A Dream of a Dream | SHOGUN [1x10] (REACTION)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 เม.ย. 2024
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I think when Toranaga says “ why tell a dead man the future” to Yabushige near the end, that was supposed to let him (and us) know that Omi had been spying for Toranaga the whole time. That’s what Yabushige said to Omi when Omi asked whether he was going to tell Toranaga about the ship in Ajiro back in episode 1.
I've been thinking this the whole day after this scene. It would make sense for sure
I was trying to remember who originally said that line, thanks for the reminder. Awesome bit of insight!
It also explains a lot of his actions, like trying to manipulate Nagakado into killing Nebara Jozen and attacking Toranaga's brother(i don't remember the name).
Or Muraji was just listening in.
@@Mr.Hyde_23 Also possible. However, I’m basing my theory on the book versions of Yabushige and Omi. In the book, Omi hated his uncle and wanted to find a way to cause his downfall, but the only reason you would know that is the omniscient narrator, which isn’t really possible in a TV series, so I think they slipped it in as a plot twist at the end. Just my $0.02 though - your idea is equally valid. Eye of the beholder, etc..
Really liked the moment whenn Toranaga said ''Why tell a dead man the future'' it was a reference to what Yabushige said about Toranaga to Omi in the early episodes, which could only mean Omi was working for Taoranaga from the start. Amazing short reference.
I'm gonna miss Shogun-Tuesdays 😭
The entire show (and the book by Clavelle) was an elaborate setup for Toranaga to be in a position to win the final battle. The broad strokes were revealed, but the details of the plan (including the month of politicking to completely flip the allegiances of the lords already shown and those we have not seen yet) and how the battle ensued are still hidden.
So who is ready for a “new/separate” mini-series, titled “Sekigahara: the Birth of a Unified Japan”?
Bro same…..
It won't have to miss is for long cuz they are currently working on setting up season 2
When Torunaga let that bird go and said 'go bear many daughters' it was kinda like him saying goodbye to Mariko who was very useful to him but also symbolic cos she never 'hunted' before until Torunaga invited her to one and she marvelled at the 'steel bird' in a way its like he's releasing her from her duty and is mourning in his own way.
I love the use of poems in this show to reveal a person's inner heart/secret heart. Mariko's words are always lauded as unbeatable and in her poem Ochiba asked her son how he would continue it. The Heir's words show his innocence - he sees the possibilities of fruits and flowers. But Ochiba ocntinues with the Wind. When Toranaga talks with Yabu about commandingthe wind you realise that she's speaking of him and that is when she reveals her secret alliance with him. I guess that the poem Mariko wrote and her continuation was what she wrote to Toranaga and is enough to state her intent of their alliance, given that he spoke the poem Mariko said to him and he wept in his own silent way. Yabu's poem was also simple, short and to the point. He wants to be useful even in death in so far as he can try to fight but if he loses (relevant to John's first words to Toranaga) then he is simply meat for hungry dogs.
In John's seppuku he speaks the words Mariko said in her last breath, showing that he not only learns language fast but also that he has taken her lesson to heart - Life and Death are the same and both can be used as weapons and not useless at all. John can make Toranaga do what he wants but either way, he gets to die and join Mariko in death. He contemplated that future - dying old and alone clutching unto the memories but decided 'fuck it'
In that whole scene, we know later that it was Toranaga who burnt his ship understanding that Mariko bargained for his life. And yet Toranga insisted on punishing the village to test John and his resolve. He claimed he had given up his war when the very reason he is alive is cos his witty response to Toranaga amused him so much he kept him around. And yet he is willing to give up his life for this small petty reason as the village same to how Toranaga found his depression around the gardeners death petty and small - John calls the whole religious war with the Portugeuse 'small' contrasting ep 2 where Toranaga's conflict with the regents seemed small in comparison to this new larger global threat John revealed to them about the Spanish-Portuguese treaty.
In the scene where John and Fuji sat together, you can see the lessons that Kuki the courtesan taught in the WIllow World - the empty space beside John framing him and Fuji as they sit is highlighting that the empty space is an absence that can be seen and felt, t he absence of Mariko in their lives.
