There's Better Archaeological Evidence for the Book of Mormon Than the Bible (feat. Josh Gehly)
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NHM really gets those Antis mad, seems if it were so easy to debunk they would do it. Instead they just complain. It's an odd phenomenon, them coming in here in the first place. How many people do you think go to Hindu channels trying to convince them, all 1.3 Billion of them, that their sacred books are false? Answer: Zero
But Hindu Scripture is not a threat to Lucifer, the Book of Mormon is.
Persecution has always followed the truth. It's Satan's tell. It stopped in Palmyra, Farr west, Kirtland and Nauvoo when the LDS left. Persecution started once SLC became a US territory. The latest location is in the TH-cam comment sections.
Have you actually looked into criticisms of this NHM hypothesis and why it is considered spurious by academic archeologists?
@@Winstanleyisbadazz "spurious by non-folk"?
I must admit, I have no idea what you are talking about about, nor do I wish to.
@@Winstanleyisbadazz Stick with Nephite coins, they are more of your 'milieu'.
"NHM really gets those Antis mad, seems if it were so easy to debunk they would do it."
I'm an "anti", and I'm not mad, but I wrote the text below in a post on the Recvoery From Mormonism bulletin board about 15 years ago, shortly after I read that Mormon apologists were citing the "NHM" carving as "Book of Mormon evidence". Some people must think that my comments made sense, because Jeremy Runnells included my post in his "Letter to A CES Director," and my post has been archived on the Mormonthink website under a section titled "Nahom."
Here's my post:
In his book By The Hand of Mormon, Mormon apologist Terryl Givens writes of the ancient altars found in Yemen carved with the letters "NHM":
"These altars may thus be said to constitute the first actual archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon."
Here's why Givens' statement actually hurts the BOM's case: At that part of the BOM storyline, the Lehites have left Jerusalem and are on their way to the promised land. There are only a few dozen people in the party at most. This carving is in the general area of where the Lehite party supposedly traveled through, and dates from the general time frame. So far, so good. Sounds reasonable.
OK, here's the problem: The BOM storyline goes on to say that the Lehites eventually make it to the promised land (the American continent, of course), and they grow into a mighty nation of hundreds of thousands of people, occupying the land for a thousand years (not to mention the preceding Jaredites, who allegedly arrived circa 2500 B.C. and grew to number in the millions.) The Lehites divide, and war against each other.
The BOM gives very specific details about its characters' culture, religion, politics, flora and fauna, etc. The BOM people speak/write Hebrew and some form of Egyptian. They worship the Old Testament God, follow the law of Moses, and even preach and worship Christ both before and after His ministry.
They train horses and use them to pull chariots as Old World people did. They develop metalworking skills and smelt "swords of finest steel" and other metal tools and weaponry.
They grow into a population as vast "as the sands of the sea" and build great cities which "cover the land with buildings from sea to sea." Early in the 5th century A.D., the wicked Lamanite faction battle and eliminate the entire opposing Nephite nation which numbers more than 230,000.
Now, here's the problem: if the "NHM" carving truly was "BOM evidence"-and if the BOM storyline as I've outlined here were true-then scholars should be able to find a million times more items of physical evidence for the BOM culture somewhere in the Americas than the single stone carving in Yemen.
Numerous artifacts of that Christ-worshipping, horse-training, Hebrew-writing, steel sword-making culture should be scattered all over the region in which LDS apologists claim the BOM took place (Central America). But of course, there aren't any. None, zip, nada. Apologists cite tantalizing "possible evidence" such as a few horse bones, meteoric iron ornaments, the Bat Creek stone, etc. They propose excuses for lack of evidence such as "Maybe the horses were deer" etc. But they cannot show a single, unambiguous, confirmed item of physical evidence to show that the BOM occurred anywhere in the Americas.
And that's why Teryl Given's admission is so damning to the BOM's case: If, in his view, the "NHM" carving is the FIRST item of evidence for the BOM's historicity ever discovered-after 170+ years of looking for some-then it's safe to say that no artifacts will ever be found in the Americas, where the evidence should be thousands of times more likely to be found.
End quote of my 15 year old post. Because there is no evidence to support the BOM story anywhere in the Americas, then it is obvious that the name of NHM (Nahum being the name of an Old Testament prophet) found on a carving in the Middle East, where Nahum/Nahom was an authentic ancient Middle Eastern name, is merely coincidental. Thus, the carving does not constitute "Book of Mormon evidence" at all.
Let me add another bullseye to Lehi's Journey in Arabia: After they arrive in Bountiful, Nephi says they had been eating raw meat. When they left Nahum and headed east, they entered the "empty quarter" where there were no plants. It turns out that raw meat is high in vitamin C which prevents scurvy. This was discovered by the Scott polar adventure in 1912. There is no way JS could have known this in 1830. Another lucky guess by J.S.:)
"Nahom" is an Ethiopian word that represented the journey towards Ethiopia. The journey was up the Nile River and the "East" turn was at the convergence of the White and Blue Niles at Khartoum.
Baby boys are named Nahom in Ethiopia every day.
The Tree of Life Vision was a map out of Egypt and up the Nile to Ethiopia. Lehi was commanded to go to the Garden of Eden in the vision and that's Ethiopia according to Genesis 2:13.
The river in the vision is the Nile. It's "head" is mentioned and the Blue Nile starts in Ethiopia.
This is a common theme for Jews escaping Israel for thousands of years. They went to Ethiopia because they were returning to the Garden of Eden. This is exactly the point of the Tree of Life Vision.
Lehi could not stay in Egypt. The dangers are detailed in Jeremiah 44.
Raw meat is a delicacy in Ethiopia called Kitfo. As the family enters Ethiopia this detail is mentioned.
The Nephites return to Egypt in Helaman 3. The "treeless" land where they build with "cement" and "ship" timber is describing Egypt. This is why Helaman 3:6 refutes the idea of "Desolation". Jeremiah 44 clearly describes Egypt as a "Desolation" and the Nephites knew this. They thought it was safe to return to Egypt to the North of Ethiopia.
The return to Egypt is where the Nephites were destroyed. This is prophesied not only in Jeremiah 44 and the Tree of Life Vision but also in 1 Nephi 12. When the angel tells Nephi about his seed being destroyed. The destruction happens on the "same" river as the one in the Tree of Life Vision 1 Nephi 12:16. Again, this is the Nile and the destruction happens in Egypt.
Jews that stayed in Ethiopia remained relatively safe until they migrated back to Israel after WWII. They are called Ethiopian Jews or Beta Israel. Jews have been living in Ethiopia since at least the days of King Solomon.
🎯 Wapachow!!!!
Have you perchance looked up what fruits and vegetables were common in Yemen circa 600 BC?
Don't get me wrong, I love learning about the archeological evidence, it fills my curiosity itch. But the most impressive evidence of The Book of Mormon to me is the witnesses. The evidence of the witnesses was by divine design and studying their lives and the loyalty to their testimonies is so profound and inspiring.
How can you say that? All of the Book of Mormon witnesses, except Martin Harris, were related by blood or marriage either to the Smiths or Whitmers! Some had financial investments in the BOM! ALL left the church. The only reason they did not proclaim the BOM to be a fraud is that there were numerous lawsuits against the church at the time, and they (or their estates) would have face civil and/or criminal charges for lying!
Really??? The witnesses to the gold plates were from two families, one family being that of Smiths. Compare this to the 500 + witnesses at Pentecost.
Go to a yoga retreat they will have powerful witnesses as well.
@jj-zr6fu Dude, I was talking about the actual historical evidence of the 12 witnesses of the golden plates. You replied to one of my comments from another video so I know you’re either catholic or a troll. The evidence of the witnesses is historical evidence. But if you want to get into spiritual witness that you are saying is the same thing as yoga, it’s not. I’ve done yoga. But I ask you this. In 2 timothy 3:7 it says, “ always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.” the more I study the more I see how one can study forever and never come to any conclusions about who’s truth claims are right and who has the correct interpretations of scripture. So I took it to God and he witnessed to me that this is His church. I’d love to see a better metric than “just trust me bro.”
