@@palecaptainwolfkayls8499 I haven't played the DLC myself so im not entirely sure what its about, but i believe they both become podcast hosts where they talk about guns. Pretty sure its the Arms Race DLC or whatever its called
@@-Alter- Yes, this. Gearbox literally made no attempt at all on using the BL2 cast and forged some nonsense, below average, fanfic level writing for all of our beloved characters. It drives me nuts.
The craziest part of all this is they slowly forgot one of the main ideas behind borderlands is your not a hero your a treasure hunter/thrill seeker not really about saving anything XD
Yeah it doesn't take a genius to figure it out either, there aren't really any "good guys" in Borderlands, just people acting out in their own best interest. if it wasn't for Jack's insanity he would've been the best chance for Pandora, but then he had to throw people into space and massacre civilians
@@RenegadeStriker7 Not really he was kinda screwed up from the get go he just didn't go off the rails into pre-sequel, you don't remember that mission of his grandmother's house with the bloody meat bicycle? That abuse at a young age def did something to him
She had a clear shot at the twins. Both of those idiots wandered out to sanctuary 3 by themselves. If the writing wasn't so god awful, the twins could've easily fell.
The writers and devs make that situation worse. Tannis wouldn't phase shift the door open, Elle is just annoying shes does nothing to back her up to act like a bad ass.They managed to make all the characters worse. Lilith is supposed to be a leader yet no crimson raider was out there with her or even tried to help her.
Lilith: Gets rekt; does not teleport to save her life. Tyrene: Teleports for camera angles a sad state of writing; "i guess Lilith kinda forgot about the phasewalk ability and immunity to damage".
Even the cut scene between her and Ava wouldnt have helped Lilith's character arc at all. "I feel insecure about living up to Roland's role as leader" is just NOT how she should feel. She should feel GUILTY. She set off the chain reaction that led to Roland dying. New Lilith is a fucking tyrant with convenient amnesia.
Roland would've still died regardless because Jack has a funny wrist watch. Angel didn't want Lilith to be in there so Jack wouldn't use her as a replacement power generator.
Borderlands 3 made playing it even worse because your character has absolutely no place in the main story. Every cutscene plays out like they aren't there and it was in fact Lilith that completed all objectives. The end of the game is a massive kick in the teeth, and hearing "That girl is on fire" was the cherry on top of a putrid pile of shit.
I felt nothing on that ending until i heard the song and laughed my ass off on it, its like seeing a shitpost and someone dies and that 1 trumpet song plays with the bottomtext (rip (name) 1989-2024) on screen
Sorry, what? The player character has a body count of hundreds of thousands of people, and the developers think that killing Handsome Jack is too much?
@@badtime9000 doesn't make sense for any hero, Maya Jack would've captured you instead even then all she's seen of Jack she would be justified in killing him due to his treatment of sirens, Salvador is well.... himself (same with Krieg), don't think Axton or Gaige really cares about killing a defenseless Jack, Zero is the only one you can kind of justify just being bored about it not being a challenge.
Letting Lilith deal the final blow, to me, wasn't for the player to avoid "committing murder". It was to let Lilith take personal revenge for the murder of Roland whom she had begun dating. This option made the Pre-Sequel rug pull on her character all the more interesting as the player discovers that Lilith isn't the victim that she was shown to be in Borderlands 2 but the reason it all happened in the first place and why Jack specifically singled her and Roland out after the death of Angel. It had me personally wondering just how much Lilith knew about a Siren's true purpose in the universe, what plans she had with her gift and special bond with the Eridians, and how this would impact her relation with Maya who had zero understanding of her own Siren powers or purpose. But then 3 came out and destroyed everything by completing forgetting the events of the Pre-Sequel, turning Lilith into Pandora Jesus, and killing off Maya. What a waste.
It being canon that she kills Jack alway pisses me off. So all that work we did, to stop and one of the most dangerous and crazy CEOs in the universe just, didn't happen? That "We didn't want the player to feel like a murderer." shit is stupid.
If they didn’t want to glaze Lilith for things she was basically a damsel for, they could have lumped her in with the “Vault Hunters who stopped Handsome Jack” and ran with that phrasing instead, leaving whoever killed him up to interpretation _and_ giving the 6 proper validation for it.
@EdwardNewgate58 The reason Roland died, and she got used as a battery for the Vault Key, is because Lilith disobeyed Roland's orders and followed us to Angel's Compound. If Lilith stayed at/on Sanctuary, she wouldn't have been grabbed to he used as the new battery, and there'd be a good chance Roland would still be alive.
I genuinely feel like Borderlands 2 and the Pre-Sequel might've been setting up Lilith to straight up become the villain moving forward into BL3, but something happened with the writing team and they changed their mind. Like, there's a BUNCH of flags along her character arc throughout the series that could lead her down that path. She started off pretty neutral, just a treasure hunter with super powers. Her treasure hunting amounted to nothing, leaving her basically stuck on a hellish planet with nothing but a small group of friends, one of which she starts dating. She betrays someone who's mentally unstable, turning him into a villainous tyrant, who in turns causes so much pain and suffering that her boyfriend starts a military faction to fight back, while she doesn't directly contribute to the cause, despite him actually killing at least one person she had personal ties to. All the while, she's messing with her own powers, which she doesn't understand, and subjecting herself to chemicals that she also doesn't understand, all in order to boost/alter the way her powers function. Then, her boyfriend dies, murdered by the man she turned into a monster, and she inherits leadership of the military force she created, and does not have the experience or leadership skills to run effectively. Yet thanks to some of the most useful people that are helping her fight Jack, she wins and promptly executes him if the player doesn't do so. Then, she captures and interrogates Athena who helped Jack rise to power, but even after it's clear that Athena didn't like Jack and was glad he was dead and refused to help him once he went nuts, Lilith is still like "Nah, f*ck you, you helped Jack" and was about to kill Athena even though she knew damn well she might be just as responsible for Jack as Athena was. It legitimately felt like they were setting up Lilith to go nuts, getting drunk off her newfound power, responsibility, and possibly a damaged mental state thanks to the way she was screwing with her Siren powers. Even the way the bandits of Pandora became a cult in BL3 felt like it might've been something Lilith was intended to do since we already saw that there was some weird worshipping of her because of the whole "Firehawk" thing in BL2. I think those stupid twins were a last minute change because the writers decided partway into production that they didn't want Lilith going off the deep endz so now we've got a character that gets endless praise and hero worship despite doing outright terrible things.
I don't think the twins were a last minute change, rather a change in writing teams that wanted to do drastically different things with zero communication between them, since 2kAUS shut down.
@@Cashew1405 Yeah, "last minute" was kinda poorly phrased on my part. If my theory is right, it definitely wasn't too late in development, but there are bits and pieces in the plot of BL3 that feel like they would've made more sense if it was something an evil, power hungry, and possibly chemically altered Lilith might have done. Like a Siren being worshipped by a cult of bandits when she literally already had that going for her in BL2, as well as the stuff in BL2 and the Pre-Sequel that was actively painting her as someone who is unprepared for the responsibility of leadership she's had dropped in her lap, and has had lapses of judgement that have caused significant harm to everyone around her, including herself. Like, Lilith executing Jack made sense, but the same thing can't be said for the attempted execution of Athena. It really felt like everything leading up to BL3 was establishing that Lilith was morally grey at best, and was on a slippery slope. Grief, a sudden level of unprecedented military power, being worshipped as a god, and potentially having her mental state altered by her experiments with chemicals she doesn't understand that are altering her powers, which she also doesn't understand. It really feels like she was being set up to turn into the next Handsome Jack. Only for the writers to completely turn things around at some point around early to mid-production for BL3 and turn her into a heroic character, probably because the one in charge was a huge fan of Lilith and refused to let her turn down a villainous path. I dunno, it's just a theory, but it could explain why the Twins felt so hollow. It really like they weren't part of the initial plan, because IMO the initial plan would've had an already established character filling their role.
@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince absolutely love this idea. Lilith going mad and trying to claim all the vaults for her faction in the name of Roland. Having the old vault hunters as bosses throughout the game, willingly or otherwise. It would have made the games link together so much better. Maya having an apprentice (Ava) that gets kidnapped and held hostage forcing Maya to fight to save her apprentice. That would have been acceptable.
Plus it would also ring true with Jack's perspective from his BL2 death monologue about saving Pandora from the bandits being what he was trying to do. I think Game Theory did one on how his perspective wasn't as crazy as it might seem. At least enough to make you think. Lilith going power hungry would have been not only a live long enough to see yourself become the villain kind of thing but also would provide extra weight to Jack's perspective.
1/2 I 100% agree, especially when they try to give her the credit for killing handsome Jack. When we or the previous vault huters of borderlands, 2 were the ones who did most of the work. Even if they wanna run with that, he was still practically dead.
In the game, you chose to kill Jack yourself or let Lilith kill him. In the canon, the VH (your character) let Lilith kill Jack, so is logical that everyone give's her the credit for the kill.
@@stolenheart1760Someone hasn't played the pre sequel, Jack is a hero with borderline personality disorder driven off the deep end by the constant betrayal and Lilith and Moxie were merely the straw that broke the camels back, And Lilith is a hero but she quick to judge (Jack is an example) and that is her major character flaw.
@Yeheah That still doesn't change the fact that the previous Vault Hunters did most of the work. There was a good example that I had, but TH-cam keeps deleting my comment.
the amount of pure anger I felt when the credits played in BL3 is unimaginable. she steals your accomplishments in BL2 and then has the balls to steal your victory in BL3. AND THEY PLAY "GIRL ON FIRE" like she actually did anything!?!?!?!?!?!? made me wonder why I even bothered, now I haven't bought another gearbox game since and still never will.
I never bought another game after the pre-sequel. It was actually good and had a legit captivating story. I just kinda had a feeling of what they gonna do with 3, and saddly it was even worse.
I hate Lilith because they tried to act like BL3 was her story where the only things she did was exposit, flex her powers, and get beaten up by Tyreen. Handsome Jack was a better protagonist back in TPS as he was far more directly involved in both the planning and action. Jack was there facing the first boss. Risking his life sending you to Elpis. Facing the Merriff. Facing Zarpedon. Sending Loader-BOTs to help you. Meanwhile what did Lilith do after losing her powers? Stayed on Sanctuary III, shows up at the very end… to get beaten up by Tyreen again. There’s no triumph in defeating Tyreen, she dies and Lilith gets her powers back… when she didn’t help at all. “Lilith didn’t have her powers though!” How many powers does Mordecai have? Or Roland? Or Hammerlock? Or Wainwright? Wainwright is partially blind and he was fighting Troy when the latter had powers! Lilith has shown that she’s nothing without her powers because she truly is.
My Axton was great, then they made him so... Distastefully hyper sexualized and gay focused that it killed my desire to play him. You know what I liked? I liked Axton's "I don't really care I'm here for the ride and the ride is fun!" Attitude, and then that stupid fuckin shitty ass roguelite lite lite game mode made him and sal absolutely insufferable. Borderlands 3 is the worst.
That I too noticed - Lilith, you bitch, USE YOUR GUNS! Damn Maliwan is siren powers dealt by your friendly neighborhood weapons dealer :D Not sure why people hate on Ava (she's a teenager - havent met one? Havent been one?) - even she with or without powers did a lot more than Lilith :D
@@thomassmith4579Note: Distastefully hyper sexualized. As in, it was severely mishandled. Hammerlock was confirmed gay in 2, he's not insufferable in TPS or 3, and even has a serious marriage arc. They are capable of writing this well, they just made Axton a manwhore because it's easier to write him as 2 dimensional. Krieg, Maya and Gage were handled pretty well, but Flanderization hit the series hard.
I still like to jus think of him as a soldier with obscure feelings for his turret(s) but bl3 really cut all vault hunters out besides Maya and then the dlcs felt forced to have the rest of them fit somehow
It's doesn't help the fact Borderland 3 again treat it's main vault hunters like they don't matter to the story to a point your character don't even appear in cutscenes. The "silent protagonista representing you" argument can't even be use because they never shut up.
I always thought that the VHs not appearing in BL3 cutscenes was because it was a first person perspective, something the other games did to some extent. But compared to stuff like Pre-Sequel and Tiny Tina’s BnB ending, I see what you mean.
the only time you're aknowledged is by Troy, he talks directly to your vault hunter, which makes me hate he wasn't the last fight with how pissed he gets when you start closing in on him
@@monotone2256 I was sad to see him go. His final battle seemed like he was taking a shot at not being pushed around all the time and becoming more dominant in their relationship (kinda flipping the twins dynamic that had been in place for most of it leading up to that). It would have made for some great drama if he was able to live at least a little longer after that fight so we could have gotten a bit more of the emotional struggle between them after his play for power. Or at least seen a bit more care between them as even with a self centered personality Tyreen does seem to be hit by his death a little bit. Maybe some angry raging or screaming after he dies would have worked before she covers it up with her online personality. Or biting commentary or sending more hit squads after the player. I do hope though that if the destroyer shows up again it has some kind of influence from her attempt to merge with it, like the ability to plan or think its way out of its prison or become an insideous force (tying in the cult aspect) plucking the strings in the background (without becoming the sole focus we have to fight against so it isnt an easy enemy to stop). Maybe something like causing problems with other vaults opening as it works to get free with only speculation or tannis giving us an idea of what is actually causing the problems instead of what it looks like on the surface and some kind of change to the situation where we wont be able to reseal it or fight it straight on.
