Great explanation, it seems to me the best fitting method of flow control to an E61. Not a precision instrument but adding a rather charming character to espresso extraction with an E61, just like the E61 itself is not built for precision but for charming character.
Great video! I would only add that with certain machines (such as the Lelit Mara X, which I own) the original water debit (pump flow rate) with no resistance is really low at around 5ml/s and that limits the potential profiling. Combined with the natural slow ramp that pump also has it makes flow profiling almost worthless at least to me.
Set flow rate to around 2.5ml/s, start shot, if you got your grind correct pressure will slowly rise and top out at around 5-7 bar, pressure will then start to slowly drop but your flow rate will remain consistent, stop shot at desired volume and enjoy your Lazyboy. I've been doing this for over a month, I make small adjustments if it looks like I've dialled in a little too fine, just open it up a few mm and it will fix it instantly, overall I never go above 3ml/s now as that appears to be the cutoff for meaningful flow profiling as the group head matches the pump pressure as quickly as at 7ml/s. This has been conformed by a friend with a Profitec 600, I'm running an ECM Classika II. Thanks as always for the thought provoking videos. Oh and yes, 100% worth it.
So you never extract at the recommended 9.0Bar for espressoz by being always within 5-7 bars? If so, why? I agree though that there is very little margin with that flow thing and as soon as you go a little too high it instantly ramps up to pump pressure therefore being meaningless.
@@PanzerIV88 because I’m using low flow to generate the pressure profile for me. We’ve also only started getting hard data on brew group pressure in recent years thanks to the DE1, when the Italian espresso mafia put the rules in place they were going off historical data and it assumes Italian line pressure to be good, which it famously isn’t. Their system is antiquated and in dire need of major repairs, don’t take my word for it, google is your friend.
This is definitely the best description of how flow control works! Great video. I've attempted to describe it previously to others in a similar way. Let me know if this sounds right. Basically you have control over the flow rate, but not pressure directly. Max pressure is limited by the resistance of the coffee bed and then the OPV or Pumps max pressure setting. The pressure is not easy to precisely control because it either is going up or down, if the flow rate going into the coffee bed is higher than the flow rate coming OUT into the cup then you'll have pressure building, if the flow rate going into the coffee is lower than the flow going OUT to the cup then the pressure will be dropping, and I find the range between the two settings (where you are lowering or raising the pressure) is a very small range (so I think the Lelit Bianca, which I've never personally used, with a more limited range paddle, might actually have an advantage here over most other E61 flow control kits/knobs).
Thanks for your explanation about flow control. Wondering what the taste difference between e61 flow control and manual lever flow control uses the same recipe. I think on the manual lever it's a bit difficult to do decline recipe.
Great video!! It would be awesome if you could make a video on guidelines for different profiles. WLL made a video that flashed up profile graphs for fresh roasts, dark roasts, lever profile, sweet bump... But it was overly generic and the graphs don't actually translate well at home. You mentioned controlling flow to gently get the puck started, and to react to the puck deteriorating... What does this look like in practice? Thank you again
Yeah I'd like to know more about the how to help the puck at the beginning AND toward the end, how does it translate exactly to the use of the flow handle as I got one on my R58 and it doesn't seem to be doing much if anything. I tried some of the flow profiles from WLL and like you said it really doesn't translate well at home. Looks super easy and useful in bus video but then you try it and ur like "Wtf that's BS! That was a way overpriced adapter, should have gotten a thermometer instead!".
Engineer ring is on so class is in session. Great work! I'd say you could get pretty close to flow profiling with the E61 flow control, a Bluetooth scale, and SEP. But it would be a lot to monitor flow rate, pressure, time, and weight in cup repeatably. Coming from manual levers (and this probably holds with E61 flow control), I definitely preferred declining pressure shots but didn't try to exactly replicate profiles, and shots were generally good with no way to pinpoint how some shots turned out great. With the DE1 I do feel I am pinpointing things to incrementally make each shot better
Yes! Somebody noticed!!! Haha I had a whole intro shot of putting the ring on, but thought it was a little much. Great point about adding on a Bluetooth scale and SEP, that absolutely helps get the most out of what these systems can control
@@LifestyleLab_ Another Canadian Engineer here. Years ago, after asking my optometrist a bunch of questions, he said “Engineer, right? Don’t take this the wrong way but you guys are all the same”! I took it as a compliment and so should you. Love your videos. Well explained!
I think a flow control system should be paired with group head pressure gage to have feed back on what is going on. And It will be more useful for rotary pumps machines since they have higher flow rate and fast ramp up to 9 bar.
I do agree that having a pressure gauge installed is almost a necessity when using an E61 flow control knob. That will show you how touchy the adjustment sometimes is, and also how unresponsive it sometimes is
@@LifestyleLab_ I agree, it is very difficult to think of it as pressure profile and you will be lost. However, you need to think of it as only flow profile then you can get great results. Slow ramp up, or slow ramp down. Slyer shot and other great (flow profiles).
Good discussion. The only correct and sensible way to control pressure is at the PUMP. This is not a trivial engineering task. The standard rotary pump buried inside commercial machines is manually adjustable for bypass with a screw, what good is that. The Ulka pumps can be electronically controlled with a dimmer type control why bother with a $30 buzzer pump. Currently today there does not exist any customized pump with a stepper motor bypass valve that can be remotely controlled. Maybe I'll invent one.
Thank you very much, that helps a lot to understand that this some kind of indirect influence on the pressure flow. I would have loved to see a concrete example of you using it - and what effects can be achieved ;-)
The best explanation! I was wondering to instal one on my Cinquantotto, now I'm going to instal it. I just like to see, some tips in how to use it. :) Thanks for your content!
Excellent summary, I found an article years ago with similar content but there are a lot of less accurate opinions out there. I appreciate that e61 flow control will sometimes allow me to save a shot if my grind is a bit off.
Incredibly good. keep iy technical I love the detail we can always google generic advice, but technical advice is always best in a video and I love the detail. Going from high level to detail level back to high-level very good teaching method Thank you.
Thanks for this, just gave a follow. I have a few hypotheses/questions (noobie here so take with grain of salt): I'm making the assumption e61 group machines maintain a constant pressure no matter the resistance at the puck. Is this correct? Seems based on what you're saying that less pressure at the group head due to less flow (this is how I interpreted what you said) would not really be so much of an issue if, in fact, the resistance (grounds) is being reduced as time goes on. Why would you want to maintain pressure at the group head when the resistance is being diminished due to extraction? Is this a common desire? What you're saying is that maintaining pressure at the group head WITH lower flow is more ideal than less pressure less flow? Isn't that impossible as theres a mathematical relationship b/w flow and pressure and in theory they should both be reduced with flow control. I would hypothesize that in order to maintain pressure at the group head you would need to have increasing amounts of flow as the grounds degrade? If my assumptions are correct in that theres a mathematical relationship in place between flow and pressure then controlling the variables independently wouldn't be very valuable b/c to maintain flow at the head you would only need to reduce pressure which is what the flow control device should be theoretically doing (and my understanding is it comes with a gauge). Again, major grain of salt as I'm a noob and also not a physics person. Great content, thanks!
