I was raised Calvinist. I did not know that there was anything else. Grew up in Holland, Michigan. All my family were Calvinist but did know what Calvinism is. I went to Calvinist K-12 CRC school. I graduated from Calvin college. I knew the TULIP, but not everything that it involved. I am 76 years old and knew at age 25 that there was a problem with Calvinism. I have attended church regularly. Since 45, I have not attended Calvinist churches. Between age 25 to 45, I moved in and out of Calvinist churches. As recently as a year ago, I thought I was a 3-4 point Calvinist. Within the last 6 months I have completely rejected Calvinism. It is through your youtube videos and Kevin Thompson’s, I realize that Calvinism had so warped my thinking that I could not read scripture without reading through the Calvinist filter. I have read the scripture daily the last 40 years and only through your ministry and Kevin Thompson’s that I can now see how Calvinism is so wrong.
I am happy to hear this from someone who is sincere about his experience with Calvinism. By your age, you are like a father to me. In Africa we take the older people advices and experiences seriously. God bless you for the encouraging words
What a great weight lifted from you to have realized God is not the bad guy! I can't imagine the freedom you experienced. Thank you for telling your story. So refreshing to hear! Lord bless you. ☝️😎
@@mickknight6963God is NOT a bad guy under calvinism! Where did you got it? Under calvinism He becomes the most loving, holiest, gracious, just etc God. All His attributes exposes in full.
@@IvarsKublins Really? Let’s see, under calvinism: God decrees everything that comes to pass, I am held accountable for what he decreed for me to do…According to the Bibles standard of justice, the god calvinism describes is unjust.
I wanted to comment on the common Calvinist rebuttal quoted (or misquoted) from Romans 9 "Why does God still find fault, for who has resisted his will?" and "Who are you, O Man, to speak back to God?" First off, it should be stated: "Why does God still find fault, for it is HIS will that this should happen?" That's what we're pushing back on. The whole issue is about God being upset over something he decreed to happen. Secondly, concerning the statement "Who are you, O Man, to talk back to God?" We aren't talking back to God. We're talking back to Calvinism. There's a very clear difference unless you believe Calvinism to be your god, and then we do have a serious problem.
@@RenardGarzaro Calvinists claim the same thing, that they just believe what the Bible says. Also, I didn't say we were talking back to Calvin, but to Calvinism, the systematic that was developed from his writings and teachings. That isn't scripture, but rather an interpretation of scripture.
I was reading the Canons of Dort and in the articles it says that God doesn’t give faith to everyone, only the elect. Then in another article it will say that God holds man responsible for their lack of faith and God is angry at them for their unbelief, but God is not responsible even though he didn’t grant them the ability to have the faith necessary. It is maddening.
Mr. Flowers! I truly admire and respect your ministry concerning the fallacies of calvinism. You are very knowledgeable and humble in presenting your assessment of calvinism. What I can not understand is how you can authoritatively reveal the errors in the calvinistic doctrine on the one hand, and on the other hand embrace calvinist preachers as brothers. Puzzling!
Amen, brother. The point of contention is that calvinism's God is responsible for all sin. He is responsible for me not agreeing with His causing me to not agree. He is responsible for all logic to be illogical. It must be totally exhausting to try to live out Calvinism in your daily life, and to be married with kids must be horrible. How does anybody deal with their children? NOTHING is their fault! How would you discipline them? Why apologize when you wrong someone, it was decreed by God! Wow.
@@mickknight6963 I've sometimes wondered how a Calvinist husband apologizes to his wife. “Honey, I’m sorry God decreed me to do that” 🤔 I think if I was a Calvinist, I’d invest in a really comfortable Sofa.
@@IvarsKublins hey brother, no you're right. I am not arguing for calvinism. Just thinking how much a calvinist who tries to live true to his theistic determinism must be having a hard time of it. And I'm not suggesting that many do, as it would be unbearable to live believing God wills all things. So no, I'm not. ✌️
Without divine determinism there is no need for any of the TULIP. It begins with philosophy and not Scripture and when you come to Scripture with that belief, you put that lens over the Scripture and by necessity you need TULIP. Like any philosophy we are to test it and when we do we find that it fails to be in harmony with the Scripture. Thank you for your faithful ministry.
@@RenardGarzaro is that how you test all philosophy? You test philosophy by hammering it down to its logical conclusions. If those conclusions fail to mirror what is in the Scripture then it is to be thrown out by the believer. A famous quote by Whitehead, "The purpose of thinking is to let ideas die instead of us dying." Calvinism is built on the philosophy of divine determinism. It was not "first" built off of the Scripture, but upon a philosophy. That is to go to Scripture with a presupposition and that presupposition colors how the Scripture is interpreted. Without divine determinism, Calvinism and TULIP are absolutely unnecessary to interpret Scripture. As a Christian the authority and standard is the Scripture. I am to submit myself to this revelation; however, there is no Scripture that I can find that requires me to first believe a philosophy before I can believe what Scripture actually says. Philosophy requires logic. And, I would add, that if one fails to drill down any philosophy to its logical conclusions and then merely accepts it and then lives by it, then it may not serve them well but lead them into falsehood. I believe that Scripture shows us that God has determined "some" things, but in my study of Scripture I have not seen that God has determined "all" things.
@@SugoiEnglish1 It should begin with Scripture, but Calvinism doesn't. Calvinism begins with "the sovereignty of God" which means divine determinism. I don't need to read John Owen or John Gill in order to return here nor do I need what they have to say in order to understand Scripture. I reject "determinism" as defined by either the atheist or the Calvinist. I reject "compatibilism" as defined by either the atheist or the Calvinist. It's that simple. Determinism and compatibilism are both philosophical ideas. I do not need these philosophical ideas in order to understand Scripture.
@@sharonlouise9759 I'd argue both libertarian free willers and calvinist start with scripture but interpret non-essential aspects differently. I look forward to hearing all the answers in heaven and don't want to feel bad about how I treated Christians on the other side if the argument.
The comments under this are so cringe. "You are determined to believe the lie, but you freely choose to believe the lie." I legitimately don't understand how people don't see this as plainly A=-A. It blows my mind. Determined means you can not do otherwise, free means you can do otherwise. This is why the antithetical philosophical views to free will philosophy are called determinism. Predestination is a wonderful example that shows the distinction: It is predestined (meaning that the results are fixed ahead of time and can not be altered) that those who believe will go to heaven for eternity and that those who do not will go to hell for eternity. This is determined ahead of time meaning that you CANNOT choose to make this function otherwise. You don't get to say, "I don't believe in Jesus but I CHOOSE to go to heaven anyway." That is invalid. Not an option. You are NOT free to choose this to function otherwise because it is determined. Who is saved is also predetermined ("who" meaning what kinds of people): those who humbly repent and believe. You can't NOT repent and NOT believe and still be saved. Not an option. You are not FREE to choose this to function otherwise. Those are biblical. However, who CAN repent and believe is NOT determined. You are free to repent and believe. This is truly not that complicated. A = A and Calvinists are trapped in bizarro world on this stuff. It's so damaging to the church. I really wish they could see that.
Of course the question is what do the scriptures teach? Not what the human mind can imagine as logical or not. God's revelation at times goes beyond human logic and ability to comprehend it. Noice try, but that just isn't a biblical way to understand what the scriptures teach.
DW: You make excellent points about how much DOUBLE-SPEAK there is in Calvinism because Determinism is such a radical belief system. The Calvinist is trying to bridge two completely contradicting world-views. For example - Calvinists are very uncomfortable with facing the fact that they are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything. An infallible decree does not grant existence to any ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees. So if it is decreed that Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME-T - that decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE to Calvinist_A. Thus Calvinist_A is not granted a CHOICE simply because NO ALTERNATIVE exists for Calvinist_A to choose. This is one of the consequences of Determinism which Calvinists are uncomfortable facing. As a result - all Calvinists follow a certain pattern called *AS-IF* thinking. 1) The Calvinist asserts his doctrine is TRUE 2) The Calvinist treats his doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE in order to retain a sense of human normalcy. Consequently - Calvinist language is full of DOUBLE_SPEAK
@@caleb.lindsay Straw man fallacy. I didn't say that. I meant that a Christian goes to the scriptures as the final authority when there are debates / disagreements with doctrine. Reread what I posted please.
The irony of the fact that Calvinists get mad at us for rejecting Calvinism, but if their system is true then God made us reject it and we have no choice in the matter… Seriously, what do they expect us to do? Reject God’s Sovereign decree that we would reject Calvinism? As if we had the free will to do so? Seriously, pick a lane.
If it's true and you reject it, it's because you don't believe in truth but believe in the lie according to God who can't lie. Therefore you are responsible for your belief in the lie.
The names written in the Book of Life are in the perfect tense, passive voice, indicative. That really is CHECKMATE. It is irrefutable. Strong's: G1125 English: were written Code: V-RPI-3S Long: Verb - Perfect Passive Indicative - 3rd Person Singular Speech: Verb 👉Tense: Perfect👈 Voice: Passive Mood: Indicative Person: 3rd Person Number: Singular Revelation 17:8 NKJV [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Leighton’s patience amazes me. Calvinism is so stupid and contradictory and he keeps showing how dumb it is and retains his composure. I truly don’t know how he does it. I’ve known a couple Calvinists that aren’t obnoxious about it but it’s hard for me even when I talk to them just because they’re convinced that something is true that’s so asinine. To me it’s simple. If determinism is true then you have no access to truth because you only believe what you believe because it was determined. Every time I hear a Calvinist talk about “the doctrines of grace” I feel less intelligent for having heard it.
