No Fates Warning ? That band is the pioneer of Progressive Metal. One of the most influential bands of all. The albums Parallels, Perfect Symmetry, Theories Of Flight, Awaken The Guardian. These albums are beasts in Progressive Metal.
Totally agree with you, awaken the guardian was the most influential album at this time, and No Exit is for me the first prog metal album in the history
I guess Im randomly asking but does any of you know a trick to get back into an instagram account..? I somehow lost the account password. I appreciate any help you can give me.
@Mason Rhys I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and I'm trying it out atm. Takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
No Fates Warning? The Spectre Within and Awaken The Guardian are essential, really some of the first heavy prog albums. Arch and Matheos penned masterpieces with time changes, amazing vocals, incredible guitar composition. These guys were one of the forefathers of the genre and deserved at least a mention...
. . . Thank you. BUT, it appears that they decided to put "Perfect Symmetry" afterwards on their Facebook page, so maybe Sam and Dylan decided to give it a listen :).
Agreed. Catchy as Hell prog metal, without the junk that blocks most people from embracing the genre. I know its hated by some (Razorfist for example), but I think it finds a brilliant balance.
Atheist- Elements. Atheist has yet to be discussed on the tree but they undoubtedly sound as fresh now as they ever did, way ahead of their time and criminally underrated. Great short discography but *Elements* is a behemoth!!!! a prog metal must have!
Opeth- Morningrise Mastodon - Blood Mountain Gojira- From Mars to Sirius Tool- Lateralus BTBAM- Great Misdirect Baroness - Yellow and Green Meshuggah- Chaosphere In no certain order are my favorite Prog albums
That Banger shirt is sick... I must buy it now Edit: Thank Jesus Christ Meshuggah snuck in there at the last second. I was honestly about to start crying.
Bands that should be front-runner are : 1.Dream Theater - Images and Words / Scenes from the memory 2.Meshuggah - Destroy Erase Improve / Nothing 3.Queensryche - Operation Midcrime 4.Opeth - Blackwater Park 5. Tool - Lateralus 6. Gojira - The Way of All Flesh 7. Mastodon - Leviathan 8. BTBAM - Parallax II 9. Animals as Leaders - Self Titled 10. Symphony X - The Divine wings of Tragedy Honorable Mention The Dillinger Esc. Plan - Calculating Infinity Fates Warning - Perfect Symmetry Cynic - Focus
Symphony X - The Oddysey?! cmooooon. That one is a no brainer. And also,I prefer Awake over any other DT albums for lots of reasons. It was the last album with LaBrie before he blew his voice out,it was one of the first if not the first to include a heavy 7-string prog element in the songs. And the last point is The Mirror. Fucking love that song.
"Elements" was even more Proggie, but I still prefer "A Questionable Presence" because of the aggression. Cynic "Focus" and "Questionable..." cancel each other out if their brand of Death Metal was not Prog enough though. But both were VERY progressive in a sense that they both were pushing boundaries of Death Metal at that time, and were incorporating Jazz/Fusion (much like Alarum and Mourning Sign), so that was very forward thinking for Metal in 1990 - 93. Cynic were like the Mahavishnu Orchestra of Death Metal :). And yet again, Watchtower was doing it in 89 which was amazing. As far as Tech Death vs Prog Death, I guess we could make the argument that they are different - I just thought both fit under the umbrella of Prog Metal without going into "Technical" sub-genres (Tech-Prog, Tech-Thrash, Death-Fusion, Prog-Death Metal, Math Metal, etc. etc. It starts sounding all made up :p ;).
Thanks guys for responding, have been listening to metal from close to the beginnings of metal...(old metalhead) somehow I have missed Watchtower, will definitely check them out, thanks!!!..the reason I brought up Atheist, in the video they surmised that Cynic had started the whole jazz/fusion metal sound.. I purchased FW No Exit when it first came out and honestly liked it a lot more than Operation Mindcrime from Queensryche...anyhoo, thanks for chiming in guys!
Yeah, after more than 20 years in the prog metal scene, Fates Warning are still very marginal, always playing in small clubs and with an extremely loyal but ever so small fan base. Indicative of this is that they are practically worshiped in small countries, like Greece where they play once a year. Their music is undoubtedly prog and metal with a rock sensitivity that carries lyricism and technicality that have passed down from bands like Marillion and Rush. At the same time, they are in touch with the present and have incorporated Tool and down-tuning evolving and, yes all pun intended, progressing. Cmon lock horns you need to change this list and put one Fates album there.
I have a feeling you may have saw my post at the Fb group "At Fates Hands"? If not . . . Where were you when the show aired!? :D :p Awesome words for FW Phillip. Fates well deserve to play in bigger venues and get TONS of recognition. \m/
Cheers yeah. In France the show airs a little too late for me and I usually watch it the next day from the vault. Great list and all BUT it does reflect the status quo which sees a pioneering band like FW always in the margins.
I understand, plus there were "technical difficulties" during the show and they had to "re-boot" the whole program. I tried my best to get the attention of Sam last night on their Fb page (and messaged them) and wrote an Email as well. I left a version of the "essay" as a comment here too . . . I guess its too much info to read for most people :p. Just trying to get the word out there on the bands that shaped Prog Metal and became its foundation. Hopefully people will check them out. Seems a few people here are speaking out for them and Watchtower :). Take care Phillip!
Protest the Hero has been my favorite band for 12 years now. I've seen them three times, and I can confidently say that they were the band that got me entirely into prog over anything else. From there, I branched directly to Between the Buried and Me. Prog über alles.
I'm surprised there was no mention of Savatage or Fates Warning. King diamond and Savatage put out "concept" album long before Queensryche. I'm not saying the albums mentioned aren't great but if we're talking essential albums then Awaken The Guardian or Spectre Within from Fates warning should certainly be in there. It's just my opinion.
Umm no Fates Warning Spectre Within or Awaken the Guardian 85' and 86' ? Very strong argument can be made that Prog Metal really started with this band. Rush started as a Led Zep blues based hard rock clone band and then moved into the "prog hard rock" arena and cast the mold for bands like Crimson Glory, Queensryche, Fates, Dream Theater. The fact that Fates is overlooked here is criminal
Old Post but couldn't resist commenting..I agree with you about Fates warning being the first Prog metal band..Queensryche Rage for Order was more progressive than OMC..Crimson Glory,Savatage ,Apochrypha ..NEVERMORE made great prog metal . My fav
I love that these episodes get uploaded by the time I head home from work at 5am (on my Friday no less), and I have a long enough drive to listen to the whole thing!
