Delonghi KG79 & KG89 Mod for Finer Grinding - The Easy Way
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video, I test the Delonghi KG89 coffee grinder, to see if it can grind fine enough for espresso, before and after a simple modification.
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Stay tuned till the end, or use the time stamps to see if this grinder can provide a nice espresso, after we do a simple modification together!
Grinder: geni.us/DelonghiKG89 (Amazon)
Taking this machine apart is quite easy. You just have to remove the plastic bits, remove two knobs, and unhinge the plastic clips on the bottom. Then, remove the 4 screws holding the hopper to the housing, and lift the hopper off, to expose the adjustment gears. Simply turn the adjustment 90 degrees finer, to end up with a finer grind. Be careful to make sure the sensors are in place when reassembling.
0:00 Intro
0:46 Stock grinder test
2:43 Modification to grind finer
9:22 Grinder test after modification
10:36 Choking the espresso machine
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0:00 Intro
0:46 Stock grinder test
2:43 Modification to grind finer
9:22 Grinder test after modification
10:36 Choking the espresso machine
Grinder: geni.us/DelonghiKG89 (Amazon)
(As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases)
Thanks for posting this. I have a KG79 coming and this video gives me a better understanding of how fine I want the ground coffee to be.
You got it Alex! Let me know how the mod works out for you. 🙋🏼♂️
Ooh I'm so excited to try this! I've been disappointed with my espresso from this grinder until I stumbled on this. Thanks for this info and the demonstration!
Thanks Tom! Worked beautifully
Thank you, Tom! I just did this mod, and it worked great! With the help of your videos, I learned how to make great espresso with minimal investment.
Awesome! So happy to hear the feedback - enjoy! Tom
@@TomsCoffeeCorner I have a problem, couple of months ago I calibrated this grinder, it was ok until now which is not grinding fine. Do you have any suggestions? Is the burr damaged? The top part of the burr is worn a bit(not too much).
Thank you very much ! I was having a problem with Krups gvx242 grinder. With this modification, I have repaired and modded it. It means same logic works with similar grinders. I’m having much better results on espresso!
Great to hear! Have fun experimenting!
Damn this worked great. I was gifted my delonghi and I was worried it would never get used it works great now. Thanks for making the video!
Awesome, thanks for the feedback!
Worked like a charm. Thanks!!!!
Dip the handle of a spoon in water and mix into the beans in the hoper lid and thus will cut the static to almost nothing. It's such a small amount of water but works great.
Hey, that’s an awesome tip, thanks James! I’m going to try that out next time. 👍🏻
Tom! Fantastic stuff, Thanks! Now to go grind my burrs 🥂
Thanks so much Tom for this easy to follow guide! I was really worrying about spending more money on a grinder(this particular one came with the machine off Facebook) with my student budget but the difference it has made in terms of the strength of my espresso is crazy! Saved me lots of money!
Awesome! 😎
Thank you, it works perfect :) Now my KG89 is grinding the proper way :D !
Awesome Peter, very happy to hear it!
Just bought this machine. Was a little disappointed in the tase of my favourite blend and was thinking of sending this back for a refund. As it is not too expensive, I thought I would try this little hack. As in a previous message, I tried 13 clicks, which was too much. So I dialled back to 10 clicks and this was just fine enough. What a massive difference this has made to the taste of my favourite blend. Decided to keep this now. Thanks for the hack.
Sweet, Ian! Thanks for the feedback, and I am happy to hear your results. Cheers!
Great video, I am going to do this for my machine 😊
Hey, I just bought this model from Amazon in Ireland and I can confirm that it still works. I did the mod before i even turned it on, and the beans were a little bit too fine when i started grinding for the first time, but then they became perfect for my coffee machine.
I did only 45 degree angle turn, which was about 5 clicks, and while still checking if the burrs can turn (with the top part on). You don't want any sound when you rotate the burr. Otherwise they will grind against each other.
Amazing video, thanks so much. I was deciding between this machine and some other for 450 euro. This will do perfectly.
Thanks for your feedback, and congrats on your mod!
Super helpful thank you!
