Fagin Character Case Study - Disney's Oliver and Company | The Fangirl
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ม.ค. 2023
- Let's chat about Disney's Bronze Era finale - Oliver & Company - and try to unravel and understand the strange vagrant character, and Dodger's owner, Fagin, and why he's still a villain despite the ending.
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There is a little hint that Fagan might have a gambling problem near the end of the movie during Jenny's birthday party when him and Winston are watching some kind of wrestling match and it looks like Winston won some kind of bet between them about that match. Fagan then dodges payment when he says "oh look at the time" and that's when he leaves with the dogs and the movie ends
There was supposed to be a scene showing how Fagin lost all his loan money gambling but they cut it for time.
This movie is very underrated in my opinion.
I think so too
The whole dog pick pocket thing reminds me of a reddit story I heard about a cat lady teaching the local strays to bring her shiny things for extra food. Literal cat burglars.
Fagin was the villain from the original novel by Dickens (Oliver Twist), that's for certain.
Fagin has a gambling problem. You can tell because later in the film when he and the butler were watching a boxing match. The match ends and he tries skipping out on paying up to the butler. More than likely Sykes is a loanshark.
Sykes and his pair of Dobermans Roscoe and Desoto are THE BIGGEST REASON why Oliver And Company is a CULT CLASSIC They were always my favorite characters The Subway Chase is SIMPLY SUPERB!!!!!!!
I always assumed Fagin had a gambling problem and that's what he borrowed [then lost] money for. at the end of the movie you see him betting on a boxing match in Jenny's with her butler[?]/caretaker. then he bails with out paying.
4:25
A story I need to share. My father for about a year worked in DC, and on his commute via the Metro, every day he would be approached by people asking for money. He would always tell them, "I won't give you money, but there's a restaurant just down the street. I would be happy to take you to lunch." Every day for a year! How many ever took him up on the offer?
Only ONCE!
Now, it turned out that my dad was running late for a meeting, but he took the man to a Wendy's, and after waiting in line long enough to be sure he really did just want food, he handed him a 5 (add about 45 years of inflation) and told him to get whatever he wanted.
When I lived in Atlanta is was very bad too. I couldn't go from the store exit to my car without getting harassed by at least one person, sometimes a whole family, and once I was stopped by 4 different beggars in the same parking lot! And you could really start to see through the ones who were totally full of it. One woman had this wobbly crying inflection in her voice talking about needing money to see her sick grandmother in Utah, but she had zero emotion in her face or eyes, and, after awhile, I would start giving them sob stories back about how my husband just died or we were getting foreclosed on and had nowhere to live. And then there was one day where a guy said "excuse me, miss? I'm dehydrated and I totally forgot my wallet, would you give me $0.75 for a can of soda?" I gave that guy the money because I respected the honesty (at the time I was like 15 and it was the 90s, so $0.75 wasn't a lot, but it wasn't nothing either to someone who couldn't work yet). But, in general, I've got three kids and a ton of my own bills, I sometimes still qualify to BE the charity case, so I know of all the programs out there to keep people from being destitute and panhandling, and I struggle to feel bad for most people on the streets with their hands out. I know, for some, mental illness plays a large role in their living situations too, but that's not a cross that I'm equipped to manage for them either.
@@TheFangirlWatches I used to give spare cash to people on the street trying to be nice and do some good for someone in need, but lately I've heard about there being turf wars/fighting over who gets to pan handle where like it's its own network/profession. And, nope, I just can't get behind that and it's getting to be so bad you see multiple people down the same road looking perfectly capable and well fed. It's not right and pity only goes so far when you hear how many times it's a sham. The news covered this one woman who did it all day then went to her car and drove to her house only for people giving charity to think she was homeless.
I had known another older man, had been my sunday school teacher for the longest time, who passed away around 4 years ago, who had also done this after an experience he had with a woman asking for money to feed her children and instead she went to get some cigarettes and the children ended up not being hers so he had vowed that next time he got asked for money he would take them to a fast food place or a restaurant instead if they were really were hungry to find out if they were truthful with their stories and he would give them extra money if possible.