IMO the ground zero of prog metal is Rush’s 2112 album. I know Rush would be considered more of a hard rock band with progressive tendencies but 2112 was the blueprint and the starting point for progressive metal much like Black Sabbath’s debut was the beginning of heavy metal.
The same year Cynic's Focus came out, Pestilence released Spheres with a similar musical approach. it has a lots of progressive elements, technical jazzy solos, complex melody structures, traces of death metal. A truly unique masterpiece! One of the most underrated metal albums of all time! Atheist should've been up there in the board too!
It's quite hard to form a concrete list for any genre representation/essential listening, but not having Fates Warning is a little tough to accept; however, I very much appreciate the list fellas. Great effort! I would recommend SAVIOUR MACHINE for further listening, especially the 1997 Legend pt:1 cause that album articulates the Dark Gothic, Neo Classical progressive Metal movement and the start of one of the best conceptual and layered albums this planet has to offer. A defining moment indeed! Psychotic Waltz's 1989's " A Social Grace. " huge lift for prog metal.
Without watching yet, my own personal top 10, albums I listen to all the time, can just pick up and never stop, completely biased and can totally agree some of these will be "controversial" to some people, Colors - BtBaM Focus - Cynic Blood Mountain - Mastodon Mars to Sirius - Gojira Symbolic - Death Bilateral - Leprous Imaginary Sonicsape - Sigh Edge of Sanity - Crimson Operation Mindcrime - QueensRyche The really controversial one: Volition - Protest the Hero
I have never considered myself a prog metal fan but.... after seeing this show I really don't know what to think about. I love most of the bands that have been mentioned: Gojira, Tool, Mastodon, Meshuggah, Cynic, Death are some of my favourite of all time. And even if I'm not a big fan of Dream Theater, Images and words and Metropolis II are the albums I like the most from this band. I also like Operation:Mindcrime even if I have to admit it's the only Queensryche album I've ever listened to. So, it turned out I may like proggy stuff, thanks Sam!
Great discussion. There will always be something left out and a high degree of subjectivity but I do agree that both Control and Resistance and Awaken the Guardian deserve mention although their notoriety is perhaps not as far reaching as many of the groups on the essentials list. Ron Jarzombek should be on a list of mind boggling talent that was not given his due.
I think Pain of Salvation could be on the list, I think they influenced a new generation and are one of the bands responsible for a reboot of the genre.. perhaps Remedy Lane or The perfect element part I..
How does Watchtower not belong on the list? I can understand Rush, but I'm curious what he/you would consider not Prog Metal about Watchtower? Is it that's it's more Tech than Prog?
As much as I appreciated this, I don't understand how Meshuggah came up that late. They influenced a whole new wave of prog metal bands including Periphery and Animals as Leaders (both of which you mentioned as presently becoming influential). While they are not featuring a classical prog metal sound, they are the definition of "progressive". I mean the time signatures, 8string guitars, polyrhythms etc. I don't really get how you could nearly forget about them.
People who argue Tool isn't metal probably don't deserve to have an opinion on the subject of metal. You don't need to be a balls-to-the-wall aggressive band to be metal, and Tool certainly has the heavy riffs and complex rhythm section to qualify as metal. Hell, Opiate and Undertow are full-on metallic Grunge, like a heavier Alice in Chains.
agree this is shit they are fanboys and they want their opinions on the board sam fucking dunn can't breathe without mastodon or devin t etc what do you expect?
@@Brunetto46 yeah man these discussions are so narrow minded .they are metal hipsters ..FATES WARNING were the heavier more progressive version of Maiden and Queensryche ..They waved the flag of progressive metal starting with Spectre within back in 1985. Night on Brocken was more straight ahead Metal
Fortress is the SHIT, I was blown away the first time I heard Bloodmeat and that album hasn’t aged a day, it sounds fresh as ever. Hard edged and glorious.
I remember when I heard Fate Warning's "A Pleasant Shade of Gray" for the first time... Such an excellent album and so underrated. Still consider it to be one of the best of the genre.
Got lost and couldn't get back in. But my two cents were "The 1985 debut album "Energetic Disassembly" by Texas band Watchtower needs to be mentioned. They came onto the scene with a bold progressive technical sound at a time when thrash was all about speed." I guess they were left out?
But I think Control and Resistance (1989) is the album where they found their voice. But yes, they should have been at the top along with Fates Warning.
Everyone keeps mentioning Death and their last 4 albums, but what about "Control Denied"? That was his attempt at Tech-Prog Metal :). Sad, we almost had a 2nd album :(.
I would not include Gojira as part of the old guard. However, there are some recent albums (from both new and older bands) which I think will be hugely influential for future bands: ● Empath (Devin Townsend) ● From Mars to Sirius (Gojira) ● Heritage (Opeth) ● In Cauda Venenum (Opeth) ● In the Passing Light of Day (Pain of Salvation) ● L'Enfant Sauvage (Gojira) ● Lykaia (Soen) ● Lotus (Soen) ● Ziltoid the Omniscient (Devin Townsend)
Thats awesome :D. Keep in mind too that for a time, it was the ONLY album they made other than the previous demos. And 2 members were on the Death "Human" album. So it was a HUGE deal when they came back together for "Traced in Air": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traced_in_Air Now checkout Watchtower and Fates Warning's catalogue ;).
sure, but isn't there a way of writing it after the "show more" in the description? Thing is it's hard to go back to the list after you've watched the video, you gotta skip around. The alternative could be a time stamp to the final reading, maybe?
The "80's" style vocals aren't my favorite, but I saw DT live in Albany last week and I highly recommend them as a live band, 2 plus hour show and a 24 minute 1 song encore and mangini and petrucci are worth the $.
Nobody is repping Watershed??? so many moments brought me back to King Crimson days. Either way Opeth's album that everyone knows and probably cause the most influence among metal heads is blackwater park.
