Is there any possible universe in which we as humans could have not killed Christ? Is it possible that our savior actually would have never died on a cross for our sins? And if not how are we “free” the very fact that we are not sovereign and God is shows we don’t actually have autonomous free will as God does. Our “free will” is nothing more than me as a parent allowing my 2 year old to run freely in the house..but I’ve limited him from going out the front door and absolutely have limited him from driving down the street or buying plane tickets to fly to another country. He is “free” but there’s levels…and as a teenager I’m sure he won’t feel as “free” the more he realizes how limited he is. We say things like God is sovereign but that again is an admission to the fact that we are not. What does it mean for God to be sovereign? He can do as he pleases..we’re we can do as we please but under the confinements of Gods restrictions. I can heal at will..God can..I can’t know all things..God does..I can’t even do the things God wants me to do lol I literally need his Spirit, I need his life in me. The Bible literally talks about predestined. The Bible talks about knowing man in the mothers womb..the Bible talks about raising a man up for a specific time. Free will is limited and in that regard freedom isn’t really free
@@ivylagrone8632 because the Bible denies human free will and repeatedly emphasizes that the Lord does whatever He pleases in heaven and on earth and never even hints at God limiting Himself for the sake of human autonomy.
Dr. Flowers, before you came along and explained Provisionism I never felt comfortable aligning with either Arminianism or Calvinism. Both always seemed to fall short of the totality of who God is. So, I just went along thinking I must be a terrible Christian or that I was missing something somewhere. Then, I began watching your videos and it all fell into place for me. I no longer felt like a stranger in a strange land. I've supported your ministry ever since. Thank you.
nothing more than me as a parent allowing my 2 year old to run freely in the house..but I’ve limited him from going out the front door and absolutely have limited him from driving down the street or buying plane tickets to fly to another country. He is “free” but there’s levels…and as a teenager I’m sure he won’t feel as “free” the more he realizes how limited he is. We say things like God is sovereign but that again is an admission to the fact that we are not. What does it mean for God to be sovereign? He can do as he pleases..we’re we can do as we please but under the confinements of Gods restrictions. I can heal at will..God can..I can’t know all things..God does..I can’t even do the things God wants me to do lol I literally need his Spirit, I need his life in me. The Bible literally talks about predestined. The Bible talks about knowing man in the mothers womb..the Bible talks about raising a man up for a specific time. Free will is limited and in that regard freedom isn’t really free. I truly want to see what you guys are seeing because I’m absolutely missing it. I hate when people deem us as Calvinist as if we’re “second class citizens” or unworthy of love..this channel and the comments are the reason why I’ll never want to be among this company..the hatred sucks if I’m being honest. A Christian channel that isn’t aimed at sharing the gospel or talking about things that really matter like human trafficking or how to reach the lost..it’s just a bunch of people who hatch many Christian’s for a doctrine that isn’t even primary…it’s just sad..Christian’s times can be spent doing so much more
Freewill has no limitations! That's why we're in this mess! People will soon worship the Antichrist as God. Do you really believe that God allows it or He lets people make their own free choice to worship the devil?
@@SundayVibesmusic a man is sovereign over his house, even though he doesn’t determine all of his wife’s actions. Calvinists believe God can do anything but be sovereign and choose to give man free will. Keep listening to Non Calvinists, and eventually the light switch will flip - and your eyes will open and all the verses will fall like dominos - non of them mean what you think in Calvinism. I’ve been there, it will click eventually but you have to stop listening to Calvinists so it stops being hammered into your brain. -- how I was able to get out of it, Ty God!!! Check out Steve Gregg’s 14 part series called Gods sovereignty and man’s free will. It will help. God bless.
@@Jus4kiks with all due respect yes I agree with you man is “sovereign” over the house but you can’t compare my “sovereignty” over my house to the All Mighty Gods sovereignty. It seems silly the comparison you’re making..I can’t even stop myself from getting sick..or what if the power goes off in my home? What about if a tornado or flood destroys my home. Again I mean no disrespect but this is what I’m talking about. Yes on a basic level of understanding and every day talk I get what you’re saying but logically and biblically the two are nothing alike. You can’t compare anything to God and that is the point..when you try to give human examples of what God is like you’ll always fall short
When my first daughter was born, I was 26. I was standing in the hospital room holding her when she was a few minutes old. My wife was overcome with joy and weeping with delight. My only thought was, “I wonder if she’s been predestined for heaven or for hell?” What should’ve been such a happy and loving moment was robbed from me by my false Calvinist beliefs. That day was the turning point, 11 years ago, and I’ve never looked back. Praise God.
Dr Michael Brown in a debate with James White said the same thing Frank said here. that Calvinist don’t take Gods sovereignty enough as to where God has to rig the game to make His will work instead of making it work in spite of our free will
Yes. And, it's interesting that Satan used that same tactic in the garden of Eden. He basically convinced Eve that God rigged the game and was keeping something great from her!
Frank has always been sound on the Christian basics, in my experience, and his critique of Calvinism is also sound. Always great to listen to him and his Jersey accent, especially in conversation with Leighton!
imho, this is one of Turek's big weak points. Well, this, and his difficulty with plainly answering a person that they're going to hell if they don't believe in Jesus Christ to save them from their sins. (there's a video out there)
@@leonardu6094 Yes. It's hard to think that someone of his caliber hasn't studied Calvinism well, but his comments on why he thinks Calvinism doesn't work are quite shallow. They're a clear indicator that he ought to spend more time checking it out.
Glad to see Frank is turning against Calvinism because he never believed it but now that he sees the horrible things it entails he’s definitely as against it as we are
Long before Calvin with with John Calvin subscribe to what they now call Calvinism long before he subscribe to that the Bible had already subscribe to it but that hit you because Frank Turek knows that we are chosen without him first choosing us and drawing Us near him that's what the Bible says so the Bible makes it clear not everybody's chosen that's why there's even a series called The Chosen that's right because not everybody's chosen but we God knows everything so God knows who would have chose him back who would have believed the gospel and who would not have that's why there's some that are chosen something or not
@@Rileyed God knew us when we were in our mother's womb also the other thing is is it God chose us we cannot go to God's without him choosing us the Bible makes it clear us on her own do not go to God on her own because we love our sin God has to choose us he draws Us near him anybody who gets saved that includes atheist and others murderers Etc when they get saved it's because they were chosen and he knows God knows everything so obviously God knows who was going to choose him back who would never ever accept it the Bible is very clear on the chosen ones that's why they even have a series called The Chosen it's extremely biblical everybody's not chosen with those of us that are born again obviously are you have a problem with that you might want to talk to God cuz God makes the rules and he knows he knows who will choose him back and he knows who will never accept the gospel no matter what we don't get to make the rules God did
I love Mr. Turek's comparison of Calvigod to Allah. That is true and it's an elephant in the room, AND it describes some of the shared blunt instrument behaviors between Islamic faith and Calvinists.
The comparison is ignorant and incomplete. It's akin to when atheists try to lump Christianity, Judaism and Islam into "Abrahamic religions". the god of Islam is capricious. The Triune God Yahweh is not. Islam rejects the deity of Christ and the crucifixion and faith alone for salvation; so a "comparison" is weak at best. Shall we be compared to Muslims and Jews because " hey look! We're all monotheists! "
@@jesuschristsaves9067 You mean by debating them, correcting them.....sharing with them the true Christ and Savior?? Or are only non-Muslims to be evangelized??
@@josephgarrett3075 No one mentioned anything about evangelism. But since you’ve introduced the topic. We see how glorified white is by the Muslim community. Where are the ex-Muslims he’s lead to the lord? ZERO. Christian prince, Hatun Tash, David Wood, Jay Smith, Sam Shamoun etc.. have testimonials from ex-Muslims, and how their ministry has lead them to Jesus Christ. Yet, they are hated by the Muslim community. With white, it’s the opposite. The correct gospel? What Calvinism? No sir. Calvinism is not the “true” gospel.
My friend who is a Calvinist and professional apologist told the audience, and I quote, "God is responsible for evil, but God is not to blame for evil" 🤦♂️
That is what many Calvinist state. That God causes/determines all things, but yet, since He is God, He is somehow not responsible for them in some mysterious way. The Bible is very clear. God is good. We need to keep that in our minds, hearts, and souls. That God really is GOOD.
The Calvinists view is in complete conflict and contradiction with scripture. James 1 is clear "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God” [for temptation does not originate from God, but from our own flaws]; for God cannot be tempted by [what is] evil, and He Himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away, enticed and baited [to commit sin] by his own [worldly] desire (lust, passion)."