The witnesses were from two families, one of which was Smith's own family. Very weak evidence. The whole quagmire could have been settled once and for all by the gold plates, which were whisked away by an angel. Everything about Mormonism is "possibly" "probably" or "maybe". Absolutely no tangible evidence.
The Book of Mormon derives its names from a book that has Semitic sources, i.e., the King James Bible. Many of the names in the Book of Mormon are just plucked directly from the Bible, e.g., “Lehi” (Judges 25:9), Laban (Gen. 24-30), Lemuel (Prov. 31:1-9). Other names, however, use the Bible as their inspiration with alterations, e.g., “Jarom” (“Joram” 2 Sam. 8:10), “Omni” (“Omri” 1 Kings 16:16), “Nehor” (“Nahor” Gen. 11:22). “Nahom” easily fits into the latter category: “Nahum” is actually a book of Old Testament…
Interesting
15% of the Book of Mormon text is copied almost verbatim from the King James Bible. It's not surprising that Joseph Smith used Biblical names for his characters who were Hebrews from Jerusalem, as well as using Biblical-sounding place-names. DUH.
The BofM sounds biblical because it was modeled after the Bible (King James Version specifically). It does not remotely sound like a Native American text or anything along those origins.
The Book of Mormon narrative and plot is similar to "Gulliver's Travels", but much more boring. The BOM is a sure cure for the most hopeless insomniac.
@@nathanielwilkerson6217except a non-member said the book translates into Egyptian best. And in the beginning of the book it says nephi records in Egyptian.
I know that critics have looked thoroughly at that issue and done a lot of searching (pretty sure they looked at Dartmouth first tbh) and were only able to come up with one located in Philadelphia (170 miles away) and it was the version with Nehhm . Wouldn’t make sense to put Nahom in the BOM, if anything he would have likely put Nehhm. Plus he would have had no idea that it existed in 600 BC. If that was his theory he would not have used Shazer, most likely he would have just lifted the name off of an Arabian map of the time.
Jerry, some questions for you: Since Nahum/Nahom is a book in the Old Testament, thus it was an authentic ancient Middle Eastern name, then wouldn't the fact that that name was etched on an altar in the Middle East be mere coincidental? And wouldn't it be more likely that Joseph Smith merely used that Biblical name in writing his fictional book, just as he used many other Bible names?
Also: Let's assume that the BOM is authentic, and that Lehi's party did travel through that area, and the NHM carving is evidence which supports the story. At that point in the BOM, circa 580 BC, how many people would have been in Lehi's party? A dozen or two? And then those people sailed across the ocean to the western hemisphere, and over 1000 years, they grew into populations of hundreds of thousands, building great cities from sea to sea, and they spoke and wrote in Hebrew. So if that one NHM carving is authentic evidence that the "Lehites" actually existed in Yemen, then wouldn't it logically follow that over the next thousand years in the Americas, those hundreds of thousands of Nephites and Lamanites would have etched hundreds or thousands of similar writings in stone wherever they lived?
By comparison, we know a great deal about Mayan culture because they etched their history on stele. A Wikipedia page titled "Mayan Monarchs" lists dozens of rulers dating as far back as 331 AD, which is during the Mayan Classic period as well as the peak of the alleged vast "Nephite" culture. From that Wikipedia page:
"Maya kings felt the need to legitimize their claim to power. One of the ways to do this was to build a temple or pyramid. Tikal Temple I is a good example. This temple was built during the reign of Yikʼin Chan Kʼawiil. Another king named Kʼinich Janaabʼ Pakal would later carry out this same show of power when building the Temple of Inscriptions at Palenque. The Temple of Inscriptions still towers today amid the ruins of Palenque, as the supreme symbol of influence and power in Palenque."
So, if the Mayans built temples to memorialize their rulers, where are similar "Nephite" structures and records of rulers, etched in Hebrew or some form of Egyptian? Where are temples or stele which feature Judeo-Christian iconography, or horses and chariots, or depictions of battle scenes using metal weaponry, or any other such items as described in the Book of Mormon? If scholars can unearth and decipher names of dozens of Mayan rulers spanning over hundreds of years, where are the artifacts which contain the names and information about the reign of all of the Book of Mormon kings and prophets?
If the BOM is authentic, then why didn't their specific, highly advanced technology of horse breeding, wheeled vehicle use, forged metal tools and weaponry etc. spill over into the cultures of the most highly advanced other Pre-Columbian tribes such as the Mayans?
@@randyjordan5521 Well, you are asking for a book level discussion in a TH-cam comment. First, on Nahom, there is an article addressing the use at a particular ancient location. Search The Place-or the Tribe-Called Nahom?: NHM as Both a Tribal and Geographic Name in Modern and Ancient Yemen. The NHM carved on the alter is just evidence that it is an ancient place name. I don't think anyone is asserting that the Lehites carved it. I suspect that when Ishmael died they likely buried him in a cave as was a standard Hebrew practice, and wouldn't have marked it with NHM.
The Maya is not the "Nephite" culture. It is basically the culture being described as Lamanite. On that Wikipedia page you referred to, although not listed as a king at Tikal, Siyaj Kʼakʼ is mentioned and was in fact, based on his Maya title, was an over-king of sorts allied with Teotihuacan. He corresponds etymologically and chronologically with king Aaron. Do a search of my book Calendars and Chronology of the Book of Mormon, it is discussed at length there.
As far numerous carvings etc, unlike the Maya/Lamanite (btw Laman in Hebrew just means "unbeliever" so basically can include any group that wasn't "us") the Nephites didn't really promote or worship their kings in that manner as far as the text indicates and didn't even have any kings after around 200 BC or so. So those types of structures anyway. As far as the language, there were other languages indicated that were not the lingua franca, Enos had to be trained in the language of his fathers for example, indicating the local language. A modified Hebrew was referenced after a thousand years but they would probably likely have no idea what the Hebrew pronunciation was like after 1000 years, and the language would have been severely modified as languages typically do. Something like 30 percent of the current English is from the English of a 500 years ago or so. So the current finding of 1500 plus Semitic or Egyptian derived terms in Uto-Aztecan might be what one would expect to find a be something that they called Hebrew. As far as Mesoamerican script, there are 17 different scripts found, most only have one example, so the Maya are definitely the exception to leaving many examples of their script. One of those does look potentially to be a form of Egyptian as a few have noted (you can find that discussion in the book Translation of the Caractors Document, again available for free).
I have no idea where you are getting the idea that there was extensive metal weaponry, the BOM doesn't say that, Nephi when he first arrived, says they made a few weapons (there weren't many of them) looking like the Sword of Laban. The Jaredite sacred bundle had the 2000 year old rusted swords of Shule as a religious item, with the somewhat mythical genesis of them being made using a volcano as a source of heat (See my book Swords of Shule). Horses are never mentioned as being used in war, and chariots aren't defined. I suspect that horse and chariot, and many instances of gold and silver were just kennings anyway, as is a common item found in the limited Mesoamerican literature that we have. Anyway, that's all I have time to answer, I do have a life outside of TH-cam podcast comments.
@@jerrygrover8992 What degree to you have? What universities have peer reviewed your "evidence"? Please don't tell me your not even a PhD and your work is not accepted by a single university in the world. That would make you a clown on an echo chamber.
@@randyjordan5521Bernal Castillo wrote in a book of his (The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico). He was a soldier under Cortez. He wrote how one of the Aztec chiefs saw one of their metal helmets and said it looked similar to something left behind by their “ancestors”.
I just got back from, let’s call it a work trip, in Yemen. I was in an area that covered NHM and spanned out east to one of the only “bountiful” locations in that region, filled with rivers, fruit, and honey. This region was known for their honey and was considered an exotic delicacy until the current civil war caused an embargo on its export.
