I guess that makes the HF route even sadder for her. The fate route has her ideals fully explored and she is able to see past her obsession, on UBW we she sees this by looking at archer's past and how they're alike. But in HF, nothing was learned, her relationship with Shirou wasn't that effective because it had little time, and after she darkened and defeated by Shirou and Medusa, she'll just return to that hill with another heavy regret on her shoulders. At least that's what I think.
I thought artoria would die for real if she died even once since she's a living servant? Like she would stop existing entirely and couldn't be summoned back for any other future wars.
@@falloodaboy She won't truly die untill she gets the grail. Everytime she 'dies' in the future, she'll just return to that hill. Now, if she had forsaken the grail when Shirou struck her, then yes, it would've been her death.
Note character understanding in universe are often wrong. They think the magic works one way but it works differently. As Arthura (welsh like Arthur not the Latin fans use for her) has massive current belief in her she almost certainly will be retained as a servant even if she dies as this power of belief actually keeping fictional characters in existence. And frequently you hear memories not retained but then they are recalled meaning it more a memory block than deleting. After all everything is recorded at the root. So Arthura type of Servant will change but she will not go away. Only if humanity stops believing could she pass. ( and then you go into the cycle of rebirth or heaven/hell. Fate sticks to reincarnation most of time but for other situations allows passing to other planes no one totally destroyed by death.
@@milferdjones2573 True, human belief is a heroic spirit main source of power (for most, anyway). But the thing about her in this instance is that she didn't technically died yet. Alaya made a deal with her right before her death to serve as a 'servant' in exchange for the Holy Grail, her legend is famous, but for her to become a true servant would require for her death.
@@murilopenagoncalves3831 This can be debated on which Class/form she is summoned as. Normal Saber you are completely right, Saber Alter, Lancer, and Lancer Alter though could theoretically be summoned regardless of the sate of the loop, as they rely heavily on the beliefs and stories more then Normal Saber does, as the Alters are based on the version of her told by her enemies which depict her more as a tyrant and thus why the mud doesn't change more about her in HF, and while tied heavily to the formation of the Camelot Singularity there are versions of Arthur's tale where Excalibur is entrusted to one of the knights of the round to safe guard until the true heir can claim it, leading into the creation of a second King Arthur threw the sword in the stone being Excalibur instead of Caliburn
It's always wild to me how the Throne of Hero's works for the spirits inside it. Artoria and Emiya are basically stuck in mass graveyards that are monuments to their own failings and those around them while they wait for someone to call them for a new war or just work from Alaya in Emiya's case. All the while they have maybe seconds or minutes to mull over their new memories before being shuffled out where they have to push all this accumulated baggage/trauma to the side again. I also wonder if Alaya can influence certain outcomes to push specific people into making a contract with it so it can get new tools/Counter Guardians to utilize.
That's actually one of the many things people fear the counter force for. It's powerful as hell at pulling the strings and doesn't empathize with any one specific human. Mage's are constantly afraid they're going to be deleted not by the mage's association but just a strange confluence of events that just blind sides them and gets them killed cause that's what Alaya does 90% of the time.
@@kyleroman2744 I wouldn't say that. It actively works agianst Shiro Emiya in the HF route and whenever he does projection magic (the reason projections are a grade below the original is because the counter force is actively trying to destroy it to preserve Gaia's reality marble)
@@anothisflame8266 Thats not True.Counterforce has 2 parts .One dedicated to Alaya(in form of subtle destiny manipulation,empowerment of important Individuals and Counterguardians) and Gaian counterforce that prioritizes the planets safety(True Ancestors,Elementals and Beasts of Gaia like Primate Murder).If there was an individual that threatened the planet but guranteed Humanities Prosperity (ie Imagine someone creates a technology capable to sending Humanity as in Entire colonies to the stars but it drains the planets resources drastically to build it).It would put alaya and Gaia at Odds.
@@anothisflame8266 Theirs two part of the Counter Force, Alaya, who is dedicated to humanity; the other is Gaia, which is for the planet. I'm talking about here is Alaya, Alaya works by passively buffing some people to eliminate some threat, if worse comes to worst, Counter Guardian are summoned to blow up the whole place. And lastly, Shirou's projection is one rank lower is not cause by Gaia, it's the lack of information that causes it to be one rank lower, a great example of it would be Avalon, which he perfectly copied due to it staying inside his body for too long.
I'm really happy you made this video because I've been saying the same thing. Furthermore, I would add that the reason Artoria's ideals of kingship are childish, can be attributed to Merlin. Because, during her childhood Merlin taught Artoria basic magecraft and politics in her dreams, where he would have had a perfect opportunity to speak with Artoria about her ideals of what a King is. Furthermore, aside from Merlin, it makes sense her ideals of Kingship are stunted, because when she pulled Caliburn from the stone, it was said she became something inhuman and stopped aging. As a result, one could argue that her ideals, like her physical development, stopped, and it wasn't until Stay/Night that she eventually began to mature.
Well-said. I also feel like Artoria did some maturing during the FSN route due to her daily interactions with Shirou, and to an extent, Rin. Well, that and she LOVES Shirou's homemade food.
THATS THE THING when she lost avalon in FGO she becomes a TRUE king you can say Lion King no remorse and only saves the kingdom there you go bitches that you ideal king
I never understood why she was stuck in physical form unlike the other servants but now it makes more sense if she is technically still alive and that is her actual body.
I was helping my Aunt with sociology psych paper and one of the sections stuck in my head. It was about how leaders are defined by their circumstances. Pretty much everything Tsiah says in support of Arturia is quite literally, from a academic study perspective, is scientifically true.
Saber was the only one in the war who wanted a wish granted. Therefore she deserved the Grail more than anyone else. But you can't change the past. You can make better choices because of what happened back then, but life doesn't have a rewind button.
I think a few things attributed to and exacerbated what went down with Camelot. She definitely isn't to blamed for all of it, nor should she be hung on a cross, but I think her personality made the prophecy a self-fulfilling one. Just like Shirou, being an easily used martyr meant that she easily fell into problems that could have been solved. And her legend does tell of a few things she could get heat for, like the May Day massacre, which was a plot to end the problem of the cursed child that would end the kingdom, but those details are vague on whether she sent the children borne in May to die or be sent away. The second was in Hollow, where she mentions knowing that Guinevere loved her and kinda keeping the farce of a marriage they had going, knowing she was kinda duping a friend. So when Lancelot and Guinevere have the tryst, she privately doesn't mind as she knows she cannot give Guinevere the love she wanted. So that one is shared fault, because she ends up going along with the execution of the Queen when their affair is found out, so that's on her, but Lancelot also butchering his fellow knights in retaliation was both sad but also dumb. Plus, the whole utopia of Camelot was kinda pursed on the members not acknowledging the ugliness that lied within and doing something about it. They go over that in FGO plenty of times as well. So no, she definitely shouldn't have become like Iskandar and Gil, as they have their own crosses to bear, but being a martyr wasn't the way to go either, no matter how much the people say they wished for one, a ruler should live as a person, not a machine.
To be honest this is one of my favorite vids. I'm glad we both share like mindedness on the subject of Artoria's situation. And I'm glad that you find a way to dumb it down for simpletons (for lack of a better way of saying that) to understand the character better. Loved the vid. I didn't think there was anyone else that would understand this POV of her. Thanks.
Glad this video exists. Although, one thing, didn't Merlin tell her how things would end or, at least allude to it in Garden of Avalon? That would mean she had an idea of what would happen but, still tried to fix things anyway. It's admirable that she seriously tried within her human limitations but, a dream is still a dream at the end of the day.
Yes, Merlin prophesied to her that whoever pulls the sword, will face a terrible death and Camelot will still fall regardless. A serious warning as Merlin's prophecies are always right.
One thing, about that Merlin only said "She will face a terrible end" not the knight together with her. She basically ok with dying, if she was assassinated like Caesar and Iskandar or being blamed like EMIYA.
