forgot to ask people to subscribe to my channel because I'm very good at youtube. please subscribe to my channel. esp as I can’t monetise this one thanks to the columbine clip. that’d be great. thanks. ajsfljdkjj
@Shonalika ummmm....you've really not. Just your run of the mill wannabe. But hey thats just my opinion. Isnt it supposed to be innocent until proven guilty BTW ? Maybe you should do your homework when attempting to put together a video as if you're some kinda of journalist. And on that note....you actually have to Have an actual education to become a journalist BTW.
I grew up a huge Manson fan in the '90's too. It's wild how a total stranger can inspire such creativity in others. But like you said it's our creativity that comes from us, not him. Trying to untangle my own thoughts and feelings from how I used to view him has become a strange experience in a good way. This video is amazing. Thanks for making it! And congrats on your top surgery.
That part really stuck out to me, too! As I've moved away from my religious upbringing, I don't discount the many powerful experiences I had within my church - they came from me and my community, not a deity or supernatural force. I can still find meaning in those memories.
I was very inspired and attached to him when younger. And you are right, I realised awhile ago that putting aside his music, I he was so stuck in a conservative mindset and that I had taken the inspiration and run further than he ever could or would and he was a relic of the past. But having been a part of that fan group, yeh. The peer pressure and consent issues (along with the levels of encouraged substance abuse) amongst the whole crew, band, and fans ... made everything blurry and definitely was power differential gone wild. Your comments on this are so balanced, on point and important for everyone's safety. Thank you.
Recently a friend of mine died who was one of the first (she said she was the first) person to come out about Manson’s abuse of her as a fan and I’m so thankful you’re making this video. My friend was in a late nineties/early 2000s goth band and her story of Manson was just horrible and she used TikTok to tell her story up until the day she died. I just hope that more people listen to how awful this man is and the way he has taken advantage of people. Again thank you- i know my friend would have shared this video far and wide.
@@Lilacrosepetalleaf I’ve been doing research and can’t find anything by police saying such a thing. It’s not like i trust police as it is, a judge threw out MM’s lawsuit against ERW saying that his claims of defamation were baseless. Police raided MMS house in 2021 and there are no updates on that
God, the old footage of him, ESPECIALLY talking shit to Bill Maher, is so confronting and inspiring to me, even now. It feels so basic if you're invovled in queer discourse online today. But, I'm 42 and I was a queer person who was closeted in rural WI when he first got big. He was so important to me then. I wasn't even a fan of his music, I just valued him as a cultural lightning rod. It was radicalizing for me to see how easily people blamed him for Columbine, too, so I felt protective of him for years out of nostalgia. Great video!
I'm not surprised this guy is a good friend of Johnny Depp. I was a college radio DJ in the early 90s, so I was able to get backstage passes to a lot of shows. My sister was very into metal, so I wound up seeing a lot of metal shows and meeting the bands - famous and not-so-famous bands. As a female presenting person, I can unequivocally state that men in metal bands who treated female presenting people respectfully were the exception, not the rule. I experienced a lot of shitty things that I would now call abuse and sexual assault, but, at the time, I thought it was just part of the rock and roll experience. I didn't like it, but I never expected it to be any other way because it was just accepted that abusing women was one of the "perks" of being a musician. It's hard for me to imagine that Marilyn Manson and Johnny Depp did not believe, like every other male musician in the late 80s/early 90s, that they were entitled to these "perks." And, unfortunately, fame and money can isolate people from reality so they never truly have to face how their actions have hurt other people.
Also it wasn't any particular subculture that had a misogyny problem. That was the culture all around. Dont think it was different in pop, rap, art, cinema or finance
@@akshayde I am inclined to think that rock/metal etc is so well known for this because it is a "subculture" and looked down upon even to this day. Doesn't make it good but damn, the amount of well known people doing this shit is staggering
@@WitheringRowan i think that's a matter of what subcultures we pay attention to. Rock and roll was always "rebellious andsexy" unlike metal which was more serious. So sexual exploits of Rockstars were bragging rights in a conservative society.
(this is NOT about SA or anything like that) In 2015 I went to Manson's concert in a relatively small venue in Vienna. I was 17, this was the first concert that I deliberately bought tickets for, of a band I actively listened to, and I was REALLY excited, cause at that point I had been a huge Manson fan for like 4 or 5 years. Funnily enough, that concert also started my slow disillusionment with him. The concert itself was great, they played all of their great hits, even the old ones, and some bsides that I loved, and he did that whole costume change after every two or three songs and brought out various props I never thought I'd see live. But after the last song, which noone knew was the last song, the whole band just vanished in the smoke and lights and suddenly the concert was over. No shoutout to the bandmembers or the crew, no thank you for coming to the audience, no encore, no goodbye, no bow, nothing. They just finished and left. And after such a great concert I was so so disappointed. It felt like a slap in the face. That's when I sort of realised that he wasn't just playing a character, he really believed he was so cool he didn't owe it to the audience to at least let us know the show was ending, let alone thank us for being there. It was a tiny thing, but it began the process of unraveling my idolisation of him. Over time my interests changed and I stopped listening to his music before I even knew about all the bad shit he's done. And yet, when I did learn about it, it was SO hard to accept. It's still weird reckoning with all that. Cause of course it's not just him, Johnny Depp was my favourite actor as a kid and teen and we all know where that went. And more. And I'm not certain I know better now. It's so easy to tie your own identity to artists and creators you like and it really hurts when they do things you find ethically or morally bad. I simply don't know how to not do it.
I had a similar experience back in the early oughts. But hey, Disturbed was the opening act and they were brilliant, so it was a good concert, Manson or no.
I don't want to take away from the subject matter, especially because I'm only a third of the way into the video, but I think your makeup is on point, and I love the asymmetric eye makeup. Goals.
Talking about the song Kim made me think about the situation with "Forget Her" by Jeff Buckley, a song that's nowhere as nasty. It's practically pleasant about its subject in comparison. It was supposed to be on the album Grace, and even appeared on some early review copies, but was swapped out shortly before release. When asked why by someone who had heard the song, he said something along the lines that it was because the person it was written about (who is never named) would know and she shouldn't have to hear those thoughts, so he made the decision to never release the song in any form. Unfortunately, his wishes were not honoured after his death and reissues of the album have it as a bonus track. It's about as different an approach as possible, scrapping what is a really good song because he knew it had the potential to hurt someone even if most people would never know who it's about.
oh this is super interesting, I didn't know that backstory to the song! don't even know if I agree with him lmao, relationships are such a key source of inspiration and holding back on songs like Forget Her would be a LOT of valuable creativity and catharsis down the toilet. still, definitely worth weighing up and v interesting to know that was the reason for it being unreleased initially unrelated but on the subject of JB, I have such strange feelings listening to his posthumous stuff. I LOVE so much of it but you can really tell that they're well, sketches, exactly as the title says, and we really should never have gotten access to them if that wasn't what the artist wanted
NO! It's a harmful myth that victims of abuse will become abusers. Please stop repeating this! "In her book Predators, Anna C. Salter talks about how most men convicted of child sexual abuse will simply say that they were abused as children because it affords them more sympathy. In reality, fewer than 10% of them actually were." The rest of the video was great. Please consider cutting that line or putting a note.
I think I phrased it more as something I * thought * was true than as researched fact, but yes, thanks for pointing that out as def important not to spread misinformation on this type of thing if that is the case regardless. (not possible to edit the video now but will try to take more care in future)
We were not present or involved in neither of his relationships, therefore I do not know what happened, and neither do you. That's why I'm staying out of it and leaving it to the authorities.☯️
It's awful how being part of a subculture made me liable to turn away from Manson's rattling comments about his exes, because I too felt I was capable of having cruel and violent thoughts, so my lack of understanding of the world made me brush it off. Thankfully I know better now that I'm an adult. I think in this age we cannot afford to be disingenuous towards people we admire in the face of so much glaring evidence to be taken into account. We have to accept that evil people can make good art, and the existence of that good art shouldn't be a reason to not hold them accountable for what they do. Thanks for making this nuanced videos talking about this subject. As someone who grew up listening to his songs, this subject has been so upsetting, not because I couldn't believe it, but because I was sadly not surprised at all.
Really incisive commentary, thank you Shona. I often feel like fandom is one of the most inherently problematic concepts out there, but the things that can grow out of fandom - community, collaboration, connection - are so valuable and cannot be taken away by the object of adoration. Fuck all powerful abusive narcissists, but here's to good memories and good friends.
all your videos are so insightful and emotionally intelligent in ways that ASTOUND me every time. this one was especially wonderful, i honestly haven't seen anyone else tackling this conversation with one fifth of the nuance and maturity shown in this essay. i agreed with pretty much everything you said but my eyes felt like they were being opened with each new insightful comment. seriously. i need to sit down and think about some of the stuff you said in here again, because i'm sure i didn't catch it all the first time. you hit the nail on the head as usual; keep up the great work!
I'm so glad you put in a clip of the 2017 interview, which I was very put off by and instantly started being suspicious of him. It's almost an indirect way of telling on himself....
Great video. I wasn't a Manson fan, but I was, until recently, a huge Rammstein fan. Given the allegations, I can relate a lot to the subject matter here.
I've been aRammstein fan for 20+ years. The situation seems very similar than Manson with all these manosphere nutjob types springing up to defend him. They don't strike me as representative of the R+ community i knew. More like wandering misogynists from the general metal scene who have latched on to the fight for their own reasons. I have a whole bunch of conflicting emotions about it. Having been around the fan community for so long I know *enough* that the accusations don't surprise me in the least. I miss being able to enjoy the music. Part of me feels sorry for the other members that it's taken the whole thing down. But also pissed off at them for not clamping down on his bullshit. And by extension I also feel some guilt that we as a fan community were complicit in what was going on. Because you only have to search up the old Reddit threads to realise how well known it was. We've all fucking seen row zero. We've heard the stories.
I saw some comments, post-allegations but pre the current Johnny Depp anti-victim wave, saying Manson was yuck, how could anyone ever fancy him, not realise he was creepy? And that's just ungoths choosing not to notice that their aesthetic doesn't fit everyone, 'cause he WAS hot for fifteen years or so, clever, subversive, challenging, intriguing. I'd love to assert that having an outrageous persona is not inherently stapled to being abusive, but Manson, Aiden, MSI, Tool, BotDF, Rammstein, name a few hundred more but don't ask me about it, ain't doing us many favours. It'd be lovely if we could maintain the right to be outrageous without the abuse. I've noticed Rachel Stamp are a band who Do The Thing but are so clearly lovely and inclusive. And openly queer artists are more likely to go that way. Alice Cooper's wholesome except for Depp apologetics and political apathy. I always had him down as what Marilyn was trying to be, but he never possessed the essential warmth. But by trying to naming examples, I'm falling for it. These are some sentences.
