Seriously dude? My super awesome vintage 808 was just about to go on Reverb for $600 so I can buy my cat dancing lessons. You just ruined it for me. And for Tinkerbell.
I have been screaming at videos about this for years, even the stupid notion of comparing pedals by putting them at 12o’clock. It’s all randomness because of tolerance variability not to mention confirmation bias. I loved this video for busting that myth wide open at last. It makes the so called experts look like novices. Well done Brian.
@@allankvist6741 you heard a clear difference because he said one was a TS9 and the other was an 808. It's the same pedals he used throughout the entire video but you only heard a difference when he told you there was one.
A barrel-aged TS808 will always exhibit hints of vanilla in the nose, while a fresh TS9 is fruitier, reminiscent of black currant. In reality, though, the TS9 only outputs about .02 amperes of black currant.
in reality anyone who has had one of these for a year or more probably has the best one for them because they have learned where to put the dials to sound good for them, and they have learned to play to the strengths of that particular pedal, because it is all they have played through!
Well, it’s obviously the tone metal in the casing that makes the difference. Also, the vintage 808s used a different green lacquer, which vibrates at a smoother resonant frequency. That’s why they’re worth more.
Not a true comparison unless both are tested in different hemispheres in a vaccum chamber during a full lunar eclipse.That's when the magic happens and the different circuitry really stands out.
I'm sticking with the switch. You can clearly hear the smaller switch on the 808. The TS9 has a bigger sound as a result, but some would argue that it's not as focused.
Mine has to be from a JHS video about the sound of new pedals vs what they “used to sound like”. He said something like, “ it’s time we as a society admit that we can’t remember what we had for breakfast last Tuesday much less what a pedal sounded like 30 years ago.” 😂
Thank you so much for making this video. I've NEVER been able to tell THAT much of a difference in the TS808, TS9 and Maxon versions. I mean I could always hear just a tiny bit of difference when put into a super clean uncompressed amp, but never much. Even different TS9s sounded different to me though, so I thought i was just crazy. All my 'music friends' told me I was tone def. So the fact that this video exists, makes me feel much better. Also, I love your pedals man. I have 3 so far :)
I had a guitarist who left my band because I used cheaper alternatives. He took the drummer with him too. still don't know what happened to them after that.
Lol blow me... that’s why you have knobs on amp and pedal to increase or decrease thud or whatever you’re dreaming about. In either pedal. Turn you’re knobs you knob.
I discovered when I was making a home built guitar just how much variation there is in pots. Some pots read as high as 550k and some as low as 450k. It never occurred to me at the time that this would be the same with pedals but now that you point it out, it all makes sense. Thank you for busting the myth.
This happened when alps and many other high quality potentiometer manufacturers had to shut down. People cared more about low price, not tight tolerances. Tolerances in pots has actually got worse since then. Now, it is stupid to even think about buying alps pots. They cost more than a power transformer now... The reason is actually out of their control though. Carbon film as the variable resistor is how it is done, but this process is crude and unreliable. Tolerances are determined after the fact, and thus, the tighter the tolerance, the lower the yield, the higher the price, and people are not willing to pay a higher price.
I once did a blind test with 3 pedals, an original TS808, a reissue TS9 and a cheap TS7. There are differences if you hear them side by side but any of them would do the job. I recently bought 2 "identical" new MXR distortions for 2 boards and tried to match them which was a hard job. One has more gain but less top end than the other and it's impossible to not hear the differences when you put them side by side.
2022 - This channel is where I go if I want a true, no BS, expert opinion and/or comparison about an amp, pedal or anything electronic having to do with guitars. There are so many myths out there that real facts have are starting to become dinosaurs. Great video!
I love the fact that Brian invests some of his valuable time trying to educate us in pedal electronics. I am personal testament to the fact that my tonal preferences change over time and I may like the tubescreamer for a while, then move no to explore another drive pedal (currently OCD). I'm pretty sure it has less to do with the actual electronics and more to do with my varying tonal preferences over time. That said, I always enjoy Brian's video's.The clarity he brings to pedal formats helps me explore their differences and enjoy the next step in my tonal journey.
At one point I owned an 808, a TS 9, and a TS 10 and could detect no major discernible differences between them. I just thought I had lousy ears. Thanks Brian!
I’m a pedal collectin’ kinda Guy, I already have a 35th anniversary MIJ ts808 but I know I’m gonna have to grab one of them old school 81’ editions for a couple grand to get “that” sound I hear on the radio all day. This channel is one of my favorite to watch on TH-cam when it comes to the real deal of what’s what. Keep it up Mr.Wampler
MAD RESPECT!!! More people need to be like you when shooting out stuff and ABing them. Don’t tell or show what is what. Guitar nerds like me hear with their eyes and don’t go after the actual best sound. They like what they want, stubborn and they rarely change their mind. I used to be the same way.
My Ts9 has a cleaner sound because I’ve been brainwashed to believe so.
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Thanks for these kind of videos Bryan. I always believed the hype about the TS808 and TS9 and I must say after you demonstrated I can't tell the difference. It started making sense when you explained the differences in tolerance of components and the effect it has on the overall sound. Thanks again. Both are awesome pedals in my books.
Man, it's difficult to even tell my TS9 from my SD-1 once I'm going through a gain-y amp with some effects in the loop, and those are *entirely different pedals*. I've always thought anyone who claims to hear a systematic difference between the various tubescreamer models was full of it. Thanks for the vid.
Another clinical method to compare these pedals is to record a dry repeated control performance and then re-amp it thru the pedals for a tonal comparison.
Here's what I do when buying a pedal: I plug it into my rig (yes, I take my rig to the store - they don't mind), then I see how it sounds. If it sounds the way I want it to sound, for a price I want to pay, I buy it. That simple. I don't give a damn if it's labeled TS Mini, TS 9, TS 808, Klon, or any other such thing. It takes very little time or effort to see the reality of it all: Just take two "identical" pedals off the shelf and A/B them. They won't be identical. The same goes for instruments. As such, just test out what the store has and take home the one that best suits your needs. Leave the labels to the posers.
