation that westerners are prejudice against Chinese engineer and manufacturing is accurate. Western customers want top quality, cheap prices, and 5 star customer support. That ain't how it works folks. I believe the Chinese are excellent manufacturers that can rival or surpass anything made in the west.
When I worked in shops in the US we would always remark on the frame decals that purported loudly in Red White and BLue "DESIGNED in the USA" Above the black and white 'made in Taiwan' sticker.
You make a lot of great points in the video...actually all your videos. I will make one counterpoint however. You are fixing outliers. The only frames you measure and fix are the ones that people have problems with. I think to truly say a particular brand is crap you really need a statistically significant sample to verify the quality. To pass judgement on an entire brand based on n=1 is not really an accurate assessment.
That said your videos are awesome and extremely entertaining.
How do you know they are only outliers if you do not know how many bad frames they produced that are never sent to Hambini?
You incorrectly assume that Hambini represents the population of all or near all of the poor frames produced by any manufacturer, which he obviously does not.
@@ivanboesky1520 Some of what you state is valid. What I can tell you is this: I am a Quality Engineer with over 25 years dealing with manufacturing issues and how they result in consumer complaints. What I’m stating in this being an outlier is this frame ended up in Hambini’s video because it was identified by the end user as having an issue. You are right we have no idea about the greater population. We have to make the assumption that they must get it right most of the time, or they wouldn’t have a business. Thus this video should be understood as this is n=1, it does not represent the greater population of the manufacturers frames, but it does represent that this manufacturer has poor process controls and they are not using the correct inspection techniques to identify out of specification products and/or processes.
Surprised to see this on a Genesis, maybe a Friday afternoon job (or just someone not good with ti). I toured all over the world on a Tour de Fer and touchwood it's been really solid - did the spin test when I first built it up and the cranks spun around for ages 😀
@Maciej Jan Długosz The frame might be designed in England, and manufactured in Taiwan.
@Maciej Jan Długosz Nearly the ENTIRE bicycle frame market is manufactured in Taiwan or China. Does that upset you?!
I do love it when we get Hambini roasting a threaded BB, titanium frame. It so brings the neck beards out.
But you'll take my hydraulic disk brakes from my cold dead hands 😏
lol that's a new one, "I'm getting dropped because my bottom bracket is dragging"
From what I can tell with Ti is you are stepping up to a katana, meaning the dude that pounds the metal out makes all the difference, the quality of construction matters a ton in maximazing the properties of the material