Huge thanks again to Alyssa for braving the cold with me and sitting in a frozen car for a silly TH-cam video! The results are not what I would have expected at all. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts as I’m definitely not an HVAC expert. One note: at the end Alyssa mentions taking the PTC car out of Auto - she did this around the 30 minute mark - something to keep in mind.
Not related to the cold soak test but during normal everyday heater usage. Alyssa mentioned that’s she noticed the car has to be on high to feel the heat. I’m experiencing the same thing with my 2022 model 3 with heat pump. After researching on forums, I discovered that for the heat to work without being on high you have to turn on both the face and leg vent at the same time. Ever since I tried that, I can have the heat on 72 and still feel heat. Not a problem with your car, just something Tesla probably changed with the recent updates. Perhaps we can persuade Kyle to test if this is a software bug, or if there is a reason Tesla doesn’t activate heat at less than 81 degrees until both leg and face vents are selected.
I'm curious if you guys tracked the energy usage over the time you were testing? A comparison between the two cars would be interesting to show how much more efficient a heat pump is compared to resistive heating in exactly the same conditions.
PTC used roughly 8kWh Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh Not totally accurate measurements but it’s as close as we can calculate - heat pump definitely more efficient
@@nonconsensualopinion Yes, but for some people is also or more important how fast you can get cabin warmed up. As in my country we get -15, -20C as well, I care more about instant heat then short term spike in consumption.
One thing that makes a HUGE difference, is whether it's drawing in outside air, or, whether it's recirculating the air inside the car. A heating element has a certain temperature rise, so, if the intake air is too cold, you may never reach setpoint, because the wattage of the heater Vs. CFM of airflow will not allow discharge heat to ever become that hot. When recirculating, the temperature will rise, because the heating element is adding its temperature rise to the warmer air from the interior of the vehicle. If the heater is in recirculating mode, turning up the fans is the right thing to do, because the more thermal load on a PTC heater, the more wattage it will draw.(until rated maximum) If using fresh air intake, turning up the fans reduces temperature rise, and the car will never get warm. Defrost mode uses fresh air, to maintain lowest possible humidity. Again, it may be a mistake, to run the fans too fast in defrost mode.
I wish they'd have mentioned how much battery capacity was used for the test in the two cars. That would be valuable info for estimating range on cold days and whether the HVAC used less power than the resistive heater.
PTC used roughly 8kWh Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh Not totally accurate measurements but it’s as close as we can calculate - heat pump definitely more efficient
@@Teknomanslade2 Thanks for the info, it's interesting they're not that much different as far as the efficiency. But I suppose in really cold temps with the heat pump every little bit of extra battery capacity helps.
@@td_kdname5197 yea especially if you arent plugging in your car frequently (people who live in apts, condos, etc. compared to a house) not to mention the sentry mode if that is on. But the initial heat pumps did have issue in the colder climates but I think that was both software and hardware issue that has supposedly been fixed.
And using a heat pump no less. Word is heat pumps stop working much at all at 0. -20, and I'm surprised they got any heat at all. Tesla is truly amazing at engineering lets hope they get the home heat pump tech out there so we can buy it, save lots of money on home heating costs.
Something isn't right, my 2020 Model 3 with PTC heaters starts blowing actual hot air within 30 seconds of a completely cold soaked start even in below zero (F) temperatures on auto. I took mine out just a couple days ago with barely 5 minutes of preconditioning in -10F weather and it was gloves off warm and comfortable the whole time. Usually on high/defrost I get the notification saying the cabin has reached temperature (82F) within 10 minutes of starting it from the app, the windows will be melting fast and the fans will be at the highest setting. I see consumption numbers over 1500 Wh/Mi in exchange but the heat definitely works pretty much immediately.
Don't really know why, but when I want to warm the car, (2020 and 2022 Model 3a with Heat Pumps and Octovalves) I have to turn on the airflow to the feet as well as the dash vents. I get no perceptible heat until I turn on the lower vents, then it warms up quite fast.
Preconditioning does turn on everything (defrosters included) as is meant to get everything warmed up as fast as possible, including for the car to drive, which may be where the discrepancy is? I'd be curious the exact differences on what's on (ie recirculation?) when precondition from app vs just entering and turning on heat manually 🤔
I suspect the heat pump doesn't even work at minus 20. So the car is probably using the motors to generate heat at least up to a certain point. So the heat pump may win because it technically has 2 sources of heat.
@@erickwardwell962drive motors, inverters, battery, computer, blower motor, etc. Sandy Munro has a great video explaining the amazing engineering of the Tesla heat pump/octovalve
Alyssa's passenger vents were blowing directly at the seat just above the thermometer, while Kyle's was split upwards and to either side of the thermometer... I would love to see the range loss comparison for both cars to heat the cabins! Kyle and Alyssa, thank y'all for the dedication on these real-world tests!!!!!
I can't confirm 100%, but I'm fairly certain the heat pump model used the induction motor coils to heat up, which then sends that warmer oil through the heat exchanger and then to the refrigerant heat exchanger. Last night when it was -7F, I got in the car after sitting for a couple hours and when I got to the stop sign at the end of the block, the power meter on display still showed power being used even though I was stopped. I didn't have Scan My Tesla up and running, but next time I want to try and remember to see what it's doing. The efficiency and efficacy of the heat pumps really ramps up with temperature. I notice above ~20F OAT, the heat pump uses a lot less energy keeping the cabin warm.
Alyssa is right about the fan speed. With resistive heaters, the hotter the element is, the higher the resistance, which means less amperage and less wattage output. The higher the fan speed, the more heat removed from the coil by cold air and the lower temperature of the heating element, which means lower resistance. Lower resistance means higher current and more wattage output
My experience with a PTC Model 3 and a HP Model Y is that they seem to get warmer faster than in your tests, even when outside. Recirculate probably would have helped both. We store ours in a garage so even when its -10F outside its still 32F in the car so that certainly helps as well in day to day situations. Below -10C/14F the heat pump is ineffective at pulling heat from the atmosphere so the way it heats is to run air through the cabin evaporator and cabin condenser in series to extract the heat from running the compressor itself.
Yea, I don't know why they didn't use recirculate. I have a feeling auto doesn't recirculate because of the human breath fogging windows. But if you used the app and selected defrost, the system might recirculate by default because it assumes there isn't a human adding moisture.
@@BenefitOfTheDoubtInquiry Apparently defrost doesn't do recirculate either, at least it doesn't when you engage it from the app while sitting in the car. Granted it's 15° out where I'm at at the moment, but using manual setting, foot middle and windshield blower on recirculate on, max fan The car went from 14° to 70°in 3 minutes. With recirculate on it does run the AC to help dehumidify.
@@NickLiang Passively using waste heat while driving. As far as I've noticed it doesn't run the motor inefficiently, or do the locked rotor thing. I've never heard the telltale whine of the motor at least. The heat pump itself is instead used. Even if the heat pump can't pull heat from the air, it does generate heat just running and compressing the refrigerant
As for the air speed, it shouldn’t matter. The heater is still producing the max number of thermal units. It’s just dispersing it faster so the peak heat doesn’t feel as warm at the vent.
Thanks to both of you, especially Alyssa for enduring this cold to bring us this test. I thought the resistive heater would be faster too. Awesome result!
@@Xanthopteryx Or you know, they just use really cheap PTC heaters. Even a small space heater can heat a room in minutes. Seems odd how weak the one in the Tesla is. The heat pump should be more efficient, but it shouldn't be as effective this below freezing. Not unless they limit the power to the PTC.
@@Skylancer727 We do not know the battery temperature before the test start. And Tesla uses the battery to heat the cabin if there is heat in the battery. The PTC heaters they use can be too small. Even though they might have the specs of let's say 7 kW, you have to be able to get rid of all that heat and transfer it to the air blowing through it, and if it is not effective at doing that, the PTC will self regulate to a lower power. I do not think this is strange at all since Tesla really have no idea of how cold climate works (or even wet climates, not to mention cold and wet climate). I remember when Tesla first came to Sweden. Heated seats was an add on! The same with heated rear mirrors! I mean, Come On! It is Sweden! That is pure ridiculous. Took them several years to learn that this should be part of the standard package. "Winter package", that is just... NO. Stupidity...
@@Xanthopteryx well if the PTC isn't getting enough air flow, they would still need a better fan for the heat pump as well. Heat pumps still have a sapping point and heat pumps have an issue with freezing over when it's too cold. After dropping below -4°F is usually around where heat pumps fall behind as they need to heat cycle. If they just run on hot the outside condenser will just be coated with ice and no longer be able to transfer heat. Then the system has to run in reverse for a second to thaw out then resume normal function on repeat. The PTC should also kick in faster as it doesn't need to spin up a pump or sap the lines. I know I'v experienced heat pump and space heater and the space heaters are usually faster to kick in, but they use more power.
