This pretty much sums up this whole thing. Yes there are those that will attack the devs/creators on Twitter, but they're usually a minority. Most people just don't buy/watch, since you know, it wasn't made for us. Then when the show/game fails, they blame the "toxic fan base", the same people they rejected.
I love hearing this from devs and directors. "Blah blah vocal minority," so what is the majority doing? The vocal ones are telling you what you did wrong and the majority is staying silent and not watching or buying your crap😂
I hope so but every media in every timeframe ever was mainly used to deliver a message to not say propaganda. Money is nice but they made billions over the years are well funded and connected - they can do that for a century before they go broke.
man. Being faithful are hard for these people. Idea to make movie from lore > be faithful to lore then make movie > profit. Fucking easy as counting 1,2,3.
This is from the media reporter losing his sway on films, though. They said to him they didn't really want to talk about it. He wouldn't print their words which very likely were 'we want to hear from our superb fans, not cretinous vultures that ruined our relationship with our audience like you and other journalists' The reason i say that as he paints that the studios hate us so hard without a shred of evidence.
Ehh, depends. Some people do overreact, more than ever before now that were a few generations deep into adult-babies. What’s happening here isn’t blaming fans for reacting poorly, it’s blaming consumers for not blindly handing over money for things they don’t want or like. Not blindly buying things you’re shamed into isn’t reacting poorly, it’s reacting normally.
@@JohnSmith-op7ls I think what was implied is they're trying to control how people can view something. "If you think it's bad your an ist or a phobe and you don't want to be that, so support us"
@@JPMonster13 Sure but that’s not really narcissism, that’s greed and authoritarianism. The few left at these companies who care about profits somehow think gaslighting people will get them to hand over their money and the rest are miserable people who think pretending to be activists, in as lazy a way possible, will get them attention, praise, and fame. It’s like they’re trying to make up for the fact that nobody loves them.
The Sonic example is absolutely perfect. It was a big meme of a movie and now a solid franchise. Because fans spoke up, they listened and put quality and effort into it and now people are happy.
Sonic Franchise is amongst of the few movies that truly listen to his fans. Thanks to the director Jeff Fowler. As Sonic and Sega Fan. They Live and Learn 🔵🌀 ⚫️🔴💎⚡️
I don’t think “super fan focus groups” are the solution though. Have you seen “super fans” for some of these franchises? For example, I’ve seen Sonic super fans put out some pretty cringeworthy self-insert fanfics… I think Game Grumps read a few on their channel and it was roooooough. 😂
Just like how Microsoft put 343 in charge of Halo, a bunch of "Halo fans" that don't like classic Halo and try to make a game they actually enjoy. Which isn't Halo.
they got that right. but they should look at those toxic ppl who make the franchises about their doctrine and don't care about the real stories/franchise. and the insult te vast majority of potential customers and then cry that most potential customers don't give them money for insulting them.
100%. It's honestly not complicated: As a producer of a product, you have to make a product that people actually want, NOT what you want them to want. Businesses are not entitled to a customer's money.
Always pay attention to the language. The fact that they're complaining about "hyper-Conservative bigotry and vitriol, prejudice hatred and hateful language" tells you what they still think of the actual fans and the criticism they receive. Also, worrying about "social media backlash" is what got them in this situation in the first place. They listened to random blowhards on Twitter who couldn't care less about the IP that they were complaining about. They just wanted to exercise power over and corrode things others enjoyed. They're not gonna change. They just want to find a way to play 3 card Monty with the fanbase, so that they can give YOU what THEY want while making it appear as if you're getting what YOU wanted all along.
Corporations don't care about anything but money. The activists they hired due to the perverse incentive of DEI are the problem, once that incentive is outweighed by the incentive to actually make money, things will shift back. Who knows, maybe in 20 years, we'll be annoyed by these corporations cramming Bible verses down our throat instead of lesbian space witches
Fans : "I need orange juice" Company : "Here is turd water" Fans : "But I need orange juice, I didn't ask for turd water" Company: "Omg look at these toxic fans on the rise"
yes. and the toxic ppl were the fascists who aggressively told us what we have to love and support and made 90% of the games/movies about their political doctrine. we aren't the "toxic ones wanting control" we are the ones being sick of exactly that
They would do that if they could, all this people can't create shit, that's why they trash already existing stories, because they don't know how to make new ones.
Lacks creativity yet they will be the first to spout that people with right/conservative leaning people are incapable of creativity. In short, it your message or your material can't withstand a little criticism what was it worth in the first place.
it is a control thing imo, like using fear or shame as a control to force the people to follow a certain way or think a certain way. if it doesn't work, they have no other choice, to capitulate.
@@budoshi-f2l fr. they're literally sorting certain labels and promoting them as either good and bad. and most of the gullible people on the internet fall right in.
"Toxic Fandoms" - You mean people that actually know, love, and care about what happens with the source material Like, even GRR Martin himself is outraged how they completely disregard key points and change the story in House of the Dragon.
And now that fat old man was so traumatized by the ordeal, that he can't even finish the damn books. But seriously, the only reason why the "toxic fandom" holds so much power, is because the fans tend to hold the majority opinion.
Yeah, here's the thing: if the only film or TV you're willing to produce relies on already established IP, you're going to be subjected to this level of scrutiny. Don't want to deal with it? Go write something original. Problem solved.
From their perspective, it's the same thing. They're so deep into their own Mary Sue Main Character Syndrome that they view any sort of disagreement, minor criticism or anything outside of worshiping everything they do as "toxic fandom".
That's toxic bigotry! You need to support these terrible products because of their messaging, and if you don't you're a bad person! I wonder why that marketing tactic hasn't worked so far?
"Toxic fandom" is apparently the definition for people that get mad when a franchise gets hijacked by shills trying to send a political message, whilst destroy every idea original pushed
@@leredditcommander8208 There wasn't any idea behind it. The original version was garbage, but they thankfully actually listened to the fans and changed it into something appealing, and wound up successful because of it. Now if only other series could do the same and actually listen to the main crowds instead of the screaming few.
Let's be honest tho it's kinda mental. They're literally painting people as toxic because people don't wanna consume whatever they want like.. Imagine you're a car seller, your customers are happy. Suddenly one day, you start selling bikes for the same price.. Not only that, you start destroying your old customers car. Your customers tryna explain to you that man, I need a car so, naturally, you call him toxic and entitled. When he goes to the next guy to buy the car, you have a complete meltdown that they ain't getting your bikes instead.. This is LITERALLY what's happening
Exactly this is so crazy. They call "fan retaliation" as if it was some evil coordinated premeditated attack, when poeple just dont like the movie and voice their opinion. Its freaking crazy land.
Well said, great analogy. Also the bike salesman is in cahoots with "pro" journalists and they send emails to each other about how much they hate car fans and how great bikes are for everything (including interstellar travel).
It does make sense. They borrow parts from your car to make the bike. Now your car is a shell of its former self and there's a bunch of bikes nobody wants to ride.
You have to love their logic: the majority of fans want the material to stay true to the source material = toxic fandom/gate keeping. A vocal minority demands there be changes to the material to fit their world views = true fans/They see nothing wrong here.
I love how they are convinced that the "1% toxic minority" somehow cancels out the alledged 99% of people that loved acolyte. Making no profit on the woke and badly writen shows is surely bc of the "small minority" not watching it lmao
Likely, they just want to take a step back from shoving crap and make a bit of money to convince the dumb investors. Then they will crank it up to 11after getting some funds back.
@@Dawid0912 I don't think the companies themselves want that. But the people making the products sure do. I mean it's not hidden, they say it outwardly on social media ALL THE TIME. Sadly for them companies need profits and seems to me the public tide has turned against the type of shit. The world is getting more intense and people want proper fiction. Not political messaging mascarading as fiction. As always. Money talks.
"People are just out for blood" I am, yeah. How many times am I expected to be called all sorts of absolutely horrific things for simply existing before I begin to react and say "No more." to all this nonsense?
You know what else came out when the first sonic did? Alita Battle Angel and the all female ghost busters reboot. Go by fan comments, go by tickets sales, go by the after market viewers. Sonic and Alita DOMINATED the sales and thumbs up that summer. Fans were saying: We Want This, Make More of THIS! And the Ghost busters was a flop. The producers response was not to say sorry, we hear you. No he ran out and insulted the fans and movie goers. It was THEIR fault that the movie didn't do good. The movie was impeccable and you are all toxic is basically the gist. One of the female comedians did a little whining about the movie reception, but understood since they got to see the dailies and the comments all along. Another said, she wasn't to thrilled about how the movie was a drag on her dating life! lol. So hollywood listened! Right?! Buzz, they ran right into another flop that nobody asked for, the all female lead Harley Quinn craptasticganza that everybody urgently ran out......and didn't watch. And again, they blamed the fans. Well, I guess technically at this point that's not true...."the Fans" were not "fan's" of this garbage.
