AOPA Air Safety Institute Presents: When is the Impossible Turn Possible?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2021
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McSpadden’s conclusions: right pilot, right plane, right conditions. In the turn back accident that took his life, he was in the right hand seat in an aircraft owned by the PIC, a former NFL player, so it’s entirely likely that McSpadden’s expertise and experience weren’t given a chance to make a difference in those first few critical moments of decision making. In other words, the right pilot might have been there but not in the right circumstances. RIP with respect and appreciation for all Spad did to make the rest of us safer.
There are way too many monday morning quarterback in the recent posts. As in the video, all of them said turn back is NOT possible in every airplane. As in the Bonanza, turn back is indeed an impossible turn. They tried it three times and all three failed. Even with the RV4, a normally very high performance airplane, with good climb characteristics, could not make the 180deg turn back. And even for the airplane that was successfully made it back, when trying the same turn with a heavy fuel load or a high density altitude, the turn back was impossible. They laid it all out in the video. Of course many of the trolls did not watch the entire video. Such is the state of social media today.
I disagree, I hated this video when it came out. It showed high time pilots in a no stress situation making the impossible turn. Both pilots in the accident airplane were very experienced and they thought they could make it.....just like much less experienced pilots think they can make it based on this ridiculous video.
These experienced pilot died in a wreck caused by them believing their own stupid hype.
The video was clickbait stunting that has probably killed more pilots believing it's "findings"
McSpadden's accident was not a "turnback" event. You will see this when the facts come out.
@@PilotCFIWesHead They almost made it back. But someone popped out that draggy Cardinal landing gear and they felt short to the hill ouside the runway. I bet that was the owner of the airplane, not Mac Spadden. Owners will try that to avoid the cost of landing gear up.
@@BrianSchiff100% correct! They just failed to make the embankment. Just heading back to airport with power rollback.
As a flight instructor, I’m not supportive of experiments like this. Regardless of the conclusion (that under some circumstances it is possible to turn), the whole premise is wrong:
1/ In practice, there will not be enough time to evaluate if the conditions as just right; the pilot should not even consider a turn back given the risk.
2/ We don’t want people to practice these kinds of experiments because inevitably they will turn deadly to some.
The impossible turn should not be attempted regardless if it’s physically possible. Flying is all about risk management. As Frank Borman once said: “A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill”.
The way to be prepared for landing straight ahead in case of loss of thrust is to:
1/ Mindfully brief what we’re going to do in case of loss of thrust on *every* takeoff (don’t just say it; take a moment to truly think about it considering terrain ahead),
2/ Monitor engine parameters carefully, almost as if we were expecting it to fail to minimize startle effect,
3/ Practice, practice , practice in a good FTD or FFS. That’s how we can build the right muscle memory and reduce the risk of fatalities.
As NASA study demonstrates, we only need around 30 ft of distance to stop and survive the 9G crash (see FAA Flying Handbook Chapter 17: Emergency Procedures). Just push the stick forward, maintain wings level and hope for the best. Yes that’s the hardest thing psychologically, but we can train to do the right thing regardless how it feels.
The other thing we can do is to stop teaching and thinking of the elevator as the up/down control. As W. Langewiesche argued in his legendary book “Stick and Rudder”, if we were to label controls, the elevator should be labeled simply as the “Angle of Attack” control, and throttle should be labeled as the “Up or Down” control. Further, as Langewieche pointed out, when we practice hundreds of times per flight making small altitude corrections with the elevator and not even touching the throttle, we are effectively building the wrong muscle memory: reason being, if the pilot pulls a little to increase altitude a little, it only makes sense that they’ll pull a lot when they want to increase altitude a lot. No wonder that in case of loss of thrust, pilots tend to instinctively pull back. Better to think of elevator as a speed break and then mindfully develop the right muscle memory: want to change airspeed? use the elevator; want to change altitude? work your power setting while maintaining constant AoA.
I am so sad to hear of Richard McSpadden's passing - particularly in the exact situation he's warning about here.
The urge to turn back seems to be almost impossible to resist
I don't think Richard would have tried the turn, I don't think he was flying the plane, it belonged to the other pilot. Likely the other guy turned back and even if Richard took over flying they would have been committed already once they banked.
@@macguffin460 like what?