The exact moment I knew they ruined her was the day they put BL3 elements in 2, the Commander Lilith DLC. When going out to save Mordecai, Lilith talks to the Vault Hunter as if the player character wasn't there for the events of 2 and then even states "Without him and everyone else I wouldn't have been able to get the strength to beat Handsome Jack" Something to that effect, like what?! Gearbox was already by then wanted to make the player irrelevant which was seen as a huge issue for BL3. Seriously, what the hell happened to make them do this? As for Lilith, she has flaws and was treated accordingly by her peers and that's a good thing, its what separated her from being a mary sue like Ava but 3 just made what was in that DLC somehow 10 ten times worse for her. Lilith, like most of the legacy characters has been done dirty.
For me Lilith, the crimson raiders and Moxxi mainly too are hypocrites Lilith had a chance to kill jack before he could do significant damage but didnt she was a driving factor in his vendetta against them and she just like the rest of the vault hunters in all the borderlands games are mass murderers shes too overhyped. Moxxi on the other hand is not as bad but bad regardless she says in the pre sequel " underneath that smile and hero complex, theres something seriously wrong with you" but Moxxi herself has ran a killing game in almost all the borderlands games bl1 with the underdome, the fridge and the hyperion slaughter in bl2 as well their all just hypocrites
"We wouldn't want the player to be a murderer." Yes, because everybody knows that borderlands is one the more peaceful games that include no murders at all.
And also, Jack just tried to kill us and everybody on Pandora! What do they think the death penalty is? Those criminals are defenseless, but I don't see many people arguing that killing a child molester is murder. Then again, this is Randy we're talking about...
If they didn’t want to glaze Lilith for things she was basically a damsel for, they could have lumped her in with the “Vault Hunters who stopped Handsome Jack” and ran with that phrasing instead, leaving whoever killed him up to interpretation _and_ giving the 6 proper validation for it.
What makes it frustrating is the Fight for Sanctuary DLC was actually a good remedy of her character, addressing her ruthlessness in the cutscenes of TPS but also giving her some chance to be a better leader and be there for her soldiers. Tonally it felt just right and was what I was expecting 3 to closely follow...oh how wrong I was.
@@ORLY911 yeah for the tps part, when you think about that even people like brick said that jack somehow beginns to sound pretty sympathetic in a way that he cant describe and lilith all the time just hate flames over jacks ,,fake,, heroism. i mean he was the one who saved elpis he lead this entire rescue mission also under threat of his life and lilith made things worse and doesnt even try to remember that she could be a significant part of his crazy behavior and his ultimate downfall. i mean yeah jack was a fanatic asshole at times but he still had a good intention that was worth fighting for.
Honestly if the idea was to make Lilith become progressively unhinged with her growing power and then force her to self reflect once Tryreen steals her powers that could have been an interesting angle shame literally nothing good writing wise happened in borderlands 3 maybe with the exception of that wild west DLC but then its like how can you fuck up a western its pretty hard didn't stop Seth Mcfarlane but still
I think Krieg's was pretty good too, but it was psychonauts with guns. It's very finicky to get it to hit the right emotional impact, but the enviroments and quests are Hard to screw up given the general tone of the game.
@@Cashew1405 likely Sweet Baby Inc.'s involvement, they always stifle creativity. Definitely why she was the one given credit for kiIIing Jack, because "wahman power". Keep in mind, she was already a powerful female character, and you have two powerful female Vault Hunters... they don't get credit. It's just because of DEI hires who had no investment with the story making decisions on surface-level things like characters and locations.
Yeah, but you'd also have to be mad at Moxxi and Roland for that as well. Roland at least was clearly remorseful at the time. Moxxi had a clear intention on killing Jack and brought in Roland and Lilith in the first place.
@@EdwardNewgate58outside Roland, because of his Lack of involvement overal i Do hate moxxxie and Lilith ive been saying it since BLPS I hate them both and Everytime ive played the games with my friends and family the running gag is how much i hate them both xD
She is littaraly the protagonist of Borderlands 3. There are 4 playable characters. But Lilith is the protagonist. Pulling off not having the player be the main character is incredibly difficult. And Borderlands 3 failed miserably. But note that I said incredibly difficult not impossible. Yuna is the main character of Final Fantasy X. But she is not the perspective the player views the game from. Yet the story is legitimately improved by not being the main character in that story. You still matter. And your presence helps Yuna tern her tragic story into a bitter sweet one. But that is not how Borderlands 3 does things. In Borderlands 3 Lilith makes every single meaningful decision throughout the story. And you may as well be a RTS unit she is ordering around from on high. Then she gets to save the day at the end while you are completely helpless. Its bad. REALLY BAD!
Just to throw another good example of "player character is not the protagonist" out there: Fire Emblem Awakening. Chrom is the focus character and the driving force behind everything. The player character obviously helps, but ultimately Chrom decides what to do and leads the way. The difference is Chrom actually joins in and fights alongside you, rather than sitting back until everything's swell and then walking over all "I sure did save the day" like Hercule Satan.
This. Misha, Whilem, Claptrap, Timothy and Aurelia were canonically there. All of the pre sequel vh were absoluty OP, they should have bodied her the moment she entered the vault.
Mission 1: go to the moon Mission 2: TALK TO IT FOR NO REASON AT ALL ( it is a piece of rock floating in space it won't talk with you ) Mission 3: kill a god
What’s funny is that I’ve always disliked Lilith since 2. Everything she’s done is the later games only justified me to hate her. She causes most of the problems we’ve faced in the series and yet the way practically everyone loves her comes off as Mary Sue-ish to me.
Lilith was cool until GearBox decided to make her dumb with her choices I'm still mad about my baby girl Maya died in BL3 I'm sure she could have taken Lilith's place if she practiced more on her powers
Borderlands as a story is overall FUCKED. There is no plausible way they can salvage this. Especially with the new writers that are just destroying this franchise with every new entry. Edit: The Pre-Sequel was setting up Lilith to basically be the next Jack due to her addiction to Eridium and her anger over Roland’s death. BL3 drops that plotline because they can’t have Lilith be evil, she MUST be a hero. Of course, instead of having here do things that show her being heroic, they can only TELL you she is a hero by taking the credit for things she did not even do. Pathetic writing.
Lilith got Roland killed, faced zero repercussions for her actions, lived, proceeded to lose the vault key, spend the entire 3rd game doing nothing but be respected as a "wise leader" for sitting around and doing nothing, got Maya killed after letting Ava sneak out of her sight and not saying anything, and is treated as this fucking messiah that we should all respect because "o-m-g slayy she is like, such a girlboss yass queeen 💅" And considering the annoying twat that is Ava, Tannis becoming a Siren- why is Gearbox so obsessed with giving free handouts and magical mcguffins to the most unlikable characters? Why does Gearbox only ever want to include the characters that drive people to hate them, INSTEAD OF THE ONES WE ACTUALLY LOVE?! Where's Mordecai Brick and Tina? Where's Clappy? Where's Marcus- and YES I'm being serious Marcus is hilarious when he gets the spotlight! Where's Mr. Torgue? Where's any of the Borderlands 2 Vault Hunters like Sal Axtron and Gaige? Yes they're in a DLC but when your main tagline is "War is coming" WHY are they suddenly excluded so that Tannis can magically be given Angel's Powers out of bumfuck nowhere and that Lilith can be a martyr icon to "sacrifice herself for the greater good" and apparently come back in Borderlands 4???
Man, people really do forget the playable characters of the 1st game ARE FUCKING MERCENARIES. The story ain’t good but god damn why should these characters care about anything or have remorse? This used to be about mad max planet, these characters have no business being “heroes”.
Ikr, it's extremely odd to me that Lilith has killed innocent people but as soon as she she's Jack do it with a semi-good reason, it's enough to call him a psychopath and attempt to kill him
The class mod I prefer for Lilith is the Mercenary mod. It is a game about shooting guns, not running around and exploding! Unless you’re Brick. But he was broken to start with.
@@TheNoMoreGamer I have a very slow playthrough going of him focused on explosive weapons in general. He is literally the last of them I’m playing and it is not canon. I love the character they made of him, but playing him feels like a chore with how many things about him don’t work right (or at all) and bad RNG does not help. Tldr, love the character, but not the mechanics.
@@sevenember3332 I feel that. Wait until you get the capstone for the explosive tree, it changes everything. BL1 is also much more of a slow burn experience, I think it’s the most difficult from start to finish
Since I cracked the Weapon Proficiency Code, I'm gonna do Borderlands 1 playthroughs with each character using only one weapon type. The Weapon Proficiency Code is the fact that the weapon in hand as you gain XP is what gains Proficiency, each time, every time. So if you only carry one type of weapon, say Sniper Rifle, then that weapon type will eventually become extremely OP. Like over Level 55 OP. I haven't done it yet. I can't wait to do it. Right now I'm doing a Brick playthrough equipping only Shotguns and Rocket Launchers, and absolutely nothing else. I am alternating between the two weapon types evenly so that the Weapon Proficiencies will level up evenly. By the time my Brick is level 60, I expect his Shotgun and Rocket Launcher Proficiencies to be well over 25 a piece. By Level 69 I'm expecting over 27 a piece. I'm saving Lilith for second to last, and Mordecai for last. With Lilith it will be SMG only. With Mordecai it will be handguns only. Yup, just Revolvers and Repeaters.
Jack didn't deserve to die by the players hand, Jack didn't deserve to die by the hand of the Firehawk... Jack was a pathetic, weak little man, a betrayer... and the one he betrayed more than anyone else deserved to kill him.... Should have went like this. "Mordicai, Brick, did you bring him?", "Sure did Lil! There ya go little buddy.", "Thanks Brick! HEY MINION, you beat Jack. I knew you had it in you! Now if you don't mind, I got a bit of business to discus with him.... Soooo Jack, would you happen to know the difference between Choking... And Strangling?" And we get to watch him sob and gag as his life is choked out of him by two little clamps, killed by the butt of the joke character of the Series. :P
I loved that little guy since bdl 1 and was soo sad he couldn't come with us to the final fight with Jack ;^; So after Jack hit the dirt I went up to his lifeless body and said "This is for you buddy" and TEABAGGED HIS COOORPSE!!
I usually think the "kill all those henchmen yet you won't kill the main guy" crituqes are stupid, but in this case, I agree. It makes little sense why the valut hunters of 2 wouldn't kill Handsome Jack. Amd it's weird in a bloody game like Borderlands that the devs are concerned with the players murdering in their post apocalyptic looter shooter where they had murder tons before. Because not all of those gun fights were self defense on the plauer's part. Like side quests.
I thought Lilith gonna eventually became antagonist of third game - especially with promising of some kind of "space war" when everyone needed. PS's ending promised me something really dark and tragic. And I was dissapointed.
My guess is like many, MANY other games released around 2019-2022 is that The developed projects story got scrapped nearing completion and they had to make the game story from the ground up while keeping mechanics in locations. Lilith was only a bad character in 3 because it's 3. We can fix this but it's unlikely since we all saw what they did with the new tales from the borderlands.
@drunkenskunkproductionsdsp8094 it is not a good enough reason to lose Roland and have her take over. Maybe if she showed up and Roland couldn't even get one. He climbed a mountain to get there but couldn't climb the core? Weak shit 🤣 and the mental gymnastics you did is massive cope
@drunkenskunkproductionsdsp8094 nah, we'd have figured something else out without her. She could also have helped and then fucked off instead of vainly sticking around to kill more enemies to show off how useful she was. She could see Angel was a siren, she could have processed that her being there would tempt Jack to show up to replace his way to charge the key he just lost. But she didn't think about any of this stuff because she was too butthurt about being left in Sanctuary.
Are we all going to ignore the fact she blew up the moon that had god knows how many innocent people living on there at the end of BL3. Always rubbed me the wrong way that she's called a hero for that. Jack saved them just for Lilith to kill them later on.
There are a bunch of problems with bl3's story, like how they could have had Troy take over since they started the only reason he was even with his sister was because his existance was parasitic and if he couldn't absorb some of her power he would literally die, He gets Mya's powersand for the first time in his entire life he doesn't need his sister anymore, he can do what he wants, hell he could even have taken Tyreen's powers because she essentially forced him into the life they currently live, since he didn't even want to leave their homeworld to begin with and his boss fight was more interesting than Tyreen's was.
would have been interesting if they started fighting(jungle planet hinted at it happening) and you could have picked one to side up with. Each has their pros/cons and why they are the way they because of the other one. Plus that's 2 different final fights(with specific loot) that could have had slightly different endings.
