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Archaeological Evidence of the Metal "Ziff" from the Book of Mormon! (feat. Jerry Grover!)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ส.ค. 2024
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Dude, this guy should get together with Don Bradley. They are both solving mysteries.
The father and the son are giving away the mysteries of the kingdom
Don is my good friend and reviews my books. We are currently working on a project together.
@@jerrygrover8992That book will be bought immediately by me, followed by many more as I pass them to friends. I cannot wait.
@@jerrygrover8992 I am excited to hear more about it when you're ready to share!
North America is rich in metals especially concentrated where Hopewell and Adena were.
Yes, but there also many deposits around Arizona. This would put the possibility of the Book of Mormon happening around California. The DNA evidence seems to support a California landing rather than a Florida landing.
That is a very broad statement. The abundance of an element, and the utilization of them are very different things. Regarding metallurgy in N. America, there is no evidence of metal use or working on the scale or type claimed in the Book of Mormon.
@@joshua.snyder what? You kidding me? There was been large scale copper mining in North America going back 7,000 years. The ancient mines are there, we likely can’t account for all the copper which has been mined as it’s been spread, lost, reused by a thousand years of inhabitants. So I don’t know ow what you are referring to about a lack of evidence.
I’m so happy there are smart people researching and compiling all this data. It all goes over my head.
Exactly, while anti's and exmos and stuck in the 19th century hearsay. 😂
These aren't the "smart people". Please, never be satisfied that someone has "done the homework".
@@dannyrocket77That is ironic.
love this stuff
Ziff was a form of fake gold that was used as evil money by djinn?
So it was an ancient type of Federal Reserve Note, got it. 😉
Typical engineer. When asked a simple question he gives a 10 minute explanation about how he went about the problem.
Well, I thought most engineers just stare at their shoes and mumble.
😂
@@dirkjensen969Sorry I have been perfecting my mumbling and eye contact avoidance for 60 years now. Too late to change.
Where are the artifacts though
@@bagnasbayabaswe have plenty of artifacts for the doctrine and covenants. Does make you believe Joseph's claims? No. So why pretend book of Mormon artifacts will change anything. We could find a big stone or metal sign with the inscription "nephi wuz here" and it wouldn't change a thing for you. Don’t waste peoples time.
So ziff is an alloy. Like tumbaga, in Colombia... that's an alloy of copper and gold. Looks like gold when new, but cheaper and gets a blue tint from the copper as it oxidizes.
I'm watching this in my hammock in our backyard getting surrounded and mobbed by gnats and mosquitos. whole hummingbirds are cute, in surrounded by woodpeckers and blujays and red tail hawks calling from the trees.
the other day, my kids and i were going to enjoy a campfire near our woods, where i hadn't mowed for a few months, but a copperhead crawled across my foot.... so i unalived it, because that's not worth the risk of leaving it near my kids
We have breeds of native Mountain Goats in North America. It’s probably in North America and was one of the breeds of these Mountain Goats?
They have never been able to be domesticated and I am not aware that their habitat is located within any of the BOM geography models. The BOM also mentions goats so maybe they are already accounted for.
@@jerrygrover8992 good point. When I searched for King Lamoni’s “sheep” all I found were rams and mountain goats. Llamas would fit that for their wool. Also, though I favor a broader model of Heartland and Yucatán, I am a big Jerry Grover Fan! I actually have read your work online, can’t say I retained it all but I find it compelling! I also would think there would be some form of wooly sheep near the colder climates, I haven’t looked into types of wooly animals in the Americas yet.
@@Thehaystack7999 like a buffalo?
This was a fun discussion!
Love this!
Awesome!!!!!! Saucem!!!!!!!
Jerry Grover keeps bringing the 💣 bomb. Thanks.
Nah this dude believes there was a literate society in America before old world contact.😂😂😂. No scientist believes this.
I always assumed cureloms and cumoms were alpacas, guanacos, vicuñas or llamas... another thing to consider is Joseph Smith was translating words into 1820's english i feel like anytime the translation came to a word that didn't have a settled and well known word in 1820s english the spirit defaulted to phonetic transcriptions of the ancient words. Llama and alpaca were words available in the english lexicon vicuña and guanaco not so much well known in Josephs lexicon.