@@Yoyoprojon I have actually seen Calvinists explain "No we don't say God tempts us to evil, God MAKES us do evil, so it's not contradicting the Bible". I'm like, bro that's worse... You do get how that's worse right? 🤦♂️
I've always said they are more interested in converting people to Calvinism, than they are to Christ. Does it make sense the world had to wait 15 centuries after Christ to get clarity on the doctrine of salvation? Of course, NOT.
Has anyone ever met someone who studied the Bible and came to believe that it teaches Calvinism but they also came to realize they unfortunately were not one of the pre-chosen elect? In other words, I have never met a Calvinist who did not think they were one of the elect.
They say they do not have free will, yet they freely choose to believe that they are “chosen”. That does not make sense. They also believe they do not have to go out to the ends of the earth and tell everyone about hat Christ did for them.
Sadly, I have heard people use the Calvinist view as an excuse to not believe. They blame God, who they don't believe in, for their rebellion against Him. SMH
@@janwilson6763 This is why I think the doctrine came from Satan. Is he not the accuser constantly condemning but never taking responsibility for his own actions? Satan to God: "God you created me to fail so that you would get all of the glory (that Satan himself covets). The whole system was rigged from the beginning." See what I mean?
That's just semantics. You said the same thing two different ways. I'll say it another-we can choose to forfeit the redemption and salvation that Jesus purchased on the cross, or we can choose to allow him to save us. We can choose to be saved.
@LonelyStranger-g5u No. Not at all. Do you have authority over your own Salvation? Of course not. Only God has the authority to save. That's called Grace that God implements his authority to grant us salvation if we choose to come to him.
I've always argued that it takes no real power to make a barbie doll do what you want. But it takes much power to overcome free will of Jackie chan and beat him in a fight. Us having free will actually reveals just how supremely powerful God is.
I think Bro Turek has hit on a big part of it "easier". HOWEVER, it is likely just the newness of the subject and the peer groups pressure to learn it. I've always presented that God's sovereignty bestowed us with free will and even with that....His plans are never thwarted. Nothing is impossible for God!!!
This reminds me of a recent STR podcast where Greg was trying to explain sovereignty to a teen caller. It was really bad. I'm an STR Strategic Partner and love the work that they do, but this is one area where Greg seems to get lost.
I’ve emailed and called STR. The inconsistency Greg continues to subscribe to of reformed calvinism immensely diminishes his ministry Integrity matters. Calvinism reformed theology are absurd in basic application of faith.
I really respect Dr. Turek, does a great job debating topics. But to be completely honest, some of his answers rubbed me wrong. I think a thought Calvinists have about the other side is we think too highly of ourselves and that we don't see the seriousness of sin. I say that to compliment Leighton. You have really grown and understood what the best arguments are and how to present them. Your focus in soteriology has truly blessed others and I thank you my brother! Keep working for the kingdom
Frank hit the nail on the head when he said calvinism promotes the idea of whatever God wills is good. This is exactly what medieval Islamic scholars argued, and even Martin Luther held to a voluntarist view. However, whatever God wills is good MUST be consistent with his nature, otherwise God is a relativist. This is the problem set forth in Plato's Euthyphro's dilemma.
I knew there was something wrong with "Calvinism" when a Calvinist I knew said little children should not be allowed to sing the song "Jesus Loves Me", because he said Jesus does not love all children. Augustine was trying to get children into an Old Covenant relationship with God through water baptism. The term "new covenant" is not found in the man-made confessions of Reformed Covenant Theology, even though it is in the Bible multiple times. This is the rotten fruit produced by confusing the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai, and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. New Covenant Whole Gospel: What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Watch the TH-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
As a Calvinist, here to listen to those who disagree with me, so that I can better investigate ways to love others and also what I believe, Mr. Flowers does a good job of being kind to his opponents. Mr. Turek, not so much.
Two of my faves right here. 30+ years ago I remember thinking "What is going to happen when we lose all these great leaders and teachers we have around today?" The answer is simple - the Lord raises up new teachers and leaders as the old ones move on.
A.W. Tozer - " Man's will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." That should be front and center in every Provisionist's minds. You, Dr. Flowers, are ABSOLUTELY correct! THANK YOU!!!
Just coming across this video a year after its airing. I didn't know Frank Turek was not a Calvinist. That's good to hear! This was a great conversation! I really enjoyed it! Now, what about PSA?
No, in fact I was a little shocked when Frank conceded that the Calvinist's can "make a case." Though Frank admits that their case is interpreted wrong, I would go as far as to say it's not even a case. It's heresy (strong word here), but that's just my opinion.
I think part of the problem with Calvinism, is reading theology back into the text, rather than reading theology out of the text. One example is the use of the words "choose", "chose", "chosen", etc. These words have taken on a theological weight beyond what is demanded by scripture. John 6:70-71 is a demonstration of this: Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him. Calvinism frequently reads the doctrine of unconditional election into the word "choose" when God is doing the choosing. But here, Jesus chose Judas? So is Jesus referring to a choosing to salvation? No. Jesus is referring to the selection of his disciples.
Jimmy Akin has a really good study in the word, "chosen," in scripture that shows how the word is abused in modern dialogue on this issue, it's well worth the read.
@@JudeMichaelPeterson hey Jude... (See what I did there?)🤣... I know you've heard it a thousand times!! 😍🙏... Thanks very much but I'm not confused at all on the issue!... In fact it's so clear and simple, "that a fool, though he were a wayfaring man from another country, should not err therein" 👍🙏... Pride and overthinking is the problem... In fact I've been through that trial a few times!! 👍 Again! Thank you for your service! You are very kind sir!!! 🙏
@@jimhughes1070 my comment was in agreement with the original comment. I would be wary of fearing overthinking, I've never heard anyone concerned about overthinking who was not themselves under thinking. No offense intended, that's just a phrase I've learned to hate after hearing it many a time from under thinking people in leadership positions.
@@JudeMichaelPeterson that's a good point my friend!! I was trying to think of something considerate to say (I actually know why they do what they do)... I always hated "he's overconfident!!" 🤣🤣🤣... In the case of 2,000 religions built on One book 🤣... That's the definition and "poster boy" of overthinking! 🤣... A single line out of "gone with the wind" could never draw so many " interpretations"... The book is straight forward... Including warnings against gendering "confusion"😭 if one's argument is "based" (that's what the book "says") then you're standing on pretty good ground. Arguing against the plain script,... I would say that is... "not inspired by the author" 🤣(you know the one that created the cause and effect universe) wherever you fall on "so simple that a fool, no he were a wayfaring man, should not err there in"... Thank you for looking out for your fellow man! 🙏🙏👍
How does it glorify God to preach the Gospel to people who were never destined to believe. To glorify God is to show His glory in this world by what we do and say. There's no glory to God in preaching to those God has already determined to condemn. It's just another eerie idea of Calvinism that makes no sense whatsoever.
How could anyone who believes in hard determinism ever feel guilty for their sins? And how could there even be such a thing as sin if we are doing exactly what God wants us to do? Sin is going against God's will. If hard determinism is true, then when we sin we are going against and doing the will of God at the same exact time. Try to make sense of that.
@chrisbera7952 I pity anyone who believes God is the cause for all the wickedness in the world. The devil has really deceived them. Imagine saying, when you do something wrong, God made me do it. How crazy is that?!
*CRITICAL UNDERSTANDING CONCERNING CALVINISM AND SCRIPTURE* There is a critical weakness which all Calvinists have with scripture. The following instructions to all Calvinists by John Calvin himself reveals what it is: -quote Each ought to so apply himself to his office *AS-IF NOTHING* were determined about *ANY* part. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 171) When one scrutinized Calvinist behavior - this is in fact what one will constantly see. 1) The doctrine is *SAID* to be what scripture teaches 2) The doctrine strictly stipulates that *EVERYTHING* that comes to pass is determined in *EVERY* part. 3) However - in order to retain a sense of human normalcy - the Calvinist is forced to go about his office just as John Calvin instructs *AS-IF NOTHING* is determined in *ANY* part. 4) This is what you will observe. The Calvinist will consistently treat his own doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE - in order to retain a sense of human normalcy. 5) In doing so - the Calvinist automatically treats what scripture teaches him *AS-IF* it is FALSE QUESTION: Where does the scripture instruct the believer - to treat scripture *AS-IF* what it teaches is FALSE? CONCLUSION: One of the Calvinist's most grandiose claims - is that his doctrine (divine determinism) is what scripture specifically teaches. Divine Determinism is *THE MOST SACRED* of all that scripture teaches him. Yet he lives *AS-IF* what scripture teaches him is FALSE Thus his own behavior betrays his relationship with scripture.
