I had another thought, if men and women today bear children and they are born pure in your definition, then why did Jesus have to come through a Virgin birth? That's a different way than us. Was he avoiding something by being born of the spirit. Could it be so he could be born with no sin. ?
It's a good thought, but I think it's more about the miracle aspect as prophesied by Isaiah. He shared his mothers DNA, but that doesn't mean He was born half sinful. Jesus was also baptized by John, though He did not sin. I think it would have been argued if Jesus had a human father that He was a created being. The virgin birth is a sign of His deity, similar to the resurrection.
Hi Rick. Not debating this topic right now. I will agree to disagree. It' likely a topic I will cover more in depth in the future. This is just a discussion, not an in depth teaching. I'm not sure if you watched the full video though? I never claimed I didn't sin. Also, to clarify, which I thought I covered in the video (which again makes me think you didn't even watch it?) . We inherit the curse of sin being born into a cursed physical world, not the sin itself. That is explained in Genesis, and reaffirmed in scripture, that children are not guilty of the sins of their fathers. I don't hold to the Augustinian doctrine of original sin. Infant baptism was invented in an attempt to solve the dilemma of babies going to hell, which is the logical conclusion of the doctrine. This would also include the pre-born who die in the womb. Original sin is a Catholic doctrine that was built upon by the Protestant reformers, and the basis for Calvinism and TULIP. I am neither Catholic or Protestant. Since I hold to historic Christian, pre-Augustinian doctrine, this means I also deny PSA, which teaches that God the Father damned Jesus. If you want to follow along I eventually plan to do more videos on surrounding topics.
@setapart1631 I watched the whole thing, I know Catholicism extremely well. So when will you answer my questions , disagreements and concerns? Will you answer other questions on this post. Sorry couldn't resist 🌽
The wages of sin is death spiritual and physical . Can a baby die ? If children have no imputed sin from adam , how can this be ? Rom 5:12 because of adam sin is passed onto All mankind. From the day a child is born, it has been medically proven that the body begins to die on a cellular level. If there was no sin, there would be no death until knowledge of sin At the age of accountability. If you think you are technically no longer a sinner by your definition. why are we told to confess our sins and ask for forgiveness of sins after we're saved . Paul said oh wretched man that I am , not was. The purpose of the knowledge of sin is to teach you the fear of the lord. What I think you may have overlooked is as Christians We all still have a bonafide capacity to sin and we all do. yes, we have his imputed righteousness, which has nothing to do with our works. John was extremely clear when he said, if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us. Rom 8:3 god said he sent his son in the likeness of sinful flesh. That's means every man woman and child, we're all in the flesh. If we don't sin, why did john say when we do sin we have an advocate, You contacting yourself on this point. 1jn 5:16 if any man see his brother, sin a sin not unto death, 5:17 all unrighteousness is sin. Show me one man that is completely righteous Other than jesus christ . He came to save all mankind from sin, not just adults. You said that a child that never sinned and then got saved could not say they were sinner saved by grace, so what you're doing is robbing them of the beauty of salvation. And you're also robbing jesus of glory for being their savior. To be saved, you must repent, And know painfully that you're a sinner. Your doctrine is off my friend. He came to be the savior of all mankind. All have fallen short of the glory of god. There is no one righteous, no, not one. The whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. Everything grows from a seed, the seed of sin has to be in a child To eventually grow into full maturity of sin. A tree is know by its fruit. A little levin, leven's the whole lump Once it's mature. We're all born children of wrath, which must be saved and translated. Toward the end of your video, you said, how can you approach God with such a low self Esteem and feeling like you're a worm. buddy, that's the only way you can come. If you come any other way, it's called self righteousness, And a different door. You better approach god in Fear, humbled, broken and contrite, knowing that you're a wretched sinner, with no hope or future other than damnation without him. Sorry, buddy, disagree with you on this one. Respectfully. I'll leave you with one final thought. The greater of a sinner He shows me that I am, in the light of how holy he is. the greater of a savior he becomes, and the more glory he receives, That's what you're missing. I am forever humbled to say, I am a sinner, saved by gods amazing grace.
I can't address all your points here. I agree with some of what you say. I think you misunderstood the full conclusion of my assertions. I have fallen short and need a Savior, and continue to confess my sins. One thing to note, the wages of sin is not physical death for all, because some of God's people are raptured at the end of the current age, never experiencing physical death. Enoch was caught up to the heavens, and babies and the pre-born who die I also believe go to be with the Lord. For something to be universally true, there must be no exceptions. I understand your position, because I held to it at one point, being what most denominations teach. In explaining where the differences occur, Ezekiel 18:20 is an important concept: “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." I hope this helps explain my doctrinal framework a little better. I certainly agree with some of your points, just not all of them.