The word "toxic" has become nothing more than a buzzword that has no meaning anymore. If simply not liking something and giving criticism is toxic, then call me the Chernobyl power plant.
You realise thst most people do like these fandoms right? Thise who falsely allege entire fandoms to be toxic based off of a minority of people are ALWAYS a minority and toxic themselves by virtue of their overgeneralisation.
id call you an unoriginal plagiarist without a proper thought instead. I saw the same comment made by another user who, most likely, took it from another user.
1:52 The sonic movie is the perfect example of this being applied successfully, turning a guaranteed flop into a success. At the end of the day all of these companies only care about money. Now that they finally realized accusing your own potential customers of being racist, sexist, bigots doesn't work, we can only hope the same happens for other projects instead of seeing them being run into the ground..
Yup, had to spend a lot of extra money too, even delayed the movie if I remember correctly. But instead of getting butt hurt about the negative reaction, they took it in stride and focused on the issue that people had to correct it.
Fans feedback is always right, it might be badly worded, and they might be sending the feedback in a bad way, but the core message in that feedback is always right, if they can't understand that, and can't listen to it even when they don't like the feedback, then they're bound to fail.
*“Help! Toxic fans didn’t support us!”* *”Did you even consider the fans?”* *”We thought they’d love gay stories!”* *”No, Blackrock/Vanguard thought so…”*
Thats precisely what I thought immediately after hearing the word "superfan". Still cringing over that fool saying he can "fix" Sauron if he is cute...
Wait a minute, didn't they try the "super fans" thing before, and they were later found out to be just influencers pretending to be fans? I want to say they did that for Rings of Power.
These people are insane. They believe that they are entitled to our money. If you create a product that I don't like or want, then I won't buy it. That's how the free market works.
Fans: "We became a fan of this story because... we like the story. It's kinda in the definition of 'fan'." Modern progressive storywriters: "ok cool well we're gonna change it to what we like" Fans: "we really don't like that, and will not support it" Storywriters: *surprised Pikachu face 😮
Well, I'm glad to be one them rather than being Noel Ignatiev follower. *Edit: you guys should look him up. That will clear up a lot of recent changes...
That really means nothing, just remember that Amazon hired "super fans" for Rings of Power, and we got that trash, they will just get fans that are into woke shit, and then say, see, the fans like it, when they just cherry picked the few fans that do like it.
I remember the “superfan” trailers that were made to promote the Rings of Power before the first season aired. I don’t expect for this to be any different.
I honestly don't know if the US educational system is to blame or there's something else in Hollywood. Most of their talents are just lacking, for lack a better word, unlike the Hollywood in the 80s or 90s.
When they did they still got crapped all over by the fandom. And then they tried again and again without going all in... and at some point became successful with it. And took that as a hint that they should do that more. And as such, the cycle repeats and it just kept getting worse.
They are going to start consulting the "Super fans". So NOT the actual fans of the franchise, the yes men of social media who never complain. They learned nothing.
Woke women. They cant stand the notion of respect. They hate you and want to destroy everything you like and hold dear. Of course they cant value respect.
I feel offended at being called "hyper conservative" for not liking The Acolyte. My whole family thought it was an ass show and we are not "hyper conservative".
Im, in the eyes of a conservative, the most leftiest progressive piece of scum that has ever stepped on the planet. And in the eyes of a leftiest, Im a hyper conservative scum that wants to remove equal marriage. ?????? Anyone using "hyper conservative" or "leftiest" as a way to catalog someone when they dont like you or your product automatically invalidates any word that would came out of their mouths for the next two decades.
"we spent most of our effort insulting all potential customers and aggressively and in an actual toxic way push our doctrine on them. then they didn't give us their money. are we wrong? no, the fans are toxic!"
it's absolute insanity that these companies would even need a "superfan focus group" to begin with. if you don't have passion and knowledge about a certain franchise, then don't make fucking movies or shows in that franchise... THAT's the problem.
I disagree, as long as you're motivated to make a good product that does right by the fans, I don't care how you do it as long as you do it. If all you know is how to make a good movie and you rely on superfans to supply all the important info you need to make a good movie that fits that IP well and the end result is a movie that the fans as a whole love, great. If you are a supernerd that literally knows everything about the IP and you also know how to make great movies and you make a movie that the fans as a whole love, great. And don't forget the much more reasonable scenario where someone has some knowledge and loves the IP and has a ton of passion, but they still don't have the insane depth and breadth of knowledge and understanding that a collective of supernerds (aka experts) have, and you'd be insane to not tap that knowledge pool to make sure that you weren't missing key details and information when putting together your work.
Agree, while this might be a step in the right direction, I also feel like that it is so pathetic that companies now need to stoop this low, when they didn't need to do this before. Sam Rami didn't need to consult Spiderman fans on what he should for his trilogy and nowadays marvel needs to talk to fans on what to do, like are you this incompetent.
@@blackstream2572 the problem is that so far we have never seen non fans make a better adaptation than fans. you also said u disgreed then proceeded to agree with ecmonify lol.
@@Moddiebun I disagreed with him on a point he made, not every single word he said. Obviously I agree with a large portion of his post. You even discussed the point I disagreed with him on, so I have no idea why you seem confused by this. Also saying we have never seen non-fans make a better adaptation than fans is a VERY broad statement to make and almost certainly wrong. Would I put money on a random non-fan work being better than a random fan work? Hell no. Would I put money on all non-fan works being worse than the worst fan work? Also hell no.
You know what's the best way to self insert and not have any fan base attack you? Make your own story. Stop buying existing ip and self insert into it, killing the story/character/world
The problem is that requires talent, foresight, and hard work in order to sell a new IP to the world. It's much easier for them to just buy up pre-existing IP and shovel out their turds.
They already tried that, it was called Dustborn and Concord. They know they're preachy self absorbed bullshit won't sell, so the next best thing they can do is push themselves into already popular franchises
My sister once said these DEI people were probably bullied in highschool or something since they didn’t take that to become a better person so they got these powerful paying jobs and ended up becoming the bullies themselves 🤷♂️
For more than 20 years people said “let them be and leave them alone, they will grow out of it”, they became too used to people defending them from consequences. Now that they are adults is just weird to see them acting the same.
I think it honestly is a cult. It's completely unnatural, and only came into existence in the last 10 years. All the pampered, privileged people latched onto it as a way to be "virtuous" without actually having to be virtuous. It basically just took the place of religion for people who have everything, yet don't want to actually give anything away or help anyone, so it offers them a way to displace their guilt by creating false enemies to focus their negativity towards.
as a software developer, I find entertainment industry`s current generation absolutely, insanely entitled and out of touch of everything - audience\clients and best practices of business. They are completely insane if they really thought, that they have "to break paying clients". As a dev, you sometimes face situations, where it does not matter "how long you worked", "how much you love latest shiny thing", "how bored you are without creative freedom" - what matters, is whether you can meet client`s expectation and make them happy. Period. Guilt-tripping clients who pay you money is something from the land of ideological strategies. It has nothing to do with business.
@@illusion466 Seems like they're a software developer rather than a game dev if that's what you mean, I expect they work on project designing bespoke software for companies. Probably like ticketing systems and the like.
Meanwhile, the Chinese series 'The Untamed' had homoerotic subtexts, but it has accumulated 10 billion views (as of December 2021). It was also so popular because of its faithfulness to the original novel. So what's going on now is definitely a matter of ignoring source material and bad writing, along with trying to shove THE MESSAGE down our throats.
@@MahouShoujoTomato yup, basically just find a niche, don't push it to people faces(the majority)who are if not all straight/hetero, although i think the reason why untamed is that many,is because of the population of china,so more population,more fujoshis or yaoi enthusiast.
The issue is that they're doing it with pre-established IP's. The only reason I can think of to change the characters, lore or plot of an established franchise, is because they don't believe that a newly created property will bring people in, so they need to use already beloved things as a trojan horse. And that's nefarious part, they aren't simply putting their ideas out there to see what people think of them they are trying to disguise them so they can force it on people.
good point. I might add, that usually the business ppl try to take as little risk as possible. something new can always fail, but if you take something already loved there will always be SOME audience for it, and therefore it will be at least midly successful. and thats what they need the trojan horse for. in short: a lack of balls to try something new.