You are correct in that trying to maintain a continuous pressure at the group is not a desirable or common thing. What is usually desired is to maintain a constant flow rate into the cup. This cannot be done one a machine without flow control, as the machine will always produce a constant flow rate up until it hits a pressure limit. So as the puck degrades, the flow will naturally increase. With a flow controlled machine, you can taper this off to maintain flow as the resistance begins to decrease throughout the shot
Totally agree - coffee nerds creators do not talk about the flow profiling is just a guess especially as no one talks about the coffee has on the profile
I love the general idea, but I would love to be able to see both the brewing temperature as well as the pressure build up. Both is unfortunately not possible with my Appartamento and temperature fluctuates too much from shot to shot that I would take out my the grouphead thermometer. I know you could also do a workaround by using a bluetooth scale and shot profiling app to see how flow rate changes over time, but for me that is too much crazyness. I would rather buy a Linea Mini in a few years and do the needle mod and then have a very nice tactile brewing experience.
Super helpful description, definitely worth a thumbs up! An espresso machine salesman told me that Flow control wasn't a good addition on a Heat Exchange machine as compared to a dual boiler. I am curious if anyone might know what the difference could be if any if both machines had an E61 head. Thanks!
He’s likely implying that there would be an impact to thermal stability. If you limit from through the heat exchanger, the water will reach a higher temperature than anticipated. A dual boiler wouldn’t experience the same issue as the brew water is independent and always the same temperature
this being the case, if we have a pressure gauge placed on the group, then we can see what the pressure is in the "P2" zone (according to the diagram)?
As a reactive tool - paired with a feedback-showing pressure gauge - the valve under the flow control knob could be easyer to use with "large range movements" (thinking about Coffee Sensor kit with its multi rotation movements from wide open to complete shut), or with "small range movements" (thinking about the Lelit-like valve with its bulcky paddle which movements are limited by the machine's front panel) ? (Maybe it could be a matter of valve's screw pitch...)
So ... does lelit bianka v3 with the programming low flow and an accurate programmable pump pressure gets better results or closer to what you were saying that E61's doesn't do ?
I think there's a bit of a confusion about physics here. The decent is not a bit more 'true' flow or pressure profiler as this needle valve solution. It doesn't bend physics, it just presents itself as it if it did. It is the same reaction based system. There's a max pressure and a max flow rate that are roughly the same (or can be set to be the same) on an e61 and the decent. It doesn't matter if you change the pump pressure or the flow rate, the result will be the exact same as they are 100% correlated to each other. Yes the decent does everything automated, but if you follow a set pressure and/or flow profile on an e61, you will get to the exact same result just manually and undeniably less precisely and with less repetability
I never claimed the Decent bends physics. All this video is stating is that you can’t put the flow control knob in one position and expect a certain flow rate. You have no way of know what flow rate is going into the puck, you can only react to the pressure, and the espresso flow into the cup. That is what is mean when I say this kind of control is not “direct”. The flow can change without input to the knob.
Minor changes in flow doesn’t affect the puck because it’s resistance to flow. If pressure and flow are into linked, and you can cycle the pump on and off without discharging the pressure, just activate the pump a couple of times infusion.
If you study the water debit at different position of the paddle, you can measure how much water flows. Then with feedback of the pressure build up when there is an espresso puck. You know if the grind is coarse or fine if the pressure is not ideal. Even Slayer has a pre brew water valve at lower flow rate. So like Lelit has found a more engage flow - pressure profiling. Thank you.
Maybe I am a simple guy. The Decent machine I am sure is amazing. Being able to to produce amazing shots is probably unparalleled. My issue is with believing anyone, no matter the skill, really understands the relationships of temp to pressure, flow, time of extraction and whatever else the Decent can do. Understanding how to tweak each feature and how they may offset the other settings. Understanding the grinder, temp and timing is enough for me. I can't see how I can knowingly and consistently improve the shot by adding flow control. Maybe if I added it I would be amazed and change my thinking.
The great point of the decent for me is exactly that I don't know all the relationships. I want to learn more about them and understand more about extraction and taste. Its more like a lab tool to experiment with for me.
I agree. Using an E61 machine fills you with vibes of “craftsmanship” - vs. vibes of “technology” - (I’m not saying the Decent isn’t beautifully made, it obviously is. I’m just talking about user experience)
Exactly what Leonard said. But also that I can trust the Decent to be precise on everything as well. With the E61 I don't really know the temperature that the coffee is experiencing, I don't actually know the flow rate, I don't actually know the pressure. The Decent monitors all these and is tested to be quite accurate in them
I really think you have it back to front. If you do not know/understand the relationships between temperature, pressure, flow, time, etc... then you really will benefit from a Decent, because the machine is monitoring and keeping all those elements constant. With a regular espesso machine you NEED to understand those relationships to make repeatable shots as all is controlled manually.
@@motopasky I will turn it around again. With my ECM Synchronika I need to adjust maybe the temp and that is it. The requirement is to grind the beans so the timing is within the range. If I grind accurately and tamp expertly. Then correctly take 18 or 20g and pull a shot within 25 to 30 seconds based on 2:1. I have a mind blowing drink. I know the recipe I suggested can be varied and I don't have flow control on the machine. The Decent offers settings to change the pressure throughout the shot. That alone is crazy stuff. Who really knows how to actively change pressure to get great shots and bring out different flavor notes. I'm sure we all can do it but consistently with different beans. I doubt it. Then vary that with temp, flow, etc. That's a science experiment and not making a drink. I love science experiments but I am sure it would get me frustrated.
Really great video, can you make another one on different profiles with e61 flow control. And why are you having it with thermometer, and not the pressure gauge?
Very interesting thankyou. I have been wondering how best to use grind size and the ability of my leaver machine (a Europicola) to control pressure, preinfusion time and flow rate to get the best coffee. Please, please do a video on that. Thanks Tony
Great video. With pressure gauge between the flow control and the coffee puck providing some feedback, adding a flow control could really increase my coffee game. Especially when it comes to impacting coffee through the bloom stage of extraction. Thanks!
The Bianca has options to automate the pre-infusion with the software, but once into the main extraction there should be no difference in the behaviour. One thing to note is that Lelit has limited the Bianca paddle movement to one full turn, versus these aftermarket kits that can spin multiple rotations (for better or for worse)
Correct me if I am wrong, but you could measure the output, flow, with a bluetooth scale and software as the coffee hits the cup? This might be more accurate than using the gauge on the grouphead?
Just decided to not use the flow control on my quick mill for once. Beans were well dialed in with an e37s, used a 1:2 ratio, no puck screen. The result was excellent and left me wondering, “why continue fussing with this flow control situation?”
Excellent explanation, why don't more people and companies just use lever machines 🤔? Even my local coffee shops have variable flow rate machines but they don't really use it while those that have lever machines are forced to control it. The latter end up making way tastier coffees.
Likely just process flow. Have ANY brew method that requires the barista to be at the machine for the entire duration of the extraction is quite inefficient
Great explanation. What about the needle valve of the Slayer? Is that a good flow control? Or the Rocket R91 has a better flow control? I am trying to decide which machine should I get. Thanks. And any suggestion is very much appreciated.
Slayer control will be similar or identical to this explanation. Primarily useful for long periods-infusions and tapering off. The Rocket R91 is a different animal, closer to the Decent it actively monitors and adjusts flow with a flow monitor
@@LifestyleLab_ Many thanks. Sounds to me that the R91 is the one for me. Is there any other machine with similar (or even better) capability that I am missing? thanks again.