I was able to get multiple jars of this honey and refer to it as “book of Mormon honey” with my family and friends. (Possibly from bees descended from those Lehi’s family used while in the area)
A cool piece of history in my tummy now
Lehi's honey is the same honey the Jaredites brought with them. The Jaredites started in Ethiopia and went North to Israel. When Lehi leaves Jerusalem he enters Africa and returns to Ethiopia. This is why they mention honey. These journeys are between Ethiopia and Israel. This is where the entire BOM takes place. It has nothing to do with Arabia.
Arabia is NOT Bountiful. The Monsoon brings a temporary green season with a few streams but it simply is not Bountiful. You've missed all the internal consistencies that point to Ethiopia. The BOM is an Ethiopian book.
Lehi leaves Jerusalem and enters Egypt in Africa. He settled on an island in the Nile. His "altar of stones" is discovered and known. From there he had the Tree of Life Vision that command he follow the river to the Garden of Eden. The river in the vision is clearly the Nile and the Garden is in Ethiopia according to Genesis 2:13. It is well known that Ethiopia is the source of the Nile and that's why the "head" of the river is mentioned in the vision.
Please read Jeremiah 44. The destruction described is the same destruction Lehi sees in the vision. They both occur in Egypt. Both Jeremiah 44 and the vision refer to the Jews as "multitudes". The "forbidden paths" refer to Egypt. Read Book of Abraham 1:23.
The "East" turn is at Khartoum. The critical convergence of the White and Blue Niles. The East Nile leads to the Garden of Eden in Ethiopia. Nahom is an Ethiopian word. Baby boys are named "Nahom" all the time.
Arriving at the Biblical Garden of Eden is a far better reason to call it "Bountiful" than anything in Arabia. In fact, the BOM consistently refers to Asia as "Desolation". Basically the exact opposite of Bountiful. This is the point they were making.
Lehi never went to Arabia and he never went to America. The Book of Mormon takes place in Africa along the Nile. This is why the angel tells Nephi his seed will be destroyed on the "same" river as in the Tree of Life Vision 1 Nephi 12:16. They are destroyed on the Nile River after they migrate back to Egypt.
One migration back to Egypt is in Helaman 3. Helaman 3 gives a detailed description of Egypt including calling it "desolation" exactly as it is called in Jeremiah 44.
@@redfightblue you seem to know a lot but you’re wrong about what I saw on the Arabian peninsula. If you’ve traveled the expanse of it and observed something different, I’m more than happy to hear of your personal experiences there, too.
People get so authoritative on what’s speculation at the end of the day 😉
The Proctors spent years in southern Yemen tearing it apart looking for Bountiful, and had ZERO to show for it in validating the B of M. The whole idea is ridiculous.
@@joshua.snyder Idk which part of Yemen they went to that wasn’t already torn apart 😂
@@KylonRic I, in no way, was attempting to discount what you saw, felt or experienced.
I simply believe strongly that the Book of Mormon is an Ethiopian text. The Tree of Life Vision guided Lehi to Ethiopia.
The Jaredites were Ethiopians that migrated North to settle Israel.
Nearly the entire book takes place on the Nile River in Africa.
The river in the vision is the Nile. The Angel tells Nephi his seed will be destroyed on the Nile. The book has nothing to do with Arabia or America.
Jeremiah 44 describes Jews being destroyed in Egypt. This is the same destruction Lehi sees in the vision.
The Nephites are destroyed in Egypt after they migrate back to Egypt in Helaman 3.
Bountiful is just as interesting, if not more interesting, than NHM. It is EXACTLY where it is supposed to be, due east of NHM On google earth it is this little teeny tiny patch of green no one in North America knew of in 1830. It has huge trees to build a ship with, ore to manufacture tools, nuts, berries, waterfalls, bees, honey, a shallow port to launch a boat from, a cliff overlooking the water to throw an obnoxious brother into the sea. It has everything.
Now if we could only find the land of Bountiful which the BOM asserts is somewhere in America...
@@randyjordan5521 You just have to look on the right Continent. North America is not it. Central America is not it either. Both of those have the people that boarded the ships that Hagoth built and sailed Northward.... but are not the Book of Mormon lands.
@@MrNirom1 LOL. "Book of Mormon lands" were in Joseph Smith's mind, not anywhere in the real world.
That's why there has not been a single item of physical evidence to confirm the "Book of Mormon" people's existence 194 years after the book was published.
@@randyjordan5521 Oh... there is evidence. But the unfaithful do all they can to not believe it. And others... want a certain place to be that land... and they force fit the puzzle pieces into their map. Those who want to believe that the United States is the Book of Mormon lands... will do everything in their power to pound those ideas into our heads. All it took was the Saints to call the lame hill Cumorah and the US instantly became the land on which they believe the Book of Mormon took place. And they will fight to keep it that way. Never mind that Joseph never called the hill by the name of Cumorah himself.
@@randyjordan5521 The Ohio Hopewell area in the State of Ohio would be the land of Bountiful of the Nephites. The land of Bountiful is where Christ visited and so would become the most holy site in all the lands. Ohio is the central point of trade and religious pilgrimage of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere from the Rocky Mountains to the east coast, and from Canada to Florida.
The Hopewell also built Geometric Earthworks with astronomical alignments for a 36 year cycle of alignments with the sun and moon. There's symbolism similar to that used in our Temples today.
TH-cam video: The Hopewell, LDS Temples, and Circling the Square posted by J.J. Brown
The Geometric Earthworks are also said to have been community projects. Everyone who worked on their construction wore the same clothes, ate the same foods, and wirked just as hard as everyone else. Which to me sounds like a people living the Law of Consecration where they had all things in common among them, and a classless society. The Geometric Earthworks show no signs of habitation and are believed to be ceremonial sites of religious rituals.
TH-cam video: Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks: Ohio's First UNESCO World Heritage Site posted by the Ottawa County Historical Society
For the first couple of centuries AD there are no signs of warfare. The Hopewell at that time didn't live concentrated in cities, but more spread out in the countryside in little hamlets with individual garden plots. The great era of peace in the Book of Mormon was from 36 AD to 200 AD, so it fits perfectly. It wasn't until later toward the end of the 3rd and 4th centuries AD that they again see evidence of warfare, and they started concentrating in cities behind defensive walls again, and were driven back by continuous attacks until their eventual destruction up in the New York State area.
TH-cam video: Ohio Archeology Month: Newark Earthworks Wonder of the Ancient World posted by City of Athens Ohio
The Book of Mormon lands were also the most choice land above all other lands. I take that to mean the most advantageous for a civilization to develop on. The United States, especially the Eastern United States is literally the most choice land above all other lands. I'm have extreme doubt that such a case could be made for any other location in the world.
TH-cam video: How Geography Made the US Ridiculously OP by RealLifeLore
Typical Mormon apologetics : find the vaguest reference you can, and then jam BOM fictional history into it. First of all, it needs to be pointed out that the inscription does not confirm that Nahom was an actual place or that this particular stone validates 1 Nephi 16:34. The inscription on the stone merely provides three consonants - NHM. It is also important to note that NIHM is believed to be a tribal name, not a place name, and that the three consonants can have a variety of spellings when vowels are inserted. References to NHM are “usually given as NiHM, NeHeM, NaHaM etc.”
Bingo!!! It is amazing how Mormons claim archaeology is not necessary to prove the BOM, only faith, but continuously search for an Eldorado that is fictional. Dr. Michael Coe, foremost expert on Mayo civilization, has repeatedly stated there is no such thing as Mormon history. There is no empirical evidence to support a fairy tale. There is no "Mad Hatter's Hat" to be discovered through archaeology that will verify Alice in Wonderland as real history.
I didn't realize WARD Radio did comedy spoofs. The Morman bible is HILARIOUS! You ever read it? It's funnier than shit. Just like the Quran. Pretty sure the same guy wrote both! Hilarious!