I love the scene Omi takes his gun and sword - mirroring the conflict in early episode down to Fuji behind him but this time they're both so broken by their losses and trials there's no other for fighting anymore - which is a mirror to the entire conflict as a whole: to fight without fighting, to win before the war even starts. Toranaga won before they fought at Sekigahara.
Also the poetry of just Yabu almost dying on a cliff to being executed on a cliff. Mariko's words that Fuji used to say 'let your hands be the last to hold her'
I also loved the part when Toranaga said 'Its Shogun time' and Shogun all over Edo. Such a powerful scene
Toranaga doesn’t fight unless he’s stacked the odds to be sure of victory. He has Anjin dive repeatedly to tire him out then challenges him to a swimming race. Similarly Toranaga knows he’ll win the final battle before its even fought because Mariko’s sacrifice has removed the Heir’s army from the equation.
The fact that I for whatever reason had absolutely no idea this was a limited series, has crushed me. This was the Samurai/Shogun show I had been waiting for, and my appetite is NOT filled!
You can just read a history book. Tokugawa (Toranaga in the series) wins at Sekigahara and becomes Shogun. Japan then remains mostly at peace for over 200 years until the Americans show up in the 1850's and turn everything awry, like they tend to do.
It's OK haha they are working on setting up season 2 rn
Toranaga did have to fight Ishido at Sekigahara, but without the backing of the other council members Ishido was defeated. Toranaga then formed his Shogunate government and brought about peace and prosperity to Japan.
This was absolutely fantastic
I’m so happy that the Anjin was shown dropping Mariko’s rosary into the sea. That’s how we know that his grim future back in England was a dream. He would never fit in back in the west after what he’s been through.
You seem to have misunderstood Toranaga.
If there had been a full-on war, thousands, very likely tens of thousands, and quite possibly hundreds of thousands of people would have definitely died. Toranaga sacrificed a few dozen people so that full scale of death would not happen; his actions saved all those thousands upon thiousands who would have absolutely been killed in a war.
It is not the ideal solution, but it is the best solution he had in his position.
In chess you MUST intelligently sacrifice some pieces, even important pieces, or pieces you really like and want to hold on to, so you can win the entire "battle", and Toranaga was playing an extremely high level of chess, with real lives at stake.
This was a fantastic series
The writing was exquisite
That was a beautiful moment on the boat 🚤
"Let your hands be the last to hold her" was also Mariko's line for Fuji-sama when he had to give his baby up for death way back in episode 1.
@@khaii13 indeed makes it even more poignant
Couldn't agree more!
5:12 there's a giant fish in Japanese mythology who causes earthquakes
You know? Poetry recitation has been recognized as a part of the culture of samurai and aristocrats for more than 1,300 years. Therefor there is still the Emperor poetry session in Japan every year, and even Emperor or someone of their family sometimes reads a poetry in public every year!
Toranaga is a master manipulator who used everyone around him to achieve his goal. He deceived everyone into thinking he's righteous when in fact he is no different from everyone else.
"A Dream of a Dream" - Blackthorn going back, growing old and dying in England is a Dream which he had to let go. He never left the Japans.
He never said he was righteous. You thought of that yourself and got disappointed.
@@Jakeylicious7891 You missed the point of the post. It is referring to the characters in the show, not myself. He doesn't have to declare at the top of his lungs that he's righteous. He's actions did and that is the deception, his third heart. Perhaps learn how to read between the lines.
@amrosoronar1853 his third heart is clearly intended for Japan, which is the entire purpose of this show. It's not like he forced Mariko to sacrifice herself for his selfish ambition. What was his dream? To have a unified Japan where there will be no more wars. And he achieved that in the end, yes? Is he ruthless? Yes? But did he guarantee a good outcome for his whole country? Yes.
The edo period is the golden age of Japan that by the end of the 18th century, Edo (Tokyo now) was the largest city in the world that arts, crafts, and trading flourished. And that was due to the sacrifices of those who believed in HIS dream you think was selfish.
Maybe you're the one who missed out reading between the lines.