@@marceloaraujo7386 The Rocket R91 is a pretty awesome machine, absolute beast, but also lots of control... best of both worlds. SCG is price matching: seattle-coffee-gear.sjv.io/3P3JyA
I really like it too, Rocket always gets it right on the appearance and build quality front. I know the folks at SCG personally so definitely check out the link if you’re looking to pull the trigger! Their after sales support is stellar
At 6:45 into the video you mention that with an E61 Flow Control Device, you don't have control of the flow at all times. This sounds a bit misleading when comparing it to the Decent. Granted I don't have a Decent. With the E61 grouphead, as the puck provides resistance to the water flow,, the water can either make it's way through the puck, or be backed up where it will start filling the water passage area between the flow control device and the puck. In cases of total choking of the machine, the water will end up pushing the air out of the OPV valve, along with some water to relieve the built up pressure. I don't see how this functions any differently than a Decent or any other flow control machine like the Heylo or Mina, which also don't use the E61 grouphead.
I think you answered your own question in a way. Once a manual machine reaches the OPV pressure OR maximum from for the pump, changing the aperture size has zero impact on the flow dynamics. On the Decent, if you tell it get give more flow, it will give more flow. Regardless of pressure (until reaching a totally unsafe level of course). More useful, it can continue with a very slow flow state indefinitely. As also monitored, you CAN achieve very similar shots with an E61 flow control to the Decent, but it is very difficult as inputs are non linear, and not constant at each position. You’d really need something like the Smart Espresso Profiler pressure gauge to see live data and adapt. Even with that data, you wouldn’t be able to adapt 100s of times per second, or have the flow reaction instantly as on the Decent. Keep an eye out for the meticulous home machine. Another that looks to have the same capabilities as the Decent at a far lower price
My point was that both the E61 and Decent, handle the flow the same. If the puck is fully saturated, chocking, the pump will continue to run, but the water will work its way out through the OPV, if it can’t work it’s way through the puck. The Decent will not continue to allow a constant flow of water through the puck if the puck is providing too much resistance.
Does flow control work on HX? I have read that it doesn't but I think the apartamento is a HX machine. Do you just need to leave the flow/valve open until you're actually ready to brew?
It works perfectly fine, you just need to be conscious of your brew temp because slowing the flow can lead to higher brew temps due to the nature of how heat exchangers heat the brew water
My only issue is that its hard to find such a thing here in my country :/ also I'm using a Domobar VBM so I'm not even sure if all flow rate controllers are made for the same thread
Excellent video! Learned something myself. Would also love to see mention of the OPV valve in the equation. Also as many other comments have pointed out, an exploration on the effect the flow control will have on a heat exchanger machine. I imagine a blooming shot would cause the water to get much hotter
Thanks for the explanation! Been waiting for this video. I’m wondering if you’ve found any fluctuation in temperate with the E61 HX machine? Given that the boiler is pumping out water at steam pressure abs then cooling it as it gets to the group, I’m wondering how adding resistance there might change the temperature mid shot.
Two things: 1) Brew water isn’t at steam temperature and then cooled (unless the machine has been idle for a very long time). The brew water is in a heat exchanger tube that passes through the boiler, the water is not directly FROM the boiler. 2) Yes, limiting the flow like this does cause an increase in brew temperature, but only by a couple degrees. This can be managed through proper flushing / temp monitoring :)
@@LifestyleLab_ got it! I suppose you’re right, the water in the tubes leading to the group is enough to pull a shot without needing to pull more water from the boiler. I read some concerns from people about temp stability, but if you didn’t have issues then I’m definitely nabbing this for my appartamento!
@@jseitz792 in a heat exchanger, brew water is NEVER in the boiler. Take a peek at this diagram! www.chriscoffee.com/blogs/espresso-machine-faq/how-does-a-hx-heat-exchanger-machine-work
Yes, will certainly work on the Rocket Appartamento, that’s what it’s installed on here! Designed to work on Profitec, ECM, Rocket (incl. R58), Lelit Mara/Mara X and other well known brands. Luckily the E61 platform is quite standard
I've also noticed, both with my Coffee Sensor flow control mod kit on my Rocket Machine I had previously and the ECM Flow control on the ECM Synchronika both have a gritty / not so smooth feel to them occasionally, sometimes they're super smooth (usually when the machines cold and it's not even being used). So usage / Feel / Ergonomics wise, it COULD be nicer.
@@LifestyleLab_ I've seen posts with other people mentioning the same thing, but could be due to a tiny amount of scale, it does have to go through a tiny hole. I have cleaned it out previously and soaked it in some citric acid water, because flow rates were being inconsistent but wasn't able to completely open it up, soaking resolved the flow rate issue though. But I believe it was still gritty feeling after that.
Cool video. I really like the illustrations. I do not like the use of "resistance" in these formulas. There is no law for fluids which uses resistance likes this. This looks more like Ohm's Law. The flow of water through a coffee puck would probably more closely follow Darcy's Law for fluid through porous medium. Darcy's law does however still specify flow rate propertional to pressure difference. You could justify calling it a "resistance" if you very specifically said it was a simplification of the real phenomena.
I’d like to see you show what the DE1 uses to control flow rate. The same could be said, It could be the same mechanism but further away from the group head. I’d like to see your diagrams of the tech it uses to back your claims.
The Decent uses two variable rate vibration pumps to control the temperature mix and flow rate, adjusting both hundreds of times per second. That’s the clicking you hear when it’s running :) no needle valves in sight.
@@LifestyleLab_ I like the idea of the decent. I’d only go slayer or decent as my next espresso machine but not anytime soon. A diagram of this would be cool.
John is a great guy and has a lot of long-form videos breaking it down! Short version: th-cam.com/video/iVpuv2MfT00/w-d-xo.html Long version: th-cam.com/video/HtWTT2BSZMI/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for making this! I always wondered why I could change the flow rate visibly without the portafilter but it didn’t seem to translate into a profiling a shot in the same fashion. I thought my flow control valve was defective😂
I think they should be called pressure control, as flow control is a bit of a misnomer. Just got a Profitec Pro 600 with “flow control”. Perfect for use with my home roasted coffee.
i know i have appartamento nera and i undestant the video and how the flow works. But i havent buy a flow valve sinces i have read that dosen’t work woth hx machines.
@@LifestyleLab_ the heat exchange (and the E61 group for that matter) are designed around typical flow rates. If you go too slow (blooming shot) or go too fast (turbo) then you'll not heat the water as the manufacturer expects. Going too slow is extra bad because the E61 group is overheated and the HX goes through the steam boiler I'm curious how this will work on a HX, from a temperature perspective. I see the group thermometer, would be nice to make a video about it and see if it's actually a concern
It certainly has a slight impact on temp if you run VERY slow flow rates, but over a 30-40 second shot we’re taking about a couple degrees, nothing that can’t be compensated for by temp surfing or PID adjustment
Interesting video, got my subbed after watching some other video you did :) However it would be interesting to get a video more in depth as of how to use it correctly because it seems like a waste of money and added layer of complexity that doesn't improve anything other than maybe a placebo effect, when I try to use it on my R58 :/ I have it set with the pressure gauge but I notice how hard it is to lower the pressure once it reaches pump pressure "9 Bars" and that it is super unresponsive and far from being proportional! The only thing I can seem to be able to do is limit the ramp up at the beginning but then like I said, once it goes to 9 bars, if I try to restrict the pressure again, it seems like I almost have to full close it down to 100% to see a change on the gauge, wtf? O_o Thanks for the help!
Got a link? Imo the current manual flow profiler was quite expensive enough to buy seperatly 2 years ago so I wouldn't imagine a digital one. Is it some sort of Kickstarter as there isn't a single store that seems to be selling those.
I really like my E61 with flow control. I don’t have any other machine to compare it to, but using different profiles definitely improves the taste compared to a flat profile. For me, the draw for an E61 machine is entry cost.