@@TheFangirlWatches Back when I had a job in Anaheim, on the freeway exit there'd be a guy sometimes selling flowers or holding a sign for help. One morning I packed some extra food and water and offered it to him. He was very grateful for it, that it became a thing each time I saw him. Since then, my hubby and I will only give out water and food to people.
I forgot about this movie, except Georgette's song by Bette Midler. Your video unearthed a core memory for me!
When I was a kid in the late 90s, we played Oliver & Company on the playground (I have NO IDEA what the game would be, memory isn't that good), and I'd always get mad that I got stuck playing Rita, as the only girl in the small group, because she didn't really have a character. And nobody ever wanted Georgette in the mix, so at 7 years old, I didn't question it. But I always wanted to be Georgette! 😄🐩🎀
The abandoned house boat really made me think of The Rescuers, even though it was out 11 years before Oliver & Co. Really similar illustration and color palette.
And Sykes had a wild, 80s villain death. Disney went hard on that one.
Fagin was actually named after a childhood friend of Charles Dickens
One of my favorite movies I had on VHS in my 90s young childhood. Thanks for another analysis. Fagan was always interesting to me!
As I think about it, the last time I saw this movie, might just be when it was in theaters in 1988! I feel like I must have seen it again somewhere, at some point, but other than stumbling on it in the middle on Disney Channel, I don't think I sat and watched it on full since.
I do recall at the time thinking Fagin was an addict, but you can't SAY that in a G rated movie. The main other thing I remember, was my older sister had just read Oliver Twist in school, and had numerous criticisms with regards to the adaptation. Just what they were, don't remember, but I remember she did talk at length about it.
That clasic tale of oliver with a disney twist is a fantastic sentence when talking about s remake of oliver twist
I will break a spear in favor of the Butler. This random guy saved her after the "bad man" kidnapped her. There was no way the butler or anyone else could knew Fegin was the true villain.
Excuse me, but I have to jump to the guy's defence (love your vid BTW!!). Fagin has been one of my top favourite Disney characters ever since my first cinema experience at just turned 5 years old! His complexity/moral ambiguity is so appealing - even as a kid I thought this, which just goes to show how good Disney is at not dumbing down to children; at understanding kids' ability to hold differing views in their minds at once, their openness to taking on alternative ways of seeing the world...
Anyway, you have some interesting theories here, a couple that hadn't occurred to me. Allow me to hyperfixate...
So to begin, I don't see Fagin as a bad egg at all. True, he is no angel, for example he can be unthinking; he doesn't consider the consequences of/have any moral qualms about bribing a rich family for the return of their cat. In fact, he seems to relish it. But I believe under all that, he has a heart of gold, and his situation is a combination of hard luck and poor decisions.
My original theory was that he was laid off from his job. Doing what, I'm not sure, but I feel he's always led a somewhat lonely existence... perhaps at a later point, something to do with the barges, transporting/freight, fishing, if his clothes and accommodation are anything to go by... He slipped into gambling out of desperation, first believing that a big win would solve everything, and addiction/debt escalated from there. As pointed out in many comments below, the wrestling bet scene with Winston hints at this. I also thought that he might be a drinker (his nose is occassionally pink - could be in response to stress, or a reaction to the cold - could also be a sign of regular/sustained alcohol use. There are empty bottles around his home I think?). Either way, he seems to have an addictive personality of sorts.
The problem with this theory is that, being the shewed businessman he is, Sykes would never loan to small-fry. So either Sykes owns the houseboat and Fagin owes him rent (doubtful - the hidden location and shabbiness of the place makes me think it was abandoned and Fagin and crew are squatting). Or Fagin once had a more professional, well-paid job and got accidently entangled with this mobster, borrowing money to gamble with. Albeit exacerbated by nerves, Fagin does display the 'gift of the gab', or rather, a propensity for chatter, persuasive talk, and negotiation, so I thought perhaps he was once in a sales type of role. Maybe that's it. Then there was redundancy.
Haha, as an aside, you can really tell his VA Dom DeLuise was a comedian - his lines and delivery are brilliant. Fagin definitely has qualities of the classic comedic persona: neuroticism, depression, a slightly chaotic vibe and flair for the dramatic, alongside the obvious sense of humour.
