Personally my main two issues are that the charging infrastructure isn’t there yet. Also most electric cars seem to focus on being status symbols rather than being practical and affordable
The charging infrastructure could certainly be better... and is getting better. However, the fact that most people will be charging at home almost all of the time is a HUGE plus for electric vehicles. Not having to stop at the gas station once (or more) a week is very appealing to me.
what do you mean by status symbols of course there are luxury EVs just like there are luxury ICE cars. there are also cheaper EVS just like cheaper ICE cars. Manufactures build cars that they think people want and make the manufacture the most money so that is why you see more expensive EVs being made just like there are more expensive ICE cars being made. So your issue is with new cars being made not with electric ones. I wish people would stop making excuses to justify why they don't like something and not wanting change. Yes you are right charging infrastructure needs to improve but most people charge at home and don't drive more than there cars range in a day. You charge the car overnight and then you get up in the morning to a fully charged car, if you go to the gas station every night you can experience the same thing. I charge my car to 70% and only have to charge it once a week at home while I'm sleeping.
Unless you’re driving a clapped out 20 year old POS and instead you bought your vehicle new….guess what? You’re driving your own personal status symbol. Congratulations. Here’s your sign.
I don’t know about that charging infrastructure argument. Most people considering an EV are looking at it being a commuter vehicle to compliment their hybrid or gas vehicle. Charge at home. In my case my work has free charging stations for EVs. I mean if you’re in Texas where a pigeon shitting on an electrical line can cause rolling blackouts i get it.
Completely depends on where you are. Nuclear , Wind, Hydro, Solar, Natural Gas . I get you mean Coal which FYI is only 22% of all power in US , and dropping.
@3L33T Your statistics are at least 20 years out of date. The statistics for 2021 according to the US government's Energy Information Administration are... Natural gas: 38.3% Coal: 21.8% Renewables (hydro, wind, solar, etc.): 20.1% Nuclear: 18.9% Other: 0.9%
I just got my Tesla Model 3 and have been driving it around for almost a month. One thing that I have noticed is the range is nowhere near the EPA numbers. The build quality is also not the greatest for the price they charge for them. I am however very happy at using it as a commuter car to work, but would never want to take it on a long road trip. Time is to valuable and you only get so much in life.
I work with a guy that has a Tesla. His wife does too. He told me you must have a gasoline / diesel vehicle as well. You cannot only have electric because if you have a family emergency far away or have to haul ass away from some catastrophe / pending disaster you won't get the range with EV. I think EVs are great if you drive short ranges daily and don't mind spending $80K or more for a daily commuter. To each his own. I will keep rocking my RAM 2500 diesel.
Kevin you are clearly wrong. EV tech in not in its infancy, because it works and well. Yes new tech will be developed just like there is a new Iphone every year or computers get smarter and faster. An electric motor is superior to an internal combustion engine the only thing holding EVs back are people. Question, would you say an old rotary phone is better than your smart phone? ICE cars have had over 100 years to develop and they still can't unlock more than 20-30% of the energy a gallon of gas has. Electric motors are 90% efficient.
@@chrishansel9324 it is in it's infancy when comparing years in use/development (you mention this yourself about ice having 100 years). It is also in it's infancy compared to how much more potential it has. This doesn't mean it's a bad thing just that there are improvements that can be made still. It hasn't peaked like ice has.
@@SasukeUchiha-zu6dw You and I have a different definition of infancy. Did you know that the modern electric vehicle has been around for over ten years and has gotten better every year. 10 year olds don't like being called infants. A 2011 Leaf got 73 miles with a 28 kwh battery pack or 2.6 miles per kw. My car is a 2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV it has a range of 170 and it has a 38kwh battery pack, so that is 4.5 miles per kw. In 9 years EV range has more than doubled and efficiency has gone by 100%. Show me an ICE car that has done that. Oh ya I tow too. Lose about 45 - 50% but so does an ICE car. Batteries and infrastructure need to improve but EVs are here.
@@chrishansel9324 I know they have been around 10 years yes we have a different definition but an EV won't get mad being called an infant as it's an inanimate object. EV fans tend to get mad though. I know they are improving and ice has peaked and won't really improve in a meaningful way. What many people are waiting for is EV to be = to ice in every way including charging times range etc. They don't want to downgrade on anything, they don't want to be forced into it before they are ready. That's the beauty of the free market.
@@SasukeUchiha-zu6dw I'm sorry got the 2011 leaf's pack size wrong, it is 24kwh so that means that it had a higher efficiency of 3 miles per kw. So efficiency only rose by 75% not 100% in 9 years still impressive.
I just lost dad at the end of the video Tommy won Tommy is right electric cars for the city gas car for real life scenarios it is not political when it comes to providing for your family still love TFL awesome channel you guys are real
When I was working my remodeling company I consistently towed 5,000 lbs of tools daily back and forth from home to various jobs for years and would have been hindered by having to charge and monitor a state of charge constantly. On the weekends and holidays i would be able to take the family out in the same vehicle. Why would I want the extra hassle?.... so I could go 0 to 60 real fast. Wow!!..... what a benefit to my business. The problem with this conversation is people who really don't like big trucks want to push the benefits of an electric truck and the ones who actually use their trucks don't want to be limited by the people who really aren't truck people. Buy a $5000 lp generator and when the power goes out your house is automatically powered and you can still drive to get food and supplies.
Not sure if you will be around at this time but the world oil reserves will run out at 2052 no more manufacturing for your kid or grandkids everything you take for granted they won't get... doesn't that bug you
@@lesstevens2370 no it doesn't bother me but what does is a bunch of econuts and politicians trying to guilt and legislate our way out of this problem overnight with technology that doesn't quite muster up to our current needs. The light bulb wasn't created because the government made a law it was create out of necessity by innovation and a person's want for light without oil. So the only way this will work is by someone smarter than you and me to innovate a better way without government help and most likely their financial gain. If we allow our government to get involved it will definitely slow down the process of finding adequate alternatives to oil. So again...no it doesn't bother me because I personally can't change it and no matter how many ev cars you can put on the road and just alter the way we currently use fossil fuels it won't change things until the real brains work out the bugs of the alternative fuels. Funny with a world largely encompassed in water not one of the econuts or government politicians are wanting to talk about or push hydrogen....wonder why? Must not be enough money to be made padding their stock portfolios.
If you towed the 5000 lbs. of tools back and forth daily, that implies that it wasn't long distance towing. Electric pickup trucks are not bad for all towing. They are bad for long distance towing. They are very good for towing around town, and will save you a LOT of money on fuel. Charging at home is not a hassle. It's extremely easy, easier than going to a gas station.
@@dansanger5340yea I saw a video the ford lightning gets better mileage in the city then on the highway it works the other way around compared to gas wind drag is the biggest contributing factor to range loss not weight if your driving 30 40 mph around the city you probably can tow 230 miles charge up every night with out needing to monitor anything just set your charge percent to 80% and go to bed its 2022 computers do amazing things
How many people buy a truck that almost does everything they need it to do? Tommy is right. I’d rather have the truck that does what I need. If it doesn’t, I’m getting a bigger truck!!
@@DrewHaughton I never said it was a stupid idea. I’m saying that Roman’s argument about a truck that does 99% of what you need it to do is a bad argument.
Spot on. If I can't tow my camper to the woods. I'll keep my Cummins! Also I bought my 19' Ram 2500 Crew Cab 4x4 Cummins for $47,600 brand new! I can't even go out and buy an electric truck and if I could it will realistically cost me twice as much to purchase. Your talking about electric trucks like they are everywhere and easily obtainable. Lol. The average Joe isn't going to be driving around an electric truck for years.
How can you power the campsite with the Ford lightning if you are almost out of power GETTING to the campsite?! And if that campsite is 75-100 miles away from the nearest charging station? How do you get home? That is the 1% Tommy is talking about.
At several points in this video, Tommy falls into the frame of mind that "People don't need that" or "People only need this". This is a large part of how the divide was created between pro-EV and everybody else. If the product makes sense, it will sell itself = do not presume you know what other people need. Also, in many people's minds the EV represents a loss of control in their life. You can get whatever liquid fuel you want from multitudes of vendors at what price you are willing to pay, also carry extra fuel with you in case you need it. With EVs, you have no choice & you Will pay whatever they want to charge you - sure, today electric fuel is mostly inexpensive, but there is no market control over that. As more EVs are sold, & the additional strain laid upon the grid, you will see electricity prices multiply.
I think arguing from a "needs" position as to the opposition like you stated. People buy and have plenty of things they don't need. But it's not anyone's say what others "need" or how they spend their money including govt.
The problem is a lot of the “EV represents a loss of control” is ICE proponents trying to use psychological tactics to convince people they have different needs than they actually have. There’s honestly more control in how people get electric than how they get gas in most places including solar, compare that to gas stations where Big Oil sets prices.
Why I don't like electric cars: 1. I live in an apartment where I would not be able to charge one at home. 2. I like manual transmissions and I don't want to drive an automatic transmission let alone an electric car that has no transmission. I acknowledge that this is a personal nitpick, but if I am paying that much money, I want the car to be how I like it. 3. I do not like driver assist things, and I do not like the idea that my car can be hacked. This is also a problem with most new gas cars, but it is especially prevalent with EVs. 4. I do regularly do long drives. I do not want to have to strategically plan out a route that passes chargers. I know that everywhere I go will have a gas station relatively nearby, and I also know that I can take my two jerry cans with me and get another 10 gallons of gas if I am really worried about being in the middle of nowhere. 5. I like offroading and going out to the middle of nowhere. I have a Wrangler and I use it. I am not a rock crawler that trailers a rig in, I daily drive my Wrangler, it is my only car. I need to be able to make it to where I am going, be able to handle what I am doing, and be able to make it back. There are no EV options for that, the closest would be the Wrangler 4xe, which still uses gas. 6. Most of my driving is highway driving, which is where gas cars shine. Gas cars become more efficient on the highway and EVs become less efficient. 7. I want to be able to work on my car myself. This is becoming more of a problem with gas cars too, but there is basically no modifications or maintenance work you can do with EVs. I change my own oil, I rotate my own tires, I have installed all of the modifications on my Jeep with my dad and my girlfriend helping. 8. Lastly and most importantly, I do not want people to tell me what I can and cannot do. I don't want to have an EV car and all of the EV advocates keep telling me that I will eventually have to have one. When cars took over from horses, we didn't ban horses. You can still have and ride your horse around to this day. EV fanboys want everyone to join their cult and they legitimately believe that they are better than everyone else, yet we are the assholes for telling them to shove off?
I'm with you 110% my friend. I'm a car guy myself I love driving (actually driving, you know with a shifter and 3 pedals in the floor and no nannies) cars and modifying cars. I like tinkering with them always have. I like making them have more power, sound better, drive better, look better, handle better, and ultimately make them faster and make them my own. Ev basically kills the car hobby. No matter how fast they are they are lifeless and soulless and there is no way to modify them for power and you can't tinker with them like that. They kill what hot rodding is all about. If they wasn't the poster child for killing my hobby along with our government who are forcing them on us I wouldn't give a shit less about them or who decides to drive them. It's the fact they're forced on us and I know they're slowly killing my fav hobby that is what I don't like about them. I have 0 interest in them.
Here is the thing, no one is forcing you into an EV. Yes, new ICE vehicles will be phased out of new vehicle production at some point, but as of yet I have not seen where ICE vehicles will be banned. If the average vehicle on the road is approximately 14 years old, even if they do actually phase out new ICE vehicles in 2035, that gives you until almost 2050 to be average in an ICE vehicle. Electric vehicles are still early in their development, things will get better with time just as they did and still do with ICE vehicles. Give it time, things will get better and at some point, it will most likely make sense for most if not everyone down the road. Given, I still see some horse and buggy’s on the road, so some will still hold on to the tried and true even when they make far less sense.
@@moarpwr4414 I live in New Jersey the Governor for New Jersey has said that ICE vehicles will be banned in 2025 I can't remember the year he said that they would ban them but he did say it so every state is different every state doesn't do the exact same things with other states
Tommy is right on the 1% towing use case driving purchasing decisions. For example, I know a guy that sold his current gen gas heavy duty truck to buy a diesel because his towing range sucked so bad with the gas motor when towing his camper to and from the coast exactly 1 time per year.