Especially with a vibratory pump, why can't you achieve the same result by duty-cycling the pump? Give it a few short bursts at the beginning, not allowing full pressure to build (pre-infusion), then turn in on full-time, and then when the flow starts increasing because of puck extraction, interrupt the pump momentarily a few times to moderate the pressure above the puck.
Because with a 3 way solenoid, the pressure is fully released through the outlet as soon as the pump stops. Doing so creates a lot of disturbance to the puck almost guaranteeing channeling if you were to reintroduce pressure after. All that being said, give it a try! Never know what might work for you and your coffee :)
@@LifestyleLab_ This is not the case with an e61 group head, which has a manually operated three-way valve, not a solenoid operated valve. You have separate control over the valve and the pump.
IMO they make little sense on heat exchangers, as flow rate varies temperature. On a machine with a dedicated brew boiler (be it single or dual) then it makes much more sense.
So your technical breakdown of what the flow control knob does is great, but some of the statements you made are a little off. You said that unlike a decent its not a direct flow control, this is incorrect. It is a direct method of controlling flow, it just won't ever alter pump pressure to compensate for puck resistance.
It is not direct. Direct would imply you can apply a set flow rate, at a set knob position. With these systems, flow is completely independent of knob position in a wide variety of scenarios, including at full pressure, when adjusting the knob position will have almost zero impact on flow until completely closed.
@@LifestyleLab_ I will try explaining another way so you understand. Your argument is its not "direct" because once resistance builds at the puck the flow is limited by the puck and therefore its not direct. If that is your requirement for what constitutes "direct" flow control, a machine with infinite pump pressure would have to exist. As you said, the decent will push up as high as 12 bars to try to meet a flow target that you set. Well if I were to grind Turkish and tamp super hard, and the decent couldn't meet my flow target due to increased puck resistance, according to your definition it is now no longer "direct". In reality, the decent can make flow targets but it is ultimately only varying the pump, which is probably better in many scenarios than simply closing a needle valve as you would do on an e61 with flow control, or a Slayer. However, a needle valve is still the closest possible thing to direct flow control that exists, whether you believe it is better or worse is a separate debate. The decent varies pump vibration speed to try to achieve a flow target that you tell it to. John actually has a good video explaining this on the decent channel.
That is not my definition of direct. My definition of direct is being able to give the machine an input and get a known output. You cannot place the flow control knob in a certain position and get a known flow rate. Therefore it is not a direct 1:1 input. With the knob in a fixed position, the flow rate into the puck with vary.
@@LifestyleLab_ your reply proves my point. Getting a known output of flow from any level of resistance would require a pump with infinite pressure. What you’re calling direct is actually telling the machine “vary the pressure from 0-12 bars to try to get as close to X flow through the puck as possible” It is if anything less direct, and more automatic. You can also just tell a decent what pressure you want, and the flow will be what it will be based on grind size, dose, etc… Also, you’re talking about the knob in a fixed position not giving a fixed flow rate to the puck, that’s wrong. It is giving a fixed flow rate and pressure *to* the puck, what isn’t fixed is how much flows *through* the puck, because that’s based on grind and dose. So yeah, it’s good that you put a nice breakdown of how the device works but some of your other statements are erroneous.
False. At a fixed position, there is not always fixed flow to the puck. The flow is dependent on the pressure in the group head. If I start with a 5mL/s flow and no pressure in the group head, the flow will slow as pressure builds, even without touching the control knob. See the equation and notes at 4:50. I think you may be mixing up flow to the puck with flow through the puck. Flow control is referring to controlling the flow rate TO the puck, not into the cup I also never said at any level of resistance. I’m speaking within the operating range of each machine (before the relief valve is opened)
I got one recently and I removed it a few days after the installation. The needle is too thick, and the hole of the gicleur is so big, even bigger than the original one built in the machine, this makes the water control part became meaningless.
Espresso extraction flow rate 1.5ml-2ml/s is only achievable on Decent, most of machines will accelerate after 15 seconds or so, results in gusher flow, before your video, I had this question for long time that whether E61 pressure reading on the group head is real puck pressure reading or it was created by the value that controls the flow, the resistance from this value causes pressure and that's the reading we see on the gauge.
so lets say the coffee machine has a fixed 9 bar pressure always....when you use this flow control you will still have 9 bar pressure but just slow down the water flow ?
The maximum pressure achievable will still be 9 bar, yes. How slowly or quickly you reach that steady state can be modulated with this, as well as how gently you back away from 9 bar towards the end of the shot
E61 Flow Control Kit: geni.us/VgfzTA
Rocket Appartamento: geni.us/q5Wz
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Best explanation of flow and pressure relationship, something no one else seems to understand or explain! Well done. Makes so much sense.
If you were my physics teacher I think I would have actually passed. This explanation was awesome!!!
Lol, brought back my Physics courses. I even paused the video to examine the calculations shown!
He is an engineer…
Physics is either your best friend, or your worst enemy.
Great video as always!
Great explanation, it seems to me the best fitting method of flow control to an E61. Not a precision instrument but adding a rather charming character to espresso extraction with an E61, just like the E61 itself is not built for precision but for charming character.
Well said
You are one of the best at explaining something period. I could listen to you all day, every day!
As a engineer, I appreciate this level of detail explanation. Thank you!
Great video! I would only add that with certain machines (such as the Lelit Mara X, which I own) the original water debit (pump flow rate) with no resistance is really low at around 5ml/s and that limits the potential profiling. Combined with the natural slow ramp that pump also has it makes flow profiling almost worthless at least to me.
Just purchased a LUCCA M58 with flow control. I appreciate your detailed explanation.
Set flow rate to around 2.5ml/s, start shot, if you got your grind correct pressure will slowly rise and top out at around 5-7 bar, pressure will then start to slowly drop but your flow rate will remain consistent, stop shot at desired volume and enjoy your Lazyboy.
I've been doing this for over a month, I make small adjustments if it looks like I've dialled in a little too fine, just open it up a few mm and it will fix it instantly, overall I never go above 3ml/s now as that appears to be the cutoff for meaningful flow profiling as the group head matches the pump pressure as quickly as at 7ml/s. This has been conformed by a friend with a Profitec 600, I'm running an ECM Classika II.
Thanks as always for the thought provoking videos. Oh and yes, 100% worth it.
So you never extract at the recommended 9.0Bar for espressoz by being always within 5-7 bars? If so, why?
I agree though that there is very little margin with that flow thing and as soon as you go a little too high it instantly ramps up to pump pressure therefore being meaningless.
@@PanzerIV88 because I’m using low flow to generate the pressure profile for me.
We’ve also only started getting hard data on brew group pressure in recent years thanks to the DE1, when the Italian espresso mafia put the rules in place they were going off historical data and it assumes Italian line pressure to be good, which it famously isn’t. Their system is antiquated and in dire need of major repairs, don’t take my word for it, google is your friend.
Your videos are always intuitive and helpful
Great explanation! Thank you.
This is definitely the best description of how flow control works! Great video.
I've attempted to describe it previously to others in a similar way. Let me know if this sounds right.
Basically you have control over the flow rate, but not pressure directly. Max pressure is limited by the resistance of the coffee bed and then the OPV or Pumps max pressure setting. The pressure is not easy to precisely control because it either is going up or down, if the flow rate going into the coffee bed is higher than the flow rate coming OUT into the cup then you'll have pressure building, if the flow rate going into the coffee is lower than the flow going OUT to the cup then the pressure will be dropping, and I find the range between the two settings (where you are lowering or raising the pressure) is a very small range (so I think the Lelit Bianca, which I've never personally used, with a more limited range paddle, might actually have an advantage here over most other E61 flow control kits/knobs).