BTBAM got their band name from a Counting Crows song.That's probably were the non metal influences stuff comes into play. They were even featured on a Counting Crows tribute album. Another awesome Prog band that was not mentioned is Umphrey's McGee. They mix a lot of different style to create the bands sound. What makes them different from all of the other bands mentioned is that while being a Prog band they are also a Jamband. In concert they improvise and weave in and out of different songs without skipping a beat. In my opinion they are one of the best live bands around. The music is super tight and the light show is also not to be missed.
I love Umphreys McGee. I acquired the taste for jammy stuff like the Dead years ago ( partially due to psychedelic revelations and inner revolutions), so I always looked for bands to sorta link the jam stuff I dig to the heavy stuff I always loved. I had a couple that kinda did it in my repertoire of favorites, Govn't Mule comes to mind, but then a friend sent a link to a video of an Umphrey's jam where they suddenly launch into Raining Blood, and fuckin' nailed it. Fan for life.
Favorite prog metal albums (1 per band counting only bands who's catalogue is mainly prog metal. I think BTBAM, Meshuggah and Gojira are way more than prog metal. As for Tool, although it's one of my favorite bands, I never really looked at them as a metal band) 10) Sadist - Hyena 09) Queensryche - Rage For Order 08) Aghora - Formless 07) Alchemist - Trypsis 06) Opeth - Still Life 05) Mastodon - Blood Mountain 04) Ihsahn - Eremita 03) Voivod - Dimension Hatross 02) Cynic - Traced In Air 01) Devin Toownsend - Infinity
Just jumped into the previous Prog live stream because I Was so surprised to see you miss Pain Of Salvation and Ayreon, mostly the first because you can argue about the fact of Ayreon being a solo project. But Pain Of Salvation?! C´MON!!!
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, And Justice For All & Seventh Son of a Seventh Son should all three be there. Thats Proto Prog Metal. Hugely influential for the first wave.
I think Leviathan being there covers that sub genre of sludgy prog metal. I don't think you need both Mastodon and Baroness listed. And since Leviathan came out three years earlier, it should get the nod. But a mention in passing would have been nice.
I bought Mindcrime about a year after it came out. I couldn't believe it. Then their next record came out and it was ok, but was not close to MC. With what was going on at the time they had huge balls for doing that record. I will say this though, I don't think it's really a PROG record. It has elements at times, but you could say Queen was PROG then? No? Yes.
Couldn't agree more on the band. Now... regarding the album. It is really hard! In terms of being totally different and groundbreaking I should have to go with Be. A tale of creation from start to finish, with a unique structure and soudscape. But yes, from Remedy Lane on, all of their albums are pure genius!
Regarding Dream Theater: SFAM was a return to form album after Falling Into Infinity's misstep. Awake was the album that cemented the METAL in their progressive sound. I&W and Awake belong on the board. Fates Warning was big in terms of influence in circles "in the know", so they never found a large audience like DT did. Also, their albums had some great tracks but weren't solid from start to finish. Perfect Symmetry and Parallels had some of their best output. Atheist belongs with Elements. Prog-jazz-thrash fusion. Hugely influential and mind-blowing at the time. source: I was there. Yes, I'm old.
I'm old too :). Agree with just about all you said. "Awake" would be my fave DT album, but "Images and Words" I think is the one that helped start the 3rd wave of Prog Metal, with the slew of bands that followed.
In general I agree with most of the discussion and specially with Voivod (fucking finally) They made music so fucking ahead of their time that only to recent years we see their influence. That is something only Voivod did as far as I'm concern (side note I can't believe that Banger being a Canadian show doesn't give that much love to Voidod). But things I wanna argued about (I wish to do this on the live stream but it's just too fucking early for me): 1) Tool: Amazing band every year that goes by without a new Tool record I fucking hate them. I cant wait to hear the new record if it's ever coming out. But I will argue that Tool is not a metal band and the fact that they are love for every single metal head doesn't make them a metal. And I think that's the reason they don't fit any category but they are so damn good that maybe just maybe we all wish them to be a metal band. 2) Gojira: As much as a I love Gojira... Can somebody tell me what is prog about any Gojira record? Gojira is great. Period. It's a fun band to headbang and great on stage but I do understand why many people think they are one of the most overrated band. The media and the fans like to tag them as prog metal or as tech death metal.... Just to see the show argue that Gojira's album (not sure which - to prove my point they just bring Gojira on board just because fans love them but no case for any album) could be equally important to DT's Ocean Machine or Enslaved's Isa --- sorry Gojira is nowhere close to either of those in terms of technicality or influence in pushing the boundaries of any genre. I am gonna say this and get lots of hate but Gojira as cool and nice as they are - they are just a ordinary groove metal with some technical touches here and there maybe?. We ALL LOVE but that I don't think they are that special as other bands other than being more popular. So I ask again: What is it that Gojira brought to metal that wasn't there already to make it a prog metal? I will argue not much if nothing as opposed to all the rest of the bands on this episode.
Trying to get into more metal and this essential album thing is perfect. Because of this show alone I've got operation:mindcrime and black water park. Both are fucking awesome
My top 4 Essential Prog Metal Albums. #1 Crack the Skye by Mastodon #2 Mariner by Cult of Luna ft Julie Christmas #3 Master of Puppets by Metallica #4 L'Enfant Sauvage by Gojira
Pretty accurate selection when considering the impact/influence factor. However I also miss Fates Warning and Atheist, as daycare62 says. More names that could've been considered are Nocturnus (The Key), Pestilence (Spheres) and the (as usual) overlooked Martyr. I'm not very sure about Obscura, Beyond Creation, Rivers of Nihil, Vektor and others ... maybe these bands are not considered because of being too recent ? Besides that, I think that some Rush and Iron Maiden albums (or at least some songs) should be regarded as essential influence and/or inspiration.
If y'all considered putting Crack the Skye on the list, which came out in 2009, then Periphery's first album should be on there. I'm not a big fan of Periphery, but they've become incredibly influential in a short amount of time and definitely deserve to be on the list.
Haha - that was my comment as well. People kept mentioning the 3-4 later Death Albums and Cynic, but everyone forgets Chuck's Tech-Prog Metal album :P.
Tim Aymar had a ripping metal Vox on the Control Denied material ..Fragile art of existence had the most original sound .. Definitely needed that album when it came out..
