These videos are INCREDIBLE. Absolutely packed with SO many examples. I can't believe how many games you're able to physically showcase specific mechanics for. Incredibly well done! I hope this gets more views.
One more thing many new designers don't know: One of the reason there aren't many dice pool games compared deck building is because dice ultimately cost more, so the game design will have to be worth the extra cost.
i thought it was because card are just superior to dice, still a lot of randomness, but at some point you're doom to get the other option as well, while with dice you could just indefinitly roll the bad dice without ever rolling the good one and it feel awful and when the opposite happen, the win feels undeserved
great vid, thanks for not just the references to other games, but also showing the relevant information on the card/with gamplay! that was EXTREMELY helpful more than just showing the box cover as other videos do.
A brilliant, informative video! The Star Wars Deckbuilding Game has really stood out this year for us with the ability to attack enemy cards in the market (Galaxy Row), and with Capital Ships protecting a series of “final boss” bases. It’s been hitting our table a LOT. I hope it gets the support needed for future expansions! Have you made a video on your personal deckbuilding favorites? I’ll look to see…thank you!
No, I haven’t made a video on my favourite deckbuilders - I don’t tend to do those sort of videos. So many channels do “Top 10 XYZ games” videos, so I try to use a different slant and do “Top 10 mechanisms” videos instead. But this video pretty much covers my favourite deckbuilders anyway!
Amazing in-depth video! I entered the hobby through Dominion around 2013 and was enraptured ever since by the deck-building mechanism, as it reminded me of my teenage years of playing and collecting MtG. 4 years later I designed Tournament Fishing, which I was surprised to see in your video. Great work!
So just to clarify, the difference between bag builders and deck builders aside from material is how the probabilities and reuse of the pieces plays out. If you are Bag/Pool Building you don't typically go through the entire bag before resetting it(if, in fact, you ever do); this is fundamentally different than deckbuilders where the point of reset is simply the deck running out. So redundancy of the same pieces has a higher ceiling in bag builders compared to deck building where you draw through every prior piece before accessing your newly acquired ones. Bag builders therefore provide faster positive feedback but higher variance; the potential to see some things more often and completely miss others. Deck builders may feel less dynamic but they more strongly capture the growing sense of accomplishment of building a synergistic engine with your cards; the variance of drawing cards in a particular order but knowing they will show up at some point. Which gets to the major distinction being that deckbuilders offer the additional interaction in drawing hands of cards. There's an extra layer of control and strategy in how you play your hand out which make deckbuilders more complex and thougthful, especially when the cards themselves are modal in nature. Bag builders may be snappy and thrilling in comparison but I don't think they lend the same depth without accessing other mechanisms. There's also the fact that chips or the like don't offer the same opportunity for detailed information and specific mechanisms. In bag builders the pieces tend to have simple, predefined functions, or correspond to some external resource. They offer far less functional variety as a result.
This has given me a nice list of games to look up for inspiration! I've created a deckbuilding game where I think my twist has reduced the player interaction too much. As such I'm looking at ways other games increase interaction and other systems that can prevent games from devolving into solitaire. But now I find myself intrigued by card-crafting games. I already have too many ideas on the backburner, but the amount of innovation in board games never ceases to amaze me.
I’m glad the video was helpful. Good luck with your deckbuilder! Lack of interaction isn’t the end of the world - plenty of Euro games are less interactive. As long as the game itself provides loads of feedback to the players (rewards, punishments, impactful decisions) that’s often enough. After Us is a deckbuilder with practically zero interaction. Or the game could be solitaire like Friday.
Thanks for the informative video! to me the unfortunate folly of deck builders is how solitaire they can feel, but I’ve got a design coming soon which I hope will subvert that deck builder stereotype.
Fort is an interesting deck builder I'd like to add to your list. All of your unused cards in a round return to the market for other players. If they don't take them, you get them back, but it really changes up how you decide which cards to purchase since you only get one action each turn. If you only buy the best cards, someone will likely steal the one you didn’t use this round. If you only have one good card in your deck, you're sacrificing a turn and your other cards to say you'll play that once each deck cycle. Makes you think about how to purchase some cards and get more cards to be used each round, and that’s not even talking about the public/private action system.
My favorite X-builder has to be Cubitos, which probably wins best tactile experience within the genre. Instead of cards, your hand consists of tiny dice you get to throw again and again. The game is also unique in that each player can freely decide which unused dice to pick for each round, shifting the randomness from the cards you draw to the effect they provide instead. Not only do you replace your gray cubes with more and more colorful ones, you also get to use more per round, so by the end of the game, you'll be throwing 14 tinybdice at once.
Nürnberg Spielwarenmesse started today.... So I guess I am a little late in watching this video! Thanks for the tips! Hopefully my preparation was enough anyway. Otherwise, Ill have to start right away preparing for Spiel Essen 2024! 😂
My two favourite deck/bag building games you didn’t mention are A Study in Emerald, which is a unique multiplayer deck builder where you have a sort of area control/worker placement element to the market place and a secret team allegiance mechanic. The other is the fantastic Hyberborea, a streamlined 4x game where you have a bag building civilisation to manage.
One "kind of" variant that is interesting to explore is found in "Flamme Rouge", where you start with a fixed complete deck, draw a set of cards of which you choose one to play and remove that card entirely from the game, while the not chosen cards go back in the deck pile to be used in further rounds. More of a desk-destructing mechanism so to say. It sets up a challenging choice of taking a quick benefit this turn but losing a good card versus holding on to a good card and sticking to a slow progress.
Top notch analysis, deck building is a great feature overall to implement, even if its just a side feature of the boardgame. It helps to reduce "downtime", at least artificial, players have always something to look at and think about in their hands.