Calvinism is just the modern day Pharisee. Most of them are dead in their trespasses and sins. They appear alive, but are dead. Jesus says of them _"are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them"_ -Luke 11:44
@@SugoiEnglish1you absolutely rob God of His glory. You malign His character and make Him out to be a liar. The entire false gospel if calvin robs the entire truth and deceives people.
@@SugoiEnglish1 The dead can't rob God of His glory. That's the problem with Calvinists, their disciples of John Calvin rather than Jesus. They claim Sola Scriptura but they don't practice it, putting the words of men above the word of God. Like their predecessors 2000 yrs ago, they still stumble over the Stumbling Stone.
@dionsanchez2775 At least consider if there are any parallels. I wouldn't say this about most calvanists today, but look at the roots. You have men who are calling for and taking the lives of other men, who do not align with their doctrinal beliefs. Also claiming what they are doing is in line with the Bible, clearly not understanding the character of God. The Pharisees did the exact same things, claiming Jesus was a blasphemer and calling for His death. No Calvinist today would call the actions of Zwingley, Luther and Calvin Godly behavior, if those men lived today with the actions they did then. Give them a few centuries and now they're called heroes of the faith. Men can say many things that sound Godly, judge the fruit.
Just applied for trinity! Looking forward to potentially taking a class from you Leighton. Your work has helped me come out of a fatalistic mindset and understanding God’s salvific love for the world produces a greater love in me for Him. Your book the Potter’s Promise has been helpful as well-highly recommend to anyone looking for a great resource! I appreciate your work brother, keep it up. God bless.
@@RenardGarzaro If you are asking which specific fruit I see lacking, it would be love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. I know many Calvinists personally, watched many debates between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, read lots of Calvinist writings, and have surveyed hundreds of comment sections where Calvinists interact with non-Calvinists, which inform my opinion on the issue. If my perception of this issue is accurate, then I would say it is an indictment of a theological system that seems to not produce the fruits of the spirit in its followers, which is what the gospel is supposed to do. To me, it is really a natural outflow of Calvinism when taken at face value. Under that system, it's hard not to believe you are special, seeing it teaches you are specifically chosen by God for eternal life, or that there should be any genuine care for the lost, given they were specifically chosen for eternal damnation. I find its adherents talk like they have some extra special revelation, enlightenment, or gnosis if you will, from God which brought them to understand the "truth" of Calvinism, and tend to treat non-Calvinists as "lesser" Christians, as if there could be such a thing, and some even treat non-Calvinists as being non-Christian. As R.C. Sproul once said about Arminians, they are "barely Christian." How can that type of theology not create an elitist type of attitude towards non-Calvinist Christians, and hinder development of the fruits of the spirit in Calvinists lives?
1:04:44: Foreknowledge is on "no level" determinative, and sovereignty does not require determinism. If Sproul Jr can make claims without evidence, then I can just as easily make the opposite point without evidence.
Really do admire the majority of Calvinist Preachers, when they are talking Biblically and not talking about Calvinism. I'm former RCC and really enjoy this channel. God Bless
I just have one question for all calvinists? If God has predetermined who He will spend eternity with, then why did Jesus have to be born, die and rise?
He did determine who will, it's just not individually. We need to clean up our language on this. It adds so much confusion when we speak too casually, which I know you aren't doing purposefully. God literally did NOT choose certain people: the proud, the wicked, the unrepentant, 1 Corinthians 6, etc. We must agree that God does choose certain people (I believe "types" or "characteristics of people" is the way "certain people" should be understood which makes it corporate, not individual) to be with Him for eternity because it's both obvious and Biblical. But the Bible does not teach what I would call "unilateral individual predetermined salvation". I think that phrase is an accurate and appropriate phrase representing Calvinistic soteriology (open to criticism, but I think it's fair). That is not taught Biblically, but if it was, we'd either have to simply accept it as Biblically true or believe it makes the God of the NT evil and therefore the NT a false witness against the God of the OT (praise God we don't have that dilemma!)
DW: Your question is a good one! In Calvinism - there is only *ONE NECESSARY CONDITION* for anything that comes to pass including a person's eternal destiny. And that *ONE NECESSARY CONDITION* is an infallible decree. Remember - in Calvinism - people are created for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for Calvin's god's good pleasure - before any human is ever created. That decree makes each person's eternal destiny *INFALLIBLE* and therefore unchangeable. Jesus dying on a cross is therefore TANGENTIAL to the fact. So in Calvinism - Jesus dying on a cross is not a NECESSARY CONDITION for anyone's salvation. In Calvinism - the decree is what defines divine sovereignty And divine sovereignty (Not Jesus's sacrifice) determines each person's eternal destiny.
@@caleb.lindsay You error in committing the either or fallacy on that. There is another view: God can do what he wants as God and you can whine all you want, still if He is God you have no standard by which you can measure God's actions by. Eph 1*4 Chosen by God in Christ. So, you prefer that God chose an entity from all eternity? Peter contradicts that notion as well. Besides, no one buys a baseball team that has 0 players, 0 admins, 0 concession workers. Your view of a corporate entity does not correspond to what is reality.
Determinism is just plain ridiculous. If it were true, why not just do whatever you want? None of it would matter, would it? Since God would determine my outcome anyway?
Remember, in Calvinism God desires a sinful world. If God determined a perfect sinless world it would be without exception; but it’s the opposite. In Calvanism, God might as well be Satan if he overthrew God
When you really chew on this, this is potentially the best comment there is on here. The last half I'm not certain I agree with because the world isn't TOTALLY sinful and Christ did come, so there is some redemption to it which Satan would never choose I don't think, but the first half is basically as succinct as it can be said.
@kgar5String No, we are saying God is not like Satan. We keep being told that sin came into the world because God desired it and that He determined the fall of Lucifer and fall of Adam, many times with a "for His glory and good pleasure", like the cherry on top. But to make God seem to want sin and to be glorified by a choice to introduce sin, and to take pleasure in sin: this is very serious, and why Calvinists are blind to that fact, we just don't get.
Jesus was praying for the elect in John 17. You’re misunderstanding the doctrine of God’s Decree. God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but at the same time, doesn’t violate the will of the creature.
@@scienceandbibleresearch *Jesus was praying for the elect in John 17* Yeah, I'm talking about believers. Jesus prays for unity but decrees our doctrinal positions to be ununified. *God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but at the same time, doesn’t violate the will of the creature* I'm not misunderstanding anything. First off, I reject this statement as having any biblical or philosophical support. For arguments sake however, I will accept it. If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then that includes "the will of the creature". Therefore you've simply presented a distinction without a difference. What you're essentially saying is "God doesn't violate the will He determined for us to have" or even more specifically "God doesn't violate His own ordinations".
@@TKK0812It's amazing to me that Calvinists have twisted themselves into such intellectual knots to defend their position that they can't understand what you just pointed out about God's decree (by their definition) completely nullifying any creaturely will in the first place.
@@TKK0812 : "Jesus prays for unity but decrees our doctrinal positions to be ununified." - You were right the first time (i.e., "Jesus prays we would be one..."). Jesus prays for several things in John 17. Doctrinal unity isn't one of them. The fact that there is doctrinal disunity among believers is due to our own misunderstandings. He's allowed this to occur for his good purpose at this point in time. " What you're essentially saying is "God doesn't violate the will He determined for us to have" or even more specifically "God doesn't violate His own ordinations." - That's an erroneous oversimplification of what I actually said. Both God and man have their own wills. God's will shall be done and he doesn't violate the will of the creature in the process of accomplishing his will.
Regarding your poll at the 12 minute mark You should account for only the calvinist replies. 81.6% of calvinists said true, and only 18.4% of calvinists said not true. Most were true to their systematic. The # of the non calvinist responses really skewed the poll.
Such good teaching on this, brother. Those trying to live daily under theistic determinism must be continually worn out. Thank God for your ministry in this area. It really goes hand in hand with evangelism. "He that winneth souls is wise." Prov. 11:30. ☝️
@@SugoiEnglish1 Calvinism definitely is not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose again 1 Cor 15. That God chose some people to save and not others is NOT good news. Even Spurgeon can be wrong.
(PS, I suggest you keep this one handy, so to speak, to repost if you find yourself unable for whatever reason to present something on this channel for a while. It's a great mid-sized treatment of the theme here, well worth recasting occasionally, I feel.)
The idea that no one or very few who left Calvinism was never really Calvinist or doesn’t understand it is as arrogant and unsubstantiated as Flat Eartherism. It should be laughed out of the building
Leighton, the truth is, though most Calvinists won't openly admit it, they do not believe non-Calvinists are actually saved. Oh, they grant that one can be saved without understanding TULIP, but they also believe that once presented with TULIP from Scripture, as they explain it, then rejection of it proves you are not a true Christian. Once you understand their real position on this, you will better understand them.