@@Jakeylicious7891 You're so smart
Have to stop thinking in terms of righteous / good etc. Toranaga is making the best moves to safe the country. You do realize with the regents waiting for the heir to come of age...civil war will undoubtedly be the result. As well as the Catholics with their claws in the country already ensures the "realm" will be lost.
A shogun of shogun lineage to unite the country is vital to be able to repel the Portuguese and any other invaders/ colonizers. He literally made the best moves for the country. The other regents, lords were not able to see that big picture.
Great series. I'm going to miss it, but if it ever gets released physically I'm totally buying it.
Yes
I'll admit this much about Toranaga's plans, that even though they resulted in the deaths of some of his closest and beloved friends, the death toll was far less than what might have resulted from the war he successfully evaded.
After Toranaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu) became the shogun, he created Japan without war for over 200 years.
If someone else had become the general, the constant war would have killed millions of people over 200 years.
As far as I remember Blackthorne - (William Adams) The actual man never left Asia and there is documentation that his son joseph held some land as a vassal but there is no further documentation on his family in Japan. He also died age 55
In 1635, Hidetada's successor Tokugawa Iemitsu enforced the Sakoku Edict for Japan to be closed against foreign trading; both Joseph and Susanna disappear from historical records at that time. All Japanese of mixed race were expelled to Jakarta, and it is presumed that Adams's children were among them.
Man, I wonder if there is anyone alive that is related to him. Or how his lineage went on at least. So many things like this, all lost to history to be never known.
@@justwatch7091 He had English children too
Adams was recorded to have married Mary Hyn in the parish church of St Dunstan's, Stepney[9] on 20 August 1589. They had two children together: a son John[66] and a daughter Deliverance.[2] After Adams's voyage to Japan, Mary Hyn was forced to leave Limehouse and became destitute for some time, although she received a portion of Adams's wages from the East India Company in 1615.[67]
Deliverance married Ratcliff mariner Raph Goodchild at St Dunstan's, Stepney on 30 September 1618. They had two daughters, Abigail in October 1619 who died in the same month, and Jane in April 1621. Deliverance would later marry for a second time, to John Wright at St Alfege Church, Greenwich on 13 October 1624. Mary died in 1620 at Gillingham in Kent.[68]
Adams died at Hirado, north of Nagasaki, on 16 May 1620, at the age of 55. In his will, he left his townhouse in Edo, his fief in Hemi, and 500 English pounds to be divided evenly between his family in England and his family in Japan. The English family's portion of the inheritance did not reach London until 1622, at which point Mary Hyn was already dead.[72]
I was in this episode as one of the Red Samurai.
If real that cool af dude
For those wondering if the flash forward was real: It wasn't. The episode actually spends most of its runtime throwing clues at us to let us know that it was just a dream/potential future Blackthorne envisioned but ultimately let go when he decided to commit sepukku.
There was a war, Toranaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu )his real name, had to fight at sekigahara. It was the greatest battle in Japanese history and he did win
Torunaga was the final villain all along that's wild
Toranaga always wins because keeps ahead of his enemies. Occasionally several.
Fudo Myo is a deity derived from Buddhism who protects people from demons.
'Why tell a dead man the future?' Yabushige had said that to Omi back in the first episode. Omi was probably the spy telling Toranaga everything. Might even been pushing Nagakado under Toranaga's orders. In a realm of ruthless power seeking killers, Toranaga is supreme. The hawk that hides in the sun and strikes unseen like he said of that bird in the first episode.
Congrats Guys !!! 100k Subs !!!
I really like how yall get how complicated Toranaga is - someone to look up to, but also I despise his ruthless hypocrisy. Really well done show about a horrific time painted in a beautiful yet violent culture.
❤As in so many great stories, there are no good or bad sides, only many shades of gray. Toranaga was playing 3D chess all along. Whether he did it out good for the realm or ego driven pride is up to you decide. It ushered in an age of peace but at great cost to a few close loyalists.
