Isn't it more than a reholder issue? Since this issue broke, I have seen several videos of collector prying open slabs and then resealing them with some kind of adhesive. Any unscrupulous person, with some practice, apparently can swap out books and commit fraud to an unsuspecting collector or dealer. I strongly support 3rd party grading for the reasons you cited but I also find it insane that a $3M Action Comics #1 is slabbed with the same slab design and material as a $10 modern. Perhaps, for expensive books, CGC should have an escalating, technical sophistication used in slabbing? Yes, higher cost but I am sure anyone who can afford to purchase an expensive grail, would be more than willing to pay. The inexpensive books can continue to use the current, cheap slab.
CGC has been pushing the reholdering process since their inception by telling us that after a few years the microchamber paper would need changed. My suspicious side told me back then that they wanted return business on every book they encapsulated. --Basically like a Utility company. Every book would need reholdered just to maintain its condition forever. They have encouraged reholdering so you would think that they would also encourage the employees that deal with the process to watch for discrepancies. Well, after all this time they've decided to photograph the books in process for better identification. --FINALLY!! Well with the price hikes of the past couple years you'd think that would have been affodable for them a while back. Besides the fact that it would have helped them protect themselves. My point is that they should have been way more proactive, rather than reactive. Now they'll have to make changes. But not to worry, they'll pass the extra costs onto us with more price increases again! Hey, I'm not being cynical, just realistic! CGC needs to stay ahead of the curve with more innovation or the scammers will find more ways to hurt the hobby.
A old art collector that i worked with told me something that stuck with me. It doesn't matter how reputable a person or company is. If you didnt witness or werent part of the process. Your just choosing to believe something is true.
Thank you so much for bringing awareness to this situation and identifying a few important examples of the scam. One key thing that's missing from CGC's response: What if anything are they going to do to prevent this reholdering scam from reoccurring? That to me is even more important than identifying the affected books and compensating buyers.
I find it interesting that CGC said “the trust that we have built with our community sometimes makes us a target of bad actors.” So, it looks like they are blaming the trust that “they have built” as the problem; not the flaws that have been exposed with their reholdering and relabeling services. If they cared more about their customers and the integrity of their product than they cared about all of that easy reslabbing and relabeling money, these incidents would not have ever occurred.
@@melw2100 Would you mind explaining the logic behind miking that comparison? Maybe what you meant to say was, “That’s like saying the U.S. Mint is responsible for counterfeiting if, you know, the mint had the counterfeit money in their possession, certified and guaranteed it’s authenticity, polished it up real nice and then redistributed it to the public.”
Re-holdering obfuscates the real problem that ALL Slabs are now suspect. They didn't need to be re-holdered to be swapped out. Imagine an assembly line of slabs being opened with a heat gun and resealed this way and systematically swapping in lower grades into the holders and submitting the raw book for regrading. Every book ever graded is now in question. We all have wasted our money on slabbed books to this point. The label must be sealed inside the inner seal. That is a million slabs that could have been opened and swapped and no one can tell? This is the end of slabs until the holder is TRULY TAMPER PROOF. We have all been deceived that the slabs were tamper proof. I'm an idiot for believing it.
Your comments are well received, diplomatic, and nicely said. Ive been collecting books since 8 years old. Im now 67. So, 59 years. I dont worry about those that are well versed in book grading like you or me. But a newbie or someone even of middle knowledge, how would you know "buy the book not the grade if you cant grade. And within here is the problem. People at that stage are totally helpless regarding total dependence on what the slab grade says. Even we dont know whats in the slab but we can at least see the outside of the book. What appears to be absolutely laughable is that CGC has been around for how many years now and only at only at this point do we have complaints of a slab that basically can be opened by a 14 year old. Only now, in almost 2024 we are saying the slab has been tampered with? Laughable!!!! Its super easy. There is no Genius technique involved in taking the book out of the slab and replacing it. Lets see, one takes a heat gun, heats the corner, prys the slot open with a thin tool and pulls out the comic. Never has happened before in all these years? Like I said, after practicing on a few books Im sure this could be done regularly by a child, much less an adult. One does not have to have a doctorate in chemistry or engineering to open, pull book, reglue and close slab. Should one not be weary that this could have been going on for a VERY VERY long time??? How could it not, as its so EASY to do! Nothing more to see here! Sorry, but there is everything to see here at this point. The CGC slabs have obviously been Entirely compromised! Here is a question to ask oneself: Knowing how easy it is to get the book out of the slab and replace it, can you really be confident about the millions that have been slabbed. A 14 year old could make a business out of cracking out and replacing the books as the slab really is not tamper proof even for a novice. All of those slabbed books are suspect now simple because the product was not tamper proof! It cannot slip by and corrected unless all books from start of CGC are now reslabbed in a totally tamper proof slab. All books before the correction are now ALL suspect. All are suspect especially for a novice that is dependant on the grade on the slab and knows no better in knowledge. If you dont agree, please feel and comment otherwise.