@@Skylancer727 It all depends on how large the condenser is for the heat pump. I am not that into how exactly Tesla designed this but i Think(!), from what i have read, that they use liquids to take the heat from the condenser, and then brings it to a normal radiator the heats the air to the cabin.
Props to Alyssa for enduring another Out Of Spec Trial. One note - higher fan speed = more air getting sucked in from outside? It the PTC heater is a constant power (eg 3KW) the extra air will slow down heating up the cabin. Depends on how well the car handles recirculation.
Side point, but I believe the PTC heater for the cabin will reach 6-8kW at full power, but absolutely agree with what you said that heat flow depends on the temperature of the air hitting the heat exchanger. Especially if it's a 30 - 50 K difference between outdoor and cabin air temperature.
Recirculation was on, but the fan speed definitely has an impact as it blasts air across the freezing cold surfaces inside the car. It's adding the same amount of energy at a low fan speed, just less wasted energy blasting across the freezing windows.
Positive Temperature Coefficient heaters have lower resistance when cold and higher resistance when hot. At higher fan speeds the heater should be lower temperature so it’ll be producing more heat even though the discharge air temperature is probably lower. But higher fan speed also means there’s more outside air coming in unless there’s some fancy means of limiting outside air but still preventing windshield fogging. Too many variables. I don’t have the answer.
My wife and I have the auto vs fan speed discussion about every time we ride together! I’m the auto speed and she thinks the other way. In an ice car faster fan speed just blows more cold air until the engine warms up. As the owner of a heat pump 2021 Tesla Model 3, I’m surprised it took this long with either car! Like watching the extreme tests😁
I'm going to say that the PTC car probably has an issue with a temperature sensor on account that that should have heated a lot faster than the heat pump since the heat pump just basically exchanges the heat from the outside air and transfers the heat to the inside the car. The lower the temperature is outside the less efficient a heat pump is that's why it's very rare to see a heat pump very far north because it becomes more and more inefficient the colder the temperature is. That is because there is less heat in the air to transfer.
Well thanks for the tests. I have the heat pump in my new 2023 model Y which I just purchased in August this year. I have no complaints with the heat pump and doing preconditioning right now in December 2023. The vehicle is very warm when I get into it on my scheduling time set. I always do preconditioning now in the colder months. I do notice that the Preconditioning does use a small percentage of the battery before I actually get into the vehicle. Thanks again and take care.
Kyle: I am a retired consulting mechanical and electrical engineer. I assisted architects in the construction of commercial and residential buildings, on the electrical & mechanical systems. Advantages and disadvantages. Heat pump systems use less energy when heating than resistance heat systems. However, the energy savings vary based on outdoor air temperature for the air to air systems, like the Tesla. Disadvantages are that the heat pump system works poorly in very cold situations. The resistant heat systems warm up quickly, are not affected by outside air temperature, but use more energy at moderate outside air temperatures. Also, the heat pump systems use an electrically-driven compressor, which is a mechanical system that may suffer from long, extended use. Our Tesla Model 3 is a 2020 model with the resistance heat system.
While on paper these results are surprising, in practice Ive spent a lot of time in older model Ss as well as newer model 3s and my winter experience lines up very closely
One thing to keep in mind is they both technically have PTC heaters. So technically this is PTC vs PTC + HP. I think that's where the real advantage is. The heat pump model pumps power through the stators of the motors as its resistive heater for extreme temperatures, like the "emergency heat" option on a heat pump HVAC system. Useful when the heat pump would be too slow. The PTC's maximum efficiency is 100% (pretty much by definition), while the heat pump's minimum "efficiency" is 100%, but it can get over 400%. (For heat pumps, we use "Coefficient of Performance" instead of "efficiency", partially because it makes it clear it's not generating "new" heat, it's just moving heat in from outside. So this would be a CoP of 4.) But the thing is, both the PTC and the heat pump might be 100% efficient in the worst case, but the heat pump is
PTC used roughly 8kWh Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh Not totally accurate measurements but it’s as close as we can calculate - heat pump definitely more efficient
@@KyleConner I thought the two resistive PTC elements on the NONE heat pump cars pulled a max of 8KW? So for the approx 30 minute test the heated driver seat, HVAC fan and background overhead pulled around 8KW also, not likely? IE.. You would need to use energy at an average rate of 16KW to use 8KWH in your approx 30 minute test. I think Scan My Tesla could have given a fairly accurate estimate of the battery energy used and by what during this heating test. I do not think either car would have been using energy to specifically warm the HV traction battery as it would if preconditioning. SMT would have indicated if any energy was being sent to either of the motor stators on both cars. I think SMT is a must to help understand what is going on for these kinds of tests! BTW, thanks to you and your wife for performing this test in the brutal cold. Sorry, I see your test was around about 45 minutes, I was looking at the video length.
Heat pumps are so great! We Norwegians were so happy when Tesla made that move a while ago.. much more effective, less range loss, and heats extremely quick. Love our 2023 Model Y with a heat pump… it’s been amazing the last few weeks during the winter conditions here, such as this weeks -20 degrees Celsius around most of Easter Norway close to and north of Oslo and in the mountains.
I have a 2020 model 3 and since this year my heater worked very well, except below -10. This winter the heater is set to 80 and shuts off when the interior gets to 50. I think an update changed it and made the older heaters worse!
10:45 Dang! That Tesla cabin is cavernous! The echo is sensational EDIT: Just kidding about the above. But a thought just came to me: Should have had an ICE vehicle up in there for more broad comparison. God bless the both of you and than your both!!!
Would it have made a difference if the recirculating air was on in the heat pump? I traded my 2018 model 3 with ptc for 2023 Y with heat pump. Surprisingly, it seems like the heat pump performs better than the ptc. I tested this during the blizzard and I was impressed. Thanks to the both of you for this testing.
@@Xanthopteryx Teslas will "run" the motors at zero efficiency to generate heat to warm the battery and cabin. Pumping electricity to the motors without them turning is excellent at making heat. It's not "cheating".
@@danoberste8146 It is not zero efficiency. It is 1:1 efficiency. And yes, it is a bit of 'cheating' since you bypass the heat pump and speeds things up, but at the cost of lower efficiency. So it is not only the heat pump that is used. And the same, if batteries has heat in them (takes a long time to cool then down entirely), it will use that too.
@@Xanthopteryx not sure if they skip heat pump as there's very advanced heat recovery system in use. We would know more if both cars had Scan My Tesla used
More cold weather videos like this! Im going into my first Fairbanks, Alaska winter in my 2023 MYLR so im excited to see how it does. Its hard to vind videos like this, so keep them coming!
The PTC very well may have heated more quickly if only proper settings, i. e. recirculate and also not AUTO been used. Even on ICE vehicles, an old trucker taught me that using recirculate heats a cabin quicker because you’re not continuously heating outside air coming into the cabin. You’re simply heating the existing cabin air . Same is true in summer with AC.
Thank you for the great test, braving the freezing cold. Surprised the heat pump worked at all in that temperature. Wonder if there was a resistance heater that kicked in?
We have recently been using our Model Y 2023 with a heat pump in -20 degrees Celsius here in Norway. No issues.. heats insanely fast! Much better than our old Model X late 2017 without a heat pump that spent ages to get warm, but still much faster than old fossile cars of course.
@@1whoQuestions there are some heat pumps that are able to capture heat working in -22°. If the evaporator is colder than the surrounding air you have a heat pump
Surprising result. We got a 2018 Mid-range as a loaner when our 2022 LR needed to go in for repairs. It was a little below freezing the entire time we had it, and it had absolutely no issue heating up the car. It was basically instant heat. The efficiency was horrific, averaging 100-120Wh/mi MORE than our 2022 for the exact same commute in the same temperatures, but it had no issue keeping the car warm. I can’t imagine why a PTC heater would have an issue in cold temperatures. It should have generated instant heat. I would have expected the heat pump to struggle. It must be using the motors to generate heat and scavenging the heat from that, because I can’t imagine it getting enough heat from outside. Only thing I’d question is when was the cabin air filter last replaced on the PTC car? I read some comments saying that Alyssa running the car in recirculate invalidates the test because recirc mode runs the AC to dehumidify the air, but 1) it would do that in auto anyway and 2) no regular AC-only system will run in -20F because the system pressure will be too low.
FYI cars heat up much faster on a lower fan speed as you don't end up sending so much air outside with such a high positive cabin pressure, so when she set that one to the highest fan speed she severely handicapped that car.
I can't swear, but if you set the climate control to RECIRCULATE that should also work on heat. Although since the 80's all cars were required to have some fresh air blown in, any time the key was on, to prevent CO poisoning. I don't know if EVs are exempted from that law.