I have a Krups GVX2 grinder; basically the same as this, and the upgrade is the same process. This said, even after doing this shots were still running a little fast so I decided an alternative, Double grinding. I initially ground my beans at the halfway point, and then reground this at the finest setting...the result?...Med/Dark roast,15g in, 30 g out, 26 sec, 6mm of crema, great shot!....For reference this was using a ITS precision 51mm basket on a Delonghi Stilosa.
Hey wow that's an interesting experiment - thanks for posting the results! Tom
I did this mod and moved the wheel by 13 clicks. You can reach the motor underneatch and spin it using a small flathead screwdriver to test whether the burrs rub on each other. I can know grind a lot more fine and pull a shot from Dedica using unpressurized basket without any spray or channeling.
Thanks for the instructions!
Awesome, Kosta! Thanks for that tip! Happy coffee drinking!
Can you explain it a bit more detailed? I can figure it out what did you mean by spinning it with the small flathead screwdriver. How can it tell me if the burr is touching? Will it made strange sound when i rotate the motor manually?
@@nhs.14 no. But it won’t rotate
In my case 13 clicks sounds like a lot. I just set mine up for about 7 clicks and it is 1 click from 90 degrees. I will test the grind if it is espresso quality I will stop at that otherwise I will keep trying until I hit the espresso fine.
Did the 90 degrees rotation but wondered if I could go further. Is the 13 clicks as far as you can go?
Also, I have an idea that you can just use a piece of thick paper to see if the top grinder part leaves a print on it when locked in. If so, that means it's dangerously close to the bottom part. Wanted to test that out to get some extra clicks but I had already done the 90 turn and all the screws were in place.
Thanks, I have this combo and I could never get enough crema
Hello there!
I’m guessing that your beans are probably too old - or in other words roasted too long ago.
Check out this short blog post: tomscoffeecorner.com/what-are-the-best-beans-for-espresso/
These videos may also help:
How to Get Crema: th-cam.com/video/00NSG9459a8/w-d-xo.html
Why Supermarket Coffee Beans are RUINING your Espresso! th-cam.com/video/5BgMKqu8fJI/w-d-xo.html
How to estimate bean roast age for Lavazza: th-cam.com/users/liveQmVRpBGOokE
How to extract the perfect espresso: th-cam.com/video/piO6c695Op8/w-d-xo.html
***I’d recommend looking on google maps for local coffee roasters. That's the best way to ensure freshly roasted beans.
Cheers,
Tom
@@TomsCoffeeCorner Danke, dass du geantwortet hast, Tom
I live in Mexico. I need to roast myself
Well dane good job👍👍👍
The way I did this mod was to remove the tab on the adjustment wheel. While it's off and empty, you can turn it as fine as is possible to get the burrs to touch. Once there, step back a half turn and turn it on empty to ensure that it's free moving and not locking up. Then I pull back another full turn and slowly dial in where I want to be. I *think* i'm about 3 full turns past where it would have stopped out of the box. But there's no real way to know that. I do need to change how coarse or fine it is based on the bean I'm using.
Quick note: I got this one about 7 years ago. It worked fine for about 3 months then when I went to make some morning coffee the collector was jampacked full and the motor was burnt out. I dont know if it randomly did that or if one of the kids played with it. So out of habit, I dont push the collector in all the way until I'm ready to use it. It was replaced under warranty and due to the habit, I've not had any problems with it. It's a nice little grinder, if clumpy and lots of static. It gets far worse with the static on dark beans. But over the years, I have never found a bean that just wouldnt grind with this. Easy to clean and maintain; however it's just messy. I feel it's been a great starter grinder, with the mod of course.
Edit: Due to habit, the first thing I do when the grinder is done grinding is pull the collector, leave the lid on and have my hand or a napkin cover the "chute" hole and do a gentle tap on the counter. That keeps the mess to a minimum. I then just use a scoop to scoop out the coffee instead of trying to guide the coffee in that square box...it never seems to cooperate.
Thanks for sharing, and for those great tips! Have you tried RDT - lightly spraying your beans with a water mist before grinding? That could help with the static. But yes, this is a sweet little metal burr grinder, considering the price, in particular with the mod. Cheers!
@@TomsCoffeeCorner I've just recently learned about the misting, but I'm not sure how good that would be since I keep beans in the hopper. It only fits around 6-8oz or just more than half a bag so I'd think spritzing the beans would be a bit messy over time. I'd definitely try if I was single dosing.