W T F !!!! Watchtower or Fates Warning should of been the Legend !!! Fates Warning's No Exit !!! Like Seriously WTF No Ivory Gate Of Dreams No Change Of Seasons
I think they did a really good job showing many different facets of prog metal. Sure, the most influential were probably all the early ones but they also all sound rather similar and would entirely disregard a lot of the variety in sound that prog offers today.
not too surprised; Pain of Salvation, Fates Warning, maudlin of the Well and SikTh are nowhere to be found. Also Burst (whose album "Lazarus Bird" I find better than any album Mastodon ever made) and Green Carnation's "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" are sadly not even in the spectrum of this list. That being said, the list is decent, although I don't care for Tool nor most Meshuggah, but instead of 10, this list probably could have been a Top 20 or 25.
Yet another prog metal discussion without a single mention of Protest the Hero? Damn... They deserve to be part of this for two reasons : They are the biggest Canadian metal band currently active and while their music is REALLY different, I would put their discography in the same category as Tool's. What I mean by that is that every release they have put out is a favorite among a certain portion of the fanbase, and the reason for that is because they seriously haven't put out a single bad release. Each one is different from the previous, explores new ground, tries new instrumentation, new production techniques, etc. and more importantly, each one of them is really fucking good from start to finish. Scurrilous is probably their black sheep but it was my favorite album of theirs before Volition came out, and is still a favorite among certain fans. There's a legitimate case to be made about Kezia being a landmark in the genre, when prog metal finally met punk. Same thing with Fortress, when prog metal met mathcore and also its lyrical content is probably the best conceptual album in the entire genre. Scurrilous for its unique blend of relentless riff-based melodies, and technical vocals (Rody Walker became a new man between album 2 and 3). Volition for its sheer scale, execution and production. And even the Pacific Myth EP for its new approach and (subtle) style change. And, as if you needed another reason, they work with the best visual artists in the business and their cover arts are majestic. Next time you talk about prog metal, please do everyone a favor and at least acknowledge these guys' existence?
No Fates Warning ? That band is the pioneer of Progressive Metal. One of the most influential bands of all. The albums Parallels, Perfect Symmetry, Theories Of Flight, Awaken The Guardian. These albums are beasts in Progressive Metal.
No exit also
Totally agree with you, awaken the guardian was the most influential album at this time, and No Exit is for me the first prog metal album in the history
I think we can all agree that prog isn't a subgenre that can really be narrowed down to ten albums since it's gone in so many different directions
Top 50! And WE will STILL be arguing :p. But hey, even Lisa said we were all pretty "civil" :).
(Lisa's syncopated/poly-rhythmic cow bell).
I guess Im randomly asking but does any of you know a trick to get back into an instagram account..?
I somehow lost the account password. I appreciate any help you can give me.
@Nash Forrest Instablaster ;)
@Mason Rhys I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and I'm trying it out atm.
Takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
@Mason Rhys it did the trick and I now got access to my account again. I am so happy:D
Thanks so much you saved my account!
No Fates Warning? The Spectre Within and Awaken The Guardian are essential, really some of the first heavy prog albums. Arch and Matheos penned masterpieces with time changes, amazing vocals, incredible guitar composition. These guys were one of the forefathers of the genre and deserved at least a mention...
. . . Thank you.
BUT, it appears that they decided to put "Perfect Symmetry" afterwards on their Facebook page, so maybe Sam and Dylan decided to give it a listen :).
Yes. Amazing omission. They are some of the progenitors of Prog Metal! Every album.
definitely more prog than Queensryche
Fates warning’s “No Exit” and watchtower’s “Control and resistance” are the first true prog metal albums in my eyes.
My favourite metal genre, but I can't help but think that Maiden's Seventh Son album is one of the first prog metal releases.
51:38
Agreed. Catchy as Hell prog metal, without the junk that blocks most people from embracing the genre. I know its hated by some (Razorfist for example), but I think it finds a brilliant balance.
Fates Warning. One of the progenitors of Prog Metal, along with DT. How the hell are they not on the list? This was late 80s and they were doing it!
Waaaaaaay better than Queensryche and the same time. Queensryche only sold more albums thats all.
Atheist- Elements. Atheist has yet to be discussed on the tree but they undoubtedly sound as fresh now as they ever did, way ahead of their time and criminally underrated. Great short discography but *Elements* is a behemoth!!!! a prog metal must have!
Opeth- Morningrise
Mastodon - Blood Mountain
Gojira- From Mars to Sirius
Tool- Lateralus
BTBAM- Great Misdirect
Baroness - Yellow and Green
Meshuggah- Chaosphere
In no certain order are my favorite Prog albums
That Banger shirt is sick... I must buy it now
Edit: Thank Jesus Christ Meshuggah snuck in there at the last second. I was honestly about to start crying.
Don't cry Lucas!
Lucas T lol same I was looking for Meshuggah
Bands that should be front-runner are :
1.Dream Theater - Images and Words / Scenes from the memory
2.Meshuggah - Destroy Erase Improve / Nothing
3.Queensryche - Operation Midcrime
4.Opeth - Blackwater Park
5. Tool - Lateralus
6. Gojira - The Way of All Flesh
7. Mastodon - Leviathan
8. BTBAM - Parallax II
9. Animals as Leaders - Self Titled
10. Symphony X - The Divine wings of Tragedy
Honorable Mention
The Dillinger Esc. Plan - Calculating Infinity
Fates Warning - Perfect Symmetry
Cynic - Focus
Love it! A bit of where it all started along with the new :).
Andy Gray Parallax duo i think should be counted as one, their both as good as each other
Be, from Pain Of Salvation?.. Ayreon, The Human Equation... In Absentia, Porcupine Tree... There is so much good stuff that is essential.
Solid list you got there, you know your stuff.
I think AAL's two last albums are wayyyyy better that the first two!
In modern Prog Metal, you MUST talk about Haken's The Mountain. Definitely one of the best Prog Metal albums released in the last decade or so.
Symphony X - The Oddysey?! cmooooon. That one is a no brainer. And also,I prefer Awake over any other DT albums for lots of reasons. It was the last album with LaBrie before he blew his voice out,it was one of the first if not the first to include a heavy 7-string prog element in the songs. And the last point is The Mirror. Fucking love that song.
no Fates Warning?..dang...Athiest predates Cynic by a decade!