My thought on that is that most things like this seem easy once someone shows you how to do it. The fact that just about no one thought about that until now, to me shows that it wasn’t an obvious tactic.
I think cgc is going to have to look at themselves and seriously change the way they do things. The person who did this got cgc to participate unknowingly. To help prevent this from happening in the future, serial numbering the holders and inner wells is the first thing that comes to mind. If those don't match the label, something weird is going on and the book is highly suspect.
Thanks for the follow-up and thanks much more for your investigative work on the CGC tampering crisis. I have many thoughts on this subject but will limit myself to two… First, if the scammer was able to open up a CGC case, switch the comic and then re-seal the case professionally enough that it doesn’t set off alarm bells for CGC employees, isn’t it likely that the scammer sold some switched-out slabs directly to collectors and dealers, without going through the reholdering process? Two, if the scammer was able to open and re-seal cases, is it possible he switched comics AFTER the reholdering? Is it possible CGC will take the position that any of the comics associated with this scammer were switched after reholdering?
You say you have confidence in slabs, but this scam proves there is no certainty in authenticated slabs when buying from other people because there are probably dozens of scammers and thousands of falsely labelled books circulating right now.
There should be a new policy of *ALL* reholders to be subject to re-grades/revaluations. Doesn't seem to have happened (my speculation) in this case else those type of switch likely would've been prevented.
There are always going to be scams out there. It’s inevitable when money is involved. But I also think it’s likely a very small percentage. Like has been discussed in other videos, there are definitely specific books you should be more cautious with though. Those high census count bronze to modern books are now riskier.
Even if those assumptions are factual, "thousands" of bad books in circulation would be a drop in the bucket relative to the overall number of slabbed books out there, so the probability that you would actually buy one is incredibly small.
Funny, CGC does not guarantee really anything like grades or restoration. Why grade books through CGC? The issue at hand is that during re-holder they probably didn’t have two people inspect the book ensuring the book was authentic.They need to get rid of the re-holder process. What do you think?
They are going to have to share the tamper prevention checks unless they are going to be a clearing house for all sales. I'm not sure we, the community, want to pay even more for these books.
The big problem, which will be an ongoing issue, is that their cases can be opened with only minor signs of wear. The method has now been shared with everyone. Even if CGC installs processes to ensure they no longer reholder books that are different from the original submission, scammers will just swap out books without reholdering. It really sucks
@AutomaticComics nah. More info is better for everyone. If someone is of the mindset to commit fraud then they would discover these techniques without someone else demonstrating them. It's not like it is a complicated concept to figure out.
@@300baud we’re just going to have to disagree then. People are acting like this is some kind of quick fix. It’s not. And even if someone else could figure it out on their own, what value is there in making it easier for them? Providing step by step instructions. I’m just not of the opinion that this was smart to share. I think it was very short sighted.
@@AutomaticComics Step-by-step instructions? Use heat gun. Be careful. That's it. Anyone with criminal intent could have already figured that out. If CGC was aware that their cases could be compromised this easy then that is 100% on them, and if they weren't, well then, they better be fixin' that now.
DO name the scammer. back when I collected, I bought several books from an infamous restorer, although he didn't say that they were restored. he would put ads in cgc with all super high grade books. I spent (and lost) money. thanks Daniel dupcak, you scumbag.
Hold on, isnt there an intrinsic issue here with CGC quality assurance and their inability to detect slab tampering (over hundreds of books)? If not, then at the least, there is clearly a massive problem with their slabs! Unless the culprit is a CGC employee (who had access to the books prior to the book going into the holder) then the slab design is clearly sub par. We should be discussing this more, not less. Am I going crazy lol?
Less the slabs (though I'd imagine no system is perfect) & more the lax policy regarding "reholders" (comic in inner sleeve not always re-checked). imho.
I agree it needs to be talked about. But I also don’t want to create a video just for the sake of creating one. But when there’s new info like this, I think it’s worthwhile to report on.
What I want to see come out of this is actual standards and practices across the industry that all companies have to follow. I've already had some argue against it, and I am like "the lack of these is what got us here!"
They are going to need an anti-tamper seal (perhaps seals) that cross the seam of the case itself. A unique number matching the label might also help. The one they have on the label is pretty but does no good. The seal has to be destroyed when the case is opened. Unless someone can tell me in some instances that seal is destroyed. I've never opened a case, so I can not confirm that.
Feel the most important thing is the perpetrator(s) face the full extent/consequences of the law. This should prevent many from attempting fraud in the future.
I agree. That would hopefully serve as somewhat of a deterrent. However, people go to jail for robbing banks and they still do it. Some people will still do this despite the consequences because there’s a financial gain to it.