Marilyn Manson is here for a reason. He added a passion to my dreams that I didn’t realize I needed to pursue those dreams. Everyone is good and evil. What’s the point of Christianity if you don’t have Satan? You need evil to know good and vise versa.
welp, one day after this comment, Alice Cooper came though with some gender bigotry, the kind that leads to a lot of harm. directly demonstrates the risk involved with expressing faith in any celeb edit: his (current) bigotry was published a few days ago.
@@Eyeintheredsky I feel that MM's treatment of teenage girls isn't here for a reason. Regarding Christianity vs. Satan, I feel that the creator of Antichrist Superstar was probably making some points about the constructs of Christianity, and the good-vs-evil they encourage, more than actually rooting for evil.
This is coincidentally something I've been thinking a lot about lately. The way people are very eager to see the creators of the art they admire as either saints or demons. I see people immediately jump to conclusions of "where there signs all along?" or "so this is what they were "really" like, I'm so disappointed" There is an interesting way that people tie their content and art consumption to their morality that urges them to make very emotional decisions regarding the artists they love that have let them down or that others love/loved. We try to find what liking "x" problematic person tells about ourselves. There are certain artists whose work I have trouble consuming because of things that have happened in their private lives and others that I don't. You were exactly right, no one is "innocent", there is not necessarily a clear cut hero and villain in more situations in real life. At the end of the day it is important to remember that critique and discussion like this is a very integral part of how we evolve our cultural tastes and the type of art being made, but also sometimes it serves no one. If Manson's work spoke to you then that can be true at the same time as him being an abusive prick. "It wasn't him. It was me looking at him". I love that. Parasocial relationships do not necessarily have to be negative, but I think being aware of the fact that your relationship is one sided, that you do not have true access to the other person's life, their uncurated sense of self, is a huge part of unpacking how in modern times we end up consuming images of our idols as part of ourselves. So much food for thought!
I mean, the thing is "believe victims" is statistically mostly the correct thing to do, considering how few accusations are fake. Even if I don't know 100% for sure if Till Lindermann did all the things he is accused of, I'll still stop giving Rammstein my money and support because I think personally that is the right thing to do. Continuing to talk about him and that band as "this cool thing" just feels wrong. Also with MM, knowing his persona is most likely his real self, it sucks any joy out of the music and outrageous interviews or whatnot.
The bits of the Rammstein story that he **isn't denying** still make him an incredibly shitty excuse for a human being. So the legal investigations are basically irrelevant to where my relationship with the band is at.
Thank you for the video. In Germany there's currently heavy discussion and legal battles about the case of Till Lindemann, Rammstein singer, and possibly other members of the band, which is very similar. I've been following this a bit and it's really disheartening to read comments about it. "Innocent until proven guilty" gets weaponised in absurd ways, and it's certainly not extended to the women who've come forward with the allegations, who "clearly" are after all the money, fame, and I guess character assassination and death threats they get. There's discussion about some allegations that would be clear crimes, but the band and singer don't even deny that there was (and apparently still is, but more discreetly) a system in place to recruit young female fans for sex. Not criminal in itself, but quite abusive: they weren't told beforehand what this was about, no age check, lots of alcohol around, they sit there until the idol shows up and chooses among them. No one seems to care about that. And a lot of the fans are very convinced that Lindemann didn't do the criminal stuff, which.. I mean I don't exactly know the truth either, but the allegations come from different women, are about different points in time, Lindemann wrote and published a poem about committing the specific type of abuse the allegations are about, AND we know that there's a whole system in place where young fans are treated and used in a dehumanising way. I certainly have an opinion about the likelihood of the allegations being true. But even if none of the criminal stuff happened: people don't get that when someone tells you that your idol wants to meet you, you are in a fantasy world where they have touched you deeply, and you maybe get to tell them that or think they will understand you, they would of course care about you just as you deeply care about them, not just use you to get off or do something a lot worse even. The superfans who are so convinced of his innocence are, in fact, in the same fantasy world that allows the idol to take advantage of other fans. And their misogyny just allows them to stay there. I think your point about reclaiming what may have been inspired by them as coming from within ourselves is excellent and I will treasure that piece of wisdom!
all of this, the second to last paragraph especially. it's really just not as simple as legal = good and illegal = bad and I wish more people understood that
What shocked me the most about the discourse surrounding Till Lindemann- how many 30+ year old men came out of the woodwork to defend him by justify their OWN (past) relationships with 14-17 year old kids because of the ambiguity of our German laws. They feel safe enough to be loud and proud about how they exploit children who still need to hand in sick notes signed by their parents when they miss class.
Fwiw I was a 20+ year rammstein fan. I'm well into double digits for shows, including having travelled internationally to see them. Most of the people defending Till now aren't what I would recognise as Rammstein superfans. They seem more like generic metal bros that have latched onto this thing as an outlet for their misogyny. For anyone that's actually been following this band seriously then the allegations are ...hard to doubt. Which raises a whole bunch of questions about the extent to which the fandom (which I've been part of) are culpable for not raising the alarm. Row zero was right there in plain sight at every show and lots of people know women who were in it.
This is a tough but important video for me as I was a huge fan of Manson growing up. Thank you. As an aside, I love your sidecut - I just reshaved mine after growing it out for a while 🖤🖤🖤
@@balsosnellstilldreaming ...yeah, generally speaking the deeper a person has been into the R+ fan community the less difficulty they have believing it. Everyone knew what Row zero was about and how Aleena was recruiting for it. Everyone knew what a shitty person Joe Letz is. There are reddit threads going back years that anyone can look up. And still we have these generic metal bros turning up and telling us they 'stand with till" when they don't know shit about this band.
@@balsosnellstilldreaming I was there at he concert in Vilnius, I met the girl who accused him and even though that's probably not the worst thing he has done i saw how creepy his recruiter was and the lie he told her that it would not be sexual. Till respected her saying No and did not harass her for sex her further that night as far as we know. I have no problem believing that if not Till then Joe spiked her. Joe was an addict, has beaten his girlfriends and harassed fans (only seeing them as sex objects), recruited girls for sex for both Till and Man ( is also still hanging out with both Manson and Till, he can be seen at Manson's birthday party) Alena, a Russian woman will known in the music industry for supplying young girls to men is also connected to both Manson and Till) I have no problem believing everything said about him is true because they are surrounded by "yes men" and drugs. Marilyn Manson and Till are also prone to telling us exactly who they are though their music, I don't take it 100% seriously because it is art but Tills recent solo career involves so much thinking about crime punishment, women and rape that I cant help but to think that is on his mind recently. If someone tells you who they are you should listen.
In some way, I think you're now doing the work that we (probably mistakenly) believed that Manson was doing back in the day - promoting social and cultural criticism, scrutinizing power structures, trying to share tools to survive and to empower the disempowered. I'll try not to project too much onto you, though, in case I find out next week that you eat kittens or something
*kicks fur-covered plate under bed* in all seriousness, absolutely. very much would like people to take away from this the presence of mind not to just do what they did with MM with someone else instead
"In the 80s Rockstars just slept with children..." reminded me of the Elvira auto-biography where she details being a groupie as a teen and it was a mess, and even getting sexually abused. It's one of those things that now we'd be hyper-aware of if it was that public, but more often than not those parasocial relationships drive the drama unfortunately.
Thank you for this report as so many on TH-cam seem to take his side, providing illogical arguments. This one is on the contrary such a great analysis.
I don’t want it to seem like I’m just crapping on everything said in the video lol… I know my comments are in defense of him and correcting some things that were said… I do love your videos and how you deliver the message, and I definitely think this video had a very important underlying message. You made so many valid and perceptive points, I love what you said at the end about your thought process came from you and not an outside influence… so I wanted to comment and say, I really do appreciate this video. However, I don’t agree with your thoughts on Manson, especially since he did not write that book… but I do think what you said is so important when it comes to power imbalances and the dynamic it creates…
There's an artist who wrote a song called "Sorry, Out of Gender" which helped me come out to my partner as non-binary. I hope they never turn out to be a creep or anything, but if they do, I'll take the good I got from them and move on to make something new with it. ❤
What was heartbreaking to me about this whole situation (aside from just all of it at once), was that MM was an artist I bonded with my dad over. I thought my dad was so cool, this dorky Catholic guy, being like "No MM is cool, his music actually has a good message". But the point you made about his work being so up for interpretation, is probably why two very different people in the same family could love his work. And secondarily, the stories of abuse by his accusers mimicked parts of my own life. It was a double whammy. But what I have gained from all of this, is knowing my father and I will always love each other and love music together. And I can lean on those stories from MM survivors knowing that what I have experienced by my own abusers is not an isolated incident. I am not alone in the world.
No one “survived” MM. Look at how ERW literally forged an fbi document to coerce others in her goon squad to agree to the hit piece on MM. She lost custody of her own children for being an insane person ffs. It’s pathetic how quick people are to believe this shit even when there are mountains of evidence to the contrary; and under even the most basic scrutiny, the allegations against MM fall apart. Even one of the women ERW coerced into joining her crusade later backed out and filed a formal legal document saying she was pressured and conned into this lie.
I'm late to the discussion but Ive been watching a lot of videos about MM lately and figured I'd chime in. Firstly I really like this video. Secondly, Id like to talk about something I dont think a lot of people touch up on. MM is very calculated, hes intelligent, hes manipulative. He has admitted in the past to take interest in psychology, mind games, and all that stuff. I think he started out as a borderline personality, who had dived a bit too deep into psychology and then started using it against vunerable people to gain power and fame. Its no coincidence that the fanbase mainly consists of men who have been bullied or been through trauma and women who have had abusive relationships, childhood trauma etc. I used to be a huge manson fan. It wasnt until i got older and became an adult, that i realized that manson has a specific charm towards girls who grew up in dysfunctional households. Me being one of them. My many friends who loved manson also being one of them. He is the epitome of a predator. He seeks out vunerable people because they are easy to exploit. He uses cult leader tactics, through spreading ideologies, using symbolism, using the "enemy" to create closeness, enemy being parents/government/normies who dont get it. Theres a lot of thought put into it and knowing manson and his intelligence i assure you its all calculated. Its hard to be shocked or surprised by any of it. He is openly a messed up person. Healthy minded people dont act like this. They dont keep this persona 24/7. I wish someone made a video about the psychology of manson.
I'm a HUGE fan of Lana Del Rey (the music! Lol!), like, to the point where I'm considering shelling out the equivalent of a month of my rent just to see her in concert, but I've never felt the need to "cape" for her or whatever when she does something foolish or "problematic"... let alone if she's ever accused of actually being abusive! 😳
to the point about speaking up when people misuse or abuse their power, i just want to say that personally, as a person who has tried really hard to be fair in relationships and communicate and do right by the other person, it is ABSOLUTELY in your best interest to tell someone when youre hurt by them. otherwise you suffer in silence and the "evil" person never learns and grows until it's too late-- until it's impossible for them to make the situation better for you. not to mention, the "evil" person suffers a lot when they would have done what they could, had you given them a chance and the room in your heart to improve. overall, it's just the best thing to do to self-advocate no matter who is made uncomfortable or upset, unless you have PROOF the other person will ignore or is ignoring you. that's me speaking from personal experience.