@@SugoiEnglish1 I should have clarified. I don't think every Calvinist thinks all non-Calvinists are not saved. I do believe, however, it is a common belief amongst many Calvinists. I say that as one finally reconsidering Calvinism after being immersed in it for 40+ years.
Definitely disagree. If you belive the essentials of the faith, you are saved regardless of your views on Calvinism. I don't know any Calvinist who would say differently. John Newton said Calvinist should be humbled that God saw fit to reveal doctrines of grace to them while having patience toward Christians whom God didn't see fit to reveal them. I agree with him and think we should all show more grace to each other.
@@RenardGarzaroEphesians 2:8-9 doesn't mean what you think it does. The Koine Greek word for faith has a feminine gender. The Greek word used for "this" meaning the thing being referred to as the gift, is neuter. Since the genders don't match, then the gift cannot be faith. The gift therefore is the entirety of salvation by grace through faith, not just faith.
Jesus came to give us living water. Calvinism takes and adds several tablespoons of manure to that water. So if not all calvinists are the same that just means that they put only three table spoons of manure per cup of living water instead of 6 table spoons.
You just affirmed Calvinism while trying to refute it. LOL. The living water is the Spirit who gives life, who enables you to call on God, who caused you to believe, who took the work of Christ and applied it...Thank you!
@@SugoiEnglish1 As soon as a determinist argues for anything he is destroying his deterministic ideology in the process. Calvinists prefer Calvin's neoplatonic philosophy over the word of God. Under Calvinism the calvinist god has decreed for you to believe what you believe and me to believe what I believe. He has also determined all of the sins that each of us commit otherwise he could not be sovereign. Calvinism destroys the credibility of the Christian faith. Calvinism originated with Augustine the founder of the Catholic Church who was into Manichean Gnosticism for ten years before he came to the church. But if you listened to this video and didn't hear any truth then you will have to rely on all your Calvinistic presuppositions.
@Soteriology101w/Dr. LeightonFlowers, I am very excited about your new channel. I am hoping that you'll be discussing our present tense walk of salvation in sanctification; how to live the transformed life, what it means to pick up our cross, etc and not doctrine. Also maybe have a segment on the Messianic Secret. Anyway, I'm really hoping that it isn't going to be on doctrine because TH-cam is saturated with that. I'm hoping for segments which edify the body of Christ as they walk with Jesus.
No Calvinist has any right to judge and condemn anyone for anything. If God determines everything, it's not any person's fault if they are in error. This is the best rebuttal I have seen of this utterly illogical / untenable position. God does indeed know the end from the beginning., but He is not confined to time. We are free to follow our will in the temporal timeline, but God is aware of the entirety of time from His POV in eternity, i.e. the results of our choices, and the consequences thereof. He is also able to interject His will at any point - He is God, and can do as He pleases. However, in general, he does not, as He established Free will. The fruit of tree Adam and Eve ate of was of the 'Knowledge of Good AND evil.' Man knows and is capable of both, but more inclined to evil due to our fallen nature.
@@RenardGarzaro that sounds like a "gotcha" question. The answer is both yes and no. Yes, their sins were atoned for. But because they refused to accept that atonement and chose to make their own (ultimately unsuccessful) atonement, they find themselves in hell, which is not the fault of God, and not because atonement wasn't made for them.
@@RenardGarzaro The bible doesn't say all sin was atoned for. That is the error of LA adherents. "Basphemy of the Holy Spirit wil never be forgiven." - Jesus
@@RenardGarzaro What is God feeling sad about here? 👇 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing" (Lk13:34) "I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts" (Isa65:2)
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi The blasphemy of the HolySpirit is the sin of UNBELIEF. Which is what ultimately sends every man who resists the Good News brought by the HolySpirit, to hell. That's why God warns: "You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts7:51) "Today, when you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion" (Heb3:15)
Jesus paid for all sins of all mankind throughout all of history. No one goes to the lake of fire for the reason of sin. People go to the lake of fire because their names are not found written in the book of life, they do not have life, eternal life. See great white throne judgment in Rev 20
First, there must be a problem needing a solution. For Augustine there were 2 problems, 2 issues needing a solution: 1. How can a benevolent God cause or allow evil? What did Augustine consider evil? Catastrophic natural disasters, plagues, and disease, he considered evil. 2. Christians bragging about their salvation. Augustine sought a solution for both 1 and 2. For #1: Augustine decided that these "evils," were determined by God for the glorification of God. For #2: No Christian, no human, has any responsibility in his salvation.....because humans are totally depraved. Therefore, total inability. Mistake 1: Augustine labeled certain human suffering as evil that were not evil. Mistake 2: To eliminate Christians bragging about their having any part in their salvation, declare humans totally unable to do anything positive at all. From this, the added belief that humans must be regenerated before they can believe the gospel. A person may correctly identify a problem, and create an incorrect solution. A person can wrongly identify something,i.e., All human suffering is not evil. Cancer is not evil. Rape is evil. Both cause suffering.
I used to be a Protestant but now, a Catholic. I love your videos on Calvinism. I actually believe that there is a link between narcissism and Calvinism unfortunately,
26:10, those terms aren't mutually exclusive you can use and cause things, as a matter of fact most things you cause (at least conciously) you're using it.
A question about Romans 9. Option 1: The Calvinist says the interlocutor is a non-Calvinist questioning predestination. Option 2: Dr Flowers says the interlocutor is a hardened Jew questioning God's judgement. Option 3: Could the interlocutor be a confused Jew who thinks God owes the whole nation / race salvation?
Im finally admitting this. Calvin's soteriology and the Gospel of Grace has convinced me that i am created to be sent to hell. I believe in the good God of Abraham, who sent Jesus to save the world. However, Paul's letter to the church in Rome says, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Who am I to question God making me for hell? In the Gospel of Matthew, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." My mind wants him, my heart does not. I cannot obey him. God made Judas to fulfill the prophecies. Whether I want to agree with Calvinism or not, it's so in my mind and heart. Everyone in Calvinism looks at themselves being the chosen, not everyone is the hero. Some will say, "no he just passes over them." I have prayed so many times that he does not pass over me, yet I am still the evil wretch that I am. I am a tree planted to be logs for the fires of hell. I cannot be so prideful to believe God elected me. I am even the first born, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Once again in Romans, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" I sit on the sidelines in Chruch and wheep knowing I will never enter his kingdom. A poem I wrote a while ago: At me the ravens laugh, Rain pitter patter on my shoulder, Slick leaves snicker to make fall, Oak empty and whithered I look aghast, For he has passed this snag over, Other trees strong and tall, Unwanted whoredom under oak boughs, Husbander has left an axe, Cold from the snow are housed, Wood burned is better than flax, Why sow an Oak for fruit?
The story of the prodigal son can be your story. I know you say that you are like Esau, and considering your perspective, you would consider yourself the older son in this story. But the older son was never forced by his father to hate his brother, and if it were believed to be true, how much clearer would it be that the Calvinists god is not loving? But besides that point, neither son is forced to make a response by their father. In fact, the prodigal walks home before the father runs to him. I'm not trying to offend you or get too personal, but God is calling you, and all who are lost to Him, he is waiting at the door for you to come back. No dear soul, don't listen to the voice of the older brother just because he is older (false teachers and the devil himself). The voice of the Holy Spirit is true. Romans 11:21-23
@@bryanpratt5850 sorry brother but this is just scripture taken out of context. its not a good way to do hermeneutics. Its similar to Charismatics where they rip out verses out of context about wealth and apply it to themselves. Context is the letter in Romans 9 is about Jews and their covenant and the "Who are you o Man" passage is a Jewish Objection to the Grafting in of Gentiles to Jewish promises. Its a broadening of scope not limiting Edit: My reply not saving. Romans 9 is for the Jews cause context say it. Romans7:1 “those who know the law refers to Jews” until Romans 11:12. Only at Romans 11:13 where focus shifts to gentiles “Or do you not know, brothers-for I am speaking to those who know the law-that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?” Romans 7:1 ESV “Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the d*ed? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.” Romans 11:13-16 ESV
@@merrickc1876 chapter 11 talks about grafting. Romans 9 is about election. Read verse 11 and on to 20. Where are you getting the whole,”who are you oh man, is a Jewish objection to the grafting in of the gentiles”?
@@bryanpratt5850 But of course it has meaning. It means we don't interpret Romans 9:20 the same way a calvinist does. You may not agree, but to say my comment is "meaningless" is, well, meaningless.
Well, dear brother, atonement had to be made first, or else, Adam and all his descendants that would be saved, WOULD PERPETUATE SIN IN THE LORDS PRESENCE FOREVER. "Lest they take of the tree of life and live (with God) forever. Sin would have been in His presence and He could not cast them out. That is why they could not get back to the tree of life , and eat of it. Atonement had to be made, to make the TUNICS (TYPE OF CHRIST SACRIFICE) that He covered them with effectual, along with everyone else that would be justified by faith. Excellent question Love to you all brethren, in the best love, HIS ETERNAL UNCONDITIONAL!
Both God and man have their own will. Luke records Jesus being delivered "over to their will" (Luk 23:25). And he also records that it was the will of the Father for Jesus to be crucified (Luk 22:42). Exactly how this works without God being implicated in their sin is a spiritual mystery.