Possibly, his "inability to regulate his emotions" could be down to a mental illness/substance misuse combo, like you say, and, strangely, bipolar disorder had never crossed my mind before you mentioned it. I find that interesting. And I can see where you've taken that from (e.g. his manic energy/optimism vs. the crashing down/low-lows). However, I always assumed there was something else going on - ADHD with dyslexia or another learning disability perhaps.
He struggles to prioritise. He's not so good at planning, or maths. Time keeping may be an issue (his wearing of multiple stolen/found watches could be due to them being old/disguarded and therefore constantly breaking and him needing back-up - or they could be seen as over-compensation for a lack of basic organisational skills. Or further evidence of hoarding behaviour, sometimes seen in ADHD).
When making the map for the Foxworths, his spelling is incorrect, his drawing a little child-like. But he's literate.
His swinging from joy, playfulness, excitement, to anxiety, to utter hopelessness, to determinedness, and all the way around again seems disregulated on a level above what would be expected from the situation, even though, to be fair, his situation is pretty dire. No money for food, no prospects... And who wouldn't behave erratically if they had a metaphorical axe hanging over their head?! Or maybe there are no diagnoses. The poor man's quirks are simply trauma responses to a lifetime of ups and downs.
I do have a problem with the idea of Fagin being a "junkie" though. I don't know why. Maybe because that word implies that we should remove all sympathy for him? I mean, it shouldn't be this way; does addiction to drugs make you less worthy of being lablled "good" than being addicted to drink or gambling, or having no addictions at all? No. However, for whatever reason, I don't think Disney would write a character with a narcotics problem. Alcohol, yes, but I imagine they would draw the line (pun(s) intended) at drugs. Mainly due to society's common view of drug-users (however unfair that view is).
Moving on, the 'acquiring five dogs to use as emotional blackmail on passers by to get money' theory doesn't sit right with me. There's no evidence of him using the gang this way. They do fetch him 'treasures' to pawn, but that's the extent of it, and they don't do a very good job of that even, so he's not exactly running the most efficient of enterprises. Having said that, I COULD imagine a scene occurring early on in the group's existence where Fagin does beg on the streets, the dogs feigning various ailments (al la Francis in the cab scene), and them being chased on by the authorities, so never trying that stunt again!
Instead, I see these dogs as having the street smarts to survive as strays on their own. So why do they remain loyal to Fagin? My idea is that, being a soft touch, he saved each of them, one at a time over the months/years, from myriad circumstances, by giving them this shelter out of the NY elements. Each dog feels a bond with him, unique to their personal history. Contrary to what you say, he DOES feed them usually ("Dead men don't buy dog food!"). In having them together, he's facilitated their friendships and family connection. And he truly cares for them to the extent of his means and capacity (I'll go more into the storybook scene in a bit..).
Yes, Fagin has his flaws, but ultimately his redeemable features outweigh those. His lifestyle, emotions, and choices are disordered, unsettled, unwise, sometimes unpredictable, and that can be scary for children ('his children' - the dogs on screen - and 'us' children - the young Disney audience). He has a ruthless streak. I would say he's easily influenced. He has low self-esteem. However, he is also kind, gentle, generous, warm, funny, playful, endearing, considerate, brave, empathetic, resourceful and clever in his own way, capable of seeing the cracks of light in the darkest of times, and full of pathos.
When we first see him, he is bringing home dog biscuits (feeding Dodger et al but not himself). The gang clearly love him. Their elation on his return isn't based on the treats - they are pleased to see him personally, and as Tito says "He's family! He's blood!". Tito cracks me up.
Fagin welcomes Oliver to the gang with a chin tickle, even though he could see the cat as 'just one more mouth to feed'.
His concious wins over when he sees an innocent young girl with a piggy bank, missing her kitty; he returns Oliver to Jenny.
He risks his neck to save a child he's only just met. Yes, it was his fault Jenny got in that mess to start with, but if he were truly villainous then he would have brushed his hands of the whole thing once Sykes declared his debt written off.