It may also be that llamas alpacas vicuñas and guanacos are sufficiently different from cureloms and cumoms for it to have been an innacurate translation to call them a llama or alpaca vicuña or guanaco but these animals that we have classified as camelids may be derived from the jaredite curelom and cumom a species that would not have been described or known to 1820s english speakers
we also currently have them classified as 4 distinct species of camelid the jaredites may not have had 4 species but 2 or they had 4 species but only had them classified as 2 species in their language.
Interesting
very cool.
More Jerry Grover!
I have dear friends from Egypt. They refer to the tar that oozes up from the road at 104 degree F and gets on your clothes and shoes as Ziff (or Zeft)
That's amazing!!
Jerry: “So I dont care about proving the BoM, but ziff is….” Cardon: “what? Mind blown!” You guys crack me up!
Guys if you really want artifacts just go to the mormon museum, im sure there are lots of them. End of conversation.
How do you melt gold and then turn it in to a powder? Isn't that what Moses did after he had the golden calf melted down?
You pour it and wait for it to cool so it’s in a convenient shape that’s easier to pulverized.
Gold can actually be totally dissolved by some chemicals. When it is reconstituted out of a solution, it is like a fine powder.
I always thought that Ziff was Tumbaga or a version of it.
I agree, probably a low grade tumbaga. I can tell you that if Noah was taxing a fifth of my tumbaga he was going to get the lowest grades of my tumbaga.
A previous interview here on WR posited the Golden Plates may have been made out of tumbaga. Wouldn't they have been called "the Ziff Plates" if that's true?
@@MusicBlikThat is a good question. There are two possibilities for the golden plates based on the technology known at the time available to the BOM areas. One is gold gilding on a copper base the other tumbaga. One thing the BOM itself doesn’t really specify the metaI that was used, Moroni just mentions he didn’t have “ore”. In order for Ziff to make sense with the issue you raised, it may have been gilded copper or in the alternative Ziff is low grade or low quality tumbaga while the Mormon/Moroni plates were was high quality.
Tumbaga is ANACHRONISTIC to the Maya location at the time of BoM. 😂😂😂
Works for those converted to the BofM central America geography bias…. Using his definitions, Couldn’t the shiny mica used extensively in the heartland of North American ancient civilizations fit the definition of Ziff? I think the animals mentioned during the time of the Zaredites fit the late ice age North American elephants / mastodons /camel-like creatures / horses found along with spear heads, etc. in Great Lakes regions… Regardless, the BofM testifies of Christ who according to oral traditions visited ancient peoples in North America, Central America, and the Polynesian Islands, etc…
I've always felt they would be Llama and alpaca. But that blows a hole in the heartland theory.
Maybe. But... why not have them wherever? They traded other stuff. Why not keep the shipping containers to have fresh animals for the return trip or if yours breaks down?
Or maybe mountain goat was one of the other animals in the area? I mean llama is a leap that only works if you already believe in the meso-América model.
“Blows a hole” 😂 because some meso guy takes a leap and says cumoms and cureloms are goats and alpacas?! Then he says they may have gone into mesoland with zero evidence of this. I used to swallow meso anything whole but realized the promised land is not Mexico.
heartland model doesn't work distances for an ancient people is just too far
Wow! More evidence of The Book of Mormon!
... looking beyond the mark
Gerry Grover, Book Of Mormon critiques worst nightmare.
Yeah right. Dude hasn't even debated a real scientist in the topic 😂😂😂Grovers a graden variety pseudoscientist.
@@lrsvalentine First off hundreds or even thousands of scientific discoveries have been made by non scientists, including many major discoveries. Secondly only the grammar of translation is considered a science, most of translation is an art. And Jerry Grover has worked as a professional translator. So your arguments don't hold water.
@@bartonbagnes4605 First off, billions of trips down rabbit holes have been started by poor scientists. That's why we have peer review. And I wonder why Grover's work hasn't been peer reviewed by real scholars? Um maybe because it's another bs rabbit hole. YOUR arguments don't hold water.
@@bartonbagnes4605 You must not be a scientist to come up with this BS answer. No?
@@lrsvalentine No I'm not a Scientist, but at least I know what a Scientist is, and what is and isn't science.
What are the tyres and Crispín pins?
that's Isaiah, will have to ask him
Isn’t Ziff related to zinc which is mixed with copper to make brass. Zinc is found in America but tin used to make bronze is not.
Zinc was a known word at the time of Joseph Smith. Brass and copper are already mentioned in the BOM so not those.
