This got to show the importance of alignment. Prebreakers definitely makes a difference, I once swapped on the EK43. The old that was a feeder and didn’t do much of breaking and then to a Titus, this made a rather noticeable improvement on the quality of the coffee. I know Frank of Titus had a focus on this for some years. And even Mahlkönig went from feeder to prebreaker. I personally think Timemore missed out on this, as they could have made a prebreaker rather then just a feeder in their grinders I’m very convinced it would have improved on especially the multipurpose burrs. Hopefully this will come in some later versions. The thing about price being equal. Once you toss third part in the other, do depend on the country that you live in. Where I live the last batch would have been around €1600 the Niche Duo with SSP would be around €1285 and DF83 + SSP €1055. However once it get in full production I’ll bet on it ends near the €1900 of P64 & Orbit with SSP, making thirdpart options definitely a cheaper option. For North Americans yes it definitely isn’t worth it.
@@Zirassi if you noticed I wrote in Euros and I specifically mentioned my location, this typically means that poster include all other expenses, meaning shipping, import duties, handling fee and VAT. €1900 with a resale price of $1400 would not really be all thar far off as shipping of such heavy items is typically an expensive affair, typically around $150-200. In lower VAT countries like Germany it might get €100-200 below that. What ever price is in US is those rather irrelevant. There reasons why p64 is also around the €1800-1900 imported, and why the Orbit is sold in Europe at a similar amount, a grinder also around $1400 in the US. You can only use street prices in US if you live in the US, many people dos not. This means this grinders will stop being all that affordable. Why you don’t really see tons of these grinders here, because after all is done prices is easily added with 30% on top! So Europeans should expect it to end around €1800-1900 depending on location and what burrs they choose it to come stock with. This makes it a noticeable step up in price comparison to DF83 and Niche Duo with SSP burrs.
@@mikni4069 Oh when you said "last batch" did you mean the launch edition grinders that went for 1100 with SSP burrs? I thought you meant the most recent 3rd batch of orders they took, which IIRC were priced at $1399. Thus, I thought you were implying that Zerno were going to raise their prices further. If you say $1399 before options and shipping means 1900 euros for you, I believe you. This was simply a misunderstanding it appears.
Beans are September Coffee Subscription and Atlas Subscription. Fill in Water Ave. I love how the 64mm are described as Small Burrs, vs 1 year ago. I had your DF64E ,after months of use, there is very little static and definitely better shots. I added a Plug-in Negative Ion Air Purifier. There is now almost no coffee "mess" outside the doser.
Thank you for this excellent review. I just received the Sculptor 078 to replace my Niche Zero, much as I love the Niche, I only drink pour-over! Also, looking forward to some nice coffees from September! Keep up the good work on all fronts, we coffee hobbyists (aka Wierd Coffee Persons) appreciate what you do.
Well-presented, well edited, great delivery, and great detail as well as differentiating espresso vs filter (I only care about espresso so this helps alot!) subbed!
Thanks for the great review, well done! To my understanding the difference between the DF83 v1 and v2 was only the addition of a plasma generator to the latter. You mentioned tighter tolerances as a v2 improvement. It would be interesting to learn more about this.
I haven't heard of tolerances being improved on the DF83 v2, but it's possible. I believe they changed the declumper, included metal cup, as well for the v2 which is nice, but I'm enjoying my V1 DF83, I did mod the declumper and with it more opened up I actually think it may be one of my neatest grinders. It grinds fast and comes out in a neat pile mostly without as much static as my other grinders for some reason!
Pulling a shot with my need zero and Breville Bambino plus so I'm solidly in the mid / entry level class but still appreciate the stuff. Your straightway take actually helped remind me that I'm already so far above everything entry level by comparing things to a Niche Zero and there's always gong to be something else coming out... so I went for it. Thanks
Great review. 078s, I have one on order. I am looking forward to aftermarket burrs when they are ready, with alignment I'm sure it will be the best bang for buck.
Great video, thanks Kyle! And I'm currently drinking a coffee from Ethiopia's Worka Wuri, with a very special processing method - Anaerobic Natural, with strawberries (!) in the fermentation barrel, roasted by Nahat.
Thank you for testing the new SSP 83mm MPs! I have been waiting to hear about how they do in the DF83 and Niche Duo since they were released. It's hard not to feel vindicated about my grinder purchasing choices now- my generation 2 Zerno should be arriving in a few weeks! One small correction- the version of the grinder that's about to ship with blind burrs, ionizer, etc. is still just called the Zerno Z1, not the Z2 (that will probably be the big Zerno- which Vel wants to make compatible with 80mm and 83mm burrs!!!). It's actually the 100 Zernos from the first run (lacking the new features) that got the alternate naming- they are technically called "Zerno Z1 Launch Edition." When you review the Generation 2 Zerno, I would love to see you try Espresso from both the SSP 64mm Brew burrs and the Ode Gen 2 burrs. The Zerno will do espresso with both, and I'd love to get your opinion on it (especially since I ordered my Zerno with Blind Brew burrs for Espresso). If feasible, it would also be cool to hear about how the Gorilla Gear burrs compare (one Zerno owner on reddit told me they make shots quite similar to the Ode Gen 2 actually).
I use the DF 64 with Titanium Burrs (3rd or 4th version) and I agree the espressos taste great at least for me. The price I paid was only 340 US in Indonesia. Guess for that price its great value and hard to beat.
It would be awesome if, some day, you get to visit a coffee farm and make in-depth videos of their processes as well as your experiences locally. There are currently not enough of those types of content in English on TH-cam.
Thinking of buying myself a machine and grinder to start my coffee journey. Have watched your videos and think I've got between £1500 - £2000 to spend. I'm focused on espresso, and don't see my doing pour over or anything else, but maybe I just don't know enough yet. Can I do better than a Safe Dual boiler and a niche zero? Is there a grinder better than the zero yet for espresso?
Hey Kyle, this may not be really related (but I think I'm speaking for many people), but I'm curious how the 078s compares with the Lagom mini? Considering that the Lagom mini was your top pick for multi-purpose grinders just 6 months ago
Thank you Kyle! 🙏 "The" video/upload I've been needing. I appreciate the time and effort you put into making these! I may have to watch it a few more times before making my final decision! I roast my own beans on a sample roaster. Currently roasting El Salvador Cerro Las Ranas Honey Processed, light to medium! Cheers! ☕
Would love to see a super premium grinder showdown between things like the P100, Monolith Flat Max, EG-1, etc to see if how the updates to them over the years have impacted them if at all. Also just to see your thoughts on them as you were the first person I found when I started my coffee journey
Thank you for making a cool video, Kyle! I'm currently using Forte BG and Mignon Specialita, but I'd like to wait until next year and upgrade them to 078 or 078s! (It would be best if we could solve the problem of some beans stagnating in the hopper.)
Hi Kyle, nice video but I focused mainly on the 078s tbh :). How about seasoning burrs with rice? I'm really looking forward to receiving the grinder and how well it will do against my Eureka E75 to replace it. I find the Eureka noisy and it has too much retention for the amount of coffee I drink on a day.
I've put some minute rice (parboiled / quick cook) through a few grinders, but not sure if it's really dense enough to do much for seasoning. I talked to one guy who swore by it though! I wouldn't do regular hard uncooked rice, just quick cook type.
