You have very good insights into how life really works. What makes for a satisfying individual lived experience is finding the intersection of what you enjoy doing, what you are good at doing, and what people appreciate enough to reward you for. Acceptance and accommodation can make this easier, but you still have to find the path.
Someone with a personality disorder is first and foremost someone with complex PTSD. Their traits grew out of an attempt at survival. I think it is hypocritical to care and advocate for all of the people with PTSD that were able to survive their life circumstances with their empathy intact, and then turn towards people with NPD and ASPD with discrimination and stigma. We are all responsible for our own behavior. If we do bad things, there are (or should be) undesirable consequences. But that doesn’t mean their lives should be considered worthless or less than. No one’s diagnoses excuses their bad behavior, it just explains it. Accepting people with NPD and ASPD does not have to look like tolerating abuse. That line in the sand has a lot of nuance to it, but I stand by it. I don’t think “neurodiversity” should be wholly considered good or bad or neutral. It’s just a concept about how our brains are all different. Some of them, in ways that can change, and others in ways that cannot change. Our brains have plasticity, they are very changing by our life experiences.
The whole point of neurodiversity is that it means a diverse group of people. It's meant to be broad. Like you wouldn't be able to call it diversity at all if it was only describing one or two groups. That's the whole point, bringing socially isolated groups together.
Yes. Neurodiversity is a biological fact of human population. Human population is neurodiverse. Historically, people have idealized normal as not merely descriptive of average, but what people ought to be like. Neurodivergence refers to those tho significantly diverge from this idealized normal, which is then called neurotypicality. The ultimate goal is to eliminate false binaries and dichotomies. Eliminate hierarchies of people that leads to marginalization.
@@HarryPotter-kb7we Right, but when the divergence is so extreme as to be called a disorder, such people are in a separate category from those whose neurodivergence is minimal or not extreme.
@@jbr84tx Development is a complex, interdynamic process that's influenced by many variables, like genetics, environment, adverse events, reactions and experiences. It's not autism that's disordered or pathological. It's the things that negatively impacted development. Autism is simply a pattern of variation in developmental trajectory. By saying autism is a disorder, it's implied the person's entire neurodevelopment is disordered. This makes invisible any positive or neutral differences between autistic and non autistic. It'd be more accurate to say there are autism related disorders, which are also not completely inherent to the individual, but relative to the individual-environment fit.
I think it all boils down to "how the hell do we accommodate neurotypicals so that they accommodate us". Like, I fully agree with you, we celebrate the positives, we take what's neutral as is, and we offer support to overcome the negatives. Isn't that how it is? And what we want 'the majority of people' to understand? So how do we get them to understand it? The proverbial line in the sand should be drawn in regards to support needs more than diagnosis itself. But also (and this is my biggest frustration pain of all) I wish people in general saw each other as someone that can contribute something to their lives and viceversa, not as either "charity cases" or as "master manipulators". An interdependence model, if you wish. Neurotypicals have A LOT to learn from neurodivergents, is my belief. Thank you for the video.
I have strong ADHD and my social circles are majority autistic and virtually all neurodiverse - ADHD, OCD, etc. I have experienced autistic people being adamant that I am autistic because of my intense and excited interests (I consider the idea very carefully and thoroughly, but I don't find it at all likely that I'm autistic personally, just strong ADHD), and some others have othered me or even been inherently suspicious of me because I'm not autistic, as if I'm on a different team of existence. That's mostly people who make a point to primarily interact with other autistic people. And I love how much community autistic people are able to achieve with each other, but it's so important to remember that neurotypical people aren't the only ones who ought to respect people who are different from themselves.
Yeah, this, most of my friends happen to be neurodivergent in different ways, cause they are where the people with the patience and apriciation for my autistic traits, both best friends have ADHD, wife of one had AuDHD like me, and my longest friendship is with another Autist.... We tend to group togeather due to our communication issues, and our habit to question weird behavior less.... But yeah, you cant demand understanding and accomodation, if you are not willing to offer the same. My friendships work, cause we are all very accomodating no matter if we get why its a need for the other ot not. No judgment. But I would never base who I befriend based on their diagnosis....some people I get along great and are amazing at accomodating are NT too! And adhd and autism have a massiv overlap one can share a lot of traits without having the same diagnosis... And yes turning diskrimination around never is the answer
As a(18yo) guy with autism, I have a friend group consisting of friends I’ve ‘amassed’ at different points of my life. Either teachers matched me with someone, or someone approached me. I know one of my friends is an AuDHD’er. He had his diagnosis early in life and he has been very open about it from pretty early on, before I got my diagnosis aged 16 (nearly 17). I suspect another friend of mine could be autistic as well. He has very specific interests and is rather socially awkward like me (though not all autistic people are… my AuDHD friend is not. Not when looking at it from my lens, at least). I suspect he may be an undiagnosed case of autism. As for my third friend in the friend group… I don’t really ‘suspect’ any sort of neurodiversity. But he can be quirky and have the most random and stupid (in a fun way) ideas.
... except the neurotypicals have the entirety of our culture behind them, patting them on the back at every turn and assuring them that they are the 'normal' ones. Autistic people don't have that. Do you not see the huge difference here? If an autist is disrespectful to a neurotypical it's an isolated experience, and the neurotypical can simply avoid that person. Meanwhile the autist has to deal with that very same experience on a regular basis with pretty much every group of people he ever has to interact with, which he can't just escape from (unless he is privileged enough to be able to work from home). It's really backwards to blame autistic people for an attitude they are forced to adopt due to neurotypicals' doing. That's like blaming women for being paranoid about men, or black people for being mistrustful of white people, or queer people about cishets.