Thank you for this video - I'm partway through listening to it but I have to go back to work, so I'm dropping a comment here for appreciation + hopefully some algorithmic engagement! ❤
On Howard Stern in 1998, Manson said about his book: "If there'd be anything I'm ashamed of, I can always say it was fiction." In an interview with Spin Magazine he said: "[The book] was mostly dictated. I would tell Neil Strauss stories, because I don't have the patience or skill to write them down myself. I'm sure in a month or so I'll deny things I've said and attribute them to drug use or coercion by Neil." So the rumor that the book is fiction was spread by Manson himself.
When I originally heard the allegations, not even sure which ones honestly, I remember my immediate thought something along the lines of "Wow the guy who wrote multiple songs about filming a snuff video on a woman he thinks he owns did something against people's consent? I am negative amounts surprised". Mind you, saying this as someone who actually did follow his music pretty closely.
you've given me a lot to think about! especially attributing what i interpret and become inspired by as gospel itself - i'm doing the transformation of the material, not the rockstar or whoever
This one spoke a lot to me because I probably grew up at the same time as you with the same kind of affection for him; and I was very much one of those kids who loved Marilyn Manson as someone I could point at in response to dismissive adults: "See! Metal and Goth music isn't trash. It's thoughtful and expressive art!" Even growing out of the metal scene, I still very much had Manson embedded in my mind as this "thoughtful and self-aware artist", which made the accusations by Evan Rachel Wood shocking to me, because in my mind "thoughtful and self-aware people don't sexually abuse others." But it's like you've highlighted, there are plenty of signs there that while he was thoughtful and self-aware in some areas, perhaps it was just an act, or something he only did for certain subjects, and very clearly wasn't thoughtful and self-aware about the power dynamics of a relationship with a girl half his age, or extreme comments he made about dealing with his relationship with her (e.g. the violent fantasies, self-harm to hurt her, etc.). And whilst the accusations jolted with the image I had of him in my mind at first, in hindsight, it really shouldn't have surprised me.
Thank you for making this video. The halo effect is *extremely* real, especially when fame is concerned. Not only can harm be *extremely* probable given the power dynamics you've cited, not only can harm without consequence become abuse and behavior become more extreme over time (if it isn't abuse to begin with), there seems to be minimal accountability until case after case presents itself. Fans, the public, and the legal system contribute so much strongly to the perception that unless sexual assault and abuse meet the most stereotypical definitions, they don't count... and then, in the event that the abuse does meet those criteria, victims are still blamed, legally and socially. It seems like we punish people - put them through outright hell is a better way to put it - for being inconvenient evidence that people whose work and images we attach to aren't the people we wanted them to be. If, as the internet claims, we want to hold those in power to higher standards and create a more supportive environment for survivors, we need to be aware of so much of what you outlined in this video, think critically, and behave accordingly.
Finding out that Twiggy abused and stole the aesthetic of Jessicka Addams and that Scott Michael Putesky AKA Daisy Berkowitz, the best guitar player MM ever had, was forced to crowdfund his cancer treatments and ultimately died because MM dicked him out of money, made me do a complete reckoning of this period of my life. And also, yeah, I was like fourteen when A Long Hard Road... came out, I read it, and yes, anyone who has ready that book, including 14 year old me in 1998, absolutely knew for truth that MM was abusive to women.
I am starting to get really annoyed by the claim "[false/frivolous] accusations hurt the real victims," that meme needs to die. We don't know who is lying or not, that's why we need to treat all accusations with care. The only ones who hurt "real victims," are those that make it harder for us to come forward. The only ones who hurt real victims are those that use false accusations as an excuse to dismiss the allegations of someone you like.
This is always a grim topic, but you covered it well (no surprise) and provided some interesting ideas I haven't heard in this context (also not surprising). Also, on a less grim note...yay more music!
I just recently had to drop my favorite band after they let their creepy guitar player back into the band without ever publicly addressing the allegations against him. I was friendly with the drummer of the band and would talk with him before shows and unfortunately he was the biggest defender of said guitarist. It hurt to find out someone I looked up to and that inspired me to become a better drummer turned out to be on the wrong side of this to such a degree.
I basically assume anyone in the entertainment industry is either a perp or a victim or both. Like who would have thought that people in an industry where being on drugs is normal, no hr, and big egos would be toxic and abusive to each other? Idk if youve ever hung out with ppl doing this many drugs but they get holes in their brains. They quit acting like you would expect a person to act. Aggressive nonsense behavior ensues. Abuse and toxicity. Take the messages that matter to you in the music and the movies but remember that these people probably all wouldnt act how you would hope.
My sister adores his music. I'm am kind of glade she died the year before this came out. She wanted us to get matching mansion tattoos when we were kids. I'm so grateful we didn't give current day my gods.
fantastic video! leaving a placeholder comment to feed the algorithm gods until i digest it a little and can put together my thoughts into words in a coherent way. unless of course my adhd brain forgets about it 😬
1:42 Lol, it's not like we haven't known about the Kiedis and Tyler things for a LONG time. Hell, Kiedis wrote a goddamn song about the 18-year-old girlfriend he had when he was 40! It was called "She's Only 18"! 💀💀💀..... but I get your point... it's just not as new a phenomenon as a lot of people might think
I've been following a TH-camr the past few years called Stephi Lee, I found her inspirational she is predominantly a travel vlogger but she also talked about dealing with cystic fibrosis and now how a drug called trikafta has given her a life she couldn't have lived before. She was expecting to be dead or near death by now if this drug wasn't invented so it's given her a second lease on life. So I found it pretty disappointing when recently she referred to Marilyn Manson as 'our Lord and Saviour', apparently she has a big issue with 'cancel culture' and I guess either feels he 'did nothing wrong' or worse that she thinks people with power should be allowed to get away with abuse, either of which aren't ideal. It's not like she carried out the misdeeds herself, but it's pretty depressing that she would protect him to the extent she considers him a hero.
Good video, excellent points. Excellent outfit. Especially the bit about the effort that has to go into such an unequal relationship to counteract a power-imbalance was interesting.
the musician shown at 8:16 appears to be a young Tom Araya, lead singer of Slayer, and his inclusion at that moment detracts from the point being made slightly (imo) since Araya is actually a practicing Catholic and doesn't feel his music promotes satanism or anything like that but I get what you meant since araya doesn't have that slightly queer look to him, he's doing the same masculine persona as the others like hetfield and mustaine who are more actually like that also I wanted to flex on recognizing araya from that little clip, lol thank you for humoring me if you're reading this!
I read LHROOH a decade or two ago, but only relatively recently realised that it was "co"-authored by Neil Strauss.. something I found equally humourous and unsettling
@@ajasen @ajasen He meant it at the time as far as I know, but he had an unexpected redemption arc later on in life.. However the book seemed to be a sort of revered foundation of some online communities that are definitely unhealthy (and took the book as gospel ... with limited success, I suppose)
I don't agree with the concept of "abuse as default" as applies to fame and power. Truly good people don't have the desire to abuse and take advantage of others and naturally don't get turned on by the act of degrading others. Putting them into a scenario where they can behave like that without consequence won't suddenly make them want to do it and it won't change their underlying orientation. That is, it won't create an urge towards behaviors/attitudes that previously weren't desirable and won't erase disgust or aversion to behaviors/attitudes that was already present. Thinking like this seems nuanced and fair minded but it actually helps the abuse continue because it grooms victims to believe anyone would abuse others if given the chance and makes them think the choices are between a person who abuses others because he's allowed and a person who acts nice because he's forced...while completely ignoring the existence of people who don't feel an inclination to abuse in the first place and cannot be made to. Abe Lincoln once said, "To test a man's character, give him power."
As a young teenager many decades ago, I read his book and then got into his music. Fast forward to the mid 2000s, I was at one of his shows when I was 18 and a roadie came into the crowd and gave me and my friend a guitar pick from the show and asked us if we'd like to go backstage. My friend was star eyed and before she could even respond, I gave a firm "NO" and watched her disintegrate before my eyes. I looked at her and said "Dude, you read his book too. He's a jerk, why would we go meet him?" She was bitter about it for years. The moral of the story is, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. The fact of the matter is, he wrote a book and whether the content of that book is true or not, that is who he WANTS the world to think he is. I don't believe in victim shaming, because no one deserves to be victimized, but there is an element of responsibility that people shrug. If I met someone and they literally had a book and mountains of media appearances, you're damn right I would look into it before any sort of dependence is formed. Less than halfway through his book, you'd nope your way out of rubbing elbows with him and if you had to, you'd keep him at arm's reach. Whoopi Goldberg said "When did we stop teaching our daughters not to go into rooms alone with men?" and to be honest, there's some validity there. When I was single, I stopped accepting "can I buy you a drink" offers from men because there was always a stipulation. Being offered to be flown to someone’s home you don't know form across the world, I'm sorry but there will be stipulations there. Nature's credit card has the worst interest rate. We need to hold abusers accountable and not enable them, but we also need to use these situations as examples of teachable moments to not be victimized in the first place. Is it right to go to North Korea and be detained? No. But anyone who goes there and expects different results is generally branded a moron. It's the same principle.