I'll save the in depth discussion for future videos, in stead of typing to type a book, as there are others waiting for further videos on this topic too. So anything that is not clear I'll try to clarify. It's certainly a good topic that should push everyone to study further to see what the whole council of God teaches.
@rickshawley7683 Hey brother, I hope you don't mind if I chime in a bit regarding your mention of 1 John 1:8. If you keep reading well into chapter 3, John gives more context to the statement he made in 1:8 and paints a beautiful picture of how once we are in Christ we have been made new (I'm paraphrasing)and are no longer considered sinners- one who practices sin (lawlessness). This will be quite long, but I will include the verses that further demonstrate this one particular point that Jonathan is making. Jonathan can correct me if I'm wrong. 1 John 3:1-9 "See [a]how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or [b]knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." I hope that gives some extra clarification☺️
Thank you Jonathan. This discussion was very helpful. It is clear in Gen 3 that the ground/world is cursed as a result of Adam's sin, but it was Romans 7:14-20 that held me up as well. You did a great job breaking this down. If one reads Romans chapters 5,6, 7, AND 8, you'll see Paul's flow of thought and the context in which he is writing. I agree that his writing style can be very challenging to follow, and I do not claim to have a grasp on all of it either, but I was able to see the points you made in this discussion after re-reading that particular passage of scripture in it's context.
Hey Kristen. Paul's letters have been a minefield for me since I was young (especially because when I was young I had an incredibly technical approach to life) so I have learned to take them slow and in the broader context when I'm not fully understanding. Also, God has been teaching me more than ever that's okay to say I don't understand. It's a much better approach than trying to force an interpretation. Also, I just saw you on Alana's channel. Haven't watched one of her videos for probably a year, and there you were! That was a timely video, and covered some of the same topic. I was thinking about linking you to it before I saw your comment!
@setapart1631 Yes, a timely video indeed! I have been enjoying Alana's homemaking content for many years and her more recent videos on Calvinism have been very insightful. She introduced her audience to her friend Jason Breda (Good Berean channel), who has come out of Calvinism as well, and he's another very humble guy who's really trying to help others break through the bondage that exists within that system. Regarding Paul, I've been learning to approach his writings with a fine tooth comb and a ton of patience. Another realization I've had is to pay particular attention to his audience. Sometimes he will address multiple groups within the same body of writing and it can get convoluted.
There is no "sin nature" and no "original sin." We are all born with imperfect bodies and minds, and none of us (except Christ) has the will, desire, and holiness to live a sinless life. So everyone, except Christ, sins, but it isn't due to something passed down from Adam, and people aren't "totally depraved." Each person has the ability to do good things, so the idea that we can't do ANY good without God's grace is also false. All of this "original sin" and "total depravity" stuff came from early Roman Catholic and early Protestant philosophers whose worldview was based on Hellenistic philosophy rather than Hebrew theology. If you drop the orthodox view of this and read the Bible without that predisposition, some difficult passages suddenly become obvious.
@@SmartestDumbGuy Of course I care. How does a god figure into that? We have laws and consequences if the harm is bad enough. If it's someone in my personal life I deal with it. I don't need to wait for Superman to arrive. When God says it's OK to have slaves; how is that not harming people? When he says to murder the enemies of Israel, INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN, how is that justified? You people are messed up.
@@timo5601 your just fine sure. I guess it's just convenient for the rest of us that you don't drive pleasure from murdering people. Surely you can't say such a proclivity, and giving into it is bad in any way.
This isn't the channel where I post hobby stuff. My main channel is still a mix. I've been uploading some coin roll hunts, but not specifically detecting right now. My back and neck are not good and I'm doing other things. :)
I had another thought, if men and women today bear children and they are born pure in your definition, then why did Jesus have to come through a Virgin birth? That's a different way than us. Was he avoiding something by being born of the spirit. Could it be so he could be born with no sin. ?
It's a good thought, but I think it's more about the miracle aspect as prophesied by Isaiah. He shared his mothers DNA, but that doesn't mean He was born half sinful. Jesus was also baptized by John, though He did not sin. I think it would have been argued if Jesus had a human father that He was a created being. The virgin birth is a sign of His deity, similar to the resurrection.