Thanks for the review. Currently using eureka magnifico and it’s nice- especially the fact the workflow is so easy unlike the df83. My original grinder was a DF83 and it broke, so I bought the magnifico in the interim. I bought the niche duo and it’s literally on its way. I had to pay $77.80 import duty in USA. Despite the import duty, I’m looking forward to getting it. If this isn’t up to par as grinder- I’ll probably look at the Lagom 100 or Weber eg1 next. I’m trying not to spend thousands. But I suspect I’ll end up not being happy until I get a pricy model.
Just got my 078s in and I have to turn the speed down to nearly the lowest possible to get espresso to work. What speed do you have your motor running?
Congratulations Kyle - because this was a really well done review of grinders in the price range that many coffee nerds are willing to pay and are interested in - and you were able to be thorough yet concise at the same time which is hard to do. Great job.
Thank you Kyle! I would love to see how these stack up in a blind taste test versus some of the premium but significantly cheaper hand grinders (Commadante, 1zpresso). Feels like reviews tend to avoid directly comparing electric to hand grinders but price, especially these days, is not something to totally ignore especially if an X-pro at 130 USD could match or be like 90% the quality of these 600-1 grand grinders.
Let me guess, you want to hear that your cheap hand grinder gives you similar results to something expensive and electric, right? lol It probably does.
@@bluemystic7501 I backed the 064s and have the VS3. But it would be awesome to be able to recommend hand grinders to friends and family instead of the usual reddit / youtube content that pretends that 400 dollars is “budget friendly” for all people. Why the aggression? You good?
here are some information if you curious as i used EK43 - the 3 grand usd - top of food chain flat burr grinder comandante (300ish usd) and Q2 7 axis version (99usd), similar bur with x-pro, but with smaller size if u used them for filter at same grind size, all of them have very similar complexity, clarity, and aroma, i can said, its 99% similar, even pro wont be able to know which is which on blind cup if u use them for espresso.... well its another story and zp6... well... its topple all of above
Great review! How would you compare the taste and texture of espresso between the Niche Duo and the DF83 in stock form - Mazzer burrs vs ItalMil burrs - 530 rpms vs 1400 rpms. Look forward to your response. Thanks.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FIORENZATO ALLGROUND? th-cam.com/video/3HIipRvWqx0/w-d-xo.html. Now this is a grinder. The portafilter holder, has a built in scale, and you can click a switch to pull the the burrs out to clean. No unscrewing parts.
Can we just step aside and think about the return on investment on these things. It's very easy to contract upgraditus and go on a shopping spree. I bet the subtle differences between the burr sets are pretty minor for 99% of us coffee nerds. This explosion on the grinder market, driven by chinese manufacturers and the fact that coffee nerds have too much disposable income + youtubers feeding into it in order to create content is one hell of a combo. Let's just...stay sane guys
💯 agree. Too much content in conjunction with too much products. I’m fairly confident most home coffee nerds won’t be able to notice that much of a difference between burr sets to grinders. Six in one, half a dozen in the other.
Great summary. I forget if I mentioned this earlier but on my original V1 DF83 I have modded the declumper to open it up and get coffee to flow out easier, because the burrs are so quick to grind, I think the declumper held coffee back and reground coffee leading to more fines. I noticed more clarity but less body after opening it up more, but also a lot less retention and I don't usually bother even using the bellows.
Can't wait for my 078 and 078s to come in especially after this video! The fact that the 078 is on your September table for roast profile speaks volumes to its taste and how well I will enjoy it being a huge purchaser of your coffee :)
Thanks Kyle, still waiting on my 078s (launch day price) I hope it will be here before winter :) Granted there are some quirks with the sculptor worklfow, I did it mostly for the looks, as the zerno is oyt of my budget. And any remaining budget will be spend on beans and maybe a new espresso machine in the future :)
I'm getting the 78S as well. I feel like people are a little down on it because of sewing machine comparisons, but since I personally think it looks like a hair dryer, I'm much happier with it... 😂
14:00 For Timemore078s I don't think any reviewers really made it seem like a big deal about the espresso grind adjustment range, but a lot of people seemed really concerned that it was too small for espresso dialing in initially. I think somewhere on Facebook or something, someone from Timemore mentioned that the 078s has much smaller tics, where each small tic point represented like 5microns of burr movement (smaller than a red blood cell). However on the filter oriented 078 body the movement is a little larger like 15 microns I believe (I forget the details). So when all the reviewers were mentioning dialing in range for espresso wasn't that big, but using 078s burrs in a 078 body, I'm like no Duh, it's not the 'real' grinder. It's very close / similar I'm sure but that's one thing they're tweaking so it's more espresso oriented, which makes sense. I'm hoping I can swap in the 078 burrs into the 078s body eventually without any issues, or SSP will make some Weber Core or Ultra style burrs in 78mm size for it! (I'm the guy that told you to lend a 078 to Hansung from SSP for getting the measurements needed and testing!).
Yes that is true. However my main concern with the 078s is channeling on espresso. Charlie and Our Coffee Shelter mentioned that even after they had put in many KGs they are still facing channeling. It may be due to the burs being too sharp, I am not sure. But it is a valid issue.
@@jamousg it worked better at lower R.P.M. I believe for him which is weird but at least there's that until someone else makes better burrs or they get seasoned. No other reviews mentioned it so might be a one off case and something was wrong with his grinder (which isn't a good sign either!) or it just needed more seasoning as Kyle discovered. But if there's such a difference pre and post seasoning manufacturers. Really need to start pre seasoning their burrs. Gorilla gear does this with their burrs.
Really happy with this great review!! I'm doubting between the DF83, the DF64V and the Timemore 078S. I usually make espresso with my LaPavoni Professional but also filter now and then in a Moccamaster. Also I use V60 but I use a hand grinder for that. I buy freshly roasted beans (medium roasted, 100% Arabica Pulped Natural) @Kyle: How do you see the DF64V with DLC burrs or evt. Lab Sweet compared with the 078S or DF83?
All good choices. We went from having like no good single dose low retention grinders for home espresso to having WAY TOO many options and more coming out everyday it seems! :D I think we have the Niche Zero and DF64 series grinders to thank for that.
I don't understand all these reviews on the Timemore when you can't seem to get it. I go to the kickstarter page for the Sculptor and it is completely IMPOSSIBLE to sort out. There doesn't appear to be any way too actually order the 078. Can anyone enlighten me on this process.
I just returned a df64 gen 2. I had a lot of problems with mine. I think it was just defective. However, I'm now back looking for a grinder. I want one that can do filter and espresso decently.
Thanks for all your reviews Kyle! You helped me pull the trigger on the Eureka Oro Mignon then eventually returning that and buying the Weber Workshops Key! I love it! I roast my own coffee on a San Fransiscan SF-1. I get my green beans from my local roaster Rocabilly Roasting Company here in Kennewick, WA.
My wife accidentally broke our 1zpresso K ultra. To be fair to her it was having some troubles switching sizes but she switched sizes mid grind and it just locked up. All said and done the threading was stripped. I put down on the Time More Sculptor 078S and I’ve been watching every review to make sure it was a good investment. She likes pour over in a porous ceramic filter, I like black straight espresso or lungo shots. Thank you for your comparisons, I feel better about my choice. I don’t think I’ll ever find a perfect multi-purpose grinder. But I’ll settle for getting good enough for both of us.
Hey Kyle, since you have both the 078 and 078s, I think one thing to put to rest is whether both models have the same grind adjustment range? There's been people assuming the 078s is more granular but no one ever gave a clear answer. I'd assume if you swapped the burr sets between the two, they should work the same?