Ryan, I noticed that you seem affected by other people's posts in this video. I saw Sticky Goose giving you a hard time. Goose has some issues that he needs to work through. Don't take his harshness seriously. You did an awesome job in your part of unmasking this scammer. The entire comic collecting community owes you massive heaps of gratitude.
Personally I can’t stand graded books. But there is a simple solution to this…. I don’t buy them!! But that doesn’t mean someone else can’t collect graded books! Collect how you want!
Ryan, Thank you for your very informative videos which helped the collecting community understand the scam that was going on. You have provided an invaluable service to comic collectors. As you mention in you video, there are people who don't like CGC and graded comics, so theyll seize on this and use it to trash graded comics, which I feel are here to stay. Kudos to CGC for its response, and I think CGC should aggressively take legal action against the scammers who are commiting fraud with its holders. They should go to jail for mail fraud and wire fraud.
What about lazer etching a qr code or serial number on the laminating that surround the comic and on the hard case. Make them matching codes that way each comic that is sealed matches the case its sealed in. Like a cars serial # to the registration or engine block. That seems like a simple fix moving forward...🤔
The fact that there were no red flags raised by an abnormally high number of reholdering requests suggests that CGC was asleep at the wheel. If you're running a secure operation, that should be something you're aware of. Alternately, it could be they WERE aware of it and chose to look the other way because it hadn't blown up in their face yet. Which would be worse.
I'm very curious to see what they do for all the existing slabs out there, especially if they get rid of the reholder program. There's already a big backlog, imagine adding millions more books for regrade. And all the fees for Walkthroughs 🤑🤑🤑
I understand youd thinking on not wanting them to show what has changed. But I look at it like this, either way bad actors will attempt again and we the buyers/collectors don't know what's new or what's to look for to protect ourselves. I honestly think we need to know
I’m sure breaking into their cases is coming next. Another video showing breaking into the cbcs case was just released. I’m honestly shocked he doesn’t see the impact of what he’s doing.
People should think twice about buying a slabbed book in the next few months. To me there is a diminishing reward to risk ratio choosing slabbed over raw. Less and less reward and guarantees, more and more risk. If I know what I’m doing and can get a vastly better price on a raw book I really don’t see any benefit to buying slabs now. Nb: I’m not religiously against slabs. I own a few, I just see less and less benefit to them.
CGC’s response is standard PR stuff. An initial PR response is never enough to restore the faith, trust, and goodwill they have lost. It’s what happens next and the transparency by which it is communicated that will matter more. Also, how they compensate those buyers who have legitimate claims will be telling. Good (but expected) first step. But words are cheap. I want to see the concrete actions they are taking to improve their system of quality control and to go after and prosecute the alleged offender.
True, and I just read the Willy Wonka level fine print on the back of a CGC case I own from the 1xxxxxxxxxxx series, and found this ". . .the grade is not guaranteed ". I don't understand why it's a private investigator unless they are seeking to indemnify themselves internally. Back to fine print, it is NOT on the newer books at all, but the fine print is heavy.
He’s new =). My brother just got me that and the little stuffed Pochita for Christmas. 🎄 Pochita is hard to see. Behind my right shoulder. I may have to move that to the top shelf or something.
I don’t think anyone would have an issue with 3rd party grading if it was merely to validate a grade and protect the collectible. But the chase for 9.8s and inflated prices pushed by TH-camrs and resellers has made it a volatile hobby. They’ve replaced collectors with investors and the more money is involved the greater the opening for scammers and shady business practices. Sadly there’s too many people who have already invested too much. CGC could be found guilty of child labor and people would still continue to submit and make excuses for why it’s necessary for the hobby.
I commende your research and like the how to videos; they are pieces of the puzzle that would be warnings signs. The reholder process is the weak link and the physical swap isn’t the only step. In the hack, I have to conclude. I think they are exploiting the reholder/ custom labels and the fact that they are probably not graders in these steps and work in isolated processes. My job is all about workflow and this one is full of gaps
I always assumed it did. The reason being that they’re supposed to change the chamber paper they put inside the book when you get it reholdered. So in theory they should be opening all of them up.
Good point on the Data calls, I am sure they could write a DB script to find anomalies such as highest percentage reholder person(s). or maybe highest percent but lowest actual submissions. Maybe these guys stick out like a sore thumb, never actually grading a book for the first time but...always reholdering. hmm. reholdering is not a word.
Lol, yeah, Apple always tries to autocorrect when I type reholder 😂. But yes, some type of big data analysis of their submissions I’m sure would reveal some interesting results.