I just had an analogy come to mind as Leighton mentioned God “Not having to play both sides of the chessboard to ensure His own victory.” A grandmaster chess player is so skilled and confident that even when he plays against the most crafty opponents he allows his young, inexperienced, and beloved grandson to make every other move on his turn. And, to the amazement of all watching, in the face of a humiliated opponent the grandmaster wins yet again. All the while his grandson is learning from him, but most importantly, they are becoming very, very close to one another. This view seems to demonstrate an even more sovereign and loving character. Also, it makes a “public display” of the humiliation of an opponent that have lied about the grandmaster’s sovereignty!
Determinism, as taught by Calvinist, teaches that God is a monster. God hates sin but creates sinners to remain in their sin. Their God creates people that can not turn to God, yet this same God sends them to Hell. SAD!
Do CALVANIST have a different God? Do they preach a different Jesus? Another gospel? Please be careful dear friend, because most Arminians and Calvinist will still call each other brothers.
According to Calvinism: your prayers, fasting, evangelism, and apologetics don't make a single difference in somebody coming to Christ. All that matters is if you are one of the lucky few that God wanted to save. That's it.
Actually, though I am not a settled Calvinist, it is my belief that your first statement is absolutely true, and I'm not sure the second one isn't true, either. But at least in your first statement, at least in my understanding, none of that makes a difference, because it is God that must draw us to him. Prayers, fasting, and evangelism, much like apostolic miracles such as healing ... the purpose of all these things is NOT for our glory, or for our credit, but for God's glory. We do these things because God COMMANDS us to do these things, in the Great Commission, in his commandments, etc. - NOT because they may or may not be effective in "winning" or "converting" anyone to Christianity. God does the work - salvation is through faith alone - not from our works, nor from the works of anyone trying to evangelize.
@gregorylatta8159 Was his name Manny or alethia . I get that several times a week from several different ones, Gregory. That and pelagian, semi pelagian, self determiner, freewiller, etc.. they just can't contain their hatred it seems . They like to tell me what I believe and why i believe it and how it's because I'm such a terrible person that is a child of satan . Lol
@gregorylatta8159 It doesn't just sound like it, my friend. The describe the desires of GOD to be that of satan's as far as desiring people to burn in the lake of fire for eternity with no choice to do otherwise when we see plainly , e okicitly in scripture that GOD desires all to be saved and that none should perish. 1 John 2 : 2 tells us that CHRIST is the propitiation for our sins and not only ours but for the sins of the whole world . Hebrews 2 : 9 says that CHRIST tasted death for every man. Titus 2 : 11 says that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men and John 12 : 32 tells us it's because CHRIST has drawn all men unto HIMSELF. And there are many, many more full atonement passages, but the stipulation is that one must believe .
I love listening to Leighton Flowers and Frank Turek discuss this. However, I lean. toward the Calvinistic side because of my own experience of when I was born again. I was a progressive Christian and was dead set against conservative Christianity. I thought I was practicing historical Christianity (as Alisa Childers calls it) with just a few tweaks but I was dead wrong. They talk about in this video God playing chess. I felt he was playing chess with me and checkmated me. I could not understand what was happening to me at the time. I think with people like me or Jay Warner Wallace or Greg Koukl I think our experience leads us to Calvinism but I still love apologetics. With that being said I do appreciate all the work Leighton does on this channel and I plan to read his Provisionism book because I am open to changing my mind. One point about Calvinists appealing to mystery....I think the likes of Sproul, Macarthur and Alistair Begg appeal to mystery because Paul does in Romans 11:33 "33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"
There is no Gospel under Calvinism. If you are of the elect than you were never in danger of going to hell. If you are not of the elect you never had a Savior, and there is no good news. Just believe the Gospel we read in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
What was meant for you, is meant for everyone, no one excluded, the only reason people will not inherit salvation is their own choice to resist His Spirit, or going back to a godless lifestyle, yes you can loose your salvation.
i am glad that you saw the error in progressive Christianity. I hope that you keep on seeking for truth because the basis for Calvinism is also in error which is discussed here. With Calvinism there is NO free will. God is ALWAYS sovereign and man has no ability whatsoever to respond freely but only the way that God sovereignly decrees each person will ie. accept or reject . Many people have had to be de-programmed after being indoctrinated into it.
Every theologian appeals to mystery somewhere along the way. (If they don't, then it means they understand all of God.) There are really only 2 questions here: - where do they appeal to mystery? - are there passages in the Bible that make the same appeal to mystery? - - - - - Arminians: God is sovereign, but man is still free. We don't know how that works. It's a mystery. Provisionists: God is so sovereign, He's able to use man's free will to accomplish His will. We don't know how that works. It's a mystery. Calvinists: God is sovereign, and man cannot resist His will. Yet man is still culpable. We don't know how that works. It's a mystery. (Rom 9)
The free will defense for the problem of evil cannot be used by the Calvinist and leaves their position wide open to various criticism concerning the character of God as the ultimate cause of evil. It is hard to imagine how Calvinists can defend God as being maximally good when their perspective of God is not an all-loving one. It is even more incomprehensive how a God who for the sake of his His own glory, specifically creates and determines certain people to be unable to accept the gospel, and then punishes them in hell eternally for not being able to do, can somehow be considered to be Love itself, as the Bible defines it. The removal of free will not only undermines moral responsibility, it also destroys what love is all about. Love that is not free is not love, it is just programming, but apparently the love potion type of love can somehow actually be considered genuine love in Calvinism. How does one remove the freedom to choose from the concept of love itself? This is just completely unthinkable.
@@quinnpeterson2716 Neither did the babylonians, the persians, or the romans for that matter, intended or desired to be God's instrument of judgement, simply because they did not know that they were doing God's will, and were not servants of God.That does not imply that God forced them to be as such or gave them the desire to. Even we as humans can use somebody apart from their knowledge without needing to force them to, much more God. There is nothing in that verse that implies determinism and you are eisegeting.
Jeremiah 19:5 Kind of makes it quite clear from my perspective. "They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!" NLT.... Seems to be 100% proof that humanity does things that never crossed God's mind to command man to do. So they where doing things completely outside of God's choice.
Oh my goodness, I had to look that up and read the chapter, that is amazing. Those people were doing things that never even entered into God's mind to command. You are right that does make it quite clear.
I love to be there on the debate of James White and Dr. Leighton Flowers if only I am in the US but I'm in the other parts of the world particularly in the Philippines.
The simple reason those who choose to follow and adopt personally Calvinist beliefs, is because they choose to deny who they know who God is . God gave us all the choice , as He gave Adam and Eve the choice to accept or reject who He was by their very actions. And God warns us about twisting/ interrupting His word according to our own ideologies.
Need help. What are the best proofs (quotes, articles etc. from leading calvinists) that show determinism is the cornerstone of Calvinism? I know one pastor denying God determines every choices and accusing me of misrepresenting his Calvinism.
I think Calvinists have a lot of nuances. I’ve heard from their own mouths - “I’m a 3 point Calvinist” or “I’m a 4 or 5 point Calvinist.” It really depends on the person. There’s no real consistency. I had a pastor refuse to discuss things when asked questions by different people at a Bible study. He’d say - well, I don’t really want to go there.
As an ex-Calvinist myself I think the main reason for choosing it, is that it’s way more scary to think that you have responsibility for choices you make. I think at its heart it’s a theology that gives you assurance of salvation, because God chose you and therefore can’t unchoose you.
My question is why would God give us free will if he didn't want us to choose salvation? Or if the game is rigged why even let the "unchosen" even live? Another question I have is if salvation is only for the chosen what was the point of the crucifixion?
Frank: "I think that calvinists don't take God's sovereignty enough. Why? Because I think that God is so soverign that He can get His will done through our free will." Yes!! Exactly! Our free will doesn't tany any sovereignty or power away from God. He gave us that free will!
The thought came across my mind the other day. If God is determining everything than why is the world going to be destroyed and there will be a new heavens and a new earth?
I have a question comprised of several questions. Jesus Christ's crucifixion, was it predestined? What did determine it if so predestined? What made the outcome certain? Or was Jesus Christ’s crucifixion was something God foresaw in the future that would happen and hence foretold about?
Thank you! Thank you! There are sooooo many passages of Scripture that do not support Calvinism’s predestination. Predestination in the Bible is corporate, not individualistic. God chose the “nation” of Israel, and has effected His will for the Nation of Israel through individuals who were willing to answer God’s calling. Yes, God chooses individuals to carry out His will within a corporate body of people/nations, but if an individual refuses or fails, God can raise up the rocks to accomplish His will. God’s Holy Spirit will not tarry forever with a person who is disobedient or refuses His call.
I can’t continue Bible study with my sister-in-law because her view through the lens of Calvinism, John 3:16 doesn’t mean all the world, impacts every other aspect of her worldview. It makes zero sense.
Yes, the amount of resolve /energy/ and mind olympics to sit and process with subscribed reformers / calvinists in a Bible study setting would even wear out the 12 disciples.