Even if you look at Star Wars, the so-called "toxic fans" had (for overwhelming majority) nothing bad to say about Rogue One and even plenty of good to say, despite being a new movie made under Disney, and the first one with no Jedi / lightsaber featured (except the very short Darth Vader fan service to tie it up nicely with the trilogy). So it's not about angry fans rejecting anything different from their favorite movies, even for one of the most infamous fandom lol. Rogue One was so liked that they even made a prequel for its side-character Cassian Andor. For "side characters", Only Bobba Fett and Ahsoka got that treatment and they are both franchise icons for their own reasons, Cassian is not an iconic character but he is a good vessel for the "Rogue One" dark and mature approach that was praised. The series Andor had an average reception if I remember correctly, many people found it too slow and kinda boring in some parts ? (Personally I really liked it) But it received no real backlash, contrary to almost every other Star Wars series they released (with the exception of Mandalorian) that had at least a major issue going on if not multiple.
That just makes you like 99% of customers. Most people want to be respected by a company selling things to them. Prove you think they're jerks and you'll also find them abandoning you in droves. This most certainly describes me, which is why I agree with you 1000%.
No such thing as toxic fandom, only fandom. They are the one's who made a property popular. No ip has any value other than what the fans give it. No fans, no money, no need to make the show.
In their hubris they thought they could do better than the the original creators, and when the fans say they don't like what they've they smear and attack them. Which begs the question who is really toxic in this situation?
I'd say there are parts of an toxic fandom, but unlike these people try to push it's not about the content of the critique what makes that part of the fandom toxic, but rather the way they push it. Plus ironically, looking at acolyte and such, their own fans are super toxic (toxic positivity, attacking people, trying to ruin youtubers and stuff who have the audacity to speak out against or criticsize their show etc).
@kaijukingdom2686 That's not actually the case, nor do most people actually think of it that way. None of these fandoms are actually toxic, not mha, not lotr and sure as hell not star wars. I've been around them and i know that most would attest these communities to being genuinely good places. Plus those who falsely allege entire fandoms to be toxic based off of a minority are always a minority by virtue of newton's third law, since every action has an equal and opposite reaction. And the mha fandom isn't toxic either, that's just disingenuous.
@@sgtaveryjohnson3803 Yeah I’m gonna have to disagree…when the Mha fandom starts sending out death threats because their favorite ship didn’t come through I’m gonna say it’s toxic
Exactly, they needed a separate group to tell them if they're doing something wrong or not. I mean I knew they didn't care about their consumers but holy shit this is on another level.
Considering they continually insult us the whole while asking for help, I have my doubts. Once they learn it's passionate fanbases that like the original products because they were good, maybe.
The article frames it like writers are just following their creative vision and unknowingly upsetting fanatic fans.. no, their injecting contemporary politics and personal idealogy into historic, beloved stories. Were not having it anymore
“Toxic fandom” it’s so obnoxious. Fandom are a small percent of any group. It has nothing to do with fandom and everything to do with the product being just bad and *almost nobody* wants it.
Hyperconservative ideas: - Males and females have biological differences. -Kids shouldn't be allowed to get irreversible medical procedures just because they feel like it. -People who break laws should be punished. -Uncounted numbers of random strangers shouldn't be allowed into the country without vetting. -Sexually explicit content shouldn't be in school libraries. -
@@T0FFII yeah of course , there's litteraly groups ( DEI , sweet baby inc ) that force progressive ideology down our throat , you've seen concord , ac shadows , star wars outlaws , etc ... but there's no wokeism of any kind in this industry , trying to hide the obvious there , pal 🤡🤡🤡
Amazon did a "Superfan" focus group for Rings of Power. It turned out to be influencers that had never even seen or read anything from Lord Of The Rings. They're not going to be listening to fans. They're going to be calling fans toxic even harder. Its not about getting better, its about making us feel like we're alone and wrong.
That was the first round. That actually included the Spanish youtuber since the event was held in Spain (the actual superfan, not influencer like everyone who appeared in the promos). That dude hinted it was going to be bad 😂. The English-speaking youtubers who were invited in the 2nd round didn't say a word. Thus, even if they invited "superfans", you'll get people who won't speak up or softball it because they're not dicks to creatives. The people that the fans are truly mad at are the execs who don't know anything about these franchises yet push for certain specific creative choices on these shows that don't match at all.
This is Variety. This article isn't for you and me. This article is the Hollywood studios explaining to everyone under them the new direction and the "official" reason. It's essentially a corporate memo.
@@thecursed01 According to who? The budget was around $85 - $90mil. The movie made $320 mil worldwide. Your opinion contradicts the facts. Not to mention, it's just become a trilogy...? Like bruh. If this is bait, well done. If it's not, wake up.
@0:17 ...or you could not start by inserting messages and save time to theatres. Losing money because of 'mistakes' is one thing. Adding time to undo what shouldn't be there is another. Focus on the problem... not the symptom.
Disney paid $4B each for Marvel and Lucasfilm, Amazon paid $465M for Rings of Power rights, yet those people still try to pretend like there was no actual reason these things cost that much. The ONLY reason for those valuations was the existing fanbase and interest the IPs had generated over decades. Star Wars was worth $4B because of 1977-2012 fans. And then they promptly shat on them, Lucasfilm employees mocked them and blamed them for why their post-2012 slop wasn't liked.
It'd be less toxic if they stopped calling fans that actually care about the IP "racists", "sexists", "bigots" and all the words they can think of, just because they don't like what they do.
I fail to understand those people... - You are a company making a product (movie, game... or towels) and up to this point the customers/audience was happy with your products. - Now you suddenly start changing the product to fit your narrative... your agenda. - Understandably, the audience does not like your crap. - You start blaming the audience of being bigots, sexists, racists, misogynists or something-o-phob for not liking your crap. - You never even consider that going against your core audience is an extremely bad move. ...That's just plain moronic!
"Toxic fandoms." Try: "Toxic production." Fans WANT something and will pay for it - the money is already on the table if you can figure out what fans want. Only a toxic fool would flip the table and accuse the fans of being very bad naughty people for - what? Wanting consistency, respect for the material and sincere creative additions? How dare we? Heavens forefend. The fact of the matter is they've been lazy and the wrong people have been consulted in the creative processes. For that we don't have sincere and respectful additions to existing franchises with existing customers/fanbases that would've been happy to fork out for more of what made them fans in the first place. Rogue One. What a gem of a movie. It isn't like they haven't occasionally pulled something good out - the talent is there. Asking fans would be a good idea - I wonder which bright-flower-among-the-weeds came up with it? Literally anyone with any sense could've arrived at this strategy.
Not really. They always fail upwards and the industries themselves now have enshrined standards they have to meet, like movies requiring X ammount of diversity in order to be nominated for an Oscar. When everyone in a field swears they can see the emperor's clothes, no one's gonna get punished for being vocal about it. At least beyond a slap on the wrist and being forbidden to use social media.
There is no way this is going to work. They have no idea who to go to. They'll just probably pick some random people from reddit and still make the same mistakes. Another reason is that you don't have to listen to fans about what they didn't like - the movies where shit when it comes to everything: plot, characters, world building, choreography. If you see the product that bad and don't know what's wrong with it, you won't be able to make something good no matter what you do.
They'll make the same mistakes in the other direction. Pandering to nostalgia and fanservice references that only the obsessive can appreciate while failing to produce a good product. Successful use of feedback is accomplished by listening to consumers, players, or end users telling you what they didn't like about something, but deliberately ignoring their suggestions on how to fix it. Then change something and try again. Many successful and beloved works have used feedback this way.
@@McDLT999999999999999 They won't .... highly doubtful.... they'll just find people that agree with them for the most part or hire actors to play fan parts ... essentially the fact that they keep calling fans "toxic" is a sign that they're in no way going to take criticism of any kind in an honest way. And as OP says, a good story is a good story. If a writer needs an audience to micromanage a script, you're done. You're not a writer at that point but just a note taker at best. And this stuff doesn't work. Might as well just have AI write for you -- it would be essentially the same and AI might actually have a bigger and more unbiased pool to draw from.
Surprised it took them so long to realize selling a product to an audience that wants it is millions of times easier than trying to lambast an audience into accepting something they never asked for, or, worse yet, spits in the face of what they actually enjoyed.
You can look to TLJ as a microcosm of how this will go. Broadly speaking, Star Wars fans did not like or approve of TLJ. TLJ had its fans and defenders.... those people were fans of what was being done to Star Wars. Huge difference. The 'super fan' focus groups these companies will assemble ... will probably be super fans of the company or the company's agenda. The only thing this will lead to is more disaster and more gaslighting. They're just looking for some contrived validation on what they're already planning to cram down people's throats.... 'Well... superfan focus groups love it.... so obviously if you don't, you're not a fan but a 'hyper-conservative' [ist, phobe, xyz misanthrope].
I honestly don’t even understand what the story is. Haven’t they literally just renamed what they call test audiences so they can say hey people like you say it’s okay don’t hate us
@@elcactusdelamuerte506 the companies won’t change a thing. “Super fans” is a term they use to bring in fake fan influencers to try and win over the fan base. A lot of them are just yes men and clap at anything.