@@Chippaization Yup, I hope in BL4 they reference the COV, like I can imagine the main antagonist being a bandit who's holding the COV together, because Tyreen and her brother were the only people to have even given them opportunities, i'm betting every bandit on pandora, crazy or not, assumes they'll die on that world, plus as a bandit no one gives a shit about you as you're just viewed as a hazard and an obstacle. So I can imagine them keeping everything together as best they can because now they have options, they don't have to die on that world, and they don't want to let it die when they finally got to see the wider universe.
The one thing I’ll say, is despite her stupid and confusing actions, said actions did give rise to one of the best video game villains in Handsome Jack. Other than that, Lilith’s current characterization can be left in the garbage where it belongs.
Basically, Lilith is a case of "the heroes are the ones that won", basically, in a hypotetical case where Jack won, Jack would be seen as a hero and Lilith as a villain. That's why people are basically kissing her ass when everyone in Borderlands are pieces of shit or demented.
For me, lilith has always been a shit character. She literally was a crackhead in borderlands 2 and was pretty much the main reason Roland died and jack charged the key. Never liked her, and never will.
@@Jessepigman69 addicted to eridium. Yes or no the first time you met Lilith and you were giving her eridium it was like giving heroin to a heroin addict.
@stolenheart1760 exacly. Help her recharge her powers. She uses it to steal your second winds from the bloodshot raid and to raise a whole city and phase it to the other side of Pandora. Does she use it at any other point?
Mordecai should not have been on the b team, when roland died andlillith was taken by jack he quite literally stepped up to get plans to stop jack brick even planned on getting a drop barge to get into heros pass and lillith hardly plans anything and sends us to talk to anyone else for a plan
What do you expect from these writers? Fkin' middle-school fanfic levels of storytelling. BL3 ruined the franchise. I couldn't even finish it; just did the DLC cause some of them were easily better than the entire game's main story. After that I ending up watching a friend finish it. It's all just so disappointing. They SPECIFICALLY take characters we as gamers like(ESPECIALLY female characters) and just ruin them. The character assassination is real. Make no mistake, they do it on purpose to solidify the 'out with the old' mentality. I'm so exhausted with it all.
Hey, hey, _hey_ ! Don't do fanfic writers dirty like that! I'm a fanfic author and I've read fanfics that were 100x more coherent and put together than BL3! At least.... the writers are at Wattpad levels of fanfic writing. Mediocre and thin for fanfic standards, but horrendous for professional standards!
only now? lilith has been an arogant, irrational pos ever since the pre-sequel, where she tried to kill athena for "being responsibility for rolands death", when in reality the one responsible for his death was lilith herself, when she ignored angels explicit instruction not to go to angel's prison, distracting roland and giving handsome jack an opening to kill him and the oppurtunity to capture her. girl is willing to kill someone else, so she doesn't have to face the consequences of her own arrogance. not to mention the whole eridium addiction in 2 and appointing ava (that equally arogant, self-absorbed, non-repenting mary sue of a character) of all people as the next leader of the crimsion raiders. yeah, lilith has always been a bit of a crappy person, except for maybe the first game.
Absolutely spot on assessment. Lilith is a right royal c*nt, not the hero goddess of Pandora. And it finally hit me why she gave control of Sanctuary and Crimson Raiders to Ava (apart from her being the head writer's OC). Ava is just Lilith 2.0. She went through the exact same "character arc" of not listening, going where she was told not to, getting someone killed, blaming it on others, and finally, gaining a leadership role.
Lilith did not distract Rolan anymore than anyone else did. He had his back turned and was giving orders to everyone. I hate Lilith as much as anyone else, but it's hard to argue it was anyone's fault except for Handsome Jack himself.
"we don't want the player to be a straight up murderer" 9 year old me in 2013 that had my screen filled with blood using krieg's buzzaxe all the time: yeah what he said
Gonna be honest here, i started hating lilith around a year before BL3 came out, because i started to really think about what she actually does in BL2 She doesn't do anything up until she needs to save Sanctuary, then she's praised as a hero then continues to do nothing. When Angel explicitly tells her to do exactly nothing by not coming to her chambers, she decides "Im gonna do a little trolling, hey look, bad guys". My resentment towards her is only made worse when BL3 says that she was the one to kill Handsome Jack even though she still didn't do anything. And once again, at the end of the game she's praised a hero for her sacrifice. Though i'll admit, she deserved the praise for her sacrifice, and maybe she deserved the praise when she lifted Sanctuary, i just personally don't believe she earned that one in the slightest. Also for someone who could teleport us back to Sanctuary from the Bunker, you'd think she'd be able to do that exact same thing, just in reverse order edit: oh yeah, forgot to mention her involvement in the Pre Sequel.
I mean, I'd argue that, in that case, she was losing control and that was her last ditch effort to at least get someone to safety to ensure her capture didn't result in a TPK. Also, from my recollection of things, I don't think she should be blamed for what happened to Roland, I'm pretty sure it would have happened with or without her there.
Lilith being the “Main” character drags other characters down, borderlands kind of don’t need main character, likeable playable vault hunters. Some fun, deep, helpful and/or weird side characters for aiding the story and helping the playable characters. And villain you hate and understand where you can see they were good at one point but stuff like power,influence and/or emotion breaking points cause them to become the biggest scum on pandora. I kind of want the Siren and Eridians plot line to end with 4 and maybe focus on a new cast with the only returning characters being Claptrap who no one surprisingly kills do to him siding with very forgiving people.
Not much know but in the first game, she was this arrogant woman who’d look down on the enemies and had kind of a wicked side. I like how she grew from that. Was nice. I don’t think making her the next Jack would’ve necessarily been a bad thing but if they were going to go that route they could’ve made it way better.
My theory is that the Vault Hunters are the villains in the story. Perhaps Joh-, er, Handsome Jack was right the whole time as the Calypso twins would never have come close to accomplishing what they did if he was able to wipe out the bandits. No bandits, no COV.
@@4thSurviver Which means you forgot about Opportunity. Jack may have been crazy but he still had a place to house people considered to be decent (even if it did sound like slavery). The issue is that comparing Jack to the next tyrants, the Calypsos, Jack was small scale in comparison and he may have gotten a glimpse of this potential future if the bandits were not wiped out
Eh, I think Jack would have gone on to be a terror in his own right if he was allowed to succeed. His definition of 'Bandit' is way too broad and he's more than willing to kill innocent people just for the crime of questioning or correcting him. Even if the Vault Hunters are villains, Jack is no hero. If anything, he was worse.
@@LordTyph I like your point. However, your statement based on my logic would mean Jack is a demon if not the Devil himself. Following his story, I think he was a man apart and slowly spiraled after the death of his wife. He saw bandits being the causation that led to his daughter accidentally killing her mother/his wife because of the bandit break in. In his mind, all bandits were evil. It's not unlike how people form strong prejudice and become racist. His was just formed with extreme trauma and grief. Let's also not forget the story of his upbringing by his grandmother. Jack is a tale of what can happen when you keep going through trauma, you bottle it up, and you never seek therapy. But hey... I'm not saying the rest. I'm not going to have that guy looking for me. You know, name rhymes with FatCat...😏
honestly i didnt liked her anymore since tps i mean i know i know jack was a bad guy n stuff but honestly she put the nail in the coffin of his heroic persona. also i cant stand her power flexing in 3 and idk i feel annoyed by her in a lot of ways.
I don't really blame her not finishing off Jack considering that he had Wilhelm, Nisha, & Timothy who (either through obligation or support) would have attacked her if she hadn't immediately left, not including Athena, Claptrap, & Aurelia who were all pissed at her. So she would've had to fight at least 3 Vault Hunters to finish killing him
lilith after bl2 is evil in tps she was pretty fked up ccuz hly shit but it just gets worse and worse hypocricy its also frustrating how she got an entire dlc to develop her character to be a leader and take the mantle and in bl3 she just devolved again into a state worse then before that dlc a dlc mind you that only exists cuz they needed to prop her up and have a way to do the calypsos instead of the actual plot we all wanted
i honestly think lilith is the sole reason jack went crazy because dont forget that artifact she destroyed alongside scarring jack was in the process of dumping info into his freaking mind having it break midway while still linked would have seriously messed up his head! also i doubt those scientists were entirely innocent
Borderlands had actual writers up to Borderlands 2. Then the DEI hires came and ruined not only her, but the entire story. It was to a less extent in the pre sequel, since the writers were just starting to get exchanged, but since bl3, it went completely downhill.
Up to the presequel, i didn't really mind. Lilith actions in BL1 and BL2 are only ethically better than Jacks, because she was on the defensive side. If in BL2, you had a chance to blow up the Helios, Lilith would 100% have ordered it in my opinon. But yes, making her an unfailable hero is really a bit too much, when she just happened to be on the right side of the war
The crimson raiders are all murderers! Haha thats the point, borderlands isnt about good and evil its just two evil groups fighting it out for top spot.
It’s sad to say that Borderlands as a franchise has killed all interest for me with these recent releases. A lot of my love and adoration for this series came from the characters, and the sheer volume of character assassination seen in the past two games is insane. Not to mention their weird quest to turn Lilith into the main character of the series.
Correct me if i had missed something entirely, but didn't Jack turn out the way he did because people kept betraying him? Like he was genuinely trying to be a good person. The worst thing happened when he was getting all that knowledge poured into his head and lilith attacked him and corrupted it
I mean... he was never a "good guy" even though he has thay persona in TPS and IS trying to save the moon and be a hero.. He's still enslaving his daughter and had used her to spy on and guide the first VHs to open the Vault
Why they can't just go with taping with eridium makes you lose empathy or some other evil crap. Also they really didn't do anything with the "I lost powers" trobe. Many ways home BL3 Story is a mess. There is like dozan good ideas that were scrapped from Story boards.
I genuinely hate Lilith's character arc; I spent so much time playing BL1 as her. She became my favorite character, and I liked how her insecurities made her a less reliable leader in 2 than Roland and how the Pre-sequel set her up to be a future villain. The problem stems from Gearbox becoming overly pandering. I love seeing strong women in gaming, but I also want to see women in evil roles doing messed up shit because they have the potential to be just as evil as men. As soon as Anthony Birch left Gearbox, Randy got his hands on it and said, "Lilith is a woman. She can't be evil! She's the hero of the story now! This girl is on fire! She would totally watch me perform magic tricks!" They ignored the Pre-sequel entirely as that setup is simply too dark to handwave away blaming 2K Australia. Retconning her to have always been a hero, yawn. Lilith and Moxxi had the potential to be the best villains of Borderlands, the mask of being a hero had slipped with Athena's ordered execution. Half of the Vault Hunters may have found that they liked being heroes more than mercenaries, but others could side with Lilith saying, "I only got in this biz for the money; we're treasure hunters after all." Lilith and Moxxi could have left the Crimson Raiders, with a few of the more money-hungry Vault Hunters like Salvador and Axton but the setup for BL3 being them returning as they report that Lilith and Moxxi have been losing their minds as they made their terror dome battle arena more vicious by kidnapping people to participate in the blood sport. Lilith, being the final challenger for anyone who made it to the last round, would always win as she would get hopped up on Eridium before a fight and atomize anyone before they won. In the pursuit of Money and Eridium, Lilith and Moxxi had made the world of Pandora a lawless wasteland of kill or be killed, proving Jack right even if his methods were too violent, Lilith was and would always be a bandit, someone who first stepped on that bus to make her fortune, someone who wouldn't help if she didn't get a cash reward or a new gun along the way. But nope, let's make fun of streamers who are totally influential enough to get billions brainwashed while the Hero Lilith just let them build up a big ass army and doesn't have enough of a backbone to stand up to a literal 12-year-old. Borderlands is dead to me; as far as I'm concerned, the studio exploded after the Pre-sequel, and we as a community were left on a cliffhanger that would never get resolved.
I like that Lilith turns on you and Jack at the end of Pre Sequel and just how bloodthirsty she is in the hostage scenes, I guees you could call them. It really shows you a different perspective and a view on how Lilith treats jer enemies, which is in line with her beign a playable Borderlands character. Like, think, if you were playing as Lilith in that moment and were given the choice ro kill Athena, and instead of playing througj the Pre Sequel, you just heard about it, wouldn't you want ti kill the person wjo helped the person who killed off a former playable character? I feel like most would just shoot Athena themsevles. Am I wrong?
I remember reading a thread somewhere that says they believe Lilith will be the bad guy in Borderlands 4, since she got Tyreen's powers as well as her own when Tyreen died. Tyreen was the newest seventh siren since the original seventh siren was locked in Nekrotafeyo's vault so her powers couldn't be passed on until Tyreen was conceived, while all of the legends about sirens claimed there were always and only six. The seventh's powers make them power hungry, and as powerful as Lilith was, now with Tyreen's strength from absorbing the vault beasts she would be unstoppable and still hungry.