For the last question Caprio: You assume moral imperatives imply human ability in the case of savingly believing on Jesus. Prove it please! We hold different pre-suppositions on that! You are making the claim, so you need to prove it.
Any presupposition suggests extra biblical. If so then it is not worth fighting or arguing over. Focus of following Christ and ask yourself why your focus is Calvinism rather than being conformed to the image of Christ. Don’t let the enemy distract you.
@@SugoiEnglish1 Ok, well I pray that this task concerning Calvinism etc would not bring about division with the people around you. There is enough dividing the truth and this issue should not be salvific. I say this because I have people at my church who can’t change the topic because that’s all their focus is on.
@@SugoiEnglish1 That would be true if it wasn’t for the reality of the situation. Calvinist are the ones who focus so much on Calvin’s teachings rather than Jesus which is why people like Flowers must bring correction and destroy the imbalance. He is doing Gods work.
@@UltraAar if you've never watched a full video, why comment? This channel is specifically dedicated to his critiques of Calvinism so that this is separate from his former job as director of evangelism and apologetics for Texas Baptists (one of the SBC associations there) and his current job as a professor at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary. If you come to Soteriology101 this is what you get, because this is what it is. Dr. Flowers does plenty of other things elsewhere, but this is what it is.
@@RenardGarzaro " it is impossible for him to actually get what God is saying" ... um... der... your doctrines states he cannot understand because of Gods eternal decreed (all things that come to pass)... including your post and my reply 🤖🤖🤖🤖 Based on calvinism teaching, all calvinists are caused by God to believe calvinism to be true even though it contradicts the words of scripture
Without watching I can say that calvinists DON'T think that God predetermines unbelief - it is just natural behavior of every human being. It's nothing to do with God, but with us. It is our choice to not believe.
@donatist59 no, it is your interpretation about what Calvinists think, but it is not honest interpretation. It is non-sequitur fallacy. We need to look what is really in Bible. And in Bible there is directly highlighted man responsibility. We all are responsible about our own sins. No one else. Fallen nature is coming because of sin of Adam and we ALL are under it. I don't know maybe you are confused by hyper-calvinism, which should be rejected. Bible reveals both things - human responsibility and God's sovereignhty. He chooses His bride. As we have free will to choose our wife, so He have also choice with whom He will spend eternity with. We can't break in Heaven against His will. He is in control. Nothing happens which would surprise Him. If He don't want something to happen, it won't happen (Amalech didn't touch Sarah at Genesis 20:6). If something bad happens - so God allowed it for some reason (Judas betrayal and Jesus death on the cross for example). At the same time it doesn't mean He produced it - He just let it happen. Because Bible tells us that He is not "a source of evil". We will always rebel against God and it is easy for us to do evil. We won't do nothing good as Romans 1-3 is telling us. It's our choice to always rebel against God. So we would want to choose Him He must intervene. So He removes our "heart of stone" and gives us "heart of flesh" and we are "born again". This is not something we produce. So this is paradox - 100% our choice and 100% God's choice. BTW - free will is mentioned only once in the Bible and was meant towards God. He have truly free will. We don't - we have limited knowledge and impacted minds.
Hey Whiners about the Calvinistic view, come on in to Rouge Calvinist tonight. Share your views. YOUR VIEWS, not just a critique of the Calvinist view. Come on in son...
From The Bible we get to choose whom we will serve as Joshua calls Israel to. God is not the author of Evil nor can we say that God is the one who tempts us. Our own desires tempt us and we get to choose to obey God or obey our desires.
@@YeshuaSaves3 I'd agree. We can choose whatever we want. We can only want evil until God regenerates us. Romans 9 seems very clear that God made beforehand vessels for honor to show his mercy and vessels of wrath which he prepared for destruction to show his power.
@@jeremywolffbrandt7488 God does not arbitrarily create vessels for wrath. There is our God given ability to reject or accept The Truth. Read john 1 where the son is sent to his own, his own did not receive Him…but to all who DID RECEIVE Him gave He the power/right to become children/sons of God. Receiving precedes regeneration.
@@YeshuaSaves3 DW: In Calvinism - humans are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything - simply because an infallible decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE from which it decrees - and thus NO ALTERNATIVE is granted existence for any human to choose. For example: If it is decreed Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME_T - that decree is infallible and does not grant existence to any ALTERNATIVE. Calvinist_A does not have a CHOICE in the matter - simply because NO ALTERNATIVE exists for Calvinist_A to choose.
We are predestined TO justification/sonship. Unbelievers are responsible for their sin. God determines who goes to heaven. God determines who goes to heaven = infallibility Man determines he goes to heaven = fallibility If God left it to man to determine to be saved, everyone would fall away, see the parable of the sower. Ephesians 1:5 NKJV [5] having predestined us to👉 adoption as sons 👈by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Predestined us to adoption AS sons ✅️ Predestined us to adoption AS glorification after we are justified ❌️
DW: In Calvinism - *EVERYTHING* concerning creation (including what creatures will be held responsible for) is established by a decree at the foundation of the world. 1) The decree determines what a person will be held responsible for. 2) And the decree is *NOT CONDITIONED* upon the creature or the condition thereof - it is SOLELY within himself according to his good pleasure. For example - Calvin's god - according to his good pleasure - can hold a new-born baby responsible for a tree falling in Africa 20 thousand years ago - with the consequence of eternal torment in a lake of fire for Calvin's gods good pleasure. And the Calvinist in such case - is required to assert Calvin's god is un-impeachable and no human judgement is allowed. Calvin's god *MADE* that new-born baby specifically for that judgment. John Calvin explains: -quote by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god *THOUGH THE REASON DOES NOT APPEAR* they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. - (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121)
@@johnknight3529 Calvinists will sometimes erroneously make such claims against NON-Calvinists. But they are committing a logical fallacy. They are conflating what that which is nature with that which is supernatural. For example - in many instances where Jesus will heal someone - he will command that person to do something - like "Take up your bed and walk" Then when that person obeys the command - they are healed. They did not heal themselves simply by choosing to be obedient to Jesus' command. The person obeys which is the natural God heals - which is the supernatural part Calvinists often conflate the two together - kind of turning humans into puppets.
I was raised Calvinist. I did not know that there was anything else. Grew up in Holland, Michigan. All my family were Calvinist but did know what Calvinism is. I went to Calvinist K-12 CRC school. I graduated from Calvin college. I knew the TULIP, but not everything that it involved. I am 76 years old and knew at age 25 that there was a problem with Calvinism. I have attended church regularly. Since 45, I have not attended Calvinist churches. Between age 25 to 45, I moved in and out of Calvinist churches. As recently as a year ago, I thought I was a 3-4 point Calvinist. Within the last 6 months I have completely rejected Calvinism. It is through your youtube videos and Kevin Thompson’s, I realize that Calvinism had so warped my thinking that I could not read scripture without reading through the Calvinist filter. I have read the scripture daily the last 40 years and only through your ministry and Kevin Thompson’s that I can now see how Calvinism is so wrong.
I am happy to hear this from someone who is sincere about his experience with Calvinism. By your age, you are like a father to me. In Africa we take the older people advices and experiences seriously. God bless you for the encouraging words
What a great weight lifted from you to have realized God is not the bad guy! I can't imagine the freedom you experienced. Thank you for telling your story. So refreshing to hear! Lord bless you. ☝️😎
@@mickknight6963God is NOT a bad guy under calvinism! Where did you got it? Under calvinism He becomes the most loving, holiest, gracious, just etc God. All His attributes exposes in full.
@@IvarsKublins
Really?
Let’s see, under calvinism: God decrees everything that comes to pass, I am held accountable for what he decreed for me to do…According to the Bibles standard of justice, the god calvinism describes is unjust.
@@RenardGarzaro
Calvinism is unjust according to the Bibles standards not mans.
Perfectly explained Dr flowers, I don't know how what your saying doesn't register with Calvinists,I love your love for the Calvinists.
I wanted to comment on the common Calvinist rebuttal quoted (or misquoted) from Romans 9 "Why does God still find fault, for who has resisted his will?" and "Who are you, O Man, to speak back to God?"
First off, it should be stated: "Why does God still find fault, for it is HIS will that this should happen?" That's what we're pushing back on. The whole issue is about God being upset over something he decreed to happen.
Secondly, concerning the statement "Who are you, O Man, to talk back to God?" We aren't talking back to God. We're talking back to Calvinism. There's a very clear difference unless you believe Calvinism to be your god, and then we do have a serious problem.
@@RenardGarzaro Calvinists claim the same thing, that they just believe what the Bible says.
Also, I didn't say we were talking back to Calvin, but to Calvinism, the systematic that was developed from his writings and teachings. That isn't scripture, but rather an interpretation of scripture.
I was reading the Canons of Dort and in the articles it says that God doesn’t give faith to everyone, only the elect. Then in another article it will say that God holds man responsible for their lack of faith and God is angry at them for their unbelief, but God is not responsible even though he didn’t grant them the ability to have the faith necessary. It is maddening.
Mr. Flowers! I truly admire and respect your ministry concerning the fallacies of calvinism. You are very knowledgeable and humble in presenting your assessment of calvinism. What I can not understand is how you can authoritatively reveal the errors in the calvinistic doctrine on the one hand, and on the other hand embrace calvinist preachers as brothers. Puzzling!