It's wild that these people think we were always toxic No, beth, we were never toxic with the ORIGINAL works only when you started adding and changing 80% of the original work that we loved then started being "toxic"😂
Its fucking wild that people who just wanted to see a movie adaptation of their favorite story are now "Toxic Fan" because they don't want Hollywood trying to "re make it better". Like GRRM said, 99% of the time these people try to improve good stories and remake them their own way , they just do it worse. Yet the fan are toxic lol.
this is why basic education matters. customers want apples, they make pears and try force it on customers who want apples. and when it doesn't work they blame customers who has been asking for apples from the beginning.
Stop calling customers "fans". Products don't die because some people hate it, but because to few like it. Depicting it as if consumers could actively "take money away" from producers is gaslighting and propaganda.
Amazon's Rings of Power is a clear example, I still remember that promotional video they made with "fans" before the first season released... That was so bad...
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
"we are being attacked by toxic fans"
"How are they attacking you?"
"By not giving us their money"
Truly ridiculous. 😂
This pretty much sums up this whole thing. Yes there are those that will attack the devs/creators on Twitter, but they're usually a minority. Most people just don't buy/watch, since you know, it wasn't made for us. Then when the show/game fails, they blame the "toxic fan base", the same people they rejected.
Imagine if they implemented their dream communist state and could take your money forcefully.
I love hearing this from devs and directors. "Blah blah vocal minority," so what is the majority doing? The vocal ones are telling you what you did wrong and the majority is staying silent and not watching or buying your crap😂
true story
They came crawling to the "Toxic Fandom" for help
I hope so but every media in every timeframe ever was mainly used to deliver a message to not say propaganda. Money is nice but they made billions over the years are well funded and connected - they can do that for a century before they go broke.
“You could not live with your own failure, and where did that bring you? BACK TO ME”
"victim card"
"toxic fandom"
And yeah, Acolyte cost disknee $230M already. Wokey can't stop being salty
man. Being faithful are hard for these people. Idea to make movie from lore > be faithful to lore then make movie > profit. Fucking easy as counting 1,2,3.
-_-
The problem is they can't even talk about fans without calling them "Toxic" Maybe start there?
This is from the media reporter losing his sway on films, though. They said to him they didn't really want to talk about it. He wouldn't print their words which very likely were 'we want to hear from our superb fans, not cretinous vultures that ruined our relationship with our audience like you and other journalists'
The reason i say that as he paints that the studios hate us so hard without a shred of evidence.
They talk like fanship is an obligation
"Toxic fans"=people that won't just mindlessly consume the crap they want to feed you. Got it.
Well you see it's always "bigotry" and never "we made a bad product".
It's like asking them to "stop gaslightning people" which i find veri difficoltà from their pov
Blaming someone for reacting poorly to something is narcissism 101.
Ehh, depends. Some people do overreact, more than ever before now that were a few generations deep into adult-babies.
What’s happening here isn’t blaming fans for reacting poorly, it’s blaming consumers for not blindly handing over money for things they don’t want or like.
Not blindly buying things you’re shamed into isn’t reacting poorly, it’s reacting normally.
@@JohnSmith-op7ls I think what was implied is they're trying to control how people can view something. "If you think it's bad your an ist or a phobe and you don't want to be that, so support us"
@@JPMonster13 Sure but that’s not really narcissism, that’s greed and authoritarianism.
The few left at these companies who care about profits somehow think gaslighting people will get them to hand over their money and the rest are miserable people who think pretending to be activists, in as lazy a way possible, will get them attention, praise, and fame.
It’s like they’re trying to make up for the fact that nobody loves them.
you oversimplified it and it turned out weird but we all get ur point.
I'm guessing what you were trying to say was "blaming someone for not reacting the way you want them to"...
The Sonic example is absolutely perfect. It was a big meme of a movie and now a solid franchise. Because fans spoke up, they listened and put quality and effort into it and now people are happy.
They could've just kept the original design. But because they didn't, the movie did amazingly well and sparked 2 more sequels.
Sonic Franchise is amongst of the few movies that truly listen to his fans. Thanks to the director Jeff Fowler.
As Sonic and Sega Fan. They Live and Learn
🔵🌀 ⚫️🔴💎⚡️
@@Slenderslayer351Live and learn !
🔵🌀 ⚫️🔴💎⚡️
They fired the entire original team and got a new one to do it right, which is literally the only solution for any of these studios going forward
I don’t think “super fan focus groups” are the solution though. Have you seen “super fans” for some of these franchises? For example, I’ve seen Sonic super fans put out some pretty cringeworthy self-insert fanfics… I think Game Grumps read a few on their channel and it was roooooough. 😂
Watch it backfire horribly because the "superfans" they choose aren't really fans of said franchise.
If they are the same fans as "Ryan Johnson the fan of Star Wars" then I can see it.
Superfans = Redditors/Twitter 'fans'
Yeah I can say with certainty they would likely hire “their idea” of hyperfans then gaslight everyone into thinking that’s the fan bases consensus.
Just like Amazon did with Rings of Power xD
Just like how Microsoft put 343 in charge of Halo, a bunch of "Halo fans" that don't like classic Halo and try to make a game they actually enjoy. Which isn't Halo.
"Toxic fans!" "Bigotry!" I fucking can't with these people
they got that right. but they should look at those toxic ppl who make the franchises about their doctrine and don't care about the real stories/franchise. and the insult te vast majority of potential customers and then cry that most potential customers don't give them money for insulting them.
I need to start working out more, my chest isn't big enough to carry all the "badges"
I think that at this point the normal people (that is still the majority in western society) is the most abused, insulted and unprivileged group.
😂😂😂@@georgepatton6195
"Bad products!" "Wasted money!"
Oh right, NOW it cuts both ways...
100%. It's honestly not complicated:
As a producer of a product, you have to make a product that people actually want, NOT what you want them to want. Businesses are not entitled to a customer's money.
Always pay attention to the language. The fact that they're complaining about "hyper-Conservative bigotry and vitriol, prejudice hatred and hateful language" tells you what they still think of the actual fans and the criticism they receive.
Also, worrying about "social media backlash" is what got them in this situation in the first place. They listened to random blowhards on Twitter who couldn't care less about the IP that they were complaining about. They just wanted to exercise power over and corrode things others enjoyed.
They're not gonna change. They just want to find a way to play 3 card Monty with the fanbase, so that they can give YOU what THEY want while making it appear as if you're getting what YOU wanted all along.
Spot on
@TopJazzCat So True.
Corporations don't care about anything but money. The activists they hired due to the perverse incentive of DEI are the problem, once that incentive is outweighed by the incentive to actually make money, things will shift back.
Who knows, maybe in 20 years, we'll be annoyed by these corporations cramming Bible verses down our throat instead of lesbian space witches
Exactly
They will never change, only Naive would give them a chance.
Fans : "I need orange juice"
Company : "Here is turd water"
Fans : "But I need orange juice, I didn't ask for turd water"
Company: "Omg look at these toxic fans on the rise"
I asked to “glass the juice” 😏
yes. and the toxic ppl were the fascists who aggressively told us what we have to love and support and made 90% of the games/movies about their political doctrine. we aren't the "toxic ones wanting control" we are the ones being sick of exactly that
Then they beg the customers to pay for and drink turd water. Disgusting is too mild of a wors for them.
Here is Orange Juice brand turd water, you're a fan of orange juice so you have to like this.
Company; "you're not professional turd water creator to speak about the topic, bigot!"
Just create your own world and stories to push your views, don’t corrupt what is already beloved.
Cos nobody will watch those.
They tried making their own, Dustborn and Concord, and literally no one showed up to those.
They would do that if they could, all this people can't create shit, that's why they trash already existing stories, because they don't know how to make new ones.
Lacks creativity yet they will be the first to spout that people with right/conservative leaning people are incapable of creativity.
In short, it your message or your material can't withstand a little criticism what was it worth in the first place.
Evil can't create, only corrupt
0:44 the CUCKolyte
Replace C with F
Being normal = hyper conservative 😂
I mean when your values are so far left you align with Mao, maybe everything else does seem "far right"
"Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler"
-The Left
The lines have shifted that far in their minds for sure. If you're not with them entirely, you're alt right trash and there is nothing else to them.
Well, according to Ubi$lop not wanting games to be political is an "extraordinary expectation".
Being a fan = total biggotry.
the mental gymnastics required to wrap the blame on a fandom for not liking a product is beyond me.
it is a control thing imo, like using fear or shame as a control to force the people to follow a certain way or think a certain way. if it doesn't work, they have no other choice, to capitulate.
@@budoshi-f2l It gets them off too. They love it. It's how they feel important and powerful.