Did not need that much time defending CGC. Also, the idea that this is one individual, that no one else has figured out how to do this is crazy. I have thought for a while that at some point figuring out how to break a slab without detection would not be an impossible endeavor. If CGC had better consistency and accountability for their grades this would be more difficult to do. It should be more clear what is a 9.8 and what is a 9.6. CGC can do better - and if that’s not the main message then you are missing the point.
Pretty sure I wasn’t defending CGC in this video. I defended third party grading. I think it’s a valuable service and the positives of it need to be described as well since there are many comments criticizing as well with no actual reason behind that criticism. Also, a 9.6 and a 9.8 are always going to be close. You can’t get away from that. You’re talking about very small flaws on the books.
@AutomaticComics Maybe we are all fooling ourselves and should never have started using 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8. What the hell, why not 9.1, 9.3, 9.5,9.7? There is a 9.9 is there not?. At least if there are going to be these grades, step up and actually define the differences, not just a graders whim.
@@AutomaticComics I have thought about it like this in the past when considering the potential 'closeness' of certain grades. A 9.6 could have potentially been a 9.69 book that was rounded down by the grader (if there was any way to be that specific) and a 9.8 book could have been a 9.71 that was rounded up. That is theoretically how close a 9.6 and a 9.8 book could be and why those results could vary by the day and the grader for certain books.
@user-tl3lq6uk4o for sure. That’s why many books you could call a strong 8.0/weak 8.5 for example. Sometimes they’re right in the middle and resubmissions can get you either the upper or lower end. It’s not anything wrong with grading in itself, it’s just the nature of how it works. There are definitely weak 9.8s out there that you would never want to resubmit out of the risk of it getting a 9.6. Those are the books you don’t send in for signatures because the risk is high that it’ll drop in grade.
I'm perfectly fine with married pages, covers, posters, tattoos or whatever. It should be an acceptable form, of restoration, if done correctly. It's completely accepted in other collectable hobbies. There's nothing wrong with taking 2 broken vintage toys and making them 1 good toy or car, bike or whatever. Why should it be wrong in comics???
No ones saying it’s wrong in comics. What’s wrong is switching out a book that has married pages with a book that doesn’t and misrepresenting what it is to sell the book for more. In those other hobbies, non original parts also lower the value. Restored items have lower value than all original. That’s the problem.
@@AutomaticComics aftermarket parts, lower the value. Original parts from another vintage original item, will still be considered original. There are entire economies built around selling original parts. Yes, switching books out of cases is wrong, fraud actually and completely different. A car that's been completely restored with original parts, can go for hundreds of thousands of dollars, the same care unrestored, a couple $1000 at most.
I do not fully agree with you. I think the first line saying that they are aware of a person committing. This fraud is perfectly OK. The truth is they are only aware of the one while there may be others. They are not presently aware of that therefore, their statement is dead on accurate. One should not fault them for sayingfax in hand and not speculating. Speculation is also a problem.
TBH: No change for being a CGC customer. I did pause anymore submissions until something came from CGC in protest!! (Even if was just me, it was the principal) I have hundreds of books to get graded and normally send in 15-50 a month mainly “vintage” but it’s always a balancing act on cash flow… Great job with all the back-end work you did for our community! Serious props are needed from everyone to you! Have a great new year ahead!
Appreciate it, thanks. There are a lot of people that have helped expose this guy. As for submissions, I have a little backlog as well. I’m tempted to wait and see if they update their case. If they do, I’d rather have whatever updated/fixed case they use.
You did an exemplary job researching the source of comic switched. 👏 We are fortunate to have you on TH-cam.
Appreciate it, thanks 👍
Isn't it more than a reholder issue? Since this issue broke, I have seen several videos of collector prying open slabs and then resealing them with some kind of adhesive. Any unscrupulous person, with some practice, apparently can swap out books and commit fraud to an unsuspecting collector or dealer. I strongly support 3rd party grading for the reasons you cited but I also find it insane that a $3M Action Comics #1 is slabbed with the same slab design and material as a $10 modern. Perhaps, for expensive books, CGC should have an escalating, technical sophistication used in slabbing? Yes, higher cost but I am sure anyone who can afford to purchase an expensive grail, would be more than willing to pay. The inexpensive books can continue to use the current, cheap slab.
CGC has been pushing the reholdering process since their inception by telling us that after a few years the microchamber paper would need changed. My suspicious side told me back then that they wanted return business on every book they encapsulated. --Basically like a Utility company. Every book would need reholdered just to maintain its condition forever. They have encouraged reholdering so you would think that they would also encourage the employees that deal with the process to watch for discrepancies. Well, after all this time they've decided to photograph the books in process for better identification. --FINALLY!! Well with the price hikes of the past couple years you'd think that would have been affodable for them a while back. Besides the fact that it would have helped them protect themselves. My point is that they should have been way more proactive, rather than reactive. Now they'll have to make changes. But not to worry, they'll pass the extra costs onto us with more price increases again! Hey, I'm not being cynical, just realistic! CGC needs to stay ahead of the curve with more innovation or the scammers will find more ways to hurt the hobby.