What part of the Book of Mormon is more "hilarious" than the Bible?
Wow, I feel the Antis going on the defensive. I love it. Its one of my favorite feelings in the whole world. Its like when youre watching a boxing match and the guy with all the cokiness gets popped with a right hook and his knees buckle as he takes a step backwards.
The BofM geography is a serious problem (the antis do actually have us on the ropes here). None of the current models really work, they all have serious flaws which then calls into question the BofM historicity. We need to solve this problem before we worry ourselves with word games involving NHM etc... Even though I appreciate the exuberance with which these guys promote their findings.
@@medeekdesign LOL Don't confuse naive idealism with exuberance.
HAHAHA, NHM is a joke. Three letters that could mean anything, and a twisted reading of a route that could go anywhere
@@kevinedward118 I agree, it's pretty weak evidence of anything really and could just be a matter of coincidence. I hate to be debbie downer. I would love to see something more concrete turn up, like some actual reformed Egyptian or even Hebrew in the archaeological digs in Central America, is this too much to ask? Some real evidence, anything. Word games are not going to cut it, not even for the TBM crowd.
Heading to the archaology conference next weekend and so excited for it. :D
This is a great example in why it is important to be attentive to actual archeological and geological evidence’s when we attempt to understand Book of Mormon geography. Great episode and guests to help us understand the better way to approach this subject. I believe convergence of evidences bring us truth over zealous and pseudo science narratives if we want to determine facts vs. assumptive ideas coming from historical quotes that in many cases are misleading and second hand. Folks get very uncomfortable for some reason when a certain theory is disproven by actual facts. I have in past comments been absolutely smeared and basically told to shut up when I support the leanings towards the MesoAmerica theory though none of us know for sure. Why are some so vicious in their support of one theory or another? It is telling in how they defend or offend that may help with this question. Nahom alone is not supporting of any theory and at least hopefully we can all come to that conclusion and not be so divided. Hope we can move forward and have opinions without responses that are just mean and without substance. And as I’ve stated before, bad apologetics coming from the faithful can actually be worst for our faith in the Restoration than the anti Mormon community.
You basically saying you do better research than anybody else and your ideas about mesoamerica are correct😅😅😅
@@wellsjdan I think what he is saying is that whatever research is being put forward should be academic grade, and cited to documented facts or research. For example, I often hear people say that I talked to some guy who knows something about Mesoamerica without naming the person or giving a citation to research and this expert says things like there are no grapes in Mesoamerica or there are no seasonal migrations of animals in Mesoamerica. Both of these statements are demonstrably false (grape remains have been found in archeological sites) (animals are know to migrate seasonally in Mesoamerica based on water available and different climactic zones). There may also be Mesoamerican proponents (some who make profit off of tours, which is your first red flag of anyone involved in Book of Mormon geography research) who make outlandish undocumented unreasonable claims.
So... should we see if they will let use put Ishamael with Joseph until we find who his lineage is among Native Americans/1st Nations?
Listen to Chief Midegah talk about mesoamerica vs heartland. Both can be true at the same time, vast civilizations were present in both.
@@jerrygrover8992 there's problems with both theories.... But to me the heartland is where happened.... Basically our scripture tell us so.... Joseph sent parly p. Pratt and others to go "amongst the lamanites"... And guess where they went? Thru out the Midwest and upper New York 🤷 But this guy rubbed me the wrong way with his kind of arrogance
Will the angel Macaroni please bring back the gold plates from the planet Kolob, so there will be one piece of evidence to support the Book of Mormon.....
I don’t have much of a TH-cam channel although the pages for each of the books has videos of presentations or podcasts I have been on. I spend most of my free time doing the research itself. I recently released a new book on BOM chronology that provides a scientific explanation of the night of brightness
We mere humans call "a night of brightness" "daytime."
@@randyjordan5521 The Caractors Document actually seems to indicate a term equivalent to of 2 days of "brightness". That's why I use that term.
@@jerrygrover8992 Is such a thing as "2 days of brightness" scientifically possible?
It’s pretty straightforward. Good stuff!
Thinking about archeological evidence for the BoM I stopped to consider the same for the Bible. Specifically the wall of Jericho popped into my head. The wall fell around 1400 BCE, we just found evidence of that wall in the early 1900’s. This was found 3300 years later but we never questioned the story before that. Yet the BoM is expected to provide full references upon delivery. “People with integrity expect to be believed. If not, they let time prove them right.”
That maybe true, but the Bible also gets a ton of things wrong, which is also has come from archeological discovery. The difference between the Bible and BoM is that we actually have ample evidence of many things in the Bible despite its many authors getting some things wrong or completely making up other things. The Bible gets things right in very broad strokes historically. Problem with the BoM is, you don't even have a starting place to even begin looking. You don't have the broad strokes right now.
More than half of all sites mentioned in the Bible were located and identified dozens or hundreds of years ago. Most Bible cities have been continuously occupied ever since they were mentioned in the Bible, such as Jerusalem, Cairo, Damascus, etc. Some of them just have different names today, such as Persia is now Iran, Babylon is now Iraq, etc. The people who live in the Middle East today are descended from those who lived there 2000-3000 years ago.
By contrast, none of the cities named in the Book of Mormon have been found or identified. There is no evidence outside of the pages of the BOM that any of them ever existed anywhere. There is also no evidence that any of the Hebrew-descended people as described in the BOM lived anywhere in the Americas.
@randyjordan5521 Jesus warned in the archeological sound biblical text, that in the last days, false prophets would arise and deceive many. Maybe we should give heed to those words and stick with what we know is true rather then make something be true when it just isn't? It's like forcing a square peg to fit inside a circle.
Primary moves have updated:
Tired: sunBEAM!
Wired: SCRIPTURE POWER!
If under 85 decibels, admonish the music leader.
There we so many warning at this last general conference.
The temples are the biggest warning. Some of us are selling our houses and moving to Missouri for the winding up scene.
What do you mean?😅
There is a Puerto Rico DNA study that should be investigated. It could help pinpoint the lands of the Book of Mormon people. DNA would be the most effective tool, maybe even surpassing archaelogical evidence for now. We already know of Haplogroup X in the NE of America by Cumorah and the Puerto Rico study points to possible DNA from Lehi's group or Jared's group. Puerto Rico is right by the Yucatan from Mexico. Please discuss this on your show.
According to LDS geneticist Ugo Perego, "haplogroup x" does not constitute evidence to support the BOM story at all.
@@randyjordan5521 Consider that Haplogroup X could be remnants of Jaredites. Or even Lamanites.
@@joshradson2649 "Haplogroup X is not evidence for the Book of Mormon to be true....the one found in America is not a descendant of the one found in the Middle East. It is a sister group. It is not an ancestral or a descendant group."---LDS geneticist Ugo Perego.
According to LDS doctrine and Joseph Smith's statements, there were no other people living in the Americas before the "Jaredites" arrived circa 2500 BC, because any such people would have perished in the global flood.
Because the "Jaredites" came from the Middle East, they would have been Semites/proto-Hebrews. And of course, the "Lehites" were Hebrews. So if the Book of Mormon is authentic, everyone who lived in the Americas before Columbus should have descended from the "Book of Mormon people." Thus, all native Americans' DNA should be closely related to their Hebrew/Semitic cousins in the Middle East.
If DNA research shows that all native Americans are descended from Siberian-Mongoloids who came to the Americas 20-25k years ago---and DNA research shows no introduction of Hebrew/Semitic DNA into the Americas circa 2500 BC or 600 BC---then the BOM story is not authentic.
*WARD RADIO IS #1*
Correct! And we don’t need an archaeologist to tell us if it’s true or not.
Fantastic show folks! I'm going to donate!
Thanks, Kelly!
There are too many top dogs to not know. If you have heard of or served among the native American tribes near the D&C place of Zarahemla, you know the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
Where is this located?
