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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- A look at the raw sound of the Moog Sirin and Moog Minitaur. Do they sound the same?
0:00 Intro
0:21 Setup
1:33 Sawtooth
3:00 Square
4:27 Sub 37
5:22 Rogue
6:10 Patches
7:43 Back and forth panel settings
9:59 Hard Sync
10:40 Together
11:10 Conclusion
thisisgentry
Some actual music...
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This is a great service to the synth world. We salute you
thanks!
I mean looking at this 3 years later, I feel like grabbing a minitaur is for sure the way to go, with the Sirin almost being 3x the price of the minitaur. Great video!
Thanks for making this man, really appreciate it!
Really cool music man! Glad I discovered you
fantastic comparison, thank you for doing it so well
Wow, cool! Thanks for doing this comparison. Very helpful.
Erik Hawk glad to help!
Great and useful video Sir. You really are a Gent!! XX
Thank you!
This is a very instructive video. Thank you, I learned a lot and found what I was looking for.
In the BASS section the MINITAUR sounds a bit PHATTER and darker in the highs
Anyway both great!
Thanks for awesome comparison!
VolcaRock My pleasure
@@thisisgentry I really waited for exactly this video, because I wanted to know if the Sirin is as good in the Low End. Now I know that I will keep the Minitaur .
And maybe one day a second hand Sirin if one of the limited items finds the way to Europe ;-)
I'm 52 and I've been a synth geek since high school. I have the Minitaur and wondered about the Sirin. I'm more than a little surprised at the square wave comparison. Those extra overtones do add some weight to the Bull for sure. Thanks so much for this deep(no pun intended) sound comparison. If I didn't have a Minitaur then I'd be in on the Sirin. As I have enough analog gear that covers the sounds of the Sirin, then for now I'll pass, but for anyone that needs a full range synth, the Sirin certainly covers a lot of ground.
Dennis Ristow They do don’t they, surprised me too. Sure thing, happy to help!
loved this comparison, thanks!
Thank you! Very useful
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!!!
You're welcome!
Awesome comparison. Minotaur def has a little extra harmonic special sauce but is really splitting hairs. Would love to hear a comparison of the grandmother and the sirin.
Lance Drake thanks. Yeah totally! I feel like the Minitaur Oscs and the Grandmother semi modular architecture is the dream. The mixer on it sounds excellent. I don’t own one to compare though unfortunately
If you’re in la come over and film a test :)
@@MONSIEURLANCEDRAKEthat could be fun. what side of town are you on?
There is without a doubt more low frequency content with the Minitaur. The Sirin sounds somewhat High Pass Filtered.
Ok.
Two Sirins doing polymetric phasing, panned 50% L/R and a Taurus coming down the centre holding the bass would be just about the most fun thing in the world. Keystep pro could handle it all.
I do have a subwoofer. Sirin seems to have a low cut. That is perfect to let the Minitaur bass into a mix.
Master at work
Great comparison
Niclasrydhe thanks!
very good comparison
Markus Näslund thanks Markus
Wow, well for the price, i'd be on the minitaur over the siren, about half the price for just one octave difference of the square. everything else sounds the same. Easier to get higher tones from other equipment than the lows of the mini I thought the difference would be a lot larger. that's my take, thanks for the comparison.
Great! Thanks!
Should have copied the Sirin presets across to the Minotaur to compare. For the difference in price, I would probably pick the Minotaur. Thanks for video. Cheers from Australia
Very interesting. The unfiltered Sirin square has a sound that reminds me a lot of a Nintendo in a good way.
Christopher Venter Which Nintendo?
@@thisisgentry The NES. Although, I believe that used a digital square.
Haha cool. Those old 8bit sounds are fun. Just found this for reference - th-cam.com/video/gKXGDuKrCfA/w-d-xo.html@@christopherventer6391
Good stuff!
Square comparison was surprising. Minitaur square wave sounds a tiny bit thicker in the low end.
Polychain them, make them a single paraphonic synth!
cubis Yeah, I was surprised as well. The Minitaur square definitely has more growl/richness to it, especially down low, not that it’s stopping me selling it now I have the Sirin!