At the party, he's sweet with Jenny, respectful, and shows that fun-loving side, like a well-meaning uncle. Just because he's struggling, financially, mentally, etc., doesn't make him corrupt.
My last say on this - the biggest thing that got me on side as a child was the scene where Fagin reads the picture book to the gang. He comes in, exhausted, having had the roughest day ever, and all he wants to do is fall into his chair and sleep. The dogs plead for a bedtime story - and instantly you have a weary father and his six offspring around him (as a parent now, this scene hits even harder than it did for me as a five year old). Fagin sets a boundary in an authoritative way ("just one chapter"). Then he proceeds to read about Sparky - not in a tired, 'I can't be bothered to do this' tone of voice, but with real enthusiasm - out of the love he has for his dogs. As they pull the blanket over him and fetch his slippers, it's a touching demonstration of 'we all take care of one another here'. And why would this savvy pack of dogs care for/seek care from a guy who is secretly rotten at the core? They would not.
P.S. I'd love to hear the 'real' story behind Disney's character, Dodger and the rest, from someone who worked on the film. Think anyone here has any connections?! I did recently see an original sketch of an early-stage Fagin that suggests he was a medical school drop out, so that's interesting (the sketch shows him as being younger than his actual character in the film I think).
One of my parents was mentally ill and unhoused. They had dogs they cared for and when we were able to get them shelter, they would go visit the dog staying with someone else in a homeless camp.
Also must add that I’ve always found it weird when folks say they know “homeless people” who live in nice homes and so on. Because if it was so easy to make a ton of money panhandling, why doesn’t everyone do it? Since it’s apparently so easy to have enough money to cover the cost of living by begging for change. And when you give money to things like The Salvation Army or any other charity organizations you are not stipulating what the money is being used for. Actually very little goes to the charity itself but to the people who operate it. So why does anyone have criteria for how someone on the corner asking for change uses the money?
Fagin is a kind of interesting figure across most media.
The original version of the character is a despicable villain - he's arguably much more sinister than Sikes in the book.
Fagin: A scheming, heartless man who turns kids to pickpocketing and actively drives Sikes to kill Nancy(who is a former pickpocket of his).
Bill Sikes: A brutal thug who only seems to care for his dog and maybe a little for his tagalong Nancy(who he kills at Fagin's instigation).
In many movies and adaptions, he's shown to be at least somewhat caring towards the youths he fences(unlike his original self, who at best faked it) and is often treated as liking Nancy. Her death is now something he gets furious at Sikes for, rather than something he planned.
Having been homeless before, I understand why people will turn to less than legitimate means of relieving their circumstances. We're living in a world that is actively antagonistic toward the unhoused, and dehumanises them. Hostile architecture, harsh laws that take away everything people manage to save up because of strict zoning regulations, and people who are afraid to help, because the person getting it might be taking advantage of them.
Not to mention the fact that it's impossible to get a job while homeless, and if you somehow manage it, you don't get to go home after work--you're going to your car (which you'll be in trouble for sleeping in), a shelter (where you'll be in trouble for getting there after bed-check, and they don't let you keep food), a homeless camp (where you risk being arrested, and having all of your worldly possessions stolen by the cops), or a hotel room (which will take all your money so you can't save for a place to live).
I've had a home for years, now. I've been okay. No one helped me until I had money, and became "trustworthy." But I still can't work. I was forced to rely on my abusers to get out of that situation, and I will never be okay after that.
Did this man not give anybody else nightmares as a child?!? He was always so creepy to me 😂
The junkie habit makes me super scared. Poor guy just is crying for help
I always thought the loan was for the boat and he was a fisherman, but something happened?
Good theory, tho you'd be surprised how many boats are just abandoned in places.
I love character case studies!!
The other day I saw the Disney silly symphony Neptune short and I couldn’t help thinking the pirate ship that got destroyed was a catalyst for Disney’s “Ariel’s beginning” in which Ariel’s mum dies - a few pirates that survived the ship battle could have gone back to land and rallied people up to get revenge - which is why the ship was aiming for the mermaid rocks. The ship knew where it was specifically from trying to capture a ginger haired mermaid (I think was Tritons mother)
- obviously the revenge bit happened years later for that theory.
