Relationship OR Religion? Answering A Protestant Criticism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- Fr. John Mahfouz is the priest at St. Matthew Antiochian Orthodox Church in Torrance, California. Fr. John answers your questions that were submitted through TH-cam and Instagram.
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#easternorthodox #orthodoxchristian #protestant #protestantism #christianity #christian
I left Protestantism because it couldn’t offer me the spiritual life that I was looking for. I couldn’t go higher than I already was. I was at the peak to what it can offer me. Came to Orthodoxy and got baptized, and there is a lifetime worth and even an enternity to grow with God.
This is so true, coming out of Protestantism myself, there is such a wall that you hit, I just knew there had to be something more, there had to be something more than a stage and a rock band every Sunday, I feel that Protestantism misses the mark on spirituality and closeness with Christ that we see in the New Testament. I thank God every day that He brought me to Orthodoxy
Well said!!
Same. My thoughts exactly. Glory to God
I'm glad for you
That is an overgeneralization. Most protestant churches are not like that.
@@carmenanico2786 thank you :)
Catholicism is the prodigal son that never returned because of pride. Protestantism is the prodigal grandson that does not return because of pride. Come home to Orthodoxy ☦
Yes. I'm home! Became a catecumin yesterday and am so blessed my three sons came in with me : 13, 3 and 10 months
@@PrayersfromtheRedwoodForest congratulations!☦
It's a shame because so many Protestant churches are fallen, but the one I go to is extremely biblical and like no other Protestant church I have seen.
@@PrayersfromtheRedwoodForest May the holy trinity bless you and your family for returning to Christs church 🎉🙏🏾
Bruh not really
When you return to liturgy and what the fathers of the church teaches you, you start having a deeper relationship with Jesus and his church
I, a former Protestant, can vouch for that. I have a deeper relationship and more of a desire to worship the Lord and pray constantly, read God's word and learn more of what I was missing all this time..... learn about the way the monks, Saints, and martyrs lived their lives with such devotion to God.
This was a great question and answer. I audibly said "WOW" when you said that a lot of converts from Protestantism to Orthodoxy say they "hit a wall" spiritually. That is the exact phrasing I have used and my biggest struggle with the church I attend.
This is my Priest in the video, thank God. Are you anywhere near Torrance, CA? A high percentage of my parish are Protestant converts.
@@orthodox1717 I am not close to Torrance as I am in South Carolina, but its encouraging to know there are parishes out there with a lot of converts from protestantism.
@@NorthToSouthChannel tbh any OCA church is probably gonna be pretty convert heavy
Funny enough I am having more of a relationship now that I am in orthodoxy than when I was protestant. I'm not speaking on anyone's behalf, just my own. But I never really got why I needed to put in any effort if I was already saved. I, like many protestants, treated God like "fire insurance." So if I'm saved because I did the altar call, got dunked under water, and occasionally eat a cracker and drink some grape juice, and that's all I need to do, why should I even have a relationship? I stopped going to church for years because I just didn't see the point. And when I did occasionally force myself through those doors, all I saw were rock bands and pastors trying to be "hip" to attract more young people. But my heart yearned for God, though I couldn't tell you why. I was content to wallow in my sins with a forged fire insurance policy in my pocket. Luckily, I found orthodoxy and I'm learning to have a relationship with Christ in ways I never dreamed of.
same boat, so dope there’s someone out there that had the same feelings
Glory to God for guiding us home!
@@TisTheGhettoVids Same boat here, too. I always had difficult theological questions as a protestant kid, and left Christianity because it seemed shallow.
God welcomed me with open arms as soon as I turned back to Him, and the Holy Spirit guided me to Orthodoxy.
And I also use the word "dope," so we have a lot of parallels lol.
@@anond2015i wish i could give you a fist bump, that’s so sick!!!! Glory to God!
Thanks to God that I have found the true faith!
Glory to God!
It's insane the stories they tell...coming out of it myself. I've been incredibly blinded. Thank our Lord..I'm done there.
The liturgy was made for man, not man for the liturgy. Some Orthodox seem to teach the opposite. This is what is meant by the critique.
It's oxymoronic to claim any faith based on "once saved always saved" could possibly be a growing living relationship. No relationship operates in such a fashion. All relationships have "rules" or guidelines that govern said relationship.