Would love to see a part 2 video where you lay out how the flow control changes the taste of a couple different beans and roast levels.
Whole Latte Love has done a handful of videos on this.
Good explanation. I love my Coffee Sensor flow control on my Profitec Pro 600.
Excellent overview and about the best explanation I’ve seen 👏
Very expressive! Like the simple picture, easy to understanding the priciple:)
Thanks for your explanation about flow control. Wondering what the taste difference between e61 flow control and manual lever flow control uses the same recipe. I think on the manual lever it's a bit difficult to do decline recipe.
Great video!! It would be awesome if you could make a video on guidelines for different profiles. WLL made a video that flashed up profile graphs for fresh roasts, dark roasts, lever profile, sweet bump... But it was overly generic and the graphs don't actually translate well at home. You mentioned controlling flow to gently get the puck started, and to react to the puck deteriorating... What does this look like in practice? Thank you again
Yeah I'd like to know more about the how to help the puck at the beginning AND toward the end, how does it translate exactly to the use of the flow handle as I got one on my R58 and it doesn't seem to be doing much if anything.
I tried some of the flow profiles from WLL and like you said it really doesn't translate well at home. Looks super easy and useful in bus video but then you try it and ur like "Wtf that's BS! That was a way overpriced adapter, should have gotten a thermometer instead!".
@@PanzerIV88 exactly! Glad I'm not alone
Engineer ring is on so class is in session. Great work! I'd say you could get pretty close to flow profiling with the E61 flow control, a Bluetooth scale, and SEP. But it would be a lot to monitor flow rate, pressure, time, and weight in cup repeatably. Coming from manual levers (and this probably holds with E61 flow control), I definitely preferred declining pressure shots but didn't try to exactly replicate profiles, and shots were generally good with no way to pinpoint how some shots turned out great. With the DE1 I do feel I am pinpointing things to incrementally make each shot better
Yes! Somebody noticed!!! Haha
I had a whole intro shot of putting the ring on, but thought it was a little much.
Great point about adding on a Bluetooth scale and SEP, that absolutely helps get the most out of what these systems can control
@@LifestyleLab_ What's SEP?
@@ekjellgren Dunno but I'd also like to know! I currently have an Acaia Lunar scale if it can do it.
Smart Espresso Profiler!
It’s a free app that connects to Bluetooth scales to give you live flow graphs :)
@@LifestyleLab_ Another Canadian Engineer here. Years ago, after asking my optometrist a bunch of questions, he said “Engineer, right? Don’t take this the wrong way but you guys are all the same”! I took it as a compliment and so should you. Love your videos. Well explained!
I think a flow control system should be paired with group head pressure gage to have feed back on what is going on. And It will be more useful for rotary pumps machines since they have higher flow rate and fast ramp up to 9 bar.
I do agree that having a pressure gauge installed is almost a necessity when using an E61 flow control knob. That will show you how touchy the adjustment sometimes is, and also how unresponsive it sometimes is
@@LifestyleLab_ I agree, it is very difficult to think of it as pressure profile and you will be lost. However, you need to think of it as only flow profile then you can get great results. Slow ramp up, or slow ramp down. Slyer shot and other great (flow profiles).
Good discussion. The only correct and sensible way to control pressure is at the PUMP. This is not a trivial engineering task. The standard rotary pump buried inside commercial machines is manually adjustable for bypass with a screw, what good is that. The Ulka pumps can be electronically controlled with a dimmer type control why bother with a $30 buzzer pump. Currently today there does not exist any customized pump with a stepper motor bypass valve that can be remotely controlled. Maybe I'll invent one.
Thank you so much for this video, I was having pretty bad insomnia, it saved me
Thank you very much, that helps a lot to understand that this some kind of indirect influence on the pressure flow. I would have loved to see a concrete example of you using it - and what effects can be achieved ;-)
Really well explained. Thank you!
This was super useful, thank you for this detailed educational video!
Well done video and explanation and very much appreciated by a new owner of a Puristika with flow control. Thanks.
The best explanation! I was wondering to instal one on my Cinquantotto, now I'm going to instal it.
I just like to see, some tips in how to use it. :)
Thanks for your content!
What a great explanation of flow control! Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent summary, I found an article years ago with similar content but there are a lot of less accurate opinions out there. I appreciate that e61 flow control will sometimes allow me to save a shot if my grind is a bit off.
Incredibly good. keep iy technical I love the detail we can always google generic advice, but technical advice is always best in a video and I love the detail. Going from high level to detail level back to high-level very good teaching method Thank you.
Thanks for this, just gave a follow. I have a few hypotheses/questions (noobie here so take with grain of salt):
I'm making the assumption e61 group machines maintain a constant pressure no matter the resistance at the puck. Is this correct?
Seems based on what you're saying that less pressure at the group head due to less flow (this is how I interpreted what you said) would not really be so much of an issue if, in fact, the resistance (grounds) is being reduced as time goes on.
Why would you want to maintain pressure at the group head when the resistance is being diminished due to extraction? Is this a common desire?
What you're saying is that maintaining pressure at the group head WITH lower flow is more ideal than less pressure less flow? Isn't that impossible as theres a mathematical relationship b/w flow and pressure and in theory they should both be reduced with flow control. I would hypothesize that in order to maintain pressure at the group head you would need to have increasing amounts of flow as the grounds degrade?
If my assumptions are correct in that theres a mathematical relationship in place between flow and pressure then controlling the variables independently wouldn't be very valuable b/c to maintain flow at the head you would only need to reduce pressure which is what the flow control device should be theoretically doing (and my understanding is it comes with a gauge). Again, major grain of salt as I'm a noob and also not a physics person.
Great content, thanks!
You are correct in that trying to maintain a continuous pressure at the group is not a desirable or common thing.
What is usually desired is to maintain a constant flow rate into the cup.
This cannot be done one a machine without flow control, as the machine will always produce a constant flow rate up until it hits a pressure limit. So as the puck degrades, the flow will naturally increase. With a flow controlled machine, you can taper this off to maintain flow as the resistance begins to decrease throughout the shot
absolutely amazing explanation
Totally agree - coffee nerds creators do not talk about the flow profiling is just a guess especially as no one talks about the coffee has on the profile
I love the general idea, but I would love to be able to see both the brewing temperature as well as the pressure build up. Both is unfortunately not possible with my Appartamento and temperature fluctuates too much from shot to shot that I would take out my the grouphead thermometer. I know you could also do a workaround by using a bluetooth scale and shot profiling app to see how flow rate changes over time, but for me that is too much crazyness. I would rather buy a Linea Mini in a few years and do the needle mod and then have a very nice tactile brewing experience.
Yes, if only we could cleanly get a temp probe and pressure probe into group… maybe one day!
just got a new machine. i like trying little things. puck screen scales puck prep, but i am happy with that. but not going down this route.
Very well done. You made it clear
Super helpful description, definitely worth a thumbs up! An espresso machine salesman told me that Flow control wasn't a good addition on a Heat Exchange machine as compared to a dual boiler. I am curious if anyone might know what the difference could be if any if both machines had an E61 head. Thanks!
He’s likely implying that there would be an impact to thermal stability. If you limit from through the heat exchanger, the water will reach a higher temperature than anticipated. A dual boiler wouldn’t experience the same issue as the brew water is independent and always the same temperature
As a science nerd, I LOVE your explanation!