I guess I was lucky! Back in 1977 when I attended flight school at a crop-dusting school that also had standard Par61 students! My instructor had me practice many emergency scenarios including the so called “impossible turn.” It was a rural airport and not very busy accept for students! I had to perform the turn back several times. I’m still here so I did it successfully! I never had a problem with it! Lower the nose and maintain airspeed! We also practiced full power spins! I learned how to pic out a tree to clip when there was not enough space to actually land! I have never had a startle factor! My mind has an internal switch that automatically engages to do what ever is necessary! We always turned to the left on power off takeoffs! There is nothing like flying a super-performance crop duster! The advanced students would fly over us and spray us while we were landing! Sometimes they would land on the taxiways right beside us! We were well seasoned before we got our Certificates!
That is how real pilots should be. Not startled even on take off emergencies and talented. But FAA maggots dont enforce maneuvers they cannot do. LOL>>
@@CFITOMAHAWK Those seat warmers at FAA only require mild maneuvers. Make you A MILD MANEUVERING PILOT. Then they crash on harder maneuvers. Military and crop dusters laugh at FAA soft training.
How ironic. RIP Richard McSpadden.
@@wheelairrentals7132 It is probably too early to make that assessment. We don't know what the surrounding terrain was like yet. We do know from the exercises above that the impossible turn is possible some percentage of time under the right circumstances. He may have made a choice and lost the battle of probability.
We will know more when they release preliminary findings…….. Rest in Peace
A turn is impossible if the altitude, stall speed of the aircraft, and distance from the runway are insufficient. With pilot skill factored in as well as the unknown distance from the end of the runway (because it is 180 degrees behind the airplane), in MOST ALL engine out situations, the likeliest survival will be to land straight ahead +- 30 degrees left or right.
@@sonnymccutcheon1035 You forgot one of the more important elements of the return turn, the winds!!!
@@wheelairrentals7132I don't think Richard would have tried the turn, I don't think he was flying the plane, it belonged to the other pilot. Likely the other guy turned back and even if Richard took over flying they would have been committed already once they banked.
When you know you are going to lose an engine and can plan exactly what you are going to do when it happens try the turn. Of course when you do lose an engine, you don't have the time or the desk to sit at and plan it all. Unless you are at pattern altitude and have some time to look around and make a decision, go straight or nearly straight. I think you proved that for us. Thanks. Always plan where you are going to go BEFORE takeoff. ...
The thing is, finding out when it's not possible will cost your life.
YOU NEED TO KNOW TURNBACKS.- Not only for EFATO. You need turnbacks also on Circling Approaches, Flyover Turnbacks, Box Canyon turnbacks, overhead airport to enter the 45 after. Many accidents on those 5 places were the pilot made turnback errors and crashed. His fault- for not knowing Turnbacks well. A 180 is not a full turnback, just an U Turn. Turnbacks are bigger turns that finish at almost or the same place you were before. A course reversal, not just a heading reversal 180 turn. Turnbacks are more than a 180. Many CFI's call a 180 a turnback. No its not.
TO TEACH TURNBACKS;
It is better to teach "Turnbacks To A Flyover" FIRST. The GRM TURNBACKS first, then the emergency and circling ones later on after you do them level flight well. I taught them all 2 decades ago and researched about the accidents causes on them a lot. Most pilots dont know those maneuvers well and do them very wrong, or stall and crash. Even ATPs crashes.
1-The Teardrop Turnback to a flyover a spot on ground do it first. Fly at Vglide speed slow flight over highway (w. a Crosswind). With flaps 10 degrees. 1,000' agl. Fly over spot on highway, turn away from wind 40 degr. , then into wind. Fly over the spot on highway again, after flyover repeat same steps on other side. Do 3 on each side until perfection Teardrop Turnbacks. One turn turnbacks require 2k feet dist. from flyover spot. Dont do them yet. Those are more difficult and dangerous. Later on i will type about those Hook Turnbacks. Cropdusters do them only after getting low in weight. I used to call them Question Mark Shaped Turnbacks. 2k distance after flyover, Vglide speed, bank 45 degr. more later on that QMark ? Turnback.
2-Then Box Canyon Turnbacks Scenario (Climbing Vx but at 60% power only to sim a 10k density alt.) Then the Circling Approach overfly + Turnback, then the LOTOT Turnbacks and no power EFATO at end. Some day you will have to do those maneuvers.