Lilith in the pre-sequel ends up justifying Jack's view of anyone living on Pandora: everyone is a bandit (and he is right about it FFS) i'm glad that not everyone on the internet is deepthroating the pre-sequel's story because i, for one, started hating the characters from that same game
The only Borderlands game I like is Tales From the Borderlands, and even in that game I chose the evil ending by destroying Hyperion and reverting humanity back to the Stone Ages, so I agree with you completely that Handsome Jack is in fact the best character in the franchise, and it's a shame he was killed off for a bratty Mary-Sue.
If the writing wasnt what it was theyd have sent literally anyone other than Lilith, Maya and Ava after the twins whose powers are ABSORBING SIREN POWERS. Too bad Brick and Mordecai are too busy... checks notes* going to a birthday party..... Also what a shame Salvador and Axton were too busy.... being poor?
i only played Borderlands 2 and 3, liked lilith in 2, the Dlc for Jack´s backstory i loved because i love it when both sides are just two evils, and the good in both is explored. With this, it was a perfect route to make Lillith either the next villain, or replace Maya´s part which would have made way more, or better sense. Like here; you start out with Maya being the new boss around sanctuary, you get the reason later because Lilith, after Athena´s whole execution thing actually confronted and regretted all her decision, realizing her part in eventually killing Roland, among the Chaos with it, and she chose to become the passive monk, and eventual tutor for Ava she became. With this, her semi-sacrifice would feel a lot less random and "feminizing" i´ll call it. And Ava being mad at her tutor could be started by learning that she wasn´t the good and peacefull person she made herself to be. I mean i am still mad about killing off maya, like i feel like i´m the only one who enjoyed that shitty montage, i thought that was a peak joke, but ey you can´t have everything. The way the main antagonist went out btw... Felt really lame. Like the Calypso´s at the end... it could have been a lot more interesting, but it felt like they just lost whatever passion they had midway, and just said yeah let´s just finish it. And also; yeah the fuck, why is Lilith getting the credit for everything? it really felt like they just wanted to make her artificially great to make her "struggle" of loosing her powers, and sacrificing herself feel bigger, when she already had enough credit and love from borderlands 2. 3 could have been a great arc for her, even if they did a cop-out and save her in 4, would have been just a better journey.
I'm quite happy to see someone say why they hate Lilith and critique her character. She is absolutely my least favorite character in the entire franchise, and it's largely for the same reason that you state: the later games put Lilith up on a pedestal and hail her as a hero; when more like Lilith is no better than any other character within the franchise. Something that I love about Borderlands and its characters is its twisted sense of morality, like how good things can come from bad actions or good intentions can bring about bad actions ("the road to hell is paved with good intentions"). It can be complicated to fully judge a character as a "villain" or "hero" because everyone is a little fucked up and morally ambiguous in this universe. Putting Lilith in such a high esteem defeats this core aspect of Borderlands and its characters and its universe to me, and that has always bothered me. I honestly want to compare what Gearbox is doing to Lilith to how a large portion of the fanbase believes that Handsome Jack is actually a hero. I think the argument that Handsome Jack is actually the hero is bull and does a large disservice to the complexity of his character, and frankly Gearbox making Lilith a hero seems like the exact same problem to me. Don't mistake what I'm saying, for clarity I'm not saying that Lilith is a tyrannical megalomaniac like Handsome Jack, but she isn't a total saint either. Writing her as one takes away a lot of possible nuance for her character. I have to say that it also doesn't help that the way in which Gearbox likes to idolize Lilith is very forced. I really feel like an essential aspect of Borderlands' character writing and spirit was lost when Lilith was written to be the main protagonist.
Couldn't of said it better myself. I was really hoping that Lilith would go on a villan ark after TPS. It made so much sense and would've been so interesting. Sadly we got the opposite.
@@Cashew1405 You got Evil Lilith in the Fantastic Fustercluck lmao I'm just kidding, but I can agree. Despite the criticisms with how Lilith was written in TPS, it really would've been more interesting to see her continue down that path of revenge that she was on in the present-day cutscenes of TPS. Combine her revenge with her desperately avoiding / trying to fill Roland's shoes, and with good character conflict and introspection unfolding within a story, it might would make anything "heroic" that she would do more meaningful. It would feel less forced and more earned with proper development.
I'm personally fine with Lilith killing Jack in B2. What's confusing is that B3 literally tells us two different stories - Ava says Lilith killed Jack (presumably learned from Maya after Maya watched Jack die) but then in DLC1 Moxxi says Jack "met the business end of a vault hunter". It's clear that Moxxi isn't talking about Lilith, as the player is already familiar with Lilith bc she's one of the very first people you meet in B3. Why would she ever refer to Lilith as "vault hunter" and not "Lilith"? This is just another on the long list of examples of B3 writers losing their grip of the canon.
I remember someone else pointing out that the inaccuracies between games COULD BE due to the fact that each game is told via the perspective of different people at the start Marcus narrates BL1 to an orphan Athena narrates Pre Sequel to Tony Tina, Pickle, Brick and Mordecai BL2 is narrated by the orphan (to Marcus) ..... I still haven't played BL3 yet But yeah, that's the theory that comforts me whenever I get upset about each game just entirely losing the plot from one to the other
Beloved Bodderlands character Tony out here fixing the narrative frfr But really though, I've never liked the idea of the narrator of the story being unreliable in any way. It makes everything you did not matter since it can be taken away in an instant. Happy that it helps you hate the games less tho lmao
I love Lilith, but the pre-quel and BL3 did her dirty. They took her from a cool mercenary with special powers to someone thrust into the role of leader when she wasn't ready and for the sake of plot, the took away her abilities at the start of BL3, only to give them back near the end, just so she could sacrifice herself to save Pandora. Pandora was not worth saving and Ava isn't worthy of being a siren. I'm in no hurry for a BL4 cause cause I've already played their DLCs and I'm not interested in the endgame content they have.
To be fair Jack going downhill is somewhat seperate besides lilith, as we've seen him deal the entire people of pandora or anyone who refuses to live like he 'says' or 'wants' to be killed. Jack is almost like the pinkertons in a way, the death of a wild west planet of lawlessness and madness- using 'his power' to reign in the chaos --- but it doesn't mean he suddenly has a right or mandate to do so. We also see Jack can be incredibly petty and cruel as well so he was a villain regardless of sanctuary but also it's somewhat clearly shown even regardless of lilith in the pre-sequels Jack was going down a power hungry egotistical path. But you make a good point about Lilith in most cases, but I think the death of one of borderlands best characters is what ultimately changed lilith from her clear downward spiral as roland himself could see Lilith doing so and didn't want that for her, he was not power hungry like Jack AND lilith herself were, he was not greedy and self interested. He was selfless and responsible, and that trait carried over to lilith in a way she could honor and show her love for him, and that is something I can understand and respect.
While I agree that they really could have handled her better a lot of things can be inferred. Such as the attempted execution of Athena. Being in a leadership role after someone she cared about dying and being forced to help someone she hates brings a lot of stress and trauma. So we can at least some of that is affecting her decision making, and unlike Roland, she was care free and irresponsible, which, if I remember correctly, was a point of tension and disagreement in there relationship. There was a rather large gap of time between the second and third game and she likely grew into the leader she was in the third game, but a big problem with that is, we didn't get to see any of it, unless you you count the battle for sanctuary dlc and even then it's argueable. From carefree to making sure Roland's legacy is taken care of without seeing any of the development that makes her a good leader. It's unfortunate but true.
Now that I've thought about it a bit more, when it comes to the choice to make Lilith the one that kills Jack the reason why they did that was that it was the way they wanted to go forward as a revenge story, while in game Canon, it would be a huge boost to the crimson lance and it's new leader, Lilith, and from what can be relatively inferred from the third game the player characters from 2 didn't really care enough to seek fame for it. Especially since it seems the only ones in contact with the Crimson Lance, relatively anyway, is Maya, Krieg, Zero, and the mechromancer (can't remember her name), with the others only heard and/or talked about in echo recordings.
But even that is extremely contradictory to the characterisation of bl2 Vault hunters. Axton was all about the fame and Glory, to an extent, so was Sal. Lilith being the one that killed handsome jack could've fueled a "revenge is never the right answer" story or a "struggling to do the right thing" story, but bl3 does none of that, so it feels pointless to take it away from the player. Cheers for the comments tho :))
Personally I almost want them to lean into the whole "Everyone keeps forgiving Lilith too much" to the point where she is actively becoming a villain. She already basically has a hero complex, might as well pull a hero-to-villain arc
They should've done that for bl3's story if they were going to do it. In bl4 she's most likely gonna be chilling in moon dimension for the vast majority of the game
I think I’ve given up on this franchise because gearbox can’t be consistent with whatever direction it is that they’re trying to take it in. The movie makes it painstakingly clear that they’re continuing in that decision making even more, but at full throttle.
![The Sympathetic Strawman - How Marvel Accidentally Created One of the Best MCU Characters [reupload]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SalgNl0Nnvs/mqdefault.jpg)
Bl3 is peak character assassination for everyone
I don’t have any DLCs for that game.
What happened to Salvador and Axton?
@@palecaptainwolfkayls8499 I haven't played the DLC myself so im not entirely sure what its about, but i believe they both become podcast hosts where they talk about guns. Pretty sure its the Arms Race DLC or whatever its called
@@-Alter-
Surprisingly, that’s everything I know, except what happens in the DLC itself.
@@-Alter- Yes, this. Gearbox literally made no attempt at all on using the BL2 cast and forged some nonsense, below average, fanfic level writing for all of our beloved characters. It drives me nuts.
This game is just like Sly Cooper Thieves in Time in terms of character assassination.
"we wouldn't want the player to be a murderer" borderlands? The game about explosions, killing, violence, and guns?
Yup. Surprised me too
Randy has always been a massive detriment to the series. Borderlands succeeded despite him.
Aaand what do you call what I did to Face McShooty?
@@sevenember3332 Well, can we really call it murder if he was asking to get shot?
@@Paradox_AlucardYes
The craziest part of all this is they slowly forgot one of the main ideas behind borderlands is your not a hero your a treasure hunter/thrill seeker not really about saving anything XD
Not necessarily a villian either.
Yeah it doesn't take a genius to figure it out either, there aren't really any "good guys" in Borderlands, just people acting out in their own best interest. if it wasn't for Jack's insanity he would've been the best chance for Pandora, but then he had to throw people into space and massacre civilians
@@enviralmental8103well honestly him getting betrayed was what screwed everything up
you're*
@@RenegadeStriker7 Not really he was kinda screwed up from the get go he just didn't go off the rails into pre-sequel, you don't remember that mission of his grandmother's house with the bloody meat bicycle? That abuse at a young age def did something to him
She had a clear shot at the twins. Both of those idiots wandered out to sanctuary 3 by themselves. If the writing wasn't so god awful, the twins could've easily fell.
The writers and devs make that situation worse. Tannis wouldn't phase shift the door open, Elle is just annoying shes does nothing to back her up to act like a bad ass.They managed to make all the characters worse. Lilith is supposed to be a leader yet no crimson raider was out there with her or even tried to help her.
Lilith: Gets rekt; does not teleport to save her life.
Tyrene: Teleports for camera angles
a sad state of writing; "i guess Lilith kinda forgot about the phasewalk ability and immunity to damage".
Even the cut scene between her and Ava wouldnt have helped Lilith's character arc at all. "I feel insecure about living up to Roland's role as leader" is just NOT how she should feel. She should feel GUILTY. She set off the chain reaction that led to Roland dying. New Lilith is a fucking tyrant with convenient amnesia.
Trueeeee
oh thats right, she's responsible for rolands death TWICE.. okay well ROland probrably would've been shot if she didnt go to the bunker but still
I'm pretty sure the cut scene was written after to save face because it would make no sense to cut something so important.
@@AWholeLegionary Eh, could be, but honestly Gearbox has been fumbling the narrative ever since TPS
Roland would've still died regardless because Jack has a funny wrist watch. Angel didn't want Lilith to be in there so Jack wouldn't use her as a replacement power generator.
Borderlands 3 made playing it even worse because your character has absolutely no place in the main story. Every cutscene plays out like they aren't there and it was in fact Lilith that completed all objectives. The end of the game is a massive kick in the teeth, and hearing "That girl is on fire" was the cherry on top of a putrid pile of shit.
I felt nothing on that ending until i heard the song and laughed my ass off on it, its like seeing a shitpost and someone dies and that 1 trumpet song plays with the bottomtext (rip (name) 1989-2024) on screen
Ava's existence was enough for me to quit.
ngl when i saw the ending, that girl is on fire ending made me laugh out loud
@@TrumpFTW2024 I quite early too. The writing was just too bad for me to stomach. Ava deserved to be capped.
Sorry, what? The player character has a body count of hundreds of thousands of people, and the developers think that killing Handsome Jack is too much?