@@1999bazz an extra add, in the Merlin scene Artoria actually responds that she would be fine so long as people smiled (that is a constant in Nasu’s characterization of Artoria and is what creates the parallel with Shirou). So it is implied she did not think the destruction would be so terrible to extend to all her knights and citizens.
I like when she appears in Apocrypha because in one little scene you can understand that even if destiny is not gonna go easy on her, she still sees something meaningful in her path. In her Fate. To take that path again even knowing what it holds... Is really something to respect.
No, I agree with you about the King's banquet. It's clear the writers for F/Z didn't understand Artoria all that well. And both Gilgamesh and Alexander conveniently forgot about their own myriad shortcomings of their own rule (Gilgamesh was hated by the gods and Alexander's empire dissolved the moment he died) while criticizing Artoria, and Artoria for whatever reason just sat there and took the abuse instead of arguing back. Definitely not in her character at all. Especially when her personal convictions are the strongest out of arguably any Servant. The truth is, Artoria was greatly loved and respected by those that followed her, that much is obvious by ANY of the Knights of the Round Table's dialogue. But she held herself and others to an inhumanly perfect standard, and that's what eventually broke her followers that couldn't live up to such a lofty and unobtainable ideal. That's what makes the Camelot Singularity so tragic. She's finally achieved that ideal, but at the same time thrown away the last dregs of her humanity for the sake of an inhuman perfection that comes with far too great a cost.
I agree with you on the she should’ve been more combative when they got on her like they did but they never once forgot they’re shortcomings (at least Iskandar definitely didn’t) Iskandar mentions his failures n says he doesn’t regret them. That’s what it was about the fact that she regretted and tried to change the outcome that her leadership brought. The whole point was that she never showed them how to live or really led them in the first place. So the banquet makes complete sense to me
The Kings Banquet is probably my favourite episode in all of Fate Zero, but it really does feel like the episode goes out of its way to completely shit on her sacrifice. This is a perfect video to watch after listening to the Garden of Avalon CD Drama.
hmm to me it always felt like what the banquet was trying to do is make artoria face her flaws, some of which led to the downfall of her kingdom, and while yes gilgamesh's and iskandar's also had a tragic ending the point was that they accepted that while she didn't. So yes they made mistakes and apparently theyre just shitting on her but they at least accepted the end result and are simply pointing out some of her flaws as a king from their point of view and showing why her decision to try changing the past is not something a king should ever do
@@Storn_ if this is the part that they emphasized then the banquet would be a good scene, but Iskandar calling Saber's ideals childish and worthless, now that's another matter
@@kyleroman2744 well that’s just his opinion tbh, it isn’t necessarily the anime calling her out as much as it’s what he thinks of her, and to an extent he is right since she has an extremely idealized opinion of what is a king is and that had consequences on the outcome that Camelot ended up facing but even this is just my opinion, at no point do they really tell you who is right but the scene does make her face some of the flaws she has and that’s the point of it imo
@@Storn_ well for me, Iskandar has a point, really but after he declared Saber he does not recognized Saber as a King, my opinion of him definitely went down
@@kyleroman2744 sure but that isn’t a problem with the scene as much as it is a problem you have with iskandar’s opinion, the scene itself did a good job imo
The king's banquet is one of the most BS thing i have ever read. They just gang up on her and talk like children about how their "awesome nations" but in fact , one is ruled later when reality slap his golden cheek and another collapsed right after he dies. Both didn't last, much like Saber's. Saber did her best, but a bunch of personal frustrations lead to an outburst of consequences which cause her kingdom to fall. Thank you for pointing this out, my man!
What i got from there conversation is that a king should never have regrets on there rule. That's how the whole conversation started with saber saying her wish to rider and gil and also her basically calling rider wish dumb. Imo on her rule even if I put myself in her situation there are situations she could had handled better. Not saying the knights of round carry no blame some of the knights of the round carry the same amount of blame as saber did. For example tristan can you actually blame him not accepting lancelot help because this the same lancelot who took the kings wife and who injured him and killed his two brothers and lancelot being a big reason for mordred to spread the news to Britain about what's happening and cause an outrage no i can't blame him. That was an completely human emotion that tristan had not trusting lancelot and not accepting his help now sure if lancelot was there king Arthur wouldn't had died thats the only regret tristan has. To saber there where situations was out her control but there where situations she could had handled lancelot situation alot better. The same as when mordred told her she/him was her/his child which she just walked away. The kings conversation was not about her being a bad king because being a good or bad king is personal opinion but it was about her having regrets about her past her history.
How do you think the Fifth Holy Grail War could have played out if it was delayed by another 10 years, taking place in the 2010s instead of the 2000s? How different would things be? Would like to hear your thoughts on that.
Imagine shirou coming home from his job, seeing servants fighting and joining the grail war meeting a probably married rin, and it'll probaby go like heaven feels
Shit would become main stream media in an instant and people would panic to hell and the US army would probably step in and the entire region would self destruct itself due to "gas leaks" Emiya would probably be less stupid at the beginning stages of the war but it depends on how much further he got into his Magecraft skills and with Avalon still being inside him he'd probably have a easier time making something like a fake Caliburn Rin would probably be at the clock tower at this point, Shinji being more of a prick, Sakura either dead or manifest the grail like in HF, Illya probably kills off Shirou wayy before the war or has the upper hand since Shirou has no one to team up with, Caster's master wouldn't be the teacher guy but still probably end up at the temple, don't know about Assassin, Gilgamesh would probably be still fucking around Also without Rin, Shirou would most likely never have known about the church so he would never have the relationship with Kirei is my guess and Angra Mainyu manifests and without Rin to summon Archer and give Shirou advice or sacrifice himself in dire situations, he wouldn't grow much as a character and the entire Earth would've probably end due to Kirei eventually and maybe then Shirou would probably meet him exchange names and have their fight or whatever but Gilgamesh would kill them all because no way in hell are they projecting Avalon in this timeline I didn't take Shirou's goal to become a "Hero or justice" in account because if he did, he'd probably left Japan too and gone elsewhere I mean we're talking about 10 years, these student's would be in their late 20's at that point, also Emiya would've probably marry Fujimura or his part time job partner but that's besides the point
@@nightshrine4257 would be funny to see that people who actually witnessed it who didn't get their memories wiped would be dubbed as deranged conspiracy theorists "I saw some supernatural ghosts thingies that fought with magic stuff at night and caused the damage to the city!!" And they're just dismissed or told off for being delusional
The kings banquette is a wonderful piece of writing, the 3 kings all possess a fundamental quality of a king. The 3 each hold a quality the others miss and combine to be the ideal king
Terrible execution tho, just comes off as bastardizing Sabers character for the sake of hyping up the other two. Like many instances in Zero it could have been handled much better.
@@infinitezion2029 nah, they are fully right imo. For that matter saber and shiro are basically the same in the ways that they are wrong. That is not to say that iskandar and Gilgamesh (especially that version) are saints though XD
@@wouterlansdaal2337 the only reason they seem right for even a moment despite Iskandar literally being a hypocrite is because Zero saber is barely saber at all. The scene only works cuz she's written in a way that goes entirely against who Artoria is in every other piece of type moon media. FZero saber is basically Artoria Lily but made insanely stupid so the other characters can constantly remind her of how dumb she is.
My take is that she was so righteous and so perfect that it maked her not being able to understand their people like not punishing lancelot or not understanding modred feelings that is also recognized by herself personally i love the three kings talk also need to realize gil and iskandar have different ideologies and ways to rule that aren't necessarily right.
@@kyleroman2744 The problem with Mordred wasn't that she was an illegitimate child Artoria didn't remember having, but that she didn't possess the qualities of a successor in Artoria's eyes. Honestly Camelot would've burned to the ground the same way under Mordred's rule as it did as a result of her rebellion.
Ah, yes, the banquet. The most stupidly wanked scene in all the franchise, leading to misinterpretation of Saber's whole character... Good job, Urobuchi.