@@DaveGrean I understand where you're coming from, and on a systemic level I agree with a lot of that. But I'm talking about someone with one form of neurodiversity being a jerk to someone with a different form of neurodiversity interpersonally. I've only really experienced this in a situation where a microcommunity is basically all neurodiverse and mostly autistic, and I think it's sad for people who face systemic ablism for their neurodiversity to take it out on other neurodiverse people around them whose neurodiversity is less represented in a microcommunity. We should be able to work together and treat each other interpersonally with the acceptance the larger world has denied all of us. Edit to say that the situation reminds me a lot of lesbians who don't accept bisexual women. I'm a bisexual woman, and I have experienced lesbians erasing my bisexuality in a queer space, either saying that I must be a lesbian if I'm with a woman at the time or that I'm straight if I'm with a man. We should be able to work together for acceptance of queerness even if our queerness takes different forms, just like we should be able to work together to promote acceptance of neurodiversity even if our neurodiversity takes different forms
I wouldn't ever normally wade through an hour of a talking head, but your delivery, pace, vocabulary and polemic development made it a real pleasure to listen to (while I shouted in the kitchen and shook my fist at the sky and nodded in agreement, not at at the same time...) I would add that your keen awareness of the history of the ND community, and the demarcations between a pathology and an identity, were very carefully expressed - and your clear empathy with others, and willingness to open your head to the various lived experiences of ND people, allows this to be a "thought-starter" of a video. Not a thought-ender..! I would watch more of the same. From a production point of view, I really appreciate the simple, pared back style and no flashy graphics, some nice cut-aways to camera 2, I was looking to see if you were reading a script, but I don't think you were! Maybe you have header notes to prompt you, I dunno, but I could not talk for that long about something so complex without a plan, probably in the shape of a tree, and with different colours for branches. But that's just me. Your presentation just flowed so well.
Love how it turned out also. I hear you there justinwebb. Likely a speech outline with topic points to touch on and cover. Due to the time stamp. Not too structured, but in a way balanced. As a late diagnose ADHDer am netural towards my condition. More interested in working on my own framework of who I am in connection to my status. For it is a part of me and important to know theyself.
If you want to avoid the black and white dichotomy of the medical model vs the social model there is the biopsychosocial model, which has a social element without reducing it to that entirely.
Still problematic. Impairment itself needs to be problematized, not only disability. A difference can be impairment in one social context, and be an advantage or neutral trait in another. Impairment is not a natural, biomedical fact.
The "all neurodivergence is good" type of thing always rubbed me wrong. I'm schizotypal, and the running assumption among geneticists is that we provide an important role for humanity (roughly speaking, being shamans, elaboration would take hours), and that evolution is *tolerating* schizophrenia so that we can be around. That is, the overall payoff for species fitness for "have schizotypals, and also schizophrenics" is higher than for "have no or very very few schizotypals and schizophrenics". My issues are almost entirely shit life syndrome, to which we're more prone because society in its current incarnation doesn't really vibe with us, I imagine it's somewhat similar with autists. On top of that, though, there's also shit lot syndrome and you don't want to wish that on anyone. Stuff you can't grow yourself out of.
The solution is often found in the problem. The only reason people get ABA is that there is nothing else available. I've never had ABA, but I have a lot of the same problems, so I've been asking around for things that might help. You get rid of ABA by replacing it. Part of the description of this new therapy should read, "...helps people recover from the negative effects of ABA." As I said, I never had ABA, so the need for this therapy will not go away once ABA is done away with.
While I agree that being neurodivergent shouldn't be viewed as something completely positive, some neurodivergent people like myself have had a few positive experiences with being neurodivergent as well as having negative experiences with being neurodivergent. Therefore if a cure for autism did exist, then it should be completely up to the autistic person to decide on whether or not he wants to get rid of his autism, since I personally still would not choose to get rid of my autism since there are things about my autism that I really enjoy even though I've also had negative experiences with having autism.
The thing is, how do you get rid of how your brain is build?! I woule not object to a med reducing overstimulation, but truely getting rid of autism is not only impossible, but also wouls mean to change everything about how we think and feel and that is very objectable
@@SingingSealRiana , so what your saying is that I would seize being a purple horse if I changed my brain in order to become neurotypical. I agree. I would seize being me. But I would be a different type of me. Not that I would want to seize being a purple horse.
@@SingingSealRiana There is no 'cure' for autism. From my observation and interaction with autistic people, most would rather NOT be autistic. They consider it a handicap. Yes, there are positive aspects to it, but for a lot of autistics, the drawbacks outweigh the positives. I personally would rather not be autistic, but I make the best of my talents and work around my deficits as much as I can.
Been in a relationship with my autistic boyfriend for a little over a month, currently going through his first shutdown with me and your content has been very helpful in identifying what is happening and what to do. Thank you for the info and keep it up!
Well said Thomas, great work, articulate in presentation, well thought through. Interesting perspective, plenty to think about. Thank you Yorkshire Lad.
Thank you for tour careful handling of this topic. You’ve clearly thought a lot about it and made a lot of good points. I think you’ve put your finger on a problem we need to talk about.
I think a central vocabulary issue is the confused vocabulary between neurotype, and support needs. To be *diagnosed* "autistic" you need to have both. The support needs can be adressed, and might change and even no longer be present. However someone once diagnosed autistic are keeping their "diagnosis" even if they no longer receive any support.. I can see practical reasons for this, but I think a lot of the understanding problems we see steem from this. I can see a lot of reasons I would be sceptical to employ someone with unspecified support needs. It is easier to for instance hire someone bound to a wheelchair, as it is easier to predict what sort of accomodations they might need. The support needs for various adhd or autistic persons might vary a lot, hence just stating this is not helpfull in a work application process. Knowing the neurodivergency is usefull for medical professionals, as that help them put behaviors into context that they are equiped to inform their decissions. But it is the support needs (or lack thereof) that is valuable for the laymen to know about, and here the language is underdeveloped.
I notice a lot of demonstrated privilege in social media (Facebook, particularly). Things like "I must have dino nuggets" to me equates to an ad, and the suggestion that ND is a good thing only for those who are able to fulfill their "neuro-spicy" (a term I personally find diminutive) fixations. Creating programs and public support for ND people is helpful but unfortunately access will ultimately go to those who may be better off already without any support. It's also a label one can abuse to claim to be "diverse" or "inclusive" without much concern outside of personal status. The ND movement should focus on saving lives. To stop the mistreatment, bullying, and poor job evaluations of ND people that too often lead to self-termination. There cannot be a barrier to access, such as the cost of a professional diagnosis, for those who are impoverished. Unfortunately, few in the greater community and even some ND communities feel this way.