As a science nerd, I appreciate the validation, haha
this being the case, if we have a pressure gauge placed on the group, then we can see what the pressure is in the "P2" zone (according to the diagram)?
Correct :)
if i turn down the pressure to 9 bar, would it affect my pressure for the wand? Thanks
No, this is brewing pressure valve
As a reactive tool - paired with a feedback-showing pressure gauge - the valve under the flow control knob could be easyer to use with "large range movements" (thinking about Coffee Sensor kit with its multi rotation movements from wide open to complete shut), or with "small range movements" (thinking about the Lelit-like valve with its bulcky paddle which movements are limited by the machine's front panel) ?
(Maybe it could be a matter of valve's screw pitch...)
I have an appartamento too. Would a flow control kid be a good alternative to an OPV Mod to bring the pressure down form 12 to 9 bars?
Great video! Very well made!
So ... does lelit bianka v3 with the programming low flow and an accurate programmable pump pressure gets better results or closer to what you were saying that E61's doesn't do ?
So wild you dropped this video because I was just looking into flow control for my ECM Synchronika over the last few days!
No way! Hope it was helpful
Thank you. Can this device damage the machine or tire the vibration pump (Appartamento)?
No, it is safe to use. Whole Latte Love sells many machines with these pre-installed
what do you think about adding flow control to a Diletta Bello Espresso Machine?
I think there's a bit of a confusion about physics here. The decent is not a bit more 'true' flow or pressure profiler as this needle valve solution. It doesn't bend physics, it just presents itself as it if it did. It is the same reaction based system. There's a max pressure and a max flow rate that are roughly the same (or can be set to be the same) on an e61 and the decent. It doesn't matter if you change the pump pressure or the flow rate, the result will be the exact same as they are 100% correlated to each other. Yes the decent does everything automated, but if you follow a set pressure and/or flow profile on an e61, you will get to the exact same result just manually and undeniably less precisely and with less repetability
I never claimed the Decent bends physics. All this video is stating is that you can’t put the flow control knob in one position and expect a certain flow rate. You have no way of know what flow rate is going into the puck, you can only react to the pressure, and the espresso flow into the cup. That is what is mean when I say this kind of control is not “direct”. The flow can change without input to the knob.
Minor changes in flow doesn’t affect the puck because it’s resistance to flow. If pressure and flow are into linked, and you can cycle the pump on and off without discharging the pressure, just activate the pump a couple of times infusion.
If you study the water debit at different position of the paddle, you can measure how much water flows. Then with feedback of the pressure build up when there is an espresso puck. You know if the grind is coarse or fine if the pressure is not ideal. Even Slayer has a pre brew water valve at lower flow rate. So like Lelit has found a more engage flow - pressure profiling. Thank you.
This brother can break it down
= This guy can really explain it in a way that I understand
I’m flattered 🙏
Maybe I am a simple guy. The Decent machine I am sure is amazing. Being able to to produce amazing shots is probably unparalleled. My issue is with believing anyone, no matter the skill, really understands the relationships of temp to pressure, flow, time of extraction and whatever else the Decent can do. Understanding how to tweak each feature and how they may offset the other settings.
Understanding the grinder, temp and timing is enough for me. I can't see how I can knowingly and consistently improve the shot by adding flow control. Maybe if I added it I would be amazed and change my thinking.
The great point of the decent for me is exactly that I don't know all the relationships. I want to learn more about them and understand more about extraction and taste. Its more like a lab tool to experiment with for me.
I agree. Using an E61 machine fills you with vibes of “craftsmanship” - vs. vibes of “technology” - (I’m not saying the Decent isn’t beautifully made, it obviously is. I’m just talking about user experience)
Exactly what Leonard said. But also that I can trust the Decent to be precise on everything as well. With the E61 I don't really know the temperature that the coffee is experiencing, I don't actually know the flow rate, I don't actually know the pressure. The Decent monitors all these and is tested to be quite accurate in them
I really think you have it back to front. If you do not know/understand the relationships between temperature, pressure, flow, time, etc... then you really will benefit from a Decent, because the machine is monitoring and keeping all those elements constant. With a regular espesso machine you NEED to understand those relationships to make repeatable shots as all is controlled manually.
@@motopasky I will turn it around again. With my ECM Synchronika I need to adjust maybe the temp and that is it. The requirement is to grind the beans so the timing is within the range. If I grind accurately and tamp expertly. Then correctly take 18 or 20g and pull a shot within 25 to 30 seconds based on 2:1. I have a mind blowing drink. I know the recipe I suggested can be varied and I don't have flow control on the machine.
The Decent offers settings to change the pressure throughout the shot. That alone is crazy stuff. Who really knows how to actively change pressure to get great shots and bring out different flavor notes. I'm sure we all can do it but consistently with different beans. I doubt it. Then vary that with temp, flow, etc. That's a science experiment and not making a drink. I love science experiments but I am sure it would get me frustrated.
Great video. is that a digital temperature gauge instead of a pressure gauge on the front of the group head?
It is! Absolutely awesome for E61 machines without PID (and even those with)
th-cam.com/video/Vipd_oYGfGw/w-d-xo.html
So easily broken down, another amazing video! 😊
Really great video, can you make another one on different profiles with e61 flow control. And why are you having it with thermometer, and not the pressure gauge?
Is that the mechine change the temperature?
Should I worry to install the flow rate knob with Vibration pump machine
Nope, that’s what this machine and most E61 machines are. It was designed for them.
@@LifestyleLab_ woww!! Appreciate for your reply😁
Very interesting thankyou. I have been wondering how best to use grind size and the ability of my leaver machine (a Europicola) to control pressure, preinfusion time and flow rate to get the best coffee. Please, please do a video on that. Thanks Tony
Great video. With pressure gauge between the flow control and the coffee puck providing some feedback, adding a flow control could really increase my coffee game. Especially when it comes to impacting coffee through the bloom stage of extraction. Thanks!
What about machines like the Bianca does this apply? I know they have some electronics in it
The Bianca has options to automate the pre-infusion with the software, but once into the main extraction there should be no difference in the behaviour. One thing to note is that Lelit has limited the Bianca paddle movement to one full turn, versus these aftermarket kits that can spin multiple rotations (for better or for worse)
Correct me if I am wrong, but you could measure the output, flow, with a bluetooth scale and software as the coffee hits the cup? This might be more accurate than using the gauge on the grouphead?
Absolutely could!
True flow rate into the cup is always the best and most accurate gauge in my opinion
@@LifestyleLab_Okay, good to know. Makes sense. Thanks for the great video!
Just decided to not use the flow control on my quick mill for once. Beans were well dialed in with an e37s, used a 1:2 ratio, no puck screen. The result was excellent and left me wondering, “why continue fussing with this flow control situation?”
Excellent explanation, why don't more people and companies just use lever machines 🤔?
Even my local coffee shops have variable flow rate machines but they don't really use it while those that have lever machines are forced to control it. The latter end up making way tastier coffees.
Likely just process flow. Have ANY brew method that requires the barista to be at the machine for the entire duration of the extraction is quite inefficient
@@LifestyleLab_ Ya I would guess it would defeat the whole purpose of paying 3x more for a machine with 2-3 group heads instead of just 1?
Great explanation. What about the needle valve of the Slayer? Is that a good flow control? Or the Rocket R91 has a better flow control? I am trying to decide which machine should I get. Thanks. And any suggestion is very much appreciated.
Slayer control will be similar or identical to this explanation. Primarily useful for long periods-infusions and tapering off.