The TS-808 is more transparent than the TS-9 in my opinion. It has more "grit" while the TS-9 has more "saturation". Also the Boss Big Muff is more transparent than the TS-808. They all, however, are less transparent than my trusty Red Panda Particle. When Stevie Ray Jimi used that on "My Big Green Tractor" I realized that the quest for true guitar tone would not be completed by one pedal vs another, but by practicing Lydian b7 b9 scales in 5/8 at 200.2b pm. Plug your acoustic into a Line 6 Spider like a REAL man (making sure to have 8 Big Sky's going before it) and have a Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive™ BEFORE the reverbs though. Tone is in the flangers. the phalanges? sorry for the philosophy goodnight
Usually if you build one yourself the difference between TS9 and TS808 is you solder in 470R + 100k resistors for the TS9 and 100R+10k resistors for the TS-808. What makes a bigger difference is if they are asymetrical clipping or nah (thats a mod).
Brian, I have to admit that I didn't know the difference between the two til I watched this video. I found a used and abused TS9 at a Salvation Army thrift store a couple of years ago (I paid $8 for a box of pedals and TS9 was one of them- Lucky me!) All I had to do was wipe the penis artwork off of the box and replace the old knobs for new ones and its been great.
Mind blown. So each pedal in each amp is going to be the differences. Amazing. This brings up more interesting conversation about how our brains remember tones/feelings about what we play and when and how we play it. This would be a great blog topic for Jason.
Some pedal manufacturers (and Wampler is most likely one of these) cherry-pick parts so that their tolerances sort of cancel each other out, making the product more consistent while also not throwing away components. Both the 468k and 514k pots are within tolerance, but it's true, they're not going to behave exactly the same. Cherry-picking the variance on the next part in the circuit can go a long way to cancel that out. The parts are slightly different in each circuit, but because they are matched to each other, the end result is quite similar.
I laughed out loud at your 3:28 review. Loved it! So many tone freaks are about minutiae shit that is so irrelevant when a full band kicks on top in a live situation. Great job
The funny thing is, talking about the gain knob’s effect on the TS9/808 is like eating a banana without peeling it. The best way to use these pedals is gain low and the volume boosted in front of a CRANKED amp. Most comments on forums are bedroom levels through an SM57 which can only hear a fraction of the freqs. When people test, I suggest cranking and using 3 mics. A bass mic, an sm57 style for mids and a condenser good for highs to capture the air. Then you get the full picture re freqs. Great vid by the way. Keep em coming.
Yeah well, I don't really like circle of tone after the clickbate video about moeer preamps being as good as kemper etc...he's kind of a weirdo. I remember him being the tock tock guy always edgy etc on forums. There isn't a correct way to use something, it's about what is usefull to a guitarist I guess and I always love watching videos and picking things up. The tube screamer is as much a normal overdrive as it is a hi gain boost, in fact it started primarly as a "distortion pedal" of the era if you think about it...SRV certainly didn't use it as a hi gain boost. Peavey solid states of old can be killer amps though. I've got some hi endish stuff (brunetti soldano mesa amps, peavey tube and other stuff) and I am still amazed on what they accomplished with a humble peavey bandit. And that amp certainly doesn't need a boost.
Gain pot is just one part though. Imagine how different amps sound from eachother. We should be A/Bing different models much less and A/Bing some of the same much more.
I loved when you set down your coffee (beverage). Possibly the most important piece of gear in that room. I'm happy with my Joyo Vintage OD. It does that green pedal thing for me. A tool, nothing more.
there's a difference and i was able to ID them before the reveal. Is it much of a difference? depends on how picky you are. frankly i prefer just the amp's drive over a pedal
Great video! Those pots (variable resistors) had a large difference in ohms! So, every single pedal will sound technically different from each other, then we have the same situation going on inside the guitar pits, and then the amp pots! ;)
He's not saying TubeScreamers are no good buy Wampler's version instead. He's saying is there a difference between them .. no not really. Given that he actually has designed and built well respected pedals for years, I'd say he is certainly credible.
Old vid but thank you so much for being the wealth of information you are for the community. Because of that I have not only purchased your products, but others.
The true secret to maximizing the overall tone of any TS9/808 is running a 9v battery in conjunction with a power supply cable, it truly makes ever bit of difference. One more thing, use Energizer because that Rabbit gives it more kick 👍🏽
Excellent video! Thanks for explaining what shapes the tone of an OD pedal. I can see that two of the same pedals would probably not sound exactly the same. :)
This is useful. I'm going to buy a TS. I posted a thread on TGP asking for recommendations. Actually the majority of comments were along these lines, i.e., "don't buy into all the crap, just get a TS9 or a TS mini". There were a lot of recommendations for TS type pedals from other companies, but not many people saying you have to have a vintage 808 or anything.
I play a lot of fast, palm muted staccato note metal. Keeping the palm mutes fluid with just enough attack to stay "heavy" is better suited for the 808. If you want palm mutes that cut to the bone but feel stiffer get the ts-9. If you don't even play metal get the 808.
One chip in TS9 does suck without a doubt, a 7555 digits on it. Put in a socket and install any of the other chips and R104 with a 2.2k ohm R114 with 100 ohm and R115 with 10k ohm. Electronic guys never can speak sense but they never shut up. Pot resistance was miniscule in the video. I modded mine 50 times it seems with different things, foil burned off jumper wires everywhere, all the websites are done by lunatics who cannot explain anything... the above was all I needed. here is a photo of options: media.stinkfoot.se/2010/11/TSmod.jpg
There has got to be more of these things out there. Would love to see more similar circuits A/B like this. Fun to see which ones I can and can't hear the difference between.
My friend has a TS9 he bought new in the 80's. I have a reissue TS808 I bought new about two years ago. I compared them side by side - same amp, guitar, settings, etc. - and they sound almost identical. That tells me one of two things. Either I'm tone deaf or the pedals are extremely similar. And Ibanez did a great job of making something new sound vintage. Great video!