@@jonnymarcia4403 The problem is Urobuchi completely rewrote her character to fit that idea, she's totally different in the original. Plus Iskandar's point and braggadocious attitude are plain bullshit, as he himself lead to the downfall of his kingdom in order to pursue a stupid dream.
The Saber and Archer section is honestly one of the big reasons why I personally prefer them as a couple (years later in FGO) over Fate Shirou and Saber bc Archer can relate and understand all of what Saber has gone through on a level Fate Shirou simply cannot. There’s also the fact that Saber was the only person Archer still remembered after initially being summoned to Fuyuki, thinking fondly of her
Damn, that's a freaking a great showcase of the character's virtue in 8 mins. As a loyal Saber stan, I'm happy hearing you setting the record straight. I feel similar to you to the banquet, though I do feel there's some truth to Saber being detached from her people as it's pointed out in VN that she had to somewhat become inhuman to be able do the right things leading to her not being able to relate completely to common folks. Though, the banquet does paint a far too weak image of Saber with all she had to live through. I feel at minimum she should be able to respond to Gil and Iskandar something interesting instead of simply experiencing despair.
No no, I absolutely agree with you on the king's speech. Gil and Iskandar have no idea what they are talking about, they are just pulling stuff out their rear and then all the morons hear it and get wet. Its annoying and listening to it or someone praising it gives me a goddamn conniption Gil and Iskandar are completely ignorant to Artoria's situation and are just trying to force their ideals on her because they are narcissists, simple as that. People just simp for them and try to make it look like they have a poing
Yo this is incredible and honestly I thonk the reason why the grail came to her was because of her pure heart. Like you said she's sacred and has genuine good intentions and wanted to right her wrongs and each time she tries she only is s hairs breath away feom accomplishing it .
Oh my god bro not that this video isn't very well-done analysis i just feel like rewatching fate zero because of that finale command Kiritsugu gave remembering it gives chills. Also thinking about the idea that Saber remembers being a servant because she was alive the whole time makes sense.
Don't sweat LB6 too much, that Morgan is almost entirely unrelated to main Morgan, even having different origins/back stories. Not to mention there is a certain retcon introduced that really messes with Camelot's timeline.
What i got from is not calling saber a bad king because calling someone a bad or good king is a personal opinion but the kings banquet was about no king should have regrets about the decision they made or how the rule ended. Literally the whole conversation about saber rule was when Iskandar talked about his wish and saber called his wish foolish than they talk down to her because her wish was to change her history her rule.
Iirc, FSN and FZ Saber is kind of inconsistent like, FSN Saber is so resolved in her beliefs and never swayed unlike her FZ version where she got easily shaken when Iskandar criticized her. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not really that knowledgeable about Fate lore.
No that’s right one of the biggest flaws of zero is how contradictory artoria character is between the 2 series but when you talk to some zero wankers they will literally act like gen developed her character more and ignore the inconsistencies
So is the happy artoria after stay night happy ending real the one waiting for Shirou in Avalon and also where exactly is Avalon and also how many years after were the reunited because I have feelings it's after the world has been destroyed or something otherwise how the heck does Emiya break his contract of being a servant
The one that's in Avalon is the Fate Artoria as Last Episode says she's been waiting for Shirou. Avalon is in the Reverse Side of the World. It's basically a pocket dimension within the Reverse Side which is another plane of existence itself apart from the normal physical world. Shirou meets her after a decade or two at most since the life as a hero of justice is a relatively short one. He dies and Merlin helps him enter Avalon. Meanwhile Artoria is sent back to her time and has to wait in Avalon for around 1500 years. Counter Guardian/ Heroic Spirit EMIYA isn't the same person as Fate route Shirou. EMIYA is essentially a failed Fate Shirou who never got Artoria to accept herself and allow herself to feel (or confess to him), so he never had any other motivation in his life besides his ideal. Fate Shirou did save Saber and he kept pursuing her alongside being a hero of justice so he never accepted a deal with the counter force. TL;DR: Archer is forever stuck as a counter guardian while Fate Shirou is happily spending his afterlife with Saber in Avalon.
@@psychophate Got it, never knew Avalon was located in the reverse side of the world that one was some new info, so basically after Fate stay night ends Artoria is sent back to her time but this time she properly passes on and dies and moves on inside Avalon waiting for Shirou basically right?
@@psychophate Man truly the most genuine of waifus 😭 Saber is the truly the best 😭 and the more you think about how her kingdom got destroyed the more you realise both Gilgamesh and Iskandar didn't even have to go through half of that shit in their lives, Iskandar really had a good life as a king which is why his attitude at his life and the attitude of his soldiers are like that as for Gilgamesh well the guy literally divided the world of gods and humans into two which caused the fall of his kingdom but he truly didn't give a fuck because the fact that a story ends is better than a everlasting story to him
The only thing she did wrong was not explaining anything to Mordred... Which is acceptable when you learn that your sister used your whatever to make a child and that child was under your nose and one of your trusted knights. I'd be baffled and be mad too. Still she shouldn't have cut the past connection she had with Mordred in a fit of rage
Is it possible that " The World" created the circumstances that would eventually push Artoria into accepting the Contract for the purpose of recalling her in the future for a specific purpose? Kinda like a Behelit from Berserk but neutral.
Quantum Time Locks are thing in which certain events are set in stone and can't be messed with. Camelot's fall happens to be one as it's essentially the last dying breath of the era of mystery that was holding on by a thread after the gods were gone. The counterforce probably decided to benefit from it by nabbing another useful person. But Camelot was gonna fall regardless.
I just realize that Saber seeking the Holy Grail is similar to Gilgamesh's seeking the immortal herb and both didn't achieve the things that they seek but found a better reward for themselves at the end
I just think it's suspicious that Artoria even had such a weapon in the first place. I mean think about Excalibur and Rhongomyniad, and exactly how powerful these weapons were, and the seals on them. Artoria in her Lifetime with the exception of the Camelot Lostbelt, never had any reason to use even a fraction of their true power of Excalibur, and never needed to interfere with the " World pillars". It could've been any powerful sword but she was chosen as wielder for Divine Constructs that would never see their true use in Camelot. It makes Artoria's whole story and the fall of Camelot seem like a tragic sacrifice to get Artoria become a Counter guardian showing up in the 4th and 5th Fuyuki Grail war with the Exact weapon needed to destroy the Corrupted Grail, as well as Avalon ending up with Shirou that eventually form the foundation for his magecraft and he too Also would get contracted by the Planet after having possession of a Divine Construct and and having regrets upon his death.
@@markwalker091 Reminds me of Solomon, "God" literally planned all of it and Alaya was the one contracted both Shirou and Artoria, I think, especially Shirou
Dude hell no. Saber is bloody awesome, she's the type of character that succeeds and then life flips the table and say lol nope. It's like winning against a rigged game, you won but the other person declares himself as the winner anyway.
I honestly think this is the real crime of the 2006 F/SN anime adaptation being so bad. This anime spent so much time trying to “square peg-round hole” key content from UBW and HF into the Fate route that it completely missed the boat on what the Fate route was really about - namely, the things that were mentioned about Artoria in this video. And because people don’t have the context of Artoria’s motivations from a properly adapted Fate route, it leads people into thinking she’s an “unlikeable” character. Because I do have context of the Fate route (I watched someone “let’s play” the VN), I have a lot more respect for her thought processes, even if I still think she’s wrong, and watching her slowly change her mindset through the route, to the point when Kotomine offers her the Grail and all she has to do is betray Shiro, she outright rejects Kotomine because everything has finally clicked into place in her mind. Really one of the biggest reasons why ufotable readapting the Fate route is one of the highest spots on my anime wish list.
This living servant concept never came back wich is weird since you could use it to evade the counter force I just want expansions. Like is there a timeline where Emiya himself has a living servant counterpart Or Angra Mainyu since his spirit form could theoretically exist making him still alive.