It’s one of the absolute dumbest fighting points.. 96 % of Standard Truck buyers don’t tow 74% of truck buyers don’t haul cargo in bed. Ever lol 70% of truck buyers don’t take their truck off road ever Lest we forget how many vehicles are sold that tow under 3500 lbs or don’t tow at all. All your coupes , sedans , Jeeps , small suvs etc etc Stay heavy duty or gas if you wanna tow. But that doesn’t make the EV “not ready for mainstream lol”
Right! The vast majority of people I know with trucks have either NEVER had a trailer on it or had a trailer on it 2 times in the past 7 years... and most of em barely use the bed, you look under the tonneau cover and you'll see three 2x4s and an old coffee cup that have been in there for the last six months... I even know people that OWN a truck for the "just in case" scenario and you know what they did? They RENTED another truck to haul the trailer long distance cuz they didn't want to put the miles or wear and tear on thier own truck to keep the resale intact!
I’m with Tommy on this one. If I want to tow 10% of the time, the lightning is absolutely useless 10% of the time and if I’m going to put 80k into a vehicle it had better be useful 100% of the time.
There are a few new Bolts for sale in my area for under $30K. To me they are the only affordable EV. Currently I think the hybrid Maverick is the best bang for the buck vehicle if you can get one at MSRP.
I like engines and I like motors, what I don't like is when the FEDERAL government forced the market to change rather than the public dictating the market. If certain states want to pass laws restricting certain vehicles, then the citizens of those states are responsible for their choices. But most states are different. They have different economies, they have different infrastructure, they have different needs. Unfortunately this is political and just like everything else the answer usually is, follow the money.
Right now, the public wants electric trucks so bad there is a 1 to 2 year waiting list for them. Millions of people have gotten line to buy an electric truck, payed deposits, and they still have to wait. How is that not the public dictating the market?
@@BrianMelancon The federal regulation (2035) that demands an end to conventional engines in passenger vehicles is the artificial market. The "demand" for electric vehicles seems high because it only makes up 1% of the market. And the wait list again is forced, what is being produced is in very small quantities. Like I said before, I like a few EVs on the road. I love the tech & theory behind all of it. But I don't want to be forced to buy something that I do not want. I feel the regulation deadline will be extended or possibly dropped. Europe had already requested a 5 year pushback because they cannot meet it. Just my 2 cents.
@@carlov.3017 Just say that you’re a conservative Republican that doesn’t like the government dictating what decisions people get to make, unless of course it’s the government telling women they are prohibited from making decisions for their own bodies and livelihoods - I’m sure you’re perfectly fine with that! Lol. Tell a woman she can’t have an abortion makes total conservative sense but telling someone they gotta slow down on beating up the atmosphere is such an abomination. Go figure! Btw, the government isn’t punishing anyone from buying ICE products. Of course with the constant complaining of inflation and the price of gas, constant pollution from ICE vehicles, etc. the U.S. government would be smart to encourage a method that allows the economy to be more independent and less dependent on oil coming from other countries. Politics aside, EVs are simply more efficient and affective. They make too much sense that you’re rebelling against them because you’re not ready or willing to make the switch - but you don’t have to. Doesn’t mean they aren’t more efficient forms of transportation.
@@carlov.3017 I'm so glad people like you will be around when I finally get to purchase my electric truck. Otherwise, it'd be hard to sell my Hummer. I should throw a "Don't Tread On Me" sticker on it and raise the price a few thousand dollars. I am literally hoping people like you continue to think like you do for at least a few more years. You're awesome. Please continue!
My mom had a Chevette in the early 80s, we love that car! The red pleather seats were scorching hot in the summer and freezing cold/hard as a rock in the winter. Good times.
Consumers had the same arguments about the model T, TV’s, Color TV’s, flat tv’s, home PC’s, laptops, mobile phone, smartphone. Give science and technology time to solve these problems. The free market has really only been working on EV’s for at most 10yrs. 10yrs from now a lot of these “problems” will be resolved.
Damn right and well said to! 👍🏻 We went from cars are for the rich to cars replaced horses for the majority in less than 10 years from the debut of the very first mass produced automobile. Now that we've reached the tipping point of over 5% of all sales being ev. The adoption rate will accelerate exponentially from here. Even conservative estimates put the U.S. at over 25% ev market share by 2025. Yet if you look at all the new ev only factories, plus battery cell plants being built. It shows by the end of 2025 the U.S. will have enough domestic built cell capacity for 50-60% ev only sales. I am beginning to wonder if making evs, ev cells and chargers. Is going to be directly responsible along with us building out solar/wind/geo thermal and renewable plants, plus mining for all of that. Will help in creating a new American based industrial renaissance. 🤔
Here's the problem, the $50,000 by purchasing the solar panels can eliminate the electricity bill. That is money that you will not have to spend. Purchasing the diesel did not change anything. Your needs will not change. The electric vehicle also lowers the operating costs so that difference also makes someone more liquid, and it is possible to recoup the costs from the difference. If there is limited towing, that means a second vehicle is needed. Two vehicles can be turned into 1 unless you have 2 drivers for less than the cost of the 2 vehicles used. This also means lower insurance probably. What was lost? 2 passengers with the primary vehicle being a SUV or van. That van or SUV was probably purchased for the occasional hauling, which the truck will still do. That hauling also moved the efficiency of the gas-powered to the electric truck. The fact that Tommy needs to buy a trim and a range extender battery that only give 30 miles does not mean that all people need to buy that trim and battery. Towing package, software, and power required is $45,000. Used van that gives viability right now is about $30,000. There is also no subsidy. The truck needs to be at $15,000 to reach the full price. Remove the subsidy and that truck needs to be $7000 or less to run it. Once you are in that price range, the gas-powered truck is going to be the same as the electric truck with a lot more maintenance.
Solar panels don't eliminate the bill, when the sun don't shine ypur using grid power, and if ypu have gas powered anything in the house ypur paying for that, and if ypu use more power than ypur panels can make during the sun then ypur being charged that. And at night your on grid time cause ypu have no battery back ups at this time for most homes........
@@zacknelson8918 Your claim is that people have not even been paid after going solar. That is false. That is even with no battery backup. With a battery backup, your claim makes even less sense.
@@LucasLeCompteMusic Do you factor in the fact that your car is going to need the engine replaced? I've changed my fuel pump as well. Did you factor in your coolant and lubricant? Did you factor in the cost difference in terms of cost difference in fuel? Did you factor in the fact that you will need to replace spark plugs and the assembly behind it? Did you factor in the fact that you might need to replace the fuel injector? Did you factor in the fact that your car still has a computer inside it that might need to be replaced? Did you factor in the fact that you might need to replace your transmission? Do I need to keep going?
Pretty sure currently replacing those things on a normal car is cheaper than a 20k battery pack. Also pretty sure diesel machines are used to mine and transport the lithium that is in the battery. Also you have to look at this from the lens of someone living in a poor country. A lot of people can fix and repair older cars, that will be impossible with current EVs.
A good chunk of people hate EVs entirely because of misguided politics. An overlapping chunk hate EVs because they hate change. That mostly covers the people who hate EVs. Then there are the people who simply think that EVs are not for them. Some of them have an informed opinion, and some don't.
I agree with Tommy about the 1% thing. I work from home and have a F250 diesel because I use it for pulling our camper on the weekends, pulling a boat, or picking up supplies at the local box store. We take my wife's car any time we're doing "regular" stuff and it could *potentially* be replaced by an EV. Even when I didn't work from home, I only worked 10 minutes away and didn't mind poor mileage in the F250 when I'm still only having to fill up every few weeks. I've thought about getting rid of it and renting if I need a truck, but I use the truck often enough that I would be losing money after the first couple of months of the year. I'm also the type of guy that will pack food to take with me on a trip so that I don't have to stop very often along the way. I really don't like the idea of extra hours being added to my trips. If they could make some type of system where a modular battery got swapped out in a few minutes to give you a full charge, then I would probably be all for that as long as the range was not prohibitive.
Question: Does the F150 Lightening HAVE to be wirelessly connected to operate? I can take an ICE truck and rip out the 4g/5g modem and the truck runs fine. Is that the case for an electric vehicle?
I like watching you guys go back and forth. I am a ford guy and currently already own an older ford truck that I use for towing campers. Taking cows to the sale and hauling hay. It’s paid for and gets the job done. However with gas prices high I would love to have either an electric F150 or a little maverick hybrid to daily drive because 80 percent of the time I am usually just hauling around stuff in the bed like tools gas cans trash feed bags fertilizer etc. and either of those two would work great for that.
The public "hates" electric cars because they are being forced on the public. If your life and wallet work with electric car then you are happy but for the rest of us let the best tool for the job do the job. Long haul; diesel, comuter truck with towing on the weekend; plug in hybrid v8, turbo small displasment or hydrogen, commuter car; eletric
Roman: "Trucks are now the family hauler even though the bed is empty most of the time." I agree but how is that different from the 60s when sedans were huge and hauled the family and their stuff (cavernous trunks) or the 70s when wagons and vans were popular, or the 80s when mini-vans and hatchbacks were popular or since when SUVs/crossovers were popular? Americans have always wanted vehicles that meet not only their needs but their wants (vacation, golfing, the beach, the lake, etc.). A pickup is one of the few vehicles versatile enough to do it all, particularly now when they can be as ritzy as a Cadillac. What's wrong with that?
YES, if I am spending my own money tens of thousands of dollars it needs to meet my needs AND wants. It has to meet the 99% and the 1% edge cases. It has to be just as good as my current vehicle in specs (I'm not paying for a downgrade). If I can only afford 1 vehicle it has to do it all. Obliviously if govt or pro EV folks want to buy me an EV as my main daily driver that's a different story.
I much rather have the hybrid f150 with pro power rather than the lighting any day. I agree with Tommy 100%. Love seeing these two debate. Great podcast.
This was great. As a gear head, I love the tech of electric. I love my diesel excursion. I daily ride a motorcycle to work and love it. I enjoy my 1950s military vehicles. I tow once a month local. Love it all. How do you two leave these pod cast and shut off the arguing? Dinner must be rough lol
Tommy was making some excellent arguments both for and against electric vehicles and he really seems to grasp both mindsets very well. It's just a real shame that he kept getting cut off and every time he started winning the argument he got talked over and slapped with the "I'm dad so I'm right, I'm older so I'm right" arguments from across the table. By the end of the podcast it felt like watching a discussion with me and my dad where it didn't matter how much data I had, how much research I did, or what the facts were; it all came down to dad saying "well, I disagree and you can't change my mind because I raised you so you can't know more than me." Keep at it Tommy, the facts always win in the end, and I say that as someone that finds electric cars to be far to sterile and boring to drive compared to my manual geared ICE vehicles.
57:00 Roman nailed every reason why a Lightning should be the go to for every day use. Brilliant statement. And Tommy is completely right. People are that short sighted. A non business truck buyer will buy a pick up for the 1% of time they will tow. We are in trouble.
I'm with Tommy on a lot of these subjects, EVs are great for the right person who has the right needs. And it's getting better, if companies can keep this direction EVs will get way better in the decades to come.
Difference in horse n buggy times compared to now is that you could still ride your horse (and still can), meanwhile now we are being forced through the almighty dollar.
Honest disagreement with well reasoned impassioned arguments on both sides, I absolutely love this podcast, the father/son repertoire works. Keep em' coming
Plug in hybrid is the way to go. My Honda Clarity has 47 miles electric range. I never use gas except for long trips. 47 miles of range costs me 2.29 to charge at home.
Right now we have two vehicles in our household - a 2012 5.0 F150 and a 2017 Ford Transit. Both average about 15mpg. Driving over 2000 miles a month, our fuels costs are above $900. To me the Lightning is too power-hungry to be an errand-mule, and doesn't quite cut it for the towing aspect. I'm very close to putting a deposit on a Bolt EUV to cover all those errands that are probably 80% of our mileage. As nice as the top tier EV's are, they're quite a bit too expensive for me.
I can agree with you, and drive a similar 2k or more per month. Even at $4.25 per gallon, your cost is around $0.28 per mile for fuel. Electric in my area is $0.26 per kWh (with all fees etc) which breaks down to approximately $0.07 per mile in my EV6. TFL and other channels are getting about 2 mile per kWh, bringing it to about $0.13 per mile at that electric costs. However, I have gone to EA stations where they can charge by kWh or by the minute depending on the state. I have had it cost less than $0.10 per kWh in my Kia EV6, letting it cost less than $0.02 per mile (best case scenario), way better than I got in my F350 at $0.43 per mile when I traded it in. Fuel costs have come down, and it would be $0.39 per mile currently(best case currently in my area). Getting an errand mule is a great idea if it works for you and I fully understand your choice. Making the full change while making some compromise’s has worked for me. When EV trucks get a bit better, and more readily available, I will most likely make the jump from an EV car to and EV truck. Here is hoping the Lightning V2 gets better.