Great video! I've been brainstorming a deck building game that I hope I can make a reality someday, and this video was really thought provoking and provided a lot of inspiration.
Another place you can look for inspiration is digital deck builders, like Slay the Spire, Monster Train, and more varied options like Dicey Dungeons. Slay the Spire just got a physical version but there are lots of neat mechanics in each to look at, such as removal of the "market" instead tying deckbuilding to advancement through the game.
New to the channel - great video! As someone who is making a deck builder pirate video game, this is a great summary of the innovations over the years.
Deckbuilding is easily my favorite mechanic in a game. There are just so many things it can simulate. Definitely still working on my own game though. Been at it for about ten uears and have had so many mental prototypes but, I feel that I am close to being able to make something interesting.
35:02 Dragon Ball Z or GT had something similar. I'm sure it was one of those. You overlay cards that changed aspects of a previous card. I love that idea, but ultimately faces a few problems. These cards are going to wear pretty quickly given sleeving isn't really an option. With Gloom the cards seen underneath becoming less visible as you stack cards. Mystic Vale has you constantly sliding cards among each other. Replacing any of the transparent elements is incredibley more difficult than just printing out a general card. Neat idea, but prone to being throw away after enough plays. What I love is that Mystic Vale was brought to PC which makes it infinitely less fragile, and infinitely much faster. Very little setup, and no packup required. You can also play solo against computer opponents.
There is a deckbuilding game called Warmachine and its sister set Hordes High Command. The difference is, each player has their own market and has combat. Another is Apex Therapod were each player is one of the carnivore dinosaurs which each has their own market but for resources, you hunt the prey to evolve or adapt.
Great video, you did miss a great card acquisition mechanic for deck builders. Eminent domain. You choose an action and gain a card of that action. You can spend multiple cards of the same action, so the more you do an action, the better you get at it .
You should do a video on deduction games, like Clue, Suspicion, Mystery of the Abbey, and Deception, murder in hong Kong. I feel like it’s a genre that has a lot of inherent issues, but can be fun if executed correctly
Kinda surprised that Mage Knight didn't get mentioned at all. Its not particularly unique, but it's one of the largest deck builder games currently avalible and it embodies many of the common systems. Also somewhat surprised that factional cards weren't mentioned. They show up in quite a few deck builders and provide some intresting meta strategies for building a cohesive deck from random cards.
Saddened that you didn't mention Resident Evil DBG! It was one of the earliest DBG games with so many mechanics that are shared amongst all these styles, one of the rare dominion based games designed in 2010 with several expansions it was a push your luck styled variable player power psudo-co-op game.
Super video - thanks. It's great that you take the trouble to credit the designers of the lesser known earlier games (e.g. the one before Dominion). My most played games are probably Star Realms and Friday (both have excellent addictive phone apps). I also really like El Dorado. I can't get past the ugly art and graphics on Clank so sadly it leaves me cold. Among us looks beautiful. Where does it sit on your engagement ladder? Top rung? BTW, did you know that one of your faves Hab un gut is back in print. I bought it and played with my group a few times. We've all really enjoyed it.
Glad you’ve enjoyed Hab & Gut - I was aware that it’s back. I wish it had a graphic overhaul - I can’t really justify buying it again just to get an English cover and rulebook! 😂 (As much as I like the original look). My wife and I just finished Clank Legacy, and it’s been really fun. But I think I’m probably done with Clank after 11 games or so. Among Us probably wouldn’t reach the top rung just because it has zero thematic integration (the theme is irrelevant) and almost zero interaction. I do like it though - and the beautiful art lifts it a lot. Planet of the Apes is my favourite film franchise (especially the Heston original, but I like the new trilogy). So I was always going to get drawn into this one.
Thank you for the explanation! All of your videos have really done a lot to help me work on my games. Could you do a video on how you design the cards for your games? I watched your videos about Launch Tabletop and I was hoping for some clarity on how you used AI art for those prototypes?
Static market place is a great example of fair design. Less luck involved getting the cards you are after, and little to no stealing of cards from another player. It also means you wont have cards that don't work in the deck you are building, or can't be purchased clogging the market space, wasting turns/action to clear them out. I'll point to Shadowrun: Crossfire as a fine example of our experience with a randomized market space. 7:47 Not true. I've mentioned Aeon's End which doesn't involve shuffling your deck. It's brilliant and cuts down on time. You can set yourself up in future turns to have the cards in hand you want in future turns. Can, but not always as the game will have mechniasms to try and foil that, some Adversaries more than others. As for being dynamic, the game is very dynamic. You don't play with the same market each session, you don't have to use the same characters, and you don't even have to fight the same adversaries. You can randomize those elements. Not even playing the same Nemesis will result in the same game played as their deck is randomize during setup from an impressive pool of options. This is why it is hands down one of my fave deck builders out there. They've even made it possible to play as a series of games sturng together with the players getting progressively stronger.
Deckbuilding not only incorporated deck construction into gameplay, it also fixed the pay to win aspects collectable card games suffer from. They also tend to be more balanced and fair in my experience.
Shame not to mention of Xenon profiteer, one of the most inovative early deckbuilders that is frequently overlooked because of (I suspect) it's horrible theme-- Persistent money, tableau building, and a heavy focus on deck deconstruction. Tyrants of the Underdark is another one that deserved mention-- great area control game, plus introduced culling for points.
I don't mind the theme for the game, but there seems to be more value in building out your tableau than doing anything other than filter elements from your deck. It's a good discussion about how card shedding is good, though.
i think making the character creation more interesting than the game in ttrpg was a phenomenon that only came around with the overcomplication of said character creation in the latter editions. i definitely prefer games with simpler character creation, and if character creation is the most fun part of a ttrpg, then you might want to consider playing a game that puts more focus on the actual game. to use D&D as the example: Original D&D and the so called basic/Expert version
I think that is probably the way to go. It’s hard to quantify the power (cost) of an action so frequently it will come down to playtesting and seeing how it feels.