We have the concept of living servants but just altered, like Bedivere being nothing but a husk after hundreds of years, Mash being a Demi servant who uses the power of a servant but is NOT said servant, or Erice who was born from a Servant (somehow).
@@stisselux9371 Seig and Jeanne will reunite in the reverse side of the world but not really Avalon, that's why I said neighbors, while Merlin is the neet uncle that barely exits his room
Alot of people say the WORLD did 'this' and 'That' and for whatever reasons, and I immediately hear NASU did 'this' and 'that' for plot reasons. Great vid 👍
I'm not really in Fate storyline, even playing FGO, I like to see the fights but I never go in depth of anything that's happening n I think it's fine, I just like to collect waifus n spread the Arturia supremacy
What are all the mediums that fate has like games, novels, manga, anime and more? Like what types like redline. Bc I’ve been wanting to find more fate stories and that. Even if there’s a site that has them to would be great.
The Banquet scene serves one purpose: To filter those understand Saber and those who don't. Those who understand her, just hate that scene me included, I know the scene wanted to convey, "You should accept the past" but it went ina comical fanfiction character bashing mode, that I hate it. Those who think that scene is "Genius" or "Good" is the reason I can't take F/Z seriously. I always interpreted Tristan infamous speech "The king does not understand the hearts of men" as someone who can't see how much Artoria hides her emotions, her sorrow to them. Her hurt. The whole Irony of "inhuman" is that Artoria never could give away her humanity, internally she cared too much. I like Mordred, but she so f*cked with the "I'm your son, can I have the throne?" What did she expect? Sure Artoria could have explained it better, but she did not shun her.
can u plz make a video explaining bediveres situation on FGO. Im still unsure as to how he was still alive after all those years. and if its something miniscule anybody can just reply to this comment. thanks
That Bedivere especifically was an alternative timeline version where Bedivere never throws Excalibur to the lake. When he returns he can not find King Arthur any more and proceeds to expend centuries trying to find her soul. Excalibur itself kept Bedivere alive but it’s holy power eventually eroded his soul and by the time of the Camelot Singularity he was about to vanish from it’s influence.
not accepting modred as her child and as one of her people. is what makes her a bad king. she failed mordred dont even pretend Alexander life was flawless and had no pain. most of all the servants are there because they have regrets and want to wish them away. like nero, like mordred, like atoria she wishes she did better.
Why did World choose Arturia, Its simple, world want to earn Emiya and is only possible if Saber meets shirou who will then go onto form contract with the world
I know its fanfiction but in Fate/Empire of dirt is that scathach is that in the celti history never died what is with Heroes that never died in ther legends
The events weren't out of her control, with authority she had she could've stopped it from happening. Like actually planning on getting a proper heir even if it was mordred, she could've trained her to become one. Example, Sulaiman of the ottoman empire literally killed his own son to stop any future usurpation for his heir. And another example for the byzantines, they literally faced revolt after revolt while holding out against the Bulgars and the Muslim. More specifically when Leo III became the emperor, the Muslims were literally besieging the capital with their biggest army ever seen since then, while the armies of Anatolia couldn't do much.
Did you just want her to become edgy, isn't. And really dude, who would accept when a child suddenly appeared in your doorstep calling herself your son and heir?
@@kyleroman2744 also she could've adopted to that was an option, most of the 5 good emperors of rome were adopted too by the respective previous emperors
Except I don’t know bout you but she never saw mordred as her kid nor did she have any reason to. Morgan was her mother and no matter wat Morgan would find a way to fuck everything up. Also I don’t know why people expect her to basically accept someone who she’s only saw as nothing more as a good knight and flip the script and act like a full blown parent when artoria doesn’t really know what that means. Her not accepting mordred makes way more sense and regardless of wat would’ve happened things would’ve still flopped
@@amari7782 the biggest flaw in your argument is that Mordred didn't want her as a parent. She just wanted her to acknowledge her as kid and as a result the next Ruler. Artoria basically told her to fuck off, mordred was happy to continue as a knight. No matter what Morgan did if Artoria had simply handled the situation better Mordred would have stood by her, she literally refused to follow Morgan's plan for most her life.
@@kinglace3782 Who in the right mind would suddenly gave all his/her hardwork to his/her self-proclaimed child? Theirs no DNA test at those times, bro.
I guess that makes the HF route even sadder for her. The fate route has her ideals fully explored and she is able to see past her obsession, on UBW we she sees this by looking at archer's past and how they're alike. But in HF, nothing was learned, her relationship with Shirou wasn't that effective because it had little time, and after she darkened and defeated by Shirou and Medusa, she'll just return to that hill with another heavy regret on her shoulders. At least that's what I think.
I thought artoria would die for real if she died even once since she's a living servant? Like she would stop existing entirely and couldn't be summoned back for any other future wars.
@@falloodaboy She won't truly die untill she gets the grail. Everytime she 'dies' in the future, she'll just return to that hill. Now, if she had forsaken the grail when Shirou struck her, then yes, it would've been her death.
Note character understanding in universe are often wrong. They think the magic works one way but it works differently.
As Arthura (welsh like Arthur not the Latin fans use for her) has massive current belief in her she almost certainly will be retained as a servant even if she dies as this power of belief actually keeping fictional characters in existence.
And frequently you hear memories not retained but then they are recalled meaning it more a memory block than deleting. After all everything is recorded at the root.
So Arthura type of Servant will change but she will not go away. Only if humanity stops believing could she pass. ( and then you go into the cycle of rebirth or heaven/hell. Fate sticks to reincarnation most of time but for other situations allows passing to other planes no one totally destroyed by death.
@@milferdjones2573 True, human belief is a heroic spirit main source of power (for most, anyway). But the thing about her in this instance is that she didn't technically died yet. Alaya made a deal with her right before her death to serve as a 'servant' in exchange for the Holy Grail, her legend is famous, but for her to become a true servant would require for her death.
@@murilopenagoncalves3831 This can be debated on which Class/form she is summoned as. Normal Saber you are completely right, Saber Alter, Lancer, and Lancer Alter though could theoretically be summoned regardless of the sate of the loop, as they rely heavily on the beliefs and stories more then Normal Saber does, as the Alters are based on the version of her told by her enemies which depict her more as a tyrant and thus why the mud doesn't change more about her in HF, and while tied heavily to the formation of the Camelot Singularity there are versions of Arthur's tale where Excalibur is entrusted to one of the knights of the round to safe guard until the true heir can claim it, leading into the creation of a second King Arthur threw the sword in the stone being Excalibur instead of Caliburn
Man I've been following this channel for like 4 years now im glad that it's still bringing out fresh content.
the more you think about Saber's story, the more tragic and beautiful it gets.
She is my favorite character from the main FSN and FZ timeline.
Agreed. In my head canon, she gets the Grain in FSN and wishes to stay with Shirou, which effectively removes her from any more future Grail wars.
It's always wild to me how the Throne of Hero's works for the spirits inside it. Artoria and Emiya are basically stuck in mass graveyards that are monuments to their own failings and those around them while they wait for someone to call them for a new war or just work from Alaya in Emiya's case. All the while they have maybe seconds or minutes to mull over their new memories before being shuffled out where they have to push all this accumulated baggage/trauma to the side again.
I also wonder if Alaya can influence certain outcomes to push specific people into making a contract with it so it can get new tools/Counter Guardians to utilize.
That's actually one of the many things people fear the counter force for. It's powerful as hell at pulling the strings and doesn't empathize with any one specific human. Mage's are constantly afraid they're going to be deleted not by the mage's association but just a strange confluence of events that just blind sides them and gets them killed cause that's what Alaya does 90% of the time.