This is a djoozish problem, and it has been for thousands of years
@@budoshi-f2l fr. they're literally sorting certain labels and promoting them as either good and bad. and most of the gullible people on the internet fall right in.
Mental Gimnastics? No bro we are at the olimpics already.
"Toxic Fandoms" - You mean people that actually know, love, and care about what happens with the source material
Like, even GRR Martin himself is outraged how they completely disregard key points and change the story in House of the Dragon.
I wonder if this will affect Harry Potter show or maybe its already too late 🤔
And now that fat old man was so traumatized by the ordeal, that he can't even finish the damn books.
But seriously, the only reason why the "toxic fandom" holds so much power, is because the fans tend to hold the majority opinion.
@@JesiAsh i think jk rowling is involved in it so maybe it wont go to far
"The more she drank the more she shat, and the more she shat the more she drank" - George R.R. Martin.
@@vitzooo There was already news about they having "open casting", that basically means they will race swap almost all characters.
Yeah, here's the thing: if the only film or TV you're willing to produce relies on already established IP, you're going to be subjected to this level of scrutiny. Don't want to deal with it? Go write something original. Problem solved.
Woke cannot think for themselves just exist to make more sheep like themselves
The worst part is we are not even actively trying to take anyone down, we just don’t pay for stuff we don’t want… XD
From their perspective, it's the same thing. They're so deep into their own Mary Sue Main Character Syndrome that they view any sort of disagreement, minor criticism or anything outside of worshiping everything they do as "toxic fandom".
That's toxic bigotry! You need to support these terrible products because of their messaging, and if you don't you're a bad person!
I wonder why that marketing tactic hasn't worked so far?
you mean best, right
How dare you not give multi billion company your money! Oh wait...
These goddamned companies need entire dedicated teams to advice common sense, it's so dumb
"Toxic fandom" is apparently the definition for people that get mad when a franchise gets hijacked by shills trying to send a political message, whilst destroy every idea original pushed
what was the idea behind the shitty sonic then
@@leredditcommander8208 Sonics bad design wasnt a political message
They're so disingenuous, they discredit themselves daily. 😢
That's exactly what it is. The only people I see overusing the word "toxic" are partisan shills in the DEI crowd
@@leredditcommander8208 There wasn't any idea behind it. The original version was garbage, but they thankfully actually listened to the fans and changed it into something appealing, and wound up successful because of it.
Now if only other series could do the same and actually listen to the main crowds instead of the screaming few.
Let's be honest tho it's kinda mental.
They're literally painting people as toxic because people don't wanna consume whatever they want like..
Imagine you're a car seller, your customers are happy. Suddenly one day, you start selling bikes for the same price.. Not only that, you start destroying your old customers car. Your customers tryna explain to you that man, I need a car so, naturally, you call him toxic and entitled.
When he goes to the next guy to buy the car, you have a complete meltdown that they ain't getting your bikes instead..
This is LITERALLY what's happening
Exactly this is so crazy. They call "fan retaliation" as if it was some evil coordinated premeditated attack, when poeple just dont like the movie and voice their opinion. Its freaking crazy land.
Well said, great analogy.
Also the bike salesman is in cahoots with "pro" journalists and they send emails to each other about how much they hate car fans and how great bikes are for everything (including interstellar travel).
This analogy doesn't make sense. The old car is still exactly the same, but they made a new bike with the same name as the old car.
It does make sense.
They borrow parts from your car to make the bike. Now your car is a shell of its former self and there's a bunch of bikes nobody wants to ride.
@@trax72 It does not for things like Lord of the Rings, it does for things like remasters of games and rereleases
"don't like? don't buy"
product dies
*shocked pikachu face*
Modern audience: 99%, toxic fandom: 1%. Reality: flip the stats…
You have to love their logic:
the majority of fans want the material to stay true to the source material = toxic fandom/gate keeping.
A vocal minority demands there be changes to the material to fit their world views = true fans/They see nothing wrong here.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
I love how they are convinced that the "1% toxic minority" somehow cancels out the alledged 99% of people that loved acolyte. Making no profit on the woke and badly writen shows is surely bc of the "small minority" not watching it lmao
There's no such thing as a toxic fandom
Anyone who says otherwise is misguided or projected
@@sgtaveryjohnson3803 I dunno, the Stephen Universe fandom bullying somebody into attempted Suicune over a piece of fan art suggests otherwise.
They are not giving up. They are just looking to find a way to market their products in a less toxic way.
Ur correct
Its not ober
They will decieve us now
And they can, just like with dustborn or concord. Problem is that they want to destroy what "wrong" people like
Only to bring it back full force.
Likely, they just want to take a step back from shoving crap and make a bit of money to convince the dumb investors. Then they will crank it up to 11after getting some funds back.
@@Dawid0912 I don't think the companies themselves want that. But the people making the products sure do. I mean it's not hidden, they say it outwardly on social media ALL THE TIME.
Sadly for them companies need profits and seems to me the public tide has turned against the type of shit. The world is getting more intense and people want proper fiction. Not political messaging mascarading as fiction.
As always. Money talks.
> it's afraid
< cheers
-- Starship Troopers
Oh I get it
You know, some of the higher ups in these companies do look like fat ugly bugs.
Good one!
@@Ezdine_G8261I don't
"People are just out for blood"
I am, yeah. How many times am I expected to be called all sorts of absolutely horrific things for simply existing before I begin to react and say "No more." to all this nonsense?
Sonic example was beyond perfect. Nice call.
we got tails, knuckles and soon, shadow.
You know what else came out when the first sonic did? Alita Battle Angel and the all female ghost busters reboot. Go by fan comments, go by tickets sales, go by the after market viewers. Sonic and Alita DOMINATED the sales and thumbs up that summer. Fans were saying: We Want This, Make More of THIS! And the Ghost busters was a flop. The producers response was not to say sorry, we hear you. No he ran out and insulted the fans and movie goers. It was THEIR fault that the movie didn't do good. The movie was impeccable and you are all toxic is basically the gist. One of the female comedians did a little whining about the movie reception, but understood since they got to see the dailies and the comments all along. Another said, she wasn't to thrilled about how the movie was a drag on her dating life! lol. So hollywood listened! Right?! Buzz, they ran right into another flop that nobody asked for, the all female lead Harley Quinn craptasticganza that everybody urgently ran out......and didn't watch. And again, they blamed the fans. Well, I guess technically at this point that's not true...."the Fans" were not "fan's" of this garbage.
@@mattstorey7256 nah, Alita is goat. Nice piece of arts and story.
@@mattstorey7256 And the analogy gets even more poetic
Soooo good, I went “EXXACTLY”!
The word "toxic" has become nothing more than a buzzword that has no meaning anymore. If simply not liking something and giving criticism is toxic, then call me the Chernobyl power plant.
You realise thst most people do like these fandoms right? Thise who falsely allege entire fandoms to be toxic based off of a minority of people are ALWAYS a minority and toxic themselves by virtue of their overgeneralisation.
Toxic means "we dont like it" now.
id call you an unoriginal plagiarist without a proper thought instead. I saw the same comment made by another user who, most likely, took it from another user.
@@sgtaveryjohnson3803 This is just for America, mind your bussiness and worry about your muslim invasion you silly brit.
They won't learn from this though. They didn't learn when they turned "racist" into a meme either. Or "sexist" lmao
1:52 The sonic movie is the perfect example of this being applied successfully, turning a guaranteed flop into a success.
At the end of the day all of these companies only care about money. Now that they finally realized accusing your own potential customers of being racist, sexist, bigots doesn't work, we can only hope the same happens for other projects instead of seeing them being run into the ground..
True
Now we need to do that with the Minecraft Movie. It's freaking atrocious
Yup, had to spend a lot of extra money too, even delayed the movie if I remember correctly. But instead of getting butt hurt about the negative reaction, they took it in stride and focused on the issue that people had to correct it.
It was bound to happen, but it took longer than expected. Reality always wins no matter what.
Fans feedback is always right, it might be badly worded, and they might be sending the feedback in a bad way, but the core message in that feedback is always right, if they can't understand that, and can't listen to it even when they don't like the feedback, then they're bound to fail.
*“Help! Toxic fans didn’t support us!”*
*”Did you even consider the fans?”*
*”We thought they’d love gay stories!”*
*”No, Blackrock/Vanguard thought so…”*
yeah...remember the last time they got "super fans" we got "MAH GURL GALADREEEL!!!!"
Yeah I don't trust this.
Exactly, they will choose to listen only to those who share the same opinion as them, that's what their echo chamber has conditioned them to do.
or as i like to call her
Elf Jesus
😂@@AlexandertheGreatSk
Thats precisely what I thought immediately after hearing the word "superfan". Still cringing over that fool saying he can "fix" Sauron if he is cute...
how will they prevent woke infiltration?