I saw someone posted something saying the adjustment is more precise (smaller movement of the burrs) for the espresso oriented grinders (078s and 064s). Each fine tic is only 5 micron movement. I believe that is accurate. Earlier reviews they were using 078 body (with 078s burrs) which I believe has larger burr movement per tic mark.
I‘m in the process of finally upgrading my home coffee set up from a Nespresso machine to the real deal, and have found your comparison and review videos to be incredibly valuable. I have learned so much about the different features to look for, and now have a better idea what I want and how much I will need to spend. So, thank you! To answer your question, I would undoubtedly buy the Niche if I didn’t have to pay import tax on it (19% here in Germany). Which means that I’m currently leaning towards the DF64 or 83.
hey, hast du dich schon für eine Mühle entschieden? Bin kurz davor mir die 83v2 zu holen. Will damit Espresso und Café Creme mit sämtlichen Röstgraden versuchen. Hast du da vllt schon Erfahrungen machen können, ob das gut funktioniert? Liebe Grüße aus Nürnberg
Perfect timing! Swapping my entire coffee bar and starting with Fellow Stagg kettle, replacing Vario W grinder. Drinking Blanchards Coffee Richmond VA Kenyan Kiri AA. Fantastic local roaster. Can’t wait to try September!
8:08 Zerno Z1 is a bit confusing, because Vel is making revisions on them with each batch it seems, I believe it's still the Z1, just Z1 v2 maybe? :D People are already telling him to make a successor to the Zerno z1 with 80mm burrs and it seems like something he might be into, but way down the line. Definitely needs to work on getting the Z1's out first. So far I think it's just the initial batch of like 100 grinders out, and another 250 I think being shipped out soon, I'll be getting one of those. The new Augers have 3 different feed rates, slow, medium and fast (Stock ones being shipped out with the next batch of grinders are the mediums), I think the original one people were saying fed too fast, and you get better results slowing it down. A lot of people already do this by slowly pouring their coffee in their single dose grinders instead of just dumping it all at once. It's supposed to improve grind consistency (should increase flavour clarity, possibly reduce body though). Zerno actually comes with a more traditional Mazzer burr, but for BLIND SSP burrs it's only $100 USD extra. (Z1 v2 now can take blind, no screw hole, or standard 64mm burrs! Probably doesn't make much of a difference but it's cool).
Fantastic showdown Kyle! As a 078s backer, I feel like that a smart decision. I have a question around aftermarket 78mm burrs. Neither SSP MP nor HU are not available in the 78mm size. Do you have any insites whether it may change in the future? Would you replace the stock burrs set in the 078s?
I believe SSP WILL make burrs for the 78mm grinders, not sure they can do better for filter, but if you're looking for a higher clarity espresso burr or maybe lab sweet balanced type burr I think those might be worth considering. People seem to give the 078s burrs mixed reviews, they sound alright after some seasoning maybe. But like everything it really depends what you're comparing it with.
I in my 3d month of DF83 v2 from Joe Kolb’s espresso outlet. It’s been exceptional. Never more than .2 mg. Usually 0.1 to 0 retention. This has been its performance out of the box. I’m strictly espresso and using it stock. Could not be happier!
Thanks for this, I ended up buying the 78s due to light roasts being so annoying to grind with my JX-Pro so it's good to see that it was a good choice for that. Know it's been a while since you've reviewed it but do you reckon it's a noticeable jump from the JX-Pro to the 78s for espresso taste?
33:15 Damn, too late, I have 1 of these grinders and 2 others coming, but now I also want the 078 Burrs :D I'm curious how the 83mm Cast burrs compare with the other burrs when you get them later.
There seems to be a debate among experts whether seasoning burrs actually does anything. If the 078s produces uneven grind distribution out of the box, why wasnt this caught and fixed during Timemore's "extensive" testing? Two reviewers noted this channeling and sputtering and it seems unacceptable at this price point. And will running a few pounds of coffee thru it "dull" the hardened steel blades enough to make a difference?!? th-cam.com/video/-ut_nOrt53E/w-d-xo.html
First off, the Sprometheus video is one specific burrset, he doesn't say it applies to all burrs. And the video does show a difference big enough to need to change the grind setting to accommodate the unseasoned burrs for espresso. You did watch the video, right? Also, my understanding is that seasoning isn't to dull the burrs, but that it removes machining marks and metal burrs and the like from the burrs. There have been laser analyzed studies of grinds that show that there is a difference pre and post seasoning that I have seen Jonathan Gagne mention.
2:38 The Timemore's flat / turbo burrs are supposed to be designed or made by "GrindLabs" I believe, but I think people suspect that's just what they're calling their burr division maybe in order to seem like they used a more experienced burr making company for these burrs :D
Ive pre-ordered the 078s as I do 90% espresso and then do filter, and aeropress sometimes... also the decent DE-1 espresso machine with the filter v3 basket, you need a grinder that can go coarse enough, 078s can...
I have an 078S Kickstarter order pending North American ceritfication. The biggest reason I got another grinder is that hand grinding light roast espresso is tiresome, and I find myself making pourovers more than espressos because of the "effort".
Today I’m drinking: Lilo Coffee Roasters, Osaka, Japan Region: Finca Genesis, Las Flores, Santa Barbara, Honduras Process: Honey Anaerobic Variety: Paraneima Got this from the Kumquat Coffee subscription and it’s great.
Awesome review video! I think you nailed it highlighting how important the grinder-burr combo is with the Zerno. Question, are you still using your P100 and if so have your thoughts on it as an end game grinder still hold?
MPs on the Zerno vs the 078 for filter goes to the 078 for you but are the miles apart or? I want to do mainly modern espresso with the Zerno and the MPs but I will definitely be using it for filter as well.
DF83V has similar design to Zerno and brew burrs with even more grinding space and smaller prebraker due to having an auger. Did you get to try it and compare to SSP MP?
Exactly same for me! Moving from the Niche Zero, stuck between the Duo/DF83+SSP MP or Zerno. Leaning towards Zerno, just seems prettier with better workflow.
@@JonFairhurst Gearbox is supposedly a bit quieter on the 2nd batch of Zernos coming out soon, I'll compare with my P64 which has the nicest sounding motor of all my grinders I've tried.
@@juzzadood4419 I intend to go with the zerno. If budget wasn’t an issue, Weber sg1 would be the choice, but that’s way, way into diminishing returns. If you’re moving from a ~600 dollar grinder to a sub 2k grinder, I think Zerno is the move. Especially that it holds up or beats bigger burrs. Maybe in 4-5 years there will be a zerno z2 with big burr energy that the wife will get behind ;)
I love my Niche duo. Got it when it first came out. Prior to that I had df83 and it broke and I was taking it apart every week due to clogging. While waiting for nicks duo, I got the eureka magnifico- it is easy and nice. I hope to upgrade someday to Weber E3!
If money wasn't an option and I had to pick from the table, I'd probably pick the Zerno. I just bought a DF64V and am very happy with it though. Today I have a City+ natural Brazil Red Catui from Burman Coffee that I roasted on the BocaBoca250 roaster, made on the Flair 58. I also have a Sulawesi honey process Gowa from Sweet Marias that I roasted to City. Last time it had an interesting apple flavor to it. Can't wait to try it again tomorrow as I changed how I roasted it, and it's my first time trying it with my DF64V and better water
For me, bought a gently used mini mazzer for 100. Still have my Ms. Silvia with pid. Both are 12 years old. My espresso is awesome. Proper puck prep, practice. Looked for used gear, plenty of it out there. If you own something like mine or better and cant make great espresso its you not the equipment. If your making great espresso but are chasing the magic brew or shot..enjoy the chase but your improvements will be subtle IMHO.