@@medeekdesign It's nigh unto Kolob.
And this was one of the few details Nephi gives, why this detail?
What we should all do on this subject is listen to what Dr. James White has to say about it, I mean, the guy went to Grand Canyon University then received his doctorate from some unaccredited correspondence school the size if a janitors closet. I mean, wow, that guy must know everything!
Good point. Dr. Michael Coe was the most reputable archaeologist and foremost expert on Maya civilization. He read the BOM and said that Smith was nothing but a shaman. He called the whole book fiction. Dr.Coe was an atheist and had no dog in the fight. But, 16 million Mormons refuse to accept his investigation, yet they will believe any snake oil salesman coming down the road.
Cool
4:57 Cardon...WHY do you feel the need to interrupt people within seconds of you asking them a question?
Some of these outbursts…😮
i've made the same comment on multiple episodes.
i don't mind the humor.
but often it is at the wrong moment.
a serious subject is interrupted for no reason,
and the flow of information is disrupted.
This whole channel is about Cardon making a brand of himself. Truth, scholarship and civil discussion isn't the point. Controversy, conspiracy, fearmongering and clicks for even meager money are.
@@joshua.snyder
not true.
@@grayman7208 Cardon has shown it time and time again. This is LdS related entertainment at best, not scholarship, or touching the heart of Christ's message. The spirit of it is entirely self-serving. The callous, arrogant fan base is case-in-point
❤
Poor poor Anti-Mormons, when will they ever get their way?
Darn that historical truth getting in the way of mormon feelings. Life is not fair.
@@kevinedward-jt2vs *ex-mo
@@kevinedward-jt2vs didn't the prophet just encourage y'all to go out and leave the 99 to find the one? Talk about letting your feelings control you. I just left and I'm not against coming back entirely but members behavior towards exmo's is really not helping that cause. We are people and children of God too. Wish you'd treat exmo's as if they were possible converts because to be honest they are, so many would come back if others would be willing and able to talk us through our doubts. God rejoices over the one that returns more than the ones that are already with him.
This type of attitude does nothing to further the cause of righteousness.
@@HalfInsaneJane Joseph Smith mixed lies with truth. There is a God, but Jesus proclaimed you receive eternal life by coming directly to HIM, and seeking HIS face with all your heart. Read the Gospel of John at face value, and HEAR the words of Jesus. No meaningless secret masonic temple ceremonies required.
This is misleading. We can show in 2024 where places of events from the Bible are. The geography of the BM is controversial. There are several competing geography models, and even those are inconclusive.
Not misleading at all. The Book of Mormon starts in the Old World, so comparison to Biblical archaeology (with detailed understanding of the minimalist and maximalist in the field) is fair for that portion of the narrative
Yes, Anti-Mormons, Nephite coins will always be there for you, Nephite coins will be there when you need them most and will never leave you. They will be like a candle in the darkness to you. Love them, love those Nephite coins like the little metalic Anti-Mormon friends that they are.
If only someone could find some actual Nephite coins.
Ya know, the Romans invaded Britain in 43 AD. That invasion led to this:
"The list of Roman hoards in Britain comprises significant archaeological hoards of coins, jewellery, precious and scrap metal objects and other valuable items discovered in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) that are associated with period of Romano-British culture when Southern Britain was under the control of the Roman Empire, from AD 43 until about 410, as well as the subsequent Sub-Roman period up to the establishment of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. It includes both hoards that were buried with the intention of retrieval at a later date (personal hoards, founder's hoards, merchant's hoards, and hoards of loot), and also hoards of votive offerings which were not intended to be recovered at a later date, but excludes grave goods and single items found in isolation.
"Most Roman hoards are composed largely or entirely of coins, and are relatively common in Britain, with over 1,200 known examples.[1] A smaller number of hoards, such as the Mildenhall Treasure and the Hoxne Hoard, include items of silver or gold tableware such as dishes, bowls, jugs and spoons, or items of silver or gold jewellery."---Wikipedia
Where in the Americas can we find similar stashes of Nephite coins?
@@randyjordan5521 I don't know, fer crying out loud, I just don't know.
@@wes2176 "I don't know, fer crying out loud, I just don't know."
Exactly. And that is the problem.
Archaeologists have found the ruins of a short-lived Viking settlement in Newfoundland that dates to 1000 years ago. That settlement might have been built by people on just one ship or on a handful of ships, and it might have existed for only a year or two.
So, if we can find unmistakable artifacts of a tiny short-lived Viking settlement in the Americas, why can we not find any evidence of that vast Nephite and Lamanite culture which allegedly flourished in the Americas for 1000 years and numbered in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions?
@@randyjordan5521 I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out how Joseph Smith predicted the Civil War thirty years before it happened. Once I get that one figured out I'll get back to you.
@@wes2176 I've figured that one out. He didn't predict the Civil War. He was commenting on current political events that he read about in his local paper, the "Painesville Telegraph."
The old anachronism about "horses", were greyhounds or similar dogs in the Americas ? And yes I have vaguely heard about the horse bones in southern mexico.
In the old testament when people were reap for destruction, sometimes the Lord would command the utter destruction of their property as well. Read somewhere in the OT of this occurance once or twice.
Also, we know the BOM talks about the Jaredite connection to the tower of babel. Could that somehow be connected to Noah ?
There were never any horses here before Columbus.
@medeekdesign Search this article: POST-PLEISTOCENE, PRE-COLUMBIAN HORSES FROM A SITE IN SAN LUIS POTOSI, MEXICO.
@@gingersnaps215why is the lead author of that paper, Wade Miller, a Mormon apologist? That’s not suspect to you?
Also, why isn’t this research published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal? Could it be because the problem with the paper is that the radiocarbon dates were NOT from collagen (protein) purified from the horse bones (the gold standard)? The dates were from charcoal or wood next to the bones. If you are not able to isolate collagen, you are at the mercy of the soil environment which can contaminate the bones AND the adjacent charcoal or wood with much younger carbon.
The paper says “We completely agree with statements that an assessed charcoal sample recovered adjacent to a skeletal element does not necessarily create a precise age for that vertebrate specimen. However, some radiocarbon dated charcoal samples were recovered from within millimeters of Equus bones.”
But if the soil is contaminated with carbonates, it doesn’t matter how close you get to the bones. Even the bones are contaminated! Everything is contaminated with carbonates and the dates would be meaningless.
Josh Gehly..... Were there any maps in existence which labeled "Nahom" "Nehum" etc before 1830???
There were no maps that had Nahom, but there were maps produced in Europe prior to 1830 that had a variation of Nahom on them
If he did have a map somehow, that doesn’t explain:
- Following fertile parts of wilderness + Frankincense trail
- Bountiful w/ honey, ore, mountains, etc.
- A foreigner named Ishmael (a less common name at the time) buried at the correct time
- “Nahom” in Arabic & Semitic meaning “mourn,” “repentance” “starvation,” “complaining,” and “consolation” ALL of which were described in 1 Nephi 16
- Valley of Lemuel, other land features
You make conclusions....isn't this about the "NHM" inscriptions??? I haven't heard there is resolution about ANY aspect of that?
@@krismurphy7711Yeah. The antichrists say "no it isn't. " Just like anything else.
Antichrist rule 1: There is NO evidence for the Book of Mormon.
Antichrist rule 2: Every time any evidence for the Book of Mormon appears, see rule 1.
@@jerrygrover8992 Variation? You mean the almost dozen different possible words that come out of "NHM"?
Something you all might find interesting… Some of the same symbols that are on the altar at Nahum have been seen in petroglyphs in the desert in the United States of America at archaeological sites. The symbols are translated as old Canaanite or Proto Semitic. One symbol in particular that shows up is the Tav.
cant decide if you guys are didhonest, or just delusional. everything you just referenced has been completely debunked.