It's cause he's already dying and defenceless when you kill him. But yeah, makes no sense to get hung up on it
@@Cashew1405 as a krieg main that makes no sense like why would krieg give a fuck about jack being weak?
@@Cashew1405 maybe its a mercy kill if he is already dying
@@badtime9000 doesn't make sense for any hero, Maya Jack would've captured you instead even then all she's seen of Jack she would be justified in killing him due to his treatment of sirens, Salvador is well.... himself (same with Krieg), don't think Axton or Gaige really cares about killing a defenseless Jack, Zero is the only one you can kind of justify just being bored about it not being a challenge.
@@badtime9000it was for the players not the characters.
"time to talk to lilith
time to talk to lilith!
aboard sanctuary III
on the other end of the ship!"
- oboeshoesgames
Letting Lilith deal the final blow, to me, wasn't for the player to avoid "committing murder". It was to let Lilith take personal revenge for the murder of Roland whom she had begun dating. This option made the Pre-Sequel rug pull on her character all the more interesting as the player discovers that Lilith isn't the victim that she was shown to be in Borderlands 2 but the reason it all happened in the first place and why Jack specifically singled her and Roland out after the death of Angel. It had me personally wondering just how much Lilith knew about a Siren's true purpose in the universe, what plans she had with her gift and special bond with the Eridians, and how this would impact her relation with Maya who had zero understanding of her own Siren powers or purpose.
But then 3 came out and destroyed everything by completing forgetting the events of the Pre-Sequel, turning Lilith into Pandora Jesus, and killing off Maya. What a waste.
It being canon that she kills Jack alway pisses me off. So all that work we did, to stop and one of the most dangerous and crazy CEOs in the universe just, didn't happen? That "We didn't want the player to feel like a murderer." shit is stupid.
The murderer argument is so odd because letting Lilith do it only makes her a murderer which only further makes the hero ark so jarring
Even more stupid since it essentially loops around to the player being a murderer point anyways when we played as her in BL1.
If they didn’t want to glaze Lilith for things she was basically a damsel for, they could have lumped her in with the “Vault Hunters who stopped Handsome Jack” and ran with that phrasing instead, leaving whoever killed him up to interpretation _and_ giving the 6 proper validation for it.
Is that what it is? I always looked at it as letting her get payback for Roland and for being forced into being a battery for the vault key.
@EdwardNewgate58 The reason Roland died, and she got used as a battery for the Vault Key, is because Lilith disobeyed Roland's orders and followed us to Angel's Compound. If Lilith stayed at/on Sanctuary, she wouldn't have been grabbed to he used as the new battery, and there'd be a good chance Roland would still be alive.
I genuinely feel like Borderlands 2 and the Pre-Sequel might've been setting up Lilith to straight up become the villain moving forward into BL3, but something happened with the writing team and they changed their mind. Like, there's a BUNCH of flags along her character arc throughout the series that could lead her down that path. She started off pretty neutral, just a treasure hunter with super powers. Her treasure hunting amounted to nothing, leaving her basically stuck on a hellish planet with nothing but a small group of friends, one of which she starts dating. She betrays someone who's mentally unstable, turning him into a villainous tyrant, who in turns causes so much pain and suffering that her boyfriend starts a military faction to fight back, while she doesn't directly contribute to the cause, despite him actually killing at least one person she had personal ties to. All the while, she's messing with her own powers, which she doesn't understand, and subjecting herself to chemicals that she also doesn't understand, all in order to boost/alter the way her powers function. Then, her boyfriend dies, murdered by the man she turned into a monster, and she inherits leadership of the military force she created, and does not have the experience or leadership skills to run effectively. Yet thanks to some of the most useful people that are helping her fight Jack, she wins and promptly executes him if the player doesn't do so. Then, she captures and interrogates Athena who helped Jack rise to power, but even after it's clear that Athena didn't like Jack and was glad he was dead and refused to help him once he went nuts, Lilith is still like "Nah, f*ck you, you helped Jack" and was about to kill Athena even though she knew damn well she might be just as responsible for Jack as Athena was. It legitimately felt like they were setting up Lilith to go nuts, getting drunk off her newfound power, responsibility, and possibly a damaged mental state thanks to the way she was screwing with her Siren powers. Even the way the bandits of Pandora became a cult in BL3 felt like it might've been something Lilith was intended to do since we already saw that there was some weird worshipping of her because of the whole "Firehawk" thing in BL2. I think those stupid twins were a last minute change because the writers decided partway into production that they didn't want Lilith going off the deep endz so now we've got a character that gets endless praise and hero worship despite doing outright terrible things.
I don't think the twins were a last minute change, rather a change in writing teams that wanted to do drastically different things with zero communication between them, since 2kAUS shut down.
@@Cashew1405 Yeah, "last minute" was kinda poorly phrased on my part. If my theory is right, it definitely wasn't too late in development, but there are bits and pieces in the plot of BL3 that feel like they would've made more sense if it was something an evil, power hungry, and possibly chemically altered Lilith might have done. Like a Siren being worshipped by a cult of bandits when she literally already had that going for her in BL2, as well as the stuff in BL2 and the Pre-Sequel that was actively painting her as someone who is unprepared for the responsibility of leadership she's had dropped in her lap, and has had lapses of judgement that have caused significant harm to everyone around her, including herself. Like, Lilith executing Jack made sense, but the same thing can't be said for the attempted execution of Athena. It really felt like everything leading up to BL3 was establishing that Lilith was morally grey at best, and was on a slippery slope. Grief, a sudden level of unprecedented military power, being worshipped as a god, and potentially having her mental state altered by her experiments with chemicals she doesn't understand that are altering her powers, which she also doesn't understand. It really feels like she was being set up to turn into the next Handsome Jack. Only for the writers to completely turn things around at some point around early to mid-production for BL3 and turn her into a heroic character, probably because the one in charge was a huge fan of Lilith and refused to let her turn down a villainous path. I dunno, it's just a theory, but it could explain why the Twins felt so hollow. It really like they weren't part of the initial plan, because IMO the initial plan would've had an already established character filling their role.
@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince absolutely love this idea. Lilith going mad and trying to claim all the vaults for her faction in the name of Roland. Having the old vault hunters as bosses throughout the game, willingly or otherwise. It would have made the games link together so much better. Maya having an apprentice (Ava) that gets kidnapped and held hostage forcing Maya to fight to save her apprentice. That would have been acceptable.
Plus it would also ring true with Jack's perspective from his BL2 death monologue about saving Pandora from the bandits being what he was trying to do. I think Game Theory did one on how his perspective wasn't as crazy as it might seem. At least enough to make you think. Lilith going power hungry would have been not only a live long enough to see yourself become the villain kind of thing but also would provide extra weight to Jack's perspective.
Things Lilith can't say
1. Your name
Thanks for watching
Even with the low bar of the vault Hunter’s names (Zer0, Maya, etc.) their names are never said. Tragic
Lilith always kills Jack in my games. I'm always too busy reading the purples and looking for a conference call
Before the Guardian falls on top of an orange, and you never get to confirm what it is.
That is completely fair
@@GJGaming208 they patched that years ago. The warrior slides into the lava now
1/2 I 100% agree, especially when they try to give her the credit for killing handsome Jack. When we or the previous vault huters of borderlands, 2 were the ones who did most of the work. Even if they wanna run with that, he was still practically dead.
i just remembered that Mordicai and Brick almost died in a river of lava helping us reach Jack...and lilith is the hero
In the game, you chose to kill Jack yourself or let Lilith kill him. In the canon, the VH (your character) let Lilith kill Jack, so is logical that everyone give's her the credit for the kill.
@@Yeheah of course she did, the player character was obviously too preoccupied with the loot pile
@@stolenheart1760Someone hasn't played the pre sequel, Jack is a hero with borderline personality disorder driven off the deep end by the constant betrayal and Lilith and Moxie were merely the straw that broke the camels back,
And Lilith is a hero but she quick to judge (Jack is an example) and that is her major character flaw.
@Yeheah That still doesn't change the fact that the previous Vault Hunters did most of the work. There was a good example that I had, but TH-cam keeps deleting my comment.
the amount of pure anger I felt when the credits played in BL3 is unimaginable. she steals your accomplishments in BL2 and then has the balls to steal your victory in BL3. AND THEY PLAY "GIRL ON FIRE" like she actually did anything!?!?!?!?!?!? made me wonder why I even bothered, now I haven't bought another gearbox game since and still never will.
I never bought another game after the pre-sequel. It was actually good and had a legit captivating story. I just kinda had a feeling of what they gonna do with 3, and saddly it was even worse.
I hate Lilith because they tried to act like BL3 was her story where the only things she did was exposit, flex her powers, and get beaten up by Tyreen.
Handsome Jack was a better protagonist back in TPS as he was far more directly involved in both the planning and action.
Jack was there facing the first boss.
Risking his life sending you to Elpis.
Facing the Merriff.
Facing Zarpedon.
Sending Loader-BOTs to help you.
Meanwhile what did Lilith do after losing her powers?
Stayed on Sanctuary III, shows up at the very end… to get beaten up by Tyreen again.
There’s no triumph in defeating Tyreen, she dies and Lilith gets her powers back… when she didn’t help at all.
“Lilith didn’t have her powers though!”
How many powers does Mordecai have? Or Roland? Or Hammerlock? Or Wainwright?
Wainwright is partially blind and he was fighting Troy when the latter had powers!
Lilith has shown that she’s nothing without her powers because she truly is.
My Axton was great, then they made him so... Distastefully hyper sexualized and gay focused that it killed my desire to play him.
You know what I liked? I liked Axton's "I don't really care I'm here for the ride and the ride is fun!" Attitude, and then that stupid fuckin shitty ass roguelite lite lite game mode made him and sal absolutely insufferable.
Borderlands 3 is the worst.
That I too noticed - Lilith, you bitch, USE YOUR GUNS!
Damn Maliwan is siren powers dealt by your friendly neighborhood weapons dealer :D
Not sure why people hate on Ava (she's a teenager - havent met one? Havent been one?) - even she with or without powers did a lot more than Lilith :D
@@sharcblazer99Axton was confirmed bisexual in borderlands 2 though?
@@thomassmith4579Note: Distastefully hyper sexualized.
As in, it was severely mishandled.
Hammerlock was confirmed gay in 2, he's not insufferable in TPS or 3, and even has a serious marriage arc.
They are capable of writing this well, they just made Axton a manwhore because it's easier to write him as 2 dimensional.
Krieg, Maya and Gage were handled pretty well, but Flanderization hit the series hard.
I still like to jus think of him as a soldier with obscure feelings for his turret(s) but bl3 really cut all vault hunters out besides Maya and then the dlcs felt forced to have the rest of them fit somehow
It's doesn't help the fact Borderland 3 again treat it's main vault hunters like they don't matter to the story to a point your character don't even appear in cutscenes.
The "silent protagonista representing you" argument can't even be use because they never shut up.
I always thought that the VHs not appearing in BL3 cutscenes was because it was a first person perspective, something the other games did to some extent.
But compared to stuff like Pre-Sequel and Tiny Tina’s BnB ending, I see what you mean.
the only time you're aknowledged is by Troy, he talks directly to your vault hunter, which makes me hate he wasn't the last fight with how pissed he gets when you start closing in on him
@@monotone2256 I was sad to see him go. His final battle seemed like he was taking a shot at not being pushed around all the time and becoming more dominant in their relationship (kinda flipping the twins dynamic that had been in place for most of it leading up to that). It would have made for some great drama if he was able to live at least a little longer after that fight so we could have gotten a bit more of the emotional struggle between them after his play for power. Or at least seen a bit more care between them as even with a self centered personality Tyreen does seem to be hit by his death a little bit. Maybe some angry raging or screaming after he dies would have worked before she covers it up with her online personality. Or biting commentary or sending more hit squads after the player.
I do hope though that if the destroyer shows up again it has some kind of influence from her attempt to merge with it, like the ability to plan or think its way out of its prison or become an insideous force (tying in the cult aspect) plucking the strings in the background (without becoming the sole focus we have to fight against so it isnt an easy enemy to stop). Maybe something like causing problems with other vaults opening as it works to get free with only speculation or tannis giving us an idea of what is actually causing the problems instead of what it looks like on the surface and some kind of change to the situation where we wont be able to reseal it or fight it straight on.
The exact moment I knew they ruined her was the day they put BL3 elements in 2, the Commander Lilith DLC. When going out to save Mordecai, Lilith talks to the Vault Hunter as if the player character wasn't there for the events of 2 and then even states "Without him and everyone else I wouldn't have been able to get the strength to beat Handsome Jack" Something to that effect, like what?! Gearbox was already by then wanted to make the player irrelevant which was seen as a huge issue for BL3. Seriously, what the hell happened to make them do this? As for Lilith, she has flaws and was treated accordingly by her peers and that's a good thing, its what separated her from being a mary sue like Ava but 3 just made what was in that DLC somehow 10 ten times worse for her. Lilith, like most of the legacy characters has been done dirty.