I've just done this and finally getting good espresso! I went 180 and then just listened to the first grind, i did 90 to start with and it wasnt enough!
I did 90 too (during lunch) but it was not enough so went to about 170 (counting clicks would have been a better idea). Now just move the knob to find the finest - final test after work today :)
PS. the second time around, it would not start, notice there was no click from the top cover. A tiny piece of plastic has fallen out which acted as the safety, fortunately I found it on the table - so to those trying this, be careful when you pull off the connection as it could dislodge that very tiny part too. 🍻
Great video!is the grinder capable for coarser grinding after the mod? for drip coffee for example?thank you
Hi Thanos, yes it still has most of its range. It still can grind fine enough for pour over or drip coffee.
Thank you for the tip, unfortunately mine doesn't work anymore after putting it together. I don't know what i did wrong. Do you have any tips on how to fix it?
Hello Tom, great video again! I am now considering buying this grinder and do the adjustment. Is this something you would recommend or do you think there's other grinders that would be a better purchase?
Hey there Sop! I like this grinder for being small and light and ergonomic. It would be a good travel grinder for me, but probably not a daily driver for espresso. It would need to have more adjustments for that.
What price range are you thinking of? I really like the Specialita, but there’s more economical options as well. Maybe the Sette, by Baratza for example. Good luck, and let me know which route you go! 🙋♂️
@@TomsCoffeeCorner I decided to give it a go and so far I quite like it, I don't seem to have static nearly as bad as you did... I haven't done the mod yet, my shots are sometimes good and sometimes there's quite a lot of channeling, I'm not sure why... could this be because the grind is not fine enough? Or is it poor distribution?
@@soplv605 Well, mainly I would say distribution and puck prep are key here. Channeling can be caused by many sources. Are you weighing out your doses?
I just did this my KG79 and it was so easy. Didn't even need to pop the sensor. Took 5 minutes and has made a huge difference. I used the 90 degrees method. Lovely. In the UK these are on sale on Amazon atm as of today (16th Feb).
@@merlinathrawes6191 Awesome, Merlin! Thanks for the tip! 44 pounds for one of these is quite a good deal, I find.
Hi, does this grinder works for non pressure filter? thanks for all the videos! it helps a lot!
Hello Iker, thanks for the question. Yes, that is what this video is all about. With this modification, you can grind fine enough for espresso, made with a non-pressurized basket. Just watch to the end of the video, and you will see.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner thanks a lot! As I wanna improve to non pressurised basket and I can't afford a good grinder for it.
Very informative video. I have the same and I am not satisfied.
What would you suggest for espresso grinder, that really grinds, in this level of money (or a little bit more expensive )?
Thank you .
Depends on the market. I made a post about it here: tomscoffeecorner.com/best-espresso-machine-and-grinder-setups-under-500/
Amazing coffee . Can I ask what coffee machine been used .
Hey Ernest, it’s the EC685: geni.us/EC685 (worldwide Amazon link)
Thanks for the video! I have been using the KG89 with this mod for 2 years and I can seem to pull good shots (extraction time is around 25-30 seconds with my Dedica). However, the shots usually taste too acidic, and bland despite using fresh beans. How would you compare the KG89 to more expensive grinders? Should I get a better one, or is it good enough for the purpose? I'm unsure what to expect as I have no experience with high-end grinders.
You might benefit from either a hotter pull from a different machine, or trying the steam mode hack on your Dedica.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner Thanks for your reply! I did some tests, and the steam mode hack indeed helped me to slightly reduce the acidity (to my surprise). Thanks for the advice!
From what I've heard although not sure if it is 100% true . They actually heard about the customer complaints that they have to mod it in order to grind finer and the newer models don't have that issue.
Hi, may I ask iif its safe to set to finest after the mod? Or should I set it a few clicks above the finest? How many clicks from the finest is the recommended settings? Thank you.
Could you test the Delonghi KG521M coffee grinder, please? Thanks.
Hi Sam! I could probably do that at some point. Have to get my hands on one...
If anyone's wondering, if you take the burr out, you'll need to turn it anti-clockwise to lock it back in. It does NOT screw in.
It's my first time buying an automatic grinder so I wanted to ask some questions.