Some say to keep the ignorance. But Ignorance is not the solution, IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM. Most pilots that crashed doing turnbacks on those 5 places were Turnback ignorant
1
The decision to not try to execute the impossible turn commits one to basically a controlled crash. A crash in which the primary goal is to survive, not save a plane that has already failed you. Most often if one elects to try to return to the field the result is a very deadly straight down accelerating spin into the ground or sudden impact crashing into terrain
It was hard for me to watch this.
Kudos for these pro aviators to do this kind of work.
Also, why the heck does it take decades for GA to get to a point where this scenario is being dissected so carefully and
communicated to the GA community?
Also, seriously why so many take-off engine power failures? It is too many.
20:25 if you are afraid of being “too high” why not stay straight for a few more seconds before making the 180?
RIP Sir Richard.
Unfortunately, he just found this one out himself a few days ago. Sadly it didn't end well for him. It is a great loss to the aviation community.
It would be beneficial to get some eye witness accounts regarding the aircraft altitude when engine power was lost. I know it’s soon after the incident. Anyone have this altitude info to share?
@@shayjohnson5830 Yeah, I’m all about not turning back “low”. But, “low” can be interpreted differently. I had an engine failure after takeoff and made the impossible turn just fine and, used a parallel taxiway. Regardless of the textbook emergency landing, my nerves were shot. Some said I looked “low”. I say, know your airplane. In this recent fatality case most folks can sit comfortably at home and analyze the incident. But until we have the majority of the facts, including altitude, it’s just too much speculation. Looking forward to read the final report, some day.
Sometime..... in distant some day
@@ludvikblondal9885 2 years from now. And most in NTSB are hired lately by Mild Maneuvering Pilots' that dont know how to do EFATO Turnbacks. They will evaluate a maneuver they cant do themselves.
McSpadden's accident was not a "turnback" event. You will see this when the facts come out.
How ironic is it that McSpadden talks about the impossible turn-back here and many other times elsewhere, and then he dies in a turn-back accident. You can convince yourself and others of your expertise in a particular subject using the theoretical thought process and controlled pre-expected simulated engine failures, but when it happens to you for real when you don't expect it, the startle factor is a killer unless you keep discipline and resist the urge to turn back to the runway.
Be willing to put the plane down close to straight ahead with minimal manuevering to avoid stalls and spins and to avoid obstacles and injury to people on the ground. Just after take off, you're too close to the ground, your airspeed dropping, you're losing altitude rapidly, you almost have to not even think about turning back. The vast majority of the time, turn-backs end in fatalities.
please people, lets just fly straight ahead below 1000ft AGL and cut our losses. it may be our best chance to stay alive in an engine out on takeoff situation.
You don't need to reduce climb performance. Just delay turn back and/or slip. On takeoff climb after local obstacle clearance turn 30 deg. off runway heading downwind of any crosswind which makes the turn easier. Push the nose down hard and make at least 60 deg. bank. Keep pushing to unload g's in an almost split S and you can get the direction changed in a few seconds. Don't think about best glide speed until turn is complete. A 170 A will do it from 300 ft.
SHOW THE VIDEO.. PROVE IT. On a normal 3k feet long runway. I have videos from 1995 turnback partial powr Cherokees from 500 ag. No power with high winds from 600 agl. Winds made me use slip and flaps too to a 3,500 long landing roll. 1995. WHERE IS YOUR VIDEO LANDING ON RUNWAY TURNING 6O BANK FROM 300 AGL. Where is it?
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Well I spent several hours practicing it 62 years ago so there's no video. It's not necessary to get get on the runway, only the environs of the airport when it is much preferable to woods, houses or deep water. My tests were at idle power, low gross weight and calm winds. It is a dangerous maneuver to be attempted when the alternative is catastrophic.
They almost made it back. But someone popped out that draggy Cardinal landing gear and they felt short to the hill ouside the runway. I bet that was the owner of the airplane, not Mac Spadden. Owners will try that to avoid the cost of landing gear up. McSpadden was and expert. Not the other guy. Many good pilots have been killed as passengers.