14:10 In Calvinism there 'no' mistakes. Neither are their un-decreed 'random' abortions.
Amen, brother. The point of contention is that calvinism's God is responsible for all sin. He is responsible for me not agreeing with His causing me to not agree. He is responsible for all logic to be illogical.
It must be totally exhausting to try to live out Calvinism in your daily life, and to be married with kids must be horrible. How does anybody deal with their children? NOTHING is their fault! How would you discipline them?
Why apologize when you wrong someone, it was decreed by God! Wow.
@@mickknight6963 I've sometimes wondered how a Calvinist husband apologizes to his wife. “Honey, I’m sorry God decreed me to do that” 🤔 I think if I was a Calvinist, I’d invest in a really comfortable Sofa.
@@mickknight6963this is not calvinism which you are arguing for. No reasonable calvinist thinks like that.
@@IvarsKublins hey brother, no you're right. I am not arguing for calvinism. Just thinking how much a calvinist who tries to live true to his theistic determinism must be having a hard time of it. And I'm not suggesting that many do, as it would be unbearable to live believing God wills all things. So no, I'm not. ✌️
Without divine determinism there is no need for any of the TULIP. It begins with philosophy and not Scripture and when you come to Scripture with that belief, you put that lens over the Scripture and by necessity you need TULIP. Like any philosophy we are to test it and when we do we find that it fails to be in harmony with the Scripture. Thank you for your faithful ministry.
It begins with scripture. Not sure you understand it at this point. Read John Owen or John Gill and return here.
@@RenardGarzaro is that how you test all philosophy? You test philosophy by hammering it down to its logical conclusions. If those conclusions fail to mirror what is in the Scripture then it is to be thrown out by the believer. A famous quote by Whitehead, "The purpose of thinking is to let ideas die instead of us dying." Calvinism is built on the philosophy of divine determinism. It was not "first" built off of the Scripture, but upon a philosophy. That is to go to Scripture with a presupposition and that presupposition colors how the Scripture is interpreted. Without divine determinism, Calvinism and TULIP are absolutely unnecessary to interpret Scripture. As a Christian the authority and standard is the Scripture. I am to submit myself to this revelation; however, there is no Scripture that I can find that requires me to first believe a philosophy before I can believe what Scripture actually says. Philosophy requires logic. And, I would add, that if one fails to drill down any philosophy to its logical conclusions and then merely accepts it and then lives by it, then it may not serve them well but lead them into falsehood.
I believe that Scripture shows us that God has determined "some" things, but in my study of Scripture I have not seen that God has determined "all" things.
@@SugoiEnglish1 It should begin with Scripture, but Calvinism doesn't. Calvinism begins with "the sovereignty of God" which means divine determinism. I don't need to read John Owen or John Gill in order to return here nor do I need what they have to say in order to understand Scripture. I reject "determinism" as defined by either the atheist or the Calvinist. I reject "compatibilism" as defined by either the atheist or the Calvinist. It's that simple. Determinism and compatibilism are both philosophical ideas. I do not need these philosophical ideas in order to understand Scripture.
@@sharonlouise9759 I'd argue both libertarian free willers and calvinist start with scripture but interpret non-essential aspects differently. I look forward to hearing all the answers in heaven and don't want to feel bad about how I treated Christians on the other side if the argument.
Exactly! I've been saying that for years!
The comments under this are so cringe.
"You are determined to believe the lie, but you freely choose to believe the lie."
I legitimately don't understand how people don't see this as plainly A=-A. It blows my mind. Determined means you can not do otherwise, free means you can do otherwise. This is why the antithetical philosophical views to free will philosophy are called determinism.
Predestination is a wonderful example that shows the distinction:
It is predestined (meaning that the results are fixed ahead of time and can not be altered) that those who believe will go to heaven for eternity and that those who do not will go to hell for eternity. This is determined ahead of time meaning that you CANNOT choose to make this function otherwise. You don't get to say, "I don't believe in Jesus but I CHOOSE to go to heaven anyway." That is invalid. Not an option. You are NOT free to choose this to function otherwise because it is determined.
Who is saved is also predetermined ("who" meaning what kinds of people): those who humbly repent and believe. You can't NOT repent and NOT believe and still be saved. Not an option. You are not FREE to choose this to function otherwise.
Those are biblical.
However, who CAN repent and believe is NOT determined. You are free to repent and believe.
This is truly not that complicated. A = A and Calvinists are trapped in bizarro world on this stuff. It's so damaging to the church. I really wish they could see that.
Of course the question is what do the scriptures teach? Not what the human mind can imagine as logical or not. God's revelation at times goes beyond human logic and ability to comprehend it. Noice try, but that just isn't a biblical way to understand what the scriptures teach.
@@SugoiEnglish1 k. There is no way to rebut someone that simply says: "the Bible teaches it."
Do you believe homosexuality a sin?
DW: You make excellent points about how much DOUBLE-SPEAK there is in Calvinism because Determinism is such a radical belief system.
The Calvinist is trying to bridge two completely contradicting world-views.
For example - Calvinists are very uncomfortable with facing the fact that they are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything.
An infallible decree does not grant existence to any ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees. So if it is decreed that Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME-T - that decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE to Calvinist_A. Thus Calvinist_A is not granted a CHOICE simply because NO ALTERNATIVE exists for Calvinist_A to choose.
This is one of the consequences of Determinism which Calvinists are uncomfortable facing.
As a result - all Calvinists follow a certain pattern called *AS-IF* thinking.
1) The Calvinist asserts his doctrine is TRUE
2) The Calvinist treats his doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE in order to retain a sense of human normalcy.
Consequently - Calvinist language is full of DOUBLE_SPEAK
@@caleb.lindsay Straw man fallacy. I didn't say that. I meant that a Christian goes to the scriptures as the final authority when there are debates / disagreements with doctrine. Reread what I posted please.
@@dw6528 Again, we go to the scriptures when there are differences in meaning or interpretation.
The irony of the fact that Calvinists get mad at us for rejecting Calvinism, but if their system is true then God made us reject it and we have no choice in the matter…
Seriously, what do they expect us to do? Reject God’s Sovereign decree that we would reject Calvinism? As if we had the free will to do so?
Seriously, pick a lane.
Who is mad? God doesn't make people think and do dumb things. You freely do, he simply renders it certain to occur! Smarten up!
If it's true and you reject it, it's because you don't believe in truth but believe in the lie according to God who can't lie. Therefore you are responsible for your belief in the lie.
But if God determines all things, God determined my rejection.
The names written in the Book of Life are in the perfect tense, passive voice, indicative. That really is CHECKMATE. It is irrefutable.
Strong's: G1125
English: were written
Code: V-RPI-3S
Long: Verb - Perfect Passive Indicative - 3rd Person Singular
Speech: Verb
👉Tense: Perfect👈
Voice: Passive
Mood: Indicative
Person: 3rd Person
Number: Singular
Revelation 17:8 NKJV
[8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
@@GhostBearCommander Yes and God renders dumb decisions by humans certain to occur at times!
Leighton’s patience amazes me. Calvinism is so stupid and contradictory and he keeps showing how dumb it is and retains his composure. I truly don’t know how he does it. I’ve known a couple Calvinists that aren’t obnoxious about it but it’s hard for me even when I talk to them just because they’re convinced that something is true that’s so asinine. To me it’s simple. If determinism is true then you have no access to truth because you only believe what you believe because it was determined. Every time I hear a Calvinist talk about “the doctrines of grace” I feel less intelligent for having heard it.
Calvinism is just the modern day Pharisee. Most of them are dead in their trespasses and sins. They appear alive, but are dead. Jesus says of them _"are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them"_ -Luke 11:44
LOL...OK son...We aren't the ones out here robbing God of His glory in salvation. Clear?
@@SugoiEnglish1you absolutely rob God of His glory. You malign His character and make Him out to be a liar. The entire false gospel if calvin robs the entire truth and deceives people.
@@SugoiEnglish1 The dead can't rob God of His glory. That's the problem with Calvinists, their disciples of John Calvin rather than Jesus. They claim Sola Scriptura but they don't practice it, putting the words of men above the word of God. Like their predecessors 2000 yrs ago, they still stumble over the Stumbling Stone.
@dionsanchez2775 At least consider if there are any parallels. I wouldn't say this about most calvanists today, but look at the roots. You have men who are calling for and taking the lives of other men, who do not align with their doctrinal beliefs. Also claiming what they are doing is in line with the Bible, clearly not understanding the character of God. The Pharisees did the exact same things, claiming Jesus was a blasphemer and calling for His death. No Calvinist today would call the actions of Zwingley, Luther and Calvin Godly behavior, if those men lived today with the actions they did then. Give them a few centuries and now they're called heroes of the faith. Men can say many things that sound Godly, judge the fruit.
@@kristoferevins5790right. Killing those who disagree is using murder to say, "yall shut up!" Wow, pretty sure Jesus didn't say to do that.✌️😎
Just applied for trinity! Looking forward to potentially taking a class from you Leighton. Your work has helped me come out of a fatalistic mindset and understanding God’s salvific love for the world produces a greater love in me for Him. Your book the Potter’s Promise has been helpful as well-highly recommend to anyone looking for a great resource!