I’ve been studying the different apologetics for the last twenty years and honestly the hard evidence is just not there. We are still jumping through hoops and twisting ourselves into pretzels trying to prove the BofM and the BofA. We need to find artifacts with either Hebrew or Reformed Egyptian on them, this would seal the deal. Anything less is just hot air.
I couldn't disagree more. We have more evidence for the BoM than for Jesus. Easy not even close.
Nope, I am very lean and straight,no pretzel body here.
@@jonahbarnes5841 Where is this actual physical evidence? Please provide me links to verifiable reformed Egyptian archealogical examples or artifacts that we have discovered.
@medeekdesign can't paste links or they get deleted.
Have you ever heard of Hieratic? Demotic? Give em a Google, brother. Those are literally Reformed Egyptian. Stay informed.
@@jonahbarnes5841 I am familiar with both, and here again give me any evidence of Hieratic or Demotic texts or inscriptions being found in the New World. If you can I will be convinced but until I see anything actual Hebrew, Egyptian, Reformed Egyptian, Greek, Hieratic or Demotic writing in the New World then I will say that there is no evidence for the Book of Mormon. It really is that simple, show me the money.
Jerusalem/NHM/Bountiful, the REAL Trinity!
Adam andi ahman is the real place.
Zzzz...zzz. Same few points of nonsense being rehashed. An overrated vague three lettered rock, and a ubiquitous old name. 😅
So why are you here? You didn't even watch the whole video.
Jerusalem/NHM/Bountiful, if you actually studied it you would know it was cool and impossible to make up in 1830 America. But hey, Joseph Smith was just a con man and happened to get lucky on this one. So no need for you to continue visiting this channel.
@@wes2176 If you had any depth of grasping these ideas you'd know how naive and weak that claim is. Historians have had a clear picture of the resources available to Joseph Smith, and records of what he owned and borrowed. It is crystal clear that there is no validity to the argument "How could Smith have known?". Everything he produced is a product of his time and 19th century thinking. Smith was certainly gifted at utilizing it and layering it for his purposes, but there is nothing spiritual or supernatural about it.
@@joshua.snyder zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Agreed. It's cranks like this that keep LDS archaeology the laughing stock. If NHM on the Arabian peninsula is the best evidence there is for a large scale, Egyptian writing, Jewish society, in the Americas, this game is over. But fine. Grant it to them. Write the NHM paper, peer review it, publish it, defend it, like everyone else has to do. NHM should be a slam dunk from the sounds of it. Converts will flock to the church to figure out how he did it. Archaeology and historical knowledge will take a giant leap forward. Everybody wins. Make it happening.
I would have expected the name Ishmael to be common throughout Arabia, he being the father of the Arabic people. Interesting that it apparently went out of style when Lehi was passing through.
Kinda like people using "Muhammad" to name their kids??? And how many Muslims boys are named it???
@@krismurphy7711kind of like Joseph Smith would have had access to that information in the 1820's. Specifically the name Nahom and Ishmael. C'mon Kris Murphy this is getting pathetic
I look forward to reading Kris Murphys comments on every video now, like he’s part of the Ward Family…the one child that is always being confrontational or playing the devils advocate for attention but u still love him
@@sean9854 Truth be told, I do not comment on ALL Ward Radio episodes....only those that are of interest or where the BS is flowing. BTW...feel free to either answer a question I post or rebut a comment I make, rather than make me the target of your false ramblings.
@@krismurphy7711 I think you make yourself the target by attacking instead of asking genuine questions. And I’ve noticed many times ppl are willing to educate you nonetheless. Out of curiosity, what Church do you attend or what is your theology?
“We know the archaeological report and we have images of it”-_-
The alters are not in the location of nehem or nahom. You're stating false facts now. You're also using a modern vegitation map as if that is consistent with what would be seen hundreds and hundreds of years ago. There are so many problems with these claims. This has been so heavily debunked I am experiencing second hand embarassment now.
'So heavily debunked'
😊😊😊
Lol! Sure it has, all those non-LDS anthropologists are there at the site right now 'debunking' it.
Debunk it then. Don't just throw out one lie then claim the whole thing has been 'heavily debunked'. NHM is exactly where it is supposed to be, south of Jerusalem and west of Bountiful. It was in existence in 600 BC, it has a graveyard where people were being buried in 600 BC. Check out the documentaries on it on TH-cam, the locals still call it Nehim today, they interview one of them.
Due east is Bountiful, exactly where it is supposed to be. It is not like 99% of the Arabian peninsula, it is green and lush exactly the way it is described in First Nephi, it has tall trees, tall enough to build a ship, it has honey, nuts, fruit, ore, rivers. And no one in North America knew of its existence in 1830.
So no, I do not believe the NHM subject to be 'heavily debunked', I believe that to be a false statement.
And these things you claim to know so much about are spelled 'altar', not 'alter'.
"The alters are not in the location of nehem or nahom."
The point isn't where they come from but what they refer to when they identify the author as a "Nihmite." The altars were found at the Barran temple in Marib, and Burkhard Vogt (the German archaeologist who found them) said they identified the author of the inscription as being from "the Nihm region, west of Marib." That is same area known as Nihm (or Nehem, Naham, etc.) today. So reference to NHM attests to that region existing in Lehi's day. That is also how a number of other inscriptions referring to NHM have been interpreted by South Arabian scholars. So they attest to the existence of the tribal region Nihm in the same approximate location as the present day Nihm/Nehem region. That is the point.
"You're also using a modern vegitation map as if that is consistent with what would be seen hundreds and hundreds of years ago."
scholars and scientists who study ancient Arabia widely agree that the climate and hydrology of the Arabian peninsula has been fairly stable for 3000 years. We know this. Certainly there has been some modern reallocation of water resources into major population centers, but these are regional in scale and on the whole remain fairly limited. The overall big-picture of fertility along the western side of the peninsula around the al-Sarat mountains remains unchanged from thousands of years ago. To this day, something like 70-80% of Saudi Arabia's population is located in the narrow stip of fertility along the western mountains, much as it was 2500 years ago.
"There are so many problems with these claims. This has been so heavily debunked I am experiencing second hand embarassment now."
You should have first hand embarrassment over your own ignorant comments.
That's right, and he smells like pee too.@@mormonarchaeology4941
You guys DO know Joseph Smith’s roommate at Dartmouth was a transfer student from Saudi Arabia, right?
Are you tryna throw shade?
The grave was there. Thats a LOT of trouble to go through to fabricate something that bankrupted the guy many times over.
Lol! 🤣
Was the student from nahom? Or lived close by?
@@user-to8cd9ty4d Good point, Saudi Arabia is huge, and the 'student' would have been eighteen years old.
Joseph Smith never attended any college, let alone Dartmouth. Hyrum attained a charity school associated with Dartmouth when he was 11 years old.
Oh, please. What a stretch. Those two names were common in the Middle East.
It’s just wordplay, it proves nothing, it’s just one word. We need real physical evidence, artifacts, etc…. We need the smoking gun, where is it?
@@medeekdesignthe Book of Mormon is the smoking gun. Nobody has been able to disprove it in 200 years.
@@mikeboyd3225 The burden of proof is on us. I can write a book tomorrow and claim it is a historical document of any civilization I want on God's green earth but unless I can provide some proof of this claim it is simply a very good story. The same is true for the Book of Mormon. We need actual physical (verifiable) evidence to end this debate once and for all. I don't care for these word game apologetics, the achieve nothing, lots of smoke in the wind.
I wish the Church would come out and clearly state which of the BofM geography theories is the correct one. I like some of the heartland theory but I still think there is something with the Mesoamerican theory. Clearly the hemispheric model is not plausible. I also don't know how one reconciles the whole two Cumorah theory.
@@medeekdesign I imagine if an angel showed up in your bedroom you would still need a smoking gun. You probably also say that there is no evidence for God while, YOU, Your brain and eyes and the earth exist nowhere else in the known universe. There is a faith component that you are missing. Oh, please. pay attention. Or, for the others reading this, Oh please, pay no attention to the mark bunker behind the curtain. He is a wizard you know.