Sounds like they wanted to make a movie, but alas; they are cursed to make games.
For me Lilith, the crimson raiders and Moxxi mainly too are hypocrites Lilith had a chance to kill jack before he could do significant damage but didnt she was a driving factor in his vendetta against them and she just like the rest of the vault hunters in all the borderlands games are mass murderers shes too overhyped. Moxxi on the other hand is not as bad but bad regardless she says in the pre sequel " underneath that smile and hero complex, theres something seriously wrong with you" but Moxxi herself has ran a killing game in almost all the borderlands games bl1 with the underdome, the fridge and the hyperion slaughter in bl2 as well their all just hypocrites
Brick, mordecai and tiny tina left the crimson raiders because of lilith says it all really about bl3's writing those 4 were like family
"We wouldn't want the player to be a murderer." Yes, because everybody knows that borderlands is one the more peaceful games that include no murders at all.
And also, Jack just tried to kill us and everybody on Pandora! What do they think the death penalty is? Those criminals are defenseless, but I don't see many people arguing that killing a child molester is murder. Then again, this is Randy we're talking about...
If they didn’t want to glaze Lilith for things she was basically a damsel for, they could have lumped her in with the “Vault Hunters who stopped Handsome Jack” and ran with that phrasing instead, leaving whoever killed him up to interpretation _and_ giving the 6 proper validation for it.
What makes it frustrating is the Fight for Sanctuary DLC was actually a good remedy of her character, addressing her ruthlessness in the cutscenes of TPS but also giving her some chance to be a better leader and be there for her soldiers. Tonally it felt just right and was what I was expecting 3 to closely follow...oh how wrong I was.
@@ORLY911 yeah for the tps part, when you think about that even people like brick said that jack somehow beginns to sound pretty sympathetic in a way that he cant describe and lilith all the time just hate flames over jacks ,,fake,, heroism. i mean he was the one who saved elpis he lead this entire rescue mission also under threat of his life and lilith made things worse and doesnt even try to remember that she could be a significant part of his crazy behavior and his ultimate downfall. i mean yeah jack was a fanatic asshole at times but he still had a good intention that was worth fighting for.
Honestly if the idea was to make Lilith become progressively unhinged with her growing power and then force her to self reflect once Tryreen steals her powers that could have been an interesting angle
shame literally nothing good writing wise happened in borderlands 3
maybe with the exception of that wild west DLC but then its like how can you fuck up a western its pretty hard
didn't stop Seth Mcfarlane but still
THAT WOULVE WORKED SO WELL!! Another wasted opportunity
I think Krieg's was pretty good too, but it was psychonauts with guns. It's very finicky to get it to hit the right emotional impact, but the enviroments and quests are Hard to screw up given the general tone of the game.
@derpfluidvariant0916 yeah you can tell they were trying there but it's pretty clear that 2020 made development for that dlc extra rough
I absolutely HATED what they did to the story in BL3
It’s so stupid, there are so many issues
Lilith's only contribution to the fight for Pandora was to make things worse.
Truuuuee
I hated her since the Pre-Sequel because she was pivotal in the creation of Handsome Jack as the villain of Borderlands 2.
That in itself isn't even a bad thing if it lead somewhere... but bl3 basically hard cut all story lines to tell a story that no-one wanted.
@@Cashew1405 likely Sweet Baby Inc.'s involvement, they always stifle creativity.
Definitely why she was the one given credit for kiIIing Jack, because "wahman power". Keep in mind, she was already a powerful female character, and you have two powerful female Vault Hunters... they don't get credit. It's just because of DEI hires who had no investment with the story making decisions on surface-level things like characters and locations.
Yeah, but you'd also have to be mad at Moxxi and Roland for that as well. Roland at least was clearly remorseful at the time. Moxxi had a clear intention on killing Jack and brought in Roland and Lilith in the first place.
@@EdwardNewgate58outside Roland, because of his Lack of involvement overal i Do hate moxxxie and Lilith ive been saying it since BLPS
I hate them both and Everytime ive played the games with my friends and family the running gag is how much i hate them both xD
She is littaraly the protagonist of Borderlands 3. There are 4 playable characters. But Lilith is the protagonist. Pulling off not having the player be the main character is incredibly difficult. And Borderlands 3 failed miserably. But note that I said incredibly difficult not impossible. Yuna is the main character of Final Fantasy X. But she is not the perspective the player views the game from. Yet the story is legitimately improved by not being the main character in that story. You still matter.
And your presence helps Yuna tern her tragic story into a bitter sweet one. But that is not how Borderlands 3 does things. In Borderlands 3 Lilith makes every single meaningful decision throughout the story. And you may as well be a RTS unit she is ordering around from on high. Then she gets to save the day at the end while you are completely helpless. Its bad. REALLY BAD!
Just to throw another good example of "player character is not the protagonist" out there: Fire Emblem Awakening. Chrom is the focus character and the driving force behind everything. The player character obviously helps, but ultimately Chrom decides what to do and leads the way. The difference is Chrom actually joins in and fights alongside you, rather than sitting back until everything's swell and then walking over all "I sure did save the day" like Hercule Satan.
Lilith sticking around to kill Jack getting jumped by 3-6 vault hunters, one of which soloed New Haven with her and the other 3 original VHs there
This.
Misha, Whilem, Claptrap, Timothy and Aurelia were canonically there.
All of the pre sequel vh were absoluty OP, they should have bodied her the moment she entered the vault.
LAVA’S RISING GET TO HIGH GROUND!
cant wait for borderlands 4 to somehow have more "talk to lilith" parts even though shes a mooooon
That would an accomplishment if they managed that lmao
Mission 1: go to the moon
Mission 2: TALK TO IT FOR NO REASON AT ALL ( it is a piece of rock floating in space it won't talk with you )
Mission 3: kill a god
What’s funny is that I’ve always disliked Lilith since 2. Everything she’s done is the later games only justified me to hate her. She causes most of the problems we’ve faced in the series and yet the way practically everyone loves her comes off as Mary Sue-ish to me.
Lilith was cool until GearBox decided to make her dumb with her choices I'm still mad about my baby girl Maya died in BL3 I'm sure she could have taken Lilith's place if she practiced more on her powers
Borderlands as a story is overall FUCKED. There is no plausible way they can salvage this. Especially with the new writers that are just destroying this franchise with every new entry.
Edit:
The Pre-Sequel was setting up Lilith to basically be the next Jack due to her addiction to Eridium and her anger over Roland’s death. BL3 drops that plotline because they can’t have Lilith be evil, she MUST be a hero.
Of course, instead of having here do things that show her being heroic, they can only TELL you she is a hero by taking the credit for things she did not even do. Pathetic writing.
Lilith got Roland killed, faced zero repercussions for her actions, lived, proceeded to lose the vault key, spend the entire 3rd game doing nothing but be respected as a "wise leader" for sitting around and doing nothing, got Maya killed after letting Ava sneak out of her sight and not saying anything, and is treated as this fucking messiah that we should all respect because "o-m-g slayy she is like, such a girlboss yass queeen 💅"
And considering the annoying twat that is Ava, Tannis becoming a Siren- why is Gearbox so obsessed with giving free handouts and magical mcguffins to the most unlikable characters? Why does Gearbox only ever want to include the characters that drive people to hate them, INSTEAD OF THE ONES WE ACTUALLY LOVE?! Where's Mordecai Brick and Tina? Where's Clappy? Where's Marcus- and YES I'm being serious Marcus is hilarious when he gets the spotlight! Where's Mr. Torgue? Where's any of the Borderlands 2 Vault Hunters like Sal Axtron and Gaige? Yes they're in a DLC but when your main tagline is "War is coming" WHY are they suddenly excluded so that Tannis can magically be given Angel's Powers out of bumfuck nowhere and that Lilith can be a martyr icon to "sacrifice herself for the greater good" and apparently come back in Borderlands 4???
Man, people really do forget the playable characters of the 1st game ARE FUCKING MERCENARIES. The story ain’t good but god damn why should these characters care about anything or have remorse? This used to be about mad max planet, these characters have no business being “heroes”.
Ikr, it's extremely odd to me that Lilith has killed innocent people but as soon as she she's Jack do it with a semi-good reason, it's enough to call him a psychopath and attempt to kill him
The class mod I prefer for Lilith is the Mercenary mod. It is a game about shooting guns, not running around and exploding! Unless you’re Brick. But he was broken to start with.
@@sevenember3332 I still miss my rocket man. Maxing out the explosion tree was the best feeling I've ever had in this franchise.
@@TheNoMoreGamer I have a very slow playthrough going of him focused on explosive weapons in general. He is literally the last of them I’m playing and it is not canon. I love the character they made of him, but playing him feels like a chore with how many things about him don’t work right (or at all) and bad RNG does not help. Tldr, love the character, but not the mechanics.
@@sevenember3332 I feel that. Wait until you get the capstone for the explosive tree, it changes everything. BL1 is also much more of a slow burn experience, I think it’s the most difficult from start to finish
Always hated her since 1.
She was too overblown.
Mordecai for life.
Since I cracked the Weapon Proficiency Code, I'm gonna do Borderlands 1 playthroughs with each character using only one weapon type.
The Weapon Proficiency Code is the fact that the weapon in hand as you gain XP is what gains Proficiency, each time, every time. So if you only carry one type of weapon, say Sniper Rifle, then that weapon type will eventually become extremely OP. Like over Level 55 OP. I haven't done it yet. I can't wait to do it.
Right now I'm doing a Brick playthrough equipping only Shotguns and Rocket Launchers, and absolutely nothing else. I am alternating between the two weapon types evenly so that the Weapon Proficiencies will level up evenly. By the time my Brick is level 60, I expect his Shotgun and Rocket Launcher Proficiencies to be well over 25 a piece. By Level 69 I'm expecting over 27 a piece.
I'm saving Lilith for second to last, and Mordecai for last.
With Lilith it will be SMG only.
With Mordecai it will be handguns only.
Yup, just Revolvers and Repeaters.
Jack didn't deserve to die by the players hand, Jack didn't deserve to die by the hand of the Firehawk... Jack was a pathetic, weak little man, a betrayer... and the one he betrayed more than anyone else deserved to kill him.... Should have went like this.
"Mordicai, Brick, did you bring him?", "Sure did Lil! There ya go little buddy.", "Thanks Brick! HEY MINION, you beat Jack. I knew you had it in you! Now if you don't mind, I got a bit of business to discus with him.... Soooo Jack, would you happen to know the difference between Choking... And Strangling?" And we get to watch him sob and gag as his life is choked out of him by two little clamps, killed by the butt of the joke character of the Series. :P
Top 10 most poetic deaths of all time
Okay, Claptrap getting the final kill would actually be pretty sick, given the whole thing with how he betrayed him in Claptastic Voyage.
This should have unironically been the ending of BL2. This one scene would make claptrap legitimately likable unironically.
I loved that little guy since bdl 1 and was soo sad he couldn't come with us to the final fight with Jack ;^;
So after Jack hit the dirt I went up to his lifeless body and said "This is for you buddy" and TEABAGGED HIS COOORPSE!!
CL4P-TP ending Jack is a tragically missed opportunity, esp after Pre-Sequel’s DLC.
I usually think the "kill all those henchmen yet you won't kill the main guy" crituqes are stupid, but in this case, I agree.
It makes little sense why the valut hunters of 2 wouldn't kill Handsome Jack. Amd it's weird in a bloody game like Borderlands that the devs are concerned with the players murdering in their post apocalyptic looter shooter where they had murder tons before. Because not all of those gun fights were self defense on the plauer's part. Like side quests.
I thought Lilith gonna eventually became antagonist of third game - especially with promising of some kind of "space war" when everyone needed. PS's ending promised me something really dark and tragic. And I was dissapointed.
My guess is like many, MANY other games released around 2019-2022 is that The developed projects story got scrapped nearing completion and they had to make the game story from the ground up while keeping mechanics in locations. Lilith was only a bad character in 3 because it's 3. We can fix this but it's unlikely since we all saw what they did with the new tales from the borderlands.
I was cool with her until Roland died because she didn't listen and then became the leader....like whaaa???
She was needed because Roland wouldn't have been able to climb to shut off the last shield on the slag pump.
@drunkenskunkproductionsdsp8094 it is not a good enough reason to lose Roland and have her take over. Maybe if she showed up and Roland couldn't even get one. He climbed a mountain to get there but couldn't climb the core? Weak shit 🤣 and the mental gymnastics you did is massive cope
@drunkenskunkproductionsdsp8094 nah, we'd have figured something else out without her. She could also have helped and then fucked off instead of vainly sticking around to kill more enemies to show off how useful she was. She could see Angel was a siren, she could have processed that her being there would tempt Jack to show up to replace his way to charge the key he just lost. But she didn't think about any of this stuff because she was too butthurt about being left in Sanctuary.