I get that speaking out against the majority especially in this social media ruled world is a somewhat daunting and challenging prospect since going along with the general consensus and blending in allows you to stay connected and means you’re safe and shielded from being picked off and targeted. As you get older however you’re priorities change and you have, through life experience, gained a wisdom that you never had when you were younger, even though when you were younger you thought you knew everything and your opinion was the only one that mattered. As I’ve aged I’ve grown less worried about what people think, I never believe or simply trust one point of view or opinion instead I investigate it, ask the tough questions, think critically and then if I disagree with that view Im not afraid to speak up about it. Yes you are absolutely right that we don’t know celebrities personally only what we are shown or what is revealed to us by the media and third or fourth person accounts. So if this is as you say a reason to look beyond that when it comes to celebrities what makes you think that this does not also apply to non celebrities? Yes abuse is a terrible thing and believe me I know because I had to endure it when I was a child so it really bothers that you would twist and turn the response Manson gave in that interview when asked about Me Too and the Weinstein allegations. You say his answer that those who were abused or assaulted should go to the police first and report it is kind of naive, so where do you suggest victims go then? To social media? How does that help victims and how does that ensure that they at least get a legitimate shot at getting justice and protection? By insinuating that the police aren’t really going to help a victim you are essentially ensuring that they won’t report it and that fails to help them as well as any future victims their abuser may go on to abuse. It’s absolutely soul destroying having to speak about the abuse you suffered because you are essentially having to relive every single detail of it and you are right back there being sexually assaulted all over again. So it is extremely important that when a victim is talking through what happened to them that they are able to do so in a safe, respectful and supportive environment which police, hospitals etc can and are equipped to provide. What’s also and equally important is ensuring these accusations are investigated properly, and then heard and prosecuted in a court of law. What should not happen is for these accusations to be made in a kind of social media kangaroo court, where judgements about a persons - celebrity or not - guilt are decided based on little evidence and only one point of view. THAT is not justice, it is merely accusation and defamation because a person is deemed innocent until proven otherwise. It is extremely damaging to a person who has been accused but not convicted and it is also just as damaging to the victim because such social media exposure could eventuate in not being able to get a fair trial, where their voices can be heard and where it matters the most- in a court of law. A court of law is where someones guilt or innocence is decided not on social media or mainstream media for that matter and until convicted they are innocent and have the right to be referred to as such. If the accusations are the truth and not one or a collective of people’s truth then it will be determined in a law court. Living within a democratic country these are the governments and systems that we as a people have elected to live within and be governed by and should you oppose or disagree with it then vote or try to change it. These kinds of crimes are terrible and understandably they evoke a profound reaction and strong emotions and opinions, so it’s really important to recognise and distinguish the difference between our emotional responses at what we are being told and what the facts and the tangible evidence shows to be true. To do that you must look at the whole situation, listen to both sides, research and think critically. Otherwise as a society we have categorically failed to evolve in any meaningful way and every time a finger is pointed or an accusation is made we may as well pick up our torches and pitchforks as they did in Salem, round up the accused and burn them solely on the word of their accusers, regardless of what their accusers true motivations for denouncing them are!! It’s a hard truth and I truly wish it wasn’t the case but yes unfortunately there are many people who do in fact lie about being abused or assaulted, especially in this post me too world because now more than ever a spotlight is being shone upon these issues and crimes and people’s voices are being heard. There are I’m afraid unscrupulous people who are seeking to capitalise off the pain and trauma that real victims are experiencing in an attempt to steal the spotlight, get the media and public attention, fame, revive their waning careers and profit from it. It’s truly awful but it is happening, especially now when it seems no evidence or proof is required to believe that such a crime actually took place and that simply saying it took place is all the truth that is required to be believed without a shadow of a doubt. There is also plenty of evidence in this case that does in fact show that the majority of these accusations are false or supported by falsified evidence, but of course that isn’t being acknowledged, disseminated or discussed. Personally I think that’s because people are always swayed by the emotion of a person and their story rather than what the tangible emotionless facts and evidence show to be true. In the end though a persons accusation, truth and story emotional or otherwise is just that, it’s the actual evidence and hard facts that will prove an accusation to be true or false. It’s important to make that distinction and to cease treating a person as if they are guilty until they have been found to be so. Destroying someone’s life, reputation and career based on an as yet unproven accusation is an equally awful and abusive thing to do to a person, as has been seen with the Depp / Heard case and it’s also possible that you could find yourself at the end of someone’s pointed finger of accusation. As someone who did contact the police to make a statement about the child sexual abuse I suffered, I believed it to be an extremely important step to take, not just for myself but for any other victims of the same abuser. Before that I only ever discussed it with my closest friends, family and my psychiatrist, I was advised for my own sake not to use social media to reveal or discuss it. It really does trouble me that for all the good things the me too movement has done, that this eagerness to accept and believe such accusations as the truth even before it has been proven to be true will, in the not too distant future have repercussions that will effectively turn back the clock for those of us who have lived through terrible abuse. As for myself (and I’m sure many others may agree with me) you never ever forget the abuse you had to endure, you push it down or compartmentalise it just so you are able to survive and function day to day. You self medicate or self harm, in fact you do just about anything to make it go away and to stay numb so you don’t have to remember and be feeling it all the time day in day out 7 days a week for the rest of your life. You never completely forget or repress what happened to you, you just try every day to live with it as best you can and find comfort and joy when and where you can and being able to report it to police and share it with people who not only believe you but are equipped to provide help and support is an absolutely essential part of finding some kind of peace and resolution. When you exaggerate, make false accusations or make those accusations public via social media rather than reporting it firstly to the police, you not only destroy the lives of those who you accuse, but you also destroy the lives of people who have suffered and lived through abuse and violence because you’ve just made it that much harder for the rest of us to speak up and to be believed.
Whatever the truth about him, Manson is clearly an adept manipulator. The book excerpts were very telling, in which he gave away everything and nothing, bringing both 'sides' into his camp. I never liked the artifice and circus reality he contrived around himself, and clearly relished - the whole thing always seemed to be more about image than any other quality - something that has a genuinely dark edge now, in light of the revelations. Hetfield and Araya may not have run rings around journalists in the same way that Manson did, and may even have been 'hyper masculine' to some degree, at the point in their careers from which those clips were taken...but at least they were also direct and straight forward (which doesn't equate to stupid, by the way). This is not to say that they (especially Araya, more than Hetfield) couldn't be dicks sometimes....but neither have been at the centre of rape/abuse allegations, at that time or since. There's perhaps an interesting juxtaposition there, wherein the aggressive and hyper masculine artists have been less exploitative of women than the gender bending artist with a cerebral rep.
I think this video helped a lot actually, I've been a bit torn up over Anti Flag of late, and being familiar with the story didn't help super much when it hit something that really was that important to me.
I see a lot of parallels between this case and the case of Till Lindemann, the lead singer of Rammstein. In 2023, there was a lady who came forward and claimed that Lindemann basically tried to pressure her into having sex with him DURING THE CONCERT, and whe she declined, he got really angry and yelled at her. After she brought up these allegations, there was a whole swath of anonymous allegations similar to (and ofter times worse than) hers. It was a whole thing in the german media, and of course, it ded dowm within a couple of months. It did, however, bring to light the whole system than was in place to coerce young women into having sex with Lindemann, and it did even result in certain brands dropping their partnerships with both Rammstein and Lindemann himself. But of course, cancelling never really works. He's still a rock star adored by millions and the women were silenced. Unfortunately, nothing new.
She was blacklisted due to it. People love sucking up to powerful men, even in supposedly counter cultural spaces. People will warn each other about “hey don’t work with xyz,” but when that person finally confronts accusations they’ll defend them like they weren’t talking about them a few months earlier, all because they trick themselves into thinking being close with them will give them connections.
I will always be a massive mm fan, my favorite artist, but this video laid out really good unbiased discussion that I think is really important. Part of the reason I love art and why I think human art vs AI will always be better, is the artist. In this case the paradox of (marilyn)//(manson) holds so true with the paradox of the good and evil in everyone, to the extreme, that although I do not support any of the wrong doings of MM, I cant help but still appreciate the art on the level that it is. That being said separating the person of Brian Warner with the art of Marilyn Manson is absolutely necessary if you want to indulge in such extremes. edit: I also really appreciate specifically adorning a known mm look for this vid, which I interpreted as the difficulty you had to be so rightfully critical to us
Just read his book, it is so insightful on his inner state and personality, not a persona he has on stage. Unless everything in that book is untrue and false, which is pointless, he is that abusive type of person.
I was a massive Lostprophets fangirl, so while I didn’t have much of a personal relationship with MM’s music, I definitely recognised a lot of these feelings from processing what we saw happened with Watkins. It’s a relief in some ways that the thing I latched onto emotionally as a teenager didn’t really achieve a level of broad cultural significance that it couldn’t slip into obscurity - you’ll never hear Lostprophets on the radio now. Manson and Jackson will continue to have stylistic influence for years to come, and that feels weird and wrong to me, part of the getting away with it. I don’t want to tell people that they shouldn’t be able to enjoy the music that they built their own connection to and experience of… equally I really haven’t made peace with it enough to bless that choice when people make it.
I wasn't surprised. With how horribly he treated his band members. Think about it? Gingerfish, Twiggy, and John 5 are all gone. Two of them are with Rob. Also, never forget about Daisy Berkowitz.
You spoke very intelligently on almost everything involved here but I still have an issue with her maintaining the whole "i was a child" narrative. Yes she was 19 but a Hollywood actress/model who'd been in the business for years....not your typical 19 year old from Ohio or something. Just things to consider. Neither of them are innocent. I just feel the level that she has gone to...especially saying what she said about the Heart Shaped Glasses video shoot???!!!!!! That's when I knew for sure that there were credibility issues with her "stories" as i now call them. They truly are misrepresentations of the truth..
Manson was the first real show I went to just after Portrait...came out. I really liked that album and thought it was hilarious that I caught the last artist that parents were really worried about their kid listening to. Like people actually thought a rock singer could lure kids into a parent-murdering sex cult. I didn't like much of his subsequent stuff but did like that he seemed to be funny and well-spoken. I DID read his autobio when it was first published and it turned me off more because it was gross and he came across like a bully (mind you, I was 17 at the time when I thought this). My heart breaks for the women he abused and I guess, like you say, the one good lesson is that you don't have to disregard the positives you got from someone who turned out to be a monster.
forgot to ask people to subscribe to my channel because I'm very good at youtube. please subscribe to my channel. esp as I can’t monetise this one thanks to the columbine clip. that’d be great. thanks. ajsfljdkjj
What if we already subbed to your channel and liked already?
@@infesticon make a second account coward
@@infesticon un like and un sub, probably. 🙃
@Shonalika ummmm....you've really not. Just your run of the mill wannabe. But hey thats just my opinion. Isnt it supposed to be innocent until proven guilty BTW ?
Maybe you should do your homework when attempting to put together a video as if you're some kinda of journalist. And on that note....you actually have to Have an actual education to become a journalist BTW.
@@seawatersoul333 Aw. You’ll be ok, little buddy. Probably lol
I would like to add that rape statistics are generally underreported, doubly so for male victims, or female perpetrators.
I grew up a huge Manson fan in the '90's too. It's wild how a total stranger can inspire such creativity in others. But like you said it's our creativity that comes from us, not him. Trying to untangle my own thoughts and feelings from how I used to view him has become a strange experience in a good way. This video is amazing. Thanks for making it! And congrats on your top surgery.
“Learning not to credit my thought processes to their stimuli” is so smart
That part really stuck out to me, too! As I've moved away from my religious upbringing, I don't discount the many powerful experiences I had within my church - they came from me and my community, not a deity or supernatural force. I can still find meaning in those memories.
@@emilyrlnHonestly, that's one of the main reason I don't believe in God in the first place.
I was very inspired and attached to him when younger. And you are right, I realised awhile ago that putting aside his music, I he was so stuck in a conservative mindset and that I had taken the inspiration and run further than he ever could or would and he was a relic of the past.
But having been a part of that fan group, yeh. The peer pressure and consent issues (along with the levels of encouraged substance abuse) amongst the whole crew, band, and fans ... made everything blurry and definitely was power differential gone wild. Your comments on this are so balanced, on point and important for everyone's safety. Thank you.
Recently a friend of mine died who was one of the first (she said she was the first) person to come out about Manson’s abuse of her as a fan and I’m so thankful you’re making this video. My friend was in a late nineties/early 2000s goth band and her story of Manson was just horrible and she used TikTok to tell her story up until the day she died. I just hope that more people listen to how awful this man is and the way he has taken advantage of people. Again thank you- i know my friend would have shared this video far and wide.