Wait a minute, didn't they try the "super fans" thing before, and they were later found out to be just influencers pretending to be fans? I want to say they did that for Rings of Power.
No they actually did hire a lore consultant with LOTR, then they promptly ignored them when they started doing their job they hired them for.
You are correct
@@TheNucaKola they did also get "super fans" to watch an early screening or something to that effect of the rings of power
That’s exactly what they did for ROP. The “super fans” they hired hadn’t even read the books.
@@DonaldBlake287 remember the “super fans” who said Anakin Skywalker blew up the Death Star?
We are not "Toxic Fans" , we are "Fans" and we get upset when those know it all ruin things we loved for years and invested so much of our times.
These are executives and marketing directors and such, they never loved something, they can't grasp the concept.
These people are insane. They believe that they are entitled to our money. If you create a product that I don't like or want, then I won't buy it. That's how the free market works.
Fans: "We became a fan of this story because... we like the story. It's kinda in the definition of 'fan'."
Modern progressive storywriters: "ok cool well we're gonna change it to what we like"
Fans: "we really don't like that, and will not support it"
Storywriters: *surprised Pikachu face 😮
I like how they said they need to listen to fans now but at the same time they called them, sexists, bigots, nazis and anti woke lol
Well, I'm glad to be one them rather than being Noel Ignatiev follower.
*Edit: you guys should look him up. That will clear up a lot of recent changes...
That really means nothing, just remember that Amazon hired "super fans" for Rings of Power, and we got that trash, they will just get fans that are into woke shit, and then say, see, the fans like it, when they just cherry picked the few fans that do like it.
They inadvertently admit the "toxic" fans are worth listening.
Because that's the level of contempt these companies have for their consumers; they absolutely despise all of us
You know, we have seen game studio and movie blame their customer for their low sales. But we havent seen them with automobile, for example
I remember the “superfan” trailers that were made to promote the Rings of Power before the first season aired. I don’t expect for this to be any different.
Exactly, this is just a PR move, so people will think something changed.
I disagree. This time they mean.'super' like 'ultra maga' and its going to be critical drinker et al.
Yeah, I remember. One of them was saying "I can fix Sauron" or something.
Strange how studios really never had to worry about these things in previous decades when they weren’t shitting all over established lore/cannon
I honestly don't know if the US educational system is to blame or there's something else in Hollywood. Most of their talents are just lacking, for lack a better word, unlike the Hollywood in the 80s or 90s.
When they did they still got crapped all over by the fandom. And then they tried again and again without going all in... and at some point became successful with it. And took that as a hint that they should do that more. And as such, the cycle repeats and it just kept getting worse.
Have you seen LOTR?
back then studio still have something called respect, now all they have is arrogance
The boomer story writers retired, and current story writers simply aren't as good. (I'm not a boomer)
It's not about the canon. It's about respecting the people who made the franchise in the first place.
They are going to start consulting the "Super fans". So NOT the actual fans of the franchise, the yes men of social media who never complain.
They learned nothing.
Arrogance never does
It's a demonic corporate skinsuit. Stop thinking they're going to make a good Star Wars movie. That's dumb.
Super fans > Experts XD
Remember the super fan amazon found for ring of power
@@cronx1 It's never their fault, so it must be ours for wanting them to respect the IP.
0:23 wow, the investors must be running out of money
Don't worry they'll stage some sort of event like the summer of love again to scare people into investing in them again.
@@NameIsDocnot this time. Brandon tanked the economy hard at every turn, and now his party’s biggest supporters don’t have the money flow like before.
@@manoftruth0935 So you're saying it's time for governmental bailouts? If they can't use their money, they'll just use yours.
Yes. Now they no longer have the patience to humor the crazy activists who work for them.
@@manoftruth0935 come to find out, he designated all decisions to Kamala Harris behind the scenes so it technically is her fault too.
“Toxic fandom” = People that only wants the original material and it’s legacy be treated with respect.
Woke women. They cant stand the notion of respect. They hate you and want to destroy everything you like and hold dear. Of course they cant value respect.
If anything I think the toxic positivity for the show is even more harmful
These normal people can take things too far though
Its not "toxic fans", its your customers base, the people that will pay for your product.
Soooo losing Billions on shows for “modern audiences” really hurt huh? Damn that’s crazy 😂
They just realize the modern audiences are the minority who dont event watch their crap because they are too busy being social activists
( Defining all normal people as toxic )
OMG, Toxic fandoms have grown so powerful！
Anyone who calls entire fandoms toxic are to be ignored
"Nah, you're just out of touch lmao."
@@Rahnonymous "lmao why do you even care?" Is always my favourite. Whenever someone uses "lmao" like that, you know they're fucking seething lol.
I feel offended at being called "hyper conservative" for not liking The Acolyte. My whole family thought it was an ass show and we are not "hyper conservative".
Being normal to them is evil.
Anyone that's not explicitly pro progressivism is "hyper conservative" to these people.
Im, in the eyes of a conservative, the most leftiest progressive piece of scum that has ever stepped on the planet. And in the eyes of a leftiest, Im a hyper conservative scum that wants to remove equal marriage. ??????
Anyone using "hyper conservative" or "leftiest" as a way to catalog someone when they dont like you or your product automatically invalidates any word that would came out of their mouths for the next two decades.
I'm sorry man, but you watching Asmon and having critical thinking is the moment you get label as hyper conservative, it's a perk that comes with it.
You're hyper conservative. Stfu dude. Listen to the media. Accept the media. Love the acolyte, or else, you're a hyper conservative.
💔 It's about time they started listening to fans. 🎮
Toxic Fandom is just another term for Pissed-Off Customer Base.
You know, the folks that actually give you their money for your damn products.
"we spent most of our effort insulting all potential customers and aggressively and in an actual toxic way push our doctrine on them. then they didn't give us their money. are we wrong? no, the fans are toxic!"
👍
it's absolute insanity that these companies would even need a "superfan focus group" to begin with. if you don't have passion and knowledge about a certain franchise, then don't make fucking movies or shows in that franchise... THAT's the problem.
I disagree, as long as you're motivated to make a good product that does right by the fans, I don't care how you do it as long as you do it. If all you know is how to make a good movie and you rely on superfans to supply all the important info you need to make a good movie that fits that IP well and the end result is a movie that the fans as a whole love, great. If you are a supernerd that literally knows everything about the IP and you also know how to make great movies and you make a movie that the fans as a whole love, great.
And don't forget the much more reasonable scenario where someone has some knowledge and loves the IP and has a ton of passion, but they still don't have the insane depth and breadth of knowledge and understanding that a collective of supernerds (aka experts) have, and you'd be insane to not tap that knowledge pool to make sure that you weren't missing key details and information when putting together your work.
Agree, while this might be a step in the right direction, I also feel like that it is so pathetic that companies now need to stoop this low, when they didn't need to do this before. Sam Rami didn't need to consult Spiderman fans on what he should for his trilogy and nowadays marvel needs to talk to fans on what to do, like are you this incompetent.
@@blackstream2572 the problem is that so far we have never seen non fans make a better adaptation than fans. you also said u disgreed then proceeded to agree with ecmonify lol.
@@Moddiebun I disagreed with him on a point he made, not every single word he said. Obviously I agree with a large portion of his post. You even discussed the point I disagreed with him on, so I have no idea why you seem confused by this.
Also saying we have never seen non-fans make a better adaptation than fans is a VERY broad statement to make and almost certainly wrong. Would I put money on a random non-fan work being better than a random fan work? Hell no. Would I put money on all non-fan works being worse than the worst fan work? Also hell no.
...and every one of those focus groups will be located in-and-around Los Angeles in the TMZ where objective thought is encouraged and rewarded.
Cue the Starship Troopers meme: "IT'S AFRAID!"
> cheers
"hyper-Conservative bigotry and vitriol, prejudice hatred and hateful language" they're so afraid. i can't believe how many fell for this fake crap.
We'll keep on fighting, and we'll win
Looking forward to Starship Troopers: Extermination coming out in a few days..! 😁👍
Retaliate is definitely not the right word here, because not consuming your product is not retaliation.
You know what's the best way to self insert and not have any fan base attack you?
Make your own story. Stop buying existing ip and self insert into it, killing the story/character/world
The problem is that requires talent, foresight, and hard work in order to sell a new IP to the world. It's much easier for them to just buy up pre-existing IP and shovel out their turds.
They already tried that, it was called Dustborn and Concord.
They know they're preachy self absorbed bullshit won't sell, so the next best thing they can do is push themselves into already popular franchises
@@nerofl89 Evil cannot create, it can only corrupt what good creates.
@@shemhazaithewhisperer2061 goated reply
It is toxic supply, not toxic customers.
"You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me."