You must be chronically online then because most people who identify with the term neurodivergent are very much for advocating about the actual issues at hand,although, yeah, how dare people create programs that can be used by people if they aren't the UTMOST at risk. Anybody wjo isn't actively dying definitely doesn't need help. Makes sense. This is obtuse.
The nd movement is more than nd tiktoks and shorts. I feel that algorithms have distanced neurodivergent from it's political roots (suggesting that neurotypical is just a construction of a normative set of neurotypes that are always accomodated for) but social media greatly distorts how neurodivergence is viewed. Like neurospicy was a in joke until allistic people heard it and showed up in a infantilizing song. Then again social media distorts (and censors) all sorts if advocacy so that's not new.
I think the real problem here, as with most challenging problems, it's people want it to be black or white. Humans are complicated, it's never black or white, it's always more shades of gray than we can possibly imagine. People also want to hold a model and insist it it's some sort or sacred reality, it's not. Both models can be true and best, in given circumstances, for a given individual. Both are just models, not reality. They are overly simplified ways of describing something extremely complex that we don't even fully understand. They are the map, not the train. If you want to get from Manchester to Cardiff use an AA road map. If you want to climb Ben Nevis use an OS map. Both maps are very different and both are valid, both however are only useful in the right context. The same is true for models of disability. Both can be useful, both have merit, both can motivate us to improve the lives of those suffering, neither is ultimate truth handed down by God, both have their flaws and limitations.
Thank you for taking this up, I'm looking forward to have the time to get into what you point out. I've been in and out of the sphere (autistic dx'ed socialworker) so it's very relevant
The disability rights movement distinguishes impairment from disability. Even if they say they're okay with disability, they don't challenge the medical concept of impairment.
Probably because it doesn't need challenging. I am on the autism spectrum and am unable to read social cues or understand certain types of verbal information - I have a social communication impairment. It exists regardless of the environment, even if it is being accommodated so that it doesn't disable me in that moment. The fact that I constantly need the accommodation to not be disabled is proof of the impairment. The impairment doesn't just disappear once I get accommodations, otherwise I wouldn't need said accommodations anymore.
Some of you need to start giving a crap about other disabled folks and it really shows. That's the problem with 'neurodiversity', yall are pretending this isn't a disability rights issue.
6:00 its not fair or accurate to say that science is about "certainty". Science is a process that leads, by replication, to a current working consensus that is *by definition* not certain, and is subject to constant scrutiny. Its the opposite of what you're describing, which is a symptom of institutional inertia and the us living in a selfish post Brexit wasteland having voted for the end of welfare for 15 years straight. Also, omg I'm sick of "community". The "Scientific community" the "Autistic community" the "Immigrant community" etc etc 🤦...we don't all know each other, we often have more differences than similarities, and many of us disagree on fundamentals. That's not a community. I think you mean the vocal online consensus. Very interesting video tho . Also: "dividing people into categories" 🤦 what, like amputee and not? Crazy fascists that they are tsk tsk 🤦. Science DESCRIBES. People discriminate.
i've have total (multisensory) aphantasia, and something called sdam (severe deficient autobiographical memory) that is closely tied to aphatasia. its the neurodiversity that's least spoken about and apparently discovered as an actual thing only around 10 years ago,.noone diagnosed me, its something you know the first moment you hear someone mentions it, it was one of the strongest self insight moment of life like, being hit with that freaking hammer in your head most ppl can probably "imagine". i actually.. cant because my brain does't have the ability to. but at least i know now its a fact. .i probably have more neurodiversities, some relatively low hyperactivity adhd for sure but at this point its's literally whatever :p but the damned aphantasia, realizing it made me aware why i truly felt different, shapeless, and none all my life. so many time you want to watch something related to it you mostly see ppl turning the thing into some "exciting curiosity" for geeks bla bla, go somewhere the sun doesnt shine plz, or to the secret cow level from diablo games so i can seal you all away there, say one magic formula "there is no cow level" and it s gone, i cant "imagine " it it but i will try turn things into an even better multi layered word alchemy now, and make even better weirdo photography than ever, and a few other fun things :p but aphantasia should be talked more about, a lot more, from perspective of people who actually deal with it. i've accepted it now, it is a deprivation, it is sad and scary, and i understood my inner fear of all deprivation in general a lot ,cant change how my brain is wired so its another realisation to move on with. literally whatever now :p
I thought 56 minutes sounded long ... now I want to hear the half hour you edited out 😅. Seriously, good stuff. I'm particularly intrigued by your "3rd line in the sand" viz. narcissists ... I've encountered some, and man, I just can't with those guys. others ("NTs") seem less affected. I wonder if you have any insights here: are autists and narcissists anti-particles?
Neurodiversity has little to do with autism. It has a much broader group of disordered folks in the group now. Using it is very nebulous as to what it means for each specific person.
For me, I don't necessarily hate being autistic, but at 26, I would goddamn love a do over. I sure as fuck would not have hidden my feminine traits. God, closet life sucks!
I still don't get the distinction between "person first" and "identity first." I have no preference between the two. For whatever reason, I find the noun "autist: disconcerting. It just feels wrong to me.
I responded, but apparently we're not allowed by TH-cam to call out the BS that is person first language. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis was debunked a long time ago because the language we use doesn't really change the way that we think. We can change the language if it doesn't reflect how we think at any time. Some languages allow for the modifiers to go before the object and some put the modifiers after the object. It doesn't make Spanish more respectful than English as both the modifier and object are going to be in the brain at the same time.
Person first language makes little sense, as there is no abstract and separate thing -"an autism". We are dealing with people and personal experience, thus "an autistic person" it is.
This reminds me of the quote "dont identify witht that that kills you" its usually used in refrence to mental illnesses but it does have its place for things like autism both for the cases where itd be better for you to push through your deficits and for trying to find cures for the cases where the Divergence harms the person or the society
I recently discovered that I may be autistic at a rather advanced age. But I have also been a proud individualist my entire life. This "neurodiversity" language seems overwhelmingly collectivist and strength-in-mutuality in nature, and I am falling off of it very, very hard. OF COURSE I appreciate being able to recontextualize the struggles in the whole course of my life as not just me "being weird". OF COURSE recognizing that others may have discovered solutions to problems I thought were only my own is quite encouraging and revealing. But we don't even know what the hell autism is. How about we slow down with all this identity politics?