We have free will to choose but God knows who will choose Him and who won’t. Thus, a Calvinistic view on sovereignty is not contradictory to free will. Only God can open our hearts to know him but we still freely choose. We evangelize because we don’t know what God already knows. It’s his ordained mechanism. No man can ever take credit for endeavoring towards his salvation. Mystery? Indeed. Just like so many other mysteries about God that we accept due to our admitted inability to be all knowing.
Dr. Flowers, I am a pastor and understand this question Im going to ask, but its in regard to another argument made in a long past video and thought i’d ask here for the help of others. Maybe you could address this point in a video. Do you need grace so you can approach the throne of God, or are you given grace once you approach the throne? This addresses the U. Thanks!
Think about the woman caught in the act of adultery. How did Jesus respond to her? He knows our hearts. James 4:6 - But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
When the kids are arguing over an idea that can not be resolved, I look to the one that brought the issue up and ask why. The Calvinists are the ones that raised this issue of contention so it behooves them to give in to make the peace.
I view God's sovereignty as a chess game as you mentioned, which is the first time I've heard someone use the same example. But God inhabits all of eternity. So He inhabits the past, present... and future. So He is already in the future, which means He knows every move on the chess board that will be made and He has made his moves already in His soveriegn plan to bring about His will. How do you fool or beat someone who's already living in the future and knows every little move you will make since eternity past? So God doesn't need to choose for us. He has already in the future responded based on the moves we are now making in the present. It's impossible for a chess player with that capability to not win. And God wins.... plain and simple. God living in the future is one of the things that I think MOST people miss, not just Calvinists. If God inhabits eternity past present and future, then He has everything predetermined based on our free choices ahead of time. He didn't determine our choices for us. He predetermined "His" choices on the chess board based on the moves He knew we would make and haven't even made yet. That's what I believe the Bible teaches explaining the incomprehensible sovereignty of God to the best of my very limited ability.
Dynamic omniscience and how is a loving God sovereign . Jesus said only the Father knows the day /hour of return . The sovereign attribute of reformed calvinism deity is no different than Gnostics , many atheists compatibilism, and Islam’s Allah. God is a living and active powerful presence and personhood of Father, Son, and Spirit. God grieves, displays emotion , has messengers, a divine council which demonstrates He is relational , and most of all , He is love . Gods compelling relational attributes are the wellspring of life appeal/argument that makes The Most High relatable and invaluably worthwhile to know.
Why would a person choose Calvinism? I can answer with reference to cases I know. You would choose the Calvinist interpretation, even if both are available, because you're insecure, and having a simple, strict, deterministic God would mean you no longer have to have anxiety about the future, or that you have a stable and reliable "father" that you lacked in your growing up years. Or you would choose the Calvinist interpretation because you are tired of moral responsibility, and find it restful to think you don't have to bear it. Or you would choose it because somebody you admire taught it to you, and you don't want to think he was wrong. But you could find many reasons to refuse the free will view, even though it fits the context of Scripture much, much better than the alternative. And your whole hermeneutic, including your view of salvation, morality, eschatology and interpretation will suffer because of it.
God can take bad situations and use them to further His will. That doesn't mean He created the bad situation. God can take bad people and use them further His will. That doesn't mean He made them bad.
I always thought it was interesting that a person could think that they do not have the ability to believe that Jesus died on a cross and rose again three days later. Yet people all over the world believe in things that are crazier than that.
Take Joseph. I heard Jeff speak on this to prove his doctrine. How he says see God said it was not because of the brothers that Joseph landed in Egypt as a means to say, "See God made his brothers want to kill and then decide to sell him." Well, yes and no. Yes, God is the reason Joseph landed in Egypt, but no God did not make them desire to commit sin. I would mention that God intervened in a way. When He gave Joseph his vision, and when Joseph told his brothers, they became wrought with jealousy. Not because God created them that way but because Joseph told them the vision, and because of the hardness of their heart, they became jealous, which led to them selling Joseph.
In the Old Testament, Isaiah I think but I don’t remember, it says that the pot can turn itself from a bad vessel to a good one, thereby defeating the potter argument from Calvinism void
WOW I find it ironic that non-Calvinists are sitting there saying "Calvinists must view themselves as special", while simultaneously and indirectly saying, that they are just smart enough to know their need for a Savior and are just good and intelligent enough to recognize that it was Jesus of the Bible, (not Muhammed, not Buddha, not Krishna, not Lucifer ((Well maybe in their case, Lucifer)), and not Joseph Smith's version of Jesus) that truly saves I used to like watching Franks Cross Examined, but I just feel unworthy to be in the presence of either of you because you are just so much more intelligent and good than the false convert Calvinist Christians and followers of other religions who were too stoopid to realize they were on the wrong path and are now burning in hell Who has the reason to feel special Leighton and Frank? I find it strange that you solely target true Bible Believing Pastors for their Calvinistic views, instead of focusing on the Pastors where the real danger is (the Hinns, Osteens, Copelands) who are literally leading droves of people to hell and are getting rich while doing so. Makes me question your motives Is it to cause even more division?
"God is so sovereign, that He can get His will done through our free will."
Bravo, well stated! Yes, yes, yes!
Is there any possible universe in which we as humans could have not killed Christ? Is it possible that our savior actually would have never died on a cross for our sins? And if not how are we “free” the very fact that we are not sovereign and God is shows we don’t actually have autonomous free will as God does. Our “free will” is nothing more than me as a parent allowing my 2 year old to run freely in the house..but I’ve limited him from going out the front door and absolutely have limited him from driving down the street or buying plane tickets to fly to another country. He is “free” but there’s levels…and as a teenager I’m sure he won’t feel as “free” the more he realizes how limited he is. We say things like God is sovereign but that again is an admission to the fact that we are not. What does it mean for God to be sovereign? He can do as he pleases..we’re we can do as we please but under the confinements of Gods restrictions. I can heal at will..God can..I can’t know all things..God does..I can’t even do the things God wants me to do lol I literally need his Spirit, I need his life in me. The Bible literally talks about predestined. The Bible talks about knowing man in the mothers womb..the Bible talks about raising a man up for a specific time. Free will is limited and in that regard freedom isn’t really free
This statement is brilliant!
The statement is also unbiblical. I’m more than willing to be shown that it is biblical however.
@@toddstracke9267 why do you think it is unbiblical?
@@ivylagrone8632 because the Bible denies human free will and repeatedly emphasizes that the Lord does whatever He pleases in heaven and on earth and never even hints at God limiting Himself for the sake of human autonomy.
Dr. Flowers, before you came along and explained Provisionism I never felt comfortable aligning with either Arminianism or Calvinism. Both always seemed to fall short of the totality of who God is. So, I just went along thinking I must be a terrible Christian or that I was missing something somewhere. Then, I began watching your videos and it all fell into place for me. I no longer felt like a stranger in a strange land. I've supported your ministry ever since. Thank you.
Same here. Well said. 🙏
nothing more than me as a parent allowing my 2 year old to run freely in the house..but I’ve limited him from going out the front door and absolutely have limited him from driving down the street or buying plane tickets to fly to another country. He is “free” but there’s levels…and as a teenager I’m sure he won’t feel as “free” the more he realizes how limited he is. We say things like God is sovereign but that again is an admission to the fact that we are not. What does it mean for God to be sovereign? He can do as he pleases..we’re we can do as we please but under the confinements of Gods restrictions. I can heal at will..God can..I can’t know all things..God does..I can’t even do the things God wants me to do lol I literally need his Spirit, I need his life in me. The Bible literally talks about predestined. The Bible talks about knowing man in the mothers womb..the Bible talks about raising a man up for a specific time. Free will is limited and in that regard freedom isn’t really free.
I truly want to see what you guys are seeing because I’m absolutely missing it. I hate when people deem us as Calvinist as if we’re “second class citizens” or unworthy of love..this channel and the comments are the reason why I’ll never want to be among this company..the hatred sucks if I’m being honest. A Christian channel that isn’t aimed at sharing the gospel or talking about things that really matter like human trafficking or how to reach the lost..it’s just a bunch of people who hatch many Christian’s for a doctrine that isn’t even primary…it’s just sad..Christian’s times can be spent doing so much more
Freewill has no limitations! That's why we're in this mess! People will soon worship the Antichrist as God. Do you really believe that God allows it or He lets people make their own free choice to worship the devil?
@@SundayVibesmusic a man is sovereign over his house, even though he doesn’t determine all of his wife’s actions.
Calvinists believe God can do anything but be sovereign and choose to give man free will.
Keep listening to Non Calvinists, and eventually the light switch will flip - and your eyes will open and all the verses will fall like dominos - non of them mean what you think in Calvinism. I’ve been there, it will click eventually but you have to stop listening to Calvinists so it stops being hammered into your brain. -- how I was able to get out of it, Ty God!!!