My LR3'22 has the heated steering wheel as well, absolutely love it! Doesn't get much cooler than about 0c - a couple of degrees more in the non insulated garage - in Melbourne, but I bloody love the remote climate. Best thing ever.
be interesting to see the power draw and where the pump draws heat from. does it use the motors in a locked rotor state to add heat to the system? like it does for the battery heating system? i think the ptc heater is best on auto, so it won't be overcooled. putting it on high only is probably stopping the recirc in the car from opening to warm it faster. maybe try auto only, with no person in them.
On the PTC car, when you crank the fan speed up to 10, all it's doing is pulling in more cold air, which has the opposite effect of cooling down the PTC heater. Set the fan speed to like 5 or 6 and it will heat up the car interior just fine.
It would have been interesting to use probe thermometers to check the temperature of the air coming from the vents in both cars. There could also be a difference between Auto and Full Speed on the PTC heater.
Great video. It would have been cool to see how an ICE vehicle would have done in this test. Probably would have taken forever without actually driving the car. The real benefit of the heat pump is not necessarily that it heats faster. The heat pump advantage should be in the efficiency of heating the car.
comment re: PTC ... I know for a fact that to get the "hottest" air out of my Bolt EV (which is PTC) I cannot use the MAX fan speed. I usually set it a few notches lower. The issue is the fan will blow more air over the heating unit than it can heat so you end up blowing cold air inside the cabin. I wonder if the M3 PTC is the same sort of deal since at the 21:13 (mark of the youtube video) she mentions not using AUTO but instead setting the fan speed to 10.
The air coming out of the vents at lower speed will indeed be a higher temp, but the overall BTUs transferred into the cabin would be the same. The resisteve heater can only produce so many BTUs so a lower fan speed only gives you the illusion of the heater working better because it feels warmer. The higher fan speed is transferring just as much heat into the cabin, overall. Hope I'm making sense.
@@sonovabeach Exactly and in fact the whole idea of a PTC is that it cuts down on the BTUs transferred as the heating element gets hot, for component safety. Therefore, you need maximum air flow for maximum BTUs, assuming you aren't pulling in a material amount more outside air.
I don’t know if it was right to change it from Auto to 10 manually. You’re just moving more extremely cold air over a heating element of the same temperature, resulting in cooler air. I mean it’s just like with a combustion motor (which is the heating element in that case): if you crank up the fan in extremely cold weather to 10 the engine never gets a chance to get warm and you will always just get warm air, but not hot air. In my old cars in winter I always used to set the temperature slider to cold for the first twenty minutes or so until the engine temperature is up. Then you can set it to hot.
@@canadianthought I’ve seen similar performance as yours but I always keep the car plugged in to allow the BMS to maintain the HV pack and the heater to draw shore power during initial cabin warming.
I think that higher fan speed would make the air right outside the vent not as hot, but the overall heat energy in the cabin should be the same (a lot of air heated slightly, rather than a little air heated up more)
Actually it heats up much faster on a lower fan speed as you don't end up sending so much air outside with such a high positive cabin pressure. So by doing that she invalidated the test entirely.
@@SirDragonClaw That's what I was thinking. If the computer determines that a lower fan speed is pulling the heat away from the element/exchanger at the optimal rate, a higher fan speed is exhausting warm air out of the cabin. It may be worth testing to determine if the "auto" setting is best, but for this test the settings should've been the same in both cars, whichever is chosen. I'd suspect that "auto" has reasons for what it's doing. ???🤷🏽
Looks like you didn't even think about mentioning if the system was set to recirc or outside air. Don't know how Tesla does their automatic mode but I would select recirc and add defrost if the windows fog.
A good question would be if they heat pump has resistive backup for these extreme temperatures. Also I am interested if either version would have performed better if the recirculate option was turned on so you aren't trying to heat exclusively outside air as air input.
My understanding is it uses the motors to create heat for the heat pump to work. This doesn't require the car to move, but they are able to run the motors without moving the car. Watch the Tesla Deep Freeze video and Kyle explains it a bit.
@@ericroe Ah that's a very clever way to get around having to install another part in the car. Smart engineering like that is what keeps Tesla well ahead of legacy automotive competition. Legacy automakers would put in resistive backup heat or have completely discrete thermal systems for the cabin vs the powertrain, adding weight, complexity, part count, and decreasing reliability and efficiency.
@@taylorlightfoot It is a novel approach, but its very complicated, and we have yet to see what running part of the motor does to increase wear on the motors.
I run a parking heater in my VW-Diesel, it heats to 23-24 degrees C within 3-5 Minutes. And a range of 1200km on one tank of fuel, plus it can tow a trailer for much muchlonger than Hoovie with his E-Pickup Truck.
Great work! Thanks for your sacrifice. It would have also been cool to see the new energy graph on the car. But I'm glad the new heat pump works so well in -20° F!
Had to have a temperature sensor replaced in my 2018 Model 3 about 2 months ago. Was already out of warranty so cost me $150 and had to wait for part to be ordered so 2 trips to service center. Wish we had a display in the car for interior temperature without having to look at the phone app. Interesting test ty.
Can you do the test again, but with recirculation mode on for both? That'd make it a much fairer test since the different fan speeds you both used will pull in fresh cold air in at different rates.
Test was invalidated when she took it off auto. Putting it in manual would disable recirculation and give the PTC car a MASSIVE disadvantage. It was literally trying to heat the car using only the outside air while the heat pump was able to use the inside air.
That's an interesting review especially for those living in the cold. FYI a heat pump has temperature range for use, and generally the best start working above -10°C, below they're not even powered. The heat pump will "spare" consumption of electricity when the car is heated and the temperature outside is between 0°C and car temp setting.
It would be interesting to see how long it would take an assortment of gas and diesel vehicles to reach 70° inside the cabin under the same conditions.
About 10 years ago I had a VW turbodiesel and one morning when it was -15F I drove 20 miles in 35minutes on empty suburban roads (no one else was fool enough to go into work) and the engine didn't even make it to operating temp, let alone give me heat. My V8 truck takes about 8 minutes when driving in town at these low temps to start getting heat, which means right about the time I get home from dropping the kids off I start getting a little warmth. In winter, the Tesla is my preferred vehicle to drop kids off because it heats up faster than anything else.
@@TheSerenation Yeah, so I’ve driven many cars over the last 30 years all being combustion vehicles and I’ve never really had much of an issue, at least nothing compared to waiting for 45 minutes to barely get warm.
Things to know: regardless of heat pumps, cars usually always have a PTC heating unit. They use this to get to the desired temperature fast then switch to the heatpump to keep it while consuming much less power. Short trips may therefore not make a noticeable difference while living no trips will definitely show. Depending on the heatpump, it should be able to operate down to -25C. (Heatpump do not draw their heat from the outside like people think, that’s why it actually working even when it’s cold)
Nice, Great! Roll down the windows while doing the cabin heat test. You could have just recorded the phone app from inside the heated Rivian. Kyle, you also know you put out a lot of HOT air yourself! 😜
Kyle's car went to 9 on its own Allyssa's never went above 6 Even though she tried to push it higher it was less effective. Heat pump wins hands down. Great test once again from out of spec!
Wow. Glad you did this hardcore cold test. By me 35 degrees is pretty cold. And at that temp, the heat pump in my 2022 X is pumping warm air by the time I get 200 feet from my house.
She said she only had 8% in the PTC car! I bet the HVAC wasn't going full power. Anything below 20% and the car starts to manage energy more efficiently to protect range and battery health.
@@MrAdopado That doesn't sound right, becuase when kyle was sitting in the car with her, he put climate on "keep" when they both got out. If the car was below 20%, you won't get the option to turn on "keep"
If you look at the video, it looks like the Heat Pump car starts at 84% SoC, and ends at 76 or 78% SoC... They didn't show what the PTC car started at, but when Kyle steps into it at the end, the display shows the PTC car was sitting at 68% SoC.
Yes, you have your gloves on and you layered some. Glad to see it. Also, not suprized with the HP winning out. At neg 21 with wc my heat pumps were set to 68 on the house and did a great job, with no aux heat activated. Elements have to cool off at intervals so they don't blow out...anyone who has a wall heater using an element will notice it cycles on and off. Ever notice your older stove eye element having dark spots on it? Yah, they do ware out in time. Toaster elements are the same. HP does not have that issue.
I would rather see you driving for 3-4 hours in 0 Fahrenheit and measure the use of kW. The Opel Ampera-e (Bolt) roughly halved the distance in the winter and it had no heat pump.