In that case, it should be pretty easy to produce some attestations dated to 600 BC of another person named Ishmael who died at a completely different location called Nahom (or Nehem, Nihm, whatever, just NHM) somewhere in the Middle East. Give it a go and just show us how easy it is to find a coincidence like that. I am sure we would all love to see it.
Nahom is fascinating. But critics insist there isnt any non-LDS archaeologists that will confirm the convergences.
I mean..... that will 100% always be the problem. Critics always say "No one besides BYU thinks X..." Well yeah, because they're likely smart enough to realize the implications. People don't realize that's how academia works. Good inquiries get shut down or don't get funded if they don't agree with or follow along with the current trends that earn money.
Why is no one talking about these scriptures or books coming out that are coming out from different sources contain book of Mormon prophets?
Just curious not being rude, just new to the church, can you give some examples please.
Thank you
How do they make these claims with a straight face?
You have ten accounts. They are all lame.
Alright, I'll bite.
Nehem is NOT a burial site, it is a vast mountain range 160 miles off the Red Sea coast separated by impassable mountain ranges. It would me straight up impossible to head east AFTER passing Nehem because the stretch of land is extremely nasty. It is an impossible location.
And then getting into the language, the H and M characters in Nehem the place DO NOT match with the NHM on the altars, nor do they match with the NHM in the hebrew word "nacham" that's being referenced as a potential "word play" with the word "mourn" in the text of the BOM. There are about 4 distinct arabic letters/sounds which get clumsily described as H in English, but in the original language these are distinct letters as different as A and Z. The word "nachom" in hebrew is completely different than "nahom." Just as different as "nazom".
So you have some burial sites, literally thousands of them scattered all over the country, everywhere, found a tombstone at one location (not in Nehem) which bears the 3 characters NHM (which also don’t match the NHM characters used in the place name Nehem), and the Nehem location is completely at odds with the BOM text in terms of terrain and geography, but somehow all this is a correlation?
And then there is the "nearly eastward" business. Pick a spot literally anywhere in the Yemen, and in many parts of Saudi Arabia for that matter, head "eastward" and you'll end up at some coastline. About 1600 miles of coastline to work with. There is nothing special about vaguely saying, go south along the coast, turn east at some unspecified location, and then arrive at some other unspecified location where you can build a boat. This isn't a correlation.
The dating. The NHM altars are irrelevant for the aforementioned reasons, but nonetheless, the dating isn't credible. The altars were not dated through scientific means like radiation, etc. In context, the original dating was literally just a guesstimate based on the expertise of the german archaeologist. And that guy places the stones likely AFTER Nephi. And then the subsequent “researcher,” Aston, who pushed the dates back used even worse methodologies than the original guy. Aston isn’t a credible archaeologist, he writes conspiracy books on UFOs! Can't make this stuff up.
Adding to all this are other things I could say. There are a lot of Jewish ruins in Yemen, symbols all over the place. It is my opinion that the area name Nehem comes from Nehemia the Jewish prophet / historical figure, who was a big deal 5th century BC. See the Book of Nehemia. If Nehem is a reference to Nehemia, which would make a lot of sense, that is after Nephi.
If this is the best evidence for the BoM vs the thousands of evidences against it, I say that you follow a blind faith and are believing in vain. Even The Simpsons predicts things correctly on a whim, but this is not a case similar to that.
But let me just leave this:
- Do NOT add or subtract from the Bible: Deut 4:2, Gal 1:8-9, 1 Corinth 15:2, Rev 22:18
- Beware of false prophets: Matthew 7:15, Jeremiah 23:16, 2 Peter 2:1, Deut 18:21-22, Matthew 24:24
- Salvation by faith alone: John 3:16, John 3:36, Eph 2:8-10, 1 Corinth 15:2
Don't hold your breath waiting for a cogent response.
Oh you're sooo reluctant. 🙄
The scripture quotes of which I shall focus my remarks on,
-Do not add or subtract from the Bible
First thing is that the Bible as we now it did not exist in the past. The word Bible means books. The Bible itself is a compilation of records containing history, prophocies, revelations, the old and new covenant God made with his people, the gospel of Jesus Christ, books of hymns of praise and worship, books of teachings and the writings of some of the prophets and apostles, their witness and testimony of God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, the epistles to the the churches established by the apostles in their day. All in all it's record deaks with God's dealing with his children and shows us what men must do to gain peace in this life and eternal life in the life to come through his only begotten Son Jesus Christ and his eternal sacrifice for the salvation of his children.
Each book, or books where written independently and never as one book. The record a have been gethered and compiled together at verious times since the days of Adam.
If you stand by what you are saying with your understanding then everything after Deuteronomy would be adding to the Bible. All the prophets who came after would be added to. Then the New covenant commonly called the New Testament would again be added to. Hopefully you can see where this is heading. The Book of Revelation was written before the Testimony of John according historical records. So that would make St John's testimony of the gospel, adding to the scriptures. When Christ gave a new commandment,
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:34
Would be adding to, but it was not adding but this commandment was new unto them, for the whole law and the prophets is based upon first and foremost loving God and second loving your neighbor as yourself. See Matt 22:36-40
Now because what you have stated is incorrect let the scriptures speak for themselves for they are given in plainnes for our understanding.
Now with this brief understanding let's get to it.
The scriptures say Deu 4:2
"YE SHALL NOT ADD UNTO THE WORD WHICH I COMMAND YOU , neither shall ye diminish ought from it, THAT YE MAY KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of the Lord your God which I command you."
It is plain to the understanding that the Lord said "YE SHALL NOT ADD UNTO THE WORD WHICH I COMMAND YOU " so his people could "KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."
God didn't say he will not give more or his words for he said "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isaiah 28:9-10
" It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."Matt 4:4
" How that BY REVELATION he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
WHICH IN OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; " Ephe 3:3-5
Here is the testimony of three, witnessing to the truth of ongoing revelation from God. That God doesn't give all his words at once and he will yet reveal more or his words and the unfolding of his mysteries to the children of men through his chosen prophets and apostles by his spirit. The passage in Gal is referring to adding to his commandments and in the Book of Revelation is referring to adding or taking away from the prophocies of that book. It is not pertaining to the Bible, it is pertaining to that specific book. For the Bible wasn't compiled together as we know it today. And the revelation says "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK , If any man SHALL ADD UNTO THESE THING'S, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away FROM THE WORDS OF the book of THIS PROPHECY , ... " Rev 22:18-19
1 Cor 15:1-2" Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you.. "
This is self evident that only through living the gospel and enduring to the end which is to" hold fast" can we be saved by and through Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:6-9,
"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again, IF ANYONE PREACHES ANY OTHER GOSPEL to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."
Now I ask, what is the gospel? For the apostle Paul was preaching to the saints in Galatia who had turned away from Christ to follow a different gospel. So what is the gospel? I'll appeal to the Book of Mormon which is another testiment of Jesus Christ to answer the question.
In the Book of 3 Nephi 27:23-21 Jesus Christ himself gives us the answer as he ministered unto the seed of Joseph and Judah who had been scattered and separated from their brethren in fulfilling of other prophocies. And it reads,
"Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and THIS IS THE GOSPEL which I have given unto you-THAT I CAME INTO THE WORLD TO DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER, BECAUSE MY FATHER SENT ME.
14 And MY FATHER SENT ME THAT I MIGHT BE LIFTED UP UPON THE CROSS; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that WHOSO REPENTETH AND IS BAPTIZED IN MY NAME SHALL BE FILLED; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest SAVE it be those WHO HAVE WASHED THEIR GARMENTS IN MY BLOOD , BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH, and the REPENTANCE of all their sins, and their FAITHFULNESS UNTO THE END.