Watchtower "Control and Resistance" also came out in 1989, and in 1988 Fates Warning with "No Exit" :).
Atheist is generally seen as the start of Tech Death, not Prog Death. I agree there are some Prog elements in Atheist.
"Elements" was even more Proggie, but I still prefer "A Questionable Presence" because of the aggression.
Cynic "Focus" and "Questionable..." cancel each other out if their brand of Death Metal was not Prog enough though. But both were VERY progressive in a sense that they both were pushing boundaries of Death Metal at that time, and were incorporating Jazz/Fusion (much like Alarum and Mourning Sign), so that was very forward thinking for Metal in 1990 - 93. Cynic were like the Mahavishnu Orchestra of Death Metal :).
And yet again, Watchtower was doing it in 89 which was amazing. As far as Tech Death vs Prog Death, I guess we could make the argument that they are different - I just thought both fit under the umbrella of Prog Metal without going into "Technical" sub-genres (Tech-Prog, Tech-Thrash, Death-Fusion, Prog-Death Metal, Math Metal, etc. etc. It starts sounding all made up :p ;).
Drummer_Jez -
. . . and its fusion of pepper, sandwiches, oregano with a hint of show tunes of the 1920's (and Dinah Shore).
Thanks guys for responding, have been listening to metal from close to the beginnings of metal...(old metalhead) somehow I have missed Watchtower, will definitely check them out, thanks!!!..the reason I brought up Atheist, in the video they surmised that Cynic had started the whole jazz/fusion metal sound.. I purchased FW No Exit when it first came out and honestly liked it a lot more than Operation Mindcrime from Queensryche...anyhoo, thanks for chiming in guys!
Yeah, after more than 20 years in the prog metal scene, Fates Warning are still very marginal, always playing in small clubs and with an extremely loyal but ever so small fan base. Indicative of this is that they are practically worshiped in small countries, like Greece where they play once a year. Their music is undoubtedly prog and metal with a rock sensitivity that carries lyricism and technicality that have passed down from bands like Marillion and Rush. At the same time, they are in touch with the present and have incorporated Tool and down-tuning evolving and, yes all pun intended, progressing. Cmon lock horns you need to change this list and put one Fates album there.
I have a feeling you may have saw my post at the Fb group "At Fates Hands"? If not . . .
Where were you when the show aired!? :D :p
Awesome words for FW Phillip. Fates well deserve to play in bigger venues and get TONS of recognition.
\m/
Cheers yeah. In France the show airs a little too late for me and I usually watch it the next day from the vault. Great list and all BUT it does reflect the status quo which sees a pioneering band like FW always in the margins.
I understand, plus there were "technical difficulties" during the show and they had to "re-boot" the whole program. I tried my best to get the attention of Sam last night on their Fb page (and messaged them) and wrote an Email as well. I left a version of the "essay" as a comment here too . . . I guess its too much info to read for most people :p.
Just trying to get the word out there on the bands that shaped Prog Metal and became its foundation. Hopefully people will check them out. Seems a few people here are speaking out for them and Watchtower :).
Take care Phillip!
Crimson by Edge of Sanity.
Some of us tried :(. Sam and Dylan really need to checkout/refresh their memory on the album.
Your icon masigibanica is my fave Marillion album :).
Protest the Hero has been my favorite band for 12 years now. I've seen them three times, and I can confidently say that they were the band that got me entirely into prog over anything else. From there, I branched directly to Between the Buried and Me. Prog über alles.
I'm surprised there was no mention of Savatage or Fates Warning. King diamond and Savatage put out "concept" album long before Queensryche. I'm not saying the albums mentioned aren't great but if we're talking essential albums then Awaken The Guardian or Spectre Within from Fates warning should certainly be in there. It's just my opinion.
Umm no Fates Warning Spectre Within or Awaken the Guardian 85' and 86' ? Very strong argument can be made that Prog Metal really started with this band. Rush started as a Led Zep blues based hard rock clone band and then moved into the "prog hard rock" arena and cast the mold for bands like Crimson Glory, Queensryche, Fates, Dream Theater. The fact that Fates is overlooked here is criminal
Old Post but couldn't resist commenting..I agree with you about Fates warning being the first Prog metal band..Queensryche Rage for
Order was more progressive
than OMC..Crimson Glory,Savatage ,Apochrypha ..NEVERMORE made great prog metal . My fav
Celtic Frost "Into the Pandemonium" - I bought this album in 1987 and that was incredible very different from everything i´d heard before. amazing
I would say that even some Death albums (the ones after and including Human) were pretty proggy
FSPRSTM The sound of perseverance could definitely be here
I love that these episodes get uploaded by the time I head home from work at 5am (on my Friday no less), and I have a long enough drive to listen to the whole thing!
IMO the ground zero of prog metal is Rush’s 2112 album. I know Rush would be considered more of a hard rock band with progressive tendencies but 2112 was the blueprint and the starting point for progressive metal much like Black Sabbath’s debut was the beginning of heavy metal.
Fates Warning specifically the perfect symmetry album should be mentioned.
EXACTLY :(.
The same year Cynic's Focus came out, Pestilence released Spheres with a similar musical approach. it has a lots of progressive elements, technical jazzy solos, complex melody structures, traces of death metal. A truly unique masterpiece! One of the most underrated metal albums of all time! Atheist should've been up there in the board too!
Gorka Pernas Absolutely agree with you! Pestilence Spheres is a masterpiece...
It's quite hard to form a concrete list for any genre representation/essential listening, but not having Fates Warning is a little tough to accept; however, I very much appreciate the list fellas. Great effort!
I would recommend SAVIOUR MACHINE for further listening, especially the 1997 Legend pt:1 cause that album articulates the Dark Gothic, Neo Classical progressive Metal movement and the start of one of the best conceptual and layered albums this planet has to offer. A defining moment indeed!
Psychotic Waltz's 1989's " A Social Grace. " huge lift for prog metal.
I like this dude, very honest, not afraid to say he likes something most people don't. Great guest, clearly knows and loves prog,
No Symphony X or Fates Warning?!
Symphony X is my favorite band, and Michael Romeo the most underrated guitarist in metal.
Opeth ! My favorite band, it is very difficult to chose their best album: "My arms your hearse",
"Black water park", "Ghost reveries"...