Just in case any one wants to look her story up- her name was LexaVonn
Yes police made it clear at time this was a false accusation. Don't worry all these others will automatically believe you and this you tuber 🤣🤣
@@Lilacrosepetalleaf no they haven’t. Where is this proof you speak of?
@@Lilacrosepetalleaf I’ve been doing research and can’t find anything by police saying such a thing. It’s not like i trust police as it is, a judge threw out MM’s lawsuit against ERW saying that his claims of defamation were baseless. Police raided MMS house in 2021 and there are no updates on that
@@balsosnellstilldreaming yeah she had cancer. I never was saying that it was from Brian wtf
God, the old footage of him, ESPECIALLY talking shit to Bill Maher, is so confronting and inspiring to me, even now. It feels so basic if you're invovled in queer discourse online today. But, I'm 42 and I was a queer person who was closeted in rural WI when he first got big. He was so important to me then. I wasn't even a fan of his music, I just valued him as a cultural lightning rod. It was radicalizing for me to see how easily people blamed him for Columbine, too, so I felt protective of him for years out of nostalgia. Great video!
I'm not surprised this guy is a good friend of Johnny Depp.
I was a college radio DJ in the early 90s, so I was able to get backstage passes to a lot of shows. My sister was very into metal, so I wound up seeing a lot of metal shows and meeting the bands - famous and not-so-famous bands. As a female presenting person, I can unequivocally state that men in metal bands who treated female presenting people respectfully were the exception, not the rule. I experienced a lot of shitty things that I would now call abuse and sexual assault, but, at the time, I thought it was just part of the rock and roll experience. I didn't like it, but I never expected it to be any other way because it was just accepted that abusing women was one of the "perks" of being a musician. It's hard for me to imagine that Marilyn Manson and Johnny Depp did not believe, like every other male musician in the late 80s/early 90s, that they were entitled to these "perks." And, unfortunately, fame and money can isolate people from reality so they never truly have to face how their actions have hurt other people.
yes yes all of this. I'm sorry you had those shitty experiences
Also it wasn't any particular subculture that had a misogyny problem. That was the culture all around. Dont think it was different in pop, rap, art, cinema or finance
@@akshaydePatriarchy gonna patriarchy wherever you may be.
@@akshayde I am inclined to think that rock/metal etc is so well known for this because it is a "subculture" and looked down upon even to this day. Doesn't make it good but damn, the amount of well known people doing this shit is staggering
@@WitheringRowan i think that's a matter of what subcultures we pay attention to. Rock and roll was always "rebellious andsexy" unlike metal which was more serious. So sexual exploits of Rockstars were bragging rights in a conservative society.
(this is NOT about SA or anything like that) In 2015 I went to Manson's concert in a relatively small venue in Vienna. I was 17, this was the first concert that I deliberately bought tickets for, of a band I actively listened to, and I was REALLY excited, cause at that point I had been a huge Manson fan for like 4 or 5 years. Funnily enough, that concert also started my slow disillusionment with him. The concert itself was great, they played all of their great hits, even the old ones, and some bsides that I loved, and he did that whole costume change after every two or three songs and brought out various props I never thought I'd see live. But after the last song, which noone knew was the last song, the whole band just vanished in the smoke and lights and suddenly the concert was over. No shoutout to the bandmembers or the crew, no thank you for coming to the audience, no encore, no goodbye, no bow, nothing. They just finished and left. And after such a great concert I was so so disappointed. It felt like a slap in the face. That's when I sort of realised that he wasn't just playing a character, he really believed he was so cool he didn't owe it to the audience to at least let us know the show was ending, let alone thank us for being there. It was a tiny thing, but it began the process of unraveling my idolisation of him. Over time my interests changed and I stopped listening to his music before I even knew about all the bad shit he's done. And yet, when I did learn about it, it was SO hard to accept. It's still weird reckoning with all that. Cause of course it's not just him, Johnny Depp was my favourite actor as a kid and teen and we all know where that went. And more. And I'm not certain I know better now. It's so easy to tie your own identity to artists and creators you like and it really hurts when they do things you find ethically or morally bad. I simply don't know how to not do it.
For me it's when I saw him like 2017 2018 for the first time and he slurred through the entire set, very drunk, high, or both.
It sounds like you're still disillusioned.
@@ahm3096 yes? I'm not sure you understand the word disillusioned
I had a similar experience back in the early oughts. But hey, Disturbed was the opening act and they were brilliant, so it was a good concert, Manson or no.
The fake FBI letter....
I don't want to take away from the subject matter, especially because I'm only a third of the way into the video, but I think your makeup is on point, and I love the asymmetric eye makeup. Goals.
tysm ^^
Side note: Manson didn’t actually write that book. It’s pretty well known he had a ghostwriter for that book….
Talking about the song Kim made me think about the situation with "Forget Her" by Jeff Buckley, a song that's nowhere as nasty. It's practically pleasant about its subject in comparison.
It was supposed to be on the album Grace, and even appeared on some early review copies, but was swapped out shortly before release. When asked why by someone who had heard the song, he said something along the lines that it was because the person it was written about (who is never named) would know and she shouldn't have to hear those thoughts, so he made the decision to never release the song in any form.
Unfortunately, his wishes were not honoured after his death and reissues of the album have it as a bonus track.
It's about as different an approach as possible, scrapping what is a really good song because he knew it had the potential to hurt someone even if most people would never know who it's about.
oh this is super interesting, I didn't know that backstory to the song! don't even know if I agree with him lmao, relationships are such a key source of inspiration and holding back on songs like Forget Her would be a LOT of valuable creativity and catharsis down the toilet. still, definitely worth weighing up and v interesting to know that was the reason for it being unreleased initially
unrelated but on the subject of JB, I have such strange feelings listening to his posthumous stuff. I LOVE so much of it but you can really tell that they're well, sketches, exactly as the title says, and we really should never have gotten access to them if that wasn't what the artist wanted
Thank you for being so articulate about this, I always learn so much from you. ❤
NO! It's a harmful myth that victims of abuse will become abusers. Please stop repeating this!
"In her book Predators, Anna C. Salter talks about how most men convicted of child sexual abuse will simply say that they were abused as children because it affords them more sympathy. In reality, fewer than 10% of them actually were."
The rest of the video was great. Please consider cutting that line or putting a note.
This comment needs to be way higher.
Yes!!!!!
I think I phrased it more as something I * thought * was true than as researched fact, but yes, thanks for pointing that out as def important not to spread misinformation on this type of thing if that is the case regardless. (not possible to edit the video now but will try to take more care in future)
@@Shonalikabut you can put it in the description right?
Truly hilarious to hear MM tell people to "go to the police" if they have a problem!
We were not present or involved in neither of his relationships, therefore I do not know what happened, and neither do you. That's why I'm staying out of it and leaving it to the authorities.☯️
It's awful how being part of a subculture made me liable to turn away from Manson's rattling comments about his exes, because I too felt I was capable of having cruel and violent thoughts, so my lack of understanding of the world made me brush it off. Thankfully I know better now that I'm an adult.
I think in this age we cannot afford to be disingenuous towards people we admire in the face of so much glaring evidence to be taken into account. We have to accept that evil people can make good art, and the existence of that good art shouldn't be a reason to not hold them accountable for what they do.
Thanks for making this nuanced videos talking about this subject. As someone who grew up listening to his songs, this subject has been so upsetting, not because I couldn't believe it, but because I was sadly not surprised at all.
Really incisive commentary, thank you Shona. I often feel like fandom is one of the most inherently problematic concepts out there, but the things that can grow out of fandom - community, collaboration, connection - are so valuable and cannot be taken away by the object of adoration. Fuck all powerful abusive narcissists, but here's to good memories and good friends.
all your videos are so insightful and emotionally intelligent in ways that ASTOUND me every time. this one was especially wonderful, i honestly haven't seen anyone else tackling this conversation with one fifth of the nuance and maturity shown in this essay. i agreed with pretty much everything you said but my eyes felt like they were being opened with each new insightful comment. seriously. i need to sit down and think about some of the stuff you said in here again, because i'm sure i didn't catch it all the first time. you hit the nail on the head as usual; keep up the great work!
I'm so glad you put in a clip of the 2017 interview, which I was very put off by and instantly started being suspicious of him. It's almost an indirect way of telling on himself....
Great video. I wasn't a Manson fan, but I was, until recently, a huge Rammstein fan. Given the allegations, I can relate a lot to the subject matter here.
I've been aRammstein fan for 20+ years. The situation seems very similar than Manson with all these manosphere nutjob types springing up to defend him. They don't strike me as representative of the R+ community i knew. More like wandering misogynists from the general metal scene who have latched on to the fight for their own reasons.
I have a whole bunch of conflicting emotions about it. Having been around the fan community for so long I know *enough* that the accusations don't surprise me in the least. I miss being able to enjoy the music. Part of me feels sorry for the other members that it's taken the whole thing down. But also pissed off at them for not clamping down on his bullshit. And by extension I also feel some guilt that we as a fan community were complicit in what was going on. Because you only have to search up the old Reddit threads to realise how well known it was. We've all fucking seen row zero. We've heard the stories.
I saw some comments, post-allegations but pre the current Johnny Depp anti-victim wave, saying Manson was yuck, how could anyone ever fancy him, not realise he was creepy?
And that's just ungoths choosing not to notice that their aesthetic doesn't fit everyone, 'cause he WAS hot for fifteen years or so, clever, subversive, challenging, intriguing.
I'd love to assert that having an outrageous persona is not inherently stapled to being abusive, but Manson, Aiden, MSI, Tool, BotDF, Rammstein, name a few hundred more but don't ask me about it, ain't doing us many favours. It'd be lovely if we could maintain the right to be outrageous without the abuse.
I've noticed Rachel Stamp are a band who Do The Thing but are so clearly lovely and inclusive. And openly queer artists are more likely to go that way. Alice Cooper's wholesome except for Depp apologetics and political apathy. I always had him down as what Marilyn was trying to be, but he never possessed the essential warmth. But by trying to naming examples, I'm falling for it. These are some sentences.
Marilyn Manson is here for a reason. He added a passion to my dreams that I didn’t realize I needed to pursue those dreams. Everyone is good and evil. What’s the point of Christianity if you don’t have Satan? You need evil to know good and vise versa.
welp, one day after this comment, Alice Cooper came though with some gender bigotry, the kind that leads to a lot of harm. directly demonstrates the risk involved with expressing faith in any celeb
edit: his (current) bigotry was published a few days ago.
@@Eyeintheredsky I feel that MM's treatment of teenage girls isn't here for a reason.
Regarding Christianity vs. Satan, I feel that the creator of Antichrist Superstar was probably making some points about the constructs of Christianity, and the good-vs-evil they encourage, more than actually rooting for evil.
You are one of my favourite TH-camrs. Thank you for covering this topic
This is coincidentally something I've been thinking a lot about lately. The way people are very eager to see the creators of the art they admire as either saints or demons.