I appreciate your work brother, keep it up.
God bless.
determinism + compatibilism is like trying to imagine the sound of one hand clapping.
One of the most damning indictments of Calvinism is the attitudes and lack of fruit of the spirit of many of its adherents.
@@RenardGarzaro If you are asking which specific fruit I see lacking, it would be love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control.
I know many Calvinists personally, watched many debates between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, read lots of Calvinist writings, and have surveyed hundreds of comment sections where Calvinists interact with non-Calvinists, which inform my opinion on the issue.
If my perception of this issue is accurate, then I would say it is an indictment of a theological system that seems to not produce the fruits of the spirit in its followers, which is what the gospel is supposed to do.
To me, it is really a natural outflow of Calvinism when taken at face value. Under that system, it's hard not to believe you are special, seeing it teaches you are specifically chosen by God for eternal life, or that there should be any genuine care for the lost, given they were specifically chosen for eternal damnation.
I find its adherents talk like they have some extra special revelation, enlightenment, or gnosis if you will, from God which brought them to understand the "truth" of Calvinism, and tend to treat non-Calvinists as "lesser" Christians, as if there could be such a thing, and some even treat non-Calvinists as being non-Christian. As R.C. Sproul once said about Arminians, they are "barely Christian."
How can that type of theology not create an elitist type of attitude towards non-Calvinist Christians, and hinder development of the fruits of the spirit in Calvinists lives?
God bless you brother!
He is the propitiation not only for our sins(saved), but for the sins of the whole world. WHat's so hard to understand? How much is the whole?
1:04:44: Foreknowledge is on "no level" determinative, and sovereignty does not require determinism. If Sproul Jr can make claims without evidence, then I can just as easily make the opposite point without evidence.
Really do admire the majority of Calvinist Preachers, when they are talking Biblically and not talking about Calvinism.
I'm former RCC and really enjoy this channel. God Bless
amen!
There is a difference between a mystery and a contradiction. What the Calvinists claim are mysteries are actually contradictions.
I just have one question for all calvinists? If God has predetermined who He will spend eternity with, then why did Jesus have to be born, die and rise?
EZ one. Because those whom God determined to save out of all fallen humanity had to be redeemed, atoned for, sin-guilt removed.
He did determine who will, it's just not individually. We need to clean up our language on this. It adds so much confusion when we speak too casually, which I know you aren't doing purposefully. God literally did NOT choose certain people: the proud, the wicked, the unrepentant, 1 Corinthians 6, etc.
We must agree that God does choose certain people (I believe "types" or "characteristics of people" is the way "certain people" should be understood which makes it corporate, not individual) to be with Him for eternity because it's both obvious and Biblical. But the Bible does not teach what I would call "unilateral individual predetermined salvation". I think that phrase is an accurate and appropriate phrase representing Calvinistic soteriology (open to criticism, but I think it's fair). That is not taught Biblically, but if it was, we'd either have to simply accept it as Biblically true or believe it makes the God of the NT evil and therefore the NT a false witness against the God of the OT (praise God we don't have that dilemma!)
DW: Your question is a good one!
In Calvinism - there is only *ONE NECESSARY CONDITION* for anything that comes to pass including a person's eternal destiny. And that *ONE NECESSARY CONDITION* is an infallible decree.
Remember - in Calvinism - people are created for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for Calvin's god's good pleasure - before any human is ever created.
That decree makes each person's eternal destiny *INFALLIBLE* and therefore unchangeable.
Jesus dying on a cross is therefore TANGENTIAL to the fact.
So in Calvinism - Jesus dying on a cross is not a NECESSARY CONDITION for anyone's salvation.
In Calvinism - the decree is what defines divine sovereignty
And divine sovereignty (Not Jesus's sacrifice) determines each person's eternal destiny.
@@caleb.lindsay You error in committing the either or fallacy on that. There is another view: God can do what he wants as God and you can whine all you want, still if He is God you have no standard by which you can measure God's actions by. Eph 1*4 Chosen by God in Christ. So, you prefer that God chose an entity from all eternity? Peter contradicts that notion as well. Besides, no one buys a baseball team that has 0 players, 0 admins, 0 concession workers. Your view of a corporate entity does not correspond to what is reality.
@@dw6528 You are confusing the supralapsarian Calvinist view with the infralapsarian view. You need to study a bit more.
Determinism is just plain ridiculous. If it were true, why not just do whatever you want? None of it would matter, would it? Since God would determine my outcome anyway?
God determines only positive outcome. Negative outcome is natural for unsaved person, it is his nature and he is responsible for that.
Well said 👍🙏 Leighton keep rocking the one string because it slays !
Remember, in Calvinism God desires a sinful world.
If God determined a perfect sinless world it would be without exception; but it’s the opposite. In Calvanism, God might as well be Satan if he overthrew God
When you really chew on this, this is potentially the best comment there is on here. The last half I'm not certain I agree with because the world isn't TOTALLY sinful and Christ did come, so there is some redemption to it which Satan would never choose I don't think, but the first half is basically as succinct as it can be said.
Strawman fallacy! Flagged.
@kgar5String No, we are saying God is not like Satan. We keep being told that sin came into the world because God desired it and that He determined the fall of Lucifer and fall of Adam, many times with a "for His glory and good pleasure", like the cherry on top. But to make God seem to want sin and to be glorified by a choice to introduce sin, and to take pleasure in sin: this is very serious, and why Calvinists are blind to that fact, we just don't get.
@@RenardGarzaro No. It is a logical fallacy that people inadvertently use to refute their own arguments.
@@RenardGarzaro hahahahaha this is all he can do. He just throws around "fallacy" and then insults everyone.
Jesus prays we would be one just as He and the Father are, but then decrees we won’t be
Jesus was praying for the elect in John 17. You’re misunderstanding the doctrine of God’s Decree. God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but at the same time, doesn’t violate the will of the creature.
@@scienceandbibleresearch *Jesus was praying for the elect in John 17*
Yeah, I'm talking about believers. Jesus prays for unity but decrees our doctrinal positions to be ununified.
*God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but at the same time, doesn’t violate the will of the creature*
I'm not misunderstanding anything. First off, I reject this statement as having any biblical or philosophical support.
For arguments sake however, I will accept it. If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then that includes "the will of the creature". Therefore you've simply presented a distinction without a difference. What you're essentially saying is "God doesn't violate the will He determined for us to have" or even more specifically "God doesn't violate His own ordinations".
@@TKK0812It's amazing to me that Calvinists have twisted themselves into such intellectual knots to defend their position that they can't understand what you just pointed out about God's decree (by their definition) completely nullifying any creaturely will in the first place.
@@DrDemolition97 Exactly
@@TKK0812 : "Jesus prays for unity but decrees our doctrinal positions to be ununified."
- You were right the first time (i.e., "Jesus prays we would be one..."). Jesus prays for several things in John 17. Doctrinal unity isn't one of them.
The fact that there is doctrinal disunity among believers is due to our own misunderstandings. He's allowed this to occur for his good purpose at this point in time.
" What you're essentially saying is "God doesn't violate the will He determined for us to have" or even more specifically "God doesn't violate His own ordinations."
- That's an erroneous oversimplification of what I actually said. Both God and man have their own wills. God's will shall be done and he doesn't violate the will of the creature in the process of accomplishing his will.
Thank God for finally some clarity without going to the roman catholics
Regarding your poll at the 12 minute mark
You should account for only the calvinist replies. 81.6% of calvinists said true, and only 18.4% of calvinists said not true.
Most were true to their systematic. The # of the non calvinist responses really skewed the poll.
Such good teaching on this, brother. Those trying to live daily under theistic determinism must be continually worn out.
Thank God for your ministry in this area. It really goes hand in hand with evangelism.
"He that winneth souls is wise." Prov. 11:30. ☝️
"TULIP" is the Gospel of the sovereign Calvinist potter God determining unbelief in the hated and unwanted nonchosen non-elect goat people.
Calvinism is just another name for the Gospel.
-CH Spurgeon.
@@SugoiEnglish1it's also just another name for living in a simulation
@@monaroxyclio We may be in a simulation, but indeed it's God's.
@@SugoiEnglish1 Calvinism definitely is not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose again 1 Cor 15. That God chose some people to save and not others is NOT good news. Even Spurgeon can be wrong.
@@jcthomas3408 Calvinism affirms 1 Cor 15. And? Flowers can be wrong too as we are showing here today.
Leighton, this is perhaps the best appeal I've seen you make (and that's high praise). Very well done, sir.
(PS, I suggest you keep this one handy, so to speak, to repost if you find yourself unable for whatever reason to present something on this channel for a while. It's a great mid-sized treatment of the theme here, well worth recasting occasionally, I feel.)
The idea that no one or very few who left Calvinism was never really Calvinist or doesn’t understand it is as arrogant and unsubstantiated as Flat Eartherism. It should be laughed out of the building
On it's face yes. But when the former Calvinist opens their mouth and confirms that they don't then your objection falls apart.
@@SugoiEnglish1 almost never happens, lol
Flat Earthers are gaining momentum all around the globe!
@@ryanwall5760 It happened on this channel!