Bridgeco, There seems to be a lot of viewers out there who have enjoyed this show so much that they have started to view the first Shogun Series from the 1980's to keep getting their Shogun fix. The one to thank is the author the late James Clavel for the book and for making the story and charactors so memorable. Let's hope they make a series of his book "Tai-Pan" next. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Tai-pan, a new series, would definitely be an improvement on the DeLaurentis film (which bombed).
"In war, probably both sides have little regard for the truth. In the end, the victorious liars hang the vanquished ones" -- Eric Frank Russell, British SF writer.
Anjin learning that mariko negotiated his life being spared is plenty reason for his to be emotional
I think it’s a fascinating piece of character study that Yabushige, a warrior who relished in death he caused, lost his mind after the selfless sacrifice of a woman he hadn’t intended to be killed.
Please watch the Version with Richard Chamberlain from 1980 and compare it with what you saw here. Tell us what is your favorite version.
This show was amazing. Im glad i got to react along with you guys!
Ishido and Ochiba's fears were well founded from the very beginning.. but even though Ochiba knew his secret heart, such was Toranaga's cunning that he found a way to manipulate her into turning on the only person who could protect her. You don't need to be a history buff to know what happens next for the heir and his mother.. RIP.
Incredible show through and through.
I just wish we could have got to see Ishido meet his end. Screw that guy.
Toranaga was a military commander who survived the Sengoku period. He's definitely an ambitious person.
After this, both Ochiba and Ochiba's son will commit suicide at Osaka Castle.
Let's clarify. Ochiba and Ochiba's son do commit suicide- 15 years later. After Toranaga has been Shogun.
Well, there was a bit of a fight. At Sekigahara, where Toranaga/Tokugawa defeated Ichido, "40,000 heads were taken".
If you're asking why Toronaga didn't let John be Yabushige's second, I think it was partially because that's Toronaga's one line he won't, under any circumstances, cross. He knows from personal experience how traumatic it is to second someone when you're not particularly good at using a katana.
I enjoyed watching this with you guys. I need to check out your other content.
This series didn’t follow GoT. It focused on the game, not spectacles. We all were routing for Toranaga only to realize there were no heroes and no villains. Just the game.
Season 2 and 3 confirmed! Although the show ends where the Book did - They can easily convert actual historical events of the people the character's are based off of. The end of the Book is still the start of William Adam's (Blackthorne's) journey. The same with Toranaga and co. Then you have the mass Christian persecution and kicking the Portuguese, and Spanish, out of Japan. Can easily span two seasons whilst consolidating Toranaga's power as the New Shogun.
He played everyone, from the start, and easily brought Blackthorne into his machinations. Shame we had to see Mariko die, however William did get married and have children in Japan. So can easily do that in the show too for John.
I know there won’t be another season but Yabu’s suggestion that he and Anjin sail to England together made me wish for an Anjin/Yabu spin off in England where the situation is reversed and Anjin has to teach Yabu English customs and language.
omi asked that girl if loyalty could ever be betrayal, and now it makes sense, he was always loyal to toranaga, not to yabu
Best review on the internet well done you two
「オーガは、彼が足元に花を押しつぶした瞬間に、彼の貴重な葉のない枝を失いました。結局のところ、姉妹」
“The Ogre lost his precious Leafless Branch the moment he crushed the Flower underfoot; sisters in the end, after all” For the first time in the entire series, Ochiba sama looks directly to Ishido while talking to him; in all other episodes, she glances at him but looks away. That was the most subtle, passive-aggressive death stare I have seen on screen to date.🫣
Yabushige and Toranaga smirking at each other in the end was awesome, too. Yabushige got the best end he could have gotten, considering all he has done: realizing that whether he knew it or not, he has served his Lord Toranaga excellently. And maybe, just maybe, lightening the burden in his conscience a bit, afterall: a future Toranaga victory will never come to pass if Mariko did not die INSIDE of Osaka. Goodbye to our favourite sociopath.