Hate the two party system because I vote Republican but don't agree with them on everything. Roman is spot on about the Leaf and Compliance cars setting back EVs. I was always under the impression they were slow, boring, and took forever to charge. Fast forward 10ish years, I now own a model 3 P and LOVE it. Electric cars are definitely the future. Now with that said there are still a lot of factors to consider and they may not be for everyone right now. If you need a heavy duty truck your going to get an ICE. If you leave in an apartment with no charging and compute to work that provides no charging it may be better to get an ICE unless your ok waiting at a supercharger. It really comes down to your lifestyle. Everyone should be able to have a choice and not be shamed or have their car/truck vandalized because of it.
Psychologically, I think you hit the nail on the head. The release of electric vehicles at a time when living expenses, including gas, are their highest price ever feels like manipulation and an agenda by certain political parties rather than natural market progress and capitalism. Anybody that is pushed, will resist. 100%.
Years ago I read a book called “Get a Horse.” It was about the early days of the automobile, and most people thought motorists were stupid, since they spent so much time at the side of the road fixing their cars. The conventional wisdom was that getting a horse was the best way to avoid all of the auto breakdowns.
Roman doesn't care about range or time required to charge because when he really needs to go long distances and has no time he can just take another truck from the fleet, as has happened when attempting to join an overland expo with the Model X, am I right Tommy?
$50k would buy you a massive solar facility, like a 20-25kw system. Most houses could only fit between 7 and 15 kw of panels on the roof. 15 kw would be in most cases enough to completely offset household and transportation usage and would be a 20-30k investment. Roll that into your mortgage and amortize it over the life of the asset and it's a hundred or two per month.
Roman, the Texas power grid is not "the worst" and unreliable. The grid is regularly servicing record loads with the countries highest mix of renewable energy resources, and at some of the most competitive rates in the nation. Once in a century events can and have caused problems for every electric grid in the US, and those lessons learned have made each stronger.
Biggest difference is free market, horse and buggy were replaced because the market said they wanted a faster and easier way to get from point a to b. As a result other industries stepped in when they saw there was a dollar to be made and slowly everything switched over. Thinking you can legislate this kind of change or force it to happen rather than let the market decide is a very dangerous way of thinking. Cheap energy is what gives us as a developed nation the ability to create and innovate, or adapt which is what we humans are good at. Forcing that change as a result of policy is going to result in the opposite and cause a plethora of other problems. If they are better let them get there on their own as a natural result of them beating out the negatives of the ICE. I love electric cars but for my family of 8 not really an option at this point.
YES, if I am spending my own money tens of thousands of dollars it needs to meet my needs AND wants. It has to meet the 99% and the 1% edge cases. It has to be just as good as my current vehicle in specs (I'm not paying for a downgrade). If I can only afford 1 vehicle it has to do it all. Obliviously if govt or pro EV folks want to buy me an EV as my main daily driver that's a different story.
I think 95% of the time an electric truck would be perfect for me. I do have a 20’ camper that I tow but it weighs around 3,000 lbs. even if the range was bad with the camper, i feel I could make it work with the handful of trips I take with it every year. What kills me is the cost of buying the electric truck. I just cannot justify that cost. That being said I day dream about how quiet that lighting probably is and the lack of regular maintenance on that truck.
But you'll end up spending $25,000, or more, for gasoline or diesel. I just spent $140 for an oil change and 17 gallons of gasoline for my ICE car. I could have driven over 5040 miles in an EV for the money.
For me it’s about an electrical grid that’s not ready for everyone to have an electric car. Looking at California with its brownouts and blackouts for instance. Not to mention if you have more than one car.
Waiting for a plug in hybrid pickup with 240 volt inverter to replace my 2017 Ridgeline and my gas generator. F150 hybrid with 7.2 KW is closest to my needs but the battery is too small and it’s not plug in.
I’m not opposed to buying electric and the sooner I am personally no longer tied to the pump the better but what scares me is the potential for more brownouts and blackouts from an electrical grid that struggles to meet our needs, especially is high population communities.
We had a big storm this summer here in Ontario and some 400,000 people had no power for almost a week. Thankfully it wasn't another ice storm in the winter or things definitely would have been worse. 1 EV soaks up the same power as multiple houses, we simply do not have the infrastructure to handle the drain applied by them. Maybe nuclear power may offset some of the issues but we still have transmission lines as a weak point and there are millions of miles that need to be upgraded to handle to juice or else 🔥 like California
@@TheGecko213 First of all, no EV takes 5 hours to charge at a station Secondly, I can't fill my tank up at home, you can an EV. Keep it charged up at night, when you're literally sleeping. It only affects driving 300+ miles, and you're not doing that every day, else I can guarantee you you're spending more on fuel than your house...
@@coryernewein The average Ontario household uses 9,500 kwh per year, and they drive an average of 15,200 kilometers per year. To drive those kilometers on electricity would be an additional 4,560 kwh per year. If they charge at home during off-peak hours, that would cost them about $400/ year.
@@steinwaymodelb and in a perfect world we would have let EVs evolve along with ICE vehicles, unfortunately that is not the world we live in. People won't charge at off peak hours, hell people still fuel up in the morning knowing full well the price is likely to be a couple cents cheaper in the evening (atleast in Barrie and other commuter towns). Now on top of that, tell folks who scrape by with 2003 KIA's who can only afford to toss in 15$ every couple days that they need to pay to have their home wiring upgraded to charge their car, or for the property management to up the rent to recoop the costs. We just aren't ready for them to be the main source of travel for most of us, I live in rural Ontario and have a 10,000w generator hooked into my panel because storms happen and food spoils. Our power is pretty good and only goes out during large storms but brownouts happen, and if by some chance everyone was charging even in off-peak hours it would be a huge stress on the grid. So does everyone get a staggered designated charging time to avoid that situation? What if I'm too sick to get up and plug in my car, am I just screwed until my next allotted time comes around, perhaps an extra fee to jump back in line or maybe a certain number of exemptions per year are allowed? All of this just boils down to the simple fact that EVs due to corporate greed are in their infancy and will get much, much better. For now though they should not be heralded as being greener than grass and more efficient than an electric kettle(which is nearly 100% efficient minus that silly little LED lmao). Cheers sir, always keep learning and improving🤙
What if the lightning used the frunk for a small diesel with generator, enough to keep up with electrical use (like current trains). An amazing perfect FULL use truck for everything. Only use the diesel when long trip towing!!
I think your idea is good but I think the guys have said before that the current ev tech doesn’t allow for external charging and driving at the same time
I've owned 2 homes in my last 33 years of life and have yet to need to power my house from an external source . I'm sure it does happen but it's not going to be very common.
I'm in the middle on this but my specific use case for a truck is towing my camper and long distance road trips. I have a GTI as a daily driver and we have an SUV for hauling the kids. Electric trucks aren't there for me yet, specifically for my use, but they are definitely in a usable place for at least half of truck buyers. A lot of the people at the campsites with smaller campers only travel 200-300 miles and would be fine with an electric truck. Our next family vehicle will be electric since it fits that use case perfectly of city driving. I don't know if I'd be replacing my car any time soon with electric as I'd like to start going to the track again and electric just isn't there for track driving either.
So it got really hot here in Texas over 100f every day now and I'm staring to really consider the overtemp protection and remote AC control of my Tesla as a must have. Not only is it more pleasant when you go back to your car you can keep things in your car you normally could not. Pets, musical instruments, chocolate candy, groceries, anything that could be damaged by temperature extremes or rapid changes. This also includes the materials your cars interior is made of. You car will last longer and stay nicer (read higher resale value) if you can control the interior temperature.
Just chill. EV's and ICE can exist simultaneously people. There are pros and cons to both technologies after all. Your current living situation, finances and needs will dictate which works better for you as an individual. As time marches on however, I suspect EV shortcomings (price, range, charge time, infrastructure, grid limits etc) will most certainly be overcome and "eventually" supplant most ICE-based transportation. Give it time though... sheesh. I love both the current ability and future potential of electric vehicles, but these government mandated 5-10 year deadlines are ridiculously shortsighted and unrealistic.
If you value your time and want to road trip an EV, don’t buy an F150 Lightning. Buy a Taycan, Kia, Hyundai or Tesla EV which will all charge way quicker on a miles added per minute of charging basis. For proof watch this channel, Kyle’s Out of Spec and Tesla Bjørn’s channels for lots of evidence that fast charging efficient cars with decent sized batteries road trip at essentially the same speed as gas cars. This all assumes you’re driving a little faster than the speed limit in al cases.
I think the biggest take-away from this episode is that "lifestyles" determine what vehicle(s) you buy. there are pros' and cons' to everything: electric vehicles are really efficient, with range drawbacks and gas and diesel are the inverse. Although, I think the most important thing to remember is that technology will evolve and progress w/ solutions and inventions allowing the "switch" to become easier in time.
Chevette wheelbase is around 95, bolt is around 105. Length is almost the same at 163. Width is around 61 to 69. The main difference us the Bolt is taller.
People don’t like electric cars because all of the ones that promised to be affordable are either impossible to get or marked up right now. For me it’s charging times for sure. I don’t love teslas screen and interiors, especially for all of that money. I have solar panels, I would totally buy and electric daily driver if they weren’t being marked up. No point in spending all that money just to save less money… My old beater car saves way more money than buying electric right now. When an electric car can charge in less than 30 mins at any or at least most chargers I’ll be more interested.
You know you plug in at night and its charged in the morning full tank every morning you only need to use a dcfc on road trips and tesla does charge up under 20 min look it up on TH-cam out of spec motoring you dont sit at charger till 100% on a road trip you charge until you have enough range to take you to the next charger he has done cannonball runs with multiple evs 1200 plus miles and it was mostly 1 hr difference from gas
@@lesstevens2370 almost no electric brands pull off pleasant cannonball runs lol. I drive a plug in hybrid with a level 2 charger and solar plus Tesla power walls. I understand how to plug a car in lol. There is no financial benefit for most people to switch to EVs when they are 60 plus thousand dollars. And the fact that many charging stations are not convenient and do not charge at the max rates they claim. Plus the fact that many EV companies don’t charge as fast as they claim. I can’t picture my kids waiting an hour and a half for a Rivian to charge up from 10-80 percent which plenty of owners are reporting at public charging stations. Rivian doesn’t even have good battery preconditioning software yet. Plus it’s more than my raptor. The question was why to people hate EVs. I don’t, but the only one I would consider right now would be a Porsche Taycan. And it could not be my only car, and it would not save me money haha.
@@lesstevens2370 your talking to a guy who had a cyber truck reservation for like 3 years, a Rivian res for two years and a lightning res for two years. The ford lightning pro would probably be a winner if you could get one, but the dealers were literally making them unaffordable. I think it will be a few years out. The cyber truck might actually never exist, and the Rivian drives incredible, but idk not worth it for me. Rivian is a brand that is definitely not there yet imo. Teslas? No thanks, too expensive, and they aren’t my bag even though they realistically have the best and most charging stations along where I road trip to.
Most lawn companies are small one man operations who can't afford the Ford Lightning, the bigger lawn companies would not buy the Lightning because they purchase trucks that have large beds to haul away debris.
Grant's road trip was a bad example, but also a good example. That same 1200 mile trip in my Model 3 LR is ~2.5 hours of charging, less if I can charge at a hotel overnight. Divide that into 2 days, that ~1 hour of charging is nothing to me. Even in a gas vehicle I would probably be stopped for at least 30 minutes for quick pit stops, but realistically more when stopping for lunch. But I'm also not an iron-butt type and I get really antsy to get out and walk around after 2-3 hours anyway. But that just goes to show what a decent charging infrastructure and car can do. Electrify America and the F150 aren't sufficient for road tripping really long distances.
Tommy is absolutely right on all points. Tommy just ask your dad how much he likes and F150 Platinum, an ICE truck that has limited towing and also happens to cost over 100K and it seems everyone has one! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Airstream and other companies are working on trailers to help with the battery range problem. Airstream has a trailer concept right now that has a battery of it's own and a drive system that helps with the fuel economy.