Not even knowing what autism is seems more like a call to slow down with the classic medical model and further embrace the social model -- what you seem to be calling "identity politics." We may not know what autism is, but we know the many ways it may manifest and affect people -- and thus ways to accept and accommodate.
"Slow down with the identity politics" in response to the term neurodivergent is like saying "let's slow down with the war politics" to the label change of shellshock to PTSD
I would ask what reservations you have with the idea of collectivism. As far as "strength in mutuality," I find it to be very much the opposite: strength in diversity. That's perhaps more true in the ND community than any other given a strong bent for individual autonomy.
When you say "identity politics" do you mean things like the dreaded feminism? And what about anti-racism? That's politics based on identity. And Black equality? And Queer liberation? All politics is about identity. The power of politics though, is that it's optional. If you don't want to join, don't join, nobody is checking your membership card.
The inherent burden on themselves, potential risk to others, and general lived experience--that about sums it up for me as well, when it comes to defining whether something is a disorder or not. Pathological = A condition causing abnormal and serious suffering and /or problems that a person is unable to correct by him/herself (my own definition).
I may be wrong, and frankly, I'd be glad to be, but isn't neurodiversity mostly excluded from society ? If so, why would we want to include more people in the excluded community ? Including in exclusion makes no sense to me. I'm not arguing that we should or shouldn't do it, but I genuienly struggle to understand the logic. Assuming we are talking inclusion in a social sense and not medical. I mean, I'm fine with including more people or "types" of neurodiversity, I just don't see the point of it if the end is inclusion into exclusion. Maybe we should first think about getting neurodiversity to a neutral position in society before expanding the neurodiverse social construct ? Whether I'm wrong or not, for me, can be considered "neurodiverse" any brain (or person with a brain /j) with a functional divergence from a "normal" or "typical" brain. Probably only permanent divergences ? Wether you are born with it or not is not important to me as long as the divergence occured at some point and is not going back to "normal" after a few days or so. I tend to try to stick to definitions as much as possible, wich might be a mistake (idk). But really, to me, neurodiverse or not, if you like to claim yourself neurodiverse, for whatever reason (as long as it's not malignant) that's fine. Especially if it helps you in any way shape or form. Those are my current thoughts hope it helps the discussion. PS : (I don't know anything, Jon Snow is a cousin)
When two lines separate and go in different directions, they diverge. They are divergent. Neurodivergent means diverging from the typical, or normal. This can be good or bad and is usually a combination of both. However, we can't expect the majority (neurotypicals) to adjust their behavior to accommodate us (the minority). We must adjust so that we fit into the neurotypical world. If we can't adjust, that is a measure of our disability. That's why autism is considered a disability. This has nothing to do with a person's worth as a human being. It only pertains to certain abilities for which SOME autistic people lack or struggle with. Science can only define the condition of autism by observable behaviours, as outlined in the ICD or DSM. There has to be certain objective criteria by which to judge whether a person is autistic or not. It's not like gender identity where it's whatever a person says or feels they are. I hope someday science will find actual physical differences in the brains of autistics that set them apart from neurotypicals. Until that day, the diagnosis must depend on the autist's described subjective experience and observed behaviour.
I'm sorry, but when someone says "the majority shouldn't adjust to autistics because we're a minority" what I hear is "hearing people shouldn't have to learn sign language and provide visual ques to accommodate deaf people because they're the minority"
@@MakiPcr Exactly right. Hearing people should not have to learn sign language, except for those few who dedicate themselves to helping them. The general public should not have to learn sign language.
@@jbr84tx crap, my analogy doesn't work if you think physically disabled people do not deserve rights. Do you also think wheelchair ramps shouldn't be a thing, as people with mobility issues are a minority and should accommodate to the majority?
@@jbr84tx what happened to my comment? Was it deleted because I think it's wrong to isolate deaf people from general society unless they are forced to learn to talk with words?
@@MakiPcr When I am communicating with a deaf person, I use the written word. I use paper and pen, or typing. This makes it easy. Should all Americans have to learn Spanish because a minority of people in the USA don't speak English?
The crux of your viewpoint hinges on the assumption that both human life has intrinsic value, and that every human holds equal value. This just isn't the case for either.
@@youssefhafid504 You know if you want the world to be a nicer place, why don't you start with yourself and not spit accusations and rhetoric the moment someone tells you no.
Another thing that really irritates me about some people is that when you know you shouldn't have to a child should not have to tell a mother that I need you to be on my side and stuff and instead of being on somebody else's a child shouldn't have to do that that should be automatic it should be like co-pilot you know how to to be a decent mother quit being immature and wrong and same thing with my husband I want my husband to sit there and say well I'm going to stick up for my wife because because this is the right thing to do
You have very good insights into how life really works. What makes for a satisfying individual lived experience is finding the intersection of what you enjoy doing, what you are good at doing, and what people appreciate enough to reward you for. Acceptance and accommodation can make this easier, but you still have to find the path.
Someone with a personality disorder is first and foremost someone with complex PTSD. Their traits grew out of an attempt at survival. I think it is hypocritical to care and advocate for all of the people with PTSD that were able to survive their life circumstances with their empathy intact, and then turn towards people with NPD and ASPD with discrimination and stigma. We are all responsible for our own behavior. If we do bad things, there are (or should be) undesirable consequences. But that doesn’t mean their lives should be considered worthless or less than. No one’s diagnoses excuses their bad behavior, it just explains it. Accepting people with NPD and ASPD does not have to look like tolerating abuse. That line in the sand has a lot of nuance to it, but I stand by it.
I don’t think “neurodiversity” should be wholly considered good or bad or neutral. It’s just a concept about how our brains are all different. Some of them, in ways that can change, and others in ways that cannot change. Our brains have plasticity, they are very changing by our life experiences.