A old art collector that i worked with told me something that stuck with me. It doesn't matter how reputable a person or company is. If you didnt witness or werent part of the process. Your just choosing to believe something is true.
Thank you so much for bringing awareness to this situation and identifying a few important examples of the scam. One key thing that's missing from CGC's response: What if anything are they going to do to prevent this reholdering scam from reoccurring? That to me is even more important than identifying the affected books and compensating buyers.
I find it interesting that CGC said “the trust that we have built with our community sometimes makes us a target of bad actors.” So, it looks like they are blaming the trust that “they have built” as the problem; not the flaws that have been exposed with their reholdering and relabeling services.
If they cared more about their customers and the integrity of their product than they cared about all of that easy reslabbing and relabeling money, these incidents would not have ever occurred.
That is like saying that the US Mint is responsible for counterfeiting. I will send my books to CGC.
@@melw2100 Would you mind explaining the logic behind miking that comparison? Maybe what you meant to say was, “That’s like saying the U.S. Mint is responsible for counterfeiting if, you know, the mint had the counterfeit money in their possession, certified and guaranteed it’s authenticity, polished it up real nice and then redistributed it to the public.”
@@melw2100 Also, it’s fine if people want to keep sending their books there. I wasn’t saying that people shouldn’t.
Re-holdering obfuscates the real problem that ALL Slabs are now suspect. They didn't need to be re-holdered to be swapped out. Imagine an assembly line of slabs being opened with a heat gun and resealed this way and systematically swapping in lower grades into the holders and submitting the raw book for regrading. Every book ever graded is now in question. We all have wasted our money on slabbed books to this point. The label must be sealed inside the inner seal. That is a million slabs that could have been opened and swapped and no one can tell? This is the end of slabs until the holder is TRULY TAMPER PROOF. We have all been deceived that the slabs were tamper proof. I'm an idiot for believing it.
Interesting point. That is true.
all slabbed comics are now questionable seeing recent development on how these slabs are opened that easily
Your comments are well received, diplomatic, and nicely said. Ive been collecting books since 8 years old. Im now 67. So, 59 years. I dont worry about those that are well versed in book grading like you or me. But a newbie or someone even of middle knowledge, how would you know "buy the book not the grade if you cant grade. And within here is the problem. People at that stage are totally helpless regarding total dependence on what the slab grade says. Even we dont know whats in the slab but we can at least see the outside of the book. What appears to be absolutely laughable is that CGC has been around for how many years now and only at only at this point do we have complaints of a slab that basically can be opened by a 14 year old. Only now, in almost 2024 we are saying the slab has been tampered with? Laughable!!!! Its super easy. There is no Genius technique involved in taking the book out of the slab and replacing it. Lets see, one takes a heat gun, heats the corner, prys the slot open with a thin tool and pulls out the comic. Never has happened before in all these years? Like I said, after practicing on a few books Im sure this could be done regularly by a child, much less an adult. One does not have to have a doctorate in chemistry or engineering to open, pull book, reglue and close slab. Should one not be weary that this could have been going on for a VERY VERY long time??? How could it not, as its so EASY to do! Nothing more to see here! Sorry, but there is everything to see here at this point. The CGC slabs have obviously been Entirely compromised! Here is a question to ask oneself: Knowing how easy it is to get the book out of the slab and replace it, can you really be confident about the millions that have been slabbed. A 14 year old could make a business out of cracking out and replacing the books as the slab really is not tamper proof even for a novice. All of those slabbed books are suspect now simple because the product was not tamper proof! It cannot slip by and corrected unless all books from start of CGC are now reslabbed in a totally tamper proof slab. All books before the correction are now ALL suspect. All are suspect especially for a novice that is dependant on the grade on the slab and knows no better in knowledge. If you dont agree, please feel and comment otherwise.
My thought on that is that most things like this seem easy once someone shows you how to do it. The fact that just about no one thought about that until now, to me shows that it wasn’t an obvious tactic.
The only way to avoid any fraud would be to attach a cert in some form to the book, and no-one wants that.
I think cgc is going to have to look at themselves and seriously change the way they do things. The person who did this got cgc to participate unknowingly. To help prevent this from happening in the future, serial numbering the holders and inner wells is the first thing that comes to mind. If those don't match the label, something weird is going on and the book is highly suspect.
what a joke. CGC didn't catch the problems, therefore didn't do their job. the G stands for guarantee. which is nothing they provided.
Hundreds? The number of reholders is the number of suspect books. I don't know but I think hundreds is a low estimate.
I have no idea what the real number is. Hopefully this eventual list gives us a better idea.