What about the Sculptor 064S with aftermarket ssp burrs compared to p.e. the DF64 with ssp burrs? The sculptor to me seems like having a more enjoyable workflow (no bellowing, grind adjustment on the front, etc.) or is there any caviat I'm not aware of?
Great video, very helpful information. Super curious if you think it is worth upgrading from a Baratza Virtuoso to the Sculptor for someone who only does filter coffee and is looking to make better pour overs? Thanks!
5:40 DF series grinders are not exactly made by Turin, that's Espresso Outlets brand, they're a major distributor in the USA and a great shop to buy your gear from, Joe from Espresso outlet is huge on social media (and now TH-cam as well) and runs a bunch of coffee / espresso oriented FaceBook groups. In Canada we have our own main distributors that carry the DF series grinders like Coffee Addicts shop which is also good! In other countries DF series may go by Other branding as well (G-Iota and Solo), sometimes the accessories may vary too. For me, on the DF83 v1 Modifying / removing one layer declumper on the V1 helped increase flavour clarity at the expense of some body, also really lowered retention amount, so much that I don't bother with using the bellows (usually). I did use it for the first time in a while today changing from espresso to pour over, and got out 0.6g retention, but usually the bellows would get out like 0.3g maybe 0.4 between espresso shots, which I think is negligible). I think it works pretty well for coarser brew methods too! (much better for coarser brew methods than the 64mm DF64 Italmill burrs!). I never really minded using a bellows much but I think it IS NOT ideal because you're blowing out a lot of fines usually then you get extra fines unevenly distributed, better to leave them out. Oh it's also a source of mess since you're often blowing fines or chaff out of your dosing cup or portafilter if you do it hard enough). I'm unsure about the Timemore knocker and if it has a similar effect, if it's catching mostly fines or chaff, then it's best to NOT include that in your coffee you'll be brewing, but to discard it separately. If it's a few grams of coffee / just regular retention then it's best to include it I'd think. That's something I'd wanna test. Does including or excluding the retention on the Timemore grinders affect the cup quality!
This video is 3 months old and you talk about a new version of the zerno, but I can't find any mention of it anywhere online. The website only talks about the Z1 and I don't see anything about updates, just some new burr options
Is there anyway I could get the sculptor 078s anywhere? I cant seem to find it to buy? :( are you selling any of them? I just bought an espresso machine but dont have a grinder 😭
Drinking muiri estate (peaberry) single origin Kenya from Noble Coffee Roasting in Ashland, Oregon. Why? Because my Kaffelogic Nano7 roaster is currently being serviced at Eight Ounce Coffee in Calgary. Looking forward to getting it back in hand so I can roast my own!
I'm waiting for my 078s which I got at the original Kickstarter price. I'm doing fine with what I have (a Sette 270), but it's just too loud. Luckily, I have a friend who needs it and doesn't mind the noise.
I’m a us backer waiting for my 78s to show up next year. While I wait I’m drinking a mix of Ethiopian + Honduras beans that I roast myself. I love to put a dime sized dot of olive oil in the cup before brewing the espresso. Glad to hear that the 078s is a capable all arounder. I mostly do espresso so it will fit my life. Now I just need the damn thing to arrive.
sup Kyle. Great video. I am drinking Caffe Lusso Ethiopia Sidama. Highly recommend this roaster from Redmond Wa. I currently have the Niche Zero and I am expecting to receive the 078S by the end of the year from the Kickstarter campaign. I am having second thoughts on the 078S though based on the insane amount of seasoning required and some of the workflow issues people are having. Thank you for taking the time to read the comments and for putting this video together. It will help me make a decision (hopefully)
I would have loved a comparison of the 64mm and 83mm SSP Multipurpose burrs in the df64/83v1. IMO this would allow a comparison between the burrs that goes beyond speculation. Loved the video though ❤
Hey! I had the 64mm burrs in the df64 and the 83! Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that. In a side by side I preferred the 83mm if that isn’t obvious. But my point was that the grinder body does play a part here - and the zerno did take an advantage for me.
Niche Zero works for everything especially espresso unless one is nit picking. Actually I use an Encore for filter coffee but only because I had it first and it's so convenient
This got to show the importance of alignment.
Prebreakers definitely makes a difference, I once swapped on the EK43. The old that was a feeder and didn’t do much of breaking and then to a Titus, this made a rather noticeable improvement on the quality of the coffee. I know Frank of Titus had a focus on this for some years. And even Mahlkönig went from feeder to prebreaker.
I personally think Timemore missed out on this, as they could have made a prebreaker rather then just a feeder in their grinders I’m very convinced it would have improved on especially the multipurpose burrs. Hopefully this will come in some later versions.
The thing about price being equal. Once you toss third part in the other, do depend on the country that you live in. Where I live the last batch would have been around €1600 the Niche Duo with SSP would be around €1285 and DF83 + SSP €1055. However once it get in full production I’ll bet on it ends near the €1900 of P64 & Orbit with SSP, making thirdpart options definitely a cheaper option. For North Americans yes it definitely isn’t worth it.
@@Zirassi if you noticed I wrote in Euros and I specifically mentioned my location, this typically means that poster include all other expenses, meaning shipping, import duties, handling fee and VAT. €1900 with a resale price of $1400 would not really be all thar far off as shipping of such heavy items is typically an expensive affair, typically around $150-200. In lower VAT countries like Germany it might get €100-200 below that.
What ever price is in US is those rather irrelevant. There reasons why p64 is also around the €1800-1900 imported, and why the Orbit is sold in Europe at a similar amount, a grinder also around $1400 in the US.
You can only use street prices in US if you live in the US, many people dos not. This means this grinders will stop being all that affordable. Why you don’t really see tons of these grinders here, because after all is done prices is easily added with 30% on top!
So Europeans should expect it to end around €1800-1900 depending on location and what burrs they choose it to come stock with. This makes it a noticeable step up in price comparison to DF83 and Niche Duo with SSP burrs.
@@mikni4069 Oh when you said "last batch" did you mean the launch edition grinders that went for 1100 with SSP burrs? I thought you meant the most recent 3rd batch of orders they took, which IIRC were priced at $1399. Thus, I thought you were implying that Zerno were going to raise their prices further.
If you say $1399 before options and shipping means 1900 euros for you, I believe you. This was simply a misunderstanding it appears.
Beans are September Coffee Subscription and Atlas Subscription. Fill in Water Ave. I love how the 64mm are described as Small Burrs, vs 1 year ago. I had your DF64E ,after months of use, there is very little static and definitely better shots. I added a Plug-in Negative Ion Air Purifier. There is now almost no coffee "mess" outside the doser.
Enjoy!
Thank you for this excellent review. I just received the Sculptor 078 to replace my Niche Zero, much as I love the Niche, I only drink pour-over! Also, looking forward to some nice coffees from September! Keep up the good work on all fronts, we coffee hobbyists (aka Wierd Coffee Persons) appreciate what you do.
Well-presented, well edited, great delivery, and great detail as well as differentiating espresso vs filter (I only care about espresso so this helps alot!) subbed!
Thanks for the great review, well done!
To my understanding the difference between the DF83 v1 and v2 was only the addition of a plasma generator to the latter. You mentioned tighter tolerances as a v2 improvement. It would be interesting to learn more about this.
I have a DF83 V1 and I will say, it was a bit messy but after adding a plasma generator kit to it, it's WAY better. I don't even need to RDT anymore.