A most excellent video thank you for this! An honorable mention to MTG draft (especially Cube draft) format could have made sense as it is probably an inspiration for the deck-building genre.
Love Ascension. It has three static cards though, which is exactly the number of static cards that Mystic Vale has. You can always purchase more money, more attack, or kill a cultist. It helps balance out needs for what's in the river. Obviously that also means Ascension has two currencies: Money and Blood. It also has Constructs. They provide a constant affect once you draw them from your deck. In the original edition, the more victory points a Construct is worth, the less it does for you. It was an interesting balance they abandoned in later editions. I'm honestly a little disappointed that you go so much into other deck builders but ignore the number of ways Ascension added to the deck building genre. You even mentioned the changing river but claim there are no static cards >.
Engine building is largely covered in the Tableau Building video. They’re very similar concepts. So I don’t want to make another video which will be largely repeating the same stuff. I’m sure I’ll get to it eventually though!
There are not many print on demand services worldwide (for small production runs). But there are certainly a small number of competitors, which are largely based in the US. I haven’t used them so can’t specifically recommend.
I like deck builders. Crafting a deck as you play the game, as a core game mechanic. My faves are Aeon's End, and Apex Theropod Deck Building Game. I actually don't own Dominian as I find it far more hilarious -buying- I mean hiring maids with love in Tanto Cuore. The one downside I find with many deckbuilders is the ability to just swipe cards from a market space away from another player, and how much luck comes into the equation. Some don't provide enough options to ganrer wins like Legendary Encounters: A Firefly Deck Building Game, and some don't let you really build much of a deck, like in Keep The Heroes Out, although still entertaining. I don't consider Millenium Blades a deck builder. It is very much a anime TCG/CCG simulation. Deck building is building is building a deck by play cards. This has you buying cards with wads of cash (so true to life haha) making collections and building your deck for a match, not playing the game to build your deck loop. Because if Millenium Blades is a deck building game, then every TCG, and CCG out there is too. I have a card game concept that features many mechanics taken from elsewhere. Sadly it's a solo player game, and this isn't what I typically want. There's ways to make it multiplayer, but ultimately it works better as a pure solo game. I don't play solo games unless they are on a computer/console, or I am serisouly unable to make use of these in which case the games I do play are very portable. Why am I coming up with solo games is beyond me....
I didn’t use Millennium Blades as an example of a deck-building game (it isn’t one). I used it as an example of taking an activity which exists ‘around’ gaming and making it the entire game. Like Roll Player which takes generating a D&D character and makes that into a game. Dominion took pre-game deck construction (as in TCGs) and made it the whole game. I wonder if there are other examples of this? What else do we do ‘around’ a game which isn’t actually the game itself? Off the top of my head: how about a game where you paint miniatures in-game? Or a game where you pack the components away as you play? That reminds me of Friedemann Friese’s Fast Forward games where you learn the rules as you play.
@@AdaminWales I definitely missed that point. Sorry. Well deck building is pretty significant aspect to all CCGs, and TCGs and while it isn't the main event, this itself is factor for the enjoyment of the products. Some round about game mechanics that aren't a focus. Hm. It's not something that is generally focused on. Well as above, anything that would fall into setup would be. Since setup isn't part of the game, but the preparation of the game to be played. Dragon Dice has you make armies from dice, so consideration of dice is important. Dice size represeent health which is used to downgrade and upgrade throughout the game but only if they are available in your pool during play. Choosing, or even randomizing the 'market' for Qwarriors or even Dominon sets the rules that will be used within any given session. You are creating the games rules, and direction. Similar to picking characters for Mythwind, Pathfinder tACG, Keep the Heros Out, and even Vast.. To me, everything within playing games is an intended mechanic to consider while playing. Like Millenium Blades has many aspects to it all that tie into simulating playing as a CCG/TCG player. I consider the buying/selling/trading as an integral part of a core mechanic of the game, much like building your deck for the matches, and set collection. I think that the choosing of what card 'packs' to use for the game to be more of the 'around' element since it doesn't actually happen during play. It shapes the game, but isn't the game itself. Perhaps I am overthinking this too literal. Maybe? It is wonderful to see all the different mechanics intertwine into something more complex. You've actually had me look up some of the games I didn't know about. If I had more people to game with I'd certainly want to grab myself Starcraft tbg and Thunderstone, not sure which since there's 3 different versions, two which can be intergrated into one another.
There are a lot of various ways for deck building that you truly didn't talk about... Check after the virus for deck building with hand management Check superhot the card game for unique shifting market/hand/pool affected by your own actions Even check Shake up, chiseled and other games that are deck deconstruction game which means instead of deck building you ruin/thin your deck as the entire mechanism of the game
How about a literal "deck building" game where you're a D.I.Y. Dad trying to complete an outdoor living space before a planned gathering. You need to acquire lumber, upgrade tools, get a helper of various skill, fight weather, deal with building codes...
I'm creating a TCG around Toastmasters. Fulfilling roles and participating in meetings gives points, but using filler words like 'um' and going overtime reduces points. Members who are players can buy Consumable items, usually one-time use, to counter fillers and overtime, but to do so, they must pay from the points they earned during meetings. Or they can buy Avatars that can use similar effects as long as they have enough Energy. And at the end of the year, those who want to can face off against an opponent in a _DnD_ style encounter, using the decks built over the year. Currently I'm using photos I took of plastic models, mostly gundam plamo, for the Avatars, especially since they're so easy to customize. I'm trying to get an Educational, Non-Commercial Use License from Bandai to be able to use my photos, but so far I haven't found the right department. Any advice on this would be appreciated.