People also ask
Where is tin mined in the United States?
In the United States, tin most commonly occurs in the mineral cassiterite. The majority of tin occurrences are located in the state of Alaska, but tin is known to occur in many other locations in the contiguous United States.Jun 1, 2020
What in tarnation
This is an appropriate response
@@dirkjensen969I wanted to get into that but Cardon cut me off.
If Ziff is fake money, then it might be the parallel to the temple money in Jerusalem.
Like Cardon, I also cannot believe what I’m hearing lo (regarding the llamas and alpacas. I’ve heard the thing about ziff before, and don’t really see a problem with it) But I’m still waiting for his total debunking of heartland with Zelph! He mentioned it last second in a recent video. Then never explained! Can’t do us like that!
North American has wild goats and beast of burden . We call them elk, dear, moose, and mountain goats. We also had the buffalo and mammoths... All of which have been be really useful to man...
they don't domesticate well... or at all
Is this the guy who translated the Caractors document?
Yep. Check out his website Book of Mormon Scientific & Linguistic Research
Good luck proving BOM stuff
"And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man.
And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms."
Llamas and alpacas aren't more useful than horses and not as useful as elephants. He has a strong Mesoamerica bias that prevents him from seeing the obvious that they were most likely mammoths and mastadons as they appear in a list of beasts of burden. Again, llamas and alpacas don't rank with horses and elephants.
They could be used for other purposes, for example making clothes from wool
Could they have domesticated moose and Elk? Both being similar in species would have the similar names cureloms and cumoms. I’ve seen photos of men riding moose
What about giant sloths?
Well the meanings are “plow beast” and “mountain sheep” related to wool production. These are the only two unaccounted for larger known domesticated animals in the Americas. Mammoths are currently the only real possibility for elephants based on extinction time frames. Horses are already listed so curelom and cumoms can’t be horses. So they seem to be the most logical choices that match the meanings.
In addition in determining what these are one has to consider why these two names had to be constructed by the Jaredites. Both are camelids and camels were not known in Sumer at the time of the Jaredite departure so did not have preexisting suitable names. So that is a reason supporting llamas and alpacas.
This video was Zifftacular! Jerry is the GOAT!
Not buying it.
Wow so enlightening. Thank you for adding to the discussion.
@@Luirru55, your irritation is noted. If you found this compelling feel free to give your reasoning.
@@kingdave1 How about the research done? The discoveries? How he breaks it down for lay people to understand? How he published even his failures so people can learn from it? I mean, what was NOT compelling about it? What are you "not buying" about it?
@@Luirru55 Nothing in the video provided anything incontrovertible. The conclusions drawn require multiple assumptions. Scholarship, while respectable, doesn’t guarantee the proposition or conclusion is correct. His formal answer is go read a 700 page book on ancient Sumerian entomology. It’s not compelling enough for me to care about ziff that much. There are more important issues in the gospel. If you disagree that’s fine.
@@kingdave1Almost everything you talk about with the Book of Mormon concerning archeology will not be incontrovertible. Even the Meso-American people that have been studying this for 60 years still have absolutely nothing of substantial evidence. If you want to find substantial evidence, I would suggest looking at the DNA evidence. It seems to suggest a California landing for rather than Florida or Meso-America landing.
"Anti" as in "anti-nephi-lehi"
Ziff
This backyard, pseudo-scientific nonsense is mindnumbing. I listened to Grover talk unfounded alchemy about metal plates before. 🤦
Hmmm alchemy. You obviously haven’t read the book, all pretty standard scientific stuff. It is free to download. Just do a search on my name and Ziff, Magic Goggles, and Golden Plates. After you read it I would be interested to find out which parts are alchemy. I’m always interested in feedback as long as it isn’t uninformed troll posts on TH-cam.
If the assumption is meso-america, all this could be completely wrong.
Logical flaws can be in the premise of the logical process. A bad initial assumption is the quickest way to invalidate a line of logic.
There was no initial assumption. In this case the research was done and the results then pointed in the direction of Mesoamerica.
Yak Yak Yak! These guys are very painful to listen to. I gave up. I still don’t know what zif is. I listened as long as I could stand it then clicked them off.🙄Boring on steroids. Don’t waste your time!
😂..it’s the host!..he’s a goofball 💯
Ziffadeedoodah!!!
It could also be that Curelom and Cumom are extinct species?