To those who are complaining about charging infrastructure, yes it is a huge hurdle to overcome... but that exact argument was made 100 years ago when cars were becoming a thing. "Where are you going to get gasoline? There's barely any stations". Horse and Buggy was the norm, and Henry Ford's banker even told him that the automobile was just a fad, and that horse and buggy would live on. Are any of you riding in a buggy these days? Yes, it's gonna take time. "But government mandates" is a moot point, because there's many things mandated by governments that have only helped to improve your life. You enjoy energy efficient machines that help to keep your electrical bill down, right? Well, I'll tell you right now, it wasn't at the kindness of manufactures hearts that they strive for efficiency, governments mandate efficiencies to them for sales. So get your panties out of a twist, buy gas cars for another 15 years or so, and let the industry move forward. Battery tech's gonna improve, just like your engine has over the last 10 to 20 years. EVs are the future of automobiles, and if that upsets you, keep your gas car as long as you can. It only affects the sale of new cars, which knowing most people, you'll be fine for the next 20 to 30 years buying used vehicles anyways.
excellent reply, Xyler! Perhaps the best comment here! One problem with cars made by traditional automakers like Volvo, GM, etc., who've said that they're moving rapidly toward all-electric cars only, is that the parts supply for older ICEVs will rapidly dry up when their ICEVs are no longer produced -- and that will make buying a new ICEV much less attractive. Once this gets accelerating (more BEVs made, fewer ICEVs made), the desire to buy a new ICEV will get less attractive very quickly, and that will spur the change even faster (as it did with horses vs. cars a century ago, aided by the rapid build-out of fueling infrastructure, where many new jobs will also appear).
Govt mandates aren't a moot point because if the time when they kick in the tech isn't ready there is going to be some problems and some politicians and mandates will need to be removed
I hate having electric cars pushed on me by coercion through politics. I will buy whatever is best for MY lifestyle. The government forcing our hand will only lead to people digging in their heels.
@@jameshalbirt5807 because government policies are coercing auto manufacturers to transition to all-electric vehicles. California is going to outlaw the sale of all new gas-powered cars in the state by 2035. And as the biggest market in the US, as California goes, the rest of the country goes. So auto manufacturers have to stop producing or investing in gas powered cars to switch over to EVs, because of these policies. Soon, we won't have a choice. EVs will be the only option, and it will have been forced on us by the government.
@@jameshalbirt5807 I'll ignore your snarky and irrelevant comment. You missed a major point: as California goes, the rest of the country goes. Auto manufacturers can't afford to exclude California, the biggest market in America, from their consumer base. So, they're going to switch over to only producing EVs, especially once other states pass similar laws to California. And once the manufacturers are not producing gas powered cars anymore, ALL states won't have a choice anymore
For your point about long term storage food or ar15s... A bucket of 25year food that could feed you for a month is a couple hundred bucks. And an ar15 is also only a few hundred bucks. Also, I do have solar panels.
I was speaking to a fellow at our neighborhood mailbox yesterday afternoon about his Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk, BTW nice vehicle… He mentioned he also owns a Tesla model 3 but refuses to take it on a long trip. Reason for this is it’s a PITA to sit waiting for it to change up, thus the TrailHawk.
I have nothing against electric cars and trucks. It's the way they are talked about. I want the truth about how green they are. You surely know what I'm talking about but you also skim right over the facts. The true long term costs are also skimmed over. I am 70 years old and have never bought a new car by choice. Buying used electric leaves a lot to be desired ( batteries). I drive very little these days and am a mechanic. So old used gasoline cars and trucks save me a lot of money. Please address these issues more often.
Tfl I think you are missing the point why people have concerns about ev vechiels it's the charging times and distance they can go, towing and not towing. EV Vechiels are powerful and can bet most vehicles, every one knows that but it's charging times, for most people.
The entirety of the charging system not just the last issue of standing there charging your car for a day ... electric prices have been going up up and up at this rate gas will be a lot cheaper quite soon in many places...
@@insiainutorrt259 and hear in Australia government is going to tax you for the amount of miles you do to pay for the roads and infrastructure. And no one is talking about the cost of replacing the battery. The problems with the Ford mustang ev hasn't been mentioned on tfltruck why.
YES, if I am spending my own money tens of thousands of dollars it needs to meet my needs AND wants. It has to meet the 99% and the 1% edge cases. It has to be just as good as my current vehicle in specs (I'm not paying for a downgrade). If I can only afford 1 vehicle it has to do it all. Obliviously if govt or pro EV folks want to buy me an EV as my main daily driver that's a different story.
For me, an EV has a place in my garage. We have a 1/2 ton gas 6.2L PU for pulling horses, carrying larger items, etc., my “lifetime” SUV for long remote trips, back country adventures, etc., and now have an EV on order for around town runs - which account for about 85% of all of our mileage. We’re lucky that our garage will (barely) hold 3 vehicles, and that our super off-peak power rates make EV charging a small fraction of the cost of fuel. If I could only have one vehicle, I don’t think I could make an EV work, unless I could reliably rent a gas vehicle suited for our particular need.
100% agree with Tommy at 39:00 mark. If you cannot charge at home - DO NOT BUY AN EV! Using public fast charging destroys any financial benefit that comes along with owning an EV. The best part of owning and commuting with an EV is that I never have to go out of my way to get "fuel". When I have to drive my F150, getting gas feels like the biggest waste of my time now.
59:00 mark - once again 100% side with Tommy about the truck. I commute in a 2013 Leaf every day, absolutely love my EV! But I will keep my Ecoboost F150 until the government pries the keys from my cold dead hands, because I own the truck for sole purpose of towing my ski boat and my camper trailer and I need to be able to go 300-400 miles while towing without wasting all my vacation time charging.
Hi Tommy i really like your arguments, but this time I’m agree with Roman I don’t know how is in colorado, but here in South Texas every day i see more house installing Solar Panels on the roofs, and even if is expensive the solar panels finance them for 20 years, and that pretty much transfer your utility bill form your power utility company to the solar panel company, and that make the transition affordable for most of the home owners, but most of this home owner don Ghent the power wall because is way to expensive. So on Romas point of view gettin a lightning could work very good because for the price of the truck even if you get the platinum your still are paying less than the power walls and you can use your truck, and in case of emergency you have electricity, now can you imagine been able to get the pro version even with the smaller battery.
1000% with Roman on this one.... The self sufficiency of electric trucks.... Ill suffer that 1 time a year we tow to the beach for the 363 more days of the year I can use my truck for more than just going from one place to another I can use it to be completely off grid... Basically taking my comfort of living everywhere I go.... Cooking steak on an electric griddle at work 👌🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲
I agree with Tommy's finishing argument. I know so many people trade in their cars for that one case scenario they think they need it for. We can all live with a Toyota Corolla to get us from point A to point B but we have different needs of our vehicles. Weather and usage defines what cars and trucks we buy.
Roman, Batteries do not use any rare earth elements. If anyone knows otherwise please provide an example. Perhaps you are thinking of the magnets used in EV motors, they do use rare earth elements but not all EV motors use these magnets.
I think the RAV4 Prime is the perfect family hauler and daily driver if you need it all in one vehicle. Having an EV for daily driving and a gas truck or SUV for the weekends would be the best setup.
I use to not be a fan of electric vehicles mostly because I'm not fan of Musk and the Tesla fanbois, but after giving a MacheE a chance, neither my wife nor I are ever going back to gas engines if we can avoid it. EVs are just fun to drive and I love charging at home. I have a truck which I use for towing short distances and hauling stuff from the hardware store, I do not need the towing range. EVs are not for everyone, that's a fact, but I do think a lot of people that hate them are more vocal in general.
I agree that Musk has turned a lot of people off of Teslas (I'd never buy one because of him), but thankfully we're getting lots of better BEVs coming to market every year now...
I fully agree with Tommy 100% on all counts. If I am towing anything, I am not waiting hours for a charger and an hour or so at the charger itself. (Esp) if I am towing a 6k lbs. camper for 86 miles. Ev's won't be cheaper long term. How so? Road wear & tear taxes, and electric use charges on your recharging costs (that are currently not a factor but absolutely will be once the government sees is big enough adoption to justify the taxes on recharging. Even if I use an EV for short distances only. I will be recharging with much more regularity than if I have a gas car/truck with 20+ gallon gas tank on it.
Solar systems typically add to the value of your home dollar for dollar and there is currently a 26% federal tax rebate on the cost that's dropping to 22% at the end of the year, you also don't need a battery, if you live in a place where the power grid is stable you can just sell your electricity to the power company when your not using it.
Very interesting points and interesting insight into the American perspective. I was quite surprised by the point about individualism and independence. The hosts did a great job bouncing the ideas and going quite far down the rabbit hole.
2:38 ... be careful about exaggerating in anything... I don't think that I can fill a 24-gallon Sierra tank in 3-5 minutes... (the point about how much longer it takes to charge a BEV than to fill up an ICEV on gas is still on point, of course)
Having owned an electric car for a few years, much of the debate is red vs blue nonsense. Pick the right tool for the right job. Electric for in town or short commutes, extremely cheap to run, leave the house with a full tank every time, and low maintenance. Buy a truck for distance and towing, electric just doesn't add up or compare in these settings.
@@insiainutorrt259 Yes a good point, when cost is a primary factor picking a the right tool is even more important. An 80k ev truck, or no way to charge at home makes even less sense.
Because they push these EVs on us without a proper charging station infrastructure…. It’s honestly clear as water. I’d love an ev. But until someone makes the charging stations as abundant as gas I’ll never purchase one.
If you own your home, you own a charging station that you will mainly use and is cheaper than a charging station is. That was the point of the fact that during the Model-T farm owners fueled their own. There were no gas stations. You are claiming you will definitely need an infrastructure that you probably will not, but the infrastructure will change as the number of electric vehicles grows. 200+ mile range on a full charge means that you will be home before you have to charge.
Personally my main two issues are that the charging infrastructure isn’t there yet. Also most electric cars seem to focus on being status symbols rather than being practical and affordable
The charging infrastructure could certainly be better... and is getting better. However, the fact that most people will be charging at home almost all of the time is a HUGE plus for electric vehicles. Not having to stop at the gas station once (or more) a week is very appealing to me.
@@BrianMelancon that’s the way you’re supposed to do it, plug the car in overnight like a phone.
what do you mean by status symbols of course there are luxury EVs just like there are luxury ICE cars. there are also cheaper EVS just like cheaper ICE cars. Manufactures build cars that they think people want and make the manufacture the most money so that is why you see more expensive EVs being made just like there are more expensive ICE cars being made. So your issue is with new cars being made not with electric ones. I wish people would stop making excuses to justify why they don't like something and not wanting change. Yes you are right charging infrastructure needs to improve but most people charge at home and don't drive more than there cars range in a day. You charge the car overnight and then you get up in the morning to a fully charged car, if you go to the gas station every night you can experience the same thing. I charge my car to 70% and only have to charge it once a week at home while I'm sleeping.
Unless you’re driving a clapped out 20 year old POS and instead you bought your vehicle new….guess what? You’re driving your own personal status symbol. Congratulations. Here’s your sign.
I don’t know about that charging infrastructure argument. Most people considering an EV are looking at it being a commuter vehicle to compliment their hybrid or gas vehicle. Charge at home. In my case my work has free charging stations for EVs. I mean if you’re in Texas where a pigeon shitting on an electrical line can cause rolling blackouts i get it.
Wow, Roman what do you think most power plants use to power them?
in germany... nothing... they gona freeze this winter.... or pay russia WELL!
Completely depends on where you are. Nuclear , Wind, Hydro, Solar, Natural Gas . I get you mean Coal which FYI is only 22% of all power in US , and dropping.
@3L33T Your statistics are at least 20 years out of date. The statistics for 2021 according to the US government's Energy Information Administration are...
Natural gas: 38.3%
Coal: 21.8%
Renewables (hydro, wind, solar, etc.): 20.1%
Nuclear: 18.9%
Other: 0.9%
I just got my Tesla Model 3 and have been driving it around for almost a month. One thing that I have noticed is the range is nowhere near the EPA numbers. The build quality is also not the greatest for the price they charge for them. I am however very happy at using it as a commuter car to work, but would never want to take it on a long road trip. Time is to valuable and you only get so much in life.
I work with a guy that has a Tesla. His wife does too. He told me you must have a gasoline / diesel vehicle as well. You cannot only have electric because if you have a family emergency far away or have to haul ass away from some catastrophe / pending disaster you won't get the range with EV. I think EVs are great if you drive short ranges daily and don't mind spending $80K or more for a daily commuter. To each his own. I will keep rocking my RAM 2500 diesel.
This podcast summed up: EV technology is in its infancy. It’s an individual decision as to whether it is superior or not for any given application.
Kevin you are clearly wrong. EV tech in not in its infancy, because it works and well. Yes new tech will be developed just like there is a new Iphone every year or computers get smarter and faster. An electric motor is superior to an internal combustion engine the only thing holding EVs back are people. Question, would you say an old rotary phone is better than your smart phone? ICE cars have had over 100 years to develop and they still can't unlock more than 20-30% of the energy a gallon of gas has. Electric motors are 90% efficient.