The whole point of neurodiversity is that it means a diverse group of people. It's meant to be broad. Like you wouldn't be able to call it diversity at all if it was only describing one or two groups. That's the whole point, bringing socially isolated groups together.
Yes. Neurodiversity is a biological fact of human population. Human population is neurodiverse. Historically, people have idealized normal as not merely descriptive of average, but what people ought to be like. Neurodivergence refers to those tho significantly diverge from this idealized normal, which is then called neurotypicality. The ultimate goal is to eliminate false binaries and dichotomies. Eliminate hierarchies of people that leads to marginalization.
@@HarryPotter-kb7we Right, but when the divergence is so extreme as to be called a disorder, such people are in a separate category from those whose neurodivergence is minimal or not extreme.
@@jbr84tx Development is a complex, interdynamic process that's influenced by many variables, like genetics, environment, adverse events, reactions and experiences.
It's not autism that's disordered or pathological. It's the things that negatively impacted development. Autism is simply a pattern of variation in developmental trajectory.
By saying autism is a disorder, it's implied the person's entire neurodevelopment is disordered. This makes invisible any positive or neutral differences between autistic and non autistic. It'd be more accurate to say there are autism related disorders, which are also not completely inherent to the individual, but relative to the individual-environment fit.
I think it all boils down to "how the hell do we accommodate neurotypicals so that they accommodate us". Like, I fully agree with you, we celebrate the positives, we take what's neutral as is, and we offer support to overcome the negatives. Isn't that how it is? And what we want 'the majority of people' to understand? So how do we get them to understand it? The proverbial line in the sand should be drawn in regards to support needs more than diagnosis itself.
But also (and this is my biggest frustration pain of all) I wish people in general saw each other as someone that can contribute something to their lives and viceversa, not as either "charity cases" or as "master manipulators". An interdependence model, if you wish. Neurotypicals have A LOT to learn from neurodivergents, is my belief.
Thank you for the video.
I have strong ADHD and my social circles are majority autistic and virtually all neurodiverse - ADHD, OCD, etc. I have experienced autistic people being adamant that I am autistic because of my intense and excited interests (I consider the idea very carefully and thoroughly, but I don't find it at all likely that I'm autistic personally, just strong ADHD), and some others have othered me or even been inherently suspicious of me because I'm not autistic, as if I'm on a different team of existence. That's mostly people who make a point to primarily interact with other autistic people. And I love how much community autistic people are able to achieve with each other, but it's so important to remember that neurotypical people aren't the only ones who ought to respect people who are different from themselves.
As an AuDHDer myself that last line is pure gold. Double empathy goes both ways.
Yeah, this, most of my friends happen to be neurodivergent in different ways, cause they are where the people with the patience and apriciation for my autistic traits, both best friends have ADHD, wife of one had AuDHD like me, and my longest friendship is with another Autist.... We tend to group togeather due to our communication issues, and our habit to question weird behavior less.... But yeah, you cant demand understanding and accomodation, if you are not willing to offer the same.
My friendships work, cause we are all very accomodating no matter if we get why its a need for the other ot not. No judgment.
But I would never base who I befriend based on their diagnosis....some people I get along great and are amazing at accomodating are NT too!
And adhd and autism have a massiv overlap one can share a lot of traits without having the same diagnosis... And yes turning diskrimination around never is the answer
As a(18yo) guy with autism, I have a friend group consisting of friends I’ve ‘amassed’ at different points of my life. Either teachers matched me with someone, or someone approached me. I know one of my friends is an AuDHD’er. He had his diagnosis early in life and he has been very open about it from pretty early on, before I got my diagnosis aged 16 (nearly 17). I suspect another friend of mine could be autistic as well. He has very specific interests and is rather socially awkward like me (though not all autistic people are… my AuDHD friend is not. Not when looking at it from my lens, at least). I suspect he may be an undiagnosed case of autism. As for my third friend in the friend group… I don’t really ‘suspect’ any sort of neurodiversity. But he can be quirky and have the most random and stupid (in a fun way) ideas.
... except the neurotypicals have the entirety of our culture behind them, patting them on the back at every turn and assuring them that they are the 'normal' ones. Autistic people don't have that. Do you not see the huge difference here?
If an autist is disrespectful to a neurotypical it's an isolated experience, and the neurotypical can simply avoid that person. Meanwhile the autist has to deal with that very same experience on a regular basis with pretty much every group of people he ever has to interact with, which he can't just escape from (unless he is privileged enough to be able to work from home).
It's really backwards to blame autistic people for an attitude they are forced to adopt due to neurotypicals' doing. That's like blaming women for being paranoid about men, or black people for being mistrustful of white people, or queer people about cishets.
@@DaveGrean I understand where you're coming from, and on a systemic level I agree with a lot of that. But I'm talking about someone with one form of neurodiversity being a jerk to someone with a different form of neurodiversity interpersonally. I've only really experienced this in a situation where a microcommunity is basically all neurodiverse and mostly autistic, and I think it's sad for people who face systemic ablism for their neurodiversity to take it out on other neurodiverse people around them whose neurodiversity is less represented in a microcommunity. We should be able to work together and treat each other interpersonally with the acceptance the larger world has denied all of us.
Edit to say that the situation reminds me a lot of lesbians who don't accept bisexual women. I'm a bisexual woman, and I have experienced lesbians erasing my bisexuality in a queer space, either saying that I must be a lesbian if I'm with a woman at the time or that I'm straight if I'm with a man. We should be able to work together for acceptance of queerness even if our queerness takes different forms, just like we should be able to work together to promote acceptance of neurodiversity even if our neurodiversity takes different forms
I wouldn't ever normally wade through an hour of a talking head, but your delivery, pace, vocabulary and polemic development made it a real pleasure to listen to (while I shouted in the kitchen and shook my fist at the sky and nodded in agreement, not at at the same time...)
I would add that your keen awareness of the history of the ND community, and the demarcations between a pathology and an identity, were very carefully expressed - and your clear empathy with others, and willingness to open your head to the various lived experiences of ND people, allows this to be a "thought-starter" of a video. Not a thought-ender..! I would watch more of the same.