@@RenardGarzaro Jesus knows what he’s talking about. I just don’t think *you* know what he’s talking about there. (Hint: It ain’t Calvinism)
Leighton, the truth is, though most Calvinists won't openly admit it, they do not believe non-Calvinists are actually saved. Oh, they grant that one can be saved without understanding TULIP, but they also believe that once presented with TULIP from Scripture, as they explain it, then rejection of it proves you are not a true Christian. Once you understand their real position on this, you will better understand them.
Hahhaha. Hasty generalization fallacy! Flagged! I don't think that about any free willy....
@@SugoiEnglish1 I should have clarified. I don't think every Calvinist thinks all non-Calvinists are not saved. I do believe, however, it is a common belief amongst many Calvinists. I say that as one finally reconsidering Calvinism after being immersed in it for 40+ years.
@@sbag11 Perhaps. But none of the ones I have known or read since 1988.
Definitely disagree. If you belive the essentials of the faith, you are saved regardless of your views on Calvinism. I don't know any Calvinist who would say differently. John Newton said Calvinist should be humbled that God saw fit to reveal doctrines of grace to them while having patience toward Christians whom God didn't see fit to reveal them. I agree with him and think we should all show more grace to each other.
@@RenardGarzaroEphesians 2:8-9 doesn't mean what you think it does. The Koine Greek word for faith has a feminine gender. The Greek word used for "this" meaning the thing being referred to as the gift, is neuter. Since the genders don't match, then the gift cannot be faith. The gift therefore is the entirety of salvation by grace through faith, not just faith.
Believe and you’ll know you are chosen.
Unless your belief is evanescent grace.
Jesus came to give us living water. Calvinism takes and adds several tablespoons of manure to that water. So if not all calvinists are the same that just means that they put only three table spoons of manure per cup of living water instead of 6 table spoons.
You just affirmed Calvinism while trying to refute it. LOL. The living water is the Spirit who gives life, who enables you to call on God, who caused you to believe, who took the work of Christ and applied it...Thank you!
@@SugoiEnglish1 As soon as a determinist argues for anything he is destroying his deterministic ideology in the process. Calvinists prefer Calvin's neoplatonic philosophy over the word of God. Under Calvinism the calvinist god has decreed for you to believe what you believe and me to believe what I believe. He has also determined all of the sins that each of us commit otherwise he could not be sovereign. Calvinism destroys the credibility of the Christian faith. Calvinism originated with Augustine the founder of the Catholic Church who was into Manichean Gnosticism for ten years before he came to the church. But if you listened to this video and didn't hear any truth then you will have to rely on all your Calvinistic presuppositions.
@Soteriology101w/Dr. LeightonFlowers, I am very excited about your new channel. I am hoping that you'll be discussing our present tense walk of salvation in sanctification; how to live the transformed life, what it means to pick up our cross, etc and not doctrine. Also maybe have a segment on the Messianic Secret. Anyway, I'm really hoping that it isn't going to be on doctrine because TH-cam is saturated with that. I'm hoping for segments which edify the body of Christ as they walk with Jesus.
Yeah, that is clearly more in his wheel-house than whining about what a great segment of the church believes.
No Calvinist has any right to judge and condemn anyone for anything. If God determines everything, it's not any person's fault if they are in error. This is the best rebuttal I have seen of this utterly illogical / untenable position. God does indeed know the end from the beginning., but He is not confined to time. We are free to follow our will in the temporal timeline, but God is aware of the entirety of time from His POV in eternity, i.e. the results of our choices, and the consequences thereof. He is also able to interject His will at any point - He is God, and can do as He pleases. However, in general, he does not, as He established Free will. The fruit of tree Adam and Eve ate of was of the 'Knowledge of Good AND evil.' Man knows and is capable of both, but more inclined to evil due to our fallen nature.
Is man punished for his sins (as per the Bible) or is he punished for the lack of atonement for their sins (as per Calvinistic Reformed Theology)⁉️
@@RenardGarzaro that sounds like a "gotcha" question. The answer is both yes and no. Yes, their sins were atoned for. But because they refused to accept that atonement and chose to make their own (ultimately unsuccessful) atonement, they find themselves in hell, which is not the fault of God, and not because atonement wasn't made for them.
@@RenardGarzaro
The bible doesn't say all sin was atoned for.
That is the error of LA adherents.
"Basphemy of the Holy Spirit wil never be forgiven."
- Jesus
@@RenardGarzaro
What is God feeling sad about here?
👇
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing" (Lk13:34)
"I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts" (Isa65:2)
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi The blasphemy of the HolySpirit is the sin of UNBELIEF. Which is what ultimately sends every man who resists the Good News brought by the HolySpirit, to hell.
That's why God warns:
"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts7:51)
"Today, when you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion" (Heb3:15)
Jesus paid for all sins of all mankind throughout all of history. No one goes to the lake of fire for the reason of sin. People go to the lake of fire because their names are not found written in the book of life, they do not have life, eternal life. See great white throne judgment in Rev 20
First, there must be a problem needing a solution. For Augustine there were 2 problems, 2 issues needing a solution:
1. How can a benevolent God cause or allow evil?
What did Augustine consider evil? Catastrophic natural disasters, plagues, and disease, he considered evil.
2. Christians bragging about their salvation.
Augustine sought a solution for both 1 and 2.
For #1: Augustine decided that these "evils," were determined by God for the glorification of God.
For #2: No Christian, no human, has any responsibility in his salvation.....because humans are totally depraved. Therefore, total inability.
Mistake 1: Augustine labeled certain human suffering as evil that were not evil.
Mistake 2: To eliminate Christians bragging about their having any part in their salvation, declare humans totally unable to do anything positive at all.
From this, the added belief that humans must be regenerated before they can believe the gospel.
A person may correctly identify a problem, and create an incorrect solution.
A person can wrongly identify something,i.e., All human suffering is not evil. Cancer is not evil. Rape is evil. Both cause suffering.
I used to be a Protestant but now, a Catholic. I love your videos on Calvinism. I actually believe that there is a link between narcissism and Calvinism unfortunately,
Catholicism is more corrupt than calvinism and you both share the same "father" in augustine
27:27 no. people do not think about what they're saying, prior to saying it. they're saying it, just to say it
26:10, those terms aren't mutually exclusive you can use and cause things, as a matter of fact most things you cause (at least conciously) you're using it.
A question about Romans 9.
Option 1: The Calvinist says the interlocutor is a non-Calvinist questioning predestination.
Option 2: Dr Flowers says the interlocutor is a hardened Jew questioning God's judgement.
Option 3: Could the interlocutor be a confused Jew who thinks God owes the whole nation / race salvation?
Im finally admitting this. Calvin's soteriology and the Gospel of Grace has convinced me that i am created to be sent to hell. I believe in the good God of Abraham, who sent Jesus to save the world. However, Paul's letter to the church in Rome says, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Who am I to question God making me for hell? In the Gospel of Matthew, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." My mind wants him, my heart does not. I cannot obey him. God made Judas to fulfill the prophecies. Whether I want to agree with Calvinism or not, it's so in my mind and heart. Everyone in Calvinism looks at themselves being the chosen, not everyone is the hero. Some will say, "no he just passes over them." I have prayed so many times that he does not pass over me, yet I am still the evil wretch that I am. I am a tree planted to be logs for the fires of hell. I cannot be so prideful to believe God elected me. I am even the first born, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Once again in Romans, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" I sit on the sidelines in Chruch and wheep knowing I will never enter his kingdom.
A poem I wrote a while ago:
At me the ravens laugh,
Rain pitter patter on my shoulder,
Slick leaves snicker to make fall,
Oak empty and whithered I look aghast,
For he has passed this snag over,
Other trees strong and tall,
Unwanted whoredom under oak boughs,
Husbander has left an axe,
Cold from the snow are housed,
Wood burned is better than flax,
Why sow an Oak for fruit?
The story of the prodigal son can be your story. I know you say that you are like Esau, and considering your perspective, you would consider yourself the older son in this story. But the older son was never forced by his father to hate his brother, and if it were believed to be true, how much clearer would it be that the Calvinists god is not loving? But besides that point, neither son is forced to make a response by their father. In fact, the prodigal walks home before the father runs to him. I'm not trying to offend you or get too personal, but God is calling you, and all who are lost to Him, he is waiting at the door for you to come back. No dear soul, don't listen to the voice of the older brother just because he is older (false teachers and the devil himself). The voice of the Holy Spirit is true. Romans 11:21-23
Romans 9:20 yet again.
Romans 9:20 is not a reprobate objecting to calvinism so saying “Romans 9:20” to those who don’t interpret it as you do is meaningless
@@TKK0812 with all due respect, your comment is meaningless.
@@bryanpratt5850 sorry brother but this is just scripture taken out of context. its not a good way to do hermeneutics. Its similar to Charismatics where they rip out verses out of context about wealth and apply it to themselves. Context is the letter in Romans 9 is about Jews and their covenant and the "Who are you o Man" passage is a Jewish Objection to the Grafting in of Gentiles to Jewish promises. Its a broadening of scope not limiting
Edit: My reply not saving. Romans 9 is for the Jews cause context say it. Romans7:1 “those who know the law refers to Jews” until Romans 11:12.