Ibanez makes no money off used pedals. So its in there interest to make new ones that sound exactly like the old ones. How do they do this? They simply make the same circuit....
Great video. Love the proto board. I like tone in electric guitar playing, but I’m also an EE and also don’t like the hype surrounding this stuff. Some of the comments on your video are as entertaining as the video itself! Cool ! Keep it up.
just to the point, no bullshitting! Thanx! I used to use ibanez TS-9 for years and it has been stolen one day, so I went and bought maxon ts808. What was my surprise that I found NO difference, like at all. Good precise video.
The TS 9 sounded more like a very sharp Samurai Sword dipped in plum rice wine while the TS808 sounded like a finely honed battle axe used on the set of Braveheart after aging in a solid oak outhouse.
Hoo-boy. Maybe the only thing worse than self-professed "golden eared audiophiles" are "golden eared guitar gearheads". :D Brian, get ready - this could end up as bad as the tone-wood ragewar. lol I get it though. It can be so crushing and disillusioning when factual stuff like science and engineering calls into question long-held, often beloved pre-conceptions. There's gotta be a psychological term for this... cheers man!
@@jeffbrown-hill7739 In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. This discomfort is triggered by a situation in which a person’s belief clashes with new evidence perceived by the person. I think Richard got it right.
well I've made te 808 mod on a ts9 and the change is more on the resistors values which are changing. The sound of the chipset is a legend...blind tests are really helping. Our brain hears just what we expect! thanks!
Not that it matters, but when you were doing the A/B, they sounded different to my ears. Not sure which is which - and doesn't matter to me. Do they sound identical to other people's ears?
I'm betting in a mix they sound almost identical, also the difference could be down to different tolerances in the parts used on the breadboard as well.
Late to the party but the actual difference in the 2 circuits is 2 resistors and 1 cap. I remember the cap is 47nf in one and 4.7nf in the other. Couldn't quote what from the top of my head. Loved the video, been screaming this into the void forever. Instant sub
Im glad someone made this video for todays generation. I learned it from a luthier many years ago. saying that models of pedal have hardly perceivable nuances its the same argument that a tone pot makes a guitar better. 99% of people dont seem to realise that the tone pot is CUTTING your tone, not boosting it! in some circumstances, its just one more thing in the circuit cutting the high frequencies. for the record, i'm not saying you shouldn't have one or that having one makes no difference to your sound, but for some types of music (metal rhythm guitar for instance) its superfluous. most of my guitars have a single volume knob and I achieve as much tonally as anyone else but its all in the ears of the beholder (or whatever word means "to listen to something") :) I guess you *COULD* use military grade components that have a far lower tolerance range, but the cost is prohibitive and wheres the fun in that :)
Am I the only one who thought the upper mid/treble characteristic was different in the two modes he played? I still think the ts9 has a brighter character.
I could both hear the difference and correctly chose which was which. I've played the TS9 for years and am extremely familiar with the sound (and also an audio engineer). Every time I plug in a TS808 I can hear the difference immediately and I really don't like them for what I do. Having the right drive completely changes the feel of my tone and how I play. Unfortunately, the real truth is that the difference is very small, some people can hear it and others cant (for various reasons), and to those that can it may or may not be important. To those who consider it important, like me, its nearly a deal breaker, so it tends to get overblown as an issue where it really only applies to players with an ear for it. As to the differences between the same models leading to massive price differences, I think thats sillier than the tone/feel difference.
Between the 468kΩ and 514Ω pot, how much would the difference in tone be when used for gain/tone/output level? If my trusty old Maxon OD808 isn't 100% to my taste, would it be worth replacing these pots with ones of lower/higher impedances? If the difference is audible, it could be a nice, cheap alternative to replacing the entire pedal with an expensive different version of the same circuit.
He didn't mention one thing: this parts also change its properties during time - pedals sound different with age. I'm not kidding. So, there is a chance that vintage pedals with the same circuit as a new one will sound slightly different.
_More_ results than tolerance differences. Drift can easily halve or double a component's value -- or worse yet, make it behave totally different hot than it does cold. This is a much wider swing than component tolerance allows for.
Tolerance is meant to include the varying of value with temperature. I don't think it takes into account long-term drift. It's hard to say if modern components suffer from long term drift. We don't use ancient carbon comp resistors any more.
Electrolytic capacitors drift quite significantly with age, especially in equipment made 10 to 15 years ago due to "capacitor plague". If they haven't exploded, it's generally safe to assume they're well out of spec by now. Fortunately, the much lower operating voltage of solid state equipment means that the sound will suffer and perhaps the circuit will misbehave, but it is highly unlikely to harm the user. The same can't be said of leaky capacitors meant to suppress high voltage DC in tube circuits.
So if old components have value drift, how do I know what a vintage TS808 sounds like? By now they should all be completely different. If one sounds good, it's just coincidence that the components changed value in a way that produces a nice tone.
After buying a TS808 to sound like SRV people were like "WTF" when SRV's guitar tech came out and said that Stevie actually used a TS10 for a long time...sorry
He would probably also claim that one would sound better than the other if it had another brand of 9V battery in it, and also which screws that were used to plug the pedal case together.