@@chrishansel9324 it is in it's infancy when comparing years in use/development (you mention this yourself about ice having 100 years). It is also in it's infancy compared to how much more potential it has. This doesn't mean it's a bad thing just that there are improvements that can be made still. It hasn't peaked like ice has.
@@SasukeUchiha-zu6dw You and I have a different definition of infancy. Did you know that the modern electric vehicle has been around for over ten years and has gotten better every year. 10 year olds don't like being called infants. A 2011 Leaf got 73 miles with a 28 kwh battery pack or 2.6 miles per kw. My car is a 2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV it has a range of 170 and it has a 38kwh battery pack, so that is 4.5 miles per kw. In 9 years EV range has more than doubled and efficiency has gone by 100%. Show me an ICE car that has done that. Oh ya I tow too. Lose about 45 - 50% but so does an ICE car. Batteries and infrastructure need to improve but EVs are here.
@@chrishansel9324 I know they have been around 10 years yes we have a different definition but an EV won't get mad being called an infant as it's an inanimate object. EV fans tend to get mad though. I know they are improving and ice has peaked and won't really improve in a meaningful way. What many people are waiting for is EV to be = to ice in every way including charging times range etc. They don't want to downgrade on anything, they don't want to be forced into it before they are ready. That's the beauty of the free market.
@@SasukeUchiha-zu6dw I'm sorry got the 2011 leaf's pack size wrong, it is 24kwh so that means that it had a higher efficiency of 3 miles per kw. So efficiency only rose by 75% not 100% in 9 years still impressive.
I just lost dad at the end of the video Tommy won Tommy is right electric cars for the city gas car for real life scenarios it is not political when it comes to providing for your family still love TFL awesome channel you guys are real
When I was working my remodeling company I consistently towed 5,000 lbs of tools daily back and forth from home to various jobs for years and would have been hindered by having to charge and monitor a state of charge constantly. On the weekends and holidays i would be able to take the family out in the same vehicle. Why would I want the extra hassle?.... so I could go 0 to 60 real fast. Wow!!..... what a benefit to my business. The problem with this conversation is people who really don't like big trucks want to push the benefits of an electric truck and the ones who actually use their trucks don't want to be limited by the people who really aren't truck people. Buy a $5000 lp generator and when the power goes out your house is automatically powered and you can still drive to get food and supplies.
Not sure if you will be around at this time but the world oil reserves will run out at 2052 no more manufacturing for your kid or grandkids everything you take for granted they won't get... doesn't that bug you
@@lesstevens2370 no it doesn't bother me but what does is a bunch of econuts and politicians trying to guilt and legislate our way out of this problem overnight with technology that doesn't quite muster up to our current needs. The light bulb wasn't created because the government made a law it was create out of necessity by innovation and a person's want for light without oil. So the only way this will work is by someone smarter than you and me to innovate a better way without government help and most likely their financial gain. If we allow our government to get involved it will definitely slow down the process of finding adequate alternatives to oil. So again...no it doesn't bother me because I personally can't change it and no matter how many ev cars you can put on the road and just alter the way we currently use fossil fuels it won't change things until the real brains work out the bugs of the alternative fuels. Funny with a world largely encompassed in water not one of the econuts or government politicians are wanting to talk about or push hydrogen....wonder why? Must not be enough money to be made padding their stock portfolios.
If you towed the 5000 lbs. of tools back and forth daily, that implies that it wasn't long distance towing. Electric pickup trucks are not bad for all towing. They are bad for long distance towing. They are very good for towing around town, and will save you a LOT of money on fuel. Charging at home is not a hassle. It's extremely easy, easier than going to a gas station.
@@dansanger5340yea I saw a video the ford lightning gets better mileage in the city then on the highway it works the other way around compared to gas wind drag is the biggest contributing factor to range loss not weight if your driving 30 40 mph around the city you probably can tow 230 miles charge up every night with out needing to monitor anything just set your charge percent to 80% and go to bed its 2022 computers do amazing things
Because people don't like being FORCED to buy a product that's not ready to replace gas.
How many people buy a truck that almost does everything they need it to do? Tommy is right. I’d rather have the truck that does what I need. If it doesn’t, I’m getting a bigger truck!!
So that means an electric truck doesn't fit your use case.. not that it's a stupid idea.
@@DrewHaughton I never said it was a stupid idea. I’m saying that Roman’s argument about a truck that does 99% of what you need it to do is a bad argument.
Spot on. If I can't tow my camper to the woods. I'll keep my Cummins! Also I bought my 19' Ram 2500 Crew Cab 4x4 Cummins for $47,600 brand new! I can't even go out and buy an electric truck and if I could it will realistically cost me twice as much to purchase. Your talking about electric trucks like they are everywhere and easily obtainable. Lol. The average Joe isn't going to be driving around an electric truck for years.
How can you power the campsite with the Ford lightning if you are almost out of power GETTING to the campsite?! And if that campsite is 75-100 miles away from the nearest charging station? How do you get home? That is the 1% Tommy is talking about.
At several points in this video, Tommy falls into the frame of mind that "People don't need that" or "People only need this". This is a large part of how the divide was created between pro-EV and everybody else. If the product makes sense, it will sell itself = do not presume you know what other people need. Also, in many people's minds the EV represents a loss of control in their life. You can get whatever liquid fuel you want from multitudes of vendors at what price you are willing to pay, also carry extra fuel with you in case you need it. With EVs, you have no choice & you Will pay whatever they want to charge you - sure, today electric fuel is mostly inexpensive, but there is no market control over that. As more EVs are sold, & the additional strain laid upon the grid, you will see electricity prices multiply.
I think arguing from a "needs" position as to the opposition like you stated. People buy and have plenty of things they don't need. But it's not anyone's say what others "need" or how they spend their money including govt.
Beautifully stated
The problem is a lot of the “EV represents a loss of control” is ICE proponents trying to use psychological tactics to convince people they have different needs than they actually have. There’s honestly more control in how people get electric than how they get gas in most places including solar, compare that to gas stations where Big Oil sets prices.
Why I don't like electric cars:
1. I live in an apartment where I would not be able to charge one at home.
2. I like manual transmissions and I don't want to drive an automatic transmission let alone an electric car that has no transmission. I acknowledge that this is a personal nitpick, but if I am paying that much money, I want the car to be how I like it.
3. I do not like driver assist things, and I do not like the idea that my car can be hacked. This is also a problem with most new gas cars, but it is especially prevalent with EVs.
4. I do regularly do long drives. I do not want to have to strategically plan out a route that passes chargers. I know that everywhere I go will have a gas station relatively nearby, and I also know that I can take my two jerry cans with me and get another 10 gallons of gas if I am really worried about being in the middle of nowhere.
5. I like offroading and going out to the middle of nowhere. I have a Wrangler and I use it. I am not a rock crawler that trailers a rig in, I daily drive my Wrangler, it is my only car. I need to be able to make it to where I am going, be able to handle what I am doing, and be able to make it back. There are no EV options for that, the closest would be the Wrangler 4xe, which still uses gas.
6. Most of my driving is highway driving, which is where gas cars shine. Gas cars become more efficient on the highway and EVs become less efficient.
7. I want to be able to work on my car myself. This is becoming more of a problem with gas cars too, but there is basically no modifications or maintenance work you can do with EVs. I change my own oil, I rotate my own tires, I have installed all of the modifications on my Jeep with my dad and my girlfriend helping.
8. Lastly and most importantly, I do not want people to tell me what I can and cannot do. I don't want to have an EV car and all of the EV advocates keep telling me that I will eventually have to have one. When cars took over from horses, we didn't ban horses. You can still have and ride your horse around to this day. EV fanboys want everyone to join their cult and they legitimately believe that they are better than everyone else, yet we are the assholes for telling them to shove off?
I'm with you 110% my friend. I'm a car guy myself I love driving (actually driving, you know with a shifter and 3 pedals in the floor and no nannies) cars and modifying cars. I like tinkering with them always have. I like making them have more power, sound better, drive better, look better, handle better, and ultimately make them faster and make them my own. Ev basically kills the car hobby. No matter how fast they are they are lifeless and soulless and there is no way to modify them for power and you can't tinker with them like that. They kill what hot rodding is all about. If they wasn't the poster child for killing my hobby along with our government who are forcing them on us I wouldn't give a shit less about them or who decides to drive them. It's the fact they're forced on us and I know they're slowly killing my fav hobby that is what I don't like about them. I have 0 interest in them.
I rather have multiple options instead of getting forced into it more options the better than just only one option I agree with it
@@Jbs6187 I would also say the Government does that too tells you what's best for you as well
@@Jbs6187 definitely
This guy gets it
Here is the thing, no one is forcing you into an EV. Yes, new ICE vehicles will be phased out of new vehicle production at some point, but as of yet I have not seen where ICE vehicles will be banned. If the average vehicle on the road is approximately 14 years old, even if they do actually phase out new ICE vehicles in 2035, that gives you until almost 2050 to be average in an ICE vehicle. Electric vehicles are still early in their development, things will get better with time just as they did and still do with ICE vehicles. Give it time, things will get better and at some point, it will most likely make sense for most if not everyone down the road. Given, I still see some horse and buggy’s on the road, so some will still hold on to the tried and true even when they make far less sense.
@@moarpwr4414 I live in New Jersey the Governor for New Jersey has said that ICE vehicles will be banned in 2025 I can't remember the year he said that they would ban them but he did say it so every state is different every state doesn't do the exact same things with other states
Tommy is right on the 1% towing use case driving purchasing decisions. For example, I know a guy that sold his current gen gas heavy duty truck to buy a diesel because his towing range sucked so bad with the gas motor when towing his camper to and from the coast exactly 1 time per year.
Very much agree.
It’s one of the absolute dumbest fighting points..
96 % of Standard Truck buyers don’t tow
74% of truck buyers don’t haul cargo in bed. Ever lol
70% of truck buyers don’t take their truck off road ever
Lest we forget how many vehicles are sold that tow under 3500 lbs or don’t tow at all.
All your coupes , sedans , Jeeps , small suvs etc etc
Stay heavy duty or gas if you wanna tow.
But that doesn’t make the EV “not ready for mainstream lol”
Right! The vast majority of people I know with trucks have either NEVER had a trailer on it or had a trailer on it 2 times in the past 7 years... and most of em barely use the bed, you look under the tonneau cover and you'll see three 2x4s and an old coffee cup that have been in there for the last six months... I even know people that OWN a truck for the "just in case" scenario and you know what they did? They RENTED another truck to haul the trailer long distance cuz they didn't want to put the miles or wear and tear on thier own truck to keep the resale intact!
Agree with Roman, very few trucks ever see a trailer
@@phileasler5401 because you're polling all truck owners? Or is that narrative that's been implanted in your head?
I’m with Tommy on this one. If I want to tow 10% of the time, the lightning is absolutely useless 10% of the time and if I’m going to put 80k into a vehicle it had better be useful 100% of the time.
Amen
There are a few new Bolts for sale in my area for under $30K. To me they are the only affordable EV. Currently I think the hybrid Maverick is the best bang for the buck vehicle if you can get one at MSRP.
Just rent a gas truck Tommy for your once a year trip and enjoy the quiet fast ride and convenience of charging at home the other 99% of the time.
I like engines and I like motors, what I don't like is when the FEDERAL government forced the market to change rather than the public dictating the market.
If certain states want to pass laws restricting certain vehicles, then the citizens of those states are responsible for their choices. But most states are different. They have different economies, they have different infrastructure, they have different needs.
Unfortunately this is political and just like everything else the answer usually is, follow the money.
Right now, the public wants electric trucks so bad there is a 1 to 2 year waiting list for them. Millions of people have gotten line to buy an electric truck, payed deposits, and they still have to wait. How is that not the public dictating the market?
@@BrianMelancon The federal regulation (2035) that demands an end to conventional engines in passenger vehicles is the artificial market. The "demand" for electric vehicles seems high because it only makes up 1% of the market. And the wait list again is forced, what is being produced is in very small quantities. Like I said before, I like a few EVs on the road. I love the tech & theory behind all of it. But I don't want to be forced to buy something that I do not want. I feel the regulation deadline will be extended or possibly dropped. Europe had already requested a 5 year pushback because they cannot meet it. Just my 2 cents.
@@BrianMelancon So the government offering 7500.00 doll hairs for an EV is Not??? Sure helped the government create THE MARKET!