Slay the Spire killed the genre for me. It just has never gotten any better than it. It's the best most refined and replayable deck building game out there
Would MTG work as a deck builder? Like, you start with only basic lands and maybe some very cheap or free spells. And you may opt to buy cards for their mana cost, but they go into your graveyard (which is periodically recycled) instead of into play.
And you could also allow attacking cards in the market or targrt them difficult card effects. Though you'd have to make it explicit that their effect only applies in response to your actions. So having cards in the marketplace that have protection would protect them from your attack, but having cards in the market that automatically attack or are attacked if able does not make that happen. Their effect isn't constantly active.
Player elimination? HUGE issue. Not the minor one claimed. Credibility issue: the claim that monopoly is lengthy . IF PLAYED BY THE RULES, monopoly is pretty quick to every property being owned, as any ownable space is owned upon first time landed upon - as it goes to auction IMMEDIATELY after rejecting the list price. Also, there's no money from free parking; all fines/fees go to the bank, the bank is limited to the money mix, and the game overall runs a mere 1-2 hours. Tables: tables aren't a problem, if they're on the board or the player shields. Hidden Info: If the info was public, having a shield makes it into a memory function, and memory games are a pain in the arse. (Also, having elementary for years, kids do NOT do better; they just tolerate it better.) The best roll and move agency is control over direction: Kids of Catan turns cut-throat when you choose which direction to move. Makes the playable age range go from 3-7 to 3-90...
Wait Starcraft has a board game? I have to look into this possible wreck. I might actually enjoy it. I have World of Warcraft the board game. I can tell you this game is a space consumer, and time consumer. It's not a deckbuilder in any sense, and I would love to play this game, sadly wouldn't have the players for that.
The critical thing about in-game deck building is that it is not Pay To Win. MTG, Pokemon and all those other “TCG” games are essentially Pay To Win by creating a marketplace for overpowered cards.
Yep, I love decking building games, but I got tired of MTG and Yugioh. The ban list in Yugioh is stupid. I am sticking with star realms, ascension, clank. I enjoy other games too, but I usually go back to play these games the most. A decent yugioh deck is like $150 or more. Fk that!
Im making one rn. There will never be cards that arent easily aquirable. Ideally it shouldnt even be adventagious to proxy as no card will ever be worth more than a dollar.
my greatest per peeve with deck building games is how they seem to go for the weakest themes in the universe, for some reason. I love the mechanic, but every time someone recommends me a new great deck building game, the theme is something boring af like sheep hearding or home decoration
4:00 No, no, no, no, NO - StarCraft wasn't the first deckbuilder, and I'm tired of people mentioning Dominion in "how deckbuilding got started" discussions and not mentioning Arctic Scavengers - the true first deckbuilder. Yes, Dominion made the genre popular, but it wasn't first!
Lost Ruins? Deckbuilding? Maybe by the very, very furthest definition. I would not call that deckbuilding. How many times do you actually shuffle your deck in that game?
The publisher CGE’s website (and other promotional material) repeatedly refers to Lost Ruins of Arnak as a mix of worker placement and deck-building. I haven’t played it so can’t vouch for the accuracy of their promotional materials.
I hate your videos. They introduce me to more things that I'd like to try than my bank account will allow me to buy or my schedule will give me time to play. Now i have to plan which of these games I can sneak in tonight without my wife noticing.
I believe he is referring to the blind draft format for MTG, which very likely helped inspire the genre as a whole, but tbf is its own thing. @@AdaminWales
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These videos are INCREDIBLE. Absolutely packed with SO many examples. I can't believe how many games you're able to physically showcase specific mechanics for. Incredibly well done! I hope this gets more views.
Thank you so much - they’re a lot of work to put together so I’m glad it’s appreciated :)
A minor nitpick: Ascension already has static cards that are always available. Really interesting video overall, by the way, thank you!
One more thing many new designers don't know: One of the reason there aren't many dice pool games compared deck building is because dice ultimately cost more, so the game design will have to be worth the extra cost.
i thought it was because card are just superior to dice, still a lot of randomness, but at some point you're doom to get the other option as well, while with dice you could just indefinitly roll the bad dice without ever rolling the good one and it feel awful and when the opposite happen, the win feels undeserved
Thanks for giving Star Realms some love. That game is a blast! Also fast to setup and fits in one small box when done.
Have you played Dale of Merchants or Volfyirion? IMO they improve upon Star Realms by having better synergies and market unclogging
wait... how did I miss this video?! what a relief it popped up now.
Why has it taken me so long to find your wonderful channel. Insightful and fun.
great vid, thanks for not just the references to other games, but also showing the relevant information on the card/with gamplay! that was EXTREMELY helpful more than just showing the box cover as other videos do.
Thank you for this quality content about one of the best mechanisms in the board gaming hobby! 🙌🏻
Such a helpful overview of the diverse mechanics within deck building! Thank you!
A brilliant, informative video! The Star Wars Deckbuilding Game has really stood out this year for us with the ability to attack enemy cards in the market (Galaxy Row), and with Capital Ships protecting a series of “final boss” bases. It’s been hitting our table a LOT. I hope it gets the support needed for future expansions! Have you made a video on your personal deckbuilding favorites? I’ll look to see…thank you!
No, I haven’t made a video on my favourite deckbuilders - I don’t tend to do those sort of videos. So many channels do “Top 10 XYZ games” videos, so I try to use a different slant and do “Top 10 mechanisms” videos instead.
But this video pretty much covers my favourite deckbuilders anyway!