I live in Regina, Saskatchewan Canada where we see temperatures in the -40c(-40F) range,(with out the wind). I've only had my 2022 Model Y for 5 months, so far I've driven in -35c temp driving to work, which is 63km away on the highway. My heat pump worked very, very well, drove with temp on 23c and fan speed on 4 without the wind and fan speed 5 with the wind,(windows doesn't get frosted up on fan speed 5 when it's windy). I was concerned based on the experiences of other tesla owners last year with heat loss. So far I'm happy with it.
@@mattwolf7698 The way the Tesla heat pump works when its too cold to get heat from atmosphere (below -10C/14F) is it runs air through the cabin evaporator and cabin condenser, one right after the other. The heat you get out of it is roughly the same as the amount of energy used when running the compressor - about 5-6kW. Comparable to the PTC. Its kinda like running a fridge in a tiny room and leaving the door open.
Presumably the resistive heater model will draw more outside air in as a proportion of its airflow where as the heat pump model will use more recirculated interior air, as it will be drying the air too. In auto mode the resistive model would soon steam up and be running with moisture if it did not take that into account. So, after a while the heat pump has less work to do as it is just boosting the temp of warmer air. And, yes, a competitive summary of the power used would have been helpful info. Thanks for what you did do though.
I would have LOVED to have a control ICE car of similar size, maybe a BMW 5 series, to see the difference between EVs and gas cars. Maybe next time it's super cold, you can run that test too? Great video and thanks to Alyssa for dealing with Kyle's crazy ideas!
@@jbdragon3295eh no, my cars frequently start at -25 degrees F. The oil may thicken and flow more slowly, but it doesn’t freeze and as far as radiator, most water/antifreeze solutions are good down to -40 degrees F.
I had an Acura Integra and if below zero and idling, the engine would not generate enough heat to exceed the heat being removed from the heater core. It would have failed this same test.
@@randycooper6098t really depends a lot on the make and model year. My older cars would have failed miserably just sitting at idle at this temperature, but a lot of newer cars do special things to generate excess waste heat to warm up more quickly in these temperatures today to reduce their emissions (since an engine that’s too cold polutes _a lot_ more pollution than one that’s properly warmed up).
I think Alyssa did amazing!!! Thank you for braving the cold. She absolutely did what a normal user would have done. As it turns out, I do think the PTC car might have warmed up faster if left on auto. By how much? Probably not enough to beat the heat pump. I just remember my grandmother “Oma” waiting to turn on the heat in her Buick. I always thought she was crazy, but we tested it once and she was right! The car did warm up faster when you left the fan off and waited a few minutes before turning on the fan. It was old and didn’t have auto. My guess is that the tesla was doing the same thing on auto, waiting to ramp the fan until the heater was hot. BTW. I have Model Y 1172. One of the first batches. Ordered it on March 17th, 2020. Took delivery on March 21st, 2020. No idea how I got it in 4 days! My heat pump did fail. I can confirm it was very cold. They had to replace it and there was a firmware update. Works great ever since! Would love to see how long the Rivian takes to heat up from ice cold and how much energy it uses vs Tesla heat pump.
Everybody who lives near the arctic circle knows that, let the car run on recycle first. Heat the already heated air and help the heater get hot at the same time.
Yes, that will make a huge difference. Heating 50ºF air vs. -20ºF air. I think Alyssa's car may have been sucking in 100% outside air and Kyles may have been using some recirculated air.
I'm blown away. If I had to put money on this test, I would have bet against the Heat Pump. They just don't typically work well at these crazy low temps. And to think that the heat pump uses almost exactly 1/3 the energy of that resistive heater. That, my friends, is technology at work. I'm really glad I watched this.
From what I have read, While stationary the ptc uses just over 1% per hour, heat pump right at or just under one percent per hour, this is at around 32F though
Nice test. I would have liked to have seen stats about the energy consumption between the two heating methods also, not just the speed of the operation. I'm assuming the Tesla software provides that sort of info too.
For those that dont know the The term "heat pump" referres to the entire car acting to generate heat from multiple components. Its not a single thing on its own. The system scavenges heat anywhere it can. The humming you hear is just the coolant pump circulating fluid to capture and dump energy.
The sensing element is in the rear of those thermometers (I have two). First is the thermometer is not out of the package and looks like the cellophane is still on it. The packaging will make the thermometer lag far behind the true ambient temperature.
Model Y with heat pump did really bad in a Finnish car magazine Tekniikan Maailma's winter car test. It took 17 minutes to reach +15C and it was only -7C outside. For comparison Kia EV6 reached that temp in 6,5 minutes. The Model Y could never reach the 23C target temperature while the Mercedes EQA got to 23C only in 9,5 minutes.
Somebody must have gotten a special bonus in their banking account. My Model Y LR goes from much colder, -10F (-23.3C) to 72F (22.2C) in well under 10 minutes in my mid Minnesota area and I always use low fan speeds. Their Model Y couldn't reach 23C? They must have had all the windows open.
Huge thanks again to Alyssa for braving the cold with me and sitting in a frozen car for a silly TH-cam video! The results are not what I would have expected at all. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts as I’m definitely not an HVAC expert.
One note: at the end Alyssa mentions taking the PTC car out of Auto - she did this around the 30 minute mark - something to keep in mind.
Not related to the cold soak test but during normal everyday heater usage.
Alyssa mentioned that’s she noticed the car has to be on high to feel the heat. I’m experiencing the same thing with my 2022 model 3 with heat pump. After researching on forums, I discovered that for the heat to work without being on high you have to turn on both the face and leg vent at the same time. Ever since I tried that, I can have the heat on 72 and still feel heat.
Not a problem with your car, just something Tesla probably changed with the recent updates.
Perhaps we can persuade Kyle to test if this is a software bug, or if there is a reason Tesla doesn’t activate heat at less than 81 degrees until both leg and face vents are selected.
She has definitely earned a day at a spa after the tortures 😂 great job guys!
I'm curious if you guys tracked the energy usage over the time you were testing? A comparison between the two cars would be interesting to show how much more efficient a heat pump is compared to resistive heating in exactly the same conditions.
relative power consumpotion would have been an intersting additional bit of info but perhaps hard to measure
PTC used roughly 8kWh
Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh
Not totally accurate measurements but it's as close as we can get
Not fair, Kyle generates more hot air than Alyssa!🤣
very true lol
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Joking aside it likely is correct that his larger body puts out more heat.
I could have told you that BEFORE the test. 😜
False! Fats insulate heat!
A more meaningful test would be how much total energy did each use over time?
Depends on what you want to measure.
@@mravecsk1 kWh used over the testing period.
PTC used roughly 8kWh
Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh
Not totally accurate measurements but it’s as close as we can calculate - heat pump definitely more efficient
@@nonconsensualopinion Yes, but for some people is also or more important how fast you can get cabin warmed up. As in my country we get -15, -20C as well, I care more about instant heat then short term spike in consumption.
@@KyleConner Make this a second pin comment or add it to your existing pinned comment so more people can see it!!
One thing that makes a HUGE difference, is whether it's drawing in outside air, or, whether it's recirculating the air inside the car. A heating element has a certain temperature rise, so, if the intake air is too cold, you may never reach setpoint, because the wattage of the heater Vs. CFM of airflow will not allow discharge heat to ever become that hot. When recirculating, the temperature will rise, because the heating element is adding its temperature rise to the warmer air from the interior of the vehicle. If the heater is in recirculating mode, turning up the fans is the right thing to do, because the more thermal load on a PTC heater, the more wattage it will draw.(until rated maximum) If using fresh air intake, turning up the fans reduces temperature rise, and the car will never get warm. Defrost mode uses fresh air, to maintain lowest possible humidity. Again, it may be a mistake, to run the fans too fast in defrost mode.
I wish they'd have mentioned how much battery capacity was used for the test in the two cars. That would be valuable info for estimating range on cold days and whether the HVAC used less power than the resistive heater.
This is my question too. I really wanted to know how much energy each of them used in the process.
PTC used roughly 8kWh
Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh
Not totally accurate measurements but it’s as close as we can calculate - heat pump definitely more efficient
I am kind of surprised the heat pump is working that well as at home my heat pump had to use stage one & Two PTC ever time it dips below freezing
@@Teknomanslade2 Thanks for the info, it's interesting they're not that much different as far as the efficiency. But I suppose in really cold temps with the heat pump every little bit of extra battery capacity helps.
@@td_kdname5197 yea especially if you arent plugging in your car frequently (people who live in apts, condos, etc. compared to a house) not to mention the sentry mode if that is on. But the initial heat pumps did have issue in the colder climates but I think that was both software and hardware issue that has supposedly been fixed.
The fact that the car can get the cabin 100 degrees hotter than the outside is impressive
If it can deal with less extreme cold at highway speeds, -20F at rest should be a cinch.
@@concinnus yup. Big difference at highway speed vs standing still.
Honestly all-though I live in L.A I truly appreciate the content 💯 thank you so much for your research 🙌🏻💯🙏🏻
Thats the point of a heater.