First, I mostly plan on using the Kg89 for pour overs so is this machine fine for that? And second is, does the Kg89 last a long time? Like is it likely to break or something? Mind you, I probably won't be doing any modifications to it.
Hi there! Sure the KG89 will be just fine for pour overs. I cannot speak much to the longevity, but I think for pour overs it should last a while. That would be my guess. It's lighter work for the motor. Also, the darker the bean, the easier it is to grind.
Hi, when you say "one notch finer" almost stopped the machine, does this mean you went back into the workings of the grinder and turned the burr even more? Or that the first time you did the mod, you only selected the second to finest size and then tried the very finest the second time?
I believe I just turned it around 90 degrees. By notch I mean on the dial. One notch makes quite a difference in grind size.
Hi Tom, is it safe to turn the knob 90º as shown in the video?
Is there a risk of burning the machine?
Do the threads touch?
I have found that 90 degrees is fine. Some have done 180 degrees without issue. But, be careful, it's at your own risk. Just increment slightly until you can get fine enough.
Does anyone know how good Delonghi kg521m grinder is?
Hello, excellent video ... tell me, please, how much do you calibrate the machine for that excellent coffee? How much should we turn the dial after having modified it to obtain that creamy coffee ... thanks for your tips.
Hello Juan, you just have to experiment with it. For me, it was 3-4 clicks. Good luck!
@@TomsCoffeeCorner Thank you so much 🤙🏼
Anyone can tell me how to know if the grinder touch the burr? If done this but it wasn’t fine enough, my espresso is way too fast and under extracted
Hi there! Well you would feel or hear the resistance of the burrs touching. Try not to let conical burrs touch if you can avoid it.
Hey Tom. Question if you were able to get this used for cheap but the kingrinder P2 for about $30 more which would you choose and why?
I haven't tried the P2, but I am guessing it will be more consistent, and better to dial in. Cheers!
I bought the same grinder and modified the same as you did but still the coffee doesnt come fine enough, any suggestion Tom ?
Well, you can adjust it further than a quarter turn, but you just have to be careful that the burrs don't collide. Also, make sure ot use freshly roasted coffee beans. Cheers!
Am trying with fresh beans first than cuz ma afraid to make it more. Thanks Tom, always you are the best for help.
Where can I find such a holder attachment?
Do you mean the bottomless portafilter? Check the description, I have some accessories listed there.
After trying this hack, now my grinder ceases to work 😂💀 gg
No way! My KG79 is not able to grind beans like yours in "stock grinder test". I bought NPF but i have to change grinder. Using KG79 and NPF Coffee is coming out way to fast and Hance, The shot is really watery. :(
Well, you may need to grind finer yet, and make sure you are using freshly roasted beans. 👍
Do you know if this hack can be done in any grinder of this type?
Well, all the mechanisms are slightly different, so I am not so sure...
how in the world do u get crema with the stock settings….. please someone tell me, what am i doing wrong
I made this video just for you: th-cam.com/video/piO6c695Op8/w-d-xo.html
Can I go beyond 90 degrees click( let say 12 clicks) in order to get finer result?
You can, but just know that at some point the teeth will grind together. Be careful!
Man i try several times but it doesnt work with this adjustment you know if i can do something?
Well, this grinder is a bit inconsistent...I would recommend the Fellow Opus these days.
Hey Tom. I tried this but now my machine won’t turn on. The sensor turns blue when I press the on button, but no grinding. Can you assist?
Could it be that you have the burrs too close together? Can you back off a little bit?
By backing off a little bit, do you mean changing it back to original alignment? I’ve tried that and still not truly turning on. Only getting the blue power light show when I press the on button.
@@tylerbarnes659 You might be missing one of the tiny safety reed switches. Please re-check your assembly, and make sure they are all making contact. I think there are 2-3 of them.
I have done the mod and for a long time it worked fine, until i got myself some more expensive beans. Now, at the same grind setting my delonghi machine pops out the rubber above the portafilter, the one around the shower screen. I need at least 2-3 grind clicks lower to make it work. Do the beans make such a difference? Has that happened to anybody else?
Hmmm. I have never seen that happen. If anything the machine should choke, not loosen a gasket. How old is your delonghi, and which model?