Amazing in-depth video! I entered the hobby through Dominion around 2013 and was enraptured ever since by the deck-building mechanism, as it reminded me of my teenage years of playing and collecting MtG. 4 years later I designed Tournament Fishing, which I was surprised to see in your video. Great work!
The algorithm reads minds now? Started thinking of designing a deck builder a week ago.
Fantastic looking channel, subscribed.
What a compreehensive discourse on Deckbuilding games! Amazing content! Thanks a lot, from Brazil 🇧🇷!!
So just to clarify, the difference between bag builders and deck builders aside from material is how the probabilities and reuse of the pieces plays out. If you are Bag/Pool Building you don't typically go through the entire bag before resetting it(if, in fact, you ever do); this is fundamentally different than deckbuilders where the point of reset is simply the deck running out.
So redundancy of the same pieces has a higher ceiling in bag builders compared to deck building where you draw through every prior piece before accessing your newly acquired ones. Bag builders therefore provide faster positive feedback but higher variance; the potential to see some things more often and completely miss others. Deck builders may feel less dynamic but they more strongly capture the growing sense of accomplishment of building a synergistic engine with your cards; the variance of drawing cards in a particular order but knowing they will show up at some point.
Which gets to the major distinction being that deckbuilders offer the additional interaction in drawing hands of cards. There's an extra layer of control and strategy in how you play your hand out which make deckbuilders more complex and thougthful, especially when the cards themselves are modal in nature. Bag builders may be snappy and thrilling in comparison but I don't think they lend the same depth without accessing other mechanisms. There's also the fact that chips or the like don't offer the same opportunity for detailed information and specific mechanisms. In bag builders the pieces tend to have simple, predefined functions, or correspond to some external resource. They offer far less functional variety as a result.
This has given me a nice list of games to look up for inspiration! I've created a deckbuilding game where I think my twist has reduced the player interaction too much. As such I'm looking at ways other games increase interaction and other systems that can prevent games from devolving into solitaire.
But now I find myself intrigued by card-crafting games. I already have too many ideas on the backburner, but the amount of innovation in board games never ceases to amaze me.
I’m glad the video was helpful. Good luck with your deckbuilder! Lack of interaction isn’t the end of the world - plenty of Euro games are less interactive. As long as the game itself provides loads of feedback to the players (rewards, punishments, impactful decisions) that’s often enough. After Us is a deckbuilder with practically zero interaction. Or the game could be solitaire like Friday.
Thanks for the informative video! to me the unfortunate folly of deck builders is how solitaire they can feel, but I’ve got a design coming soon which I hope will subvert that deck builder stereotype.
Fort is an interesting deck builder I'd like to add to your list. All of your unused cards in a round return to the market for other players. If they don't take them, you get them back, but it really changes up how you decide which cards to purchase since you only get one action each turn.
If you only buy the best cards, someone will likely steal the one you didn’t use this round. If you only have one good card in your deck, you're sacrificing a turn and your other cards to say you'll play that once each deck cycle.
Makes you think about how to purchase some cards and get more cards to be used each round, and that’s not even talking about the public/private action system.
Yes, I've always fancied trying this one. Not had the chance yet.
My favorite X-builder has to be Cubitos, which probably wins best tactile experience within the genre. Instead of cards, your hand consists of tiny dice you get to throw again and again. The game is also unique in that each player can freely decide which unused dice to pick for each round, shifting the randomness from the cards you draw to the effect they provide instead. Not only do you replace your gray cubes with more and more colorful ones, you also get to use more per round, so by the end of the game, you'll be throwing 14 tinybdice at once.
I haven’t played it, but it has been mentioned a lot so I do need to give it a try!
I just stumbled across this and the funny thing is I'm making a deck building ttrpg right now.
Nürnberg Spielwarenmesse started today.... So I guess I am a little late in watching this video! Thanks for the tips! Hopefully my preparation was enough anyway. Otherwise, Ill have to start right away preparing for Spiel Essen 2024! 😂
My two favourite deck/bag building games you didn’t mention are A Study in Emerald, which is a unique multiplayer deck builder where you have a sort of area control/worker placement element to the market place and a secret team allegiance mechanic. The other is the fantastic Hyberborea, a streamlined 4x game where you have a bag building civilisation to manage.
Hi Adam, this is an amazing video! It's like learning the history of a board game mechanism and how it evolves. Keep up the great work!
One "kind of" variant that is interesting to explore is found in "Flamme Rouge", where you start with a fixed complete deck, draw a set of cards of which you choose one to play and remove that card entirely from the game, while the not chosen cards go back in the deck pile to be used in further rounds. More of a desk-destructing mechanism so to say.
It sets up a challenging choice of taking a quick benefit this turn but losing a good card versus holding on to a good card and sticking to a slow progress.
Top notch analysis, deck building is a great feature overall to implement, even if its just a side feature of the boardgame. It helps to reduce "downtime", at least artificial, players have always something to look at and think about in their hands.
Great video! I've been brainstorming a deck building game that I hope I can make a reality someday, and this video was really thought provoking and provided a lot of inspiration.
Really glad the video helped! Good luck with your deckbuilder! :)
Another place you can look for inspiration is digital deck builders, like Slay the Spire, Monster Train, and more varied options like Dicey Dungeons. Slay the Spire just got a physical version but there are lots of neat mechanics in each to look at, such as removal of the "market" instead tying deckbuilding to advancement through the game.
New to the channel - great video! As someone who is making a deck builder pirate video game, this is a great summary of the innovations over the years.
this is an excellent video, I got so many inspirations from your examples! thank you!
Beautiful overview of essential deckbuilding games. Very valuable video.
Thanks! This is a good overview.
great video, with clear talking over very well edited visuals. Very educational for a designer.
Thanks for the feedback - much appreciated.
Thank you so much for making these videos, they are so helpful.