And using a heat pump no less. Word is heat pumps stop working much at all at 0. -20, and I'm surprised they got any heat at all. Tesla is truly amazing at engineering lets hope they get the home heat pump tech out there so we can buy it, save lots of money on home heating costs.
Something isn't right, my 2020 Model 3 with PTC heaters starts blowing actual hot air within 30 seconds of a completely cold soaked start even in below zero (F) temperatures on auto. I took mine out just a couple days ago with barely 5 minutes of preconditioning in -10F weather and it was gloves off warm and comfortable the whole time. Usually on high/defrost I get the notification saying the cabin has reached temperature (82F) within 10 minutes of starting it from the app, the windows will be melting fast and the fans will be at the highest setting. I see consumption numbers over 1500 Wh/Mi in exchange but the heat definitely works pretty much immediately.
This is also my experience with a 2018 Model 3.
Don't really know why, but when I want to warm the car, (2020 and 2022 Model 3a with Heat Pumps and Octovalves) I have to turn on the airflow to the feet as well as the dash vents. I get no perceptible heat until I turn on the lower vents, then it warms up quite fast.
Same, 2020 3, made Oct 2019.
Preconditioning does turn on everything (defrosters included) as is meant to get everything warmed up as fast as possible, including for the car to drive, which may be where the discrepancy is? I'd be curious the exact differences on what's on (ie recirculation?) when precondition from app vs just entering and turning on heat manually 🤔
Can also confirm the PTC heater is usually at temp within 10 minutes no matter the temp outside. 2020 SR+
I suspect the heat pump doesn't even work at minus 20. So the car is probably using the motors to generate heat at least up to a certain point. So the heat pump may win because it technically has 2 sources of heat.
I would agree, Strange that the heat pump doesn't also include at least a small PTC. But I guess it's not needed.
Heat pumps can work in those temperatures. But they need to be made for it.
The car has 15 source of heat with heat pump.
@@pankajbalegar good lord from where? Motors? Computers? Head light led module? 😂
@@erickwardwell962drive motors, inverters, battery, computer, blower motor, etc. Sandy Munro has a great video explaining the amazing engineering of the Tesla heat pump/octovalve
Alyssa's passenger vents were blowing directly at the seat just above the thermometer, while Kyle's was split upwards and to either side of the thermometer... I would love to see the range loss comparison for both cars to heat the cabins! Kyle and Alyssa, thank y'all for the dedication on these real-world tests!!!!!
I can't confirm 100%, but I'm fairly certain the heat pump model used the induction motor coils to heat up, which then sends that warmer oil through the heat exchanger and then to the refrigerant heat exchanger. Last night when it was -7F, I got in the car after sitting for a couple hours and when I got to the stop sign at the end of the block, the power meter on display still showed power being used even though I was stopped.
I didn't have Scan My Tesla up and running, but next time I want to try and remember to see what it's doing. The efficiency and efficacy of the heat pumps really ramps up with temperature. I notice above ~20F OAT, the heat pump uses a lot less energy keeping the cabin warm.
You are both real stars for your cold condition testing.
Alyssa is right about the fan speed. With resistive heaters, the hotter the element is, the higher the resistance, which means less amperage and less wattage output. The higher the fan speed, the more heat removed from the coil by cold air and the lower temperature of the heating element, which means lower resistance. Lower resistance means higher current and more wattage output
In general, a heatpump is 6x more efficient at heating than resistive heat. It's easier to move heat than to create heat, even in low temps.
Does more efficient equate to quicker heating though?
My experience with a PTC Model 3 and a HP Model Y is that they seem to get warmer faster than in your tests, even when outside. Recirculate probably would have helped both.
We store ours in a garage so even when its -10F outside its still 32F in the car so that certainly helps as well in day to day situations.
Below -10C/14F the heat pump is ineffective at pulling heat from the atmosphere so the way it heats is to run air through the cabin evaporator and cabin condenser in series to extract the heat from running the compressor itself.
Recirculate definitely helps since you’re reheating cabin air versus incoming air from outside. Same with AC in summer.
Yea, I don't know why they didn't use recirculate. I have a feeling auto doesn't recirculate because of the human breath fogging windows. But if you used the app and selected defrost, the system might recirculate by default because it assumes there isn't a human adding moisture.
@@BenefitOfTheDoubtInquiry Apparently defrost doesn't do recirculate either, at least it doesn't when you engage it from the app while sitting in the car.
Granted it's 15° out where I'm at at the moment, but using manual setting, foot middle and windshield blower on recirculate on, max fan The car went from 14° to 70°in 3 minutes.
With recirculate on it does run the AC to help dehumidify.
Doesn't the HP models use the motors to generate heat for the heat pump?
@@NickLiang Passively using waste heat while driving.
As far as I've noticed it doesn't run the motor inefficiently, or do the locked rotor thing. I've never heard the telltale whine of the motor at least.
The heat pump itself is instead used. Even if the heat pump can't pull heat from the air, it does generate heat just running and compressing the refrigerant
As for the air speed, it shouldn’t matter. The heater is still producing the max number of thermal units. It’s just dispersing it faster so the peak heat doesn’t feel as warm at the vent.
Thanks to both of you, especially Alyssa for enduring this cold to bring us this test. I thought the resistive heater would be faster too. Awesome result!
They probably 'cheat' by working the motors to create more heat on the heat pump.
@@Xanthopteryx Or you know, they just use really cheap PTC heaters. Even a small space heater can heat a room in minutes. Seems odd how weak the one in the Tesla is. The heat pump should be more efficient, but it shouldn't be as effective this below freezing. Not unless they limit the power to the PTC.
@@Skylancer727 We do not know the battery temperature before the test start. And Tesla uses the battery to heat the cabin if there is heat in the battery.
The PTC heaters they use can be too small. Even though they might have the specs of let's say 7 kW, you have to be able to get rid of all that heat and transfer it to the air blowing through it, and if it is not effective at doing that, the PTC will self regulate to a lower power.
I do not think this is strange at all since Tesla really have no idea of how cold climate works (or even wet climates, not to mention cold and wet climate).
I remember when Tesla first came to Sweden. Heated seats was an add on! The same with heated rear mirrors! I mean, Come On! It is Sweden! That is pure ridiculous.
Took them several years to learn that this should be part of the standard package.
"Winter package", that is just... NO. Stupidity...
@@Xanthopteryx well if the PTC isn't getting enough air flow, they would still need a better fan for the heat pump as well. Heat pumps still have a sapping point and heat pumps have an issue with freezing over when it's too cold. After dropping below -4°F is usually around where heat pumps fall behind as they need to heat cycle. If they just run on hot the outside condenser will just be coated with ice and no longer be able to transfer heat. Then the system has to run in reverse for a second to thaw out then resume normal function on repeat. The PTC should also kick in faster as it doesn't need to spin up a pump or sap the lines. I know I'v experienced heat pump and space heater and the space heaters are usually faster to kick in, but they use more power.
@@Skylancer727 It all depends on how large the condenser is for the heat pump. I am not that into how exactly Tesla designed this but i Think(!), from what i have read, that they use liquids to take the heat from the condenser, and then brings it to a normal radiator the heats the air to the cabin.
Props to Alyssa for enduring another Out Of Spec Trial. One note - higher fan speed = more air getting sucked in from outside? It the PTC heater is a constant power (eg 3KW) the extra air will slow down heating up the cabin. Depends on how well the car handles recirculation.
Side point, but I believe the PTC heater for the cabin will reach 6-8kW at full power, but absolutely agree with what you said that heat flow depends on the temperature of the air hitting the heat exchanger. Especially if it's a 30 - 50 K difference between outdoor and cabin air temperature.
Recirculation was on, but the fan speed definitely has an impact as it blasts air across the freezing cold surfaces inside the car. It's adding the same amount of energy at a low fan speed, just less wasted energy blasting across the freezing windows.
Positive Temperature Coefficient heaters have lower resistance when cold and higher resistance when hot. At higher fan speeds the heater should be lower temperature so it’ll be producing more heat even though the discharge air temperature is probably lower. But higher fan speed also means there’s more outside air coming in unless there’s some fancy means of limiting outside air but still preventing windshield fogging. Too many variables. I don’t have the answer.
The same test with AC service menu open would be very interesting with all the temps shown there.
My wife and I have the auto vs fan speed discussion about every time we ride together! I’m the auto speed and she thinks the other way. In an ice car faster fan speed just blows more cold air until the engine warms up.
As the owner of a heat pump 2021 Tesla Model 3, I’m surprised it took this long with either car! Like watching the extreme tests😁
Same. Ive only used mine in the 30-40F temp and takes more or less 3min to get to my desired 69F temp on auto.