I see people immediately jump to conclusions of "where there signs all along?" or "so this is what they were "really" like, I'm so disappointed"
There is an interesting way that people tie their content and art consumption to their morality that urges them to make very emotional decisions regarding the artists they love that have let them down or that others love/loved. We try to find what liking "x" problematic person tells about ourselves. There are certain artists whose work I have trouble consuming because of things that have happened in their private lives and others that I don't.
You were exactly right, no one is "innocent", there is not necessarily a clear cut hero and villain in more situations in real life. At the end of the day it is important to remember that critique and discussion like this is a very integral part of how we evolve our cultural tastes and the type of art being made, but also sometimes it serves no one.
If Manson's work spoke to you then that can be true at the same time as him being an abusive prick. "It wasn't him. It was me looking at him". I love that.
Parasocial relationships do not necessarily have to be negative, but I think being aware of the fact that your relationship is one sided, that you do not have true access to the other person's life, their uncurated sense of self, is a huge part of unpacking how in modern times we end up consuming images of our idols as part of ourselves. So much food for thought!
SHONALIKA DROP DAY WITH A BANGER VIDEO POGGERS!!!!
I mean, the thing is "believe victims" is statistically mostly the correct thing to do, considering how few accusations are fake. Even if I don't know 100% for sure if Till Lindermann did all the things he is accused of, I'll still stop giving Rammstein my money and support because I think personally that is the right thing to do. Continuing to talk about him and that band as "this cool thing" just feels wrong.
Also with MM, knowing his persona is most likely his real self, it sucks any joy out of the music and outrageous interviews or whatnot.
The bits of the Rammstein story that he **isn't denying** still make him an incredibly shitty excuse for a human being. So the legal investigations are basically irrelevant to where my relationship with the band is at.
not to mention, how does marshall's daughter feel about that song about her mom? yikes.
I'm a simple man, I see a new video from you, I click. You are amazing!
I really appreciate it!
Thank you for the video. In Germany there's currently heavy discussion and legal battles about the case of Till Lindemann, Rammstein singer, and possibly other members of the band, which is very similar. I've been following this a bit and it's really disheartening to read comments about it. "Innocent until proven guilty" gets weaponised in absurd ways, and it's certainly not extended to the women who've come forward with the allegations, who "clearly" are after all the money, fame, and I guess character assassination and death threats they get.
There's discussion about some allegations that would be clear crimes, but the band and singer don't even deny that there was (and apparently still is, but more discreetly) a system in place to recruit young female fans for sex. Not criminal in itself, but quite abusive: they weren't told beforehand what this was about, no age check, lots of alcohol around, they sit there until the idol shows up and chooses among them. No one seems to care about that. And a lot of the fans are very convinced that Lindemann didn't do the criminal stuff, which.. I mean I don't exactly know the truth either, but the allegations come from different women, are about different points in time, Lindemann wrote and published a poem about committing the specific type of abuse the allegations are about, AND we know that there's a whole system in place where young fans are treated and used in a dehumanising way. I certainly have an opinion about the likelihood of the allegations being true.
But even if none of the criminal stuff happened: people don't get that when someone tells you that your idol wants to meet you, you are in a fantasy world where they have touched you deeply, and you maybe get to tell them that or think they will understand you, they would of course care about you just as you deeply care about them, not just use you to get off or do something a lot worse even. The superfans who are so convinced of his innocence are, in fact, in the same fantasy world that allows the idol to take advantage of other fans. And their misogyny just allows them to stay there.
I think your point about reclaiming what may have been inspired by them as coming from within ourselves is excellent and I will treasure that piece of wisdom!
all of this, the second to last paragraph especially. it's really just not as simple as legal = good and illegal = bad and I wish more people understood that
What shocked me the most about the discourse surrounding Till Lindemann- how many 30+ year old men came out of the woodwork to defend him by justify their OWN (past) relationships with 14-17 year old kids because of the ambiguity of our German laws.
They feel safe enough to be loud and proud about how they exploit children who still need to hand in sick notes signed by their parents when they miss class.
Fwiw I was a 20+ year rammstein fan. I'm well into double digits for shows, including having travelled internationally to see them. Most of the people defending Till now aren't what I would recognise as Rammstein superfans. They seem more like generic metal bros that have latched onto this thing as an outlet for their misogyny.
For anyone that's actually been following this band seriously then the allegations are ...hard to doubt. Which raises a whole bunch of questions about the extent to which the fandom (which I've been part of) are culpable for not raising the alarm. Row zero was right there in plain sight at every show and lots of people know women who were in it.
This is a tough but important video for me as I was a huge fan of Manson growing up. Thank you. As an aside, I love your sidecut - I just reshaved mine after growing it out for a while 🖤🖤🖤
Thank you for mentioning Rammstein/Till Lindemann
Timestamp please? I watched it a second time after I saw your comment and somehow still didn't catch this!
@@balsosnellstilldreaming ...yeah, generally speaking the deeper a person has been into the R+ fan community the less difficulty they have believing it. Everyone knew what Row zero was about and how Aleena was recruiting for it. Everyone knew what a shitty person Joe Letz is. There are reddit threads going back years that anyone can look up. And still we have these generic metal bros turning up and telling us they 'stand with till" when they don't know shit about this band.
@@balsosnellstilldreaming I was there at he concert in Vilnius, I met the girl who accused him and even though that's probably not the worst thing he has done i saw how creepy his recruiter was and the lie he told her that it would not be sexual. Till respected her saying No and did not harass her for sex her further that night as far as we know. I have no problem believing that if not Till then Joe spiked her. Joe was an addict, has beaten his girlfriends and harassed fans (only seeing them as sex objects), recruited girls for sex for both Till and Man ( is also still hanging out with both Manson and Till, he can be seen at Manson's birthday party) Alena, a Russian woman will known in the music industry for supplying young girls to men is also connected to both Manson and Till) I have no problem believing everything said about him is true because they are surrounded by "yes men" and drugs.
Marilyn Manson and Till are also prone to telling us exactly who they are though their music, I don't take it 100% seriously because it is art but Tills recent solo career involves so much thinking about crime punishment, women and rape that I cant help but to think that is on his mind recently. If someone tells you who they are you should listen.
@@k8g8s8If you think that artistic expression through song is the same as someone “telling you who they are” you’re beyond delusional.
In some way, I think you're now doing the work that we (probably mistakenly) believed that Manson was doing back in the day - promoting social and cultural criticism, scrutinizing power structures, trying to share tools to survive and to empower the disempowered. I'll try not to project too much onto you, though, in case I find out next week that you eat kittens or something
*kicks fur-covered plate under bed*
in all seriousness, absolutely. very much would like people to take away from this the presence of mind not to just do what they did with MM with someone else instead
"In the 80s Rockstars just slept with children..." reminded me of the Elvira auto-biography where she details being a groupie as a teen and it was a mess, and even getting sexually abused. It's one of those things that now we'd be hyper-aware of if it was that public, but more often than not those parasocial relationships drive the drama unfortunately.
Thank you for this report as so many on TH-cam seem to take his side, providing illogical arguments. This one is on the contrary such a great analysis.
I don’t want it to seem like I’m just crapping on everything said in the video lol… I know my comments are in defense of him and correcting some things that were said… I do love your videos and how you deliver the message, and I definitely think this video had a very important underlying message. You made so many valid and perceptive points, I love what you said at the end about your thought process came from you and not an outside influence… so I wanted to comment and say, I really do appreciate this video. However, I don’t agree with your thoughts on Manson, especially since he did not write that book… but I do think what you said is so important when it comes to power imbalances and the dynamic it creates…
"That wasn't marilyn manson, that was me LOOKING at marilyn manson" -- brilliant.
If you are being assaulted please call 911 right away. Be brave be strong. Thanks
nailed it. Shonalika expresses stuff optimally
There's an artist who wrote a song called "Sorry, Out of Gender" which helped me come out to my partner as non-binary. I hope they never turn out to be a creep or anything, but if they do, I'll take the good I got from them and move on to make something new with it. ❤
What was heartbreaking to me about this whole situation (aside from just all of it at once), was that MM was an artist I bonded with my dad over. I thought my dad was so cool, this dorky Catholic guy, being like "No MM is cool, his music actually has a good message". But the point you made about his work being so up for interpretation, is probably why two very different people in the same family could love his work. And secondarily, the stories of abuse by his accusers mimicked parts of my own life. It was a double whammy. But what I have gained from all of this, is knowing my father and I will always love each other and love music together. And I can lean on those stories from MM survivors knowing that what I have experienced by my own abusers is not an isolated incident. I am not alone in the world.
No one “survived” MM. Look at how ERW literally forged an fbi document to coerce others in her goon squad to agree to the hit piece on MM. She lost custody of her own children for being an insane person ffs. It’s pathetic how quick people are to believe this shit even when there are mountains of evidence to the contrary; and under even the most basic scrutiny, the allegations against MM fall apart. Even one of the women ERW coerced into joining her crusade later backed out and filed a formal legal document saying she was pressured and conned into this lie.
I'm late to the discussion but Ive been watching a lot of videos about MM lately and figured I'd chime in. Firstly I really like this video.
Secondly, Id like to talk about something I dont think a lot of people touch up on. MM is very calculated, hes intelligent, hes manipulative. He has admitted in the past to take interest in psychology, mind games, and all that stuff. I think he started out as a borderline personality, who had dived a bit too deep into psychology and then started using it against vunerable people to gain power and fame. Its no coincidence that the fanbase mainly consists of men who have been bullied or been through trauma and women who have had abusive relationships, childhood trauma etc. I used to be a huge manson fan. It wasnt until i got older and became an adult, that i realized that manson has a specific charm towards girls who grew up in dysfunctional households. Me being one of them. My many friends who loved manson also being one of them. He is the epitome of a predator. He seeks out vunerable people because they are easy to exploit. He uses cult leader tactics, through spreading ideologies, using symbolism, using the "enemy" to create closeness, enemy being parents/government/normies who dont get it. Theres a lot of thought put into it and knowing manson and his intelligence i assure you its all calculated. Its hard to be shocked or surprised by any of it. He is openly a messed up person. Healthy minded people dont act like this. They dont keep this persona 24/7.
I wish someone made a video about the psychology of manson.
I'm a HUGE fan of Lana Del Rey (the music! Lol!), like, to the point where I'm considering shelling out the equivalent of a month of my rent just to see her in concert, but I've never felt the need to "cape" for her or whatever when she does something foolish or "problematic"... let alone if she's ever accused of actually being abusive! 😳
to the point about speaking up when people misuse or abuse their power, i just want to say that personally, as a person who has tried really hard to be fair in relationships and communicate and do right by the other person, it is ABSOLUTELY in your best interest to tell someone when youre hurt by them. otherwise you suffer in silence and the "evil" person never learns and grows until it's too late-- until it's impossible for them to make the situation better for you. not to mention, the "evil" person suffers a lot when they would have done what they could, had you given them a chance and the room in your heart to improve. overall, it's just the best thing to do to self-advocate no matter who is made uncomfortable or upset, unless you have PROOF the other person will ignore or is ignoring you. that's me speaking from personal experience.