- Thanos
LOL under rated comment and very apt🤣.
"Bemoan the situation" is an odd way to accept your work exists to appeal unto others and not your own ego.
My sister once said these DEI people were probably bullied in highschool or something since they didn’t take that to become a better person so they got these powerful paying jobs and ended up becoming the bullies themselves 🤷♂️
The term is “cry-bully”
They're called Jewish people
I think they have always been bullies.
For more than 20 years people said “let them be and leave them alone, they will grow out of it”, they became too used to people defending them from consequences. Now that they are adults is just weird to see them acting the same.
I think it honestly is a cult. It's completely unnatural, and only came into existence in the last 10 years.
All the pampered, privileged people latched onto it as a way to be "virtuous" without actually having to be virtuous.
It basically just took the place of religion for people who have everything, yet don't want to actually give anything away or help anyone, so it offers them a way to displace their guilt by creating false enemies to focus their negativity towards.
as a software developer, I find entertainment industry`s current generation absolutely, insanely entitled and out of touch of everything - audience\clients and best practices of business.
They are completely insane if they really thought, that they have "to break paying clients".
As a dev, you sometimes face situations, where it does not matter "how long you worked", "how much you love latest shiny thing", "how bored you are without creative freedom" - what matters, is whether you can meet client`s expectation and make them happy. Period.
Guilt-tripping clients who pay you money is something from the land of ideological strategies. It has nothing to do with business.
Devs have done their fair share of scamming people. This isn't a very high horse to shout from.
@@illusion466 Seems like they're a software developer rather than a game dev if that's what you mean, I expect they work on project designing bespoke software for companies.
Probably like ticketing systems and the like.
"No, my code does not have bugs. You're just bigot. Ticket closed"
A fantastic take. Can't agree enough here.
'There are no people watching my queer, badly written, propaganda show here either...am I so out of touch? No...its the biggoted fans who are wrong!'
so gay people cant have tv characters to identify with
not even the gay like political messages shoved down their throats in media, but companies are not ready to face it 😂
The power of narcissism and no self reflect are strong in those type of people sadly.😂
Meanwhile, the Chinese series 'The Untamed' had homoerotic subtexts, but it has accumulated 10 billion views (as of December 2021). It was also so popular because of its faithfulness to the original novel. So what's going on now is definitely a matter of ignoring source material and bad writing, along with trying to shove THE MESSAGE down our throats.
@@MahouShoujoTomato yup, basically just find a niche, don't push it to people faces(the majority)who are if not all straight/hetero, although i think the reason why untamed is that many,is because of the population of china,so more population,more fujoshis or yaoi enthusiast.
I love hearing everyone speak up to these fiends. Enough is enough. It's inspiring to see you all fight.
The issue is that they're doing it with pre-established IP's. The only reason I can think of to change the characters, lore or plot of an established franchise, is because they don't believe that a newly created property will bring people in, so they need to use already beloved things as a trojan horse. And that's nefarious part, they aren't simply putting their ideas out there to see what people think of them they are trying to disguise them so they can force it on people.
Trying to force us sweet babies to eat our vegetables.
good point. I might add, that usually the business ppl try to take as little risk as possible. something new can always fail, but if you take something already loved there will always be SOME audience for it, and therefore it will be at least midly successful. and thats what they need the trojan horse for.
in short: a lack of balls to try something new.
Joker 2 best example of what you just described
Like people on this level of IQ could estabilish a new, good IP.
That and also because activism doesn't equal to talent, so even if they created something new it would be worst than changing existing IP's 😅
The Sonic Movie is the perfect example of "Do right by us and we'll love you."
Even if you look at Star Wars, the so-called "toxic fans" had (for overwhelming majority) nothing bad to say about Rogue One and even plenty of good to say, despite being a new movie made under Disney, and the first one with no Jedi / lightsaber featured (except the very short Darth Vader fan service to tie it up nicely with the trilogy). So it's not about angry fans rejecting anything different from their favorite movies, even for one of the most infamous fandom lol.
Rogue One was so liked that they even made a prequel for its side-character Cassian Andor. For "side characters", Only Bobba Fett and Ahsoka got that treatment and they are both franchise icons for their own reasons, Cassian is not an iconic character but he is a good vessel for the "Rogue One" dark and mature approach that was praised. The series Andor had an average reception if I remember correctly, many people found it too slow and kinda boring in some parts ? (Personally I really liked it) But it received no real backlash, contrary to almost every other Star Wars series they released (with the exception of Mandalorian) that had at least a major issue going on if not multiple.
“Super fans” will be like Harry Sisson in an “undecided voter” focus group
Or those "lore experts" for Lord of the Rings. The ones Amazon hired after firing the ones that told them no.
Will the moderator be Pakman?
The market is driven by supply and demand, NOT by ideology. You don't make a product nobody demanded and expect a return in investment.
Great point.
I will never give a red cent towards people who hate me.
That just makes you like 99% of customers. Most people want to be respected by a company selling things to them. Prove you think they're jerks and you'll also find them abandoning you in droves.
This most certainly describes me, which is why I agree with you 1000%.
No such thing as toxic fandom, only fandom. They are the one's who made a property popular. No ip has any value other than what the fans give it. No fans, no money, no need to make the show.
In their hubris they thought they could do better than the the original creators, and when the fans say they don't like what they've they smear and attack them.
Which begs the question who is really toxic in this situation?
I'd say there are parts of an toxic fandom, but unlike these people try to push it's not about the content of the critique what makes that part of the fandom toxic, but rather the way they push it. Plus ironically, looking at acolyte and such, their own fans are super toxic (toxic positivity, attacking people, trying to ruin youtubers and stuff who have the audacity to speak out against or criticsize their show etc).
Well, to be fair they do exist. My hero fandom is an example of that
@kaijukingdom2686
That's not actually the case, nor do most people actually think of it that way.
None of these fandoms are actually toxic, not mha, not lotr and sure as hell not star wars. I've been around them and i know that most would attest these communities to being genuinely good places.
Plus those who falsely allege entire fandoms to be toxic based off of a minority are always a minority by virtue of newton's third law, since every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
And the mha fandom isn't toxic either, that's just disingenuous.
@@sgtaveryjohnson3803 Yeah I’m gonna have to disagree…when the Mha fandom starts sending out death threats because their favorite ship didn’t come through I’m gonna say it’s toxic
In other words, 'how to say you're out of touch with your consumers without saying you're out of touch with your consumers'.
Exactly, they needed a separate group to tell them if they're doing something wrong or not. I mean I knew they didn't care about their consumers but holy shit this is on another level.
They are just going to consult the sweet baby inc version of comic books.
Listening to what the actual fans want. What a wild and ground breaking concept.
Which should be the first rule.
It's not the fans that are toxic. It's the people in control of the IP's who want to deconstruct them and shit all over them.
0:53 we will see if they understand that or they just telling us that they understand😐
If they don’t understand you guys know what to do 🗿
Considering they continually insult us the whole while asking for help, I have my doubts.
Once they learn it's passionate fanbases that like the original products because they were good, maybe.
I’m telling you, they don’t understand. They can’t, and never will. They like the money and the power. They don’t care about much past that.
The article frames it like writers are just following their creative vision and unknowingly upsetting fanatic fans.. no, their injecting contemporary politics and personal idealogy into historic, beloved stories. Were not having it anymore
"You Couldn't Live with Your Own Failure, Where Did that Bring You? Back to Me" - Super Fans
1:08 The irony how they're exactly the actually toxic fandom that ruined these shows in the first place
“Toxic fandom” it’s so obnoxious. Fandom are a small percent of any group. It has nothing to do with fandom and everything to do with the product being just bad and *almost nobody* wants it.
Hyperconservative ideas:
- Males and females have biological differences.
-Kids shouldn't be allowed to get irreversible medical procedures just because they feel like it.
-People who break laws should be punished.
-Uncounted numbers of random strangers shouldn't be allowed into the country without vetting.
-Sexually explicit content shouldn't be in school libraries.
-
"Toxic fandom" noun
people who actually hold a critical lens to the media they consume
The only toxic idiots out here is the Management and the DEI woke hires. all fans want is respect for source material and good quality.
Respect for the source? But but... thats bigotry. How dare.
Woke doesn't mean anything btw. You fall flat on your face there, pal.
@@T0FFIIOh please, shut your trap.
@@T0FFII yeah of course , there's litteraly groups ( DEI , sweet baby inc ) that force progressive ideology down our throat , you've seen concord , ac shadows , star wars outlaws , etc ... but there's no wokeism of any kind in this industry , trying to hide the obvious there , pal 🤡🤡🤡
They should just create their own stories if they don't like the originals. Except they seem incapable of creating anything by themselves.