@@carlov.3017 Just say that you’re a conservative Republican that doesn’t like the government dictating what decisions people get to make, unless of course it’s the government telling women they are prohibited from making decisions for their own bodies and livelihoods - I’m sure you’re perfectly fine with that! Lol. Tell a woman she can’t have an abortion makes total conservative sense but telling someone they gotta slow down on beating up the atmosphere is such an abomination. Go figure!
Btw, the government isn’t punishing anyone from buying ICE products. Of course with the constant complaining of inflation and the price of gas, constant pollution from ICE vehicles, etc. the U.S. government would be smart to encourage a method that allows the economy to be more independent and less dependent on oil coming from other countries. Politics aside, EVs are simply more efficient and affective. They make too much sense that you’re rebelling against them because you’re not ready or willing to make the switch - but you don’t have to. Doesn’t mean they aren’t more efficient forms of transportation.
@@carlov.3017 I'm so glad people like you will be around when I finally get to purchase my electric truck. Otherwise, it'd be hard to sell my Hummer. I should throw a "Don't Tread On Me" sticker on it and raise the price a few thousand dollars. I am literally hoping people like you continue to think like you do for at least a few more years. You're awesome. Please continue!
I actually touched a ev-1 in 1999 at Epcot and talked to a GM engineer. Ev driver for 10 years, Lightning Pro coming in about a week
My mom had a Chevette in the early 80s, we love that car! The red pleather seats were scorching hot in the summer and freezing cold/hard as a rock in the winter. Good times.
Consumers had the same arguments about the model T, TV’s, Color TV’s, flat tv’s, home PC’s, laptops, mobile phone, smartphone. Give science and technology time to solve these problems. The free market has really only been working on EV’s for at most 10yrs. 10yrs from now a lot of these “problems” will be resolved.
Damn right and well said to! 👍🏻
We went from cars are for the rich to cars replaced horses for the majority in less than 10 years from the debut of the very first mass produced automobile. Now that we've reached the tipping point of over 5% of all sales being ev. The adoption rate will accelerate exponentially from here.
Even conservative estimates put the U.S. at over 25% ev market share by 2025. Yet if you look at all the new ev only factories, plus battery cell plants being built. It shows by the end of 2025 the U.S. will have enough domestic built cell capacity for 50-60% ev only sales.
I am beginning to wonder if making evs, ev cells and chargers. Is going to be directly responsible along with us building out solar/wind/geo thermal and renewable plants, plus mining for all of that. Will help in creating a new American based industrial renaissance. 🤔
@@4literv6 exactly!
If in ten years the problems aren't solved will the mandates go away? Because that isn't the free market
At 10:00 in how much heat does it generate to produce a Kilowatt at the Coal plant where the juice is produced for the EV?
Coal fired generators average 30% efficiency.
@@proppo4924 Yea, even worse for there argument.
Only America is still useing coal even China is decommissioning there coal fired plants
Natural gas lng fired power is 65% efficient
@@lesstevens2370 getting better!
Here's the problem, the $50,000 by purchasing the solar panels can eliminate the electricity bill. That is money that you will not have to spend. Purchasing the diesel did not change anything. Your needs will not change. The electric vehicle also lowers the operating costs so that difference also makes someone more liquid, and it is possible to recoup the costs from the difference.
If there is limited towing, that means a second vehicle is needed. Two vehicles can be turned into 1 unless you have 2 drivers for less than the cost of the 2 vehicles used. This also means lower insurance probably. What was lost? 2 passengers with the primary vehicle being a SUV or van. That van or SUV was probably purchased for the occasional hauling, which the truck will still do. That hauling also moved the efficiency of the gas-powered to the electric truck. The fact that Tommy needs to buy a trim and a range extender battery that only give 30 miles does not mean that all people need to buy that trim and battery. Towing package, software, and power required is $45,000. Used van that gives viability right now is about $30,000. There is also no subsidy. The truck needs to be at $15,000 to reach the full price. Remove the subsidy and that truck needs to be $7000 or less to run it. Once you are in that price range, the gas-powered truck is going to be the same as the electric truck with a lot more maintenance.
Also need to factor in battery pack replacement.
Solar panels don't eliminate the bill, when the sun don't shine ypur using grid power, and if ypu have gas powered anything in the house ypur paying for that, and if ypu use more power than ypur panels can make during the sun then ypur being charged that. And at night your on grid time cause ypu have no battery back ups at this time for most homes........
@@zacknelson8918 Your claim is that people have not even been paid after going solar. That is false. That is even with no battery backup. With a battery backup, your claim makes even less sense.
@@LucasLeCompteMusic Do you factor in the fact that your car is going to need the engine replaced? I've changed my fuel pump as well. Did you factor in your coolant and lubricant? Did you factor in the cost difference in terms of cost difference in fuel? Did you factor in the fact that you will need to replace spark plugs and the assembly behind it? Did you factor in the fact that you might need to replace the fuel injector? Did you factor in the fact that your car still has a computer inside it that might need to be replaced? Did you factor in the fact that you might need to replace your transmission? Do I need to keep going?
Pretty sure currently replacing those things on a normal car is cheaper than a 20k battery pack. Also pretty sure diesel machines are used to mine and transport the lithium that is in the battery. Also you have to look at this from the lens of someone living in a poor country. A lot of people can fix and repair older cars, that will be impossible with current EVs.
A good chunk of people hate EVs entirely because of misguided politics. An overlapping chunk hate EVs because they hate change. That mostly covers the people who hate EVs. Then there are the people who simply think that EVs are not for them. Some of them have an informed opinion, and some don't.
I agree with Tommy about the 1% thing. I work from home and have a F250 diesel because I use it for pulling our camper on the weekends, pulling a boat, or picking up supplies at the local box store. We take my wife's car any time we're doing "regular" stuff and it could *potentially* be replaced by an EV. Even when I didn't work from home, I only worked 10 minutes away and didn't mind poor mileage in the F250 when I'm still only having to fill up every few weeks. I've thought about getting rid of it and renting if I need a truck, but I use the truck often enough that I would be losing money after the first couple of months of the year. I'm also the type of guy that will pack food to take with me on a trip so that I don't have to stop very often along the way. I really don't like the idea of extra hours being added to my trips. If they could make some type of system where a modular battery got swapped out in a few minutes to give you a full charge, then I would probably be all for that as long as the range was not prohibitive.
You didn't say how far you tow. Many folk I know only tow 30-40 miles. A few tow 80-90 miles. The F150 can do that.
Question: Does the F150 Lightening HAVE to be wirelessly connected to operate? I can take an ICE truck and rip out the 4g/5g modem and the truck runs fine. Is that the case for an electric vehicle?
No…why would you even think that?
I like watching you guys go back and forth. I am a ford guy and currently already own an older ford truck that I use for towing campers. Taking cows to the sale and hauling hay. It’s paid for and gets the job done. However with gas prices high I would love to have either an electric F150 or a little maverick hybrid to daily drive because 80 percent of the time I am usually just hauling around stuff in the bed like tools gas cans trash feed bags fertilizer etc. and either of those two would work great for that.
The public "hates" electric cars because they are being forced on the public.
If your life and wallet work with electric car then you are happy but for the rest of us let the best tool for the job do the job.
Long haul; diesel, comuter truck with towing on the weekend; plug in hybrid v8, turbo small displasment or hydrogen, commuter car; eletric
who is forcing a electric vehicle on you. Jesus there is 100 times more choices for ice
Roman: "Trucks are now the family hauler even though the bed is empty most of the time."
I agree but how is that different from the 60s when sedans were huge and hauled the family and their stuff (cavernous trunks) or the 70s when wagons and vans were popular, or the 80s when mini-vans and hatchbacks were popular or since when SUVs/crossovers were popular? Americans have always wanted vehicles that meet not only their needs but their wants (vacation, golfing, the beach, the lake, etc.). A pickup is one of the few vehicles versatile enough to do it all, particularly now when they can be as ritzy as a Cadillac. What's wrong with that?
YES, if I am spending my own money tens of thousands of dollars it needs to meet my needs AND wants. It has to meet the 99% and the 1% edge cases. It has to be just as good as my current vehicle in specs (I'm not paying for a downgrade). If I can only afford 1 vehicle it has to do it all. Obliviously if govt or pro EV folks want to buy me an EV as my main daily driver that's a different story.
I much rather have the hybrid f150 with pro power rather than the lighting any day. I agree with Tommy 100%. Love seeing these two debate. Great podcast.
This was great. As a gear head, I love the tech of electric. I love my diesel excursion. I daily ride a motorcycle to work and love it. I enjoy my 1950s military vehicles. I tow once a month local. Love it all.
How do you two leave these pod cast and shut off the arguing? Dinner must be rough lol
Tommy was making some excellent arguments both for and against electric vehicles and he really seems to grasp both mindsets very well. It's just a real shame that he kept getting cut off and every time he started winning the argument he got talked over and slapped with the "I'm dad so I'm right, I'm older so I'm right" arguments from across the table. By the end of the podcast it felt like watching a discussion with me and my dad where it didn't matter how much data I had, how much research I did, or what the facts were; it all came down to dad saying "well, I disagree and you can't change my mind because I raised you so you can't know more than me."
Keep at it Tommy, the facts always win in the end, and I say that as someone that finds electric cars to be far to sterile and boring to drive compared to my manual geared ICE vehicles.
Roman cuts everyone off when he is losing an argument or placed in an uncomfortable position. Similar to my dad 😑
They both cut each other off.
Usually, those people who want you to not talk about politics want to use politics against you after you disarm yourself.
Exactly! Thanks for that point. Well done
yep, you know when they have to repeatedly say "politics aside", they're stuck in quicksand politics and they can't get out...
starts with the disclaimer of no political talk, proceeds to discuss political viewpoints.
Exactly!
57:00 Roman nailed every reason why a Lightning should be the go to for every day use. Brilliant statement. And Tommy is completely right. People are that short sighted. A non business truck buyer will buy a pick up for the 1% of time they will tow. We are in trouble.
I'm with Tommy on a lot of these subjects, EVs are great for the right person who has the right needs. And it's getting better, if companies can keep this direction EVs will get way better in the decades to come.
So you're actually with both of them. The diff they has was to the reality of truck use.
Keep your electric cars and let me keep my gas car, it is that simple
Difference in horse n buggy times compared to now is that you could still ride your horse (and still can), meanwhile now we are being forced through the almighty dollar.
Honest disagreement with well reasoned impassioned arguments on both sides, I absolutely love this podcast, the father/son repertoire works. Keep em' coming
I love electric cars.....especially when they are stuck on the side of the road because the owners are ignorant.
Hybrid is a better concept, gets best of both worlds, ev at low speeds and stop and go around towns, gas/diesel for towing and highway speeds
Plug in hybrid is the way to go. My Honda Clarity has 47 miles electric range. I never use gas except for long trips. 47 miles of range costs me 2.29 to charge at home.
@@troyp9485 yep... we've bought three different PHEVs now, from three different automakers...
Right now we have two vehicles in our household - a 2012 5.0 F150 and a 2017 Ford Transit. Both average about 15mpg. Driving over 2000 miles a month, our fuels costs are above $900.
To me the Lightning is too power-hungry to be an errand-mule, and doesn't quite cut it for the towing aspect. I'm very close to putting a deposit on a Bolt EUV to cover all those errands that are probably 80% of our mileage.
As nice as the top tier EV's are, they're quite a bit too expensive for me.
I can agree with you, and drive a similar 2k or more per month. Even at $4.25 per gallon, your cost is around $0.28 per mile for fuel. Electric in my area is $0.26 per kWh (with all fees etc) which breaks down to approximately $0.07 per mile in my EV6. TFL and other channels are getting about 2 mile per kWh, bringing it to about $0.13 per mile at that electric costs. However, I have gone to EA stations where they can charge by kWh or by the minute depending on the state. I have had it cost less than $0.10 per kWh in my Kia EV6, letting it cost less than $0.02 per mile (best case scenario), way better than I got in my F350 at $0.43 per mile when I traded it in. Fuel costs have come down, and it would be $0.39 per mile currently(best case currently in my area). Getting an errand mule is a great idea if it works for you and I fully understand your choice. Making the full change while making some compromise’s has worked for me. When EV trucks get a bit better, and more readily available, I will most likely make the jump from an EV car to and EV truck. Here is hoping the Lightning V2 gets better.
Hate the two party system because I vote Republican but don't agree with them on everything. Roman is spot on about the Leaf and Compliance cars setting back EVs. I was always under the impression they were slow, boring, and took forever to charge. Fast forward 10ish years, I now own a model 3 P and LOVE it. Electric cars are definitely the future. Now with that said there are still a lot of factors to consider and they may not be for everyone right now. If you need a heavy duty truck your going to get an ICE. If you leave in an apartment with no charging and compute to work that provides no charging it may be better to get an ICE unless your ok waiting at a supercharger. It really comes down to your lifestyle. Everyone should be able to have a choice and not be shamed or have their car/truck vandalized because of it.