I'm living laughing and loving for your eye makeup🤩
Thank you for this video - I'm partway through listening to it but I have to go back to work, so I'm dropping a comment here for appreciation + hopefully some algorithmic engagement! ❤
On Howard Stern in 1998, Manson said about his book: "If there'd be anything I'm ashamed of, I can always say it was fiction." In an interview with Spin Magazine he said: "[The book] was mostly dictated. I would tell Neil Strauss stories, because I don't have the patience or skill to write them down myself. I'm sure in a month or so I'll deny things I've said and attribute them to drug use or coercion by Neil."
So the rumor that the book is fiction was spread by Manson himself.
th-cam.com/video/95K_we4IXhE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Yw0gg4x5-BtGFgrh
u r one of the best youtubers... i'm so glad ur making more videosssssss
When I originally heard the allegations, not even sure which ones honestly, I remember my immediate thought something along the lines of "Wow the guy who wrote multiple songs about filming a snuff video on a woman he thinks he owns did something against people's consent? I am negative amounts surprised". Mind you, saying this as someone who actually did follow his music pretty closely.
In a snuff movie the girl gets killed, well this one is very much alive
th-cam.com/video/ySwRRYomG0k/w-d-xo.htmlsi=YWOUefOTzDW0ws21
you've given me a lot to think about! especially attributing what i interpret and become inspired by as gospel itself - i'm doing the transformation of the material, not the rockstar or whoever
thank you for speaking out about this.
This one spoke a lot to me because I probably grew up at the same time as you with the same kind of affection for him; and I was very much one of those kids who loved Marilyn Manson as someone I could point at in response to dismissive adults: "See! Metal and Goth music isn't trash. It's thoughtful and expressive art!" Even growing out of the metal scene, I still very much had Manson embedded in my mind as this "thoughtful and self-aware artist", which made the accusations by Evan Rachel Wood shocking to me, because in my mind "thoughtful and self-aware people don't sexually abuse others." But it's like you've highlighted, there are plenty of signs there that while he was thoughtful and self-aware in some areas, perhaps it was just an act, or something he only did for certain subjects, and very clearly wasn't thoughtful and self-aware about the power dynamics of a relationship with a girl half his age, or extreme comments he made about dealing with his relationship with her (e.g. the violent fantasies, self-harm to hurt her, etc.). And whilst the accusations jolted with the image I had of him in my mind at first, in hindsight, it really shouldn't have surprised me.
Great work on this video. You make excellent points, and it's a very informative examination.
Thank you for making this video.
The halo effect is *extremely* real, especially when fame is concerned.
Not only can harm be *extremely* probable given the power dynamics you've cited,
not only can harm without consequence become abuse and behavior become more extreme over time (if it isn't abuse to begin with), there seems to be minimal accountability until case after case presents itself. Fans, the public, and the legal system contribute so much strongly to the perception that unless sexual assault and abuse meet the most stereotypical definitions, they don't count...
and then, in the event that the abuse does meet those criteria, victims are still blamed, legally and socially.
It seems like we punish people - put them through outright hell is a better way to put it - for being inconvenient evidence that people whose work and images we attach to aren't the people we wanted them to be.
If, as the internet claims, we want to hold those in power to higher standards and create a more supportive environment for survivors,
we need to be aware of so much of what you outlined in this video, think critically, and behave accordingly.
This was great, thank you.
Finding out that Twiggy abused and stole the aesthetic of Jessicka Addams and that Scott Michael Putesky AKA Daisy Berkowitz, the best guitar player MM ever had, was forced to crowdfund his cancer treatments and ultimately died because MM dicked him out of money, made me do a complete reckoning of this period of my life. And also, yeah, I was like fourteen when A Long Hard Road... came out, I read it, and yes, anyone who has ready that book, including 14 year old me in 1998, absolutely knew for truth that MM was abusive to women.
Thank you for your hard work on this!
I am starting to get really annoyed by the claim "[false/frivolous] accusations hurt the real victims," that meme needs to die. We don't know who is lying or not, that's why we need to treat all accusations with care. The only ones who hurt "real victims," are those that make it harder for us to come forward. The only ones who hurt real victims are those that use false accusations as an excuse to dismiss the allegations of someone you like.
th-cam.com/video/95K_we4IXhE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Yw0gg4x5-BtGFgrh
He's the victim of lies
Accusations should *never* be blindly believed.
This is always a grim topic, but you covered it well (no surprise) and provided some interesting ideas I haven't heard in this context (also not surprising).
Also, on a less grim note...yay more music!
thanks so much
I just recently had to drop my favorite band after they let their creepy guitar player back into the band without ever publicly addressing the allegations against him. I was friendly with the drummer of the band and would talk with him before shows and unfortunately he was the biggest defender of said guitarist. It hurt to find out someone I looked up to and that inspired me to become a better drummer turned out to be on the wrong side of this to such a degree.
This is the best video on this topic by far. Thank you.
Thank you for this video!
This was powerful and wonderful and beautiful. Thank you
I basically assume anyone in the entertainment industry is either a perp or a victim or both. Like who would have thought that people in an industry where being on drugs is normal, no hr, and big egos would be toxic and abusive to each other?
Idk if youve ever hung out with ppl doing this many drugs but they get holes in their brains. They quit acting like you would expect a person to act. Aggressive nonsense behavior ensues. Abuse and toxicity.
Take the messages that matter to you in the music and the movies but remember that these people probably all wouldnt act how you would hope.
don't know what comment other than that I rarely subscribe after viewing a single video, but just did. Found your video on mastodon btw 🦊
amazing, thank you so much!!
great video, thanks for your work!
My sister adores his music. I'm am kind of glade she died the year before this came out. She wanted us to get matching mansion tattoos when we were kids. I'm so grateful we didn't give current day my gods.
Very good video! Thank you so much!
I would also love to see you make a video on the Depp v Heard case!
dunno if I've got that in me lol but I appreciate the sentiment!
fantastic video! leaving a placeholder comment to feed the algorithm gods until i digest it a little and can put together my thoughts into words in a coherent way. unless of course my adhd brain forgets about it 😬
Incisive and thought provoking video. Good stuff.
Who else thinks he has a 44 min timer to discuss art?
Thank you for this
1:42 Lol, it's not like we haven't known about the Kiedis and Tyler things for a LONG time. Hell, Kiedis wrote a goddamn song about the 18-year-old girlfriend he had when he was 40! It was called "She's Only 18"! 💀💀💀..... but I get your point... it's just not as new a phenomenon as a lot of people might think
This is a super good video. I do just have to express how much I love your hair. Lol. It's so fun.
I've been following a TH-camr the past few years called Stephi Lee, I found her inspirational she is predominantly a travel vlogger but she also talked about dealing with cystic fibrosis and now how a drug called trikafta has given her a life she couldn't have lived before. She was expecting to be dead or near death by now if this drug wasn't invented so it's given her a second lease on life.
So I found it pretty disappointing when recently she referred to Marilyn Manson as 'our Lord and Saviour', apparently she has a big issue with 'cancel culture' and I guess either feels he 'did nothing wrong' or worse that she thinks people with power should be allowed to get away with abuse, either of which aren't ideal.
It's not like she carried out the misdeeds herself, but it's pretty depressing that she would protect him to the extent she considers him a hero.
Good video, excellent points. Excellent outfit. Especially the bit about the effort that has to go into such an unequal relationship to counteract a power-imbalance was interesting.
the musician shown at 8:16 appears to be a young Tom Araya, lead singer of Slayer, and his inclusion at that moment detracts from the point being made slightly (imo) since Araya is actually a practicing Catholic and doesn't feel his music promotes satanism or anything like that
but I get what you meant since araya doesn't have that slightly queer look to him, he's doing the same masculine persona as the others like hetfield and mustaine who are more actually like that
also I wanted to flex on recognizing araya from that little clip, lol thank you for humoring me if you're reading this!
I read LHROOH a decade or two ago, but only relatively recently realised that it was "co"-authored by Neil Strauss..
something I found equally humourous and unsettling
@@ajasen @ajasen He meant it at the time as far as I know, but he had an unexpected redemption arc later on in life.. However the book seemed to be a sort of revered foundation of some online communities that are definitely unhealthy (and took the book as gospel ... with limited success, I suppose)
I don't agree with the concept of "abuse as default" as applies to fame and power. Truly good people don't have the desire to abuse and take advantage of others and naturally don't get turned on by the act of degrading others. Putting them into a scenario where they can behave like that without consequence won't suddenly make them want to do it and it won't change their underlying orientation. That is, it won't create an urge towards behaviors/attitudes that previously weren't desirable and won't erase disgust or aversion to behaviors/attitudes that was already present.
Thinking like this seems nuanced and fair minded but it actually helps the abuse continue because it grooms victims to believe anyone would abuse others if given the chance and makes them think the choices are between a person who abuses others because he's allowed and a person who acts nice because he's forced...while completely ignoring the existence of people who don't feel an inclination to abuse in the first place and cannot be made to.
Abe Lincoln once said, "To test a man's character, give him power."
all 👏🏽 women 👏🏽 are 👏🏽 lesbians 👏🏽
As a young teenager many decades ago, I read his book and then got into his music. Fast forward to the mid 2000s, I was at one of his shows when I was 18 and a roadie came into the crowd and gave me and my friend a guitar pick from the show and asked us if we'd like to go backstage. My friend was star eyed and before she could even respond, I gave a firm "NO" and watched her disintegrate before my eyes. I looked at her and said "Dude, you read his book too. He's a jerk, why would we go meet him?" She was bitter about it for years. The moral of the story is, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. The fact of the matter is, he wrote a book and whether the content of that book is true or not, that is who he WANTS the world to think he is. I don't believe in victim shaming, because no one deserves to be victimized, but there is an element of responsibility that people shrug. If I met someone and they literally had a book and mountains of media appearances, you're damn right I would look into it before any sort of dependence is formed. Less than halfway through his book, you'd nope your way out of rubbing elbows with him and if you had to, you'd keep him at arm's reach. Whoopi Goldberg said "When did we stop teaching our daughters not to go into rooms alone with men?" and to be honest, there's some validity there. When I was single, I stopped accepting "can I buy you a drink" offers from men because there was always a stipulation. Being offered to be flown to someone’s home you don't know form across the world, I'm sorry but there will be stipulations there. Nature's credit card has the worst interest rate. We need to hold abusers accountable and not enable them, but we also need to use these situations as examples of teachable moments to not be victimized in the first place. Is it right to go to North Korea and be detained? No. But anyone who goes there and expects different results is generally branded a moron. It's the same principle.