YOU NEED TO KNOW TURNBACKS.- Not only for EFATO. You need turnbacks also on Circling Approaches, Flyover Turnbacks, Box Canyon turnbacks, overhead airport to enter the 45 after. Many accidents on those 5 places were the pilot made turnback errors and crashed. His fault- for not knowing Turnbacks well. A 180 is not a full turnback, just an U Turn. Turnbacks are bigger turns that finish at almost or the same place you were before. A course reversal, not just a heading reversal 180 turn. Turnbacks are more than a 180. Many CFI's call a 180 a turnback. No its not.
TO TEACH TURNBACKS;
It is better to teach "Turnbacks To A Flyover" FIRST. The GRM TURNBACKS first, then the emergency and circling ones later on after you do them level flight well. I taught them all 2 decades ago and researched about the accidents causes on them a lot. Most pilots dont know those maneuvers well and do them very wrong, or stall and crash. Even ATPs crashes.
1-The Teardrop Turnback to a flyover a spot on ground do it first. Fly at Vglide speed slow flight over highway (w. a Crosswind). With flaps 10 degrees. 1,000' agl. Fly over spot on highway, turn away from wind 40 degr. , then into wind. Fly over the spot on highway again, after flyover repeat same steps on other side. Do 3 on each side until perfection Teardrop Turnbacks. One turn turnbacks require 2k feet dist. from flyover spot. Dont do them yet. Those are more difficult and dangerous. Later on i will type about those Hook Turnbacks. Cropdusters do them only after getting low in weight. I used to call them Question Mark Shaped Turnbacks. 2k distance after flyover, Vglide speed, bank 45 degr. more later on that QMark ? Turnback.
2-Then Box Canyon Turnbacks Scenario (Climbing Vx but at 60% power only to sim a 10k density alt.) Then the Circling Approach overfly + Turnback, then the LOTOT Turnbacks and no power EFATO at end. Some day you will have to do those maneuvers.
Some say to keep the ignorance. But Ignorance is not the solution, IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM. Most pilots that crashed doing turnbacks on those 5 places were Turnback ignorant
1
This is extremely condition dependent. Each aircraft has a specified glide ratio for a particular flight condition. If the angle of climb w/ wind is too low relative to the runway, then you simply don't have enough altitude to get back over the ground distance required. That is, wind matters and a headwind is very helpful. As a thought experiment, if the airplane was sitting on the runway and the relative wind was equal to climb speed you could always make it back because you would climb immediately over the runway with no relative ground speed. But, as the cub pilot mentioned you'd be in danger of overrun on the other end. It's a little more subtle than represented here.
This video demonstrates pretty effectively why the "no turnback" rule of thumb remains as valid as ever. The KISS principle applies: with low altitude engine failure, focus on the best landing spot within your forward hemisphere, maintain safe glide speed and land the best you can. Turning back successfully from 800 feet in a 172 or Supercub proves absolutely nothing - everybody knows you can fly a 180 degree power off approach in those airplanes from 800 feet. We do it every day. But at lower altitudes, every aircraft model and every load configuration is different; moreover, wasted time in making a decision can kill you - and it frequently has. All I can say is that I'm happy that Bonanza didn't lose an engine during the test flight! This was not a well thought out "test" program. One could be designed, but this was not it.
21:53 I wonder if your “low pitch” stops aren’t adjusted correctly.. it’s very common that they aren’t out of the box. Do you get 2650rpm statically on takeoff? Or does it flash to 2700 or more? The problem with relying on pulling the prop back is that on a single engine airplane, if you lose oil pressure (blown line, spun bearing ect..) the prop will go flat. You NEED the minimum prop angle (low pitch stops) adjusted correctly.. very easy to do.
I think I worked out the questions posed at the end, but for the benefit of those who perhaps did not, can you include them as subtitles or elsewhere please? I thought that this was a very, very good summary of the difficulties, thought processes and options available in this scenario. I'm in the process of producing a video of my experiences in performing this manoeuvre in the SD1, and your video has given me a lot of pointers..thank you.
The impossible turn is impossible...by definition.
If is was possible, it wouldn't be called impossible, would it now.....
In my Bonanza G36, General Hank Canterbury of BPPP, would lower the gear and increase the idle to replicate the net drag of a windmilling prop. (only doable in a retractable).
He then pulled power and said “where ya gonna land”. I aimed for a road.
He yelled, “Don’t make your problem someone else’s problem! Find a field”.