Psychologically, I think you hit the nail on the head. The release of electric vehicles at a time when living expenses, including gas, are their highest price ever feels like manipulation and an agenda by certain political parties rather than natural market progress and capitalism. Anybody that is pushed, will resist. 100%.
It’s not like electric vehicles just recently appeared.
EV’s have been around for a while but the government pushing us to buy them is recent
@@philipcoulson7477 Actually the incentives have been around for ten years.
I’m not talking about incentives when I refer to government pressure.
@@philipcoulson7477 What pressure?
Years ago I read a book called “Get a Horse.” It was about the early days of the automobile, and most people thought motorists were stupid, since they spent so much time at the side of the road fixing their cars. The conventional wisdom was that getting a horse was the best way to avoid all of the auto breakdowns.
Guess the horse people were right. ICE is not going to last 2 centuries.
Well, now the cycles repeats itself, just in a different way
Roman doesn't care about range or time required to charge because when he really needs to go long distances and has no time he can just take another truck from the fleet, as has happened when attempting to join an overland expo with the Model X, am I right Tommy?
I’m betting that we’ll hear lots of whining about range and charging coming all the way from Alaska soon….
Hey Roman, they have these things called generators, I have two Yamaha inverter generators for when power goes out.
$50k would buy you a massive solar facility, like a 20-25kw system. Most houses could only fit between 7 and 15 kw of panels on the roof. 15 kw would be in most cases enough to completely offset household and transportation usage and would be a 20-30k investment. Roll that into your mortgage and amortize it over the life of the asset and it's a hundred or two per month.
I very rarely agree with Tommy but he’s right on this one: towing is the kitchen of a truck not the pool.
Roman, the Texas power grid is not "the worst" and unreliable. The grid is regularly servicing record loads with the countries highest mix of renewable energy resources, and at some of the most competitive rates in the nation. Once in a century events can and have caused problems for every electric grid in the US, and those lessons learned have made each stronger.
There are TH-cam channels just showing people "keying" Teslas. Some people just can't handle change.
Biggest difference is free market, horse and buggy were replaced because the market said they wanted a faster and easier way to get from point a to b. As a result other industries stepped in when they saw there was a dollar to be made and slowly everything switched over. Thinking you can legislate this kind of change or force it to happen rather than let the market decide is a very dangerous way of thinking. Cheap energy is what gives us as a developed nation the ability to create and innovate, or adapt which is what we humans are good at. Forcing that change as a result of policy is going to result in the opposite and cause a plethora of other problems. If they are better let them get there on their own as a natural result of them beating out the negatives of the ICE. I love electric cars but for my family of 8 not really an option at this point.
Exactly! Well said
YES, if I am spending my own money tens of thousands of dollars it needs to meet my needs AND wants. It has to meet the 99% and the 1% edge cases. It has to be just as good as my current vehicle in specs (I'm not paying for a downgrade). If I can only afford 1 vehicle it has to do it all. Obliviously if govt or pro EV folks want to buy me an EV as my main daily driver that's a different story.
I think 95% of the time an electric truck would be perfect for me. I do have a 20’ camper that I tow but it weighs around 3,000 lbs. even if the range was bad with the camper, i feel I could make it work with the handful of trips I take with it every year. What kills me is the cost of buying the electric truck. I just cannot justify that cost. That being said I day dream about how quiet that lighting probably is and the lack of regular maintenance on that truck.
But you'll end up spending $25,000, or more, for gasoline or diesel. I just spent $140 for an oil change and 17 gallons of gasoline for my ICE car. I could have driven over 5040 miles in an EV for the money.
For me it’s about an electrical grid that’s not ready for everyone to have an electric car. Looking at California with its brownouts and blackouts for instance. Not to mention if you have more than one car.
Picking up my BMW i3 in Colorado next week. Will be road tripping back to Virginia after a visit with friends.
I got no problem with electrics but (forcing) people to drive electrics and banning ICE cars is not a good idea ,its stupid
Waiting for a plug in hybrid pickup with 240 volt inverter to replace my 2017 Ridgeline and my gas generator. F150 hybrid with 7.2 KW is closest to my needs but the battery is too small and it’s not plug in.
I’m not opposed to buying electric and the sooner I am personally no longer tied to the pump the better but what scares me is the potential for more brownouts and blackouts from an electrical grid that struggles to meet our needs, especially is high population communities.
We had a big storm this summer here in Ontario and some 400,000 people had no power for almost a week. Thankfully it wasn't another ice storm in the winter or things definitely would have been worse.
1 EV soaks up the same power as multiple houses, we simply do not have the infrastructure to handle the drain applied by them. Maybe nuclear power may offset some of the issues but we still have transmission lines as a weak point and there are millions of miles that need to be upgraded to handle to juice or else 🔥 like California
five minutes at the pump vs five hours at the charger.
No-brainer Sherlock
@@TheGecko213 First of all, no EV takes 5 hours to charge at a station
Secondly, I can't fill my tank up at home, you can an EV. Keep it charged up at night, when you're literally sleeping. It only affects driving 300+ miles, and you're not doing that every day, else I can guarantee you you're spending more on fuel than your house...
@@coryernewein The average Ontario household uses 9,500 kwh per year, and they drive an average of 15,200 kilometers per year. To drive those kilometers on electricity would be an additional 4,560 kwh per year. If they charge at home during off-peak hours, that would cost them about $400/ year.
@@steinwaymodelb and in a perfect world we would have let EVs evolve along with ICE vehicles, unfortunately that is not the world we live in. People won't charge at off peak hours, hell people still fuel up in the morning knowing full well the price is likely to be a couple cents cheaper in the evening (atleast in Barrie and other commuter towns). Now on top of that, tell folks who scrape by with 2003 KIA's who can only afford to toss in 15$ every couple days that they need to pay to have their home wiring upgraded to charge their car, or for the property management to up the rent to recoop the costs.
We just aren't ready for them to be the main source of travel for most of us, I live in rural Ontario and have a 10,000w generator hooked into my panel because storms happen and food spoils. Our power is pretty good and only goes out during large storms but brownouts happen, and if by some chance everyone was charging even in off-peak hours it would be a huge stress on the grid. So does everyone get a staggered designated charging time to avoid that situation? What if I'm too sick to get up and plug in my car, am I just screwed until my next allotted time comes around, perhaps an extra fee to jump back in line or maybe a certain number of exemptions per year are allowed?
All of this just boils down to the simple fact that EVs due to corporate greed are in their infancy and will get much, much better. For now though they should not be heralded as being greener than grass and more efficient than an electric kettle(which is nearly 100% efficient minus that silly little LED lmao).
Cheers sir, always keep learning and improving🤙
What if the lightning used the frunk for a small diesel with generator, enough to keep up with electrical use (like current trains). An amazing perfect FULL use truck for everything. Only use the diesel when long trip towing!!
I think your idea is good but I think the guys have said before that the current ev tech doesn’t allow for external charging and driving at the same time
What about charging at San Diego electric (home) rates?
I've owned 2 homes in my last 33 years of life and have yet to need to power my house from an external source . I'm sure it does happen but it's not going to be very common.
I'm in the middle on this but my specific use case for a truck is towing my camper and long distance road trips. I have a GTI as a daily driver and we have an SUV for hauling the kids. Electric trucks aren't there for me yet, specifically for my use, but they are definitely in a usable place for at least half of truck buyers. A lot of the people at the campsites with smaller campers only travel 200-300 miles and would be fine with an electric truck. Our next family vehicle will be electric since it fits that use case perfectly of city driving. I don't know if I'd be replacing my car any time soon with electric as I'd like to start going to the track again and electric just isn't there for track driving either.
So it got really hot here in Texas over 100f every day now and I'm staring to really consider the overtemp protection and remote AC control of my Tesla as a must have. Not only is it more pleasant when you go back to your car you can keep things in your car you normally could not. Pets, musical instruments, chocolate candy, groceries, anything that could be damaged by temperature extremes or rapid changes. This also includes the materials your cars interior is made of. You car will last longer and stay nicer (read higher resale value) if you can control the interior temperature.
You can't fill up the lightning at home unless you pay a lot for a level 2 charger. Have fun charging the lightning on 110/120 outlet.
Just chill. EV's and ICE can exist simultaneously people. There are pros and cons to both technologies after all. Your current living situation, finances and needs will dictate which works better for you as an individual. As time marches on however, I suspect EV shortcomings (price, range, charge time, infrastructure, grid limits etc) will most certainly be overcome and "eventually" supplant most ICE-based transportation. Give it time though... sheesh. I love both the current ability and future potential of electric vehicles, but these government mandated 5-10 year deadlines are ridiculously shortsighted and unrealistic.
If you value your time and want to road trip an EV, don’t buy an F150 Lightning. Buy a Taycan, Kia, Hyundai or Tesla EV which will all charge way quicker on a miles added per minute of charging basis. For proof watch this channel, Kyle’s Out of Spec and Tesla Bjørn’s channels for lots of evidence that fast charging efficient cars with decent sized batteries road trip at essentially the same speed as gas cars. This all assumes you’re driving a little faster than the speed limit in al cases.
without a nuclear power grid electric vehicles are irrelevant.
I agree
Burning coal and gas to get green EV cars is counterintuitive and and a fraud on the environment.
Electric cars will not be viable till Nuke plants are widespread. It's the only way to make EV workable.
I think the biggest take-away from this episode is that "lifestyles" determine what vehicle(s) you buy. there are pros' and cons' to everything: electric vehicles are really efficient, with range drawbacks and gas and diesel are the inverse. Although, I think the most important thing to remember is that technology will evolve and progress w/ solutions and inventions allowing the "switch" to become easier in time.
Chevette wheelbase is around 95, bolt is around 105. Length is almost the same at 163. Width is around 61 to 69. The main difference us the Bolt is taller.
People don’t like electric cars because all of the ones that promised to be affordable are either impossible to get or marked up right now. For me it’s charging times for sure. I don’t love teslas screen and interiors, especially for all of that money. I have solar panels, I would totally buy and electric daily driver if they weren’t being marked up. No point in spending all that money just to save less money… My old beater car saves way more money than buying electric right now.
When an electric car can charge in less than 30 mins at any or at least most chargers I’ll be more interested.
You know you plug in at night and its charged in the morning full tank every morning you only need to use a dcfc on road trips and tesla does charge up under 20 min look it up on TH-cam out of spec motoring you dont sit at charger till 100% on a road trip you charge until you have enough range to take you to the next charger he has done cannonball runs with multiple evs 1200 plus miles and it was mostly 1 hr difference from gas
@@lesstevens2370 it’s only a matter of time before power companies price gouge too
Am I missing something? Are ICE cars suddenly exempt from dealer markups?
@@lesstevens2370 almost no electric brands pull off pleasant cannonball runs lol. I drive a plug in hybrid with a level 2 charger and solar plus Tesla power walls. I understand how to plug a car in lol.
There is no financial benefit for most people to switch to EVs when they are 60 plus thousand dollars. And the fact that many charging stations are not convenient and do not charge at the max rates they claim. Plus the fact that many EV companies don’t charge as fast as they claim. I can’t picture my kids waiting an hour and a half for a Rivian to charge up from 10-80 percent which plenty of owners are reporting at public charging stations. Rivian doesn’t even have good battery preconditioning software yet. Plus it’s more than my raptor.
The question was why to people hate EVs. I don’t, but the only one I would consider right now would be a Porsche Taycan. And it could not be my only car, and it would not save me money haha.
@@lesstevens2370 your talking to a guy who had a cyber truck reservation for like 3 years, a Rivian res for two years and a lightning res for two years. The ford lightning pro would probably be a winner if you could get one, but the dealers were literally making them unaffordable. I think it will be a few years out. The cyber truck might actually never exist, and the Rivian drives incredible, but idk not worth it for me. Rivian is a brand that is definitely not there yet imo. Teslas? No thanks, too expensive, and they aren’t my bag even though they realistically have the best and most charging stations along where I road trip to.
I think the Best of both worlds would be a plug-in hybrid pickup hopefully someone makes it soon
Most lawn companies are small one man operations who can't afford the Ford Lightning, the bigger lawn companies would not buy the Lightning because they purchase trucks that have large beds to haul away debris.
Someone said about the Lightning I am buying, "that looks like the boss's truck". It's good to be the boss! HA!