I haven't heard of tolerances being improved on the DF83 v2, but it's possible. I believe they changed the declumper, included metal cup, as well for the v2 which is nice, but I'm enjoying my V1 DF83, I did mod the declumper and with it more opened up I actually think it may be one of my neatest grinders. It grinds fast and comes out in a neat pile mostly without as much static as my other grinders for some reason!
@@BensCoffeeRants Interesting and thanks for your reply, are you considering to add the plasma generator upgrade?
@@annoniem1177 no point for me. Installation doesn't look like fun and I don't think mine needs it.
Pulling a shot with my need zero and Breville Bambino plus so I'm solidly in the mid / entry level class but still appreciate the stuff. Your straightway take actually helped remind me that I'm already so far above everything entry level by comparing things to a Niche Zero and there's always gong to be something else coming out... so I went for it. Thanks
Niche zero is a $550-$700 grinder😂
This is entry to mid?
Amazing video Kyle. Can't wait for Zerno full review.
And for coffee I rocked milky cake today from DAK.
Right on! Enjoy, and thanks as always!
Great review. 078s, I have one on order. I am looking forward to aftermarket burrs when they are ready, with alignment I'm sure it will be the best bang for buck.
Great video, thanks Kyle! And I'm currently drinking a coffee from Ethiopia's Worka Wuri, with a very special processing method - Anaerobic Natural, with strawberries (!) in the fermentation barrel, roasted by Nahat.
Bagus Alat Mesin Kopi nya Terima kasih Sharing nya 👍
Thank you for testing the new SSP 83mm MPs! I have been waiting to hear about how they do in the DF83 and Niche Duo since they were released. It's hard not to feel vindicated about my grinder purchasing choices now- my generation 2 Zerno should be arriving in a few weeks! One small correction- the version of the grinder that's about to ship with blind burrs, ionizer, etc. is still just called the Zerno Z1, not the Z2 (that will probably be the big Zerno- which Vel wants to make compatible with 80mm and 83mm burrs!!!). It's actually the 100 Zernos from the first run (lacking the new features) that got the alternate naming- they are technically called "Zerno Z1 Launch Edition."
When you review the Generation 2 Zerno, I would love to see you try Espresso from both the SSP 64mm Brew burrs and the Ode Gen 2 burrs. The Zerno will do espresso with both, and I'd love to get your opinion on it (especially since I ordered my Zerno with Blind Brew burrs for Espresso). If feasible, it would also be cool to hear about how the Gorilla Gear burrs compare (one Zerno owner on reddit told me they make shots quite similar to the Ode Gen 2 actually).
He gets a lot of contenders a great run down on this. Great take on a confusing shopping purchase.
Thanks, Kyle. I appreciate your valuable thoughts.
No worries!
Drinking game: a shot every time Kyle says „burr“! 😂🤪
So excited about this video!
Enjoy!
Yes, Yes, Yes! Exceptional composition. Review perfection.
Thank you
I use the DF 64 with Titanium Burrs (3rd or 4th version) and I agree the espressos taste great at least for me. The price I paid was only 340 US in Indonesia. Guess for that price its great value and hard to beat.
Where would you put the df83v. whats the best espresso with an espresso burr set
Fuuuck, we do love them. You got us there
It would be awesome if, some day, you get to visit a coffee farm and make in-depth videos of their processes as well as your experiences locally. There are currently not enough of those types of content in English on TH-cam.
Already in the works
Niche mob arriving any second now😂
Great review, Kyle~
You just made my night a whole lot better❤
Ha why’s that? I said it’s good!
@@KyleRowsell …but you didn't say it's the best😏 j/k
@@lilteyang haha it’s not! But it’s very good in many ways
@@KyleRowsell Does it kill the Niche (Zero) though? :D
Thinking of buying myself a machine and grinder to start my coffee journey. Have watched your videos and think I've got between £1500 - £2000 to spend. I'm focused on espresso, and don't see my doing pour over or anything else, but maybe I just don't know enough yet.
Can I do better than a Safe Dual boiler and a niche zero? Is there a grinder better than the zero yet for espresso?
Hey Kyle, this may not be really related (but I think I'm speaking for many people), but I'm curious how the 078s compares with the Lagom mini?
Considering that the Lagom mini was your top pick for multi-purpose grinders just 6 months ago
Very useful review. Top!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you Kyle! 🙏 "The" video/upload I've been needing. I appreciate the time and effort you put into making these! I may have to watch it a few more times before making my final decision! I roast my own beans on a sample roaster. Currently roasting El Salvador Cerro Las Ranas Honey Processed, light to medium! Cheers! ☕
This morning I got coffee by MOK. Blend of Ethiopia and Kenya for a v60. It’s was amazing
Nice!
Would love to see a super premium grinder showdown between things like the P100, Monolith Flat Max, EG-1, etc to see if how the updates to them over the years have impacted them if at all. Also just to see your thoughts on them as you were the first person I found when I started my coffee journey
Haha I’ll leave that for hoff. He’s done the big grinders and that video will make me broke.
@@KyleRowsell Haha I have seen Hoffs video on them and I look forward to seeing what all future content you put out!
Thank you for making a cool video, Kyle!
I'm currently using Forte BG and Mignon Specialita, but I'd like to wait until next year and upgrade them to 078 or 078s!
(It would be best if we could solve the problem of some beans stagnating in the hopper.)
Hi Kyle, nice video but I focused mainly on the 078s tbh :). How about seasoning burrs with rice? I'm really looking forward to receiving the grinder and how well it will do against my Eureka E75 to replace it. I find the Eureka noisy and it has too much retention for the amount of coffee I drink on a day.
I wouldn’t do that personally. Just use it as normal, and it’ll age fine
I've put some minute rice (parboiled / quick cook) through a few grinders, but not sure if it's really dense enough to do much for seasoning. I talked to one guy who swore by it though! I wouldn't do regular hard uncooked rice, just quick cook type.
Hey Kyle, here starting with a washed red bourbon from Nomad...for now handgrinded hahaha
Enjoy! That sounds delicious
Tenenga Community. Papua New Guinea, Western Highlands, Honey process, Bright Jenny Coffee Roasters in Kelowna British Columbia
Thanks!
Thanks for the review. Currently using eureka magnifico and it’s nice- especially the fact the workflow is so easy unlike the df83. My original grinder was a DF83 and it broke, so I bought the magnifico in the interim. I bought the niche duo and it’s literally on its way. I had to pay $77.80 import duty in USA. Despite the import duty, I’m looking forward to getting it. If this isn’t up to par as grinder- I’ll probably look at the Lagom 100 or Weber eg1 next. I’m trying not to spend thousands. But I suspect I’ll end up not being happy until I get a pricy model.
how's difference between the taste in filter coffee on 078 and fellow ODE V2?
Ode 2 is good for the majority. 078 creates cleaner cups for those who care
@@KyleRowsellHow about ode v2 in comparison to 078S? Would it be worth ode v2 + dedicated espresso grinder over trying to use the 078S for both?
What if I seasoned with rice? Its just so much cheaper then coffee beans.
Just got my 078s in and I have to turn the speed down to nearly the lowest possible to get espresso to work. What speed do you have your motor running?
78s is wonderful after a lot of beans. 6 kilos.
Honduras Marcala from Sabbath
10kg of coffee to season, lol! Hope you are using bad quality coffee beans XD
Congratulations Kyle - because this was a really well done review of grinders in the price range that many coffee nerds are willing to pay and are interested in - and you were able to be thorough yet concise at the same time which is hard to do. Great job.