Conservative estimate cause thousands sounds worst
9900 (ninety-nine hundred) is still in the “hundreds.” 😃
Great video, Ryan. Excellent coverage of this important topic. Kudos to you, Mickey, Manu, Dave, et al.
Good job Ryan. The scammer (or scammers) should be named and shamed. Not just EBay named but real names.
Hopefully, we'll eventually see court case US vs John Doe (apologies to any real John Doe out there).
Thanks for the follow-up and thanks much more for your investigative work on the CGC tampering crisis.
I have many thoughts on this subject but will limit myself to two…
First, if the scammer was able to open up a CGC case, switch the comic and then re-seal the case professionally enough that it doesn’t set off alarm bells for CGC employees, isn’t it likely that the scammer sold some switched-out slabs directly to collectors and dealers, without going through the reholdering process?
Two, if the scammer was able to open and re-seal cases, is it possible he switched comics AFTER the reholdering? Is it possible CGC will take the position that any of the comics associated with this scammer were switched after reholdering?
Remember, anyone doing this has used the US mail, perhaps. I'm not sure US laws have been upgraded to include fraud via other mailing services.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Glad CGC gave everyone a response and the confidense to contine with them.
You say you have confidence in slabs, but this scam proves there is no certainty in authenticated slabs when buying from other people because there are probably dozens of scammers and thousands of falsely labelled books circulating right now.
There should be a new policy of *ALL* reholders to be subject to re-grades/revaluations. Doesn't seem to have happened (my speculation) in this case else those type of switch likely would've been prevented.
There are always going to be scams out there. It’s inevitable when money is involved. But I also think it’s likely a very small percentage.
Like has been discussed in other videos, there are definitely specific books you should be more cautious with though. Those high census count bronze to modern books are now riskier.
It’s the question of, would the grader be made aware that it was a reholder, and what that original grade is. That could sway their grading.
Even if those assumptions are factual, "thousands" of bad books in circulation would be a drop in the bucket relative to the overall number of slabbed books out there, so the probability that you would actually buy one is incredibly small.
Funny, CGC does not guarantee really anything like grades or restoration. Why grade books through CGC? The issue at hand is that during re-holder they probably didn’t have two people inspect the book ensuring the book was authentic.They need to get rid of the re-holder process. What do you think?
Merry Christmas! An thanks for all you do! You are the uncredited comic content creator of the year again!
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it. Thanks for your continued support of the channel 👍👍. Merry Christmas to you too 🎄
They are going to have to share the tamper prevention checks unless they are going to be a clearing house for all sales. I'm not sure we, the community, want to pay even more for these books.
The big problem, which will be an ongoing issue, is that their cases can be opened with only minor signs of wear. The method has now been shared with everyone. Even if CGC installs processes to ensure they no longer reholder books that are different from the original submission, scammers will just swap out books without reholdering. It really sucks
Yeah, I think it was a huge huge mistake for that guy to post that video.
“Here’s a step by step guide to commit crimes!”
@AutomaticComics nah. More info is better for everyone. If someone is of the mindset to commit fraud then they would discover these techniques without someone else demonstrating them. It's not like it is a complicated concept to figure out.
@@300baud we’re just going to have to disagree then. People are acting like this is some kind of quick fix. It’s not. And even if someone else could figure it out on their own, what value is there in making it easier for them? Providing step by step instructions.
I’m just not of the opinion that this was smart to share. I think it was very short sighted.
@@AutomaticComics Step-by-step instructions? Use heat gun. Be careful. That's it. Anyone with criminal intent could have already figured that out. If CGC was aware that their cases could be compromised this easy then that is 100% on them, and if they weren't, well then, they better be fixin' that now.
DO name the scammer.
back when I collected, I bought several books from an infamous restorer, although he didn't say that they were restored. he would put ads in cgc with all super high grade books. I spent (and lost) money.
thanks Daniel dupcak, you scumbag.
Hold on, isnt there an intrinsic issue here with CGC quality assurance and their inability to detect slab tampering (over hundreds of books)? If not, then at the least, there is clearly a massive problem with their slabs! Unless the culprit is a CGC employee (who had access to the books prior to the book going into the holder) then the slab design is clearly sub par. We should be discussing this more, not less. Am I going crazy lol?
Less the slabs (though I'd imagine no system is perfect) & more the lax policy regarding "reholders" (comic in inner sleeve not always re-checked). imho.
I agree it needs to be talked about. But I also don’t want to create a video just for the sake of creating one. But when there’s new info like this, I think it’s worthwhile to report on.
What I want to see come out of this is actual standards and practices across the industry that all companies have to follow. I've already had some argue against it, and I am like "the lack of these is what got us here!"
They are going to need an anti-tamper seal (perhaps seals) that cross the seam of the case itself. A unique number matching the label might also help. The one they have on the label is pretty but does no good. The seal has to be destroyed when the case is opened. Unless someone can tell me in some instances that seal is destroyed. I've never opened a case, so I can not confirm that.