Side note. Joyce meyer, creflo dollar, kenneth copeland and andrew womack teach this. They say that they're not sinners anymore.
Hi Rick. Not debating this topic right now. I will agree to disagree. It' likely a topic I will cover more in depth in the future. This is just a discussion, not an in depth teaching. I'm not sure if you watched the full video though? I never claimed I didn't sin. Also, to clarify, which I thought I covered in the video (which again makes me think you didn't even watch it?) . We inherit the curse of sin being born into a cursed physical world, not the sin itself. That is explained in Genesis, and reaffirmed in scripture, that children are not guilty of the sins of their fathers. I don't hold to the Augustinian doctrine of original sin. Infant baptism was invented in an attempt to solve the dilemma of babies going to hell, which is the logical conclusion of the doctrine. This would also include the pre-born who die in the womb. Original sin is a Catholic doctrine that was built upon by the Protestant reformers, and the basis for Calvinism and TULIP. I am neither Catholic or Protestant. Since I hold to historic Christian, pre-Augustinian doctrine, this means I also deny PSA, which teaches that God the Father damned Jesus. If you want to follow along I eventually plan to do more videos on surrounding topics.
@setapart1631 I watched the whole thing, I know Catholicism extremely well. So when will you answer my questions , disagreements and concerns? Will you answer other questions on this post. Sorry couldn't resist 🌽
I answered some of them on your other comment. I plan to cover this topic more, as there's much nuance to it. I agree with some of what you said.
The wages of sin is death spiritual and physical . Can a baby die ? If children have no imputed sin from adam , how can this be ? Rom 5:12 because of adam sin is passed onto All mankind. From the day a child is born, it has been medically proven that the body begins to die on a cellular level. If there was no sin, there would be no death until knowledge of sin At the age of accountability. If you think you are technically no longer a sinner by your definition. why are we told to confess our sins and ask for forgiveness of sins after we're saved . Paul said oh wretched man that I am , not was. The purpose of the knowledge of sin is to teach you the fear of the lord. What I think you may have overlooked is as Christians We all still have a bonafide capacity to sin and we all do. yes, we have his imputed righteousness, which has nothing to do with our works. John was extremely clear when he said, if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us. Rom 8:3 god said he sent his son in the likeness of sinful flesh. That's means every man woman and child, we're all in the flesh. If we don't sin, why did john say when we do sin we have an advocate, You contacting yourself on this point. 1jn 5:16 if any man see his brother, sin a sin not unto death, 5:17 all unrighteousness is sin. Show me one man that is completely righteous Other than jesus christ . He came to save all mankind from sin, not just adults. You said that a child that never sinned and then got saved could not say they were sinner saved by grace, so what you're doing is robbing them of the beauty of salvation. And you're also robbing jesus of glory for being their savior. To be saved, you must repent, And know painfully that you're a sinner. Your doctrine is off my friend. He came to be the savior of all mankind. All have fallen short of the glory of god. There is no one righteous, no, not one. The whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. Everything grows from a seed, the seed of sin has to be in a child To eventually grow into full maturity of sin. A tree is know by its fruit. A little levin, leven's the whole lump Once it's mature. We're all born children of wrath, which must be saved and translated. Toward the end of your video, you said, how can you approach God with such a low self Esteem and feeling like you're a worm. buddy, that's the only way you can come. If you come any other way, it's called self righteousness, And a different door. You better approach god in Fear, humbled, broken and contrite, knowing that you're a wretched sinner, with no hope or future other than damnation without him. Sorry, buddy, disagree with you on this one. Respectfully. I'll leave you with one final thought.
The greater of a sinner He shows me that I am, in the light of how holy he is. the greater of a savior he becomes, and the more glory he receives, That's what you're missing. I am forever humbled to say, I am a sinner, saved by gods amazing grace.
I can't address all your points here. I agree with some of what you say. I think you misunderstood the full conclusion of my assertions. I have fallen short and need a Savior, and continue to confess my sins. One thing to note, the wages of sin is not physical death for all, because some of God's people are raptured at the end of the current age, never experiencing physical death. Enoch was caught up to the heavens, and babies and the pre-born who die I also believe go to be with the Lord. For something to be universally true, there must be no exceptions. I understand your position, because I held to it at one point, being what most denominations teach.