From a production point of view, I really appreciate the simple, pared back style and no flashy graphics, some nice cut-aways to camera 2, I was looking to see if you were reading a script, but I don't think you were! Maybe you have header notes to prompt you, I dunno, but I could not talk for that long about something so complex without a plan, probably in the shape of a tree, and with different colours for branches. But that's just me. Your presentation just flowed so well.
Love how it turned out also. I hear you there justinwebb. Likely a speech outline with topic points to touch on and cover. Due to the time stamp. Not too structured, but in a way balanced. As a late diagnose ADHDer am netural towards my condition. More interested in working on my own framework of who I am in connection to my status. For it is a part of me and important to know theyself.
If you want to avoid the black and white dichotomy of the medical model vs the social model there is the biopsychosocial model, which has a social element without reducing it to that entirely.
Still problematic. Impairment itself needs to be problematized, not only disability. A difference can be impairment in one social context, and be an advantage or neutral trait in another. Impairment is not a natural, biomedical fact.
There are so many nuances to consider. I appreciate the way you explained this.
The "all neurodivergence is good" type of thing always rubbed me wrong. I'm schizotypal, and the running assumption among geneticists is that we provide an important role for humanity (roughly speaking, being shamans, elaboration would take hours), and that evolution is *tolerating* schizophrenia so that we can be around. That is, the overall payoff for species fitness for "have schizotypals, and also schizophrenics" is higher than for "have no or very very few schizotypals and schizophrenics".
My issues are almost entirely shit life syndrome, to which we're more prone because society in its current incarnation doesn't really vibe with us, I imagine it's somewhat similar with autists. On top of that, though, there's also shit lot syndrome and you don't want to wish that on anyone. Stuff you can't grow yourself out of.
The solution is often found in the problem. The only reason people get ABA is that there is nothing else available. I've never had ABA, but I have a lot of the same problems, so I've been asking around for things that might help. You get rid of ABA by replacing it. Part of the description of this new therapy should read, "...helps people recover from the negative effects of ABA." As I said, I never had ABA, so the need for this therapy will not go away once ABA is done away with.
I like "I'm neurodiverse" as a prompt for people to treat me like an individual with personal needs without needing to dive into my various diagnosis.
While I agree that being neurodivergent shouldn't be viewed as something completely positive, some neurodivergent people like myself have had a few positive experiences with being neurodivergent as well as having negative experiences with being neurodivergent. Therefore if a cure for autism did exist, then it should be completely up to the autistic person to decide on whether or not he wants to get rid of his autism, since I personally still would not choose to get rid of my autism since there are things about my autism that I really enjoy even though I've also had negative experiences with having autism.
The thing is, how do you get rid of how your brain is build?! I woule not object to a med reducing overstimulation, but truely getting rid of autism is not only impossible, but also wouls mean to change everything about how we think and feel and that is very objectable
@@SingingSealRiana , so what your saying is that I would seize being a purple horse if I changed my brain in order to become neurotypical. I agree. I would seize being me. But I would be a different type of me. Not that I would want to seize being a purple horse.
How would they choose if they were aborted?
@@SingingSealRiana There is no 'cure' for autism. From my observation and interaction with autistic people, most would rather NOT be autistic. They consider it a handicap. Yes, there are positive aspects to it, but for a lot of autistics, the drawbacks outweigh the positives. I personally would rather not be autistic, but I make the best of my talents and work around my deficits as much as I can.
Thomas, you did a great job articulating different aspects of Neurodiversity. Thank you so much for doing what you do! You are helping me.
Been in a relationship with my autistic boyfriend for a little over a month, currently going through his first shutdown with me and your content has been very helpful in identifying what is happening and what to do. Thank you for the info and keep it up!
Well said Thomas, great work, articulate in presentation, well thought through. Interesting perspective, plenty to think about. Thank you Yorkshire Lad.
Thank you for tour careful handling of this topic. You’ve clearly thought a lot about it and made a lot of good points. I think you’ve put your finger on a problem we need to talk about.
I think a central vocabulary issue is the confused vocabulary between neurotype, and support needs. To be *diagnosed* "autistic" you need to have both. The support needs can be adressed, and might change and even no longer be present. However someone once diagnosed autistic are keeping their "diagnosis" even if they no longer receive any support.. I can see practical reasons for this, but I think a lot of the understanding problems we see steem from this.
I can see a lot of reasons I would be sceptical to employ someone with unspecified support needs. It is easier to for instance hire someone bound to a wheelchair, as it is easier to predict what sort of accomodations they might need. The support needs for various adhd or autistic persons might vary a lot, hence just stating this is not helpfull in a work application process. Knowing the neurodivergency is usefull for medical professionals, as that help them put behaviors into context that they are equiped to inform their decissions. But it is the support needs (or lack thereof) that is valuable for the laymen to know about, and here the language is underdeveloped.
I love this so much! Very well put!
I notice a lot of demonstrated privilege in social media (Facebook, particularly). Things like "I must have dino nuggets" to me equates to an ad, and the suggestion that ND is a good thing only for those who are able to fulfill their "neuro-spicy" (a term I personally find diminutive) fixations. Creating programs and public support for ND people is helpful but unfortunately access will ultimately go to those who may be better off already without any support. It's also a label one can abuse to claim to be "diverse" or "inclusive" without much concern outside of personal status. The ND movement should focus on saving lives. To stop the mistreatment, bullying, and poor job evaluations of ND people that too often lead to self-termination. There cannot be a barrier to access, such as the cost of a professional diagnosis, for those who are impoverished. Unfortunately, few in the greater community and even some ND communities feel this way.
You must be chronically online then because most people who identify with the term neurodivergent are very much for advocating about the actual issues at hand,although, yeah, how dare people create programs that can be used by people if they aren't the UTMOST at risk. Anybody wjo isn't actively dying definitely doesn't need help. Makes sense. This is obtuse.
The nd movement is more than nd tiktoks and shorts. I feel that algorithms have distanced neurodivergent from it's political roots (suggesting that neurotypical is just a construction of a normative set of neurotypes that are always accomodated for) but social media greatly distorts how neurodivergence is viewed. Like neurospicy was a in joke until allistic people heard it and showed up in a infantilizing song. Then again social media distorts (and censors) all sorts if advocacy so that's not new.