Check out Steve Gregg’s 14 part series called Gods sovereignty and man’s free will. It will help. God bless.
@@Jus4kiks with all due respect yes I agree with you man is “sovereign” over the house but you can’t compare my “sovereignty” over my house to the All Mighty Gods sovereignty. It seems silly the comparison you’re making..I can’t even stop myself from getting sick..or what if the power goes off in my home? What about if a tornado or flood destroys my home. Again I mean no disrespect but this is what I’m talking about. Yes on a basic level of understanding and every day talk I get what you’re saying but logically and biblically the two are nothing alike. You can’t compare anything to God and that is the point..when you try to give human examples of what God is like you’ll always fall short
When my first daughter was born, I was 26. I was standing in the hospital room holding her when she was a few minutes old. My wife was overcome with joy and weeping with delight. My only thought was, “I wonder if she’s been predestined for heaven or for hell?” What should’ve been such a happy and loving moment was robbed from me by my false Calvinist beliefs. That day was the turning point, 11 years ago, and I’ve never looked back. Praise God.
I always appreciate the groundedness Dr. Turek brings to Christian apologetics.
Thank you for defending Gods character. Great show!
Two guys I love listening to and they are having a discussion? Don't tempt me with a good time 😁
Agreed!
Great discussion. I’ve been watching both guys for years. I’ve learned a lot from both their ministries.
Dr Michael Brown in a debate with James White said the same thing Frank said here. that Calvinist don’t take Gods sovereignty enough as to where God has to rig the game to make His will work instead of making it work in spite of our free will
Are both saved?
@@ZelphBones are you referring to Dr Michael Brown and James White? If so then yes. They just defer in how God does the saving, but yes.
I think James White is a presuppositional apologist, which is almost an oxymoron; that style of apologetics places no value on logic and reason.
Yes. And, it's interesting that Satan used that same tactic in the garden of Eden. He basically convinced Eve that God rigged the game and was keeping something great from her!
I talked to a Cavlinist pastor once who said he would consider using a free will argument while doing apologetics, mind blowing.
Yep, 😂😂
Love it!😂
Frank has always been sound on the Christian basics, in my experience, and his critique of Calvinism is also sound. Always great to listen to him and his Jersey accent, especially in conversation with Leighton!
imho, this is one of Turek's big weak points. Well, this, and his difficulty with plainly answering a person that they're going to hell if they don't believe in Jesus Christ to save them from their sins. (there's a video out there)
@@timfoster5043 This was one of his weak points?
@@leonardu6094 Yes. It's hard to think that someone of his caliber hasn't studied Calvinism well, but his comments on why he thinks Calvinism doesn't work are quite shallow. They're a clear indicator that he ought to spend more time checking it out.
@@timfoster5043 it could be the case, but i won't know for sure until you are more specific on the specific reason he cited you think is shallow.
@@leonardu6094 I don't remember them (plural) off the top of my head. I'll have to go back through the video and check it out.
God is so sovereign, that us having a free will doesn't in any way effect him.
perfection
Then why isn't it mentioned in the gospel?
Glad to see Frank is turning against Calvinism because he never believed it but now that he sees the horrible things it entails he’s definitely as against it as we are
Long before Calvin with with John Calvin subscribe to what they now call Calvinism long before he subscribe to that the Bible had already subscribe to it but that hit you because Frank Turek knows that we are chosen without him first choosing us and drawing Us near him that's what the Bible says so the Bible makes it clear not everybody's chosen that's why there's even a series called The Chosen that's right because not everybody's chosen but we God knows everything so God knows who would have chose him back who would have believed the gospel and who would not have that's why there's some that are chosen something or not
@@Nicky-hr1qz ?? What?
What specifically, are the horrible things it entails?
Calvinists may or not be poor but one thing is certain: they are far removed from humble.
@@Rileyed God knew us when we were in our mother's womb also the other thing is is it God chose us we cannot go to God's without him choosing us the Bible makes it clear us on her own do not go to God on her own because we love our sin God has to choose us he draws Us near him anybody who gets saved that includes atheist and others murderers Etc when they get saved it's because they were chosen and he knows God knows everything so obviously God knows who was going to choose him back who would never ever accept it the Bible is very clear on the chosen ones that's why they even have a series called The Chosen it's extremely biblical everybody's not chosen with those of us that are born again obviously are you have a problem with that you might want to talk to God cuz God makes the rules and he knows he knows who will choose him back and he knows who will never accept the gospel no matter what we don't get to make the rules God did
Frank is awesome
I love Mr. Turek's comparison of Calvigod to Allah. That is true and it's an elephant in the room, AND it describes some of the shared blunt instrument behaviors between Islamic faith and Calvinists.
And how sweet James white is to them.
Calvinism is influenced by Islamic theology.
The comparison is ignorant and incomplete. It's akin to when atheists try to lump Christianity, Judaism and Islam into "Abrahamic religions". the god of Islam is capricious. The Triune God Yahweh is not. Islam rejects the deity of Christ and the crucifixion and faith alone for salvation; so a "comparison" is weak at best.
Shall we be compared to Muslims and Jews because " hey look! We're all monotheists! "
@@jesuschristsaves9067
You mean by debating them, correcting them.....sharing with them the true Christ and Savior??
Or are only non-Muslims to be evangelized??
@@josephgarrett3075
No one mentioned anything about evangelism. But since you’ve introduced the topic. We see how glorified white is by the Muslim community. Where are the ex-Muslims he’s lead to the lord? ZERO.
Christian prince, Hatun Tash, David Wood, Jay Smith, Sam Shamoun etc.. have testimonials from ex-Muslims, and how their ministry has lead them to Jesus Christ. Yet, they are hated by the Muslim community. With white, it’s the opposite.
The correct gospel? What Calvinism? No sir. Calvinism is not the “true” gospel.
love Frank
he speaks plainly and on my level
I read your book Frank, years ago, turned me around. Thanks, Frank
My friend who is a Calvinist and professional apologist told the audience, and I quote, "God is responsible for evil, but God is not to blame for evil" 🤦♂️
That is what many Calvinist state. That God causes/determines all things, but yet, since He is God, He is somehow not responsible for them in some mysterious way. The Bible is very clear. God is good. We need to keep that in our minds, hearts, and souls. That God really is GOOD.
Make that make sense.
@ Haha the emcee literally said "Wow that makes my mind crazy"
The Calvinists view is in complete conflict and contradiction with scripture. James 1 is clear
"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God” [for temptation does not originate from God, but from our own flaws]; for God cannot be tempted by [what is] evil, and He Himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away, enticed and baited [to commit sin] by his own [worldly] desire (lust, passion)."
@@Yoyoprojon I have actually seen Calvinists explain "No we don't say God tempts us to evil, God MAKES us do evil, so it's not contradicting the Bible".
I'm like, bro that's worse... You do get how that's worse right? 🤦♂️
Calvinists have chosen freely to give more loyalty to their reformed theology camp and their 'doctrines of grace', than loyalty to the Lord.
I've always said they are more interested in converting people to Calvinism, than they are to Christ. Does it make sense the world had to wait 15 centuries after Christ to get clarity on the doctrine of salvation? Of course, NOT.
I'm sorry but that is rediculous
Boom
Psalm 145:9
" The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."
Here is a thought I just had. How does one grow more in Christ (sanctification) if he effectually causes our will and actions?
Not resisting the inner work of His Spirit, that aleays remains a choice.
Psalm 143:7 - 12
Right. Cal makes no sense
❤ Your calmly, kindly, clearly presented perspective is Spot On 💪 Thank you so very much!
I came across this channel about a week ago. Excellent channel, Thanks for discussing these subjects, and this one in particular.
Has anyone ever met someone who studied the Bible and came to believe that it teaches Calvinism but they also came to realize they unfortunately were not one of the pre-chosen elect? In other words, I have never met a Calvinist who did not think they were one of the elect.
They say they do not have free will, yet they freely choose to believe that they are “chosen”. That does not make sense.
They also believe they do not have to go out to the ends of the earth and tell everyone about hat Christ did for them.
Of course not. You have to be taught it.
No, but I've run into a lot of them who were confused and worried that they weren't chosen. Illogical, right? Right.
Sadly, I have heard people use the Calvinist view as an excuse to not believe. They blame God, who they don't believe in, for their rebellion against Him. SMH
@@janwilson6763 This is why I think the doctrine came from Satan. Is he not the accuser constantly condemning but never taking responsibility for his own actions? Satan to God: "God you created me to fail so that you would get all of the glory (that Satan himself covets). The whole system was rigged from the beginning." See what I mean?
I didn’t know there was another option back in the day for many years! Now my eyes are open!
In any concept of justice and morality, moral culpability is impossible without free will.