Ryan - You just provided the smartest, most balanced comments on this issue that I have heard. Great job.
Feel the most important thing is the perpetrator(s) face the full extent/consequences of the law. This should prevent many from attempting fraud in the future.
I agree. That would hopefully serve as somewhat of a deterrent. However, people go to jail for robbing banks and they still do it. Some people will still do this despite the consequences because there’s a financial gain to it.
Ryan, I noticed that you seem affected by other people's posts in this video. I saw Sticky Goose giving you a hard time. Goose has some issues that he needs to work through. Don't take his harshness seriously. You did an awesome job in your part of unmasking this scammer. The entire comic collecting community owes you massive heaps of gratitude.
Personally I can’t stand graded books. But there is a simple solution to this…. I don’t buy them!! But that doesn’t mean someone else can’t collect graded books! Collect how you want!
Ryan, Thank you for your very informative videos which helped the collecting community understand the scam that was going on. You have provided an invaluable service to comic collectors. As you mention in you video, there are people who don't like CGC and graded comics, so theyll seize on this and use it to trash graded comics, which I feel are here to stay. Kudos to CGC for its response, and I think CGC should aggressively take legal action against the scammers who are commiting fraud with its holders. They should go to jail for mail fraud and wire fraud.
Thanks for your involvement in this disturbing situation.
What about lazer etching a qr code or serial number on the laminating that surround the comic and on the hard case. Make them matching codes that way each comic that is sealed matches the case its sealed in. Like a cars serial # to the registration or engine block. That seems like a simple fix moving forward...🤔
The fact that there were no red flags raised by an abnormally high number of reholdering requests suggests that CGC was asleep at the wheel. If you're running a secure operation, that should be something you're aware of.
Alternately, it could be they WERE aware of it and chose to look the other way because it hadn't blown up in their face yet. Which would be worse.
I'm very curious to see what they do for all the existing slabs out there, especially if they get rid of the reholder program. There's already a big backlog, imagine adding millions more books for regrade. And all the fees for Walkthroughs 🤑🤑🤑
Yeah, no idea how that will be addressed.
I understand youd thinking on not wanting them to show what has changed. But I look at it like this, either way bad actors will attempt again and we the buyers/collectors don't know what's new or what's to look for to protect ourselves. I honestly think we need to know
I’m an EGS customer so this doesn’t affect me.
I’m sure breaking into their cases is coming next. Another video showing breaking into the cbcs case was just released. I’m honestly shocked he doesn’t see the impact of what he’s doing.
Makes, one wonder if they should buy a slab.
I'm a bit nervous now.
People should think twice about buying a slabbed book in the next few months. To me there is a diminishing reward to risk ratio choosing slabbed over raw. Less and less reward and guarantees, more and more risk. If I know what I’m doing and can get a vastly better price on a raw book I really don’t see any benefit to buying slabs now. Nb: I’m not religiously against slabs. I own a few, I just see less and less benefit to them.
CGC’s response is standard PR stuff. An initial PR response is never enough to restore the faith, trust, and goodwill they have lost. It’s what happens next and the transparency by which it is communicated that will matter more. Also, how they compensate those buyers who have legitimate claims will be telling. Good (but expected) first step. But words are cheap. I want to see the concrete actions they are taking to improve their system of quality control and to go after and prosecute the alleged offender.
True, and I just read the Willy Wonka level fine print on the back of a CGC case I own from the 1xxxxxxxxxxx series, and found this ". . .the grade is not guaranteed ". I don't understand why it's a private investigator unless they are seeking to indemnify themselves internally. Back to fine print, it is NOT on the newer books at all, but the fine print is heavy.
I still think that this was an inside job. That individual worked with someone within the reholdering dept
Hopefully, authorities have been notified as along with the auction houses including eBay
Good info to know cgc is looking into it. I cant get over the fact i just noticed the chainsaw man in the back.
He’s new =). My brother just got me that and the little stuffed Pochita for Christmas. 🎄
Pochita is hard to see. Behind my right shoulder. I may have to move that to the top shelf or something.
All old tricks. I wonder how many fake certify coins
I don’t think anyone would have an issue with 3rd party grading if it was merely to validate a grade and protect the collectible. But the chase for 9.8s and inflated prices pushed by TH-camrs and resellers has made it a volatile hobby. They’ve replaced collectors with investors and the more money is involved the greater the opening for scammers and shady business practices. Sadly there’s too many people who have already invested too much. CGC could be found guilty of child labor and people would still continue to submit and make excuses for why it’s necessary for the hobby.
Thanks for keeping us informed on this ......
I commende your research and like the how to videos; they are pieces of the puzzle that would be warnings signs.