@@aff77141Your reading of the comment is reductive and obtuse. Saying we should do x,y and z does not mean we should not do a,b and c.
@@aff77141 You proved this point.
@@nonsequitor But it's far easier and less impactful of ourselves to avoid anything of substance while waving the ND banner high.
I think the real problem here, as with most challenging problems, it's people want it to be black or white. Humans are complicated, it's never black or white, it's always more shades of gray than we can possibly imagine. People also want to hold a model and insist it it's some sort or sacred reality, it's not.
Both models can be true and best, in given circumstances, for a given individual. Both are just models, not reality. They are overly simplified ways of describing something extremely complex that we don't even fully understand. They are the map, not the train. If you want to get from Manchester to Cardiff use an AA road map. If you want to climb Ben Nevis use an OS map. Both maps are very different and both are valid, both however are only useful in the right context. The same is true for models of disability. Both can be useful, both have merit, both can motivate us to improve the lives of those suffering, neither is ultimate truth handed down by God, both have their flaws and limitations.
@@serenitygoodwyn i totally agree
Such a good video
Thank you for taking this up, I'm looking forward to have the time to get into what you point out. I've been in and out of the sphere (autistic dx'ed socialworker) so it's very relevant
The disability rights movement distinguishes impairment from disability. Even if they say they're okay with disability, they don't challenge the medical concept of impairment.
Probably because it doesn't need challenging. I am on the autism spectrum and am unable to read social cues or understand certain types of verbal information - I have a social communication impairment. It exists regardless of the environment, even if it is being accommodated so that it doesn't disable me in that moment. The fact that I constantly need the accommodation to not be disabled is proof of the impairment. The impairment doesn't just disappear once I get accommodations, otherwise I wouldn't need said accommodations anymore.
Some of you need to start giving a crap about other disabled folks and it really shows. That's the problem with 'neurodiversity', yall are pretending this isn't a disability rights issue.
6:00 its not fair or accurate to say that science is about "certainty". Science is a process that leads, by replication, to a current working consensus that is *by definition* not certain, and is subject to constant scrutiny. Its the opposite of what you're describing, which is a symptom of institutional inertia and the us living in a selfish post Brexit wasteland having voted for the end of welfare for 15 years straight. Also, omg I'm sick of "community". The "Scientific community" the "Autistic community" the "Immigrant community" etc etc 🤦...we don't all know each other, we often have more differences than similarities, and many of us disagree on fundamentals. That's not a community. I think you mean the vocal online consensus.
Very interesting video tho .
Also: "dividing people into categories" 🤦 what, like amputee and not? Crazy fascists that they are tsk tsk 🤦. Science DESCRIBES. People discriminate.
Very informative video. Thank you once again, Thomas 😊
Que vídeo maneiro. Parabéns.
Such a well put essay wow
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
This is the one to share with others who want to know about autism. @11:15: Us Autists!
i've have total (multisensory) aphantasia, and something called sdam (severe deficient autobiographical memory) that is closely tied to aphatasia. its the neurodiversity that's least spoken about and apparently discovered as an actual thing only around 10 years ago,.noone diagnosed me, its something you know the first moment you hear someone mentions it, it was one of the strongest self insight moment of life like, being hit with that freaking hammer in your head most ppl can probably "imagine". i actually.. cant because my brain does't have the ability to. but at least i know now its a fact. .i probably have more neurodiversities, some relatively low hyperactivity adhd for sure but at this point its's literally whatever :p but the damned aphantasia, realizing it made me aware why i truly felt different, shapeless, and none all my life. so many time you want to watch something related to it you mostly see ppl turning the thing into some "exciting curiosity" for geeks bla bla, go somewhere the sun doesnt shine plz, or to the secret cow level from diablo games so i can seal you all away there, say one magic formula "there is no cow level" and it s gone, i cant "imagine " it it but i will try turn things into an even better multi layered word alchemy now, and make even better weirdo photography than ever, and a few other fun things :p but aphantasia should be talked more about, a lot more, from perspective of people who actually deal with it. i've accepted it now, it is a deprivation, it is sad and scary, and i understood my inner fear of all deprivation in general a lot ,cant change how my brain is wired so its another realisation to move on with. literally whatever now :p
what is SUI?
I thought 56 minutes sounded long ... now I want to hear the half hour you edited out 😅. Seriously, good stuff. I'm particularly intrigued by your "3rd line in the sand" viz. narcissists ... I've encountered some, and man, I just can't with those guys. others ("NTs") seem less affected. I wonder if you have any insights here: are autists and narcissists anti-particles?
Neurodiversity has little to do with autism. It has a much broader group of disordered folks in the group now. Using it is very nebulous as to what it means for each specific person.
For me, I don't necessarily hate being autistic, but at 26, I would goddamn love a do over. I sure as fuck would not have hidden my feminine traits. God, closet life sucks!
I still don't get the distinction between "person first" and "identity first." I have no preference between the two. For whatever reason, I find the noun "autist: disconcerting. It just feels wrong to me.
I responded, but apparently we're not allowed by TH-cam to call out the BS that is person first language. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis was debunked a long time ago because the language we use doesn't really change the way that we think. We can change the language if it doesn't reflect how we think at any time.
Some languages allow for the modifiers to go before the object and some put the modifiers after the object. It doesn't make Spanish more respectful than English as both the modifier and object are going to be in the brain at the same time.
It's impersonal and cold, like autistic people aren't human
Person first language makes little sense, as there is no abstract and separate thing -"an autism". We are dealing with people and personal experience, thus "an autistic person" it is.
Psychology is a soft science.
its a complex web i give you that
Totally, it took me awhile to sift through all the terminology...
@ThomasHenley also there is a lot of emotions surrounding the subjects it can make talking about it very heated
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I liked the video.