Deckbuilding is easily my favorite mechanic in a game. There are just so many things it can simulate.
Definitely still working on my own game though. Been at it for about ten uears and have had so many mental prototypes but, I feel that I am close to being able to make something interesting.
35:02 Dragon Ball Z or GT had something similar. I'm sure it was one of those. You overlay cards that changed aspects of a previous card. I love that idea, but ultimately faces a few problems. These cards are going to wear pretty quickly given sleeving isn't really an option. With Gloom the cards seen underneath becoming less visible as you stack cards. Mystic Vale has you constantly sliding cards among each other.
Replacing any of the transparent elements is incredibley more difficult than just printing out a general card. Neat idea, but prone to being throw away after enough plays. What I love is that Mystic Vale was brought to PC which makes it infinitely less fragile, and infinitely much faster. Very little setup, and no packup required. You can also play solo against computer opponents.
Check For glory. Its a deckbuilder with a phase that plays like MTG that matches perfectly the theme.
There is a deckbuilding game called Warmachine and its sister set Hordes High Command. The difference is, each player has their own market and has combat. Another is Apex Therapod were each player is one of the carnivore dinosaurs which each has their own market but for resources, you hunt the prey to evolve or adapt.
This is such an amazing video. Thank you for bringing your wealth of knowledge to inspire. I’m so excited to dig into my own concept
Thanks, glad it was helpful.
Loving your energy and presentation!
Great video, you did miss a great card acquisition mechanic for deck builders. Eminent domain. You choose an action and gain a card of that action. You can spend multiple cards of the same action, so the more you do an action, the better you get at it .
You should do a video on deduction games, like Clue, Suspicion, Mystery of the Abbey, and Deception, murder in hong Kong. I feel like it’s a genre that has a lot of inherent issues, but can be fun if executed correctly
Kinda surprised that Mage Knight didn't get mentioned at all. Its not particularly unique, but it's one of the largest deck builder games currently avalible and it embodies many of the common systems.
Also somewhat surprised that factional cards weren't mentioned. They show up in quite a few deck builders and provide some intresting meta strategies for building a cohesive deck from random cards.
Master class 👏👏
Retraction of previous post - mea culpa. StarCraft 2007, Dominion 2008, Arctic Scavengers 2009. Thanks for the correction, Adam!
Phew! Glad I wasn’t mistaken! Thanks :)
Saddened that you didn't mention Resident Evil DBG! It was one of the earliest DBG games with so many mechanics that are shared amongst all these styles, one of the rare dominion based games designed in 2010 with several expansions it was a push your luck styled variable player power psudo-co-op game.
an incomparable summary of the mechanism. what a great work! thank you
Super video - thanks. It's great that you take the trouble to credit the designers of the lesser known earlier games (e.g. the one before Dominion). My most played games are probably Star Realms and Friday (both have excellent addictive phone apps). I also really like El Dorado. I can't get past the ugly art and graphics on Clank so sadly it leaves me cold. Among us looks beautiful. Where does it sit on your engagement ladder? Top rung?
BTW, did you know that one of your faves Hab un gut is back in print. I bought it and played with my group a few times. We've all really enjoyed it.
Glad you’ve enjoyed Hab & Gut - I was aware that it’s back. I wish it had a graphic overhaul - I can’t really justify buying it again just to get an English cover and rulebook! 😂 (As much as I like the original look).
My wife and I just finished Clank Legacy, and it’s been really fun. But I think I’m probably done with Clank after 11 games or so.
Among Us probably wouldn’t reach the top rung just because it has zero thematic integration (the theme is irrelevant) and almost zero interaction. I do like it though - and the beautiful art lifts it a lot. Planet of the Apes is my favourite film franchise (especially the Heston original, but I like the new trilogy). So I was always going to get drawn into this one.
Wow, I'm so happy I found this channel. Another happy subscriber here!
Thanks so much. I hope you find the other videos enjoyable too.
Thank you for the explanation! All of your videos have really done a lot to help me work on my games.
Could you do a video on how you design the cards for your games? I watched your videos about Launch Tabletop and I was hoping for some clarity on how you used AI art for those prototypes?
I've been wondering this too because AI art can be so tedious
Static market place is a great example of fair design. Less luck involved getting the cards you are after, and little to no stealing of cards from another player. It also means you wont have cards that don't work in the deck you are building, or can't be purchased clogging the market space, wasting turns/action to clear them out. I'll point to Shadowrun: Crossfire as a fine example of our experience with a randomized market space.
7:47 Not true. I've mentioned Aeon's End which doesn't involve shuffling your deck. It's brilliant and cuts down on time. You can set yourself up in future turns to have the cards in hand you want in future turns. Can, but not always as the game will have mechniasms to try and foil that, some Adversaries more than others. As for being dynamic, the game is very dynamic. You don't play with the same market each session, you don't have to use the same characters, and you don't even have to fight the same adversaries. You can randomize those elements. Not even playing the same Nemesis will result in the same game played as their deck is randomize during setup from an impressive pool of options. This is why it is hands down one of my fave deck builders out there. They've even made it possible to play as a series of games sturng together with the players getting progressively stronger.
It's like an opera that is just a catalog aria, but without the music
Deckbuilding not only incorporated deck construction into gameplay, it also fixed the pay to win aspects collectable card games suffer from. They also tend to be more balanced and fair in my experience.
Shame not to mention of Xenon profiteer, one of the most inovative early deckbuilders that is frequently overlooked because of (I suspect) it's horrible theme-- Persistent money, tableau building, and a heavy focus on deck deconstruction.
Tyrants of the Underdark is another one that deserved mention-- great area control game, plus introduced culling for points.
I don't mind the theme for the game, but there seems to be more value in building out your tableau than doing anything other than filter elements from your deck. It's a good discussion about how card shedding is good, though.