When was the last time you replaced the cabin air filter? 🤔
Seems like the heat pump heater is capable of being software updated vs the PTC version.
Aww man this reminds me of the old Bjorn Nyland videos years ago!! Love it
I'm going to say that the PTC car probably has an issue with a temperature sensor on account that that should have heated a lot faster than the heat pump since the heat pump just basically exchanges the heat from the outside air and transfers the heat to the inside the car. The lower the temperature is outside the less efficient a heat pump is that's why it's very rare to see a heat pump very far north because it becomes more and more inefficient the colder the temperature is. That is because there is less heat in the air to transfer.
Well thanks for the tests. I have the heat pump in my new 2023 model Y which I just purchased in August this year. I have no complaints with the heat pump and doing preconditioning right now in December 2023. The vehicle is very warm when I get into it on my scheduling time set. I always do preconditioning now in the colder months. I do notice that the Preconditioning does use a small percentage of the battery before I actually get into the vehicle.
Thanks again and take care.
I absolutely love these tests for nerds like us. Appreciate you both Alyssa and Kyle!
Kyle: I am a retired consulting mechanical and electrical engineer. I assisted architects in the construction of commercial and residential buildings, on the electrical & mechanical systems. Advantages and disadvantages. Heat pump systems use less energy when heating than resistance heat systems. However, the energy savings vary based on outdoor air temperature for the air to air systems, like the Tesla. Disadvantages are that the heat pump system works poorly in very cold situations. The resistant heat systems warm up quickly, are not affected by outside air temperature, but use more energy at moderate outside air temperatures. Also, the heat pump systems use an electrically-driven compressor, which is a mechanical system that may suffer from long, extended use. Our Tesla Model 3 is a 2020 model with the resistance heat system.
While on paper these results are surprising, in practice Ive spent a lot of time in older model Ss as well as newer model 3s and my winter experience lines up very closely
One thing to keep in mind is they both technically have PTC heaters. So technically this is PTC vs PTC + HP. I think that's where the real advantage is.
The heat pump model pumps power through the stators of the motors as its resistive heater for extreme temperatures, like the "emergency heat" option on a heat pump HVAC system. Useful when the heat pump would be too slow. The PTC's maximum efficiency is 100% (pretty much by definition), while the heat pump's minimum "efficiency" is 100%, but it can get over 400%.
(For heat pumps, we use "Coefficient of Performance" instead of "efficiency", partially because it makes it clear it's not generating "new" heat, it's just moving heat in from outside. So this would be a CoP of 4.)
But the thing is, both the PTC and the heat pump might be 100% efficient in the worst case, but the heat pump is
More interesting to know is how much energy is used to get to the higher temps.
Heat pump is much more efficient
@@AgentOffice in -20 im not sure, wouldnt be much of a diffrence
Unfortunately it's pretty much impossible to measure, but an energy consumption difference would have been interesting ...
PTC used roughly 8kWh
Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh
Not totally accurate measurements but it's as close as we can get
Could use an ODB dongle to read the actual drawn power. Bjørn nyland has a few videos showing that
Great timely video. Did you check how much battery was used warming up each of the cars or range reduction?
PTC used roughly 8kWh
Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh
Not totally accurate measurements but it’s as close as we can calculate - heat pump definitely more efficient
@@KyleConner I thought the two resistive PTC elements on the NONE heat pump cars pulled a max of 8KW? So for the approx 30 minute test the heated driver seat, HVAC fan and background overhead pulled around 8KW also, not likely? IE.. You would need to use energy at an average rate of 16KW to use 8KWH in your approx 30 minute test. I think Scan My Tesla could have given a fairly accurate estimate of the battery energy used and by what during this heating test. I do not think either car would have been using energy to specifically warm the HV traction battery as it would if preconditioning. SMT would have indicated if any energy was being sent to either of the motor stators on both cars. I think SMT is a must to help understand what is going on for these kinds of tests! BTW, thanks to you and your wife for performing this test in the brutal cold. Sorry, I see your test was around about 45 minutes, I was looking at the video length.
@@ronolsberg1468 can you look up kW and kWh? Thanks
@@basedw Fixed thanks! Need to proof read better next time.
Heat pumps are so great! We Norwegians were so happy when Tesla made that move a while ago.. much more effective, less range loss, and heats extremely quick. Love our 2023 Model Y with a heat pump… it’s been amazing the last few weeks during the winter conditions here, such as this weeks -20 degrees Celsius around most of Easter Norway close to and north of Oslo and in the mountains.
I have a 2020 model 3 and since this year my heater worked very well, except below -10. This winter the heater is set to 80 and shuts off when the interior gets to 50. I think an update changed it and made the older heaters worse!
10:45 Dang! That Tesla cabin is cavernous! The echo is sensational
EDIT: Just kidding about the above. But a thought just came to me: Should have had an ICE vehicle up in there for more broad comparison. God bless the both of you and than your both!!!
I sensed some definate temperature envy in Alyssa's " wow". Haha. Thanks for being such a trooper Alyssa. This is a really great data.
I think taking it off auto was a mistake. It might have got it slightly warmed fast, but it took all the heat from the PTC before it was hot.
It would’ve also been interesting to see what the battery was doing during this period of time I e how much draw was it making?
Did you check the cabin filter in your Model 3? Tesla service said could be a factor in how fast your car heats up.
Would it have made a difference if the recirculating air was on in the heat pump? I traded my 2018 model 3 with ptc for 2023 Y with heat pump. Surprisingly, it seems like the heat pump performs better than the ptc. I tested this during the blizzard and I was impressed. Thanks to the both of you for this testing.
Also surprised that heat pump won I'm wondering what was power consumption on both of the cars.
They probably 'cheated' by running the motors to create more heat.
@@laloajuria4678 You clearly does not know how it works, do you?
@@Xanthopteryx Teslas will "run" the motors at zero efficiency to generate heat to warm the battery and cabin. Pumping electricity to the motors without them turning is excellent at making heat. It's not "cheating".
@@danoberste8146 It is not zero efficiency. It is 1:1 efficiency. And yes, it is a bit of 'cheating' since you bypass the heat pump and speeds things up, but at the cost of lower efficiency. So it is not only the heat pump that is used. And the same, if batteries has heat in them (takes a long time to cool then down entirely), it will use that too.
@@Xanthopteryx not sure if they skip heat pump as there's very advanced heat recovery system in use. We would know more if both cars had Scan My Tesla used
Wouldn't recirculate on bring the temperature up faster?
More cold weather videos like this! Im going into my first Fairbanks, Alaska winter in my 2023 MYLR so im excited to see how it does. Its hard to vind videos like this, so keep them coming!
When Kyle finally gets around to deciding to put a ring on Alyssa's finger, he should remember that she went along with this!🙂
I think he is not the nicest to her in this video...
Wow, I expected the PTC heater to kick ass. I expected it to draw more kWh to get there, but to do it much faster from that cold.
The PTC very well may have heated more quickly if only proper settings, i. e. recirculate and also not AUTO been used. Even on ICE vehicles, an old trucker taught me that using recirculate heats a cabin quicker because you’re not continuously heating outside air coming into the cabin. You’re simply heating the existing cabin air . Same is true in summer with AC.
You do the best tests of anyone on TH-cam. Keep up the good work Kyle
Apparently you've never seen Project Farm.
Cool test but the execution on this one left a lot to be desired.
@kyle conner , Can you do a driving comparaison? Thanks
Thank you for the great test, braving the freezing cold. Surprised the heat pump worked at all in that temperature. Wonder if there was a resistance heater that kicked in?
We have recently been using our Model Y 2023 with a heat pump in -20 degrees Celsius here in Norway. No issues.. heats insanely fast! Much better than our old Model X late 2017 without a heat pump that spent ages to get warm, but still much faster than old fossile cars of course.
@@AleksanderHoff That's great to hear. Thanks. I read that heat pumps lose efficiency below 50-degrees Fahrenheit and it stops working below freezing.
@@1whoQuestions there are some heat pumps that are able to capture heat working in -22°. If the evaporator is colder than the surrounding air you have a heat pump
Surprising result. We got a 2018 Mid-range as a loaner when our 2022 LR needed to go in for repairs. It was a little below freezing the entire time we had it, and it had absolutely no issue heating up the car. It was basically instant heat. The efficiency was horrific, averaging 100-120Wh/mi MORE than our 2022 for the exact same commute in the same temperatures, but it had no issue keeping the car warm. I can’t imagine why a PTC heater would have an issue in cold temperatures. It should have generated instant heat. I would have expected the heat pump to struggle. It must be using the motors to generate heat and scavenging the heat from that, because I can’t imagine it getting enough heat from outside.