IIRC, the G36 typically lost about 750’ in a power-off 360. My SuperCub, Maule, SuperSTOL, and Aerotrek A220 Light-Sport were more in the 300-400’ range. I agree that a 45 degree bank is normally better than 20-30. Full-flaps and steeper turns can sometimes help for the 360, but obviously must be retracted for the glide. Don’t forget that you can slip like crazy if you come back too high.
This is a topic that is simply not taught well. If I have a high performance aircraft that reaches height early then WHAT IS THAT HEIGHT and distance from the field to make the impossible turn. And does it have to be a dead engine, what about partial failure.
Surely if an expert can’t make it don’t risk it.
Bottom line - DON’T TRY IT! Most pilots do not have the skill to properly dead stick an airplane while under stress and/or the ability to ascertain whether or not they are high enough considering the density altitude and loading to turn 270 degrees and make it back. So, DON’T TRY IT!
At about 25:50 the big guy says that closing the throttle “creates a vacuum in there that the prop cannot overcome” meaning that the prop cannot spin the engine over. This is not accurate. An engine has much less cranking resistance with a closed throttle than an open one. When checking the cranking pressure on a 2 or 4-stroke, the throttle should be held wide-open to take in maximum air for a higher reading.
This statement is not correct, but you are correct about getting a higher reading on a compression test with the throttle open. For example go out side to your snowmobile pull the plug wires so it won't start when you pull the cord to crank it, try cranking the engine with throttle closed then open, it is much easier to turn the engine with the throttle wide open.
When altitude is 10,000 ag level
FYI The slide displayed from 11:00 to 12:00 has the bank angles mislabeled in the graphic. In his talk, he says the inside tightest path is at 60 degrees bank, but the graphic states 10 degrees. The center path is stated to be 45 degrees (and what he recommends), but the graphic states 30 degrees. The outside shallowest path is stated to be 30 degrees but the graphic labels it 45 degrees.
Terribly amateur PowerPoint presentation with a tragic outcome.
Question: why not try a ‘stall turn’? Instant 180, low air resistance thus low drag, acceleration back to best glide? It takes practice, but it should save a lot of height
If you mean a hammer head, No Way. You have no prop wash on the rudder so you may simply end up in a tail slide and you likely would stall it before you get the nose up to 45 degrees. Go try it before advocating it.
@@hermandierks6702 thx Herman. Got the T-shirt. You need speed, not propwash to turn. Just like a glider does it... A plane is a plane is a plane.
I've practiced that extensively at altitude. Even with my high level of competence and experience, the maneuver is so challenging as to be more of a parlor trick than useful. Yes, I've flown gliders and aerobatics.
Or just try a Split S Maneuver from 800 agl on a Cessna or Piper or any 4-6 seats plane. Show you are better than Bob Hoover was. LOL..😂
R.I.P. 🌹 Dick
45 degrees , push down nose pretty far.
Just a guess but I'd say when your banker wont clear the loan for the money you need to buy an airplane....
The answer to question is never. Statistics.
The statistics only include the ones that didn’t make it --- not the ones that did . Not very useful .
Worst place to lose engine with hills and tall trees all over. Then a big strong bonehead owner doing mistakes too. Many good pilots have died as passengers of bad pilots.
th-cam.com/video/pwIvao_ONSY/w-d-xo.html pilots are supposed to know how to turn 45 bank. Are they?
This didn't age well.
never!
MacSpadden was not flying that airplane and i bet he, who had practiced EFATO Turnbacks" did not try a too low one. The ones who dont practice them are the ones that try them the wrong way, LIKE TOO LOW. The owner of the airplane is always flying it in photo missions not other man while the owner sits on side. MacSpadden got killed by that guy that didnt know turnbacks and turned back too low. The Ignorants are the ones that crash, not the ones with experience on the maneuver. Duhh!
The Cessna Cardinal looked like they could make the runway, but someone pop out the dragfull landing gear and they didnt. Most times the owners do that to save cost, not an expert like MacSpadden. MacSpadden was killed by a bad pilot. Also on photo you can see the airplane had a full up elevator. I took my commercial on that airplane and know it well. Owners kill a lot of passengers. Be careful who you fly with. Too many good pilots been killed by the pilot errors of others.