Thanks! :D
This reminds me of the quote "dont identify witht that that kills you" its usually used in refrence to mental illnesses but it does have its place for things like autism both for the cases where itd be better for you to push through your deficits and for trying to find cures for the cases where the Divergence harms the person or the society
I recently discovered that I may be autistic at a rather advanced age. But I have also been a proud individualist my entire life. This "neurodiversity" language seems overwhelmingly collectivist and strength-in-mutuality in nature, and I am falling off of it very, very hard. OF COURSE I appreciate being able to recontextualize the struggles in the whole course of my life as not just me "being weird". OF COURSE recognizing that others may have discovered solutions to problems I thought were only my own is quite encouraging and revealing. But we don't even know what the hell autism is. How about we slow down with all this identity politics?
Not even knowing what autism is seems more like a call to slow down with the classic medical model and further embrace the social model -- what you seem to be calling "identity politics." We may not know what autism is, but we know the many ways it may manifest and affect people -- and thus ways to accept and accommodate.
"Slow down with the identity politics" in response to the term neurodivergent is like saying "let's slow down with the war politics" to the label change of shellshock to PTSD
I would ask what reservations you have with the idea of collectivism. As far as "strength in mutuality," I find it to be very much the opposite: strength in diversity. That's perhaps more true in the ND community than any other given a strong bent for individual autonomy.
You’re welcome to slow down with it if it’s not of interest to you. I personally find it interesting
When you say "identity politics" do you mean things like the dreaded feminism? And what about anti-racism? That's politics based on identity. And Black equality? And Queer liberation?
All politics is about identity. The power of politics though, is that it's optional. If you don't want to join, don't join, nobody is checking your membership card.
The inherent burden on themselves, potential risk to others, and general lived experience--that about sums it up for me as well, when it comes to defining whether something is a disorder or not. Pathological = A condition causing abnormal and serious suffering and /or problems that a person is unable to correct by him/herself (my own definition).
I may be wrong, and frankly, I'd be glad to be, but isn't neurodiversity mostly excluded from society ? If so, why would we want to include more people in the excluded community ? Including in exclusion makes no sense to me. I'm not arguing that we should or shouldn't do it, but I genuienly struggle to understand the logic. Assuming we are talking inclusion in a social sense and not medical. I mean, I'm fine with including more people or "types" of neurodiversity, I just don't see the point of it if the end is inclusion into exclusion. Maybe we should first think about getting neurodiversity to a neutral position in society before expanding the neurodiverse social construct ?
Whether I'm wrong or not, for me, can be considered "neurodiverse" any brain (or person with a brain /j) with a functional divergence from a "normal" or "typical" brain. Probably only permanent divergences ? Wether you are born with it or not is not important to me as long as the divergence occured at some point and is not going back to "normal" after a few days or so.
I tend to try to stick to definitions as much as possible, wich might be a mistake (idk). But really, to me, neurodiverse or not, if you like to claim yourself neurodiverse, for whatever reason (as long as it's not malignant) that's fine. Especially if it helps you in any way shape or form.
Those are my current thoughts hope it helps the discussion.
PS : (I don't know anything, Jon Snow is a cousin)
Yorkshire pudding 🍮
Hello.
Mr Austin getting that first comment in haha
When two lines separate and go in different directions, they diverge. They are divergent. Neurodivergent means diverging from the typical, or normal. This can be good or bad and is usually a combination of both. However, we can't expect the majority (neurotypicals) to adjust their behavior to accommodate us (the minority). We must adjust so that we fit into the neurotypical world. If we can't adjust, that is a measure of our disability. That's why autism is considered a disability. This has nothing to do with a person's worth as a human being. It only pertains to certain abilities for which SOME autistic people lack or struggle with. Science can only define the condition of autism by observable behaviours, as outlined in the ICD or DSM. There has to be certain objective criteria by which to judge whether a person is autistic or not. It's not like gender identity where it's whatever a person says or feels they are. I hope someday science will find actual physical differences in the brains of autistics that set them apart from neurotypicals. Until that day, the diagnosis must depend on the autist's described subjective experience and observed behaviour.
I'm sorry, but when someone says "the majority shouldn't adjust to autistics because we're a minority" what I hear is "hearing people shouldn't have to learn sign language and provide visual ques to accommodate deaf people because they're the minority"
@@MakiPcr Exactly right. Hearing people should not have to learn sign language, except for those few who dedicate themselves to helping them. The general public should not have to learn sign language.
@@jbr84tx crap, my analogy doesn't work if you think physically disabled people do not deserve rights.
Do you also think wheelchair ramps shouldn't be a thing, as people with mobility issues are a minority and should accommodate to the majority?
@@jbr84tx what happened to my comment? Was it deleted because I think it's wrong to isolate deaf people from general society unless they are forced to learn to talk with words?
@@MakiPcr When I am communicating with a deaf person, I use the written word. I use paper and pen, or typing. This makes it easy. Should all Americans have to learn Spanish because a minority of people in the USA don't speak English?
Suddenly i an outspoken conservative is diagnosed and suddenly the world turns on Aspies.
The crux of your viewpoint hinges on the assumption that both human life has intrinsic value, and that every human holds equal value.
This just isn't the case for either.
I have seen many promote nurodivirsity, not one got back to me when I said I didn't associate normal diversity with good things.
Are you just trying to dog whistle racism here? By all means, just say the quiet part out loud.
Either way, a fairly brain dead take.
@@youssefhafid504 kinda proving my point, but ok.
@@anthonywalker6268 You're saying no one got back to you, well now you've got someone. What exactly is your point? Why are you a coward?
@@youssefhafid504 Your being vicious over politics. That's the problem.
@@youssefhafid504 You know if you want the world to be a nicer place, why don't you start with yourself and not spit accusations and rhetoric the moment someone tells you no.
Another thing that really irritates me about some people is that when you know you shouldn't have to a child should not have to tell a mother that I need you to be on my side and stuff and instead of being on somebody else's a child shouldn't have to do that that should be automatic it should be like co-pilot you know how to to be a decent mother quit being immature and wrong and same thing with my husband I want my husband to sit there and say well I'm going to stick up for my wife because because this is the right thing to do
Blind loyalty is not always the appropriate response. There is often compassion in offering resistance to someone else's desires.