Without watching yet, my own personal top 10, albums I listen to all the time, can just pick up and never stop, completely biased and can totally agree some of these will be "controversial" to some people,
Colors - BtBaM
Focus - Cynic
Blood Mountain - Mastodon
Mars to Sirius - Gojira
Symbolic - Death
Bilateral - Leprous
Imaginary Sonicsape - Sigh
Edge of Sanity - Crimson
Operation Mindcrime - QueensRyche
The really controversial one: Volition - Protest the Hero
I have never considered myself a prog metal fan but.... after seeing this show I really don't know what to think about. I love most of the bands that have been mentioned: Gojira, Tool, Mastodon, Meshuggah, Cynic, Death are some of my favourite of all time. And even if I'm not a big fan of Dream Theater, Images and words and Metropolis II are the albums I like the most from this band. I also like Operation:Mindcrime even if I have to admit it's the only Queensryche album I've ever listened to. So, it turned out I may like proggy stuff, thanks Sam!
the longest episode of lock horns. how very prog of you \,,/
Lots of tempo changes too 👍😉
Great discussion. There will always be something left out and a high degree of subjectivity but I do agree that both Control and Resistance and Awaken the Guardian deserve mention although their notoriety is perhaps not as far reaching as many of the groups on the essentials list. Ron Jarzombek should be on a list of mind boggling talent that was not given his due.
You got my vote :).
I think Pain of Salvation could be on the list, I think they influenced a new generation and are one of the bands responsible for a reboot of the genre.. perhaps Remedy Lane or The perfect element part I..
Anything by Ron Jarzombek deserves to be up on the list, for instance, The Machinations of Dementia by Blotted Science.
How does Watchtower not belong on the list? I can understand Rush, but I'm curious what he/you would consider not Prog Metal about Watchtower? Is it that's it's more Tech than Prog?
"Second life Syndrome" by Riverside is one of my favourites.
As much as I appreciated this, I don't understand how Meshuggah came up that late. They influenced a whole new wave of prog metal bands including Periphery and Animals as Leaders (both of which you mentioned as presently becoming influential). While they are not featuring a classical prog metal sound, they are the definition of "progressive". I mean the time signatures, 8string guitars, polyrhythms etc. I don't really get how you could nearly forget about them.
No Symphony X, Fates Warning, Savatage??? Baroness??
when you make your metal album about whales you automatically become proggy, love from Mars to Sirius
you don't. See Ahab.
One of the best debuts of all time.
And don't forget Leviathan, though I don't think it's as proggy as people say.
People who argue Tool isn't metal probably don't deserve to have an opinion on the subject of metal. You don't need to be a balls-to-the-wall aggressive band to be metal, and Tool certainly has the heavy riffs and complex rhythm section to qualify as metal. Hell, Opiate and Undertow are full-on metallic Grunge, like a heavier Alice in Chains.
Agree to disagree
Not metal, but full Prog. Mote like hard rock in the grunge tradition. But completly King Crimson.
very disappointed no mention to Fates Warning. How is it possible that FA not even a mention...
. . . :(.
agree this is shit they are fanboys and they want their opinions on the board sam fucking dunn can't breathe without mastodon or devin t etc what do you expect?
@@Brunetto46 yeah man these discussions are so narrow minded .they are metal hipsters ..FATES WARNING were the heavier more progressive version of Maiden and Queensryche ..They waved the flag of progressive metal starting with Spectre within back in 1985. Night on Brocken was more straight ahead Metal
Though I don’t see their influence in many bands (for now at least) Protest the Hero’s Fortress is an essential one for me.
Fortress is the SHIT, I was blown away the first time I heard Bloodmeat and that album hasn’t aged a day, it sounds fresh as ever. Hard edged and glorious.
I just want let y'all thank you for teaching more about metal music because It okay learn other bands from other parts of the world
I remember when I heard Fate Warning's "A Pleasant Shade of Gray" for the first time... Such an excellent album and so underrated. Still consider it to be one of the best of the genre.
Would love to see an atmoblack episode. Either top albums or maybe even some sort of short discussion.
Threshold should've been on here somewhere. Particularly their album 'Subsurface'. As should Pain of Salvation's 'The Perfect Element'.
100% AGREED
No Remedy Lane? Also if you're gonna put cynic, you gotta put up Athiest's unquestionable presence.
Atheist covers the tech death style more, which isn't necessarily progressive.
I was surprised Pain of Salvation wasn't mentioned while Leaviathan (not really a "prog" album) was included.
YES!!! Pain of Salvation should totally be on here!
Got lost and couldn't get back in. But my two cents were "The 1985 debut album "Energetic Disassembly" by Texas band Watchtower needs to be mentioned. They came onto the scene with a bold progressive technical sound at a time when thrash was all about speed." I guess they were left out?
But I think Control and Resistance (1989) is the album where they found their voice. But yes, they should have been at the top along with Fates Warning.
mvunit3 True, but 1985 is waay early for being a progressive metal album. They should have been on the board either way.
Plus! They obviously influenced a lot of other metal musicians. Chuck of Death being the obvious one but also bands like Mekong Delta.
Oh heck yeah, very much so. Grew up with all those bands when they were "new" :).
Everyone keeps mentioning Death and their last 4 albums, but what about "Control Denied"? That was his attempt at Tech-Prog Metal :). Sad, we almost had a 2nd album :(.
I would not include Gojira as part of the old guard.
However, there are some recent albums (from both new and older bands) which I think will be hugely influential for future bands:
● Empath (Devin Townsend)
● From Mars to Sirius (Gojira)
● Heritage (Opeth)
● In Cauda Venenum (Opeth)
● In the Passing Light of Day (Pain of Salvation)
● L'Enfant Sauvage (Gojira)
● Lykaia (Soen)
● Lotus (Soen)
● Ziltoid the Omniscient (Devin Townsend)
I am listening to Cynic for the first time this morning. I'm not sure how this band/album slipped by me for the last 24 years.
Thats awesome :D. Keep in mind too that for a time, it was the ONLY album they made other than the previous demos. And 2 members were on the Death "Human" album. So it was a HUGE deal when they came back together for "Traced in Air": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traced_in_Air
Now checkout Watchtower and Fates Warning's catalogue ;).