Never done the polychaining thing, I should try! Especially with my Sub 37 as well
The square sounds good because the pulse width is not centered on the Minitaur (I think you can do that on the Sirin)
Thank you so much for this comparison! I was very curious about this. I really love the minitaur square wave, so yeah, it does matter to me ;) But overall, for most patches I agree it probably won't make much of a difference. I would have liked some more comparisons on patches using the square wave. Maybe one day I'll come across a used Sirin... can't justify the price.
I'm glad you found it useful. Yeah, that Minitaur square wave is pretty special!
Miniataur sounds better if you ask me
I agree. Such a shame it stops at middle C
@@thisisgentry I agree as well. The note ceiling is a result of the lower frequency/more resolution components from what info I've been able to find. That's why the low end on the Minitaur has more overtones.
Imagine the resolution of tuning an oscillator across 88 notes with a full resolution of whatever, call it 96k. Now for comparison, cut the note range approximately in half but keep the same amount of available resolution squeezed into half the notes. You now have twice the resolution for half the keyboard range, or theoretically twice the bass resolution on the same note value of a Minimoog. Basically that's why even a Minimoog tuned the same as a Taurus 1 doesn't have quite the same low end. I can't remember all the electronic geek specifics but that's how I understood the explanation of the guy who's Taurus 1 pedals were used to help design the Taurus 3 (and identical supposedly) Minitaur electronics.
It is the closest I'll ever get, without winning the Lotto or something, to having the sound of the original Taurus 1 pedals. That's worth it for me. If you want, crave, need THAT bass sound, then the Minitaur is the choice IMHO.
@@drsamurai009 I'm playing with a new Sirin right now, but I think I might send it back for the Minitaur. I've read that the difference is due to the Minituar not having a pure square wave, but instead it's got some triangle throw in, whereas the Sirin is pure square. Not an expert at that level but it sounds about right. The Sirin is nice, but the role of this synth is 95% bass, and I can hear quite a bit of difference between the two. Maybe I'll get a Sub Phatty, but the form factor here is amazing. @GENTRY Thank you SO much for doing this, unbelievably helpful!
@@russcontact I'd say it has some sawtooth. A triangle wave has the exact same harmonics as a square wave (odd-numbered harmonics only), but they roll off faster. On the GENTRY's computer screen, you can see that the Minitaur's square wave contains higher levels of the even-numbered harmonics that only the sawtooth wave is supposed to have.
It's a tough call - the Sirin's square wave is truer, and offers a greater difference in sound from the sawtooth wave, but the Minitaur's square wave, if you ignore what a square wave is "supposed" to be, just sounds so good. Either way, they both sound better than the Sub series. It's a shame the VCOs are so feature-poor.
@@thisisgentry Not such a limit with Sirin?
It seems Minitaur square is (or was?) not centered. Minilogue is closer to Sirin (I compared it listening to the video).
Indeed... PW sounds not centered
it sounds like 4pole filter in minitaur and 3pole filter in sirin.
4pole filter with dark tone and puncher lowend ,3pole filter more open fizzy highend and flatter lowend.
3pole filer lose less lowend when rise resonance .
all of these traits very similar to my voyager rme (when switch between poles)
Hey can you PM me the Minitaur factory presets so that I use them with my Sirin? Awesome video! Thanks
can't see any option to message you
Since I have a Minitar and Sub37; don’t need this.... and I’m bummed haha...thanks for the comparison effort
Haha, no problem!
Had the sub37, sub phatty & Minitaur. Just kept the minitaur.
do you find they are a complimentary pair? I have a sub37 but am thinking about another moog..
How can minitaur and sirin setup in polychain?...Just have Midi IN, and the editor just has one option to setup midi in and out,...could you explain it, please?....thank you.
Oh...another question, If I open a sirin editor and configure It Midi out to the minitaur Midi port ) when I change the preset into the editor , minitaur doesn’t change the sound )
To poly chain them I'd suggest : A Using a laptop for USB to each B : Getting a Kenton or Midi solutions midi thru box, so you have multiple outputs from one midi source.