I know right? Try telling your husband/wife "Once married, always married" with the implication that no matter what you do, you will always be married, and see how that goes 😂
@@UnworthySeraphim LOL.
I'm gonna used that.
romans 8 says otherwise.
I tried explaining the story of the prodical son. It's a perfect example of once saved always saved being false. Some think being grafted on through Christ as God's son means one can never loose salvation because that makes them God's son. But we see in the parable the prodigal son was considered dead by his father. His relationship as a son did not change but the father did consider him dead before he returned to him.
Agreed, to make matters worse, it's all intellectual. Being saved by faith alone is often defined as merely what a person thinks, not what they do. Well, using the marriage analogy, try telling your spouse the day we married I told you I love you, why do I need to show it in faithfulness.
As a former Protestant charismatic from childhood we're taught pretty early on that other forms of Christianity, especially the Catholic church, are wrong because their too ritualistic or idolatrous because of all the traditions, icons, relics etc
I consider myself atheist currently but recently have been finding myself not feeling fulfilled by the promises atheism makes for some sort of utopia of reason and rationality without God. And so I've been drawn gradually towards religion again, in doing so I've been drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy especially because of its history directly to Jesus and the Apostles, there's a weight and depth that its history provides - along side it's unchanging doctrine and structure - that I find appealing.
Unfortunately being gay is probably going to be the obstacle should I decide I want to pursue Orthdoxy
The church will still love you, do not think that being Gay is any different than any other sin. It is still lust of the flesh, which many Christian’s suffer from. In the eyes of God it is no worse than a lie. Do not let that deter you from having a relationship with him. Pray to him and he will answer you.
I am sure there are many who came to Orthodoxy in this condition. I have heard many testimonies of deliverance from that lifestyle, so I know God CAN take away that desire and restore a person.
Read about fr. Seraphim rose. He was a homosexual coming out of the heart of the free love movement, California. It's not about what we are now, it's about becoming what we actually are, what society and other traditions of the faith teach is that we are as human as we can be, Orthodoxy understands that we aren't living towards our original humanity until we live in the footsteps of Christ who was perfectly human and perfectly God.
Read Fr. Seraphim Rose!
Another great episode, but once again the most important part (which really resonated with me; so much that I just wrote some of it down) somehow seemed to be last. To humbly add-on to Father Mahfouz's point regarding change, if the Papacy by virtue of singular, expedient and infallible authority can more easily move Catholicism to heretical grounds, consider how easily and quickly Protestantism can do the same when it empowers INDIVIDUALS to create their own theology based on Sola Scriptura. Father Mahfouz's point that even within Orthodoxy we have had heretical teachings that fizzled out or don't take root because the slowness of change within Orthodoxy give the Holy Spirit time to allow truth to prevail within the Church is very very important point. Thank you, Father.
I never understood those that _left_ the Church claiming the relationship.
All i could think was "you were washed in his blood in baptism, sanctified by the spirit in confirmation, received forgiveness in the confessional, and ate of his body and blood in communion but it wasn't until you walked away from all of this that you had a relationship with our Lord?"
God Almighty Bless Our Beloved Lord Jesus Christ and His Tier One and Only, Holy, Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church. I Pray That The Hetrodox Learn The Ancient and Authentic Orthodox Faith Before It's Too Late.
A common argument I would used to have with Protestants back when I was a Protestant was usually in response to their " All you have to do is follow Christ,' or " just love one another.". I would always respond the same and say what does that look like? And they would always respond with one of the same Protestant tropes with no real explanation of what a Christian Life looks like. That's when I started looking at history.
I’ve always cringed at the whole concept of “relationship with Christ” that the West has promoted, so much so that it caused me to leave since I didn’t wanted to be associated under the same umbrella as them ( was born Orthodox but being the young rebellious adult I didn’t know how truly different it was )
“Relationship with Christ” sounds no different to my ears than a 6 year old saying they have an imaginary friend. It’s laughable…
COMMUNION, TRANSFORMATION, TRANSFIGURATION and THEOSIS to truly become Christ-like through ceaseless prayer, repentance and the therapeutic sacraments of the Church makes a whole lot more sense to me
Beautifully said 🙏🏼☦️
Every time somebody at my old Protestant church said It’s not a religion it’s a relationship I wanted to yell THEN WHY DOES JAMES EXPLAIN WHAT TRUE RELIGION IS IN HIS EPISTLE?