I'd really like to hear your thoughts on economic systems in games
16:56 explorer could not move into 2 machetes field
17:00 sailor could not move into 2 paddles field
Thanks for pointing out the rules error :)
Since it’s not a review, or a “how to play”, hopefully it doesn’t reduce the usefulness of the video.
@@AdaminWales sure, sure :) no worries
i think making the character creation more interesting than the game in ttrpg was a phenomenon that only came around with the overcomplication of said character creation in the latter editions. i definitely prefer games with simpler character creation, and if character creation is the most fun part of a ttrpg, then you might want to consider playing a game that puts more focus on the actual game. to use D&D as the example: Original D&D and the so called basic/Expert version
Great video. How do you or would you go about balancing value of cards? Spreadsheet?
I think that is probably the way to go. It’s hard to quantify the power (cost) of an action so frequently it will come down to playtesting and seeing how it feels.
War. War was the first deck builder.
A most excellent video thank you for this! An honorable mention to MTG draft (especially Cube draft) format could have made sense as it is probably an inspiration for the deck-building genre.
Love Ascension. It has three static cards though, which is exactly the number of static cards that Mystic Vale has. You can always purchase more money, more attack, or kill a cultist. It helps balance out needs for what's in the river.
Obviously that also means Ascension has two currencies: Money and Blood.
It also has Constructs. They provide a constant affect once you draw them from your deck. In the original edition, the more victory points a Construct is worth, the less it does for you. It was an interesting balance they abandoned in later editions.
I'm honestly a little disappointed that you go so much into other deck builders but ignore the number of ways Ascension added to the deck building genre. You even mentioned the changing river but claim there are no static cards >.
Another great video! Please do engine building next!
Engine building is largely covered in the Tableau Building video. They’re very similar concepts. So I don’t want to make another video which will be largely repeating the same stuff. I’m sure I’ll get to it eventually though!
I´m soy happy for your existence
is there a launch tabletop but with less of a shipping fee? like, a factory in the us?
There are not many print on demand services worldwide (for small production runs). But there are certainly a small number of competitors, which are largely based in the US. I haven’t used them so can’t specifically recommend.
You should try Aeon's end
I like deck builders. Crafting a deck as you play the game, as a core game mechanic. My faves are Aeon's End, and Apex Theropod Deck Building Game. I actually don't own Dominian as I find it far more hilarious -buying- I mean hiring maids with love in Tanto Cuore. The one downside I find with many deckbuilders is the ability to just swipe cards from a market space away from another player, and how much luck comes into the equation. Some don't provide enough options to ganrer wins like Legendary Encounters: A Firefly Deck Building Game, and some don't let you really build much of a deck, like in Keep The Heroes Out, although still entertaining. I don't consider Millenium Blades a deck builder. It is very much a anime TCG/CCG simulation. Deck building is building is building a deck by play cards. This has you buying cards with wads of cash (so true to life haha) making collections and building your deck for a match, not playing the game to build your deck loop. Because if Millenium Blades is a deck building game, then every TCG, and CCG out there is too.
I have a card game concept that features many mechanics taken from elsewhere. Sadly it's a solo player game, and this isn't what I typically want. There's ways to make it multiplayer, but ultimately it works better as a pure solo game. I don't play solo games unless they are on a computer/console, or I am serisouly unable to make use of these in which case the games I do play are very portable. Why am I coming up with solo games is beyond me....
I didn’t use Millennium Blades as an example of a deck-building game (it isn’t one). I used it as an example of taking an activity which exists ‘around’ gaming and making it the entire game.
Like Roll Player which takes generating a D&D character and makes that into a game.
Dominion took pre-game deck construction (as in TCGs) and made it the whole game.
I wonder if there are other examples of this? What else do we do ‘around’ a game which isn’t actually the game itself?
Off the top of my head: how about a game where you paint miniatures in-game? Or a game where you pack the components away as you play?
That reminds me of Friedemann Friese’s Fast Forward games where you learn the rules as you play.
@@AdaminWales I definitely missed that point. Sorry.
Well deck building is pretty significant aspect to all CCGs, and TCGs and while it isn't the main event, this itself is factor for the enjoyment of the products.
Some round about game mechanics that aren't a focus. Hm. It's not something that is generally focused on. Well as above, anything that would fall into setup would be. Since setup isn't part of the game, but the preparation of the game to be played.
Dragon Dice has you make armies from dice, so consideration of dice is important. Dice size represeent health which is used to downgrade and upgrade throughout the game but only if they are available in your pool during play.
Choosing, or even randomizing the 'market' for Qwarriors or even Dominon sets the rules that will be used within any given session. You are creating the games rules, and direction. Similar to picking characters for Mythwind, Pathfinder tACG, Keep the Heros Out, and even Vast..
To me, everything within playing games is an intended mechanic to consider while playing. Like Millenium Blades has many aspects to it all that tie into simulating playing as a CCG/TCG player. I consider the buying/selling/trading as an integral part of a core mechanic of the game, much like building your deck for the matches, and set collection. I think that the choosing of what card 'packs' to use for the game to be more of the 'around' element since it doesn't actually happen during play. It shapes the game, but isn't the game itself. Perhaps I am overthinking this too literal. Maybe?
It is wonderful to see all the different mechanics intertwine into something more complex.
You've actually had me look up some of the games I didn't know about. If I had more people to game with I'd certainly want to grab myself Starcraft tbg and Thunderstone, not sure which since there's 3 different versions, two which can be intergrated into one another.
There are a lot of various ways for deck building that you truly didn't talk about...