I get that speaking out against the majority especially in this social media ruled world is a somewhat daunting and challenging prospect since going along with the general consensus and blending in allows you to stay connected and means you’re safe and shielded from being picked off and targeted. As you get older however you’re priorities change and you have, through life experience, gained a wisdom that you never had when you were younger, even though when you were younger you thought you knew everything and your opinion was the only one that mattered. As I’ve aged I’ve grown less worried about what people think, I never believe or simply trust one point of view or opinion instead I investigate it, ask the tough questions, think critically and then if I disagree with that view Im not afraid to speak up about it. Yes you are absolutely right that we don’t know celebrities personally only what we are shown or what is revealed to us by the media and third or fourth person accounts. So if this is as you say a reason to look beyond that when it comes to celebrities what makes you think that this does not also apply to non celebrities? Yes abuse is a terrible thing and believe me I know because I had to endure it when I was a child so it really bothers that you would twist and turn the response Manson gave in that interview when asked about Me Too and the Weinstein allegations. You say his answer that those who were abused or assaulted should go to the police first and report it is kind of naive, so where do you suggest victims go then? To social media? How does that help victims and how does that ensure that they at least get a legitimate shot at getting justice and protection? By insinuating that the police aren’t really going to help a victim you are essentially ensuring that they won’t report it and that fails to help them as well as any future victims their abuser may go on to abuse. It’s absolutely soul destroying having to speak about the abuse you suffered because you are essentially having to relive every single detail of it and you are right back there being sexually assaulted all over again. So it is extremely important that when a victim is talking through what happened to them that they are able to do so in a safe, respectful and supportive environment which police, hospitals etc can and are equipped to provide. What’s also and equally important is ensuring these accusations are investigated properly, and then heard and prosecuted in a court of law. What should not happen is for these accusations to be made in a kind of social media kangaroo court, where judgements about a persons - celebrity or not - guilt are decided based on little evidence and only one point of view. THAT is not justice, it is merely accusation and defamation because a person is deemed innocent until proven otherwise. It is extremely damaging to a person who has been accused but not convicted and it is also just as damaging to the victim because such social media exposure could eventuate in not being able to get a fair trial, where their voices can be heard and where it matters the most- in a court of law. A court of law is where someones guilt or innocence is decided not on social media or mainstream media for that matter and until convicted they are innocent and have the right to be referred to as such. If the accusations are the truth and not one or a collective of people’s truth then it will be determined in a law court. Living within a democratic country these are the governments and systems that we as a people have elected to live within and be governed by and should you oppose or disagree with it then vote or try to change it. These kinds of crimes are terrible and understandably they evoke a profound reaction and strong emotions and opinions, so it’s really important to recognise and distinguish the difference between our emotional responses at what we are being told and what the facts and the tangible evidence shows to be true. To do that you must look at the whole situation, listen to both sides, research and think critically. Otherwise as a society we have categorically failed to evolve in any meaningful way and every time a finger is pointed or an accusation is made we may as well pick up our torches and pitchforks as they did in Salem, round up the accused and burn them solely on the word of their accusers, regardless of what their accusers true motivations for denouncing them are!! It’s a hard truth and I truly wish it wasn’t the case but yes unfortunately there are many people who do in fact lie about being abused or assaulted, especially in this post me too world because now more than ever a spotlight is being shone upon these issues and crimes and people’s voices are being heard. There are I’m afraid unscrupulous people who are seeking to capitalise off the pain and trauma that real victims are experiencing in an attempt to steal the spotlight, get the media and public attention, fame, revive their waning careers and profit from it. It’s truly awful but it is happening, especially now when it seems no evidence or proof is required to believe that such a crime actually took place and that simply saying it took place is all the truth that is required to be believed without a shadow of a doubt. There is also plenty of evidence in this case that does in fact show that the majority of these accusations are false or supported by falsified evidence, but of course that isn’t being acknowledged, disseminated or discussed. Personally I think that’s because people are always swayed by the emotion of a person and their story rather than what the tangible emotionless facts and evidence show to be true. In the end though a persons accusation, truth and story emotional or otherwise is just that, it’s the actual evidence and hard facts that will prove an accusation to be true or false. It’s important to make that distinction and to cease treating a person as if they are guilty until they have been found to be so. Destroying someone’s life, reputation and career based on an as yet unproven accusation is an equally awful and abusive thing to do to a person, as has been seen with the Depp / Heard case and it’s also possible that you could find yourself at the end of someone’s pointed finger of accusation.
As someone who did contact the police to make a statement about the child sexual abuse I suffered, I believed it to be an extremely important step to take, not just for myself but for any other victims of the same abuser. Before that I only ever discussed it with my closest friends, family and my psychiatrist, I was advised for my own sake not to use social media to reveal or discuss it. It really does trouble me that for all the good things the me too movement has done, that this eagerness to accept and believe such accusations as the truth even before it has been proven to be true will, in the not too distant future have repercussions that will effectively turn back the clock for those of us who have lived through terrible abuse. As for myself (and I’m sure many others may agree with me) you never ever forget the abuse you had to endure, you push it down or compartmentalise it just so you are able to survive and function day to day. You self medicate or self harm, in fact you do just about anything to make it go away and to stay numb so you don’t have to remember and be feeling it all the time day in day out 7 days a week for the rest of your life. You never completely forget or repress what happened to you, you just try every day to live with it as best you can and find comfort and joy when and where you can and being able to report it to police and share it with people who not only believe you but are equipped to provide help and support is an absolutely essential part of finding some kind of peace and resolution. When you exaggerate, make false accusations or make those accusations public via social media rather than reporting it firstly to the police, you not only destroy the lives of those who you accuse, but you also destroy the lives of people who have suffered and lived through abuse and violence because you’ve just made it that much harder for the rest of us to speak up and to be believed.
Whatever the truth about him, Manson is clearly an adept manipulator. The book excerpts were very telling, in which he gave away everything and nothing, bringing both 'sides' into his camp. I never liked the artifice and circus reality he contrived around himself, and clearly relished - the whole thing always seemed to be more about image than any other quality - something that has a genuinely dark edge now, in light of the revelations.
Hetfield and Araya may not have run rings around journalists in the same way that Manson did, and may even have been 'hyper masculine' to some degree, at the point in their careers from which those clips were taken...but at least they were also direct and straight forward (which doesn't equate to stupid, by the way). This is not to say that they (especially Araya, more than Hetfield) couldn't be dicks sometimes....but neither have been at the centre of rape/abuse allegations, at that time or since. There's perhaps an interesting juxtaposition there, wherein the aggressive and hyper masculine artists have been less exploitative of women than the gender bending artist with a cerebral rep.
I think this video helped a lot actually, I've been a bit torn up over Anti Flag of late, and being familiar with the story didn't help super much when it hit something that really was that important to me.
I see a lot of parallels between this case and the case of Till Lindemann, the lead singer of Rammstein. In 2023, there was a lady who came forward and claimed that Lindemann basically tried to pressure her into having sex with him DURING THE CONCERT, and whe she declined, he got really angry and yelled at her. After she brought up these allegations, there was a whole swath of anonymous allegations similar to (and ofter times worse than) hers. It was a whole thing in the german media, and of course, it ded dowm within a couple of months. It did, however, bring to light the whole system than was in place to coerce young women into having sex with Lindemann, and it did even result in certain brands dropping their partnerships with both Rammstein and Lindemann himself.
But of course, cancelling never really works. He's still a rock star adored by millions and the women were silenced. Unfortunately, nothing new.
Otep doesn’t get talked about a lot in metal, which I’m not sure why. But it is said she warned MANY women about how abusive Manson is.
She was blacklisted due to it. People love sucking up to powerful men, even in supposedly counter cultural spaces. People will warn each other about “hey don’t work with xyz,” but when that person finally confronts accusations they’ll defend them like they weren’t talking about them a few months earlier, all because they trick themselves into thinking being close with them will give them connections.
I will always be a massive mm fan, my favorite artist, but this video laid out really good unbiased discussion that I think is really important.
Part of the reason I love art and why I think human art vs AI will always be better, is the artist.
In this case the paradox of (marilyn)//(manson) holds so true with the paradox of the good and evil in everyone, to the extreme, that although I do not support any of the wrong doings of MM, I cant help but still appreciate the art on the level that it is.
That being said separating the person of Brian Warner with the art of Marilyn Manson is absolutely necessary if you want to indulge in such extremes.
edit: I also really appreciate specifically adorning a known mm look for this vid, which I interpreted as the difficulty you had to be so rightfully critical to us
Just read his book, it is so insightful on his inner state and personality, not a persona he has on stage. Unless everything in that book is untrue and false, which is pointless, he is that abusive type of person.
I was a massive Lostprophets fangirl, so while I didn’t have much of a personal relationship with MM’s music, I definitely recognised a lot of these feelings from processing what we saw happened with Watkins. It’s a relief in some ways that the thing I latched onto emotionally as a teenager didn’t really achieve a level of broad cultural significance that it couldn’t slip into obscurity - you’ll never hear Lostprophets on the radio now.
Manson and Jackson will continue to have stylistic influence for years to come, and that feels weird and wrong to me, part of the getting away with it. I don’t want to tell people that they shouldn’t be able to enjoy the music that they built their own connection to and experience of… equally I really haven’t made peace with it enough to bless that choice when people make it.
@@cat888 I'm sorry it's too painful for you to accept right now. All things in time. Good luck to you
I wasn't surprised. With how horribly he treated his band members. Think about it? Gingerfish, Twiggy, and John 5 are all gone. Two of them are with Rob. Also, never forget about Daisy Berkowitz.
12:00 sorry, ngl, I did laugh out loud when I read rule 15 (even though rule 25 was basically the same thing 😛)
I hate when the acusers ask his friends about it, as "what side are you on" like alice cooper, johhy dep, and charlie hunan
Oh wow, let me zoom in on that makeup 👀
You spoke very intelligently on almost everything involved here but I still have an issue with her maintaining the whole "i was a child" narrative. Yes she was 19 but a Hollywood actress/model who'd been in the business for years....not your typical 19 year old from Ohio or something. Just things to consider. Neither of them are innocent. I just feel the level that she has gone to...especially saying what she said about the Heart Shaped Glasses video shoot???!!!!!! That's when I knew for sure that there were credibility issues with her "stories" as i now call them. They truly are misrepresentations of the truth..
Manson was the first real show I went to just after Portrait...came out. I really liked that album and thought it was hilarious that I caught the last artist that parents were really worried about their kid listening to. Like people actually thought a rock singer could lure kids into a parent-murdering sex cult. I didn't like much of his subsequent stuff but did like that he seemed to be funny and well-spoken. I DID read his autobio when it was first published and it turned me off more because it was gross and he came across like a bully (mind you, I was 17 at the time when I thought this). My heart breaks for the women he abused and I guess, like you say, the one good lesson is that you don't have to disregard the positives you got from someone who turned out to be a monster.
you are very articulate and make some good points, but I do not agree with all.
great video
Yeah, the shock rock is a good cover for slipping real gross comments in