Jesus said if you reject him he rejects you...
@@RNWFoster I never said I rejected Christ, I think you’re reading into something that isn’t there my guy
Either way I’m back in the Orthodox Church, truly getting to know Christ and what he taught and I’m so happy that I am
Can you point me to this in scripture please? I’m starting to dig in deeper and a lot of the Bible is very confusing- I don’t know what an epistle is 😬🤷♀️
I am russian, baptized in orthodox church. But i was really turned out of orthodoxy because of all it's traditions like icons, candles and so on. I don't know why, i always was drawn to english language and through it i discovered protestantism. I liked the appeal of everyday looks, and focus on not some customs but on scripture. And they really helped me understand scripture. I listened to christian american appologetics and all sorts of christian channels you have in your english segment of youtube. But through grace of God i catched a thought, that "your own" understanding of scripture only leads to endless schism. The authority of the Church is essential to your humility. All those traditions church has are there for you to set you apart. Yes, there are priest, and there are commoners. And that is ok. You can live your life, but commitment to church, to your relatives, to your neighbours is what set you appart. All those small neighbourhoods you can call small churches/communities, but to connect all those small ones - there is one big Church. And through that big Church small communities can get connections, set apart their differences and establish Heavenly Kingdom around them, where people can unite under authority of Christ. Protestantism has it's own merit, but it only can get you so far. Claiming your own denomination for yourself is not the way of unity in Christ. Every protestant youtuber is bashing every other one for getting one sentence wrong. They are just ripping eachother's congregation apart.
Funny, how i am russian and become closer to russian orthodoxy, first through american protestants, and then through american nondenominationalists, and then through american orthodox youtubers. God, surely, has His way for everyone to get close to Him. Mine went through the atlantic ocean and then back home. But now i am convinced and have a lot of answers i can relay to russians. Because many russians have same problems i've had before.
I was for long one of those "relationship not religion" evangelicals, and tho the mantra still kinda resonates with me, ive been investigating orthodoxy lately and find its truth compelling and considering converting. The thing is, I find that the orthodox CAN truly claim to have a relationship with God, seeing how it can be lived out in daily life and not just for an hour or two each Sunday. If you asked me, there is the potential for being more than a religion, but Life itself. While the church has hierarchy structures and leadership, it doesn't feel so much like an 'organization' but rather an organism, that is the very body of Christ
Amen
Great video and lots of wisdom from Fr. I’d be curious to know what is the Orthodox Position on the current State of the church and accepting new members. Anyone looking into orthodox, you cannot pass the fact that there’s clearly an ethnic component to the religion. What is the route for someone that is not Balkan, Greek, Russian or middle eastern looking into the church?
Once saved, always saved is a lie straight from the adversary. I know for a fact. I lost my salvation the moment I turned my back the Lord. I never really agreed with it to begin with but when I came back to Christ in 2022 I knew I had messed up big time.
I loved Protestants until mu dad passed away and then I realized that they don’t have closing ceremony for the dead people. I grow up in Orthodox family and I’m baptized in Orthodox monastery, so my whole life I live like that, knowing that my father is Protestant (Evangelist) priest and accepting that. But now when he is dead , I’m concerning his path to Christ. I hope that somebody understand me 🙈
I understand
I am reading this and cannot fully understand the situation you find yourself in; however, I have many family members that are protestant so I can relate somewhat. While the dead no longer have time to repent we still have life and breath, to pray for them; that just maybe Christ will be merciful. Father Spirydon calls prayer for the dead "A supreme act of mercy" Don't ever lose HOPE! That is one of the pillars of our faith!!!
Pray for your dad. And ask Mary and the saints for intercession on his behalf.
I'm sure God will be as merciful as Divine Law allows. God is a lover of mankind.
Remember God is bound by rules like us.. he can have mercy
There is a ceremony. What you seem to be talking about is golden statues, long robes, icons, and idols of Christ and performative rituals for outward appearances. Yes, most Protestant churches don't have this. I say, good. Especially since God hates idolatry.