Only at Romans 11:13 where focus shifts to gentiles
“Or do you not know, brothers-for I am speaking to those who know the law-that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?”
Romans 7:1 ESV
“Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the d*ed? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.”
Romans 11:13-16 ESV
@@merrickc1876 chapter 11 talks about grafting. Romans 9 is about election. Read verse 11 and on to 20. Where are you getting the whole,”who are you oh man, is a Jewish objection to the grafting in of the gentiles”?
@@bryanpratt5850 But of course it has meaning. It means we don't interpret Romans 9:20 the same way a calvinist does. You may not agree, but to say my comment is "meaningless" is, well, meaningless.
Are you really that blind to the totality of scripture Laton?
If Calvinism is true, anyone's ignorance of Scripture is God's fault.
Well, dear brother, atonement had to be made first, or else, Adam and all his descendants that would be saved, WOULD PERPETUATE SIN IN THE LORDS PRESENCE FOREVER. "Lest they take of the tree of life and live (with God) forever. Sin would have been in His presence and He could not cast them out. That is why they could not get back to the tree of life , and eat of it. Atonement had to be made, to make the TUNICS (TYPE OF CHRIST SACRIFICE) that He covered them with effectual, along with everyone else that would be justified by faith.
Excellent question
Love to you all brethren, in the best love, HIS ETERNAL UNCONDITIONAL!
Both God and man have their own will. Luke records Jesus being delivered "over to their will" (Luk 23:25). And he also records that it was the will of the Father for Jesus to be crucified (Luk 22:42). Exactly how this works without God being implicated in their sin is a spiritual mystery.
Agree that humans have wills...but imo they don't have the ability to call upon Jesus apart from the Spirit giving them life...
@@SugoiEnglish1 : I agree we have to be born again by the Holy Spirit first in order to believe and be saved.
@@SugoiEnglish1 : I would also add that we are unwilling to believe apart from being born again. We are able but unwilling because we love our sin.
@@scienceandbibleresearch well said
@@jeremywolffbrandt7488 : Thanks!
For the last question Caprio: You assume moral imperatives imply human ability in the case of savingly believing on Jesus. Prove it please! We hold different pre-suppositions on that! You are making the claim, so you need to prove it.
Any presupposition suggests extra biblical. If so then it is not worth fighting or arguing over. Focus of following Christ and ask yourself why your focus is Calvinism rather than being conformed to the image of Christ. Don’t let the enemy distract you.
@@YeshuaSaves3 I can multi-task thanks!
@@SugoiEnglish1
Ok, well I pray that this task concerning Calvinism etc would not bring about division with the people around you. There is enough dividing the truth and this issue should not be salvific. I say this because I have people at my church who can’t change the topic because that’s all their focus is on.
@@YeshuaSaves3 Well, perhaps your same concern ought to be equally directed at the one who made this video!
@@SugoiEnglish1
That would be true if it wasn’t for the reality of the situation. Calvinist are the ones who focus so much on Calvin’s teachings rather than Jesus which is why people like Flowers must bring correction and destroy the imbalance. He is doing Gods work.
Will Leighton ever talk about something other than calvinism? Who actually watches these really long videos of his?
Yet here you are...
@@ericedwards5034 I've never watched a full video.. just curious if he has anything else to add to the table besides critiques of calvinism
@@UltraAar if you've never watched a full video, why comment? This channel is specifically dedicated to his critiques of Calvinism so that this is separate from his former job as director of evangelism and apologetics for Texas Baptists (one of the SBC associations there) and his current job as a professor at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary.
If you come to Soteriology101 this is what you get, because this is what it is. Dr. Flowers does plenty of other things elsewhere, but this is what it is.
@@RenardGarzaro " it is impossible for him to actually get what God is saying" ... um... der... your doctrines states he cannot understand because of Gods eternal decreed (all things that come to pass)... including your post and my reply 🤖🤖🤖🤖
Based on calvinism teaching, all calvinists are caused by God to believe calvinism to be true even though it contradicts the words of scripture
Without watching I can say that calvinists DON'T think that God predetermines unbelief - it is just natural behavior of every human being. It's nothing to do with God, but with us. It is our choice to not believe.
😂 But on Calvinism, God determines our fallen nature. You can't absolve God of responsibility if you believe in the Calvinist idea of sovereignty.
@donatist59 no, it is your interpretation about what Calvinists think, but it is not honest interpretation. It is non-sequitur fallacy. We need to look what is really in Bible. And in Bible there is directly highlighted man responsibility. We all are responsible about our own sins. No one else. Fallen nature is coming because of sin of Adam and we ALL are under it.
I don't know maybe you are confused by hyper-calvinism, which should be rejected. Bible reveals both things - human responsibility and God's sovereignhty. He chooses His bride. As we have free will to choose our wife, so He have also choice with whom He will spend eternity with. We can't break in Heaven against His will. He is in control. Nothing happens which would surprise Him. If He don't want something to happen, it won't happen (Amalech didn't touch Sarah at Genesis 20:6). If something bad happens - so God allowed it for some reason (Judas betrayal and Jesus death on the cross for example). At the same time it doesn't mean He produced it - He just let it happen. Because Bible tells us that He is not "a source of evil". We will always rebel against God and it is easy for us to do evil. We won't do nothing good as Romans 1-3 is telling us. It's our choice to always rebel against God. So we would want to choose Him He must intervene. So He removes our "heart of stone" and gives us "heart of flesh" and we are "born again". This is not something we produce. So this is paradox - 100% our choice and 100% God's choice. BTW - free will is mentioned only once in the Bible and was meant towards God. He have truly free will. We don't - we have limited knowledge and impacted minds.
@@IvarsKublins I stand by what I wrote. If man is responsible for sin then God is not sovereign on Calvinism.
Hey Whiners about the Calvinistic view, come on in to Rouge Calvinist tonight. Share your views. YOUR VIEWS, not just a critique of the Calvinist view. Come on in son...
why
Calvinist here. The answer is yes (to the video title). I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand from the Bible.
From The Bible we get to choose whom we will serve as Joshua calls Israel to. God is not the author of Evil nor can we say that God is the one who tempts us. Our own desires tempt us and we get to choose to obey God or obey our desires.
@@YeshuaSaves3 This applies to all but calling upon the lord in a savingly way.
@@YeshuaSaves3 I'd agree. We can choose whatever we want. We can only want evil until God regenerates us. Romans 9 seems very clear that God made beforehand vessels for honor to show his mercy and vessels of wrath which he prepared for destruction to show his power.
@@jeremywolffbrandt7488
God does not arbitrarily create vessels for wrath. There is our God given ability to reject or accept The Truth.
Read john 1 where the son is sent to his own, his own did not receive Him…but to all who DID RECEIVE Him gave He the power/right to become children/sons of God. Receiving precedes regeneration.
@@YeshuaSaves3 DW: In Calvinism - humans are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything - simply because an infallible decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE from which it decrees - and thus NO ALTERNATIVE is granted existence for any human to choose.
For example:
If it is decreed Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME_T - that decree is infallible and does not grant existence to any ALTERNATIVE.
Calvinist_A does not have a CHOICE in the matter - simply because NO ALTERNATIVE exists for Calvinist_A to choose.
We are predestined TO justification/sonship. Unbelievers are responsible for their sin. God determines who goes to heaven.
God determines who goes to heaven = infallibility
Man determines he goes to heaven = fallibility
If God left it to man to determine to be saved, everyone would fall away, see the parable of the sower.
Ephesians 1:5 NKJV
[5] having predestined us to👉 adoption as sons 👈by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Predestined us to adoption AS sons ✅️
Predestined us to adoption AS glorification after we are justified ❌️
DW: In Calvinism - *EVERYTHING* concerning creation (including what creatures will be held responsible for) is established by a decree at the foundation of the world.
1) The decree determines what a person will be held responsible for.
2) And the decree is *NOT CONDITIONED* upon the creature or the condition thereof - it is SOLELY within himself according to his good pleasure.
For example - Calvin's god - according to his good pleasure - can hold a new-born baby responsible for a tree falling in Africa 20 thousand years ago - with the consequence of eternal torment in a lake of fire for Calvin's gods good pleasure.
And the Calvinist in such case - is required to assert Calvin's god is un-impeachable and no human judgement is allowed.
Calvin's god *MADE* that new-born baby specifically for that judgment.
John Calvin explains:
-quote
by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god *THOUGH THE REASON DOES NOT APPEAR* they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. - (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121)
Who said man can determine he goes to heaven? I've never heard anyone say that, and certainly don't believe it myself.
@@johnknight3529 Why don't you go ask the fall aways from the parable of the sower? Ask them why they didn't determine to stay saved.
@@johnknight3529 Calvinists will sometimes erroneously make such claims against NON-Calvinists.
But they are committing a logical fallacy.
They are conflating what that which is nature with that which is supernatural.
For example - in many instances where Jesus will heal someone - he will command that person to do something - like "Take up your bed and walk"
Then when that person obeys the command - they are healed.
They did not heal themselves simply by choosing to be obedient to Jesus' command.
The person obeys which is the natural
God heals - which is the supernatural part
Calvinists often conflate the two together - kind of turning humans into puppets.
@@dw6528 All we see is the person rising up...but other texts tell us it is God the Spirit that gives life!!!!!