Amazon did a "Superfan" focus group for Rings of Power. It turned out to be influencers that had never even seen or read anything from Lord Of The Rings.
They're not going to be listening to fans. They're going to be calling fans toxic even harder. Its not about getting better, its about making us feel like we're alone and wrong.
That was the first round. That actually included the Spanish youtuber since the event was held in Spain (the actual superfan, not influencer like everyone who appeared in the promos).
That dude hinted it was going to be bad 😂. The English-speaking youtubers who were invited in the 2nd round didn't say a word.
Thus, even if they invited "superfans", you'll get people who won't speak up or softball it because they're not dicks to creatives. The people that the fans are truly mad at are the execs who don't know anything about these franchises yet push for certain specific creative choices on these shows that don't match at all.
This is Variety. This article isn't for you and me. This article is the Hollywood studios explaining to everyone under them the new direction and the "official" reason. It's essentially a corporate memo.
And, those creators behind the Sonic movie were very much appreciated for the changes and duly rewarded. It was a win-win. 😎
were they? afaik the movie was still not a real success
@@thecursed01 if it was no success they would not make part 3 right now
@@thecursed01 Define "real success".
@@RandomCarrot2806 He did say "real" and not "release" - success.
@@thecursed01 According to who? The budget was around $85 - $90mil. The movie made $320 mil worldwide. Your opinion contradicts the facts. Not to mention, it's just become a trilogy...? Like bruh. If this is bait, well done. If it's not, wake up.
@0:17 ...or you could not start by inserting messages and save time to theatres. Losing money because of 'mistakes' is one thing. Adding time to undo what shouldn't be there is another. Focus on the problem... not the symptom.
Lmao. Baby steps !
Disney paid $4B each for Marvel and Lucasfilm, Amazon paid $465M for Rings of Power rights, yet those people still try to pretend like there was no actual reason these things cost that much. The ONLY reason for those valuations was the existing fanbase and interest the IPs had generated over decades. Star Wars was worth $4B because of 1977-2012 fans. And then they promptly shat on them, Lucasfilm employees mocked them and blamed them for why their post-2012 slop wasn't liked.
Maybe it’d be less “toxic” if they stopped making garbage using beloved IPs
It'd be less toxic if they stopped calling fans that actually care about the IP "racists", "sexists", "bigots" and all the words they can think of, just because they don't like what they do.
Imagine if it DIDN'T have a beloved IP to hold it up?
its all an agenda.
Alternate title: Creatively bankrupt companies are mad that they can't lazily rewrite preexisting stories for easy money
I mean... they did this for years, but now they want to change beloved stories, and yes, people will be mad about it. With reason.
and to think they struck for more pay and then they continue to produce garbage and the bad writing always stands out lmao
Literally: DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, JUST CONSUME PRODUCT
*AND GET EXCITED FOR NEXT PRODUCT*
I fail to understand those people...
- You are a company making a product (movie, game... or towels) and up to this point the customers/audience was happy with your products.
- Now you suddenly start changing the product to fit your narrative... your agenda.
- Understandably, the audience does not like your crap.
- You start blaming the audience of being bigots, sexists, racists, misogynists or something-o-phob for not liking your crap.
- You never even consider that going against your core audience is an extremely bad move.
...That's just plain moronic!
"Toxic fandoms."
Try: "Toxic production."
Fans WANT something and will pay for it - the money is already on the table if you can figure out what fans want. Only a toxic fool would flip the table and accuse the fans of being very bad naughty people for - what? Wanting consistency, respect for the material and sincere creative additions? How dare we? Heavens forefend.
The fact of the matter is they've been lazy and the wrong people have been consulted in the creative processes. For that we don't have sincere and respectful additions to existing franchises with existing customers/fanbases that would've been happy to fork out for more of what made them fans in the first place.
Rogue One. What a gem of a movie. It isn't like they haven't occasionally pulled something good out - the talent is there. Asking fans would be a good idea - I wonder which bright-flower-among-the-weeds came up with it? Literally anyone with any sense could've arrived at this strategy.
Saying "We hate toxic fans" when making pure garbage is a nice way to get fired from any writing and PR roles.
Not really. They always fail upwards and the industries themselves now have enshrined standards they have to meet, like movies requiring X ammount of diversity in order to be nominated for an Oscar.
When everyone in a field swears they can see the emperor's clothes, no one's gonna get punished for being vocal about it. At least beyond a slap on the wrist and being forbidden to use social media.
You wish... If that happened, this issue wouldn't have even existed in the first place.
That would be great except in the entertainment industry they don't get fired, they get MORE work.
"You either meet the audience expectations,"
*"or you die"* 💀💀
If they actually bring fandoms to correct them
Then I'm going to be happy about movies now again
There is no way this is going to work. They have no idea who to go to. They'll just probably pick some random people from reddit and still make the same mistakes. Another reason is that you don't have to listen to fans about what they didn't like - the movies where shit when it comes to everything: plot, characters, world building, choreography. If you see the product that bad and don't know what's wrong with it, you won't be able to make something good no matter what you do.
One or two might make this mistake, but I disagree. They're all aware it means Critical Drinker et al now. At minimum they think superfan = ultramaga.
We've already seen it, remember the "fans" on the promotion of Rings of Power? Yeah, it will be exactly the same.
They'll make the same mistakes in the other direction. Pandering to nostalgia and fanservice references that only the obsessive can appreciate while failing to produce a good product. Successful use of feedback is accomplished by listening to consumers, players, or end users telling you what they didn't like about something, but deliberately ignoring their suggestions on how to fix it. Then change something and try again. Many successful and beloved works have used feedback this way.
It would be hilarious if they hired Nerdrotic and Drinker as consultants.
@@McDLT999999999999999 They won't .... highly doubtful.... they'll just find people that agree with them for the most part or hire actors to play fan parts ... essentially the fact that they keep calling fans "toxic" is a sign that they're in no way going to take criticism of any kind in an honest way. And as OP says, a good story is a good story. If a writer needs an audience to micromanage a script, you're done. You're not a writer at that point but just a note taker at best. And this stuff doesn't work. Might as well just have AI write for you -- it would be essentially the same and AI might actually have a bigger and more unbiased pool to draw from.
2:26 he was absolutely spittin here.
Surprised it took them so long to realize selling a product to an audience that wants it is millions of times easier than trying to lambast an audience into accepting something they never asked for, or, worse yet, spits in the face of what they actually enjoyed.
You can look to TLJ as a microcosm of how this will go. Broadly speaking, Star Wars fans did not like or approve of TLJ. TLJ had its fans and defenders.... those people were fans of what was being done to Star Wars. Huge difference. The 'super fan' focus groups these companies will assemble ... will probably be super fans of the company or the company's agenda.
The only thing this will lead to is more disaster and more gaslighting. They're just looking for some contrived validation on what they're already planning to cram down people's throats.... 'Well... superfan focus groups love it.... so obviously if you don't, you're not a fan but a 'hyper-conservative' [ist, phobe, xyz misanthrope].
“Super fans” AKA
PAID SHILLS FOR THE MASTERS
I honestly don’t even understand what the story is. Haven’t they literally just renamed what they call test audiences so they can say hey people like you say it’s okay don’t hate us
@@elcactusdelamuerte506 the companies won’t change a thing. “Super fans” is a term they use to bring in fake fan influencers to try and win over the fan base. A lot of them are just yes men and clap at anything.
@@elcactusdelamuerte506 That's exactly what they did.
It's wild that these people think we were always toxic
No, beth, we were never toxic with the ORIGINAL works only when you started adding and changing 80% of the original work that we loved then started being "toxic"😂
Its fucking wild that people who just wanted to see a movie adaptation of their favorite story are now "Toxic Fan" because they don't want Hollywood trying to "re make it better". Like GRRM said, 99% of the time these people try to improve good stories and remake them their own way , they just do it worse. Yet the fan are toxic lol.
this is why basic education matters. customers want apples, they make pears and try force it on customers who want apples. and when it doesn't work they blame customers who has been asking for apples from the beginning.
Yeah its not education.... Its not being told NO or facing ones consequences...
1:34 best line ever!!
Stop calling customers "fans". Products don't die because some people hate it, but because to few like it. Depicting it as if consumers could actively "take money away" from producers is gaslighting and propaganda.
@romank90
You could also say its because "too many people hate it". Consumers absolutely have power in numbers.
“You couldn’t live with your own failure… where do that bring you? Back to the fans”
"You Couldn't Live with Your Own Failure, Where Did that Bring You? Back to Me"
They are mad that we co-opted triggering and turned it against them.
Who they consider super fans and who super fans really are, are two different things.
Amazon's Rings of Power is a clear example, I still remember that promotional video they made with "fans" before the first season released... That was so bad...
Yeah but they only want the ones they consider super fans. Need them paid shills.