I'm a protestant but have nothing against orthodox and don't have the same criticisms. But you are correct that with so many denominations, there are a lot of heretical ones that have too much pride thinking they have it all figured out and that everyone else was wrong for the last 2000 years which is nonsense. I try to remember Proverbs 30 and to not "strain gnats and swallow camels" as the Lord said in Matthew 23. God even said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.” If we love the Lord, acknowledge our sin with repentance before His sacrifice on the cross, do well, and flee from further sin..will we also not be accepted?
The man declares, I am weary, O God;
I am weary, O God, and worn out.
Surely I am too stupid to be a man.
I have not the understanding of a man.
I have not learned wisdom,
nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.
What does it mean to love God?
@@bad_covfefe We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). You recognize like the thief on the cross (Luke 23:41) that we deserve the wrath of God for our moral failures, but God humbled Himself (Philippians 2) and Christ died for us while we were still sinners/His enemies (Romans 5:8). Truly understanding this love Christ displayed for us by dying for sinners, you humble yourself and repent of sin and love the Lord for this gracious act of mercy. You love God by keeping His commandments (John 14:15, 1 John 5:3), denying yourself and taking up your own cross after Him (Matthew 16:24), and loving your neighbor by doing the good works God prepared in advance for you to do (Ephesians 2:10). That's my short answer anyway. Whole books written on this.
While there are many ppl who use the relationship language who truly love the Lord and seek to serve Him, there are many others who treat their relationship with God akin to their dating relationships. There is whole level of entitlement and pride of being chosen by God and how they project onto God whatever they want Him to be. I've literally seen ppl say nonsense and claim God spoke to them and that they are so close to Him because of feelings etc. there were others who proclaimed themselves prophets and went to have girlfrieds. it's worlds away from the intimate relationship that the saints have with God in humility and real holiness. Our relationship with God is covenantal as in the Bible which the Protestants don't have due to the abandonment of sacraments and any relationship with God would mean profound repentance and a cleansing of the soul before it approaches God not the casual attitude that they have.
As a Catholic, I’m so glad to hear Protestants attacking Eastern Orthodoxy… actually I’m not! Wonderful response 👍
Mind blown. They claim it’s a relationship yet cease to behave how one would in a relationship. It takes works and effort from both sides. God always keeps up his side, what about you?
Can anyone inform me about pseudepigraphia?
Fr Stephen De Young has done some talks covering this I believe. I think he has a new book about the Apocrypha too.
2:25 I'm generalizing, of course, but the fear in protestant circles is that protestants could EASILY fall into the sins that Jesus accused the Pharisees of his day of: philosophizing about the scriptures and preventing or losing their faith (I've seen this happen), using "we have Abraham as our father" (ie, "I am a real Christian") as an excuse to not genuinely pursue God, etc.
Hence some of the obsession with innovation: they want to actively encounter God and avoid using leaning on externals take Him for granted. Unfortunately this means also being somewhat unmoored from history...
Protestants have swung into Hyper Grace, something that used to be considered heresy. They have left love and are on the attack because everything they have is based on their belief. It is weird because sin is considered covered by grace but if someone doesn’t agree with a theological issue (like the rapture, for example) then one never knew Jesus. It is a harsh and unforgiving place to be.
🙏🏾☦️
I have a question: When Catholics say Virgin Mary is the Mother of God the Son Daughter of God the Father the Spouse of God the Holy Spirit Why do they mean by this isn't that heretic
Read Luke.. and Go deep.. don't stay on the surface...
No. Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is indeed God. She isn't the mother of his divinity, but she is the mother of God because Jesus is God.
So no it is not heretical and makes logical sense.
Orthodox do NOT call Mary the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
@@dman7668 but what about the rest of the question? “Daughter of God” & “Spouse of the Holy Spirit”
@@jaycee6438
"St. Joseph was the husband of Mary in the common usage of the idea of marriage.
The pious custom of referring to the Holy Spirit as the spouse of Mary is a symbolic expression of Mary’s perpetual virginity and the virgin birth of Jesus. It is not meant in a literal manner but rather in terms of Mary’s singular devotion to God and unique relationship to the Trinity. It is similar to how religious sisters sometimes refer to Jesus as their spouse." -Catholic Answers
S R B I J A!