This kind of knowledge is invaluable to an electronics novice like myself. Again it confirms to me the genuineness of your own products to do what you say they will and not just be disguised with marketing hype. Well done. P.S - my TS9 is darker than my TS808, but they likely changed the pigment. 🤫
I know the schematic of the tubescreamer because I built it. I also studied buffers a lot, and the difference between the TS9 and TS808 is in the output buffer. No night and day difference, but there IS a subtle difference and you can definitely hear it if you know "where" (in the frequencies spectrum) to look for it: the 808 as slightly more top end presence and slightly less bass. I could spot which one was which easily at the blindfold test at beginning of the video. No, nobody will be able to go to a concert and say "oh yes, this is definitely a TS9 I'm hearing, it can't be a TS808". BUT if you know your gear, you might prefer one over the other, mostly depending on how your basic clean tone is set (brighter or darker). No, moving the TS tone pot doesn't really changes the tone in the same way. Yes, accommodating with your amp's presence control might give you the same results. But if you previously set your amp tone controls that way and like the result, why moving them to accommodate for a pedal? Luckily enough the difference is very subtle, so anyone can live with one or the other in his/her pedalboard. But people who had the fortune to try both (with their own gear) and have a preference, are not victims of a psychoacoustic bias! They are really hearing that difference (which anyone can hear in the video with a good pair of headphones/speakers, so thanks Brian) so they are not to ban!
You are talking about less then 2% of a sound difference. And those can not explain the prizes for vintage 808. So actually yes, this is about psychoacoustic bias. People believe something is better because other people told them so (see: Klon, Neve 1073 etc etc)
Michael Kupfer As I build my own pedals, I don't care about prices. I'm only saying that the difference is there, and that it suffices for choosing one over the other. So again no, there is no psychoacoustic bias here.
Dude, he even explained in the video that the tolerance of the parts functions make a bigger difference than the 2 different pedals. If you do hear a difference,you are hearing the tolerance difference and would be hearing the same thing if you compare 5 ts9 or 5 ts808 to each other. It's not the pedal that makes the difference it's the quality of the parts. Both use the same quality of parts so it's going to come down to each specific pedals tolerance across the board.
James Crider, the TS I built has sockets to compare those two output buffer resistors: you would hear that difference too! As soon as I will find a way to record in high quality, I will make a comparison video
Thank you Brian!!! I have 9 Tube Screamer-type pedals (Ibanez, DIY and others) and they all sound almost Identical. Maybe some very small differences. Some because of tolerances but most of the differences I hear are in my head ;-)
The general comparisons me and my buddies make is usually a "this sounds shitty" and a "damn that sounds nice." Spending time playing and adjusting settings instead of talking about tone is a really good way to end up with a sound you're really happy with.
I almost never comment anything... but just had to this time. I also hate to disagree, but I clearly hear the difference, instantly guessed which one the TS9 was and still prefer it over TS808. Guys don't hate me please... there is a difference, I had both, played them live and really like TS9 better. It also "feels" a bit different when I play... more "responsive".. hard to describe.Thanks for the comparison! Peace to you all!
Yes, but I think his point was that the difference you're hearing has less to do with circuit design differences, and more to do with tolerance values for different components. He could do a side-by-side with a pair of TS9s and people would swear they hear a difference, possibly because the gain pot on one has a Ohm reading of 515k, while the other reads 480k.
All TS's sound like mushy green lumps of midrange. The reason they're so popular is that they correct the Strat's complete lack of mid range and ease some of the shrill treble.
I recently watched the TS-9 vs. Kokko 's "Green" overdrive video and found the differences to be very minor. I bought the Kokko to do some pedal stacking and am pleased with the result. I am pleased with the overall signal to noise even at high gain levels. Great video about a very "over-chewed" subject
I easily picked the first slightly more treble less smooth breakup tone to be the TS9 and the smoother 2nd one was the 808. Every time he switched. I have them both and although the values change on components from pedal to pedal, there does seem to be a consistent audible difference, at least to me. But some cannot discern between Pepsi and Coke so.
I (with the help of some donations) put 3 ts9s in front of a few amps. I could easily see that the pots trimmed at different levels, but this did not stop me from finding the same "sweet spot" on all 3 pedals. The point of all this is that you try before you buy, and go with what YOU like!
There's not a lot of difference, but to my ear, with decent headphones, I can hear a bit more bottom end on the TS808 circuit. I've screwed around with SPICE programs (for nerds), and I can say, objectively, that there is a quantifiable difference, even if slight. Throw in part tolerances, and a lot of that goes up in the air. But more importantly, why does it matter if someone thinks they hear a difference or if someone doesn't? I swear that the 808 sounds a bit creamer, to my ear. And I've done enough research into the circuit to say that's that isn't an unfounded belief. Again, I completely agree that tolerances will probably have a greater effect on a TS styled overdrive then a few resistors, I mean, SRV famously went through tons of them to find the perfect pedal, if that isn't evidence enough. However, that doesn't mean people's anecdotal evidence is wrong either. They might just have better hearing for those special frequencies. I can say that I can't hear a massive difference between a green back and blue back, and jeez do I keep that opinion to myself, because people swear by blue backs. Also, I don't have a lot of experience in person with blue backs, so relying heavily on compressed TH-cam videos for information isn't exactly helpful either. To conclude, I do understand the point of the video, and I don't entirely disagree with it, I just believe that people will have there opinions, and just because you can't understand them, doesn't mean they are wrong. Keep up the good work Wampler!
It matters because people spend money based on what they believe is a design difference when it's a random result of the flawed manufacturing process that does not create all products alike. Then they spend time being wrong on the internet. I'm not paying my ISP for people to be wrong on my internet, goddammit! And creamy isn't a word that is applicable to sound. You're thinking cheddar.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I have a degree in electronics technology, and was aware of tolerance. I just never considered it in the "mystery" of pedals. :)
Bullshit. They absolutely sound different and can definately have different applications. Component tolerance is always part of the game even with your stuff you don't use 1% do you? I've been playing tube screamers for thirty years professionally. I have two of them both modded. One is a one trick pony very creamy Classic 808 vibe it's a TS-10. My TS 9 has 3 gain mod options and two tone cap options. I have germanium diode, zener and silicone diode clipping on a switch. I have classic 808 and TS-9 tones plus another more distorted selection. I have been a tone seeker for thirty years and have tried hundreds of overdrives. I recently purchased another boutique unit in hopes of getting something more or different I don't even know why I try. My two tube screamers destroy any and all pedals I have ever compared them to. They just put a brand new $200 boutique overdrive in a box in the corner. There are good and bad tube screamers same with Marshall amps and pickups. Heat also plays a big part in how pickups perform. The tube screamer is legendary and IMO still hasn't need topped. I'm playing cranked Marshall's with Les Paul with JB/Jazz or Strat with my own custom wound set at 6.9k RWRP. nothing I've ever heard compares to a good tube screamer hands down.