Check after the virus for deck building with hand management
Check superhot the card game for unique shifting market/hand/pool affected by your own actions
Even check Shake up, chiseled and other games that are deck deconstruction game which means instead of deck building you ruin/thin your deck as the entire mechanism of the game
Thank you - some interesting new suggestions to look up! Will take me a while to check out the 4600 games in the database that I didn’t mention.
@@AdaminWales I look forward to your rapid reviews of the other 4600 games :D
@@AdaminWales chop chop!
amazong video
How about a literal "deck building" game where you're a D.I.Y. Dad trying to complete an outdoor living space before a planned gathering. You need to acquire lumber, upgrade tools, get a helper of various skill, fight weather, deal with building codes...
It exists! :)
boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/175846/deck-building-the-deck-building-game
I'm creating a TCG around Toastmasters. Fulfilling roles and participating in meetings gives points, but using filler words like 'um' and going overtime reduces points. Members who are players can buy Consumable items, usually one-time use, to counter fillers and overtime, but to do so, they must pay from the points they earned during meetings. Or they can buy Avatars that can use similar effects as long as they have enough Energy. And at the end of the year, those who want to can face off against an opponent in a _DnD_ style encounter, using the decks built over the year.
Currently I'm using photos I took of plastic models, mostly gundam plamo, for the Avatars, especially since they're so easy to customize. I'm trying to get an Educational, Non-Commercial Use License from Bandai to be able to use my photos, but so far I haven't found the right department.
Any advice on this would be appreciated.
Slay the Spire killed the genre for me. It just has never gotten any better than it. It's the best most refined and replayable deck building game out there
Yup
"Deck building games have a degree of randomness"
Deck building games SO FAR.
great content!
Dawncaster ftw
Would MTG work as a deck builder? Like, you start with only basic lands and maybe some very cheap or free spells. And you may opt to buy cards for their mana cost, but they go into your graveyard (which is periodically recycled) instead of into play.
And you could also allow attacking cards in the market or targrt them difficult card effects. Though you'd have to make it explicit that their effect only applies in response to your actions. So having cards in the marketplace that have protection would protect them from your attack, but having cards in the market that automatically attack or are attacked if able does not make that happen. Their effect isn't constantly active.
Has a sponsor and doesn't put a link in the description.
Good spot! Rectified.
Player elimination? HUGE issue. Not the minor one claimed.
Credibility issue: the claim that monopoly is lengthy . IF PLAYED BY THE RULES, monopoly is pretty quick to every property being owned, as any ownable space is owned upon first time landed upon - as it goes to auction IMMEDIATELY after rejecting the list price. Also, there's no money from free parking; all fines/fees go to the bank, the bank is limited to the money mix, and the game overall runs a mere 1-2 hours.
Tables: tables aren't a problem, if they're on the board or the player shields.
Hidden Info: If the info was public, having a shield makes it into a memory function, and memory games are a pain in the arse. (Also, having elementary for years, kids do NOT do better; they just tolerate it better.)
The best roll and move agency is control over direction: Kids of Catan turns cut-throat when you choose which direction to move. Makes the playable age range go from 3-7 to 3-90...
Wait Starcraft has a board game? I have to look into this possible wreck. I might actually enjoy it.
I have World of Warcraft the board game. I can tell you this game is a space consumer, and time consumer.
It's not a deckbuilder in any sense, and I would love to play this game, sadly wouldn't have the players for that.
The critical thing about in-game deck building is that it is not Pay To Win. MTG, Pokemon and all those other “TCG” games are essentially Pay To Win by creating a marketplace for overpowered cards.
Yep, I love decking building games, but I got tired of MTG and Yugioh. The ban list in Yugioh is stupid. I am sticking with star realms, ascension, clank. I enjoy other games too, but I usually go back to play these games the most. A decent yugioh deck is like $150 or more. Fk that!
Im making one rn. There will never be cards that arent easily aquirable. Ideally it shouldnt even be adventagious to proxy as no card will ever be worth more than a dollar.
@@Rucnastry LOTR LCG
@@GramMcM Does that game have a lot of variations or scenarios? I have been trying to decide that game, SW LCG, or marvel champions.
@@Rucnasmtg meta deck prices will make you go insame
32:27 me when someone asks what the second phase of psychosexual development is
my greatest per peeve with deck building games is how they seem to go for the weakest themes in the universe, for some reason. I love the mechanic, but every time someone recommends me a new great deck building game, the theme is something boring af like sheep hearding or home decoration
4:00 No, no, no, no, NO - StarCraft wasn't the first deckbuilder, and I'm tired of people mentioning Dominion in "how deckbuilding got started" discussions and not mentioning Arctic Scavengers - the true first deckbuilder. Yes, Dominion made the genre popular, but it wasn't first!
Can you provide a source? BGG has StarCraft listed as published in 2007, Dominion as 2008, and Arctic Scavengers as 2009.
Nice diplomatic way of telling me I'm wrong. Can't trust anyone these days. @@AdaminWales
Lost Ruins? Deckbuilding? Maybe by the very, very furthest definition. I would not call that deckbuilding. How many times do you actually shuffle your deck in that game?
The publisher CGE’s website (and other promotional material) repeatedly refers to Lost Ruins of Arnak as a mix of worker placement and deck-building. I haven’t played it so can’t vouch for the accuracy of their promotional materials.
+
I hate your videos.
They introduce me to more things that I'd like to try than my bank account will allow me to buy or my schedule will give me time to play.
Now i have to plan which of these games I can sneak in tonight without my wife noticing.
deck building didn't exist before 2007 ? bro what ? drafts...
Covered at 1m56s into the video. “Deckbuilding” is a different genre to pre-game deck construction used in CCGs etc.
I believe he is referring to the blind draft format for MTG, which very likely helped inspire the genre as a whole, but tbf is its own thing. @@AdaminWales