The reholder process is the weak link and the physical swap isn’t the only step.
In the hack, I have to conclude. I think they are exploiting the reholder/ custom labels and the fact that they are probably not graders in these steps and work in isolated processes.
My job is all about workflow and this one is full of gaps
I’m wondering how easy this is to do with signature series.
Does a reholder request include new inter well sleeve?
I always assumed it did. The reason being that they’re supposed to change the chamber paper they put inside the book when you get it reholdered. So in theory they should be opening all of them up.
Good point on the Data calls, I am sure they could write a DB script to find anomalies such as highest percentage reholder person(s). or maybe highest percent but lowest actual submissions. Maybe these guys stick out like a sore thumb, never actually grading a book for the first time but...always reholdering. hmm. reholdering is not a word.
Lol, yeah, Apple always tries to autocorrect when I type reholder 😂.
But yes, some type of big data analysis of their submissions I’m sure would reveal some interesting results.
Thanks for making the vid.
I thought CGCs response was right on point. It makes sense to me that there was a delayed response. It takes time to investigate allegations.
Did not need that much time defending CGC. Also, the idea that this is one individual, that no one else has figured out how to do this is crazy. I have thought for a while that at some point figuring out how to break a slab without detection would not be an impossible endeavor. If CGC had better consistency and accountability for their grades this would be more difficult to do.
It should be more clear what is a 9.8 and what is a 9.6. CGC can do better - and if that’s not the main message then you are missing the point.
Pretty sure I wasn’t defending CGC in this video. I defended third party grading. I think it’s a valuable service and the positives of it need to be described as well since there are many comments criticizing as well with no actual reason behind that criticism.
Also, a 9.6 and a 9.8 are always going to be close. You can’t get away from that. You’re talking about very small flaws on the books.
@AutomaticComics Maybe we are all fooling ourselves and should never have started using 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8. What the hell, why not 9.1, 9.3, 9.5,9.7? There is a 9.9 is there not?. At least if there are going to be these grades, step up and actually define the differences, not just a graders whim.
@@AutomaticComics I have thought about it like this in the past when considering the potential 'closeness' of certain grades. A 9.6 could have potentially been a 9.69 book that was rounded down by the grader (if there was any way to be that specific) and a 9.8 book could have been a 9.71 that was rounded up. That is theoretically how close a 9.6 and a 9.8 book could be and why those results could vary by the day and the grader for certain books.
@user-tl3lq6uk4o for sure. That’s why many books you could call a strong 8.0/weak 8.5 for example. Sometimes they’re right in the middle and resubmissions can get you either the upper or lower end. It’s not anything wrong with grading in itself, it’s just the nature of how it works.
There are definitely weak 9.8s out there that you would never want to resubmit out of the risk of it getting a 9.6. Those are the books you don’t send in for signatures because the risk is high that it’ll drop in grade.
We love ryan batman level detective
Reholder Gate!
I'm perfectly fine with married pages, covers, posters, tattoos or whatever. It should be an acceptable form, of restoration, if done correctly. It's completely accepted in other collectable hobbies. There's nothing wrong with taking 2 broken vintage toys and making them 1 good toy or car, bike or whatever. Why should it be wrong in comics???
No ones saying it’s wrong in comics. What’s wrong is switching out a book that has married pages with a book that doesn’t and misrepresenting what it is to sell the book for more.
In those other hobbies, non original parts also lower the value. Restored items have lower value than all original. That’s the problem.
@@AutomaticComics aftermarket parts, lower the value. Original parts from another vintage original item, will still be considered original. There are entire economies built around selling original parts. Yes, switching books out of cases is wrong, fraud actually and completely different. A car that's been completely restored with original parts, can go for hundreds of thousands of dollars, the same care unrestored, a couple $1000 at most.
thankyou
I do not fully agree with you. I think the first line saying that they are aware of a person committing. This fraud is perfectly OK. The truth is they are only aware of the one while there may be others. They are not presently aware of that therefore, their statement is dead on accurate. One should not fault them for sayingfax in hand and not speculating. Speculation is also a problem.
TBH: No change for being a CGC customer. I did pause anymore submissions until something came from CGC in protest!! (Even if was just me, it was the principal)
I have hundreds of books to get graded and normally send in 15-50 a month mainly “vintage” but it’s always a balancing act on cash flow…
Great job with all the back-end work you did for our community! Serious props are needed from everyone to you! Have a great new year ahead!
Appreciate it, thanks. There are a lot of people that have helped expose this guy.
As for submissions, I have a little backlog as well. I’m tempted to wait and see if they update their case. If they do, I’d rather have whatever updated/fixed case they use.
Think it's a pretty good reply. Good on them to help some of the people affected.
There's a real possibility that the Secret Service and Dept. of Justice will be involved.
Lmao