@@anothisflame8266 Basically Counter Force is the plot armor of every MC
@@kyleroman2744 I wouldn't say that. It actively works agianst Shiro Emiya in the HF route and whenever he does projection magic (the reason projections are a grade below the original is because the counter force is actively trying to destroy it to preserve Gaia's reality marble)
@@anothisflame8266 Thats not True.Counterforce has 2 parts .One dedicated to Alaya(in form of subtle destiny manipulation,empowerment of important Individuals and Counterguardians) and Gaian counterforce that prioritizes the planets safety(True Ancestors,Elementals and Beasts of Gaia like Primate Murder).If there was an individual that threatened the planet but guranteed Humanities Prosperity (ie Imagine someone creates a technology capable to sending Humanity as in Entire colonies to the stars but it drains the planets resources drastically to build it).It would put alaya and Gaia at Odds.
@@anothisflame8266 Theirs two part of the Counter Force, Alaya, who is dedicated to humanity; the other is Gaia, which is for the planet. I'm talking about here is Alaya, Alaya works by passively buffing some people to eliminate some threat, if worse comes to worst, Counter Guardian are summoned to blow up the whole place.
And lastly, Shirou's projection is one rank lower is not cause by Gaia, it's the lack of information that causes it to be one rank lower, a great example of it would be Avalon, which he perfectly copied due to it staying inside his body for too long.
I'm really happy you made this video because I've been saying the same thing. Furthermore, I would add that the reason Artoria's ideals of kingship are childish, can be attributed to Merlin. Because, during her childhood Merlin taught Artoria basic magecraft and politics in her dreams, where he would have had a perfect opportunity to speak with Artoria about her ideals of what a King is. Furthermore, aside from Merlin, it makes sense her ideals of Kingship are stunted, because when she pulled Caliburn from the stone, it was said she became something inhuman and stopped aging. As a result, one could argue that her ideals, like her physical development, stopped, and it wasn't until Stay/Night that she eventually began to mature.
Well-said. I also feel like Artoria did some maturing during the FSN route due to her daily interactions with Shirou, and to an extent, Rin. Well, that and she LOVES Shirou's homemade food.
THATS THE THING when she lost avalon in FGO she becomes a TRUE king you can say Lion King no remorse and only saves the kingdom there you go bitches that you ideal king
I never understood why she was stuck in physical form unlike the other servants but now it makes more sense if she is technically still alive and that is her actual body.
No, it's because Shirou didn't have any mana.
@@mongooseunleashedshe does not go in spirit form in fate zero, just something she cant do
I was helping my Aunt with sociology psych paper and one of the sections stuck in my head. It was about how leaders are defined by their circumstances. Pretty much everything Tsiah says in support of Arturia is quite literally, from a academic study perspective, is scientifically true.
Thanks man. This is the kind of character/lore analysis I live for!
Saber was the only one in the war who wanted a wish granted. Therefore she deserved the Grail more than anyone else. But you can't change the past. You can make better choices because of what happened back then, but life doesn't have a rewind button.
OH WOW WHY DID YOU BRING UP nero in this talk :/ stop calling her saber Everyone is saber
Artoria is a very special Servant.
I think a few things attributed to and exacerbated what went down with Camelot. She definitely isn't to blamed for all of it, nor should she be hung on a cross, but I think her personality made the prophecy a self-fulfilling one. Just like Shirou, being an easily used martyr meant that she easily fell into problems that could have been solved. And her legend does tell of a few things she could get heat for, like the May Day massacre, which was a plot to end the problem of the cursed child that would end the kingdom, but those details are vague on whether she sent the children borne in May to die or be sent away. The second was in Hollow, where she mentions knowing that Guinevere loved her and kinda keeping the farce of a marriage they had going, knowing she was kinda duping a friend. So when Lancelot and Guinevere have the tryst, she privately doesn't mind as she knows she cannot give Guinevere the love she wanted. So that one is shared fault, because she ends up going along with the execution of the Queen when their affair is found out, so that's on her, but Lancelot also butchering his fellow knights in retaliation was both sad but also dumb. Plus, the whole utopia of Camelot was kinda pursed on the members not acknowledging the ugliness that lied within and doing something about it. They go over that in FGO plenty of times as well. So no, she definitely shouldn't have become like Iskandar and Gil, as they have their own crosses to bear, but being a martyr wasn't the way to go either, no matter how much the people say they wished for one, a ruler should live as a person, not a machine.
To be honest this is one of my favorite vids. I'm glad we both share like mindedness on the subject of Artoria's situation. And I'm glad that you find a way to dumb it down for simpletons (for lack of a better way of saying that) to understand the character better. Loved the vid. I didn't think there was anyone else that would understand this POV of her. Thanks.
Glad this video exists.
Although, one thing, didn't Merlin tell her how things would end or, at least allude to it in Garden of Avalon?
That would mean she had an idea of what would happen but, still tried to fix things anyway. It's admirable that she seriously tried within her human limitations but, a dream is still a dream at the end of the day.
Yes, Merlin prophesied to her that whoever pulls the sword, will face a terrible death and Camelot will still fall regardless.
A serious warning as Merlin's prophecies are always right.
One thing, about that Merlin only said "She will face a terrible end" not the knight together with her. She basically ok with dying, if she was assassinated like Caesar and Iskandar or being blamed like EMIYA.
@@kyleroman2744 Ah yes, that makes sense. She didn't know it would extend to her people. Thanks.
@@ThermalVoid Thanks for the clarification
@@1999bazz an extra add, in the Merlin scene Artoria actually responds that she would be fine so long as people smiled (that is a constant in Nasu’s characterization of Artoria and is what creates the parallel with Shirou). So it is implied she did not think the destruction would be so terrible to extend to all her knights and citizens.
I like when she appears in Apocrypha because in one little scene you can understand that even if destiny is not gonna go easy on her, she still sees something meaningful in her path. In her Fate.
To take that path again even knowing what it holds... Is really something to respect.
No, I agree with you about the King's banquet. It's clear the writers for F/Z didn't understand Artoria all that well. And both Gilgamesh and Alexander conveniently forgot about their own myriad shortcomings of their own rule (Gilgamesh was hated by the gods and Alexander's empire dissolved the moment he died) while criticizing Artoria, and Artoria for whatever reason just sat there and took the abuse instead of arguing back. Definitely not in her character at all. Especially when her personal convictions are the strongest out of arguably any Servant.
The truth is, Artoria was greatly loved and respected by those that followed her, that much is obvious by ANY of the Knights of the Round Table's dialogue. But she held herself and others to an inhumanly perfect standard, and that's what eventually broke her followers that couldn't live up to such a lofty and unobtainable ideal. That's what makes the Camelot Singularity so tragic. She's finally achieved that ideal, but at the same time thrown away the last dregs of her humanity for the sake of an inhuman perfection that comes with far too great a cost.
I agree with you on the she should’ve been more combative when they got on her like they did but they never once forgot they’re shortcomings (at least Iskandar definitely didn’t) Iskandar mentions his failures n says he doesn’t regret them. That’s what it was about the fact that she regretted and tried to change the outcome that her leadership brought. The whole point was that she never showed them how to live or really led them in the first place. So the banquet makes complete sense to me
The Kings Banquet is probably my favourite episode in all of Fate Zero, but it really does feel like the episode goes out of its way to completely shit on her sacrifice. This is a perfect video to watch after listening to the Garden of Avalon CD Drama.
hmm to me it always felt like what the banquet was trying to do is make artoria face her flaws, some of which led to the downfall of her kingdom, and while yes gilgamesh's and iskandar's also had a tragic ending the point was that they accepted that while she didn't. So yes they made mistakes and apparently theyre just shitting on her but they at least accepted the end result and are simply pointing out some of her flaws as a king from their point of view and showing why her decision to try changing the past is not something a king should ever do
@@Storn_ if this is the part that they emphasized then the banquet would be a good scene, but Iskandar calling Saber's ideals childish and worthless, now that's another matter
@@kyleroman2744 well that’s just his opinion tbh, it isn’t necessarily the anime calling her out as much as it’s what he thinks of her, and to an extent he is right since she has an extremely idealized opinion of what is a king is and that had consequences on the outcome that Camelot ended up facing but even this is just my opinion, at no point do they really tell you who is right but the scene does make her face some of the flaws she has and that’s the point of it imo
@@Storn_ well for me, Iskandar has a point, really but after he declared Saber he does not recognized Saber as a King, my opinion of him definitely went down
@@kyleroman2744 sure but that isn’t a problem with the scene as much as it is a problem you have with iskandar’s opinion, the scene itself did a good job imo
I’m glad I stumbled upon your channel! I’ve been binging your videos, even at work. You’ve made the Fate series easier for me to understand.