Wouldn't it be cool if all the followers of Christ could just get over themselves, stop criticizing those whose churches practice their worship of God differently or look different, and love eachother as the WHOLE body of Christ, you know... Like the Bible tells us to do! Now there's a concept. People actually loving fellow christians as the Bible tells us over and over... Wouldn't that just be crazy??..😑 imagine how many people we could reach for Jesus if we spent even half as much time spreading the gospel as we do criticizing eachother. Honestly, I just don't see how so many people don't feel the urgency of God telling us to just get over ourselves, work together as one body, and save that hurting world all around us out there, before its too late for them!
THIS
Are you dumb?
Most of us MUST be wrong and will go to Hell...
Best thing to do is divide until we find the narrow path to heaven.
How can we all work together when we have very different beliefs? How can you work together with a pro gay and pro abortion sect?
Of course you know that there are limits to Whole Body of Christ.
Do you accept Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons who claim to follow Christ?
@@blackbette07 I think this is the problem. Where do we set those limits? For some it is belief in who Christ is, for others it is what we believe about the bible, or what we believe about the church, or what we believe about the church service, or what we believe about salvation. And the problem is that we can't go around these problems because they are foundational. The answers shape the way we live.
If Saint Peter himself wasn't infallible (Galatians 2:11-12) even after his ordination as the first pope, how much greater is the pope of our day, that he should be infallible? I assure you, he is not.
Isn't that a catholic priest? Why does he have the white collar thing? That means something orthodox don't gree with. It's a dogmatic declaration.
No collar. The lights are reflecting from the mic attached to his clothes.
The critism is that icons and pagan rituals etc not commanded by Christ are idolatry and is apart of the wide way Jesus mentioned most take and actually leads to hell.
God himself instructed the building of the tabernacle and how things within it should be designed… angels within it…. the angels on the ark of the covenant… that wasn’t idolatry… it was representation of heavenly things.
If I talk to you, knowing you are a closer to God than I, and I ask you to petition or talk to God on my behalf….is that idolatry? No, of course not. Is it sinful to visit the grave of a loved one and naturally out of your connection to that person you say a few things to them? No it is not. Icons have been around since early 300 A.D. …. the icons represent the individuals who are all part of the body of Christ…who dedicated themselves to such a degree that God did many miracles through them in their life and even in their death…. so saturated they were with God’s Spirit that the relics and remains have healed many…. the Christianity of the west doesn’t have this history, Christians of the west lack this knowledge and there have what I like to call “Christianity Lite” … it doesn’t know church history beyond the epistles of the Paul and John, or that beyond the book of Acts.
Modern Christians are the result of the reformation by Martin Luther and everyone else after him. There are many like myself who have searched and studied the history of the church back to its origins … and have been led to know about Orthodox Christianity.
I was born into Catholicism, then was under the teachings of Protestantism…. but I felt there was more to this Christianity …I read the New Testament and concluded, as a teenager, that there were historical events of things not included in the bible…. not everything before the birth of Christ is in the bible, that is a fact, and not all events since the birth of the one Church is in the bible. Therefore it is imperative that we learn history of this belief we call Christianity. All roads lead to what is known today as Orthodox Christianity.
@@jaycee6438Icon veneration has not been around since the apostles.
@@YourStylesGeneric321 Hey, thanks for the correction… I had to go research it… so approximately 300-313 A.D.
@@jaycee6438 God didnt design the icons or the physical church though.
Man has done this on sand.
Well, I have yet to see any account of God punishing any Orthodox Christian for venerating the Saints of Orthodox Christianity that came from the church that was started in the book of Acts of which the Catholic Church was part of… from which ALL Protestant Churches came from… but on the contrary , I have read of countless times Orthodox Christian and even non-Christian have gone to an Orthodox Church, which is full of icons of the departed Orthodox Christian Saints and others where God has performed miracles through the relics or icons of those depicted…. The Western churches are not aware of this , which has been over 2,000 years…. and out of ignorance they call it Paganism…. not knowing these people are part of the family of Christians , who are part of all of us who call ourselves Christians…. and they petition to God on the behalf of those who ask …..