In explaining where the differences occur, Ezekiel 18:20 is an important concept:
“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
I hope this helps explain my doctrinal framework a little better. I certainly agree with some of your points, just not all of them.
I'll save the in depth discussion for future videos, in stead of typing to type a book, as there are others waiting for further videos on this topic too. So anything that is not clear I'll try to clarify. It's certainly a good topic that should push everyone to study further to see what the whole council of God teaches.
@rickshawley7683 Hey brother, I hope you don't mind if I chime in a bit regarding your mention of 1 John 1:8. If you keep reading well into chapter 3, John gives more context to the statement he made in 1:8 and paints a beautiful picture of how once we are in Christ we have been made new (I'm paraphrasing)and are no longer considered sinners- one who practices sin (lawlessness). This will be quite long, but I will include the verses that further demonstrate this one particular point that Jonathan is making. Jonathan can correct me if I'm wrong.
1 John 3:1-9
"See [a]how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or [b]knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."
I hope that gives some extra clarification☺️
Thank you Jonathan. This discussion was very helpful. It is clear in Gen 3 that the ground/world is cursed as a result of Adam's sin, but it was Romans 7:14-20 that held me up as well. You did a great job breaking this down. If one reads Romans chapters 5,6, 7, AND 8, you'll see Paul's flow of thought and the context in which he is writing. I agree that his writing style can be very challenging to follow, and I do not claim to have a grasp on all of it either, but I was able to see the points you made in this discussion after re-reading that particular passage of scripture in it's context.
Hey Kristen. Paul's letters have been a minefield for me since I was young (especially because when I was young I had an incredibly technical approach to life) so I have learned to take them slow and in the broader context when I'm not fully understanding. Also, God has been teaching me more than ever that's okay to say I don't understand. It's a much better approach than trying to force an interpretation. Also, I just saw you on Alana's channel. Haven't watched one of her videos for probably a year, and there you were! That was a timely video, and covered some of the same topic. I was thinking about linking you to it before I saw your comment!
@setapart1631 Yes, a timely video indeed! I have been enjoying Alana's homemaking content for many years and her more recent videos on Calvinism have been very insightful. She introduced her audience to her friend Jason Breda (Good Berean channel), who has come out of Calvinism as well, and he's another very humble guy who's really trying to help others break through the bondage that exists within that system. Regarding Paul, I've been learning to approach his writings with a fine tooth comb and a ton of patience. Another realization I've had is to pay particular attention to his audience. Sometimes he will address multiple groups within the same body of writing and it can get convoluted.
Romans 5:12-21 is regarding original sin. Romans 7 is written in the present tense, not the past tense.
There is no "sin nature" and no "original sin." We are all born with imperfect bodies and minds, and none of us (except Christ) has the will, desire, and holiness to live a sinless life. So everyone, except Christ, sins, but it isn't due to something passed down from Adam, and people aren't "totally depraved." Each person has the ability to do good things, so the idea that we can't do ANY good without God's grace is also false.
All of this "original sin" and "total depravity" stuff came from early Roman Catholic and early Protestant philosophers whose worldview was based on Hellenistic philosophy rather than Hebrew theology.
If you drop the orthodox view of this and read the Bible without that predisposition, some difficult passages suddenly become obvious.
Really? So how do you explain Galatians 3-5
@@Luke-eo6kp Can you be more specific? Nothing in those chapters requires one to believe in the post-New Testament doctrine of Original Sin.
No such thing as sin or God.
Or good or bad.....or anything at all really. If you reject God, you lose it all.
So when someone wrongs you... you dont care?
@@sevencrickets9258 I rejected "God" years ago and I'm doing just fine. I just realized I believed for bad reasons and couldn't justify it anymore.
@@SmartestDumbGuy Of course I care. How does a god figure into that? We have laws and consequences if the harm is bad enough. If it's someone in my personal life I deal with it. I don't need to wait for Superman to arrive.
When God says it's OK to have slaves; how is that not harming people? When he says to murder the enemies of Israel, INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN, how is that justified?
You people are messed up.
@@timo5601 your just fine sure. I guess it's just convenient for the rest of us that you don't drive pleasure from murdering people. Surely you can't say such a proclivity, and giving into it is bad in any way.
I guess no more meteldecting videos.....😐😐😐🫤🫤🫤🫤
This isn't the channel where I post hobby stuff. My main channel is still a mix. I've been uploading some coin roll hunts, but not specifically detecting right now. My back and neck are not good and I'm doing other things. :)