Brian, a 20 percent gain difference is not that different. Re: king of tone high gain vs normal gain. You probably used bog standard 1n914/1n4148 diodes in both circuits. Not uncommon. Many ts cloners forget the ma150 is a high headroom diode and every ts9 I’ve ever measured had @ .5 forward voltage cutoff where the ma150 is closer to .85. When you refer to “changing a couple of resistors”, I assume you are referring to is the output buffer which would only be heard in front of a pedal with poor input impedance (which was the reason for the change in the first place). That’s also the only time a nine series sounds brighter than an 808. It retains highs better in front of a poorly designed pedal. The higher headroom of the 808 actually does give a more open sound in the treble frequencies which is why the 808 sounds brighter and cleaner in optimum situations.
The 808 has a bigger sound cause it's a bigger number
Hold on... yup. Math checks out. It's a bigger number. Science means it's a bigger sound.
Well, it's 799 bigger, innit?
...And a bigger price tag.
big muff has bigger sound than 808 because its bigger
That's quick maths.
Seriously dude? My super awesome vintage 808 was just about to go on Reverb for $600 so I can buy my cat dancing lessons. You just ruined it for me. And for Tinkerbell.
So fuckin edgy and hardcore bro
This is a strange comment section lol 😂
My dancing lessons for cats are much cheaper. I hope you don''t give up on your dreams......
But does your guitar sound better running through your cat?
I had to paws for a moment and give a good cry for poor Tinkerbell.
I have been screaming at videos about this for years, even the stupid notion of comparing pedals by putting them at 12o’clock. It’s all randomness because of tolerance variability not to mention confirmation bias. I loved this video for busting that myth wide open at last. It makes the so called experts look like novices. Well done Brian.
Stephen Parry
It's amazing how many ppl have limited knowledge about the gear they're using. Basic electronics people! Tolerances change everything!
It didnt really bust anything. I heard clear difference in the last part. Is the 808 more expensive?
@@allankvist6741 you heard a clear difference because he said one was a TS9 and the other was an 808. It's the same pedals he used throughout the entire video but you only heard a difference when he told you there was one.
It makes the so called experts look like marketers, which is what they usually are
@@kill3r_b75 auch.
So what you're saying is, things sound different when you use pot.
Through extensive research, I can confirm this theory.
he said use pot
Sounds like you were on of those guys swearing your TS808 is brighter or darker or brighter...
Me too. Pot makes a difference.
well it was the coke
Pot makes a difference, but caps man... caps will make ya fly!
I definitely prefer the TS9, because I got it for much cheaper than a TS808.
True 189 or 133 now on Amazon but the mini ts808 is good
I find the 808 has a woodier, oakier fragrance with a hint of flaccidity and a soupcon of the Absurd
I'd hate to think what attributes you would arrive at with a "Big Muff". :)
If you bottled it, you could give it a wine rating.
Yes, and a sophisticated decay reminiscent of a Persian cat fornicating in a sherry cask.
A barrel-aged TS808 will always exhibit hints of vanilla in the nose, while a fresh TS9 is fruitier, reminiscent of black currant. In reality, though, the TS9 only outputs about .02 amperes of black currant.
Its a little bit after birthy.
My ts9 sounds the best.... no one else's comes close.....why???
Cos my mother bought it for me26 yrs ago.
in reality anyone who has had one of these for a year or more probably has the best one for them because they have learned where to put the dials to sound good for them, and they have learned to play to the strengths of that particular pedal, because it is all they have played through!
my mother bought me a Rat, its the best Rat ive ever heard
Kengi Hepworth If my mom buys me anything, it’s the best
You have a cool mother
awww
Well, it’s obviously the tone metal in the casing that makes the difference. Also, the vintage 808s used a different green lacquer, which vibrates at a smoother resonant frequency. That’s why they’re worth more.
Everyone knows tone metal is a myth! I have pseudoscience that backs it up! I even take 1/4 of the variables into account!
Curse you..I just got over the relic/tone scam.
I routed some f holes in mine and mounted the switch with adhesive. Really brings out the resonance of the pedal.
Not a true comparison unless both are tested in different hemispheres in a vaccum chamber during a full lunar eclipse.That's when the magic happens and the different circuitry really stands out.
If you add a Ferrari sticker everything works faster \m/
The TS9 has a more yellow-ish tone where the 808 is more triangular.
Tim McLean oh god I can't stand when people do this
I'd say it has more of a reddish orangish tone and more cubical
For y'all synesthesic people out there
🤣🤣
I don't know if that statement is true, but I couldn't argue that's wrong.
I love the way you're paying ohmmage to these pedals.
They deserve it for joining the resistance
Brian, remember those vintage pedals were wired with unicorn hair. Your test is invalid.
You‘re wrong! They were wired with Jimmy Hendrixs pubic hair...
LOL
That's just a myth, already busted in a previous video.
I'm sticking with the switch. You can clearly hear the smaller switch on the 808. The TS9 has a bigger sound as a result, but some would argue that it's not as focused.
You're all wrong they were made from Keith Richards used needles.
Based on how much I practice, I find that the TS9 sounds like shit most of the time.
“We’re going to take the TS and get rid of the BS.”
My favorite line ever in a gear video!
Mine has to be from a JHS video about the sound of new pedals vs what they “used to sound like”. He said something like, “ it’s time we as a society admit that we can’t remember what we had for breakfast last Tuesday much less what a pedal sounded like 30 years ago.” 😂
Thank you so much for making this video. I've NEVER been able to tell THAT much of a difference in the TS808, TS9 and Maxon versions. I mean I could always hear just a tiny bit of difference when put into a super clean uncompressed amp, but never much. Even different TS9s sounded different to me though, so I thought i was just crazy. All my 'music friends' told me I was tone def. So the fact that this video exists, makes me feel much better.