Only thing I’d question is when was the cabin air filter last replaced on the PTC car? I read some comments saying that Alyssa running the car in recirculate invalidates the test because recirc mode runs the AC to dehumidify the air, but 1) it would do that in auto anyway and 2) no regular AC-only system will run in -20F because the system pressure will be too low.
FYI cars heat up much faster on a lower fan speed as you don't end up sending so much air outside with such a high positive cabin pressure, so when she set that one to the highest fan speed she severely handicapped that car.
I can't swear, but if you set the climate control to RECIRCULATE that should also work on heat. Although since the 80's all cars were required to have some fresh air blown in, any time the key was on, to prevent CO poisoning. I don't know if EVs are exempted from that law.
My LR3'22 has the heated steering wheel as well, absolutely love it! Doesn't get much cooler than about 0c - a couple of degrees more in the non insulated garage - in Melbourne, but I bloody love the remote climate. Best thing ever.
be interesting to see the power draw and where the pump draws heat from.
does it use the motors in a locked rotor state to add heat to the system?
like it does for the battery heating system?
i think the ptc heater is best on auto, so it won't be overcooled.
putting it on high only is probably stopping the recirc in the car from opening to warm it faster.
maybe try auto only, with no person in them.
Why didn't you sit in the Rivian and start the heating from the Tesla App?
On the PTC car, when you crank the fan speed up to 10, all it's doing is pulling in more cold air, which has the opposite effect of cooling down the PTC heater. Set the fan speed to like 5 or 6 and it will heat up the car interior just fine.
The reason the PTC lost is because it was sucking in outside air. Set to re-circulate and it'll heat much quicker.
It would have been interesting to use probe thermometers to check the temperature of the air coming from the vents in both cars. There could also be a difference between Auto and Full Speed on the PTC heater.
Great video. It would have been cool to see how an ICE vehicle would have done in this test. Probably would have taken forever without actually driving the car.
The real benefit of the heat pump is not necessarily that it heats faster. The heat pump advantage should be in the efficiency of heating the car.
Awesome Test! I'm really surprised the heat pump did that much better in such extreme temps!
Thanks much for braving the cold and giving us an insight on how the two systems work.
comment re: PTC ... I know for a fact that to get the "hottest" air out of my Bolt EV (which is PTC) I cannot use the MAX fan speed. I usually set it a few notches lower. The issue is the fan will blow more air over the heating unit than it can heat so you end up blowing cold air inside the cabin.
I wonder if the M3 PTC is the same sort of deal since at the 21:13 (mark of the youtube video) she mentions not using AUTO but instead setting the fan speed to 10.
The air coming out of the vents at lower speed will indeed be a higher temp, but the overall BTUs transferred into the cabin would be the same. The resisteve heater can only produce so many BTUs so a lower fan speed only gives you the illusion of the heater working better because it feels warmer. The higher fan speed is transferring just as much heat into the cabin, overall. Hope I'm making sense.
@@sonovabeach Exactly and in fact the whole idea of a PTC is that it cuts down on the BTUs transferred as the heating element gets hot, for component safety. Therefore, you need maximum air flow for maximum BTUs, assuming you aren't pulling in a material amount more outside air.
I don’t know if it was right to change it from Auto to 10 manually. You’re just moving more extremely cold air over a heating element of the same temperature, resulting in cooler air. I mean it’s just like with a combustion motor (which is the heating element in that case): if you crank up the fan in extremely cold weather to 10 the engine never gets a chance to get warm and you will always just get warm air, but not hot air. In my old cars in winter I always used to set the temperature slider to cold for the first twenty minutes or so until the engine temperature is up. Then you can set it to hot.
Thanks for enduring the frigid cold! I thought the PTC would win also or at the very least can heat up a little bit quicker in the beginning.
Same, I have a PTC 3 and it heats up WAY faster than this video shows, from -30C to +24C in about 10 minutes usually. Something seems off.
@@canadianthought I wonder how much it makes a difference if the car is plugged in. I am betting yours is plugged in, correct?
@@canadianthought I’ve seen similar performance as yours but I always keep the car plugged in to allow the BMS to maintain the HV pack and the heater to draw shore power during initial cabin warming.
The first couple minutes the heat pump was behind, but once it started to generate a little heat it was like a Plaid racing a Prius. Great video.
I think that higher fan speed would make the air right outside the vent not as hot, but the overall heat energy in the cabin should be the same (a lot of air heated slightly, rather than a little air heated up more)
Actually it heats up much faster on a lower fan speed as you don't end up sending so much air outside with such a high positive cabin pressure. So by doing that she invalidated the test entirely.
And I believe Tesla's heat pump attempts to work like a hom HVAC. Taking the cold air and continue to circulate the air until it becomes warm air.
@@SirDragonClaw That's what I was thinking. If the computer determines that a lower fan speed is pulling the heat away from the element/exchanger at the optimal rate, a higher fan speed is exhausting warm air out of the cabin. It may be worth testing to determine if the "auto" setting is best, but for this test the settings should've been the same in both cars, whichever is chosen. I'd suspect that "auto" has reasons for what it's doing. ???🤷🏽
@@SirDragonClaw dang I didn't think of the positive pressure thing xddd
Looks like you didn't even think about mentioning if the system was set to recirc or outside air. Don't know how Tesla does their automatic mode but I would select recirc and add defrost if the windows fog.
A good question would be if they heat pump has resistive backup for these extreme temperatures. Also I am interested if either version would have performed better if the recirculate option was turned on so you aren't trying to heat exclusively outside air as air input.
My understanding is it uses the motors to create heat for the heat pump to work. This doesn't require the car to move, but they are able to run the motors without moving the car. Watch the Tesla Deep Freeze video and Kyle explains it a bit.
@@ericroe Ah that's a very clever way to get around having to install another part in the car. Smart engineering like that is what keeps Tesla well ahead of legacy automotive competition. Legacy automakers would put in resistive backup heat or have completely discrete thermal systems for the cabin vs the powertrain, adding weight, complexity, part count, and decreasing reliability and efficiency.
@@taylorlightfoot It is a novel approach, but its very complicated, and we have yet to see what running part of the motor does to increase wear on the motors.
@@ericroe Tesla has been doing this for years now ... if there's a wear effect at all it must be a small one... we would know by now!
I have a Model 3 with a heat pump and here in Norway I have been very pleased with it.
Amazing test. It was very informative. Im curious about the before and after battery percentage. Many props to Alyssa for helping on this test.
I run a parking heater in my VW-Diesel, it heats to 23-24 degrees C within 3-5 Minutes. And a range of 1200km on one tank of fuel, plus it can tow a trailer for much muchlonger than Hoovie with his E-Pickup Truck.
Great work! Thanks for your sacrifice. It would have also been cool to see the new energy graph on the car. But I'm glad the new heat pump works so well in -20° F!
Had to have a temperature sensor replaced in my 2018 Model 3 about 2 months ago. Was already out of warranty so cost me $150 and had to wait for part to be ordered so 2 trips to service center. Wish we had a display in the car for interior temperature without having to look at the phone app. Interesting test ty.
Can you do the test again, but with recirculation mode on for both? That'd make it a much fairer test since the different fan speeds you both used will pull in fresh cold air in at different rates.
Thank you both for sacrificing your comfort and sleep for this video. Good real world information about living with EV's.
Test was invalidated when she took it off auto. Putting it in manual would disable recirculation and give the PTC car a MASSIVE disadvantage. It was literally trying to heat the car using only the outside air while the heat pump was able to use the inside air.
But his car had recirculation mode turned off too? See 8:06.
That's an interesting review especially for those living in the cold. FYI a heat pump has temperature range for use, and generally the best start working above -10°C, below they're not even powered. The heat pump will "spare" consumption of electricity when the car is heated and the temperature outside is between 0°C and car temp setting.
It would be interesting to see how long it would take an assortment of gas and diesel vehicles to reach 70° inside the cabin under the same conditions.
Provided the cars would even start.
@@outbackigloo6489 this
About 10 years ago I had a VW turbodiesel and one morning when it was -15F I drove 20 miles in 35minutes on empty suburban roads (no one else was fool enough to go into work) and the engine didn't even make it to operating temp, let alone give me heat.
My V8 truck takes about 8 minutes when driving in town at these low temps to start getting heat, which means right about the time I get home from dropping the kids off I start getting a little warmth.
In winter, the Tesla is my preferred vehicle to drop kids off because it heats up faster than anything else.
You would have to start driving the cars to have any hope of generating any heat within the first 30 mins.
@@TheSerenation Yeah, so I’ve driven many cars over the last 30 years all being combustion vehicles and I’ve never really had much of an issue, at least nothing compared to waiting for 45 minutes to barely get warm.