@@drunkenskunkproductionsdsp8094 There was canonically 4 vault hunters, technically 6 counting Krieg and Gaige. They would have figured something out.
Especially with 2 engineers
Are we all going to ignore the fact she blew up the moon that had god knows how many innocent people living on there at the end of BL3. Always rubbed me the wrong way that she's called a hero for that. Jack saved them just for Lilith to kill them later on.
There are a bunch of problems with bl3's story, like how they could have had Troy take over since they started the only reason he was even with his sister was because his existance was parasitic and if he couldn't absorb some of her power he would literally die,
He gets Mya's powersand for the first time in his entire life he doesn't need his sister anymore, he can do what he wants, hell he could even have taken Tyreen's powers because she essentially forced him into the life they currently live, since he didn't even want to leave their homeworld to begin with and his boss fight was more interesting than Tyreen's was.
would have been interesting if they started fighting(jungle planet hinted at it happening) and you could have picked one to side up with. Each has their pros/cons and why they are the way they because of the other one. Plus that's 2 different final fights(with specific loot) that could have had slightly different endings.
@@Chippaization Yup, I hope in BL4 they reference the COV, like I can imagine the main antagonist being a bandit who's holding the COV together, because Tyreen and her brother were the only people to have even given them opportunities, i'm betting every bandit on pandora, crazy or not, assumes they'll die on that world, plus as a bandit no one gives a shit about you as you're just viewed as a hazard and an obstacle.
So I can imagine them keeping everything together as best they can because now they have options, they don't have to die on that world, and they don't want to let it die when they finally got to see the wider universe.
The one thing I’ll say, is despite her stupid and confusing actions, said actions did give rise to one of the best video game villains in Handsome Jack. Other than that, Lilith’s current characterization can be left in the garbage where it belongs.
Bro, look at that gameplay footage. This guy is genuinely a fucking pro.
I feel like I'm being made fun of lmao 🤣. I didn't go down too many times did i?
@@Cashew1405
I feel like going down in BL2 to normal duders is standard
They probably mean how you lived against one of The Invincibles.
Basically, Lilith is a case of "the heroes are the ones that won", basically, in a hypotetical case where Jack won, Jack would be seen as a hero and Lilith as a villain. That's why people are basically kissing her ass when everyone in Borderlands are pieces of shit or demented.
For me, lilith has always been a shit character. She literally was a crackhead in borderlands 2 and was pretty much the main reason Roland died and jack charged the key. Never liked her, and never will.
I don't like her at all but could you explain the "litterally a crackhead" statement?
@@Jessepigman69 addicted to eridium. Yes or no the first time you met Lilith and you were giving her eridium it was like giving heroin to a heroin addict.
@@Jessepigman69shawty was on that purple crack
@@Jessepigman69 addicted to eridium, you literally help her recharge her powers with chunks of it after you first meet her
@stolenheart1760 exacly. Help her recharge her powers. She uses it to steal your second winds from the bloodshot raid and to raise a whole city and phase it to the other side of Pandora. Does she use it at any other point?
Answer for BL 3 sweet baby. They change border lands. They did same for gears 5.
Mordecai should not have been on the b team, when roland died andlillith was taken by jack he quite literally stepped up to get plans to stop jack brick even planned on getting a drop barge to get into heros pass and lillith hardly plans anything and sends us to talk to anyone else for a plan
Yeah, the whole B-team idea felt pretty misguided but atleast their 3idh side quests are some of the only well written dialogue in the game.
The lava is rising.
What do you expect from these writers? Fkin' middle-school fanfic levels of storytelling. BL3 ruined the franchise. I couldn't even finish it; just did the DLC cause some of them were easily better than the entire game's main story. After that I ending up watching a friend finish it. It's all just so disappointing.
They SPECIFICALLY take characters we as gamers like(ESPECIALLY female characters) and just ruin them. The character assassination is real. Make no mistake, they do it on purpose to solidify the 'out with the old' mentality. I'm so exhausted with it all.
Hey, hey, _hey_ ! Don't do fanfic writers dirty like that! I'm a fanfic author and I've read fanfics that were 100x more coherent and put together than BL3! At least.... the writers are at Wattpad levels of fanfic writing. Mediocre and thin for fanfic standards, but horrendous for professional standards!
only now? lilith has been an arogant, irrational pos ever since the pre-sequel, where she tried to kill athena for "being responsibility for rolands death", when in reality the one responsible for his death was lilith herself, when she ignored angels explicit instruction not to go to angel's prison, distracting roland and giving handsome jack an opening to kill him and the oppurtunity to capture her. girl is willing to kill someone else, so she doesn't have to face the consequences of her own arrogance. not to mention the whole eridium addiction in 2 and appointing ava (that equally arogant, self-absorbed, non-repenting mary sue of a character) of all people as the next leader of the crimsion raiders. yeah, lilith has always been a bit of a crappy person, except for maybe the first game.
Absolutely spot on assessment. Lilith is a right royal c*nt, not the hero goddess of Pandora.
And it finally hit me why she gave control of Sanctuary and Crimson Raiders to Ava (apart from her being the head writer's OC). Ava is just Lilith 2.0. She went through the exact same "character arc" of not listening, going where she was told not to, getting someone killed, blaming it on others, and finally, gaining a leadership role.
Lilith did not distract Rolan anymore than anyone else did. He had his back turned and was giving orders to everyone.
I hate Lilith as much as anyone else, but it's hard to argue it was anyone's fault except for Handsome Jack himself.
Okay to be fair mass murdering bounty Hunter kind of describes every vault Hunter in The main games
Doesn't change the point. She ain't no hero
"we don't want the player to be a straight up murderer"
9 year old me in 2013 that had my screen filled with blood using krieg's buzzaxe all the time: yeah what he said
Gonna be honest here, i started hating lilith around a year before BL3 came out, because i started to really think about what she actually does in BL2
She doesn't do anything up until she needs to save Sanctuary, then she's praised as a hero then continues to do nothing. When Angel explicitly tells her to do exactly nothing by not coming to her chambers, she decides "Im gonna do a little trolling, hey look, bad guys".
My resentment towards her is only made worse when BL3 says that she was the one to kill Handsome Jack even though she still didn't do anything. And once again, at the end of the game she's praised a hero for her sacrifice. Though i'll admit, she deserved the praise for her sacrifice, and maybe she deserved the praise when she lifted Sanctuary, i just personally don't believe she earned that one in the slightest.
Also for someone who could teleport us back to Sanctuary from the Bunker, you'd think she'd be able to do that exact same thing, just in reverse order
edit: oh yeah, forgot to mention her involvement in the Pre Sequel.
I mean, I'd argue that, in that case, she was losing control and that was her last ditch effort to at least get someone to safety to ensure her capture didn't result in a TPK.
Also, from my recollection of things, I don't think she should be blamed for what happened to Roland, I'm pretty sure it would have happened with or without her there.
Lilith being the “Main” character drags other characters down, borderlands kind of don’t need main character, likeable playable vault hunters. Some fun, deep, helpful and/or weird side characters for aiding the story and helping the playable characters. And villain you hate and understand where you can see they were good at one point but stuff like power,influence and/or emotion breaking points cause them to become the biggest scum on pandora. I kind of want the Siren and Eridians plot line to end with 4 and maybe focus on a new cast with the only returning characters being Claptrap who no one surprisingly kills do to him siding with very forgiving people.
Not much know but in the first game, she was this arrogant woman who’d look down on the enemies and had kind of a wicked side. I like how she grew from that. Was nice. I don’t think making her the next Jack would’ve necessarily been a bad thing but if they were going to go that route they could’ve made it way better.
Talk to Lillith, time to talk to Lillith,
aboard Sanctuary 3
At the opposite end of the ship!
You mean to tell me it's Lilith's fault I have to kill bloodwing in BL2? :(
Uuuuhhh not really since that is so indirectly her fault, the blame would be practically irrelevant.
@@Cashew1405 Fair enough. I'm just permanently bitter about that as a perpetual Mordecai main in BL1.
Lilith is what’s known as “Selfishly Heroic”.
My theory is that the Vault Hunters are the villains in the story. Perhaps Joh-, er, Handsome Jack was right the whole time as the Calypso twins would never have come close to accomplishing what they did if he was able to wipe out the bandits. No bandits, no COV.
True! But even though they had the opportunity to tell that story they traded it in to make Lilith seem like this perfect person who can do no wrong.
The problem was Jack definition of bandit included the civilian population that existed before Hyperion took the planet over.
@@4thSurviver Which means you forgot about Opportunity. Jack may have been crazy but he still had a place to house people considered to be decent (even if it did sound like slavery). The issue is that comparing Jack to the next tyrants, the Calypsos, Jack was small scale in comparison and he may have gotten a glimpse of this potential future if the bandits were not wiped out
Eh, I think Jack would have gone on to be a terror in his own right if he was allowed to succeed. His definition of 'Bandit' is way too broad and he's more than willing to kill innocent people just for the crime of questioning or correcting him.
Even if the Vault Hunters are villains, Jack is no hero. If anything, he was worse.
@@LordTyph I like your point. However, your statement based on my logic would mean Jack is a demon if not the Devil himself. Following his story, I think he was a man apart and slowly spiraled after the death of his wife. He saw bandits being the causation that led to his daughter accidentally killing her mother/his wife because of the bandit break in. In his mind, all bandits were evil. It's not unlike how people form strong prejudice and become racist. His was just formed with extreme trauma and grief. Let's also not forget the story of his upbringing by his grandmother. Jack is a tale of what can happen when you keep going through trauma, you bottle it up, and you never seek therapy. But hey... I'm not saying the rest. I'm not going to have that guy looking for me. You know, name rhymes with FatCat...😏
awe a young man discovering the Mary Sue.
If you mean an angsy narcissistic rutheless goth mass murder as the mary sue, then yeah you got that right.
honestly i didnt liked her anymore since tps i mean i know i know jack was a bad guy n stuff but honestly she put the nail in the coffin of his heroic persona. also i cant stand her power flexing in 3 and idk i feel annoyed by her in a lot of ways.
I don't really blame her not finishing off Jack considering that he had Wilhelm, Nisha, & Timothy who (either through obligation or support) would have attacked her if she hadn't immediately left, not including Athena, Claptrap, & Aurelia who were all pissed at her. So she would've had to fight at least 3 Vault Hunters to finish killing him
lilith after bl2 is evil
in tps she was pretty fked up ccuz hly shit
but it just gets worse and worse
hypocricy
its also frustrating how she got an entire dlc to develop her character to be a leader and take the mantle
and in bl3 she just devolved again into a state worse then before that dlc
a dlc mind you that only exists cuz they needed to prop her up and have a way to do the calypsos instead of the actual plot we all wanted
i honestly think lilith is the sole reason jack went crazy because dont forget that artifact she destroyed alongside scarring jack was in the process of dumping info into his freaking mind having it break midway while still linked would have seriously messed up his head! also i doubt those scientists were entirely innocent
Borderlands had actual writers up to Borderlands 2. Then the DEI hires came and ruined not only her, but the entire story. It was to a less extent in the pre sequel, since the writers were just starting to get exchanged, but since bl3, it went completely downhill.
Up to the presequel, i didn't really mind. Lilith actions in BL1 and BL2 are only ethically better than Jacks, because she was on the defensive side. If in BL2, you had a chance to blow up the Helios, Lilith would 100% have ordered it in my opinon.
But yes, making her an unfailable hero is really a bit too much, when she just happened to be on the right side of the war
The crimson raiders are all murderers! Haha thats the point, borderlands isnt about good and evil its just two evil groups fighting it out for top spot.
It’s sad to say that Borderlands as a franchise has killed all interest for me with these recent releases. A lot of my love and adoration for this series came from the characters, and the sheer volume of character assassination seen in the past two games is insane.
Not to mention their weird quest to turn Lilith into the main character of the series.
Correct me if i had missed something entirely, but didn't Jack turn out the way he did because people kept betraying him? Like he was genuinely trying to be a good person. The worst thing happened when he was getting all that knowledge poured into his head and lilith attacked him and corrupted it
I mean... he was never a "good guy" even though he has thay persona in TPS and IS trying to save the moon and be a hero.. He's still enslaving his daughter and had used her to spy on and guide the first VHs to open the Vault
I always let Lilith kill handsome Jack because I didn't know he gave xp and I liked the animation of her killing him
Fair and valid
I just don't care for Borderlands as a franchise anymore, they ruined everything...
Why they can't just go with taping with eridium makes you lose empathy or some other evil crap. Also they really didn't do anything with the "I lost powers" trobe. Many ways home BL3 Story is a mess. There is like dozan good ideas that were scrapped from Story boards.
I genuinely hate Lilith's character arc; I spent so much time playing BL1 as her. She became my favorite character, and I liked how her insecurities made her a less reliable leader in 2 than Roland and how the Pre-sequel set her up to be a future villain.