Also, I love your pedals man. I have 3 so far :)
I had a guitarist who left my band because I used cheaper alternatives. He took the drummer with him too. still don't know what happened to them after that.
@@RockG.o.d They got 'married' & lived happily ever after!
@@DMSProduktions haha probably.
@@RockG.o.d ;oP
In other words, just buy the mini because it's cheapest :D
or buy the parts and make your own!
I heard that the mini has a “smaller sound stage”.
;)
The mini is pretty good!
And it looks pretty cool on a pedalboard actually.
Or buy the Behringer TS...under $30. Same circuit.
They all made a similar sound when placed on top of the amplification head, but the last one had a little less thud.
Lol
Lol blow me... that’s why you have knobs on amp and pedal to increase or decrease thud or whatever you’re dreaming about. In either pedal. Turn you’re knobs you knob.
Oh you mean the TS-JOE... (coffee cup) did have a nice resonance tho
I discovered when I was making a home built guitar just how much variation there is in pots. Some pots read as high as 550k and some as low as 450k. It never occurred to me at the time that this would be the same with pedals but now that you point it out, it all makes sense. Thank you for busting the myth.
This happened when alps and many other high quality potentiometer manufacturers had to shut down. People cared more about low price, not tight tolerances. Tolerances in pots has actually got worse since then.
Now, it is stupid to even think about buying alps pots. They cost more than a power transformer now...
The reason is actually out of their control though. Carbon film as the variable resistor is how it is done, but this process is crude and unreliable. Tolerances are determined after the fact, and thus, the tighter the tolerance, the lower the yield, the higher the price, and people are not willing to pay a higher price.
I once did a blind test with 3 pedals, an original TS808, a reissue TS9 and a cheap TS7. There are differences if you hear them side by side but any of them would do the job. I recently bought 2 "identical" new MXR distortions for 2 boards and tried to match them which was a hard job. One has more gain but less top end than the other and it's impossible to not hear the differences when you put them side by side.
"Take the TS and get rid of the BS". QUOTE OF THE YEAR!
2022 - This channel is where I go if I want a true, no BS, expert opinion and/or comparison about an amp, pedal or anything electronic having to do with guitars. There are so many myths out there that real facts have are starting to become dinosaurs. Great video!
The reason I own a Clarksdale and Ego.
This is why I stopped taking forums seriously for reviews
or youtube
I love the fact that Brian invests some of his valuable time trying to educate us in pedal electronics. I am personal testament to the fact that my tonal preferences change over time and I may like the tubescreamer for a while, then move no to explore another drive pedal (currently OCD). I'm pretty sure it has less to do with the actual electronics and more to do with my varying tonal preferences over time. That said, I always enjoy Brian's video's.The clarity he brings to pedal formats helps me explore their differences and enjoy the next step in my tonal journey.
At one point I owned an 808, a TS 9, and a TS 10 and could detect no major discernible differences between them. I just thought I had lousy ears. Thanks Brian!
I’m a pedal collectin’ kinda Guy, I already have a 35th anniversary MIJ ts808 but I know I’m gonna have to grab one of them old school 81’ editions for a couple grand to get “that” sound I hear on the radio all day. This channel is one of my favorite to watch on TH-cam when it comes to the real deal of what’s what. Keep it up Mr.Wampler
MAD RESPECT!!! More people need to be like you when shooting out stuff and ABing them. Don’t tell or show what is what. Guitar nerds like me hear with their eyes and don’t go after the actual best sound. They like what they want, stubborn and they rarely change their mind.
I used to be the same way.
Nicely shown, I just knew there wasn't any huge differences. Love your tech vids, keep them coming!
My Ts9 has a cleaner sound because I’ve been brainwashed to believe so.
Thanks for these kind of videos Bryan. I always believed the hype about the TS808 and TS9 and I must say after you demonstrated I can't tell the difference. It started making sense when you explained the differences in tolerance of components and the effect it has on the overall sound. Thanks again. Both are awesome pedals in my books.
Man, it's difficult to even tell my TS9 from my SD-1 once I'm going through a gain-y amp with some effects in the loop, and those are *entirely different pedals*. I've always thought anyone who claims to hear a systematic difference between the various tubescreamer models was full of it. Thanks for the vid.
You sir, are quickly becoming one my favorite youtubers/people.
Great video! Pedal Myth Busters! 👍🙂
Another clinical method to compare these pedals is to record a dry repeated control performance and then re-amp it thru the pedals for a tonal comparison.
Here's what I do when buying a pedal: I plug it into my rig (yes, I take my rig to the store - they don't mind), then I see how it sounds. If it sounds the way I want it to sound, for a price I want to pay, I buy it. That simple. I don't give a damn if it's labeled TS Mini, TS 9, TS 808, Klon, or any other such thing. It takes very little time or effort to see the reality of it all: Just take two "identical" pedals off the shelf and A/B them. They won't be identical. The same goes for instruments. As such, just test out what the store has and take home the one that best suits your needs. Leave the labels to the posers.
How have I only just found your channel? It's freaking awesome, thank you for the great content.
The TS-808 is more transparent than the TS-9 in my opinion. It has more "grit" while the TS-9 has more "saturation". Also the Boss Big Muff is more transparent than the TS-808. They all, however, are less transparent than my trusty Red Panda Particle. When Stevie Ray Jimi used that on "My Big Green Tractor" I realized that the quest for true guitar tone would not be completed by one pedal vs another, but by practicing Lydian b7 b9 scales in 5/8 at 200.2b pm. Plug your acoustic into a Line 6 Spider like a REAL man (making sure to have 8 Big Sky's going before it) and have a Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive™ BEFORE the reverbs though. Tone is in the flangers. the phalanges? sorry for the philosophy goodnight
John Reid hahaha
'tone is in the flangers' muhaha thats just about right
🤣
So, the JHS Bonsai is only simulating potentiometer variances?