Things to know: regardless of heat pumps, cars usually always have a PTC heating unit. They use this to get to the desired temperature fast then switch to the heatpump to keep it while consuming much less power. Short trips may therefore not make a noticeable difference while living no trips will definitely show. Depending on the heatpump, it should be able to operate down to -25C. (Heatpump do not draw their heat from the outside like people think, that’s why it actually working even when it’s cold)
Nice, Great! Roll down the windows while doing the cabin heat test. You could have just recorded the phone app from inside the heated Rivian. Kyle, you also know you put out a lot of HOT air yourself! 😜
That's what I thought!
Alyssa did great! She waited plenty long enough on auto. The heat just can't keep up in extreme cold.
Kyle's car went to 9 on its own
Allyssa's never went above 6
Even though she tried to push it higher it was less effective. Heat pump wins hands down. Great test once again from out of spec!
It may have been able to go up, she never let it heat up so you'll never know. She messed it up playing with it.
They have never changed the cabin air filter in their Model 3; I wonder if extra resistance to air flow caused the fan to ramp down?
Wow. Glad you did this hardcore cold test. By me 35 degrees is pretty cold. And at that temp, the heat pump in my 2022 X is pumping warm air by the time I get 200 feet from my house.
What was the state of charge for each vehicle, both before and after the test?
She said she only had 8% in the PTC car! I bet the HVAC wasn't going full power. Anything below 20% and the car starts to manage energy more efficiently to protect range and battery health.
@@MrAdopado That doesn't sound right, becuase when kyle was sitting in the car with her, he put climate on "keep" when they both got out. If the car was below 20%, you won't get the option to turn on "keep"
@@MrAdopado If you look at the video where Kyle steps in, you can see the center display. It shows the PTC car is at 68% SoC when Kyle gets in.
If you look at the video, it looks like the Heat Pump car starts at 84% SoC, and ends at 76 or 78% SoC... They didn't show what the PTC car started at, but when Kyle steps into it at the end, the display shows the PTC car was sitting at 68% SoC.
Yes, you have your gloves on and you layered some. Glad to see it. Also, not suprized with the HP winning out. At neg 21 with wc my heat pumps were set to 68 on the house and did a great job, with no aux heat activated.
Elements have to cool off at intervals so they don't blow out...anyone who has a wall heater using an element will notice it cycles on and off. Ever notice your older stove eye element having dark spots on it? Yah, they do ware out in time. Toaster elements are the same. HP does not have that issue.
I would rather see you driving for 3-4 hours in 0 Fahrenheit and measure the use of kW. The Opel Ampera-e (Bolt) roughly halved the distance in the winter and it had no heat pump.
I live in Regina, Saskatchewan Canada where we see temperatures in the -40c(-40F) range,(with out the wind). I've only had my 2022 Model Y for 5 months, so far I've driven in -35c temp driving to work, which is 63km away on the highway. My heat pump worked very, very well, drove with temp on 23c and fan speed on 4 without the wind and fan speed 5 with the wind,(windows doesn't get frosted up on fan speed 5 when it's windy). I was concerned based on the experiences of other tesla owners last year with heat loss. So far I'm happy with it.
I have a couple of heat pump furnaces in my house with gas, but they both have electric resistive heat for use at very cold temperatures.
I was wondering if Tesla's also do. If that's the case the heat pump should one be using a lot more power in these extreme conditions.
@@mattwolf7698 The way the Tesla heat pump works when its too cold to get heat from atmosphere (below -10C/14F) is it runs air through the cabin evaporator and cabin condenser, one right after the other.
The heat you get out of it is roughly the same as the amount of energy used when running the compressor - about 5-6kW. Comparable to the PTC.
Its kinda like running a fridge in a tiny room and leaving the door open.
Thx for the test. It would be great to know how much power/battery was affected for each car during the warmup.
How much energy did each one use? Did you look at the energy screen?
Presumably the resistive heater model will draw more outside air in as a proportion of its airflow where as the heat pump model will use more recirculated interior air, as it will be drying the air too. In auto mode the resistive model would soon steam up and be running with moisture if it did not take that into account. So, after a while the heat pump has less work to do as it is just boosting the temp of warmer air. And, yes, a competitive summary of the power used would have been helpful info. Thanks for what you did do though.
I would have LOVED to have a control ICE car of similar size, maybe a BMW 5 series, to see the difference between EVs and gas cars. Maybe next time it's super cold, you can run that test too? Great video and thanks to Alyssa for dealing with Kyle's crazy ideas!
The engine may be frozen sitting around at these temps without a block heater on it going.
@@jbdragon3295eh no, my cars frequently start at -25 degrees F. The oil may thicken and flow more slowly, but it doesn’t freeze and as far as radiator, most water/antifreeze solutions are good down to -40 degrees F.
I had an Acura Integra and if below zero and idling, the engine would not generate enough heat to exceed the heat being removed from the heater core. It would have failed this same test.
@@randycooper6098t really depends a lot on the make and model year. My older cars would have failed miserably just sitting at idle at this temperature, but a lot of newer cars do special things to generate excess waste heat to warm up more quickly in these temperatures today to reduce their emissions (since an engine that’s too cold polutes _a lot_ more pollution than one that’s properly warmed up).
@@randycooper6098 then your Acura had a thermostat issue because any ice engine will produce sufficient heat for the exchanger if properly maintained.
Another variable to consider is the heat pump car also has double pane windows.
Only the front doors. I doubt there is a significant insulating value. Both vehicles were stationary as opposed to moving through 70 mph air.
I think Alyssa did amazing!!! Thank you for braving the cold. She absolutely did what a normal user would have done. As it turns out, I do think the PTC car might have warmed up faster if left on auto. By how much? Probably not enough to beat the heat pump. I just remember my grandmother “Oma” waiting to turn on the heat in her Buick. I always thought she was crazy, but we tested it once and she was right! The car did warm up faster when you left the fan off and waited a few minutes before turning on the fan. It was old and didn’t have auto. My guess is that the tesla was doing the same thing on auto, waiting to ramp the fan until the heater was hot. BTW. I have Model Y 1172. One of the first batches. Ordered it on March 17th, 2020. Took delivery on March 21st, 2020. No idea how I got it in 4 days! My heat pump did fail. I can confirm it was very cold. They had to replace it and there was a firmware update. Works great ever since! Would love to see how long the Rivian takes to heat up from ice cold and how much energy it uses vs Tesla heat pump.
Do you think using recirculating air would make a difference?
Everybody who lives near the arctic circle knows that, let the car run on recycle first. Heat the already heated air and help the heater get hot at the same time.
Yes, that will make a huge difference. Heating 50ºF air vs. -20ºF air. I think Alyssa's car may have been sucking in 100% outside air and Kyles may have been using some recirculated air.
I'm blown away. If I had to put money on this test, I would have bet against the Heat Pump. They just don't typically work well at these crazy low temps. And to think that the heat pump uses almost exactly 1/3 the energy of that resistive heater. That, my friends, is technology at work. I'm really glad I watched this.
Any idea about power consumption between heat pump and ptc? In % or kwh?
PS. Great you’re doing this
From what I have read, While stationary the ptc uses just over 1% per hour, heat pump right at or just under one percent per hour, this is at around 32F though
Kyle left those numbers in a comment if you look. PTC used a couple kW more.
Touch to control the flow of air inside the cabin. Air can be drawn into Model 3 from outside or air can be recirculated inside the cabin.
Nice test. I would have liked to have seen stats about the energy consumption between the two heating methods also, not just the speed of the operation. I'm assuming the Tesla software provides that sort of info too.
PTC used roughly 8kWh
Heat Pump used around 5-6kWh
Not totally accurate measurements but it's as close as we can get
For those that dont know the The term "heat pump" referres to the entire car acting to generate heat from multiple components. Its not a single thing on its own. The system scavenges heat anywhere it can. The humming you hear is just the coolant pump circulating fluid to capture and dump energy.
26:10 go sit in the other car "no", lol
The sensing element is in the rear of those thermometers (I have two). First is the thermometer is not out of the package and looks like the cellophane is still on it. The packaging will make the thermometer lag far behind the true ambient temperature.
Model Y with heat pump did really bad in a Finnish car magazine Tekniikan Maailma's winter car test. It took 17 minutes to reach +15C and it was only -7C outside.
For comparison Kia EV6 reached that temp in 6,5 minutes.
The Model Y could never reach the 23C target temperature while the Mercedes EQA got to 23C only in 9,5 minutes.
Somebody must have gotten a special bonus in their banking account. My Model Y LR goes from much colder, -10F (-23.3C) to 72F (22.2C) in well under 10 minutes in my mid Minnesota area and I always use low fan speeds. Their Model Y couldn't reach 23C? They must have had all the windows open.
@@StormyDog Interesting. Who pays bonuses like that?
Ford Mach-E did really bad too. Could not reach 23C and 15C took 16 minutes.