20 Now THIS IS THE COMMANDMENT: REPENT, all ye ends of the earth, and COME UNTO ME AND BE BAPTIZED IN MY NAME, THAT YE MAY BE SANCTIFIED BY THE RECEPTION OF THE HOLY GHOST, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, THIS IS MY GOSPEL; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;"
Now, is not this the gospel of Jesus Christ? Is not this what the writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John testified of in their testimonies to the gospel? This is the same gospel of Jesus Christ which was preached, since the beginning of the world which shall be preached in the ending thereof. For the scriptures testify that "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matt 24:14
Paul also testified that this same gospel was preached to ancient ISRAEL as made known in his preaching to the Hebrews, for he said, "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED TO US AS WELL AS TO THEM; . .." Heb 4:1-2
Now you can see and judge for yourself that this same gospel which is preached in the Book of Mormon is the same gospel preached in the Bible.
So now as the scriptures are before you, beware that you condemn not the things of God, for in so doing they shall stand as a bright witness against you in the day of judgment.
I'll close on this, Joseph Smith is the prophet of the restoration of the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ restored back to the earth. Through him God has restored his holy priesthood and keys and setup his kingdom again upon the to prepare us for the second coming of the Messiah. This is the stone cut out of the mountain without hands which Daniel saw and prophocied of, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I would encourage you to prayerfully read the Book of Mormon and ponder it's message and then go forth in faith and ask of God in the name of Jesus Christ if it is true. I promise you that if you do ask in faith, with real intent he will manifest it's truth unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. Ask of God and not men. What did Jesus teach us? to "ask of God" and he desires us to ask, seek and knock. Remember what he said unto his disciples,
"Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full..." John 16:24
Remember, "ye shall know them by their fruit." If the fruit is good then the tree is good! The Book of Mormon is the fruit of the prophet Joseph Smith. Tast the fruit for yourself and compare it to the fruit of the Bible and you will see it's the same fruit. 🙏🏽
@@rock5948 Ah, thanks. But if the fruit of all that is Masonic handshakes and passwords and celestial polygamy......no thanks.
@@rock5948Amen 🙌
Ya’ll need to get Bruce Porter on the show
He is too Egyptian centric. He would claim the Nephites are somehow Egyptian.
Well… as supposed descendants of Joseph and Asenath - his Egyptian wife - then, yes, they would have been “somehow Egyptian,” by default. How much of that culture would have been present in their culture, beyond a knowledge of the written language (because the claim is that it’s Reformed Egyptian characters that fill the plates), we have no real clues.
If there was a trail why’d they need a compass
To hunt game and collect berries and find water and avoid bandits. There were also many different trails running parallel with each other
It wasn't a compass, but a spherical I-pad of sorts, as i imagine it. It had pointers and written messages on it at the appropriate times. Lets just call it a tangible Holy Ghost for those lacking in faith in the group of travelers. IMHO
@gxgx1190
There is a difference between a compass which points the way in which you are going... and the director which points which way you are to go. One is made of man's hands... the other is made from God's!!!
The trail is not a road. It's more of a series of fresh water accesses that head in a much broader general direction.
WARD RADIO!!!❤❤❤❤ Did you hear about the geneticist who found out National Cultural genetic markers do not stay in the blood After a long time. But family Genetic markers do for a little longer.!!! Bro I had that Theory when I was a kid When I first heard their whole Jewish Native American disconnect 😂 It was a study about the Ukrainian Irish connection bloodlines.
Hard take… we will never have definitive evidence proving the Book of Mormon. That would be too easy for those ready to believe and to condemning for those that refuse to believe. Just my two cents.
Where are the reformed Egyptian texts or physical evidence of such in the new world? That would be proof, all of this Nahom stuff is just coincidental, let’s be real. Word play doesn’t constitute hard evidence.
Chiapa de Corzo cylinder seal is a likely example. Other evidence is the Maya day names meaning matches sequentially the Egyptian phonetic glyphs. And three of them also correspond sequentially with Hebrew alphabet. Actual religious Nephites were a very small group in Mesoamerica, so these types of trace evidence is all that would be expected.
'Coincidental' is a lame word used by Anti-Mormons who have no argument.
@@jerrygrover8992 The BofM speaks of no other major groups, so one would assume that they were the major civilization in their local proximity. Tiny coincidental similarities provide no concrete proof of anything. We should be seeing much more concrete examples of parallels between the written languages of the Mayans and Egyptian and Hebrew, they are simply not there. So my conclusion is that the Mayans civilization was most certainly not the Nephites. Where do we look next? I am now investigating the heartland model with some interest, however we don't seem to have a literate civilization in that geographic region. BofM geography is hard.
@@medeekdesign one shouldn't assume, right?
@@maestrophil What would lead us to assume otherwise?
Why are you recycling apologetics that were debunked several years ago? If this is the best evidence you have for the Book of Mormon, it is truly depressing.
Hey there truth seeker. 2 timothy 3:7 Trolling does not constitute seeking anything.
Hebrew Altars are not made of hewn stone.
They never said the alters were hewbrew, they simply said in the area there was a tribe called Naham and it was their alters. Lehi and company were merely passing through and Ishmael died there and so they buried him and the happens to also be a Stele from that time period with that same name.
The book of Mormon tells us that Lehigh made an altar of stones p in the valley of Lemuel to make sacrifice p to make sacrifice unto the god of Abraham there is no there is no mention of him building an altar of stones where Ishmael was buried the altar that was found at n a h o m in Yemen was not Hebrew but the writings mention the tribe of n a h o m three times which proves there was a tribe of desert dwellers there call the n a h o m tribe in the book of Mormon says that this place had already been named buy some group of people that live there show The book of Mormon is accurate and it coincides exactly with what the modern-day archaeologists have found on the inscriptions at the Semitic Temple at m a r i b this fact strongly indicates and whoever wrote the book of Mormon had actually traveled through that country at that time in ancient history meaning 600 years before Christ evidence of this kind in a court of law is regarded as first class evidence that carries a great deal of weight in establishing truth and fact
@@ClarkPrice-xc1ul yes, loose stone not hwen stone:
Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
All the alters in Mesoamerica are polluted. The Nephite alter and other Alters found at Adam-ondi-Ahman are not polluted made of loose stone.
My prediction: Kris Murphy getting baptized 2028. Mark my words!
This is ridiculous. What a bunch of clowns. Keep deluding yourselves.
Womp womp
So the best evidence for the BOM is, outside the americas? Way to show how pathetic the BOM truth claims actually are.
Go away
@@wes2176 Oh look who's on the defensive now. your knees must be buckling pretty hard. You, like the rest of your mormon friends are all talk because the evidence does not support your claims. When faced with a legitimate opponent, you run away like cowards.
@@sertinduhm6378 Aw, did my shortness with you hurt your wittle feewings?
@@sertinduhm6378 Your anger is my testimony.
@@wes2176 what do you mean by that? cause if it means what I think it means, you need to see a doctor.
Evangelicals dont talk about the resurrection as much as the latterdsy saints is because if their loved ones dont confess Jesus Christ they believe they are going to hell latterday saints rejoice in the resurrection because we all are going to heaven
I don't mind Josh and Jerry's Old World research but their New World research is pretty lame and uninspired.
Please be specific as to which research is "lame" and why. I am always happy to update my research on the online version of my books and research based on accurate and reliable input.
@@jerrygrover8992 turning horses into tapirs and a non-Israelite culture into an Israelite one that violates the Law of Moses. Hugh Nibley didn't agree that the Book of Mormon people went south of the Rio Grande. The way you pseudointellectuals try and second guess and twist many of the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith is just uninspiring.
@@user-yr9lt7dz8k You haven't read my research. It is free to read on the internet. Best to read it before commenting on it, otherwise it is just basic trolling. I have made none of those statements in any of my research.
Why doesn’t the DNA evidence support the BofM, how can we change that. What is the real truth, let the cards fall as they may.
2 timothy 3:7 Keep searching my friend. Oh, but it's right here under your nose. You decide of coarse. Trolling doesn't become us.