Usually if you build one yourself the difference between TS9 and TS808 is you solder in 470R + 100k resistors for the TS9 and 100R+10k resistors for the TS-808. What makes a bigger difference is if they are asymetrical clipping or nah (thats a mod).
@@dynamicdissonance4016 Thanks. I think, if i remember five years ago, i was being sarcastic in asking that question.
Brian, I have to admit that I didn't know the difference between the two til I watched this video. I found a used and abused TS9 at a Salvation Army thrift store a couple of years ago (I paid $8 for a box of pedals and TS9 was one of them- Lucky me!) All I had to do was wipe the penis artwork off of the box and replace the old knobs for new ones and its been great.
Tom Tobin The ones with the penis artwork are more transparent.
@@tomcoryell has more HEAD room.
@@tomcoryell yeah. I find the penis artwork really just gives more of that growly tone I'm looking for.
yeah but does it last a long time before the pedal peters out?
We need more of this kind of video. So much nonsense can be dispelled by simple A/B testing under controlled conditions.
Mind blown. So each pedal in each amp is going to be the differences. Amazing. This brings up more interesting conversation about how our brains remember tones/feelings about what we play and when and how we play it. This would be a great blog topic for Jason.
Some pedal manufacturers (and Wampler is most likely one of these) cherry-pick parts so that their tolerances sort of cancel each other out, making the product more consistent while also not throwing away components. Both the 468k and 514k pots are within tolerance, but it's true, they're not going to behave exactly the same. Cherry-picking the variance on the next part in the circuit can go a long way to cancel that out. The parts are slightly different in each circuit, but because they are matched to each other, the end result is quite similar.
I laughed out loud at your 3:28 review. Loved it! So many tone freaks are about minutiae shit that is so irrelevant when a full band kicks on top in a live situation. Great job
The funny thing is, talking about the gain knob’s effect on the TS9/808 is like eating a banana without peeling it. The best way to use these pedals is gain low and the volume boosted in front of a CRANKED amp.
Most comments on forums are bedroom levels through an SM57 which can only hear a fraction of the freqs.
When people test, I suggest cranking and using 3 mics. A bass mic, an sm57 style for mids and a condenser good for highs to capture the air. Then you get the full picture re freqs.
Great vid by the way. Keep em coming.
Not all use them that way.
Yeah well, I don't really like circle of tone after the clickbate video about moeer preamps being as good as kemper etc...he's kind of a weirdo. I remember him being the tock tock guy always edgy etc on forums.
There isn't a correct way to use something, it's about what is usefull to a guitarist I guess and I always love watching videos and picking things up.
The tube screamer is as much a normal overdrive as it is a hi gain boost, in fact it started primarly as a "distortion pedal" of the era if you think about it...SRV certainly didn't use it as a hi gain boost.
Peavey solid states of old can be killer amps though. I've got some hi endish stuff (brunetti soldano mesa amps, peavey tube and other stuff) and I am still amazed on what they accomplished with a humble peavey bandit. And that amp certainly doesn't need a boost.
Gain pot is just one part though. Imagine how different amps sound from eachother. We should be A/Bing different models much less and A/Bing some of the same much more.
No.
For you. Not THE best way.
This is a great video. Spot on with the facts. thank you. also, the 808 is more vintage sounding because the 808 came from the 80s /s
I loved when you set down your coffee (beverage). Possibly the most important piece of gear in that room.
I'm happy with my Joyo Vintage OD. It does that green pedal thing for me. A tool, nothing more.
Crunch2 yeap i love that pedal too. The components are higher quality than ts9 as well hahaha
Joyo pedals are clutch
A Harbor Freight tool can often get the job done as well as say a Snap-on.
Yeah I love the way my LTD sounds when I shred it jacked into my starbucks cup... RAWWWWWWK
Another tip, de-solder the stock IC from the circuit board and then solder-in an 8-pin IC socket, doing this makes it easier to swap-out the IC.
"Take the TS and get rid of the BS"
You're a champ! 🏆
there's a difference and i was able to ID them before the reveal. Is it much of a difference? depends on how picky you are. frankly i prefer just the amp's drive over a pedal
I have a Maxon OD9. I heard that Maxon actually made the TS9 pedals for Ibanez. Great Pedal.
Ibanez is a brand of Maxon.
Great video! Those pots (variable resistors) had a large difference in ohms! So, every single pedal will sound technically different from each other, then we have the same situation going on inside the guitar pits, and then the amp pots! ;)
Ahh the BS difference clearly explained .. gotta love it when an expert sets it straight :-)
ya but 10 years ago he would be doing the opposite so he could sell pedals
Kelly Jackson yeah ok but he's still selling pedals. Your comment doesn't make much sense.
yes but hes established now being part of the myth busting trend to look relevant doesnt hurt him and may mke him look credible to some
Kelly Jackson are you a conspiracy theorist by chance?
He's not saying TubeScreamers are no good buy Wampler's version instead. He's saying is there a difference between them .. no not really. Given that he actually has designed and built well respected pedals for years, I'd say he is certainly credible.
Old vid but thank you so much for being the wealth of information you are for the community. Because of that I have not only purchased your products, but others.
I appreciate that!
The true secret to maximizing the overall tone of any TS9/808 is running a 9v battery in conjunction with a power supply cable, it truly makes ever bit of difference. One more thing, use Energizer because that Rabbit gives it more kick 👍🏽
BUT he leaves little raisins inside it, that have to be cleaned out periodically!
Excellent video! Thanks for explaining what shapes the tone of an OD pedal. I can see that two of the same pedals would probably not sound exactly the same. :)
Not here to dispute anything said here. I'm just wondering what the point of the additional parts in the TS9/808 are if they make no difference.
Just a different way to achieve basically the same thing, I believe.