@@TomsCoffeeCorner EC680, not that old. I did have to change that gasket eventually cause it got ripped, but it continues to pop it out every time unless I drop the grind setting 2 to 3 clicks coarser from before. Btw, I had it at the middle position before. Then the water runs very fast and the extraction is poor...taste is not good at all. I guess I'll have to stick to the previous beans, can't afford buying new gaskets all the time 😄. Channeling is always there, no matter what I do...
When using super fine coffee mine choked, but no rubber popping out... Like shown at the end of the video 10:40
If you use pressurized basket then you won't need the hack. Machine grinds it fine enough.
That’s true, JJ. But it’s fun to experiment. 🤗
My grinder stopped working what do you guys think the problem is? Pls help ASAP
Did you do the mod? Maybe one of the sensors got lodged out of place.
Is there more than one sensor?
Has someone tried this with the Melitta Molino grinder?
Not I...
did you use original dedica portalfilter?
Yes, that is the original PF, with the bottom sawed off, but with an aftermarket basket. Cheers!
@@TomsCoffeeCorner thanks. Can i ask to you why did you saw it?
To see how the extraction looks...
@@TomsCoffeeCorner oh, ok. thanks very much
It feel like your button can rotate freely(from coarse to fine in clockwise direction), and you didnt say(show) where to set the button for the fine coffee grind which is good for nice shots. Tried the mod, recieved kinda good shot at fine setting(meaning didnt move the button after modding), tried second type of coffee(both was medium roasted) aaaand not good.
Hey Tohn, I did show that the dial must be turned all the way to the left (fine) before starting. To get a finer grind, keep turning to the left. If the first batch of beans was good, and the second wasn't, then maybe the second batch was too old...? What brand of beans are you using?
@@TomsCoffeeCorner Just to clarify what i did was turning the big white wheel anti clockwise 90 degrees(the original marking was on the right) and then put little arm in original position with the knob on the left side meaning that this is the last setting for fine grind, i think i see in video that you just rotated the arm not the wheel, or am i wrong ? Should i dissasemble again and rotate the arm too ?The coffee beans are - medium roast starbucks pike place and the second is davidoff 57 espresso intense(which had almost no crema) with after market basket
Hey there, you are right, I forgot to calibrate the wheel, so that when I set it to grind finer now, the wheel goes past "fine." But that's not a big deal, I can just pop the wheel off and adjust.
As for Starbucks beans, I have had really bad luck with those. Some of the worst I have tried. I think they are too old. Where are you located? Do you have a roastery near by?
@@NancyBaabe Hey there, thanks for your comment. Well, I did show all the steps I took. There are various ways to grind finer, but the way I showed, to just turn the stem 90 degrees is the easiest. Do you have any specific questions about the mod?
Hi! Can i grind/dial any bean to that mod? Im a first timer
Hey Stefan, light roasted beans may be a little too dense for this grinder. But a medium or dark roast should be just fine. 👍🏻
@@TomsCoffeeCorner thanks for a fast reply! Will try this first before upgrading.
Hi! I tried modding my kg79, and try all the fine settings, got lucky and found a good taste but not good enough for me. And like yours, i got channeling, is this because this grinder really cant produce a good ground quality?
@@shabsky3244 Hi Stephen, how freshly roasted are your beans? You might want to also consider puck prep.
That being said, I would recommend getting a higher quality grinder like a Eureka, if you strive for consistent results. Here are a few recommendations: kit.co/tomscoffeecorner/grinder-suggestions
Hi i did the same hack just moved few teeths so the burrs won't rub
I get perfect esspresso shots used it 6 8 times but now I can see my burrs damaging from the corners both of my burrs
I don't know it is fine or it will damage my whole burrs and won't be able to get a good esspresso grind in future
Please share the knowledge if any one knows any thing
Hmm, not quite sure what you mean is being damaged. The burrs are metal, so as long as they are not rubbing against each other, things should be fine. But do elaborate if you don't mind. Cheers!
@@TomsCoffeeCorner I can see the black color of the burrs rubbing both of the burrs and I din even kept them that close but still
Hi, i did the mod but my upper burr wont lock anymore, do you know what to do?
Hey there, hmm...I didn't remove the burrs for this mod, so I am not sure exactly what you mean. Did you unscrew the upper burr completely?