My favorite apologists.God bless you and thank you.
"Stricter or higher calvinism" is just the inevitable end of where all calvinism leads.
Thanks brothers.
We cannot choose to be saved. We can however choose to answer God's call for us to be saved.
Amen!!
Isn’t that a difference without a distinction?
@@chrisbera7952 ???
That's just semantics. You said the same thing two different ways. I'll say it another-we can choose to forfeit the redemption and salvation that Jesus purchased on the cross, or we can choose to allow him to save us. We can choose to be saved.
@LonelyStranger-g5u No. Not at all. Do you have authority over your own Salvation? Of course not. Only God has the authority to save. That's called Grace that God implements his authority to grant us salvation if we choose to come to him.
I've always argued that it takes no real power to make a barbie doll do what you want. But it takes much power to overcome free will of Jackie chan and beat him in a fight.
Us having free will actually reveals just how supremely powerful God is.
I think Bro Turek has hit on a big part of it "easier". HOWEVER, it is likely just the newness of the subject and the peer groups
pressure to learn it. I've always presented that God's sovereignty bestowed us with free will and even with that....His plans are
never thwarted. Nothing is impossible for God!!!
This reminds me of a recent STR podcast where Greg was trying to explain sovereignty to a teen caller. It was really bad. I'm an STR Strategic Partner and love the work that they do, but this is one area where Greg seems to get lost.
I’ve emailed and called STR. The inconsistency Greg continues to subscribe to of reformed calvinism immensely diminishes his ministry
Integrity matters.
Calvinism reformed theology are absurd in basic application of faith.
Amen! Thank you for this video.
I really like both A. W. Tozer's and Tim Stratton's takes on God's sovereignty.
You should have Fr. Josiah Trenham on. He was a student of RC Sproul but now an Eastern Orthodox Pastor.
I really respect Dr. Turek, does a great job debating topics. But to be completely honest, some of his answers rubbed me wrong. I think a thought Calvinists have about the other side is we think too highly of ourselves and that we don't see the seriousness of sin.
I say that to compliment Leighton. You have really grown and understood what the best arguments are and how to present them. Your focus in soteriology has truly blessed others and I thank you my brother! Keep working for the kingdom
Frank hit the nail on the head when he said calvinism promotes the idea of whatever God wills is good. This is exactly what medieval Islamic scholars argued, and even Martin Luther held to a voluntarist view. However, whatever God wills is good MUST be consistent with his nature, otherwise God is a relativist. This is the problem set forth in Plato's Euthyphro's dilemma.
He's strawmanning Calvinism. half of what they said isn't even true of Calvinistic teaching.
I knew there was something wrong with "Calvinism" when a Calvinist I knew said little children should not be allowed to sing the song "Jesus Loves Me", because he said Jesus does not love all children.
Augustine was trying to get children into an Old Covenant relationship with God through water baptism. The term "new covenant" is not found in the man-made confessions of Reformed Covenant Theology, even though it is in the Bible multiple times. This is the rotten fruit produced by confusing the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai, and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the TH-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
As a Calvinist, here to listen to those who disagree with me, so that I can better investigate ways to love others and also what I believe, Mr. Flowers does a good job of being kind to his opponents. Mr. Turek, not so much.
I always love watching him at college campuses. His comments here are very disappointing
I find Frank Turek emminently patient and kind. Perhaps his arguments got to you and you didn’t like it?
Too bad.
@@chrisbera7952 Bingo!
Two of my faves right here. 30+ years ago I remember thinking "What is going to happen when we lose all these great leaders and teachers we have around today?" The answer is simple - the Lord raises up new teachers and leaders as the old ones move on.
God is so sovereign that He can choose not to exercise His sovereignty in every situation. He can choose not to choose.
You betcha he can! He is dynamically just! Nicely done!!
Man has influenced and changed God's mind countless times in the Bible based on repentance and pleading for His wonderful mercy.
Right, I mean who are we praying for, who are we helping to save, God has done everything already, according to them.
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!
A.W. Tozer - " Man's will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." That should be front and center in every Provisionist's minds. You, Dr. Flowers, are ABSOLUTELY correct! THANK YOU!!!
Except the Bible tells us mans will is in boundage
Just coming across this video a year after its airing. I didn't know Frank Turek was not a Calvinist. That's good to hear!
This was a great conversation! I really enjoyed it!
Now, what about PSA?
1:59 I just want to address the elephant in the room. If the Calvinists believe that God is the author of evil, do we even have the same God?
No, in fact I was a little shocked when Frank conceded that the Calvinist's can "make a case." Though Frank admits that their case is interpreted wrong, I would go as far as to say it's not even a case. It's heresy (strong word here), but that's just my opinion.
I have wondered that too, I struggle when I hear our brothers and sisters who are calvinist but yet its not my place to judge a persons heart.
The "Calvigod" looks a lot like "Allah".
@@ingela_injeelaAllah is Satan.
No we don’t
I think part of the problem with Calvinism, is reading theology back into the text, rather than reading theology out of the text. One example is the use of the words "choose", "chose", "chosen", etc. These words have taken on a theological weight beyond what is demanded by scripture. John 6:70-71 is a demonstration of this:
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
Calvinism frequently reads the doctrine of unconditional election into the word "choose" when God is doing the choosing. But here, Jesus chose Judas? So is Jesus referring to a choosing to salvation? No. Jesus is referring to the selection of his disciples.
Well said... That pops into my mind occasionally😂... Just know that we have the other thousand pages of the Bible to back us up! 🤣👍🙏
Jimmy Akin has a really good study in the word, "chosen," in scripture that shows how the word is abused in modern dialogue on this issue, it's well worth the read.
@@JudeMichaelPeterson hey Jude... (See what I did there?)🤣... I know you've heard it a thousand times!! 😍🙏... Thanks very much but I'm not confused at all on the issue!... In fact it's so clear and simple, "that a fool, though he were a wayfaring man from another country, should not err therein" 👍🙏... Pride and overthinking is the problem... In fact I've been through that trial a few times!! 👍 Again! Thank you for your service! You are very kind sir!!! 🙏
@@jimhughes1070 my comment was in agreement with the original comment. I would be wary of fearing overthinking, I've never heard anyone concerned about overthinking who was not themselves under thinking. No offense intended, that's just a phrase I've learned to hate after hearing it many a time from under thinking people in leadership positions.
@@JudeMichaelPeterson that's a good point my friend!! I was trying to think of something considerate to say (I actually know why they do what they do)... I always hated "he's overconfident!!" 🤣🤣🤣... In the case of 2,000 religions built on One book 🤣... That's the definition and "poster boy" of overthinking! 🤣... A single line out of "gone with the wind" could never draw so many " interpretations"... The book is straight forward... Including warnings against gendering "confusion"😭 if one's argument is "based" (that's what the book "says") then you're standing on pretty good ground. Arguing against the plain script,... I would say that is... "not inspired by the author" 🤣(you know the one that created the cause and effect universe) wherever you fall on "so simple that a fool, no he were a wayfaring man, should not err there in"... Thank you for looking out for your fellow man! 🙏🙏👍
The Calvinist motivation for evangelism is the Glory of God. Glorify God and enjoy him forever.
How does it glorify God to preach the Gospel to people who were never destined to believe. To glorify God is to show His glory in this world by what we do and say. There's no glory to God in preaching to those God has already determined to condemn. It's just another eerie idea of Calvinism that makes no sense whatsoever.
How could anyone who believes in hard determinism ever feel guilty for their sins? And how could there even be such a thing as sin if we are doing exactly what God wants us to do? Sin is going against God's will. If hard determinism is true, then when we sin we are going against and doing the will of God at the same exact time. Try to make sense of that.
Good point!
I never thought of that. Great points!
You are too logical for Calvinists
@chrisbera7952 I pity anyone who believes God is the cause for all the wickedness in the world. The devil has really deceived them. Imagine saying, when you do something wrong, God made me do it. How crazy is that?!
*CRITICAL UNDERSTANDING CONCERNING CALVINISM AND SCRIPTURE*
There is a critical weakness which all Calvinists have with scripture.
The following instructions to all Calvinists by John Calvin himself reveals what it is:
-quote
Each ought to so apply himself to his office *AS-IF NOTHING* were determined about *ANY* part. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 171)
When one scrutinized Calvinist behavior - this is in fact what one will constantly see.
1) The doctrine is *SAID* to be what scripture teaches
2) The doctrine strictly stipulates that *EVERYTHING* that comes to pass is determined in *EVERY* part.
3) However - in order to retain a sense of human normalcy - the Calvinist is forced to go about his office just as John Calvin instructs *AS-IF NOTHING* is determined in *ANY* part.
4) This is what you will observe. The Calvinist will consistently treat his own doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE - in order to retain a sense of human normalcy.