BTBAM Parallax my favorite album of all time
Guys I love the show but it would really help if you would put the final list in the description of the video ;)
thanks
We could do that! (Wouldn't that be a spoiler though?)
sure, but isn't there a way of writing it after the "show more" in the description? Thing is it's hard to go back to the list after you've watched the video, you gotta skip around.
The alternative could be a time stamp to the final reading, maybe?
Put it on your website
@@BangerTV it could very well save us an hour of our lives if we're not interested/ disagree with the content*
No Savatage, Fates Warning or Symphony X.... Scandalous.
underprepared week
I'm surprised Streets:A Rock Opera didn't get any love.
im a big prog metal fan but i never liked queensryche and/or dream theater
Same. I even go so far as I cant stand Dream Theatre.
I'm with you. However, in terms of influence, I'd still agree they belong even if I wouldn't necessarily want to listen to them.
ye no question, i would not try to deminish their influence
Listen to Queensryche's self-titled EP. It's USPM, but it's fucking incredible.
The "80's" style vocals aren't my favorite, but I saw DT live in Albany last week and I highly recommend them as a live band, 2 plus hour show and a 24 minute 1 song encore and mangini and petrucci are worth the $.
Thanks for the best Lock Horns Yet. I love this show
Where is Ihsahn?Any album?
angL is awesome!
Nobody is repping Watershed??? so many moments brought me back to King Crimson days. Either way Opeth's album that everyone knows and probably cause the most influence among metal heads is blackwater park.
no fates warning.... damn shame..
Jeremy Forsyth i feel you man.. fates warning deserves to be up there.
Hell, they deserve TONS of recognition :(.
Suggestion - make playlists for Spotify from each episode!
I find your lack of Symphony X disturbing.
Sooo bummed I always have to miss the live episodes. I hope somebody mentioned Psychotic Waltz.
Confessor-Condemned. Felt compelled to blurt that out.
BTBAM got their band name from a Counting Crows song.That's probably were the non metal influences stuff comes into play. They were even featured on a Counting Crows tribute album.
Another awesome Prog band that was not mentioned is Umphrey's McGee. They mix a lot of different style to create the bands sound. What makes them different from all of the other bands mentioned is that while being a Prog band they are also a Jamband. In concert they improvise and weave in and out of different songs without skipping a beat. In my opinion they are one of the best live bands around. The music is super tight and the light show is also not to be missed.
I love Umphreys McGee. I acquired the taste for jammy stuff like the Dead years ago ( partially due to psychedelic revelations and inner revolutions), so I always looked for bands to sorta link the jam stuff I dig to the heavy stuff I always loved. I had a couple that kinda did it in my repertoire of favorites, Govn't Mule comes to mind, but then a friend sent a link to a video of an Umphrey's jam where they suddenly launch into Raining Blood, and fuckin' nailed it. Fan for life.
When will y'all bring this back?! We want more Lock Horns! I mean c'mon we haven't even done the Essential Albums of Iron Maiden! This can not stand 😢
BANGER i think you guys should do a essential thrash album episode
Anyone else think the first 4 Opeth albums are the best?
Favorite prog metal albums (1 per band counting only bands who's catalogue is mainly prog metal. I think BTBAM, Meshuggah and Gojira are way more than prog metal. As for Tool, although it's one of my favorite bands, I never really looked at them as a metal band)
10) Sadist - Hyena
09) Queensryche - Rage For Order
08) Aghora - Formless
07) Alchemist - Trypsis
06) Opeth - Still Life
05) Mastodon - Blood Mountain
04) Ihsahn - Eremita
03) Voivod - Dimension Hatross
02) Cynic - Traced In Air
01) Devin Toownsend - Infinity
Just jumped into the previous Prog live stream because I Was so surprised to see you miss Pain Of Salvation and Ayreon, mostly the first because you can argue about the fact of Ayreon being a solo project. But Pain Of Salvation?! C´MON!!!
Operation Mindcrime and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son in my opinion are the best concept albums ever.
Agreed. Going to have to pickup Operation Mindcrime...
Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is fantastic.
Brandon Atkinson I'm not sure which I like better
To not include Fates Warning or Symphony X is just a disgrace!
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, And Justice For All & Seventh Son of a Seventh Son should all three be there. Thats Proto Prog Metal. Hugely influential for the first wave.
Baroness - Red Album should have at least been mentioned.
I think Leviathan being there covers that sub genre of sludgy prog metal. I don't think you need both Mastodon and Baroness listed. And since Leviathan came out three years earlier, it should get the nod. But a mention in passing would have been nice.
thank god i was searching for this vid and finally found it again!
I bought Mindcrime about a year after it came out. I couldn't believe it. Then their next record came out and it was ok, but was not close to MC. With what was going on at the time they had huge balls for doing that record. I will say this though, I don't think it's really a PROG record. It has elements at times, but you could say Queen was PROG then? No? Yes.
No mentions to Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane ?
Couldn't agree more on the band. Now... regarding the album. It is really hard! In terms of being totally different and groundbreaking I should have to go with Be. A tale of creation from start to finish, with a unique structure and soudscape. But yes, from Remedy Lane on, all of their albums are pure genius!
I was getting unbelieveably worried that Messuggahs Destroy Erase Improve wasn't going to make the list until the last second
OM is by far the legendary prog metal album....another favorite is hittman self title debut in 88
I thought you meant Om the stoner metal band for a hot minute there
I fucking love this channel!
So strange, where is Shadow Gallery, Symphony X?
Regarding Dream Theater: SFAM was a return to form album after Falling Into Infinity's misstep. Awake was the album that cemented the METAL in their progressive sound. I&W and Awake belong on the board.
Fates Warning was big in terms of influence in circles "in the know", so they never found a large audience like DT did. Also, their albums had some great tracks but weren't solid from start to finish. Perfect Symmetry and Parallels had some of their best output.
Atheist belongs with Elements. Prog-jazz-thrash fusion. Hugely influential and mind-blowing at the time.
source: I was there. Yes, I'm old.
I'm old too :). Agree with just about all you said. "Awake" would be my fave DT album, but "Images and Words" I think is the one that helped start the 3rd wave of Prog Metal, with the slew of bands that followed.