I'm not sure if it's possible to use the Sirin editor with the Minitaur. Is there a reason you're not using the dedicated editor?
Great review.
imaxximus cheers!
Back at you. I just bought one for my son. I have a voyager and sub37 and Taurus 3 and a Minotaur and thought this would be perfect for him. Really enjoyed your comparison. About to start checking out your other vids.
imaxximus ah nice! He’ll love it. Thanks, I don’t have much stuff on TH-cam atm, but will be uploading more soon!
GENTRY thought that sub37 demo was great! I’ll keep an eye out for others as you post. Thanks so much. Play hard!
Hey listening with decent monitors and can already hear the difference in thickness / overtones coming from the minotaur.
But lol. 11:09 Not the first time she's heard that..
You pay more for the Sirin, but the Minitaur does the same for less ;-) Great Video!
Does the Sirin come with it's OWN presets that can then be 'back-loaded' into the minitaur?
Yes, the Sirin comes with its own presets. Haven't tried loading then into the Minitaur, but don't see why it wouldn't work
Excellent - I have a miniaur, so I'll look t=for the sirin presets and see if I can load them.
cheers @@thisisgentry
Curious to learn how this turns out
did tha followup video ever happened?
Hey mate! Do the sirin presets/patches work also on minitaur?
ItaloDisco4U don’t see why not. I don’t have the minitaur anymore to check though
@@thisisgentry No problem, mate! Thanks for replying!
I'm more interested in that midi keyboard your using. What is that?
MP MI it’s an old Korg microKONTROL (37 notes). They’re discontinued, but I’m sure you can find a used one for cheap
@@thisisgentry thank you for the quick reply
i saw your video when it first came out and still havent decided between this two. Minitaur square for bass is fatter and more powerfull IMO, but the sirin is angelical in the highs.
did you finally sell the minitaur? do you miss it? can the sirin manage bass as good as the mini?
Jose Haya sold the minitaur. Don’t miss it. If you need high notes, get the Sirin, if you need dont, get the minitaur. Hope that helps
@@thisisgentry yes, thats what everybody tells me. i love both minitaur low end and sirin highs.
I have a monologue and my brother owns a sub 37, that i have access to. what would you get?
Jose Haya If you have access to a Sub 37, year minitaur would be my choice. Sirin and Sub37 are really quite similar to my ears. That’s just the tone side of things though. I got the Sirin mainly because of the tiny footprint, ideal for travelling etc
@@thisisgentry Did you sell the Minitaur because you already had a Sirin? or just no use
Huh. Taurus seem to sound pretty much fatter. Does it have all the same midi and control capabilities?
Yeah
The Minitaur in this Video isn't like my own. Its square wave is really non centered and the comparison is imho just valid for those 2 units. My Minitaur sounds just like... the Sirin in this video. Be careful if you really want to get this square wave sound, you don't need a minitaur, but this Minitaur, or a unit that would have the exact same calibration of this unit. I think it will be easier to get that sound from another synth that can set pulse width. I got very good results with the Nord G2 to imitate either my Minitaur Square, and the one of the video. I had to set ladder filter cutoff at 13.4 khz and shape of the square to 53% to get something close to the Minitaur in this video, and 50% for my Minitaur.
Are they internally different or just different firmware? Say: can a Minotaur be flashed to a sirin?
Not to my knowledge, I think the insides are different (although I’m no engineer!)
Pretty much the same, but with one big difference: the Sirin oscillators are modified at the hardware level. No firmware flashing possible. I would assume that they probably modified the other components slightly to work with the new oscillators.
@@cubis do we not think the whole signal path is a bit different? The MInituar the whole concept is its a bass synth, and it has proven it does that role as well as anything, at least a little bit better then other Moog products, which are already legendary for bass duties. I'd have to imagine theres all sorts of calibration differences, not just oscillator and range differences
@@marvinkmooneyoz No, I agree. That's what I was trying to get at: biggest difference is the oscillators but the other components in this machine would probably have been adjusted to accommodate the new oscs. Granted that, though, the firmware and feature set are so similar that I would imagine the signal paths and basic architecture are very similar.