The Rocket R91 is a different animal, closer to the Decent it actively monitors and adjusts flow with a flow monitor
@@LifestyleLab_ Many thanks. Sounds to me that the R91 is the one for me. Is there any other machine with similar (or even better) capability that I am missing? thanks again.
@@marceloaraujo7386 The Rocket R91 is a pretty awesome machine, absolute beast, but also lots of control... best of both worlds. SCG is price matching: seattle-coffee-gear.sjv.io/3P3JyA
@@LifestyleLab_ Great...love the design also. R91 it is! I will check the link. Many thanks and keep u the amazing work.
I really like it too, Rocket always gets it right on the appearance and build quality front.
I know the folks at SCG personally so definitely check out the link if you’re looking to pull the trigger! Their after sales support is stellar
At 6:45 into the video you mention that with an E61 Flow Control Device, you don't have control of the flow at all times. This sounds a bit misleading when comparing it to the Decent. Granted I don't have a Decent. With the E61 grouphead, as the puck provides resistance to the water flow,, the water can either make it's way through the puck, or be backed up where it will start filling the water passage area between the flow control device and the puck. In cases of total choking of the machine, the water will end up pushing the air out of the OPV valve, along with some water to relieve the built up pressure. I don't see how this functions any differently than a Decent or any other flow control machine like the Heylo or Mina, which also don't use the E61 grouphead.
I think you answered your own question in a way. Once a manual machine reaches the OPV pressure OR maximum from for the pump, changing the aperture size has zero impact on the flow dynamics.
On the Decent, if you tell it get give more flow, it will give more flow. Regardless of pressure (until reaching a totally unsafe level of course). More useful, it can continue with a very slow flow state indefinitely.
As also monitored, you CAN achieve very similar shots with an E61 flow control to the Decent, but it is very difficult as inputs are non linear, and not constant at each position. You’d really need something like the Smart Espresso Profiler pressure gauge to see live data and adapt. Even with that data, you wouldn’t be able to adapt 100s of times per second, or have the flow reaction instantly as on the Decent. Keep an eye out for the meticulous home machine. Another that looks to have the same capabilities as the Decent at a far lower price
My point was that both the E61 and Decent, handle the flow the same. If the puck is fully saturated, chocking, the pump will continue to run, but the water will work its way out through the OPV, if it can’t work it’s way through the puck. The Decent will not continue to allow a constant flow of water through the puck if the puck is providing too much resistance.
@@cmortel2005 for sure! Can't un-choke a fully choked extraction (unless a big channel happens to form from the pressure)
Thanks for making this- it's never black and white!
Btw what is the outro song name?
great videos, thx for sharing.
Does flow control work on HX? I have read that it doesn't but I think the apartamento is a HX machine. Do you just need to leave the flow/valve open until you're actually ready to brew?
It works perfectly fine, you just need to be conscious of your brew temp because slowing the flow can lead to higher brew temps due to the nature of how heat exchangers heat the brew water
My only issue is that its hard to find such a thing here in my country :/ also I'm using a Domobar VBM so I'm not even sure if all flow rate controllers are made for the same thread
Excellent video! Learned something myself.
Would also love to see mention of the OPV valve in the equation. Also as many other comments have pointed out, an exploration on the effect the flow control will have on a heat exchanger machine. I imagine a blooming shot would cause the water to get much hotter
Very well explained! I will mount mine shortly:-)
Thanks for the explanation! Been waiting for this video. I’m wondering if you’ve found any fluctuation in temperate with the E61 HX machine? Given that the boiler is pumping out water at steam pressure abs then cooling it as it gets to the group, I’m wondering how adding resistance there might change the temperature mid shot.
Two things:
1) Brew water isn’t at steam temperature and then cooled (unless the machine has been idle for a very long time). The brew water is in a heat exchanger tube that passes through the boiler, the water is not directly FROM the boiler.
2) Yes, limiting the flow like this does cause an increase in brew temperature, but only by a couple degrees. This can be managed through proper flushing / temp monitoring :)
@@LifestyleLab_ got it! I suppose you’re right, the water in the tubes leading to the group is enough to pull a shot without needing to pull more water from the boiler. I read some concerns from people about temp stability, but if you didn’t have issues then I’m definitely nabbing this for my appartamento!
@@jseitz792 in a heat exchanger, brew water is NEVER in the boiler. Take a peek at this diagram! www.chriscoffee.com/blogs/espresso-machine-faq/how-does-a-hx-heat-exchanger-machine-work
Is the kit a one-size-fits-all for any E61 grouphead? would it work for any rocket appartamentto?
Yes, will certainly work on the Rocket Appartamento, that’s what it’s installed on here! Designed to work on Profitec, ECM, Rocket (incl. R58), Lelit Mara/Mara X and other well known brands. Luckily the E61 platform is quite standard
@@LifestyleLab_ Awesome! and the installation is pretty easy too...just unscrew the top carefully and swap.
That’s literally all it is!
The only thing is making sure you have a large enough wrench. That E61 mushroom cap is surprisingly large
@@LifestyleLab_ ahh good to know....I will let you know when I get my kit for a live installation and test run
hmm you cant change the pressurize p1 p2 because it equalizes, but the flow will change
I've also noticed, both with my Coffee Sensor flow control mod kit on my Rocket Machine I had previously and the ECM Flow control on the ECM Synchronika both have a gritty / not so smooth feel to them occasionally, sometimes they're super smooth (usually when the machines cold and it's not even being used). So usage / Feel / Ergonomics wise, it COULD be nicer.
This would imply some scale buildup, likely time for a good disassemble and thorough cleaning
@@LifestyleLab_ I've seen posts with other people mentioning the same thing, but could be due to a tiny amount of scale, it does have to go through a tiny hole. I have cleaned it out previously and soaked it in some citric acid water, because flow rates were being inconsistent but wasn't able to completely open it up, soaking resolved the flow rate issue though. But I believe it was still gritty feeling after that.
Cool video. I really like the illustrations.
I do not like the use of "resistance" in these formulas. There is no law for fluids which uses resistance likes this. This looks more like Ohm's Law.
The flow of water through a coffee puck would probably more closely follow Darcy's Law for fluid through porous medium.
Darcy's law does however still specify flow rate propertional to pressure difference. You could justify calling it a "resistance" if you very specifically said it was a simplification of the real phenomena.
I’d like to see you show what the DE1 uses to control flow rate. The same could be said, It could be the same mechanism but further away from the group head. I’d like to see your diagrams of the tech it uses to back your claims.
The Decent uses two variable rate vibration pumps to control the temperature mix and flow rate, adjusting both hundreds of times per second. That’s the clicking you hear when it’s running :) no needle valves in sight.
@@LifestyleLab_ I like the idea of the decent. I’d only go slayer or decent as my next espresso machine but not anytime soon. A diagram of this would be cool.
John is a great guy and has a lot of long-form videos breaking it down!
Short version: th-cam.com/video/iVpuv2MfT00/w-d-xo.html
Long version: th-cam.com/video/HtWTT2BSZMI/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for making this! I always wondered why I could change the flow rate visibly without the portafilter but it didn’t seem to translate into a profiling a shot in the same fashion. I thought my flow control valve was defective😂
Bingo! It’s unintuitive when you see it working with no portafilter!
I think they should be called pressure control, as flow control is a bit of a misnomer. Just got a Profitec Pro 600 with “flow control”. Perfect for use with my home roasted coffee.
Thank you!