Just a bit of a coincidence how the humans specifically aimed for those rocks twice.
I also like the theory that Ursula disguised as Vanessa in her youth went to land to acquire more power to overthrow Triton and caused a few fallouts on her way. I think she gave the humans the idea a ginger haired mermaid possessed some kind of magical power so they wanted to capture that mermaid in particular.
- unrelated but I love the theories connecting Disney’s “Fantasia” to Moana and Hercules etc with the appearance of Gaia/Te Fiti and Zeus and the centaurs etc
I also love the idea that Disney princesses like Sleeping beauty/Cinderella/Snow White etc for example are descended from “Persephone” in 1934 cartoon The Goddess of Spring which is why they can communicate with animals and are loved by nature.
I think that the golden ball thing Princess Eilonwy has in the “black cauldron somehow links up as well - it’s never really explained but it shines similar to Rapunzels hair and Ariel’s shell necklace (when her voice becomes harnessed by Ursula)
I know the Black cauldron was based off the the Chronicles of Prydain book but I’ve never actually read it.
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Cool theories, I never even heard of the Neptune Silly Symphony short. It's so neat!
Cute youtube channel ♡ reminds me of childhood. wouldve loved this channel when i was younger.
5:13 lol my exact humor. Love it
THANK YOU!!! OH MY GOD THANK YOU!!!! I seriously thought I was crazy for thinking this exact same thing!!! Because every time I shared this movie with my friends growing up, they all LIKED Fagen’s character. They all described him as a “misunderstood anti-hero”. I’m not one to tell people what to think, but I completely agree that Fagen was the film’s lesser antagonist. And yeah, he’s definitely hooked on something.
I don't think he's an anti-hero.
Nice theory btw could you do a theory on Alvin and the Chipmunks? Like what caused Dave’s took a level in kindness?
Great video I can’t wait for your next video and definitely your next character study case
Gosh I use to watch this film all the time at my grandparent's house growing up.
My theory is that Fagin place isn't his apartment after all it looks abandoned and rugged he probably stole electricity from somewhere and the tv is likely stolen he's just trying to survive and having death sentence by mafia is scary like shown in the film he's scared shitless....My other theory is sikes might own the place and is lending him the place till he pays his debt but the debt get bigger and He can't ever pay his lone...note sikes is mafia guy when someone owes a mafia they usually get used as slave for mafia benefits :)
I remember as a kid I created a story line for a game I played on my own, where Reta found a home of her own with an owner (a family with their own daughter (me)) and they name her Nancy Rose (this before I realized Reta was very likely meant to be the Nancy of the gang) and the rest (except Oliver because he was happy one of his friends was off the street) and stopped talking to her.
Also in Jenny’s butler’s defense he doesn’t leave Jenny alone with Fagan alone during the party and Fagan probably only got an invite because he’s the dogs’s owner
Well the way I see it better to help and be a fool hen not and be a monster
okay but last i watched this i couldnt NOT think about how much sykes looks like rourke from atlantis-maybe distant relative?
Man was built like a brick shithouse. lol
Fagan may not have been all that poor before he borrowed money from Sykes. The thing about Loan Sharks is that their notorious for high interest rates so a person who borrows money from them ends up being poorer than they were when they first started
10:29 it's not trying to sell him as a good guy. He's an anti-villain. He wanted to do something horrible but couldn't and had a redemption arc. Not everything is as black and white as hero and villain.
Anti-villain may well be a decent term for a lot of the movie, but the fact that he goes back to business as usual at the end doesn't strike me as a lesson learned.
Wow amazing your theories are amazing keep it up
Thank you Joshua!
@@TheFangirlWatches np
I don't think he is a junky. I think he was once a well successive businessman and Sykes doesn't seem to be a man who gives money to someone, where he can't expect to make a profit out of it. I believe Fagin got a mental illness or something like that and now, he struggles so hard in life, but he actually has a good heart.
and what you mean, the idea with the 5 dogs must come from a person who is high af, that's not true. Such ideas can occur especially in untreated mental illnesses. Bipolar people have even more violent ideas, e.g. that the phone book is a binary code that you can crack to escape the matrix, etc. Sounds like mental illness, not a junky.