5) In doing so - the Calvinist automatically treats what scripture teaches him *AS-IF* it is FALSE
QUESTION:
Where does the scripture instruct the believer - to treat scripture *AS-IF* what it teaches is FALSE?
CONCLUSION:
One of the Calvinist's most grandiose claims - is that his doctrine (divine determinism) is what scripture specifically teaches. Divine Determinism is *THE MOST SACRED* of all that scripture teaches him.
Yet he lives *AS-IF* what scripture teaches him is FALSE
Thus his own behavior betrays his relationship with scripture.
That says it all, they follow a man's teaching and not the scripture
I just had an analogy come to mind as Leighton mentioned God “Not having to play both sides of the chessboard to ensure His own victory.”
A grandmaster chess player is so skilled and confident that even when he plays against the most crafty opponents he allows his young, inexperienced, and beloved grandson to make every other move on his turn. And, to the amazement of all watching, in the face of a humiliated opponent the grandmaster wins yet again. All the while his grandson is learning from him, but most importantly, they are becoming very, very close to one another.
This view seems to demonstrate an even more sovereign and loving character. Also, it makes a “public display” of the humiliation of an opponent that have lied about the grandmaster’s sovereignty!
This is good stuff
Determinism, as taught by Calvinist, teaches that God is a monster. God hates sin but creates sinners to remain in their sin. Their God creates people that can not turn to God, yet this same God sends them to Hell. SAD!
Do CALVANIST have a different God?
Do they preach a different Jesus?
Another gospel?
Please be careful dear friend, because most Arminians and Calvinist will still call each other brothers.
What is the best book you recommend as a critique of Calvinism?
The Holy Bible. LOL, just kidding.
lol
The Bible.
Very good. Thank you!
According to Calvinism: your prayers, fasting, evangelism, and apologetics don't make a single difference in somebody coming to Christ. All that matters is if you are one of the lucky few that God wanted to save. That's it.
Actually, though I am not a settled Calvinist, it is my belief that your first statement is absolutely true, and I'm not sure the second one isn't true, either. But at least in your first statement, at least in my understanding, none of that makes a difference, because it is God that must draw us to him.
Prayers, fasting, and evangelism, much like apostolic miracles such as healing ... the purpose of all these things is NOT for our glory, or for our credit, but for God's glory. We do these things because God COMMANDS us to do these things, in the Great Commission, in his commandments, etc. - NOT because they may or may not be effective in "winning" or "converting" anyone to Christianity. God does the work - salvation is through faith alone - not from our works, nor from the works of anyone trying to evangelize.
And if your theology is sufficiently different you're going to hell, and all they have to do is stand there and tell you so.
Calvinists have no true gospel/good news. They have a nightmare doctrine.
Could you explain the free will of Esau and Jacob? Thank you
Calvinism is counterintuitive!!!
As well as counterscriptural .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 🙏 A Calvinist just called me unsaved because I disagree with him???
@gregorylatta8159 Was his name Manny or alethia . I get that several times a week from several different ones, Gregory. That and pelagian, semi pelagian, self determiner, freewiller, etc.. they just can't contain their hatred it seems . They like to tell me what I believe and why i believe it and how it's because I'm such a terrible person that is a child of satan . Lol
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 That is because they believe God is the author of evil. Who does that sound like??? Hint 😈
@gregorylatta8159 It doesn't just sound like it, my friend. The describe the desires of GOD to be that of satan's as far as desiring people to burn in the lake of fire for eternity with no choice to do otherwise when we see plainly , e okicitly in scripture that GOD desires all to be saved and that none should perish. 1 John 2 : 2 tells us that CHRIST is the propitiation for our sins and not only ours but for the sins of the whole world . Hebrews 2 : 9 says that CHRIST tasted death for every man. Titus 2 : 11 says that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men and John 12 : 32 tells us it's because CHRIST has drawn all men unto HIMSELF. And there are many, many more full atonement passages, but the stipulation is that one must believe .
2 of my favorite people!
*_God Bless_* your work online helping God's children.
I love listening to Leighton Flowers and Frank Turek discuss this. However, I lean. toward the Calvinistic side because of my own experience of when I was born again. I was a progressive Christian and was dead set against conservative Christianity. I thought I was practicing historical Christianity (as Alisa Childers calls it) with just a few tweaks but I was dead wrong. They talk about in this video God playing chess. I felt he was playing chess with me and checkmated me. I could not understand what was happening to me at the time. I think with people like me or Jay Warner Wallace or Greg Koukl I think our experience leads us to Calvinism but I still love apologetics.
With that being said I do appreciate all the work Leighton does on this channel and I plan to read his Provisionism book because I am open to changing my mind.
One point about Calvinists appealing to mystery....I think the likes of Sproul, Macarthur and Alistair Begg appeal to mystery because Paul does in Romans 11:33
"33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"
There is no Gospel under Calvinism.
If you are of the elect than you were never in danger of going to hell.
If you are not of the elect you never had a Savior, and there is no good news.
Just believe the Gospel we read in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
What was meant for you, is meant for everyone, no one excluded, the only reason people will not inherit salvation is their own choice to resist His Spirit, or going back to a godless lifestyle, yes you can loose your salvation.
@@glennishammont7414
The Lord Jesus says in John 6:47,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believes on Me HATH everlasting life.
i am glad that you saw the error in progressive Christianity. I hope that you keep on seeking for truth because the
basis for Calvinism is also in error which is discussed here. With Calvinism there is NO free will. God is ALWAYS sovereign and man has no ability whatsoever to respond freely but only the way that God sovereignly decrees each person will ie. accept or reject . Many people have had to be de-programmed after being indoctrinated into it.
Every theologian appeals to mystery somewhere along the way. (If they don't, then it means they understand all of God.)
There are really only 2 questions here:
- where do they appeal to mystery?
- are there passages in the Bible that make the same appeal to mystery?
- - - - -
Arminians: God is sovereign, but man is still free. We don't know how that works. It's a mystery.
Provisionists: God is so sovereign, He's able to use man's free will to accomplish His will. We don't know how that works. It's a mystery.
Calvinists: God is sovereign, and man cannot resist His will. Yet man is still culpable. We don't know how that works. It's a mystery. (Rom 9)
Trent Horn against James White is one of the best debates on this topic.
The free will defense for the problem of evil cannot be used by the Calvinist and leaves their position wide open to various criticism concerning the character of God as the ultimate cause of evil. It is hard to imagine how Calvinists can defend God as being maximally good when their perspective of God is not an all-loving one. It is even more incomprehensive how a God who for the sake of his His own glory, specifically creates and determines certain people to be unable to accept the gospel, and then punishes them in hell eternally for not being able to do, can somehow be considered to be Love itself, as the Bible defines it.
The removal of free will not only undermines moral responsibility, it also destroys what love is all about. Love that is not free is not love, it is just programming, but apparently the love potion type of love can somehow actually be considered genuine love in Calvinism. How does one remove the freedom to choose from the concept of love itself? This is just completely unthinkable.
God used lying spirits & wicked spirits to bring about his judgment. He also used holy spirits to do the same. Where do we go from here?
@@JesusPPK If evil already exists in this world, and God permits it to happen as a form of his judgement, what is wrong with that?
Isaiah 10 literally says that God used them as the rod of his indignation.. “though they did not intend and their heart did not so desire.” Lol.
@@quinnpeterson2716 Neither did the babylonians, the persians, or the romans for that matter, intended or desired to be God's instrument of judgement, simply because they did not know that they were doing God's will, and were not servants of God.That does not imply that God forced them to be as such or gave them the desire to. Even we as humans can use somebody apart from their knowledge without needing to force them to, much more God.
There is nothing in that verse that implies determinism and you are eisegeting.
Jeremiah 19:5 Kind of makes it quite clear from my perspective. "They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!" NLT.... Seems to be 100% proof that humanity does things that never crossed God's mind to command man to do. So they where doing things completely outside of God's choice.
Oh my goodness, I had to look that up and read the chapter, that is amazing. Those people were doing things that never even entered into God's mind to command. You are right that does make it quite clear.
Amen!!! Scripture speaks for itself.
What does Frank mean when he says that we are "chosen but free"?
I love to be there on the debate of James White and Dr. Leighton Flowers if only I am in the US but I'm in the other parts of the world particularly in the Philippines.
The simple reason those who choose to follow and adopt personally Calvinist beliefs, is because they choose to deny who they know who God is . God gave us all the choice , as He gave Adam and Eve the choice to accept or reject who He was by their very actions.
And God warns us about twisting/ interrupting His word according to our own ideologies.
I told a Calvinist pastor that he chose to be a Calvinist, and God predetermined me to reject it. We can both be right. 😂
😅
Wow great conversation. These are essentially all of the thoughts I have been having about Calvinism, which I'm beginning to think is heresy.