The king's banquet is one of the most BS thing i have ever read.
They just gang up on her and talk like children about how their "awesome nations" but in fact , one is ruled later when reality slap his golden cheek and another collapsed right after he dies. Both didn't last, much like Saber's.
Saber did her best, but a bunch of personal frustrations lead to an outburst of consequences which cause her kingdom to fall.
Thank you for pointing this out, my man!
What i got from there conversation is that a king should never have regrets on there rule. That's how the whole conversation started with saber saying her wish to rider and gil and also her basically calling rider wish dumb. Imo on her rule even if I put myself in her situation there are situations she could had handled better. Not saying the knights of round carry no blame some of the knights of the round carry the same amount of blame as saber did. For example tristan can you actually blame him not accepting lancelot help because this the same lancelot who took the kings wife and who injured him and killed his two brothers and lancelot being a big reason for mordred to spread the news to Britain about what's happening and cause an outrage no i can't blame him. That was an completely human emotion that tristan had not trusting lancelot and not accepting his help now sure if lancelot was there king Arthur wouldn't had died thats the only regret tristan has. To saber there where situations was out her control but there where situations she could had handled lancelot situation alot better. The same as when mordred told her she/him was her/his child which she just walked away. The kings conversation was not about her being a bad king because being a good or bad king is personal opinion but it was about her having regrets about her past her history.
Switch tristan with gawain my bad
How do you think the Fifth Holy Grail War could have played out if it was delayed by another 10 years, taking place in the 2010s instead of the 2000s? How different would things be? Would like to hear your thoughts on that.
Imagine shirou coming home from his job, seeing servants fighting and joining the grail war meeting a probably married rin, and it'll probaby go like heaven feels
Shit would become main stream media in an instant and people would panic to hell and the US army would probably step in and the entire region would self destruct itself due to "gas leaks"
Emiya would probably be less stupid at the beginning stages of the war but it depends on how much further he got into his Magecraft skills and with Avalon still being inside him he'd probably have a easier time making something like a fake Caliburn
Rin would probably be at the clock tower at this point, Shinji being more of a prick, Sakura either dead or manifest the grail like in HF, Illya probably kills off Shirou wayy before the war or has the upper hand since Shirou has no one to team up with, Caster's master wouldn't be the teacher guy but still probably end up at the temple, don't know about Assassin, Gilgamesh would probably be still fucking around
Also without Rin, Shirou would most likely never have known about the church so he would never have the relationship with Kirei is my guess
and Angra Mainyu manifests and without Rin to summon Archer and give Shirou advice or sacrifice himself in dire situations, he wouldn't grow much as a character and the entire Earth would've probably end due to Kirei eventually and maybe then Shirou would probably meet him exchange names and have their fight or whatever but Gilgamesh would kill them all because no way in hell are they projecting Avalon in this timeline
I didn't take Shirou's goal to become a "Hero or justice" in account because if he did, he'd probably left Japan too and gone elsewhere
I mean we're talking about 10 years, these student's would be in their late 20's at that point, also Emiya would've probably marry Fujimura or his part time job partner but that's besides the point
@@nightshrine4257 US Military* USA USA USA 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸
@@A_itsar Wait, if it goes like HF shouldn't Shirou be with Sakura?
@@nightshrine4257 would be funny to see that people who actually witnessed it who didn't get their memories wiped would be dubbed as deranged conspiracy theorists
"I saw some supernatural ghosts thingies that fought with magic stuff at night and caused the damage to the city!!"
And they're just dismissed or told off for being delusional
The kings banquette is a wonderful piece of writing, the 3 kings all possess a fundamental quality of a king. The 3 each hold a quality the others miss and combine to be the ideal king
Terrible execution tho, just comes off as bastardizing Sabers character for the sake of hyping up the other two. Like many instances in Zero it could have been handled much better.
@@infinitezion2029 nah, they are fully right imo. For that matter saber and shiro are basically the same in the ways that they are wrong. That is not to say that iskandar and Gilgamesh (especially that version) are saints though XD
@@wouterlansdaal2337 the only reason they seem right for even a moment despite Iskandar literally being a hypocrite is because Zero saber is barely saber at all. The scene only works cuz she's written in a way that goes entirely against who Artoria is in every other piece of type moon media.
FZero saber is basically Artoria Lily but made insanely stupid so the other characters can constantly remind her of how dumb she is.
@@infinitezion2029 I literally called everyone wrong lol
That's intended, given that servants and masters are generally the same, I reckon. Just like Sakura and medusa
She didn't fail her people, Her people failed her.
Watching this just makes me want more Fate adaptations with Artoria.
My take is that she was so righteous and so perfect that it maked her not being able to understand their people like not punishing lancelot or not understanding modred feelings that is also recognized by herself personally i love the three kings talk also need to realize gil and iskandar have different ideologies and ways to rule that aren't necessarily right.
Need to clarify i played fgo and watched all of the fate anime and watched a ton of lore but didn't play the vn
@@fabriziolopez8217 then you should've realized that not recognizing Mordred's feeling is the most humane expression
@@kyleroman2744 why
@@Emorg3212 would you immediately accept a grown up child you didn't even remember concieving and when he said he was your son?
@@kyleroman2744 The problem with Mordred wasn't that she was an illegitimate child Artoria didn't remember having, but that she didn't possess the qualities of a successor in Artoria's eyes. Honestly Camelot would've burned to the ground the same way under Mordred's rule as it did as a result of her rebellion.
I wonder what would happen if Nero finds out EMIYA burnt down Rome
Ah, yes, the banquet. The most stupidly wanked scene in all the franchise, leading to misinterpretation of Saber's whole character... Good job, Urobuchi.
Nah it said exactly what many of us were thinking
@@jonnymarcia4403 The problem is Urobuchi completely rewrote her character to fit that idea, she's totally different in the original. Plus Iskandar's point and braggadocious attitude are plain bullshit, as he himself lead to the downfall of his kingdom in order to pursue a stupid dream.
True
@@Luca-yb4sh true
@@Luca-yb4sh True, and if we're talking about the greediest wish, then it would be Saber
The Saber and Archer section is honestly one of the big reasons why I personally prefer them as a couple (years later in FGO) over Fate Shirou and Saber bc Archer can relate and understand all of what Saber has gone through on a level Fate Shirou simply cannot. There’s also the fact that Saber was the only person Archer still remembered after initially being summoned to Fuyuki, thinking fondly of her
WHICH ARCHER fucker please say people's names we aren't fighting in a war we don't need to have goofy class names
"Not only did they not fix them but they were punished for even giving the attempt".
Sounds like today's society in a nutshell
Damn, that's a freaking a great showcase of the character's virtue in 8 mins. As a loyal Saber stan, I'm happy hearing you setting the record straight. I feel similar to you to the banquet, though I do feel there's some truth to Saber being detached from her people as it's pointed out in VN that she had to somewhat become inhuman to be able do the right things leading to her not being able to relate completely to common folks. Though, the banquet does paint a far too weak image of Saber with all she had to live through. I feel at minimum she should be able to respond to Gil and Iskandar something interesting instead of simply experiencing despair.
Arturia have of the best backstories in fate.. hands down.. Shirou you damn lucky bastard..
No no, I absolutely agree with you on the king's speech. Gil and Iskandar have no idea what they are talking about, they are just pulling stuff out their rear and then all the morons hear it and get wet. Its annoying and listening to it or someone praising it gives me a goddamn conniption
Gil and Iskandar are completely ignorant to Artoria's situation and are just trying to force their ideals on her because they are narcissists, simple as that. People just simp for them and try to make it look like they have a poing
Yo this is incredible and honestly I thonk the reason why the grail came to her was because of her pure heart. Like you said she's sacred and has genuine good intentions and wanted to right her wrongs and each time she tries she only is s hairs breath away feom accomplishing it .