In general I agree with most of the discussion and specially with Voivod (fucking finally) They made music so fucking ahead of their time that only to recent years we see their influence. That is something only Voivod did as far as I'm concern (side note I can't believe that Banger being a Canadian show doesn't give that much love to Voidod). But things I wanna argued about (I wish to do this on the live stream but it's just too fucking early for me):
1) Tool: Amazing band every year that goes by without a new Tool record I fucking hate them. I cant wait to hear the new record if it's ever coming out. But I will argue that Tool is not a metal band and the fact that they are love for every single metal head doesn't make them a metal. And I think that's the reason they don't fit any category but they are so damn good that maybe just maybe we all wish them to be a metal band.
2) Gojira: As much as a I love Gojira... Can somebody tell me what is prog about any Gojira record? Gojira is great. Period. It's a fun band to headbang and great on stage but I do understand why many people think they are one of the most overrated band. The media and the fans like to tag them as prog metal or as tech death metal.... Just to see the show argue that Gojira's album (not sure which - to prove my point they just bring Gojira on board just because fans love them but no case for any album) could be equally important to DT's Ocean Machine or Enslaved's Isa --- sorry Gojira is nowhere close to either of those in terms of technicality or influence in pushing the boundaries of any genre. I am gonna say this and get lots of hate but Gojira as cool and nice as they are - they are just a ordinary groove metal with some technical touches here and there maybe?. We ALL LOVE but that I don't think they are that special as other bands other than being more popular. So I ask again:
What is it that Gojira brought to metal that wasn't there already to make it a prog metal? I will argue not much if nothing as opposed to all the rest of the bands on this episode.
Trying to get into more metal and this essential album thing is perfect. Because of this show alone I've got operation:mindcrime and black water park. Both are fucking awesome
My top 4 Essential Prog Metal Albums.
#1 Crack the Skye by Mastodon
#2 Mariner by Cult of Luna ft Julie Christmas
#3 Master of Puppets by Metallica
#4 L'Enfant Sauvage by Gojira
Great episode!
Glad to see images and words on there
Scenes from a memory is so much better than images and words
Great show but not a single mention of... And Justice For All? Surely it belongs in the conversation at least?
Queensryche - Operation Mindcrime
Voivod - Nothing Face
Dream Theater - Images and Words
Cynic - Focus
Messhugga - Destroy Erase Improve
Tool - Lateralus
Opeth - Black Water Park
Mastodon - Leviathan
BTBAM - Colours
Devin Townsend - Ocean Machine
Pretty accurate selection when considering the impact/influence factor. However I also miss Fates Warning and Atheist, as daycare62 says. More names that could've been considered are Nocturnus (The Key), Pestilence (Spheres) and the (as usual) overlooked Martyr. I'm not very sure about Obscura, Beyond Creation, Rivers of Nihil, Vektor and others ... maybe these bands are not considered because of being too recent ? Besides that, I think that some Rush and Iron Maiden albums (or at least some songs) should be regarded as essential influence and/or inspiration.
Pete Canthropus their second album is way more Progressive
I would love to see essential early Metal albums (1969-before NWOBHM)
I like the video, and I tried to listen to some of these albums. Operation mind crime was as heavy as I could get.
The most underrated prog album is Sieges Even -The Art of Navigating by the Stars....fantastic!
I mentioned them after you left your text (if that was you), I added "Subsignal" as well . . . if you know who they are? :)
yes, was me... Subsignal is also good!
If y'all considered putting Crack the Skye on the list, which came out in 2009, then Periphery's first album should be on there. I'm not a big fan of Periphery, but they've become incredibly influential in a short amount of time and definitely deserve to be on the list.
Holy f***.... My mind is officially blown by edge of sanity Crimson. How is it I am just now learning about this band/album in 2017? Wow.
Do they not know about Control Denied when discussing Death.
Haha - that was my comment as well. People kept mentioning the 3-4 later Death Albums and Cynic, but everyone forgets Chuck's Tech-Prog Metal album :P.
Thank you.i was trying to figure out what the name of chucks other bands name was
Tim Aymar had a ripping metal Vox on the Control Denied material ..Fragile art of existence had the most original sound .. Definitely needed that album when it came out..
W T F !!!!
Watchtower or Fates Warning should of been the Legend !!!
Fates Warning's No Exit !!!
Like Seriously WTF
No Ivory Gate Of Dreams
No Change Of Seasons
I think they did a really good job showing many different facets of prog metal. Sure, the most influential were probably all the early ones but they also all sound rather similar and would entirely disregard a lot of the variety in sound that prog offers today.
not too surprised; Pain of Salvation, Fates Warning, maudlin of the Well and SikTh are nowhere to be found. Also Burst (whose album "Lazarus Bird" I find better than any album Mastodon ever made) and Green Carnation's "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" are sadly not even in the spectrum of this list.
That being said, the list is decent, although I don't care for Tool nor most Meshuggah, but instead of 10, this list probably could have been a Top 20 or 25.
Maudlin is avante garde
Citadel by Ne Obliviscaris is the best prog album ever
Papa Billydeth Best album ever*
This is suggestive but I must say that citadel is one hell of an album.
Yet another prog metal discussion without a single mention of Protest the Hero? Damn...
They deserve to be part of this for two reasons : They are the biggest Canadian metal band currently active and while their music is REALLY different, I would put their discography in the same category as Tool's. What I mean by that is that every release they have put out is a favorite among a certain portion of the fanbase, and the reason for that is because they seriously haven't put out a single bad release. Each one is different from the previous, explores new ground, tries new instrumentation, new production techniques, etc. and more importantly, each one of them is really fucking good from start to finish.
Scurrilous is probably their black sheep but it was my favorite album of theirs before Volition came out, and is still a favorite among certain fans.
There's a legitimate case to be made about Kezia being a landmark in the genre, when prog metal finally met punk. Same thing with Fortress, when prog metal met mathcore and also its lyrical content is probably the best conceptual album in the entire genre. Scurrilous for its unique blend of relentless riff-based melodies, and technical vocals (Rody Walker became a new man between album 2 and 3). Volition for its sheer scale, execution and production. And even the Pacific Myth EP for its new approach and (subtle) style change.
And, as if you needed another reason, they work with the best visual artists in the business and their cover arts are majestic.
Next time you talk about prog metal, please do everyone a favor and at least acknowledge these guys' existence?
Not even a huge Dream Theater fan but Metropolis 2 is the greatest prog metal album of all time.