The problem stems from Gearbox becoming overly pandering. I love seeing strong women in gaming, but I also want to see women in evil roles doing messed up shit because they have the potential to be just as evil as men. As soon as Anthony Birch left Gearbox, Randy got his hands on it and said, "Lilith is a woman. She can't be evil! She's the hero of the story now! This girl is on fire! She would totally watch me perform magic tricks!"
They ignored the Pre-sequel entirely as that setup is simply too dark to handwave away blaming 2K Australia. Retconning her to have always been a hero, yawn.
Lilith and Moxxi had the potential to be the best villains of Borderlands, the mask of being a hero had slipped with Athena's ordered execution. Half of the Vault Hunters may have found that they liked being heroes more than mercenaries, but others could side with Lilith saying, "I only got in this biz for the money; we're treasure hunters after all."
Lilith and Moxxi could have left the Crimson Raiders, with a few of the more money-hungry Vault Hunters like Salvador and Axton but the setup for BL3 being them returning as they report that Lilith and Moxxi have been losing their minds as they made their terror dome battle arena more vicious by kidnapping people to participate in the blood sport. Lilith, being the final challenger for anyone who made it to the last round, would always win as she would get hopped up on Eridium before a fight and atomize anyone before they won. In the pursuit of Money and Eridium, Lilith and Moxxi had made the world of Pandora a lawless wasteland of kill or be killed, proving Jack right even if his methods were too violent, Lilith was and would always be a bandit, someone who first stepped on that bus to make her fortune, someone who wouldn't help if she didn't get a cash reward or a new gun along the way.
But nope, let's make fun of streamers who are totally influential enough to get billions brainwashed while the Hero Lilith just let them build up a big ass army and doesn't have enough of a backbone to stand up to a literal 12-year-old. Borderlands is dead to me; as far as I'm concerned, the studio exploded after the Pre-sequel, and we as a community were left on a cliffhanger that would never get resolved.
No you hate the fact that gear box has gone full character assassination on on the entire borderlands franchise
I like that Lilith turns on you and Jack at the end of Pre Sequel and just how bloodthirsty she is in the hostage scenes, I guees you could call them.
It really shows you a different perspective and a view on how Lilith treats jer enemies, which is in line with her beign a playable Borderlands character.
Like, think, if you were playing as Lilith in that moment and were given the choice ro kill Athena, and instead of playing througj the Pre Sequel, you just heard about it, wouldn't you want ti kill the person wjo helped the person who killed off a former playable character?
I feel like most would just shoot Athena themsevles. Am I wrong?
Thanks algorithm for recommending me a game that ive heard of once and never ever played it, thanks.
Apriciate the comment anyways my man!
I remember reading a thread somewhere that says they believe Lilith will be the bad guy in Borderlands 4, since she got Tyreen's powers as well as her own when Tyreen died. Tyreen was the newest seventh siren since the original seventh siren was locked in Nekrotafeyo's vault so her powers couldn't be passed on until Tyreen was conceived, while all of the legends about sirens claimed there were always and only six. The seventh's powers make them power hungry, and as powerful as Lilith was, now with Tyreen's strength from absorbing the vault beasts she would be unstoppable and still hungry.
I would 100% give gearbox a mulligan and let them remake BL3 with the original intended story.
Lilith in the pre-sequel ends up justifying Jack's view of anyone living on Pandora: everyone is a bandit (and he is right about it FFS)
i'm glad that not everyone on the internet is deepthroating the pre-sequel's story because i, for one, started hating the characters from that same game
The only Borderlands game I like is Tales From the Borderlands, and even in that game I chose the evil ending by destroying Hyperion and reverting humanity back to the Stone Ages, so I agree with you completely that Handsome Jack is in fact the best character in the franchise, and it's a shame he was killed off for a bratty Mary-Sue.
Don't you know? If you scream about lava for 5 minutes, you're a true hero
This is true, she didn't warn Salvador about the Lava the 9th time he would've been a goner fr fr
If the writing wasnt what it was theyd have sent literally anyone other than Lilith, Maya and Ava after the twins whose powers are ABSORBING SIREN POWERS.
Too bad Brick and Mordecai are too busy... checks notes* going to a birthday party..... Also what a shame Salvador and Axton were too busy.... being poor?
i only played Borderlands 2 and 3, liked lilith in 2, the Dlc for Jack´s backstory i loved because i love it when both sides are just two evils, and the good in both is explored.
With this, it was a perfect route to make Lillith either the next villain, or replace Maya´s part which would have made way more, or better sense.
Like here; you start out with Maya being the new boss around sanctuary, you get the reason later because Lilith, after Athena´s whole execution thing actually confronted and regretted all her decision, realizing her part in eventually killing Roland, among the Chaos with it, and she chose to become the passive monk, and eventual tutor for Ava she became.
With this, her semi-sacrifice would feel a lot less random and "feminizing" i´ll call it. And Ava being mad at her tutor could be started by learning that she wasn´t the good and peacefull person she made herself to be.
I mean i am still mad about killing off maya, like i feel like i´m the only one who enjoyed that shitty montage, i thought that was a peak joke, but ey you can´t have everything.
The way the main antagonist went out btw... Felt really lame. Like the Calypso´s at the end... it could have been a lot more interesting, but it felt like they just lost whatever passion they had midway, and just said yeah let´s just finish it.
And also; yeah the fuck, why is Lilith getting the credit for everything? it really felt like they just wanted to make her artificially great to make her "struggle" of loosing her powers, and sacrificing herself feel bigger, when she already had enough credit and love from borderlands 2.
3 could have been a great arc for her, even if they did a cop-out and save her in 4, would have been just a better journey.
I'm quite happy to see someone say why they hate Lilith and critique her character. She is absolutely my least favorite character in the entire franchise, and it's largely for the same reason that you state: the later games put Lilith up on a pedestal and hail her as a hero; when more like Lilith is no better than any other character within the franchise. Something that I love about Borderlands and its characters is its twisted sense of morality, like how good things can come from bad actions or good intentions can bring about bad actions ("the road to hell is paved with good intentions"). It can be complicated to fully judge a character as a "villain" or "hero" because everyone is a little fucked up and morally ambiguous in this universe. Putting Lilith in such a high esteem defeats this core aspect of Borderlands and its characters and its universe to me, and that has always bothered me. I honestly want to compare what Gearbox is doing to Lilith to how a large portion of the fanbase believes that Handsome Jack is actually a hero. I think the argument that Handsome Jack is actually the hero is bull and does a large disservice to the complexity of his character, and frankly Gearbox making Lilith a hero seems like the exact same problem to me. Don't mistake what I'm saying, for clarity I'm not saying that Lilith is a tyrannical megalomaniac like Handsome Jack, but she isn't a total saint either. Writing her as one takes away a lot of possible nuance for her character. I have to say that it also doesn't help that the way in which Gearbox likes to idolize Lilith is very forced. I really feel like an essential aspect of Borderlands' character writing and spirit was lost when Lilith was written to be the main protagonist.
Couldn't of said it better myself. I was really hoping that Lilith would go on a villan ark after TPS. It made so much sense and would've been so interesting. Sadly we got the opposite.
@@Cashew1405 You got Evil Lilith in the Fantastic Fustercluck lmao I'm just kidding, but I can agree. Despite the criticisms with how Lilith was written in TPS, it really would've been more interesting to see her continue down that path of revenge that she was on in the present-day cutscenes of TPS. Combine her revenge with her desperately avoiding / trying to fill Roland's shoes, and with good character conflict and introspection unfolding within a story, it might would make anything "heroic" that she would do more meaningful. It would feel less forced and more earned with proper development.
The characters in BL3 are hideous, RIP gearbox after this.
Always did, especially after what she did to Jack
I love the gameplay of BL3, but the way it disrespects almost every character genuinely hurts so much I’ve never finished it
I'm personally fine with Lilith killing Jack in B2. What's confusing is that B3 literally tells us two different stories - Ava says Lilith killed Jack (presumably learned from Maya after Maya watched Jack die) but then in DLC1 Moxxi says Jack "met the business end of a vault hunter". It's clear that Moxxi isn't talking about Lilith, as the player is already familiar with Lilith bc she's one of the very first people you meet in B3. Why would she ever refer to Lilith as "vault hunter" and not "Lilith"? This is just another on the long list of examples of B3 writers losing their grip of the canon.
He preaches nothing but truth!
Borderlands lore is dead im the water thanks to BL3. Genuinely, I have no hope that I'll ever enjoy a new Borderlands game
BL 1 = good, BL 2 = GOAT everything else down hill trash fire .
I remember someone else pointing out that the inaccuracies between games COULD BE due to the fact that each game is told via the perspective of different people at the start
Marcus narrates BL1 to an orphan
Athena narrates Pre Sequel to Tony Tina, Pickle, Brick and Mordecai
BL2 is narrated by the orphan (to Marcus)
..... I still haven't played BL3 yet
But yeah, that's the theory that comforts me whenever I get upset about each game just entirely losing the plot from one to the other
Beloved Bodderlands character Tony out here fixing the narrative frfr
But really though, I've never liked the idea of the narrator of the story being unreliable in any way. It makes everything you did not matter since it can be taken away in an instant. Happy that it helps you hate the games less tho lmao
@@Cashew1405 I find blaming the "narrator" easier to deal with than blaming Gearbox for being shitty writers haha
I love Lilith, but the pre-quel and BL3 did her dirty. They took her from a cool mercenary with special powers to someone thrust into the role of leader when she wasn't ready and for the sake of plot, the took away her abilities at the start of BL3, only to give them back near the end, just so she could sacrifice herself to save Pandora. Pandora was not worth saving and Ava isn't worthy of being a siren. I'm in no hurry for a BL4 cause cause I've already played their DLCs and I'm not interested in the endgame content they have.
To be fair Jack going downhill is somewhat seperate besides lilith, as we've seen him deal the entire people of pandora or anyone who refuses to live like he 'says' or 'wants' to be killed. Jack is almost like the pinkertons in a way, the death of a wild west planet of lawlessness and madness- using 'his power' to reign in the chaos --- but it doesn't mean he suddenly has a right or mandate to do so. We also see Jack can be incredibly petty and cruel as well so he was a villain regardless of sanctuary but also it's somewhat clearly shown even regardless of lilith in the pre-sequels Jack was going down a power hungry egotistical path.
But you make a good point about Lilith in most cases, but I think the death of one of borderlands best characters is what ultimately changed lilith from her clear downward spiral as roland himself could see Lilith doing so and didn't want that for her, he was not power hungry like Jack AND lilith herself were, he was not greedy and self interested. He was selfless and responsible, and that trait carried over to lilith in a way she could honor and show her love for him, and that is something I can understand and respect.
While I agree that they really could have handled her better a lot of things can be inferred. Such as the attempted execution of Athena. Being in a leadership role after someone she cared about dying and being forced to help someone she hates brings a lot of stress and trauma. So we can at least some of that is affecting her decision making, and unlike Roland, she was care free and irresponsible, which, if I remember correctly, was a point of tension and disagreement in there relationship. There was a rather large gap of time between the second and third game and she likely grew into the leader she was in the third game, but a big problem with that is, we didn't get to see any of it, unless you you count the battle for sanctuary dlc and even then it's argueable. From carefree to making sure Roland's legacy is taken care of without seeing any of the development that makes her a good leader. It's unfortunate but true.
Now that I've thought about it a bit more, when it comes to the choice to make Lilith the one that kills Jack the reason why they did that was that it was the way they wanted to go forward as a revenge story, while in game Canon, it would be a huge boost to the crimson lance and it's new leader, Lilith, and from what can be relatively inferred from the third game the player characters from 2 didn't really care enough to seek fame for it. Especially since it seems the only ones in contact with the Crimson Lance, relatively anyway, is Maya, Krieg, Zero, and the mechromancer (can't remember her name), with the others only heard and/or talked about in echo recordings.
But even that is extremely contradictory to the characterisation of bl2 Vault hunters. Axton was all about the fame and Glory, to an extent, so was Sal. Lilith being the one that killed handsome jack could've fueled a "revenge is never the right answer" story or a "struggling to do the right thing" story, but bl3 does none of that, so it feels pointless to take it away from the player.
Cheers for the comments tho :))
Under mordecai leandership we reached and defeated jack.
And i will say it Éva was right when he scoolded Lilith.
Change my mind!
Welcome to the club Cashew.
The Council has been waiting for you since the start of your Borderlands career.
Personally I almost want them to lean into the whole "Everyone keeps forgiving Lilith too much" to the point where she is actively becoming a villain. She already basically has a hero complex, might as well pull a hero-to-villain arc
They should've done that for bl3's story if they were going to do it. In bl4 she's most likely gonna be chilling in moon dimension for the vast majority of the game
I think I’ve given up on this franchise because gearbox can’t be consistent with whatever direction it is that they’re trying to take it in. The movie makes it painstakingly clear that they’re continuing in that decision making even more, but at full throttle.