Thank you Kyle!
I would love to see how these stack up in a blind taste test versus some of the premium but significantly cheaper hand grinders (Commadante, 1zpresso). Feels like reviews tend to avoid directly comparing electric to hand grinders but price, especially these days, is not something to totally ignore especially if an X-pro at 130 USD could match or be like 90% the quality of these 600-1 grand grinders.
Oh yes! I would pay for a direct comparison like this!
Let me guess, you want to hear that your cheap hand grinder gives you similar results to something expensive and electric, right? lol It probably does.
@@bluemystic7501 I backed the 064s and have the VS3. But it would be awesome to be able to recommend hand grinders to friends and family instead of the usual reddit / youtube content that pretends that 400 dollars is “budget friendly” for all people. Why the aggression? You good?
here are some information if you curious
as i used EK43 - the 3 grand usd - top of food chain flat burr grinder
comandante (300ish usd)
and Q2 7 axis version (99usd), similar bur with x-pro, but with smaller size
if u used them for filter at same grind size, all of them have very similar complexity, clarity, and aroma, i can said, its 99% similar, even pro wont be able to know which is which on blind cup
if u use them for espresso.... well its another story
and zp6... well... its topple all of above
@@frederickateng3779 not clear what you are trying to say about the ZP6. It is specifically designed for pour-overs.
Great review!
How would you compare the taste and texture of espresso between the Niche Duo and the DF83 in stock form - Mazzer burrs vs ItalMil burrs - 530 rpms vs 1400 rpms.
Look forward to your response.
Thanks.
Great question. Your thoughts Kyle?
I would like to know too!
@@ksubswithnovideos-fm8el I don’t think Kyle knows 😂
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FIORENZATO ALLGROUND? th-cam.com/video/3HIipRvWqx0/w-d-xo.html. Now this is a grinder. The portafilter holder, has a built in scale, and you can click a switch to pull the the burrs out to clean. No unscrewing parts.
Can we just step aside and think about the return on investment on these things. It's very easy to contract upgraditus and go on a shopping spree. I bet the subtle differences between the burr sets are pretty minor for 99% of us coffee nerds. This explosion on the grinder market, driven by chinese manufacturers and the fact that coffee nerds have too much disposable income + youtubers feeding into it in order to create content is one hell of a combo. Let's just...stay sane guys
💯 agree. Too much content in conjunction with too much products. I’m fairly confident most home coffee nerds won’t be able to notice that much of a difference between burr sets to grinders. Six in one, half a dozen in the other.
What would you suspect is the point where you hit diminishing returns ?
@@hankschrader2353The $159 I paid for my Ode Gen 1 😂
@@hankschrader2353DF64 V2 or hand grinder like 1z for espresso. For pourover a reputable but cheap Chinese ghost burr grinder.
None of them is really expensive, so the return of invest is fine on all of them. The EG-1 is 3500-4000€ that’s, where we can talk about roi…
Great summary. I forget if I mentioned this earlier but on my original V1 DF83 I have modded the declumper to open it up and get coffee to flow out easier, because the burrs are so quick to grind, I think the declumper held coffee back and reground coffee leading to more fines. I noticed more clarity but less body after opening it up more, but also a lot less retention and I don't usually bother even using the bellows.
Can't wait for my 078 and 078s to come in especially after this video! The fact that the 078 is on your September table for roast profile speaks volumes to its taste and how well I will enjoy it being a huge purchaser of your coffee :)
You’re one of the few reviewers who clearly talks about whether the grinder is for filter or espresso. Thank you! Great review
Thanks Kyle, still waiting on my 078s (launch day price) I hope it will be here before winter :)
Granted there are some quirks with the sculptor worklfow, I did it mostly for the looks, as the zerno is oyt of my budget. And any remaining budget will be spend on beans and maybe a new espresso machine in the future :)
Totally fair. I think you’ll be happy!
I'm getting the 78S as well. I feel like people are a little down on it because of sewing machine comparisons, but since I personally think it looks like a hair dryer, I'm much happier with it... 😂
Dear Kyle, could you please make a comparison video between the p64 option-o and the zerno z1?
The morning just got a whole lot better
Enjoy!
Same 😂
@@cade5400 🙏
@@KyleRowsell curious to know what you'd pick if you had to pick between P100 with HU or two Zernos (1 with MP and one with HU)
14:00 For Timemore078s I don't think any reviewers really made it seem like a big deal about the espresso grind adjustment range, but a lot of people seemed really concerned that it was too small for espresso dialing in initially. I think somewhere on Facebook or something, someone from Timemore mentioned that the 078s has much smaller tics, where each small tic point represented like 5microns of burr movement (smaller than a red blood cell). However on the filter oriented 078 body the movement is a little larger like 15 microns I believe (I forget the details). So when all the reviewers were mentioning dialing in range for espresso wasn't that big, but using 078s burrs in a 078 body, I'm like no Duh, it's not the 'real' grinder. It's very close / similar I'm sure but that's one thing they're tweaking so it's more espresso oriented, which makes sense.
I'm hoping I can swap in the 078 burrs into the 078s body eventually without any issues, or SSP will make some Weber Core or Ultra style burrs in 78mm size for it! (I'm the guy that told you to lend a 078 to Hansung from SSP for getting the measurements needed and testing!).
Yes that is true. However my main concern with the 078s is channeling on espresso.
Charlie and Our Coffee Shelter mentioned that even after they had put in many KGs they are still facing channeling. It may be due to the burs being too sharp, I am not sure. But it is a valid issue.
@@jamousg it worked better at lower R.P.M. I believe for him which is weird but at least there's that until someone else makes better burrs or they get seasoned. No other reviews mentioned it so might be a one off case and something was wrong with his grinder (which isn't a good sign either!) or it just needed more seasoning as Kyle discovered.
But if there's such a difference pre and post seasoning manufacturers. Really need to start pre seasoning their burrs. Gorilla gear does this with their burrs.
@@jamousg oh I didn't realize our coffee shelter also mentioned channeling? I'll have to find that one, it was a video?
@@BensCoffeeRants I replied to you, but for some reason TH-cam is deleting my comment.
Really happy with this great review!! I'm doubting between the DF83, the DF64V and the Timemore 078S. I usually make espresso with my LaPavoni Professional but also filter now and then in a Moccamaster. Also I use V60 but I use a hand grinder for that. I buy freshly roasted beans (medium roasted, 100% Arabica Pulped Natural)
@Kyle: How do you see the DF64V with DLC burrs or evt. Lab Sweet compared with the 078S or DF83?
All good choices. We went from having like no good single dose low retention grinders for home espresso to having WAY TOO many options and more coming out everyday it seems! :D I think we have the Niche Zero and DF64 series grinders to thank for that.
@@BensCoffeeRants Thanks! I agree, all good choices. Which makes it so hard to choose 😉
I don't understand all these reviews on the Timemore when you can't seem to get it. I go to the kickstarter page for the Sculptor and it is completely IMPOSSIBLE to sort out. There doesn't appear to be any way too actually order the 078. Can anyone enlighten me on this process.
I just returned a df64 gen 2. I had a lot of problems with mine. I think it was just defective. However, I'm now back looking for a grinder. I want one that can do filter and espresso decently.
Thanks for all your reviews Kyle! You helped me pull the trigger on the Eureka Oro Mignon then eventually returning that and buying the Weber Workshops Key! I love it! I roast my own coffee on a San Fransiscan SF-1. I get my green beans from my local roaster Rocabilly Roasting Company here in Kennewick, WA.