Heresy is a word that should be reserved for something like non-trinitarianism. They're wrong, that's enough.
Need help. What are the best proofs (quotes, articles etc. from leading calvinists) that show determinism is the cornerstone of Calvinism? I know one pastor denying God determines every choices and accusing me of misrepresenting his Calvinism.
I think Calvinists have a lot of nuances. I’ve heard from their own mouths - “I’m a 3 point Calvinist” or “I’m a 4 or 5 point Calvinist.” It really depends on the person. There’s no real consistency. I had a pastor refuse to discuss things when asked questions by different people at a Bible study. He’d say - well, I don’t really want to go there.
non calvinist thinking..., nice to meet you ! I knew something was off and I'm beginning to understand why
When 2 of your favorite apologists collab on a video. 👍
As an ex-Calvinist myself I think the main reason for choosing it, is that it’s way more scary to think that you have responsibility for choices you make. I think at its heart it’s a theology that gives you assurance of salvation, because God chose you and therefore can’t unchoose you.
Calvinism is another gospel.
Mark and avoid.
True, but I would specify that gospel means “good news”, Calvinism is bad news.
@@BrandanironGreat and important clarification. Thank you!
@@Brandaniron excellent
My question is why would God give us free will if he didn't want us to choose salvation? Or if the game is rigged why even let the "unchosen" even live? Another question I have is if salvation is only for the chosen what was the point of the crucifixion?
Frank: "I think that calvinists don't take God's sovereignty enough. Why? Because I think that God is so soverign that He can get His will done through our free will."
Yes!! Exactly! Our free will doesn't tany any sovereignty or power away from God. He gave us that free will!
What is Geisler's answer to the question he asked Gershner?
The thought came across my mind the other day. If God is determining everything than why is the world going to be destroyed and there will be a new heavens and a new earth?
The reason many choose to be Calvinists is because of their charismatic leaders
I have a question comprised of several questions. Jesus Christ's crucifixion, was it predestined? What did determine it if so predestined? What made the outcome certain? Or was Jesus Christ’s crucifixion was something God foresaw in the future that would happen and hence foretold about?
The Calvinist answer to theodicy/problem of evil/Epicurean paradox is to deflect. That's their only recourse is purely dodging it.
Thank you! Thank you! There are sooooo many passages of Scripture that do not support Calvinism’s predestination. Predestination in the Bible is corporate, not individualistic. God chose the “nation” of Israel, and has effected His will for the Nation of Israel through individuals who were willing to answer God’s calling. Yes, God chooses individuals to carry out His will within a corporate body of people/nations, but if an individual refuses or fails, God can raise up the rocks to accomplish His will. God’s Holy Spirit will not tarry forever with a person who is disobedient or refuses His call.
I once heard "God can use what he did not choose".
God can work with/ through our choices.
I can’t continue Bible study with my sister-in-law because her view through the lens of Calvinism, John 3:16 doesn’t mean all the world, impacts every other aspect of her worldview. It makes zero sense.
Yes, the amount of resolve /energy/ and mind olympics to sit and process with subscribed reformers / calvinists in a Bible study setting would even wear out the 12 disciples.
What is the Gospel? How does one come to be a Christian biblically speaking? Would love to hear your thoughts..
We have free will to choose but God knows who will choose Him and who won’t. Thus, a Calvinistic view on sovereignty is not contradictory to free will. Only God can open our hearts to know him but we still freely choose. We evangelize because we don’t know what God already knows. It’s his ordained mechanism. No man can ever take credit for endeavoring towards his salvation. Mystery? Indeed. Just like so many other mysteries about God that we accept due to our admitted inability to be all knowing.
Dr. Flowers, I am a pastor and understand this question Im going to ask, but its in regard to another argument made in a long past video and thought i’d ask here for the help of others. Maybe you could address this point in a video.
Do you need grace so you can approach the throne of God, or are you given grace once you approach the throne?
This addresses the U.
Thanks!
You can call me your pastor, I will answer this question as a pastor to pastors.
You need grace to approach the throne of God. There. You are welcome.
Think about the woman caught in the act of adultery. How did Jesus respond to her? He knows our hearts.
James 4:6 - But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
“It is not according to the man who wills…”
How to mischaracterize Cavinists and cause dissention in the body of Christ 101. Bravo.
When the kids are arguing over an idea that can not be resolved, I look to the one that brought the issue up and ask why. The Calvinists are the ones that raised this issue of contention so it behooves them to give in to make the peace.
Yes say it like it is. Calvin-ism has a different God.
I tend to think this as well
I view God's sovereignty as a chess game as you mentioned, which is the first time I've heard someone use the same example. But God inhabits all of eternity. So He inhabits the past, present... and future. So He is already in the future, which means He knows every move on the chess board that will be made and He has made his moves already in His soveriegn plan to bring about His will. How do you fool or beat someone who's already living in the future and knows every little move you will make since eternity past? So God doesn't need to choose for us. He has already in the future responded based on the moves we are now making in the present. It's impossible for a chess player with that capability to not win. And God wins.... plain and simple. God living in the future is one of the things that I think MOST people miss, not just Calvinists. If God inhabits eternity past present and future, then He has everything predetermined based on our free choices ahead of time. He didn't determine our choices for us. He predetermined "His" choices on the chess board based on the moves He knew we would make and haven't even made yet. That's what I believe the Bible teaches explaining the incomprehensible sovereignty of God to the best of my very limited ability.
Dynamic omniscience and how is a loving God sovereign . Jesus said only the Father knows the day /hour of return .
The sovereign attribute of reformed calvinism deity is no different than Gnostics , many atheists compatibilism, and Islam’s Allah.
God is a living and active powerful presence and personhood of Father, Son, and Spirit.
God grieves, displays emotion , has messengers, a divine council which demonstrates He is relational , and most of all , He is love .
Gods compelling relational attributes are the wellspring of life appeal/argument that makes The Most High relatable and invaluably worthwhile to know.
Why would a person choose Calvinism? I can answer with reference to cases I know. You would choose the Calvinist interpretation, even if both are available, because you're insecure, and having a simple, strict, deterministic God would mean you no longer have to have anxiety about the future, or that you have a stable and reliable "father" that you lacked in your growing up years. Or you would choose the Calvinist interpretation because you are tired of moral responsibility, and find it restful to think you don't have to bear it. Or you would choose it because somebody you admire taught it to you, and you don't want to think he was wrong. But you could find many reasons to refuse the free will view, even though it fits the context of Scripture much, much better than the alternative. And your whole hermeneutic, including your view of salvation, morality, eschatology and interpretation will suffer because of it.
God can take bad situations and use them to further His will. That doesn't mean He created the bad situation. God can take bad people and use them further His will. That doesn't mean He made them bad.
Facts!
I always thought it was interesting that a person could think that they do not have the ability to believe that Jesus died on a cross and rose again three days later. Yet people all over the world believe in things that are crazier than that.
Great points fellas
Take Joseph. I heard Jeff speak on this to prove his doctrine.
How he says see God said it was not because of the brothers that Joseph landed in Egypt as a means to say, "See God made his brothers want to kill and then decide to sell him."
Well, yes and no.
Yes, God is the reason Joseph landed in Egypt, but no God did not make them desire to commit sin.
I would mention that God intervened in a way. When He gave Joseph his vision, and when Joseph told his brothers, they became wrought with jealousy. Not because God created them that way but because Joseph told them the vision, and because of the hardness of their heart, they became jealous, which led to them selling Joseph.
In the Old Testament, Isaiah I think but I don’t remember, it says that the pot can turn itself from a bad vessel to a good one, thereby defeating the potter argument from Calvinism void
What a great discussion. I too often think that the god of Calvinism is very much like Allah "it is written"
WOW
I find it ironic that non-Calvinists are sitting there saying "Calvinists must view themselves as special", while simultaneously and indirectly saying, that they are just smart enough to know their need for a Savior and are just good and intelligent enough to recognize that it was Jesus of the Bible, (not Muhammed, not Buddha, not Krishna, not Lucifer ((Well maybe in their case, Lucifer)), and not Joseph Smith's version of Jesus) that truly saves
I used to like watching Franks Cross Examined, but I just feel unworthy to be in the presence of either of you because you are just so much more intelligent and good than the false convert Calvinist Christians and followers of other religions who were too stoopid to realize they were on the wrong path and are now burning in hell
Who has the reason to feel special Leighton and Frank?
I find it strange that you solely target true Bible Believing Pastors for their Calvinistic views, instead of focusing on the Pastors where the real danger is (the Hinns, Osteens, Copelands) who are literally leading droves of people to hell and are getting rich while doing so.
Makes me question your motives
Is it to cause even more division?