In addition, society sets good examples that people with bipolar disorder can be very successful. Just look at Kanye West. that would explain how he could be in so much debt. He was previously Successful and Trustworthy.
Well actually there was a pure deleted scene regarding poker taking place 4.0 years before $22,000 with a 100% interest rate every week times four years and that’s a little under 4.580 million dollars.
What is Fagan borrowed money back when he had a job and a home and/because he had a gambling addiction or something along those lines and then he became homeless and then a few years later it’s time to pay off the debt? Just saying that could probably how he was able to get money, led to him from Sykes
I really agree with you and your theory ❤
He was literally trying not to die...
A villain? No. A desperate soul, yes.
Hopefully this is one movie that won’t get a live action remake
I love ur deep deep in depth videos.
In the book Fagin is a much more sinister character, but he is also a Jewish caricature. Dickens constantly calls him “The Jew.” To avoid offending Jewish people, most adaptations of Oliver Twist make Fagin a kinder man.
I was 3 year old when it first came out 0:39
I haven't seen this movie in years. I literally don't remember anything about it (except Why Should I worry. Really love that song) I think you're probably right about Fagin being a junkie. It seems kinda obvious. Also, I knew a lo5 of people faked being homeless, but I didn't realise they used Dogs like that! 👀
Fagin looking like crap doesn't necessarily mean he always looked that bad.
As some habe mentioned here. At the end of the film, he's implied to have a gambling problem. So he could have still, "looked" like domeone who was good for the money when he burrowed. Only to then destroy his life trying to make that money back
Have you seen Playframe's video about the story of Kingdom Hearts?
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Hmmm never watched this I guess I'll give it a try
It's worth a watch!
Fagin is an interesting character, and I agree with all of your points there! I think he's more of an anti-villain honestly. But overall, I'm still confused on why people think he's a good person even though all of the things he does is only to save his own skin.
He gives Oliver back to Jenny, knowing that Sykes would've killed him. Also, he goes back to rescue Jenny after Sykes kidnaps her. I think that's redeemable.
And THEN after that, he's betting on a wrestling match with a butler, and when Mr. Winston wins, Fagin runs off stealing an apple. He's still a flawed person.@@FallouFitness_NattyEdition
@@Yellowguy0619 Let us not forget also, when he rescued Jenny, whose life he endangered in the first place, he was cleaning up his own mess, but at the time he was no longer in Sykes' debt. Nothing but his own conscience guided him in that climatic rescue.
@@FallouFitness_NattyEdition But he still lied to Jenny and never told her the truth soon after.
@@TheNotverysocial Yup!
I remember this movie mainly because I wanted to watch Land Before Time instead. But it was sold out.
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Also i dont think fagin is a junky or has a gambling addiction i suspect he either baught the little boat with the thaught he wouldnt have to pay tax and would have somewhere to sleep or he spent money on the dogs and tookout the loan while homeless
I always had an off feeling about Fagin as a character.
Can you please do a theory on DuckTales pacifically on who Huey Dewey and Louie father is, but it's ok if you can't.
I made it to the end!😃
I love this movie, my favorite childhood, and plus fact, Fagin is Jew, maybe that's why he doesn't go to the church organization XD and he must have a very big debt with Sykes to drop he's Cadilac into the subway just for reach him and kidnaping Jenny again.
Wow
I always thought he was a drug user when i was a kid so the sics guy gave him money for drugs or gave him drugs
I disargee with that he free from Sykes the real villain
You right, you right
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[ made it to end
Hes a mentally defunct impoverished low life but when his hero moment came to zero gain of his own he risked his life and animal companions to save a little girl. Totally agree wouldnt be near my kids going forward though.
Obligatory algorithm-boosting comment.
The ending made no sense to me
Lol I thought this would be a little more positive...
Ummm guess not.
The way you try to project real world issues on this children's cartoon is problematic and for me personally is really gross.