The apartamento is a HX how flow controll works in that system
This video was made using the Appartamento, so this explanation is all applicable to it!
i know i have appartamento nera and i undestant the video and how the flow works. But i havent buy a flow valve sinces i have read that dosen’t work woth hx machines.
It absolutely does work with HX machines :)
Heat exchangers are simply a different heater / boiler configuration, has no impact on flow
@@LifestyleLab_ the heat exchange (and the E61 group for that matter) are designed around typical flow rates. If you go too slow (blooming shot) or go too fast (turbo) then you'll not heat the water as the manufacturer expects. Going too slow is extra bad because the E61 group is overheated and the HX goes through the steam boiler
I'm curious how this will work on a HX, from a temperature perspective. I see the group thermometer, would be nice to make a video about it and see if it's actually a concern
It certainly has a slight impact on temp if you run VERY slow flow rates, but over a 30-40 second shot we’re taking about a couple degrees, nothing that can’t be compensated for by temp surfing or PID adjustment
Is it worth it as upgrade??
Watch the video and see!
It's definitely useful, just not as useful as I think many people believe
@ Thank you and I certainly will do watch it!!
Interesting video, got my subbed after watching some other video you did :) However it would be interesting to get a video more in depth as of how to use it correctly because it seems like a waste of money and added layer of complexity that doesn't improve anything other than maybe a placebo effect, when I try to use it on my R58 :/
I have it set with the pressure gauge but I notice how hard it is to lower the pressure once it reaches pump pressure "9 Bars" and that it is super unresponsive and far from being proportional! The only thing I can seem to be able to do is limit the ramp up at the beginning but then like I said, once it goes to 9 bars, if I try to restrict the pressure again, it seems like I almost have to full close it down to 100% to see a change on the gauge, wtf? O_o
Thanks for the help!
You guys do know there’s a digital flow profiler for the e61 now? It’s a bit pricey but definitely worth a look.
Might be working on something 🤫
@@LifestyleLab_ Ahhhhhhh 👍🏻
Tell me more, google gives me nothing.
Got a link? Imo the current manual flow profiler was quite expensive enough to buy seperatly 2 years ago so I wouldn't imagine a digital one. Is it some sort of Kickstarter as there isn't a single store that seems to be selling those.
@@ekjellgren smart espresso profiler
I really like my E61 with flow control. I don’t have any other machine to compare it to, but using different profiles definitely improves the taste compared to a flat profile. For me, the draw for an E61 machine is entry cost.
Absolutely! An E61 with flow control is an awesome setup at any price point to be honest
Great job…thnks
Great video, than you!
Good Video
Especially with a vibratory pump, why can't you achieve the same result by duty-cycling the pump? Give it a few short bursts at the beginning, not allowing full pressure to build (pre-infusion), then turn in on full-time, and then when the flow starts increasing because of puck extraction, interrupt the pump momentarily a few times to moderate the pressure above the puck.
Because with a 3 way solenoid, the pressure is fully released through the outlet as soon as the pump stops. Doing so creates a lot of disturbance to the puck almost guaranteeing channeling if you were to reintroduce pressure after.
All that being said, give it a try! Never know what might work for you and your coffee :)
@@LifestyleLab_ This is not the case with an e61 group head, which has a manually operated three-way valve, not a solenoid operated valve. You have separate control over the valve and the pump.
Love mine
It is a good video for me because I just buy this rocket , after see video I will make it 555
IMO they make little sense on heat exchangers, as flow rate varies temperature. On a machine with a dedicated brew boiler (be it single or dual) then it makes much more sense.
Based on my experience, the impact on temperature is only a few degrees and completely manageable if you have an on group temperature readout :)
So your technical breakdown of what the flow control knob does is great, but some of the statements you made are a little off. You said that unlike a decent its not a direct flow control, this is incorrect. It is a direct method of controlling flow, it just won't ever alter pump pressure to compensate for puck resistance.
It is not direct. Direct would imply you can apply a set flow rate, at a set knob position.
With these systems, flow is completely independent of knob position in a wide variety of scenarios, including at full pressure, when adjusting the knob position will have almost zero impact on flow until completely closed.
@@LifestyleLab_ I will try explaining another way so you understand.
Your argument is its not "direct" because once resistance builds at the puck the flow is limited by the puck and therefore its not direct. If that is your requirement for what constitutes "direct" flow control, a machine with infinite pump pressure would have to exist. As you said, the decent will push up as high as 12 bars to try to meet a flow target that you set. Well if I were to grind Turkish and tamp super hard, and the decent couldn't meet my flow target due to increased puck resistance, according to your definition it is now no longer "direct".
In reality, the decent can make flow targets but it is ultimately only varying the pump, which is probably better in many scenarios than simply closing a needle valve as you would do on an e61 with flow control, or a Slayer.
However, a needle valve is still the closest possible thing to direct flow control that exists, whether you believe it is better or worse is a separate debate. The decent varies pump vibration speed to try to achieve a flow target that you tell it to. John actually has a good video explaining this on the decent channel.
That is not my definition of direct. My definition of direct is being able to give the machine an input and get a known output.
You cannot place the flow control knob in a certain position and get a known flow rate. Therefore it is not a direct 1:1 input. With the knob in a fixed position, the flow rate into the puck with vary.
@@LifestyleLab_ your reply proves my point. Getting a known output of flow from any level of resistance would require a pump with infinite pressure. What you’re calling direct is actually telling the machine “vary the pressure from 0-12 bars to try to get as close to X flow through the puck as possible”
It is if anything less direct, and more automatic. You can also just tell a decent what pressure you want, and the flow will be what it will be based on grind size, dose, etc…
Also, you’re talking about the knob in a fixed position not giving a fixed flow rate to the puck, that’s wrong. It is giving a fixed flow rate and pressure *to* the puck, what isn’t fixed is how much flows *through* the puck, because that’s based on grind and dose.
So yeah, it’s good that you put a nice breakdown of how the device works but some of your other statements are erroneous.
False. At a fixed position, there is not always fixed flow to the puck. The flow is dependent on the pressure in the group head. If I start with a 5mL/s flow and no pressure in the group head, the flow will slow as pressure builds, even without touching the control knob. See the equation and notes at 4:50.
I think you may be mixing up flow to the puck with flow through the puck. Flow control is referring to controlling the flow rate TO the puck, not into the cup
I also never said at any level of resistance. I’m speaking within the operating range of each machine (before the relief valve is opened)
I got one recently and I removed it a few days after the installation. The needle is too thick, and the hole of the gicleur is so big, even bigger than the original one built in the machine, this makes the water control part became meaningless.
… false
Damn good video
Espresso extraction flow rate 1.5ml-2ml/s is only achievable on Decent, most of machines will accelerate after 15 seconds or so, results in gusher flow, before your video, I had this question for long time that whether E61 pressure reading on the group head is real puck pressure reading or it was created by the value that controls the flow, the resistance from this value causes pressure and that's the reading we see on the gauge.
*only possible to be maintained for the WHOLE duration of the shot.
Before puck degradation, this is a rough range most machines flow at, at 9 bar.
so lets say the coffee machine has a fixed 9 bar pressure always....when you use this flow control you will still have 9 bar pressure but just slow down the water flow ?
The maximum pressure achievable will still be 9 bar, yes. How slowly or quickly you reach that steady state can be modulated with this, as well as how gently you back away from 9 bar towards the end of the shot
@@LifestyleLab_ cheers for explaining that for me
You convinced me to save my money for a Decent.
Also keep an eye on the new Meticulous Home. Could be a Decent killer and almost half the price
Honestly at this point why not just use a lever machine if you want to control the flow so much?