Oh my god bro not that this video isn't very well-done analysis i just feel like rewatching fate zero because of that finale command Kiritsugu gave remembering it gives chills. Also thinking about the idea that Saber remembers being a servant because she was alive the whole time makes sense.
Bro this channel has become my new obsession and always using it for background noise when I'm doing dad stuff for my 5 yr old.
Don't sweat LB6 too much, that Morgan is almost entirely unrelated to main Morgan, even having different origins/back stories.
Not to mention there is a certain retcon introduced that really messes with Camelot's timeline.
Yeah Morgan isn't really much of a good example here as they're such a long comparison from each other
it's not the same
LB6 Morgan is basically another version of Artoria Alter, while PHH Morgan is another matter of being
No main morgan rayshifts her memory to LB morgan, they are similar
@@zen1210 their literally different, unlike Isekai series, PHH Morgan's memories didn't takeover LB Morgan
@@kyleroman2744 They are similar only when Arturia is present wher PHH Morgan personality is shown
I TOTALLY agree about the banquet of kings!
What i got from is not calling saber a bad king because calling someone a bad or good king is a personal opinion but the kings banquet was about no king should have regrets about the decision they made or how the rule ended. Literally the whole conversation about saber rule was when Iskandar talked about his wish and saber called his wish foolish than they talk down to her because her wish was to change her history her rule.
As an Artoria simp, I approve.
Iirc, FSN and FZ Saber is kind of inconsistent like, FSN Saber is so resolved in her beliefs and never swayed unlike her FZ version where she got easily shaken when Iskandar criticized her. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not really that knowledgeable about Fate lore.
No that’s right one of the biggest flaws of zero is how contradictory artoria character is between the 2 series but when you talk to some zero wankers they will literally act like gen developed her character more and ignore the inconsistencies
So is the happy artoria after stay night happy ending real the one waiting for Shirou in Avalon and also where exactly is Avalon and also how many years after were the reunited because I have feelings it's after the world has been destroyed or something otherwise how the heck does Emiya break his contract of being a servant
The one that's in Avalon is the Fate Artoria as Last Episode says she's been waiting for Shirou.
Avalon is in the Reverse Side of the World. It's basically a pocket dimension within the Reverse Side which is another plane of existence itself apart from the normal physical world.
Shirou meets her after a decade or two at most since the life as a hero of justice is a relatively short one. He dies and Merlin helps him enter Avalon. Meanwhile Artoria is sent back to her time and has to wait in Avalon for around 1500 years.
Counter Guardian/ Heroic Spirit EMIYA isn't the same person as Fate route Shirou. EMIYA is essentially a failed Fate Shirou who never got Artoria to accept herself and allow herself to feel (or confess to him), so he never had any other motivation in his life besides his ideal. Fate Shirou did save Saber and he kept pursuing her alongside being a hero of justice so he never accepted a deal with the counter force.
TL;DR: Archer is forever stuck as a counter guardian while Fate Shirou is happily spending his afterlife with Saber in Avalon.
@@psychophate Got it, never knew Avalon was located in the reverse side of the world that one was some new info, so basically after Fate stay night ends Artoria is sent back to her time but this time she properly passes on and dies and moves on inside Avalon waiting for Shirou basically right?
@@Aman_Mondal Yup. She properly dies and waits for Shirou in Avalon after Fate route.
@@psychophate Man truly the most genuine of waifus 😭 Saber is the truly the best 😭 and the more you think about how her kingdom got destroyed the more you realise both Gilgamesh and Iskandar didn't even have to go through half of that shit in their lives, Iskandar really had a good life as a king which is why his attitude at his life and the attitude of his soldiers are like that as for Gilgamesh well the guy literally divided the world of gods and humans into two which caused the fall of his kingdom but he truly didn't give a fuck because the fact that a story ends is better than a everlasting story to him
@@Aman_Mondal Archer is an asshole but Casgil is a bro
The only thing she did wrong was not explaining anything to Mordred... Which is acceptable when you learn that your sister used your whatever to make a child and that child was under your nose and one of your trusted knights. I'd be baffled and be mad too. Still she shouldn't have cut the past connection she had with Mordred in a fit of rage
This was a banger videos my man thanks for this
Is it possible that " The World" created the circumstances that would eventually push Artoria into accepting the Contract for the purpose of recalling her in the future for a specific purpose?
Kinda like a Behelit from Berserk but neutral.
Quantum Time Locks are thing in which certain events are set in stone and can't be messed with. Camelot's fall happens to be one as it's essentially the last dying breath of the era of mystery that was holding on by a thread after the gods were gone.
The counterforce probably decided to benefit from it by nabbing another useful person. But Camelot was gonna fall regardless.
I just realize that Saber seeking the Holy Grail is similar to Gilgamesh's seeking the immortal herb and both didn't achieve the things that they seek but found a better reward for themselves at the end
I just think it's suspicious that Artoria even had such a weapon in the first place. I mean think about Excalibur and Rhongomyniad, and exactly how powerful these weapons were, and the seals on them. Artoria in her Lifetime with the exception of the Camelot Lostbelt, never had any reason to use even a fraction of their true power of Excalibur, and never needed to interfere with the " World pillars".
It could've been any powerful sword but she was chosen as wielder for Divine Constructs that would never see their true use in Camelot.
It makes Artoria's whole story and the fall of Camelot seem like a tragic sacrifice to get Artoria become a Counter guardian showing up in the 4th and 5th Fuyuki Grail war with the Exact weapon needed to destroy the Corrupted Grail, as well as Avalon ending up with Shirou that eventually form the foundation for his magecraft and he too Also would get contracted by the Planet after having possession of a Divine Construct and and having regrets upon his death.
@@markwalker091 Reminds me of Solomon, "God" literally planned all of it and Alaya was the one contracted both Shirou and Artoria, I think, especially Shirou
@@kristenhall3327 No matter whose king of Camelot, Quantum Time-lock ensures Camelot will fall sooner or later, unless outside intervention
Let’s get it!
Nice way to start the morning. Interesting stuff as always
5:05
that proves it
jesus is a saber fan
Tristram was flat out drunk when he said those words to artoria in the legends. That is something I find pretty funny.
Merlin did mention Artoria in avalon in camalot singularity, if i remember. I still get emotional about the avalon ending
What’s that? Seems like novels stuff
Dude hell no. Saber is bloody awesome, she's the type of character that succeeds and then life flips the table and say lol nope. It's like winning against a rigged game, you won but the other person declares himself as the winner anyway.
The fate route should get a remake
I honestly think this is the real crime of the 2006 F/SN anime adaptation being so bad. This anime spent so much time trying to “square peg-round hole” key content from UBW and HF into the Fate route that it completely missed the boat on what the Fate route was really about - namely, the things that were mentioned about Artoria in this video. And because people don’t have the context of Artoria’s motivations from a properly adapted Fate route, it leads people into thinking she’s an “unlikeable” character. Because I do have context of the Fate route (I watched someone “let’s play” the VN), I have a lot more respect for her thought processes, even if I still think she’s wrong, and watching her slowly change her mindset through the route, to the point when Kotomine offers her the Grail and all she has to do is betray Shiro, she outright rejects Kotomine because everything has finally clicked into place in her mind.
Really one of the biggest reasons why ufotable readapting the Fate route is one of the highest spots on my anime wish list.
first time seeing your video you earned sub and my like
🎵 running up that road, running up that hill 🎵
This living servant concept never came back wich is weird since you could use it to evade the counter force I just want expansions.
Like is there a timeline where Emiya himself has a living servant counterpart
Or Angra Mainyu since his spirit form could theoretically exist making him still alive.