@@TomsCoffeeCorner i just unlocked it, do you understand me about what part am i talking about? I can send you photos for better understanding
Hmm, not sure, but post a link to some pics, and I will have a look.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner sure
@@spgamessrbija1472 same happened to me, how did you solve it? Kako si to riješio?
hello my friend, I have delonghi dedica ec680m, do you advise me to buy Kg79 and is it good for espresso coffee ?
Hey there, the KG can grind fine enough for espresso with this mod and a non-pressurized basket, or it can grind fine enough for a pressurized basket, without the mod. No matter what, it is a good grinder for the price, in my opinion.
Hey everyone, I just did this upgrade but unfortunately there's another part that he doesn't show in the vid and if you lose it the grinder will not work, So when you disassemble the sensor be aware that there are two parts, The sensor itself and a pin that touch the sensor when you close the lid, When I removed the sensor the pin flew out and it's super tiny so I lost it, If that happens to you what I would suggest is that you glue the sensor to make it always on, So that even if the lid is open the machine will work, Anyway that's what I did and it's perfect now.
That's true, you have to be careful that the microswitches stay in place.
Dude, your comment saved my grinder. I found this little pert on the floor, becouse in the video it doesn't shown. Thanks a lot!
@@Hornton990 No worries brother!
Why does the coffee splash out around the portafilter? (Minute 2:20) I have that problem actually and i don’t know how to fix it.
Hello Bee, thanks for the question. That is generally from a grind that is not fine enough, poor puck preparation, or beans that are too old. See this video from more tips: th-cam.com/video/00NSG9459a8/w-d-xo.html
Hi there - I have modded the grinder but still not getting the "fine" I want - the coffee is coming out way too fast and hence, the shot is really watery.
I am using a Dedica as well but with the original basket - I am able to get pretty good shots when I have shops grind my coffee so I would expect if I max out the fine on the grinder I should get a similar result.
Do you know maybe what the maximum rotation is? (i.e. right now I have it maybe at 120 degrees)
Thanks in advance
Hey there McHonny. Well, you raise some interesting points. I just went 90 degrees with my KG89, and that made it fine enough for me. But, I do think it would have been possible to go a full 180 degrees finer (at the adjustment knob).
The other point is that you are getting your grounds from coffee shops. So, they will of course have much better, professional grinders with larger better burrs, which is of course going to help the extraction.
In summary, you could adjust this KG89 finer, and should get grounds fine enough for espresso. But, be careful to find the reference point first, before loading it with beans, and back off from there, so that it doesn't choke.
Cheers!
Tom
180 degree confirm. Thank you so much. I was so frustrating before I found your vid.
It's all about the autofocus not keeping up in the most important scenes.
Sorry, I guess I hadn’t noticed that. Maybe I’ll do this mod again and re-shoot the video.
Drop of water into beans trick makes static to go away
Im scared of breaking the machine, should i do it?
Only if you like tinkering...
@@TomsCoffeeCorner ah...
Please keep the music down, it is so loud I could not make out what you were saying, half the time
Did it and now it’s broken and won’t turn on ☹️
Hmm, sorry to hear that. I mention in the video that you have to make sure the microsensors are in place. Otherwise, it won't turn on for safety reasons. Maybe check those again?
microsensor has 3 parts to it! There is also a bullet looking plastic that pushes the sensor button when lid is in place! Be careful not to lose that piece! I lost it in the first place.
I have the same problem. I have retained all of the sensor parts but will not turn back on. Is there more than one sensor?
Oops. Just discovered that there is also a sensor in the grinds drawer. The drawer also needs to be installed for the grinder to operate.
@@jjeerryy82 do you happen to know how those 3 parts should be assembled?
i can't figure it out for the life of me 🤣
Kullandığın kamera bu iş için uygun değil..Çok yavaş fokus yapıyor
It's actually a very good camera, but it doesn't always auto focus where I want. So now lately I have been using manual focus. Cheers!
Espresso shouldn’t be that long..
Not nicely explained. It is by explained much better and clearer in the following:-
th-cam.com/video/3pZfNms5j9U/w-d-xo.html&si=BE6_Ca3DOadfiY9a
Everyone has their own opinion. Cheers!
Focus 😪
Sorry!
I didn't get the difference betwen the KG79 and the KG89. BYW, your need to improve your accent when speaking numbers.
The KG 79 and 89 are the same as far as I can tell.