Just used my new DF83 v2 for the first time yesterday so the timing on this video is perfect. Very happy with my purchase!
Happy to hear it!
My wife accidentally broke our 1zpresso K ultra. To be fair to her it was having some troubles switching sizes but she switched sizes mid grind and it just locked up. All said and done the threading was stripped.
I put down on the Time More Sculptor 078S and I’ve been watching every review to make sure it was a good investment.
She likes pour over in a porous ceramic filter, I like black straight espresso or lungo shots.
Thank you for your comparisons, I feel better about my choice.
I don’t think I’ll ever find a perfect multi-purpose grinder. But I’ll settle for getting good enough for both of us.
For espresso, which is a better buy DF83v2 vs Niche Duo?
Hey Kyle, since you have both the 078 and 078s, I think one thing to put to rest is whether both models have the same grind adjustment range? There's been people assuming the 078s is more granular but no one ever gave a clear answer. I'd assume if you swapped the burr sets between the two, they should work the same?
Also the 80mm burrs have more area than the 83 because the inner diameter is a lot bigger on the 83mm
I saw someone posted something saying the adjustment is more precise (smaller movement of the burrs) for the espresso oriented grinders (078s and 064s). Each fine tic is only 5 micron movement. I believe that is accurate. Earlier reviews they were using 078 body (with 078s burrs) which I believe has larger burr movement per tic mark.
I just ordered a Zerno. I just wish it had a deioniser. Besides that 0 complaints
I‘m in the process of finally upgrading my home coffee set up from a Nespresso machine to the real deal, and have found your comparison and review videos to be incredibly valuable. I have learned so much about the different features to look for, and now have a better idea what I want and how much I will need to spend. So, thank you! To answer your question, I would undoubtedly buy the Niche if I didn’t have to pay import tax on it (19% here in Germany). Which means that I’m currently leaning towards the DF64 or 83.
hey, hast du dich schon für eine Mühle entschieden? Bin kurz davor mir die 83v2 zu holen. Will damit Espresso und Café Creme mit sämtlichen Röstgraden versuchen. Hast du da vllt schon Erfahrungen machen können, ob das gut funktioniert? Liebe Grüße aus Nürnberg
$600-$1200!?!?
It’s hard paying for groceries…
Perfect timing! Swapping my entire coffee bar and starting with Fellow Stagg kettle, replacing Vario W grinder. Drinking Blanchards Coffee Richmond VA Kenyan Kiri AA. Fantastic local roaster. Can’t wait to try September!
8:08 Zerno Z1 is a bit confusing, because Vel is making revisions on them with each batch it seems, I believe it's still the Z1, just Z1 v2 maybe? :D
People are already telling him to make a successor to the Zerno z1 with 80mm burrs and it seems like something he might be into, but way down the line. Definitely needs to work on getting the Z1's out first. So far I think it's just the initial batch of like 100 grinders out, and another 250 I think being shipped out soon, I'll be getting one of those.
The new Augers have 3 different feed rates, slow, medium and fast (Stock ones being shipped out with the next batch of grinders are the mediums), I think the original one people were saying fed too fast, and you get better results slowing it down. A lot of people already do this by slowly pouring their coffee in their single dose grinders instead of just dumping it all at once. It's supposed to improve grind consistency (should increase flavour clarity, possibly reduce body though).
Zerno actually comes with a more traditional Mazzer burr, but for BLIND SSP burrs it's only $100 USD extra. (Z1 v2 now can take blind, no screw hole, or standard 64mm burrs! Probably doesn't make much of a difference but it's cool).
Pulling September's July susubscription offerings this morning. Wife loves the Janja Hill and I'm partial to the Genji Challa
The June sub! Very nice, enjoy it!
Espresso Outlet is the 🐝 knees!! I had a great experience ordering my DF64V with them
That's awesome! Love them
Krishnagiri estate (Chikmagalur, India) Washed Arabica( mixture of SLN 795 and Chndragiri) Roasted by me. I own a boutique roasterie called kāpikottai
Fantastic showdown Kyle! As a 078s backer, I feel like that a smart decision.
I have a question around aftermarket 78mm burrs. Neither SSP MP nor HU are not available in the 78mm size.
Do you have any insites whether it may change in the future? Would you replace the stock burrs set in the 078s?
I believe SSP WILL make burrs for the 78mm grinders, not sure they can do better for filter, but if you're looking for a higher clarity espresso burr or maybe lab sweet balanced type burr I think those might be worth considering. People seem to give the 078s burrs mixed reviews, they sound alright after some seasoning maybe. But like everything it really depends what you're comparing it with.
I in my 3d month of DF83 v2 from Joe Kolb’s espresso outlet. It’s been exceptional. Never more than .2 mg. Usually 0.1 to 0 retention. This has been its performance out of the box. I’m strictly espresso and using it stock. Could not be happier!
Happy to hear it
Thanks for this, I ended up buying the 78s due to light roasts being so annoying to grind with my JX-Pro so it's good to see that it was a good choice for that.
Know it's been a while since you've reviewed it but do you reckon it's a noticeable jump from the JX-Pro to the 78s for espresso taste?
I think you'll likely see an good improvement.
33:15 Damn, too late, I have 1 of these grinders and 2 others coming, but now I also want the 078 Burrs :D
I'm curious how the 83mm Cast burrs compare with the other burrs when you get them later.
Think I’m in the minority but the zerno is ugly, can’t get past the looks.
I’m a filter only drinker so I’d be going with the 078 🎉
To each their own!
Enjoy your 1990s sewing machine if that's what you're into :D
@@BensCoffeeRants I have an ode gen 2 so I don’t need any of these 👍🏻
There seems to be a debate among experts whether seasoning burrs actually does anything. If the 078s produces uneven grind distribution out of the box, why wasnt this caught and fixed during Timemore's "extensive" testing? Two reviewers noted this channeling and sputtering and it seems unacceptable at this price point.
And will running a few pounds of coffee thru it "dull" the hardened steel blades enough to make a difference?!?
th-cam.com/video/-ut_nOrt53E/w-d-xo.html
First off, the Sprometheus video is one specific burrset, he doesn't say it applies to all burrs. And the video does show a difference big enough to need to change the grind setting to accommodate the unseasoned burrs for espresso. You did watch the video, right? Also, my understanding is that seasoning isn't to dull the burrs, but that it removes machining marks and metal burrs and the like from the burrs. There have been laser analyzed studies of grinds that show that there is a difference pre and post seasoning that I have seen Jonathan Gagne mention.
@@Foolsauce why does the 078s channel and spurt out of the box? Other grinders at that price point don't
@@tagheuer02 I agree that's a problem. Odd that was okay with them.
What would a good upgrade from a niche hero?
Enjoyed the comparisons while drinking a cap made with the line street blend from Broadsheet coffee roasters
Enjoy!
2:38 The Timemore's flat / turbo burrs are supposed to be designed or made by "GrindLabs" I believe, but I think people suspect that's just what they're calling their burr division maybe in order to seem like they used a more experienced burr making company for these burrs :D
Ive pre-ordered the 078s as I do 90% espresso and then do filter, and aeropress sometimes... also the decent DE-1 espresso machine with the filter v3 basket, you need a grinder that can go coarse enough, 078s can...
I have an 078S Kickstarter order pending North American ceritfication. The biggest reason I got another grinder is that hand grinding light roast espresso is tiresome, and I find myself making pourovers more than espressos because of the "effort".