Is the turn back still controversial? Just don't folks. Land straight ahead and under control (not stalled). The turn back relies on too much precision. Look at this panel. Are they the average private pilot? NO, these are highly experienced and trained professionals, and one of them advocating a turn back is dead. An average amateur pilot stands no chance. LAND STRAIGHT AHEAD AND UNDER CONTROL.
Sadly, the AOPA is choosing to get in the middle of this no-win conversation. The impossible turn is IMPOSSIBLE. And there is NO WAY to train for the event. It is not a maneuver done at 1000 feet like responsible training altitudes require, even on the checkride. Attempting a low-slow 180 degree turn is nothing more than suicide if you do it intentionally .
Sorry, but I disagree. The video demonstrates that your statement is incorrect. It might be that the "one size fits all" response is Never Turn Back, but such a dogmatic response assumes that every pilot of every aeroplane flys by rote. I don't think that's the case, and a little bit of training, forward thinking and adopting a "What-If" mindset may just prevent accidents and modify the graphs a bit, for the better. Just my opinion....
@@TheMorayMosstrooper The video does not demonstrate that the turn can be made...and it cannot be made for the reason I noted. It is a danger to even propose to practice and assume that such a turn is in the tool bag at all. No such thing as "a little bit" when it comes to a deadly and impossible turn so close to the ground.
@@speedomars Thank you for your response. I consider that after 51 years of flying, I can appreciate well expounded arguments even if I have doubts about them - there is always something to be learned. Where your argument is concerned, I don't agree and retain my own opinion, but respect yours. I wish you safe flying...and a suitable landing area within 30 degrees of the runway heading at all times, under all conditions.
@@TheMorayMosstrooper So many former impossible things are normal in 2023. Turnbacks need practice, thats all. If too heavy, or hot and didnt climb steep enough, only turnback if some power and over a programed or marked on altimeter altitude. Most engine fails are partial power, not total unless the idiot didnt check fuel well.
@@CFITOMAHAWK Hi. This topic has generated quite a lot of comment but for some reason I didn't get notifications of many of them. I don't want to reopen the debate - it won't ever stop, and that's a good thing. However, I'll take that risk...the reason I began my investigation of the possibilities was as a result of an EFATO suffered by a colleague in the BFC. He isn't an "idiot" that "didn't check the fuel well" and I won't accept a comment like that without protest on his behalf. He was the unfortunate pilot who suffered the consequences of a total ignition failure when a critical part of the system - a 5 cent magnet - came loose. I think your evaluation of the scenarios that might occur is a little narrow in its scope. I still believe that this manoeuvre is possible BUT only under conditions that have been evaluated, practiced and, dare I say, expected. If the worst doesn't happen, then I have yet another reason to enjoy the day.
Never
AOPA please take down this content. Turnbacks are deadly. This little demonstration is not reality because every pilot knew what was coming. DO NOT TURNBACK.
So what's the consensus now? what's that? I can't hear you any longer.
Take away - keep on practicing the impossible turn, especially when you are with a jock and the jock is flying.
Most Engine fails on take off or EFATO are LOTOT, or partial power only. Like losing a cylinder or icing, etc. Easier to turnback with partial power. Most stalls are not on turnbacks but when under 200 agl, and pilot not used to land on grass, the pilot panics pull elevator too much and stalls it, even going straight ahead. Panic Pull and stall, even on top of a flat field. I have seen that on many photos on stalled airplanes on a flat field even with partial power on as the prop bent forward shows it..
How many pilots train turning tight 180's without engine power probably very few. Their minds are in full panic mode not thinking logically. Yes, you can turnback and make a successful landing. The risk is higher where if you have a nice open field risk is lower to just put it down there and let it get bent up some.
@@Mike-01234 If you practice, you wont panic. There is always a field behind you on the initial climb. It is called the runway you used. Many times there are not fields like that in front. 45 dgree bank is not tight turning. No big deal unless you are afraid of heights, LOL.>>.
@@CFITOMAHAWK The fact is may fatalities have those fields in front of them. Your arrogant tone will one day be your undoing.
This didn’t age well
Tragically wrong teaching.
33:25 that Bonanza is banking at only 35-40 degrees of bank and looks at too high speed too. Of course you will end up far and low from the runway. Duhhh !! Use the manly 45 degr bank and the real Vglide for the weight.