A real original Taurus was a HZ/V Oscillator not a V/Oct.... The exponential converter is often what makes many vintage Moogs unstable.....The Taurus never really had the same reputation as a Minimoog, for instance, for drifting out of tune.
I don't know what Moog did on the Taurus 3 and Minitaur in regards to the original, but linear CV standards usually don't have the range of exponential inputs....
Think of it thusly....
Linear input CV Hz/V, need an exponential voltage to be generated by the keyboard itself... The keyboard being a voltage divider...gets very strange resistor values to create an exponential scaling.... For every octave, the voltage will have to double, which limits the range....You hit 5V pretty quickly with an exponential keyboard..
An exponential input....V/Oct converts linear keyboard voltages into exponential scaling by the use of a differential amplifier. One side of the amp is grounded, the other takes the CV in....The amplified difference of ground and the CV is the converted voltage that drives the oscillators. The keyboard becomes much simpler as the resistor values between each key remain the same. If the CV standard is 0-5V....and you have V/oct, you have 5 octaves of control range....which is perfect for the 61 key controllers Moog made for the early modular systems.
However, the mechanics don't matter so much anymore....In a digital oscillator control system....in either HZ/V or V/Oct, a DAC is going to generate a series of mapped out voltages across the voltage range of the DAC to create the CV...While many analog systems would likely tolerate voltages exceeding 5V, many DACs probably will not, which even limits the HZ/V even more.
@GENTRY thanks for this. I was doing my own comparison last night between the two, loading the same patch onto each of them. I heard absolutely no difference at all (once you start tweaking and modulating the OSCs), but the difference in raw square you demo here is irrefutable. Definitely keeping the Sirin, not sure if I'll keep the Minitaur. Experimenting right now with polychaining the two for duophonic play. But I don't see them replacing my Sub 37 either, so it might be difficult to justify keeping everything.
I hear ya man. I'm selling my Minitaur as i can't justify having both. I was messing around putting the Sirin through the Sub 37 yesterday. It certainly feels more alive, but you're right, it can't replace all the awesome stuff you can do with the Sub 37
@@thisisgentry I have a Sub37 and have been thinking about pairing it with another analog mono. Been thinking about Moog Grandmother, Siren, or Behringer Model D. Any suggestion what would most compliment the sub37 of these choices?
@@shawnsaul7759 Do need midi and patch memory? If you don't, the Grandmother is really fun, and can do things the Sub 37 can't. All of those you suggested have a similar overall flavour, have you also considered the MS20 or Odyssey?
@@thisisgentry what can the GM do that the 37 cant? Im aware the audio rate modulation ont he GM is much better
@@marvinkmooneyoz Spring Reverb | High Pass Filter | Semi-Modular. The semi-modular nature of the GM means you can really switch things up (and get away from the "standard" OSC->MIXER->FILTER type routing). Also it's great if you have other modular gear. I guess no patches means you play / approach in a different way as well. That's my take at least
I’m at least two years after the fact posting a comment to this video. You don’t owe me anything, just a request. As silly as this sounds, is there a chance for a Sirin vs Typhon match up? I have both and have been playing around… It feels like the Typhon can do as much/more than the Sirin (and costs 33% of what the Sirin costs used). Problem is, I don’t have the eqpt to PROVE it to my satisfaction. If you can’t, no problem… Besides, I’ll likely just disagree with you in comments after asking you to do it ;)
Really well done recording for this test by the way. And I hope you didn’t sell those yet. Get the Sub Phatty. Screw that piddly sirin. Variable waveshape oscillators, repeatable LFO’s, more control’s, SELECTABLE 4-pole filter. 24db,16db,12db, and my acid fav 6db cutoff. What are you doing man?! 🙀
I wouldn’t think they’d sound much different, though the Sirin has the added higher octaves, but?