Blackthorne kills a possible future version of himself-an old man, filled with regret, clutching on to Mariko’s crucifix-by mirroring Mariko (literally doing a ritual su!c!d3 like a woman [a blade through the heart] instead of seppuku [slicing his belly open] like a samurai would) in order to protect Ajiro: the first completely selfless thing he has done in the show; and also by letting that exact same crucifix go into the water along with the ashes of Fuji-sama’s family. And to think he did all those things mostly as an act of kindness to Fuji-sama… she deserves the best. 🥹🥹
"I forcced fate to gaze upon me so that I can pluck its eyes out"
-Ochiba no Kata
Also, the fact that Anjin used the word 詰まらない【つまらない】 (tsumaranai) when he said “my war is small” can also be translated to “my wars are petty/trivial/silly/worthless” in reference to his ambitions and designs for England and his war against the Catholics. That was him letting go of his personal ambitions for something greater.
The setup to be in a position to win the final battle is mostly complete, and the broad strokes were revealed, but the details of the plan and how the battle ensued are still hidden.
So who is ready for a “new/separate” mini-series, titled “Sekigahara”?
Ohhh, and what was Toranaga holding in his left hand just before it cut to the title card?
Personally, I think it's a tightened grab / punch over his katana, signifying his brutal Shogunate. Let's not forget what he did in Ajiro is the first of many brutal things he will do. Yes, he says unified Japan and peace but he says a lot of things.
@@hydramarinee I was really hoping someone would bit the red herring and comment it was Mariko-sama's crucifix (an impossibility)😆😆😆
But yeah, it could be the sageo rope of Toranaga's Tachi.
AAnd it may be brutal, it may be Amoral, but he did unify Japan and Usher in a dynasty that Kept 250 years of peace. Just like how dropping nukes in Japan ended the war on the Japanese-Asian front during WW2
El poema comienza así: "Eran jueves de Shogun y mi cuerpo lo sabía...". 😢😢😢
Its an interesting question, Toranaga won without a war, but there is still a human cost as he used all his allies as chess pieces. Counting on Yabushige to betray, having Mariko die, Anjin is little more than a distraction... but his plans will bring together and protect Japan. Ends justify the means? 🤔
That’s always a moral dilemma. In Game of Thrones Tywin justfies the Red Wedding by saying “Is it more moral to kill thousands in battle or a few dozen in a banquet hall?”
Great TV shows are great TV shows because they end.
16:02 Blackthorne makes a request; or anybody else makes a request regarding Blackthore.
Toranaga: NO!
unexpected but not an unwelcome finale! thought it was going to be bombastic and bloody but from the start toranaga’s goal was to prevent a large war, and he did exactly that. people throughout the show talked of controlling fate-wielding it like a sword, or making it face you to claw its eyes out. toranaga studies it and predicts the end point, moving pieces but letting them do what they were gonna do anyway even if it led to their death. cold but considering that the real shogunate ended up being a time of peace and stability in the country, some folks would see it as worth all that
I prefer Yabu's death poem from the book and 80s mini series
What are clouds
But an excuse for the sky
What is Life
But an escape from Death
Can you watch freak show 2017?
Oh there diffidently was a war a month later thousands died! In the original mini series Fuji didn’t become a nun she changed her mind, stayed with John and they lived together happily!
I'm pretty sure that in the novel there's no final battle either. Whole point was to adapt it to a one season series and that's it.
after letting go of her dead husband and son, i dont really think Fuji ends up being a nun, kinda no need anymore she has let go of her grief. That boat scene ending kinda implied maybe she stays around helping blackthorn.
In the book, Fuji stays with Blackthorne.
So disappointing
What a disappointing end to great series..
Perfect ending.
No action but I still loved it tbh
その心はナガカドなんだよ
虎永は〝欲しいものは与えぬ〟と言っている
我々の心は按針なんだよ
@@rannierunsfast Yeah, the series was basically a political drama, why would there be some crazy action in the final. Not every show's final has to be action packed to be good. It annoys me so many people are disappointed in the final because of no action.
so many people these days think the ending has to be some spectacle. these people don't think of the story as a whole. they just want the spectacle.
the whole last episode was the ending. everything was tied off and explained. everything concerning how toranaga becomes the shogun came to an end. and that's what the book and the show ultimately are about; counting the events that lead to toranaga becoming shogun and the people involved in it.