Today I’m drinking:
Lilo Coffee Roasters, Osaka, Japan
Region: Finca Genesis, Las Flores, Santa Barbara, Honduras
Process: Honey Anaerobic
Variety: Paraneima
Got this from the Kumquat Coffee subscription and it’s great.
Awesome review video! I think you nailed it highlighting how important the grinder-burr combo is with the Zerno. Question, are you still using your P100 and if so have your thoughts on it as an end game grinder still hold?
Awesome. Can you do a similar video for sub 500$ for us poor folk?
Already done! Scroll through my videos a few months!
@KyleRowsell there isn't one for 300-600 range though.
Can‘t help myself but the Sculptors, especially in white, look like the handpiece of the Xiaomi G10 vacuum cleaner! 😆🙈
MPs on the Zerno vs the 078 for filter goes to the 078 for you but are the miles apart or? I want to do mainly modern espresso with the Zerno and the MPs but I will definitely be using it for filter as well.
DF83V has similar design to Zerno and brew burrs with even more grinding space and smaller prebraker due to having an auger. Did you get to try it and compare to SSP MP?
Drinking Sanka today Kyle.
This is exactly the content I’ve been looking for! Moving on from a niche zero and looking for a grinder to pair with a de1 pro. Very helpful!
Glad I could help!
Exactly same for me! Moving from the Niche Zero, stuck between the Duo/DF83+SSP MP or Zerno.
Leaning towards Zerno, just seems prettier with better workflow.
A bit loud though. Might it be worth it to save for an Option-O Lagom P???
@@JonFairhurst Gearbox is supposedly a bit quieter on the 2nd batch of Zernos coming out soon, I'll compare with my P64 which has the nicest sounding motor of all my grinders I've tried.
@@juzzadood4419 I intend to go with the zerno. If budget wasn’t an issue, Weber sg1 would be the choice, but that’s way, way into diminishing returns.
If you’re moving from a ~600 dollar grinder to a sub 2k grinder, I think Zerno is the move.
Especially that it holds up or beats bigger burrs. Maybe in 4-5 years there will be a zerno z2 with big burr energy that the wife will get behind ;)
I love my Niche duo. Got it when it first came out. Prior to that I had df83 and it broke and I was taking it apart every week due to clogging. While waiting for nicks duo, I got the eureka magnifico- it is easy and nice. I hope to upgrade someday to Weber E3!
If money wasn't an option and I had to pick from the table, I'd probably pick the Zerno. I just bought a DF64V and am very happy with it though.
Today I have a City+ natural Brazil Red Catui from Burman Coffee that I roasted on the BocaBoca250 roaster, made on the Flair 58. I also have a Sulawesi honey process Gowa from Sweet Marias that I roasted to City. Last time it had an interesting apple flavor to it. Can't wait to try it again tomorrow as I changed how I roasted it, and it's my first time trying it with my DF64V and better water
For me, bought a gently used mini mazzer for 100. Still have my Ms. Silvia with pid. Both are 12 years old. My espresso is awesome. Proper puck prep, practice. Looked for used gear, plenty of it out there. If you own something like mine or better and cant make great espresso its you not the equipment. If your making great espresso but are chasing the magic brew or shot..enjoy the chase but your improvements will be subtle IMHO.
What about the Sculptor 064S with aftermarket ssp burrs compared to p.e. the DF64 with ssp burrs?
The sculptor to me seems like having a more enjoyable workflow (no bellowing, grind adjustment on the front, etc.) or is there any caviat I'm not aware of?
Great video, very helpful information. Super curious if you think it is worth upgrading from a Baratza Virtuoso to the Sculptor for someone who only does filter coffee and is looking to make better pour overs? Thanks!
5:40 DF series grinders are not exactly made by Turin, that's Espresso Outlets brand, they're a major distributor in the USA and a great shop to buy your gear from, Joe from Espresso outlet is huge on social media (and now TH-cam as well) and runs a bunch of coffee / espresso oriented FaceBook groups. In Canada we have our own main distributors that carry the DF series grinders like Coffee Addicts shop which is also good! In other countries DF series may go by Other branding as well (G-Iota and Solo), sometimes the accessories may vary too.
For me, on the DF83 v1 Modifying / removing one layer declumper on the V1 helped increase flavour clarity at the expense of some body, also really lowered retention amount, so much that I don't bother with using the bellows (usually). I did use it for the first time in a while today changing from espresso to pour over, and got out 0.6g retention, but usually the bellows would get out like 0.3g maybe 0.4 between espresso shots, which I think is negligible). I think it works pretty well for coarser brew methods too! (much better for coarser brew methods than the 64mm DF64 Italmill burrs!).
I never really minded using a bellows much but I think it IS NOT ideal because you're blowing out a lot of fines usually then you get extra fines unevenly distributed, better to leave them out. Oh it's also a source of mess since you're often blowing fines or chaff out of your dosing cup or portafilter if you do it hard enough).
I'm unsure about the Timemore knocker and if it has a similar effect, if it's catching mostly fines or chaff, then it's best to NOT include that in your coffee you'll be brewing, but to discard it separately. If it's a few grams of coffee / just regular retention then it's best to include it I'd think.
That's something I'd wanna test. Does including or excluding the retention on the Timemore grinders affect the cup quality!
@@cuprajake1 He's friends with Portakeeper guy (His name is Barret), I think they work together now.
This video is 3 months old and you talk about a new version of the zerno, but I can't find any mention of it anywhere online. The website only talks about the Z1 and I don't see anything about updates, just some new burr options
Is there anyway I could get the sculptor 078s anywhere? I cant seem to find it to buy? :( are you selling any of them? I just bought an espresso machine but dont have a grinder 😭
Drinking muiri estate (peaberry) single origin Kenya from Noble Coffee Roasting in Ashland, Oregon.
Why? Because my Kaffelogic Nano7 roaster is currently being serviced at Eight Ounce Coffee in Calgary. Looking forward to getting it back in hand so I can roast my own!
I'm waiting for my 078s which I got at the original Kickstarter price. I'm doing fine with what I have (a Sette 270), but it's just too loud. Luckily, I have a friend who needs it and doesn't mind the noise.
I’m a us backer waiting for my 78s to show up next year. While I wait I’m drinking a mix of Ethiopian + Honduras beans that I roast myself. I love to put a dime sized dot of olive oil in the cup before brewing the espresso.
Glad to hear that the 078s is a capable all arounder. I mostly do espresso so it will fit my life. Now I just need the damn thing to arrive.
sup Kyle. Great video. I am drinking Caffe Lusso Ethiopia Sidama. Highly recommend this roaster from Redmond Wa. I currently have the Niche Zero and I am expecting to receive the 078S by the end of the year from the Kickstarter campaign. I am having second thoughts on the 078S though based on the insane amount of seasoning required and some of the workflow issues people are having. Thank you for taking the time to read the comments and for putting this video together. It will help me make a decision (hopefully)
I would have loved a comparison of the 64mm and 83mm SSP Multipurpose burrs in the df64/83v1. IMO this would allow a comparison between the burrs that goes beyond speculation.
Loved the video though ❤
Hey! I had the 64mm burrs in the df64 and the 83! Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that. In a side by side I preferred the 83mm if that isn’t obvious. But my point was that the grinder body does play a part here - and the zerno did take an advantage for me.
@@KyleRowsell Thanks for your response! Good to know that you thought of everything. No further questions then! :D
Niche Zero works for everything especially espresso unless one is nit picking. Actually I use an Encore for filter coffee but only because I had it first and it's so convenient