I just think it’s funny anyone is thinking of buying it when you can get a Sub Phatty used on ebay for about the same price or less.
A whole lot more synth and features for the price. Only had to pay 555.00 to get mine back.
And if your someone who would prefer a smaller footprint on your desk, I took care of that for mine. Cut the keys right off.
Thanks, and yeah, I hear you man. I used to own a Sub Phatty. It's a great synth. For my purposes though (travelling super light), the Sirin is perfect. The form factor is just right. I have Sub 37 if i need more controls / options.
GENTRY Yeah, it is a lot more compact. I was away from my phone when you used the Sub 37 pulse wave so I didn’t see you had it. But having that, I definately see why you would go w/ the sirin for performances.
i have been looking for someone to make this video. thank you very much. really well done. i was deciding between this two, cand make my mind still. the richness in the minitarus low end with the square osc is wonderull....but the range of the sirin,....what to do
Thanks. I guess it comes down to what you're gonna mainly use it for? If it's just bass = Minitaur, no question (especially as you can get one pretty cheap second hand). BUT for playing anything above C4, then there's nothing else quite like the Sirin out there IMHO. At least not with that Moog tone AND full midi implementation / patch memory. Hope that helps?!
I ordered a Sirin because they're limited. Really want a Minitaur also, but I figured those would be easier to come by later. Then when I do, I'll be polychaining them!
I think the square sounds good because Pulse Width is not centered on the Minitaur
When Moog puts out a limited edition synth, you buy it right away. Lesson learned.
Over here in Europe, dealers offer the Sirin for about €800, while the Minitaur is about 420. Say half the price.
Frits van Zanten Yeah it’s a lot more, but it makes sense when you consider that the Sirin has roughly double the note range of the Minitaur, and it’s (currently) limited to 2,500 units worldwide. That said, if only using it for bass, the Minitaur is a no brainier. I still think it’s the best sounding modern Moog.
@@thisisgentry Thx. I'll have to wait for B-version, then ;-)
its because of the tax rates trump is carging over export the same thing is happening from product from usa now, the Minitaur is only sold out of stock and is not charge because there imported before
@@Researchmisinfomation ah, that's good to know
@@thisisgentry Pittsburgh microvolt
Lol at the captions @ 6:38
haha just turned them on to see this!
No no no don't no know don't no
@@swillm3ister No need to write lyrics any more, just upload the tune to TH-cam and see what it comes up with :)
What midi controller is that??
The only thing i know is that the sirin doesn sound as the price tag over the minitaur.
No pulse width modulation
Antonio229 no, not on either unit
Both osc to square and soft sync on. This makes the pitch of the 2nd osc to become the pw modulator.
OK. Sirin or Slim Phatty?
Depends if you want the added features of the Slim Phatty or not (filter overdrive etc). Pure tone, i'd go for the Sirin. Also the Slim Phatty takes a while to warm up (before it stays in tune)
Did you ever make that follow up video?
I didn’t. What would you like to see/hear?
@@thisisgentry It would be great to see the Minituar and Siren go head to head in a loop/beat, or track, where they are both responsible to play the same bassline and you switch between the two (to give people a feel for the subtle character differences between the synths) Then later showcase the limitation of the Minitaur note range as well as where the Sirin continues, with a lead part added to the mix.
@@djleapwarren2716 ah wish I could. Unfortunately I’ve sold the Minitaur so only have the Sirin
@@thisisgentry All good. There is a subtle difference but in a mix I think it would be difficult to tell them apart. Was the extended range the deciding factor for you?
@@djleapwarren2716 Yeah it was. So much more useful as a compact solution having the extra octaves
minitaur has more ooomppphhh!
they both should complement each other
T.I.N Mateus exactly
I had a minitaur. And I can honeslty say theres no real difference. I think newer producers bought the sirin. and old school producers bought the minitaur
the minitaur sounds significantly fatter to me
Minitaur better bass!
Minitaur sounds fatter. Sirin looks nice.
BARELY any difference. A con by any other name. Shame on you, Moog!
Great! Thanks!
Artur Tadevosyan happy to help!