Weak sauce. Too many assumptions made, based on initial assumptions that may be wrong, and throw all the following research off.
Get on the show and present your evidence against then. Show the world how much better you did. I am willing to bet Jerry would be quite interested in your rigorous scholarship.
Grover has already mentioned that there were no initial assumptions.
@@Misa_Susaki the initial assumption is that the Book of Mormon occurred in a specific place. That’s why he claims to have used the Mayan language to decipher the meaning of the words, which could lead to errors in meaning if he starts off wrong. It leads down the wrong road, but you wouldn’t know it because the initial assumption of location could be wrong.
@@stewdaven28 No, go read his other replies on this video.
He said there was no initial assumption, but his findings and research began to point towards meso, NOT the other way around!
His caractors translation book goes into this in a lot more detail, and can explain his perspective better than me in a single youtube comment.
He doesn't respond to critics?😂😂😂 He's no scientist!
I always respond to academic opposing points of view if relevant to the topic I am working on.
@@jerrygrover8992 Nah. Your arguments have so thoroughly been debunked by Dr. John Lundwall, I'd be retracting them if I were you. You do want to be respected in scholarly circles I presume.
@@lrsvalentine I am assuming you are joking. The first podcast that Lundwall did he claimed he had worked on researching the plates for a long time. But had never even read or noticed any of my research or others who had researched the topic of plate metallurgy and is one of the first things that come up on a Google search, but instead was quoting someone from stuff from the 1950's. He only became aware of my research because I commented on the podcast. Then he said he didn't know anything about metallurgy and actually compared tempered 30 gauge copper sheets to "rice paper". What a joke. In order to debunk something you actually have to be bunked. He is so far over his skis on the topic of metallurgy that he has lost them and is cartwheeling down the slope in risk of fracturing his academic neck if he hasn't already done so. All he has done is a podcast for entertainment value with intermittent cackling laughs in an ex-Mo echo chamber. When he has actually produced a document that is academic grade and properly cited available for all to look at, there is absolutely nothing to respond to. If you can provide me a link to that I would be happy to look at it. It is Lundwall that is making an academic fool of himself so far on this particular topic tbh. He ought to just stick to astroarchaeology and petroglyphs.
@@jerrygrover8992 I had replied but I just deleted. I can't take your arguments seriously. When they are published in a peer reviewed journal (reviewed by non Mormon Egyptologists), then I might listen.
@@lrsvalentine LOL, no you wouldn't. Ex-mos are too blinded by their supposed trauma to listen to anything. So bizarre that they claim to be traumatized but then spend all their time being re-traumatized by religiously following Mormon based podcasts. According to any therapist best treatment for trauma is "no contact". I recommend you follow it. But I'm sure you won't. Ciao. Have a nice life.
This guy is dishonest and knows it. Sad sad sad.
Really? That is quite an accusation for someone who has never met me.
@@dirkjensen969I think the issue there is that Zaa”if by itself just means “weak” and can be used as an adjective for anything not just to describe that type of gold “dhahab”. So zyf as a noun for a metal seemed the best fit, and had a cognate in Hebrew (zyph) meaning counterfeit and thus seemed the best match phonetically and etymologically. In addition the religious use of zyf matched the BOM best. There were also definitions of zyf indicating molding or decoration on tops of buildings, also consistent with the BOM use of ziff. I suspect that zyf and zaa’if are likely related and may have the same proto Semitic root as their meanings are too far apart but have not investigated that. The cognate of zyf as the false coin in Persia is za’if, so at least that is a clue that there may be some etymological relationship. And the fact that I could place it back to the time of Lehi was also conclusive. I suspect that as a practical matter Ziff in the BOM was probably a low grade tumbaga, so while not technically electrum it was a low grade gold/silver/copper alloy.
Also the religious connotations of zyf was perhaps a reason that it was left in its untranslated form and capitalized in the BOM because it had more meaning in that form as opposed to just translating it into the word for some metal alloy in English.
@@dirkjensen969Electrum is found on the West Coast of America. Heartland still works with Electrum if you consider a landing in California. Another possibility is Chalcopyrite, which is basically Pyrite mixed with Copper.
@@dirkjensen969You have to consider all angles. The DNA evidence suggests a California landing instead of MesoAmerican. So a modified Heartland model in a way. I can go over several reasons why a California landing makes more sense than a Florida or MesoAmerican landing.