The closest we got are cases like erice who’s a human with a servant mother which makes her a servant/human/Demi god
@@amari7782 a Demi servant to be precise another special case since Servants can't breed unless her parent is a living servant 🧐
@@tonyinfinite5174 yea but tell that to erice dad who fucked izanami
@@amari7782 Isnt her Mom japan's Death Goddess Izanami?
We have the concept of living servants but just altered, like Bedivere being nothing but a husk after hundreds of years, Mash being a Demi servant who uses the power of a servant but is NOT said servant, or Erice who was born from a Servant (somehow).
Does that mean she could technically get pregnant since she is alive and not just a spirit?
Probably
When Shirou arrive in Avalon, he has already children in waiting, with their neighbor Seig
@@kyleroman2744 sieg is in avalon???
@@stisselux9371 yeah watch Apocrypha
@@stisselux9371 Seig and Jeanne will reunite in the reverse side of the world but not really Avalon, that's why I said neighbors, while Merlin is the neet uncle that barely exits his room
Alot of people say the WORLD did 'this' and 'That' and for whatever reasons, and I immediately hear NASU did 'this' and 'that' for plot reasons. Great vid 👍
She was given the most bad set of cards in a poker game and she tried to win using it.
My man sounds like a judge not even mad tho
Watching through this i keep reminding myself "these are fgo players, these are fgo players, these are fgo players"
But if the Grail is destroyed, like it was in HF, wouldn’t that effectively mean her contract is terminated and she would finally die permanently?
Yep, and thats how she managed to reunite with shirou in avalon
Atleast to my understanding
10/10 video due to how we somewhat know how the world chooses heroes for a second chance
Also this might be far fetched but I would like to see Weakest to strongest Greek heroes/ servants in fate
Don't sleep on angra mainyu video
That would make saber similar to sailor moon. If she died she would be incarnated again at a future time for another holy grail war.
I gotta watch this later she’s like my favorite character ever 😆
i've seen people also talk about the scene in f/zero as well
Wait so does this mean Saber is a counter guardian like Emiya?
Nice thumbnail!
So It Means That She's Stocked up In a loophole Of Contract because Of Her PRIDE
so even after all that
she still destroyed the grail two times in a raw
I'm not really in Fate storyline, even playing FGO, I like to see the fights but I never go in depth of anything that's happening n I think it's fine, I just like to collect waifus n spread the Arturia supremacy
I came because I was intrigued by this
Woowowo that's is wild I didn't know that
Maybe Artoriagot a contract with the grail because the knight of the grail died? Like the grail that made the contract is the one from her legend
Tsiah can you discuss and analyze the kings banquet?
What are all the mediums that fate has like games, novels, manga, anime and more?
Like what types like redline. Bc I’ve been wanting to find more fate stories and that. Even if there’s a site that has them to would be great.
Does the bedivier a living servant too?
Finally someone said it~!
2:16 anyone know where this clip is from? I do not remember it in the Heaven's Feel movies
If its her being sad in the rain then its a clip from ep 12 of unlimited blade works
Hold up. If Solomon won the Fuyuki war, doesnt it mean that in FGO Saber is still bound to whatever condition she is in FSN? She did not get the grail
Look towards the future.
The Banquet scene serves one purpose: To filter those understand Saber and those who don't. Those who understand her, just hate that scene me included, I know the scene wanted to convey, "You should accept the past" but it went ina comical fanfiction character bashing mode, that I hate it. Those who think that scene is "Genius" or "Good" is the reason I can't take F/Z seriously.
I always interpreted Tristan infamous speech "The king does not understand the hearts of men" as someone who can't see how much Artoria hides her emotions, her sorrow to them. Her hurt. The whole Irony of "inhuman" is that Artoria never could give away her humanity, internally she cared too much.
I like Mordred, but she so f*cked with the "I'm your son, can I have the throne?" What did she expect? Sure Artoria could have explained it better, but she did not shun her.
Do a video about spiritual Evocation mage craft and what the different between evocation and invocation
isnt merlin that is a servant and alive or am i missing smth
No, Merlin can self-summon himself through his dreams and using a few tricks while his true body remains in Avalon.
@@lenleon3699 which makes him a living servant lol.
Still hoping of a summer servants ranked. Just because the scaling goes out the window
Why wasn't Arturia turnt into a Counter Guardian like Emiya?
Can a magus summon an Archangel or Lucifer?
So my question is what about Proto Arthur. Is he also like Artoria?
I never put it together the way did. Excellent video sir!
can u plz make a video explaining bediveres situation on FGO. Im still unsure as to how he was still alive after all those years. and if its something miniscule anybody can just reply to this comment. thanks
That Bedivere especifically was an alternative timeline version where Bedivere never throws Excalibur to the lake. When he returns he can not find King Arthur any more and proceeds to expend centuries trying to find her soul. Excalibur itself kept Bedivere alive but it’s holy power eventually eroded his soul and by the time of the Camelot Singularity he was about to vanish from it’s influence.
didn't kitsurugi made her destroy the grail?
Since saber is a living servant does that mean hypothetically speaking she could be injured by physical Force?
Can u do do not sleep on ryougi shiki
oh
type moon fans unite
not accepting modred as her child and as one of her people. is what makes her a bad king. she failed mordred dont even pretend Alexander life was flawless and had no pain. most of all the servants are there because they have regrets and want to wish them away. like nero, like mordred, like atoria she wishes she did better.
I’m done with the saber hate man. I swear it all started in fate zero during the banquet scene.
Why did World choose Arturia, Its simple, world want to earn Emiya and is only possible if Saber meets shirou who will then go onto form contract with the world
first? Merlin came afterwards and but how about scathach?
I know its fanfiction but in Fate/Empire of dirt is that scathach is that in the celti history never died what is with Heroes that never died in ther legends
I knew it
The events weren't out of her control, with authority she had she could've stopped it from happening. Like actually planning on getting a proper heir even if it was mordred, she could've trained her to become one. Example, Sulaiman of the ottoman empire literally killed his own son to stop any future usurpation for his heir. And another example for the byzantines, they literally faced revolt after revolt while holding out against the Bulgars and the Muslim. More specifically when Leo III became the emperor, the Muslims were literally besieging the capital with their biggest army ever seen since then, while the armies of Anatolia couldn't do much.
Did you just want her to become edgy, isn't. And really dude, who would accept when a child suddenly appeared in your doorstep calling herself your son and heir?
Garden of avalon says Britain had to fall for the age of gods to end and the age of man to begin
@@thirdplanet4471 so it was just fated?
@@kyleroman2744 also she could've adopted to that was an option, most of the 5 good emperors of rome were adopted too by the respective previous emperors
@@danielhong6908 I think so
Nah that Mordred one is unforgivable. Had she simply acknowledged Mordred and groomed her for the role of king, alot of shit could have been avoided
Except I don’t know bout you but she never saw mordred as her kid nor did she have any reason to.
Morgan was her mother and no matter wat Morgan would find a way to fuck everything up.
Also I don’t know why people expect her to basically accept someone who she’s only saw as nothing more as a good knight and flip the script and act like a full blown parent when artoria doesn’t really know what that means.
Her not accepting mordred makes way more sense and regardless of wat would’ve happened things would’ve still flopped
@@amari7782 the biggest flaw in your argument is that Mordred didn't want her as a parent. She just wanted her to acknowledge her as kid and as a result the next Ruler. Artoria basically told her to fuck off, mordred was happy to continue as a knight. No matter what Morgan did if Artoria had simply handled the situation better Mordred would have stood by her, she literally refused to follow Morgan's plan for most her life.
@@kinglace3782 except like I said that wouldn’t have mattered because Morgan has shown that she can take over mordred anyway
@@kinglace3782 Who in the right mind would suddenly gave all his/her hardwork to his/her self-proclaimed child? Theirs no DNA test at those times, bro.
@@kyleroman2744 bruh. Look at Mordred, it took one look for Artoria to know she isn't lying. She never denies that Mordred is her child.