Grant's road trip was a bad example, but also a good example. That same 1200 mile trip in my Model 3 LR is ~2.5 hours of charging, less if I can charge at a hotel overnight. Divide that into 2 days, that ~1 hour of charging is nothing to me. Even in a gas vehicle I would probably be stopped for at least 30 minutes for quick pit stops, but realistically more when stopping for lunch. But I'm also not an iron-butt type and I get really antsy to get out and walk around after 2-3 hours anyway.
But that just goes to show what a decent charging infrastructure and car can do. Electrify America and the F150 aren't sufficient for road tripping really long distances.
Tommy is absolutely right on all points. Tommy just ask your dad how much he likes and F150 Platinum, an ICE truck that has limited towing and also happens to cost over 100K and it seems everyone has one! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Airstream and other companies are working on trailers to help with the battery range problem. Airstream has a trailer concept right now that has a battery of it's own and a drive system that helps with the fuel economy.
To those who are complaining about charging infrastructure, yes it is a huge hurdle to overcome... but that exact argument was made 100 years ago when cars were becoming a thing. "Where are you going to get gasoline? There's barely any stations". Horse and Buggy was the norm, and Henry Ford's banker even told him that the automobile was just a fad, and that horse and buggy would live on. Are any of you riding in a buggy these days?
Yes, it's gonna take time. "But government mandates" is a moot point, because there's many things mandated by governments that have only helped to improve your life. You enjoy energy efficient machines that help to keep your electrical bill down, right? Well, I'll tell you right now, it wasn't at the kindness of manufactures hearts that they strive for efficiency, governments mandate efficiencies to them for sales.
So get your panties out of a twist, buy gas cars for another 15 years or so, and let the industry move forward. Battery tech's gonna improve, just like your engine has over the last 10 to 20 years. EVs are the future of automobiles, and if that upsets you, keep your gas car as long as you can. It only affects the sale of new cars, which knowing most people, you'll be fine for the next 20 to 30 years buying used vehicles anyways.
The US needs an entire new grid. Our Grid has a rating of D. It cant handle ACs in the summer I dont think its ready for a lot of EVs charging.
@@LucasLeCompteMusic commiefornia is like an F- grid ours fails every summer
excellent reply, Xyler! Perhaps the best comment here! One problem with cars made by traditional automakers like Volvo, GM, etc., who've said that they're moving rapidly toward all-electric cars only, is that the parts supply for older ICEVs will rapidly dry up when their ICEVs are no longer produced -- and that will make buying a new ICEV much less attractive. Once this gets accelerating (more BEVs made, fewer ICEVs made), the desire to buy a new ICEV will get less attractive very quickly, and that will spur the change even faster (as it did with horses vs. cars a century ago, aided by the rapid build-out of fueling infrastructure, where many new jobs will also appear).
Govt mandates aren't a moot point because if the time when they kick in the tech isn't ready there is going to be some problems and some politicians and mandates will need to be removed
Great arguments both of you! I gotta say Tommy has a point with towing. Awesome episode.
I hate having electric cars pushed on me by coercion through politics. I will buy whatever is best for MY lifestyle. The government forcing our hand will only lead to people digging in their heels.
If its such a great thing why cant you just tell me about it and id buy first chance?.... oh cuz its a bad deal....
How is the government forcing your purchase in any way? EV adoption is only 3% of new car sales. Lol
@@jameshalbirt5807 because government policies are coercing auto manufacturers to transition to all-electric vehicles. California is going to outlaw the sale of all new gas-powered cars in the state by 2035. And as the biggest market in the US, as California goes, the rest of the country goes. So auto manufacturers have to stop producing or investing in gas powered cars to switch over to EVs, because of these policies. Soon, we won't have a choice. EVs will be the only option, and it will have been forced on us by the government.
@@runningwithspoons9223 buy one out of state? You know. Like abortions.
@@jameshalbirt5807 I'll ignore your snarky and irrelevant comment. You missed a major point: as California goes, the rest of the country goes. Auto manufacturers can't afford to exclude California, the biggest market in America, from their consumer base. So, they're going to switch over to only producing EVs, especially once other states pass similar laws to California. And once the manufacturers are not producing gas powered cars anymore, ALL states won't have a choice anymore
For your point about long term storage food or ar15s... A bucket of 25year food that could feed you for a month is a couple hundred bucks. And an ar15 is also only a few hundred bucks.
Also, I do have solar panels.
I have a 1500 Silverado and the last time I towed something with it was 3 years ago. For the vast majority of users this will meet 99% of their needs.
I was speaking to a fellow at our neighborhood mailbox yesterday afternoon about his Jeep Cherokee TrailHawk, BTW nice vehicle…
He mentioned he also owns a Tesla model 3 but refuses to take it on a long trip. Reason for this is it’s a PITA to sit waiting for it to change up, thus the TrailHawk.
I have nothing against electric cars and trucks. It's the way they are talked about. I want the truth about how green they are. You surely know what I'm talking about but you also skim right over the facts. The true long term costs are also skimmed over. I am 70 years old and have never bought a new car by choice. Buying used electric leaves a lot to be desired ( batteries). I drive very little these days and am a mechanic. So old used gasoline cars and trucks save me a lot of money. Please address these issues more often.
Tfl I think you are missing the point why people have concerns about ev vechiels it's the charging times and distance they can go, towing and not towing. EV Vechiels are powerful and can bet most vehicles, every one knows that but it's charging times, for most people.
The entirety of the charging system not just the last issue of standing there charging your car for a day ...
electric prices have been going up up and up at this rate gas will be a lot cheaper quite soon in many places...
@@insiainutorrt259 and hear in Australia government is going to tax you for the amount of miles you do to pay for the roads and infrastructure. And no one is talking about the cost of replacing the battery. The problems with the Ford mustang ev hasn't been mentioned on tfltruck why.
YES, if I am spending my own money tens of thousands of dollars it needs to meet my needs AND wants. It has to meet the 99% and the 1% edge cases. It has to be just as good as my current vehicle in specs (I'm not paying for a downgrade). If I can only afford 1 vehicle it has to do it all. Obliviously if govt or pro EV folks want to buy me an EV as my main daily driver that's a different story.
For me, an EV has a place in my garage. We have a 1/2 ton gas 6.2L PU for pulling horses, carrying larger items, etc., my “lifetime” SUV for long remote trips, back country adventures, etc., and now have an EV on order for around town runs - which account for about 85% of all of our mileage. We’re lucky that our garage will (barely) hold 3 vehicles, and that our super off-peak power rates make EV charging a small fraction of the cost of fuel. If I could only have one vehicle, I don’t think I could make an EV work, unless I could reliably rent a gas vehicle suited for our particular need.
100% agree with Tommy at 39:00 mark. If you cannot charge at home - DO NOT BUY AN EV! Using public fast charging destroys any financial benefit that comes along with owning an EV. The best part of owning and commuting with an EV is that I never have to go out of my way to get "fuel". When I have to drive my F150, getting gas feels like the biggest waste of my time now.
59:00 mark - once again 100% side with Tommy about the truck.
I commute in a 2013 Leaf every day, absolutely love my EV! But I will keep my Ecoboost F150 until the government pries the keys from my cold dead hands, because I own the truck for sole purpose of towing my ski boat and my camper trailer and I need to be able to go 300-400 miles while towing without wasting all my vacation time charging.
Hi Tommy i really like your arguments, but this time I’m agree with Roman
I don’t know how is in colorado, but here in South Texas every day i see more house installing Solar Panels on the roofs, and even if is expensive the solar panels finance them for 20 years, and that pretty much transfer your utility bill form your power utility company to the solar panel company, and that make the transition affordable for most of the home owners, but most of this home owner don Ghent the power wall because is way to expensive.
So on Romas point of view gettin a lightning could work very good because for the price of the truck even if you get the platinum your still are paying less than the power walls and you can use your truck, and in case of emergency you have electricity, now can you imagine been able to get the pro version even with the smaller battery.
1000% with Roman on this one.... The self sufficiency of electric trucks.... Ill suffer that 1 time a year we tow to the beach for the 363 more days of the year I can use my truck for more than just going from one place to another I can use it to be completely off grid... Basically taking my comfort of living everywhere I go.... Cooking steak on an electric griddle at work 👌🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲
You might even have only 1 vehicle if said vehicle was a truck that needs no gas.
What if you live in a apartment instead of a house, where do you charge?
that power outage in texas it was a fi5o with the powerboost or what ever its called in the box,it was a regular f150,not a lighting
I agree with Tommy's finishing argument. I know so many people trade in their cars for that one case scenario they think they need it for. We can all live with a Toyota Corolla to get us from point A to point B but we have different needs of our vehicles. Weather and usage defines what cars and trucks we buy.
Roman, Batteries do not use any rare earth elements. If anyone knows otherwise please provide an example. Perhaps you are thinking of the magnets used in EV motors, they do use rare earth elements but not all EV motors use these magnets.
I think the RAV4 Prime is the perfect family hauler and daily driver if you need it all in one vehicle. Having an EV for daily driving and a gas truck or SUV for the weekends would be the best setup.
I use to not be a fan of electric vehicles mostly because I'm not fan of Musk and the Tesla fanbois, but after giving a MacheE a chance, neither my wife nor I are ever going back to gas engines if we can avoid it. EVs are just fun to drive and I love charging at home. I have a truck which I use for towing short distances and hauling stuff from the hardware store, I do not need the towing range. EVs are not for everyone, that's a fact, but I do think a lot of people that hate them are more vocal in general.
You’re doing what I hope to do. Have an EV for every day use. A gas vehicle for long trips over 200 miles which is maybe once every few months.
I agree that Musk has turned a lot of people off of Teslas (I'd never buy one because of him), but thankfully we're getting lots of better BEVs coming to market every year now...
I fully agree with Tommy 100% on all counts. If I am towing anything, I am not waiting hours for a charger and an hour or so at the charger itself. (Esp) if I am towing a 6k lbs. camper for 86 miles.
Ev's won't be cheaper long term. How so? Road wear & tear taxes, and electric use charges on your recharging costs (that are currently not a factor but absolutely will be once the government sees is big enough adoption to justify the taxes on recharging.
Even if I use an EV for short distances only. I will be recharging with much more regularity than if I have a gas car/truck with 20+ gallon gas tank on it.
Solar systems typically add to the value of your home dollar for dollar and there is currently a 26% federal tax rebate on the cost that's dropping to 22% at the end of the year, you also don't need a battery, if you live in a place where the power grid is stable you can just sell your electricity to the power company when your not using it.
Very interesting points and interesting insight into the American perspective. I was quite surprised by the point about individualism and independence. The hosts did a great job bouncing the ideas and going quite far down the rabbit hole.
2:38 ... be careful about exaggerating in anything... I don't think that I can fill a 24-gallon Sierra tank in 3-5 minutes... (the point about how much longer it takes to charge a BEV than to fill up an ICEV on gas is still on point, of course)
Also, just wanna say, the difference in perspective between Roman and Tommy is fantastic in debating the pros and cons of EVs vs ICE.
Having owned an electric car for a few years, much of the debate is red vs blue nonsense. Pick the right tool for the right job. Electric for in town or short commutes, extremely cheap to run, leave the house with a full tank every time, and low maintenance. Buy a truck for distance and towing, electric just doesn't add up or compare in these settings.
Exactly, but then politicians get involved and people aren't able to pick the right tool for the job
Very very very very many cant affford a home much less a car that costs as much even less 2 of those.....
@@insiainutorrt259 Yes a good point, when cost is a primary factor picking a the right tool is even more important. An 80k ev truck, or no way to charge at home makes even less sense.
@@SasukeUchiha-zu6dw I wouldn’t define tax credits that are rapidly running out as over the top government influence.
@@ryanfraley7113 I was referring to the mandates by some states to only allow new electric cars by a certain date
Because they push these EVs on us without a proper charging station infrastructure…. It’s honestly clear as water. I’d love an ev. But until someone makes the charging stations as abundant as gas I’ll never purchase one.
And recharge time improvement along with range plus lower the price then I’ll buy too
If you own your home, you own a charging station that you will mainly use and is cheaper than a charging station is. That was the point of the fact that during the Model-T farm owners fueled their own. There were no gas stations. You are claiming you will definitely need an infrastructure that you probably will not, but the infrastructure will change as the number of electric vehicles grows. 200+ mile range on a full charge means that you will be home before you have to charge.
Chicken or the egg.
@@ronaldking1054
So only good for local commute ?
EV = TOO EXPENSIVE TO BUY, TO LONG TO CHARGE AND TO SHORT A RANGE TO DRIVE ON ROAD TRIPS.