Fantastic comments section - best I've ever read. Good to know the laugh lives on.
You forgot to factor in the Fourier transformation effect
that occurs when a guitar player has cleaned out their ear canal.
I absolute LOVE people talking about physical facts and effects, rather than opinions and perception! 🤘
This is useful. I'm going to buy a TS. I posted a thread on TGP asking for recommendations. Actually the majority of comments were along these lines, i.e., "don't buy into all the crap, just get a TS9 or a TS mini". There were a lot of recommendations for TS type pedals from other companies, but not many people saying you have to have a vintage 808 or anything.
CNCTEMATIC If you like it, you should also get an SD-1. Same but different.
I play a lot of fast, palm muted staccato note metal. Keeping the palm mutes fluid with just enough attack to stay "heavy" is better suited for the 808. If you want palm mutes that cut to the bone but feel stiffer get the ts-9. If you don't even play metal get the 808.
One chip in TS9 does suck without a doubt, a 7555 digits on it. Put in a socket and install any of the other chips and R104 with a 2.2k ohm R114 with 100 ohm and R115 with 10k ohm.
Electronic guys never can speak sense but they never shut up. Pot resistance was miniscule in the video.
I modded mine 50 times it seems with different things, foil burned off jumper wires everywhere, all the websites are done by lunatics who cannot explain anything... the above was all I needed. here is a photo of options:
media.stinkfoot.se/2010/11/TSmod.jpg
There has got to be more of these things out there. Would love to see more similar circuits A/B like this. Fun to see which ones I can and can't hear the difference between.
They almost sound as good as the Behringer TO800🤣🤣🤣🇨🇦🎸
My friend has a TS9 he bought new in the 80's. I have a reissue TS808 I bought new about two years ago. I compared them side by side - same amp, guitar, settings, etc. - and they sound almost identical. That tells me one of two things. Either I'm tone deaf or the pedals are extremely similar. And Ibanez did a great job of making something new sound vintage.
Great video!
Ibanez makes no money off used pedals. So its in there interest to make new ones that sound exactly like the old ones.
How do they do this?
They simply make the same circuit....
But your TS808 circuit sounds brighter and louder... This is confusing me.
Great video. Love the proto board. I like tone in electric guitar playing, but I’m also an EE and also don’t like the hype surrounding this stuff.
Some of the comments on your video are as entertaining as the video itself! Cool ! Keep it up.
How about the tubescreamer mini?
Probably just sounds smaller because there is less tone metal used in the enclosure.
@@jasonpitre1249 🤣
just to the point, no bullshitting! Thanx! I used to use ibanez TS-9 for years and it has been stolen one day, so I went and bought maxon ts808. What was my surprise that I found NO difference, like at all. Good precise video.
1:11 STOOOP the bus right there.
"Take the TS and get rid of the BS."
Haaaa! Sensational.
excellent explanation. I do prefer the 808 circuit and yes i can hear the difference
All I see is Brian can whip up a quick tubescreamer like making a sandwich and it sounds great.
The TS 9 sounded more like a very sharp Samurai Sword dipped in plum rice wine while the TS808 sounded like a finely honed battle axe used on the set of Braveheart after aging in a solid oak outhouse.
Hoo-boy. Maybe the only thing worse than self-professed "golden eared audiophiles" are "golden eared guitar gearheads". :D Brian, get ready - this could end up as bad as the tone-wood ragewar. lol
I get it though. It can be so crushing and disillusioning when factual stuff like science and engineering calls into question long-held, often beloved pre-conceptions. There's gotta be a psychological term for this...
cheers man!
Cognitive dissonance? Or was your question rhetorical?
@@rich1051414 Confirmation bias.
@@jeffbrown-hill7739 In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. This discomfort is triggered by a situation in which a person’s belief clashes with new evidence perceived by the person.
I think Richard got it right.
well I've made te 808 mod on a ts9 and the change is more on the resistors values which are changing. The sound of the chipset is a legend...blind tests are really helping. Our brain hears just what we expect! thanks!
Not that it matters, but when you were doing the A/B, they sounded different to my ears. Not sure which is which - and doesn't matter to me. Do they sound identical to other people's ears?
Not mine, but they sound similar enough that the huge wall of text is unneccessary. One sounded slightly smoother(more midrange) than the other.
Meh. Sometimes I thought one sounded slightly brighter.
Sounded slightly different to me too. Different enough to make a difference?..,I'd say more to the player than the listener.
I'm betting in a mix they sound almost identical, also the difference could be down to different tolerances in the parts used on the breadboard as well.
This could be the tolerance in that huge part playing the guitar.
Late to the party but the actual difference in the 2 circuits is 2 resistors and 1 cap. I remember the cap is 47nf in one and 4.7nf in the other. Couldn't quote what from the top of my head.
Loved the video, been screaming this into the void forever. Instant sub
My ts9 has such a clean tone that I usually put it in the washing machine with my whites to brighten the wash.
Im glad someone made this video for todays generation. I learned it from a luthier many years ago. saying that models of pedal have hardly perceivable nuances its the same argument that a tone pot makes a guitar better. 99% of people dont seem to realise that the tone pot is CUTTING your tone, not boosting it! in some circumstances, its just one more thing in the circuit cutting the high frequencies. for the record, i'm not saying you shouldn't have one or that having one makes no difference to your sound, but for some types of music (metal rhythm guitar for instance) its superfluous. most of my guitars have a single volume knob and I achieve as much tonally as anyone else but its all in the ears of the beholder (or whatever word means "to listen to something") :) I guess you *COULD* use military grade components that have a far lower tolerance range, but the cost is prohibitive and wheres the fun in that :)
Am I the only one who thought the upper mid/treble characteristic was different in the two modes he played? I still think the ts9 has a brighter character.
Yes you are, because there was no difference. You THINK there is a difference, so your ears perceive a difference.
Great job illustrating this debate. There really is a lot of snake oil in the gear world, if you're not careful.
I could both hear the difference and correctly chose which was which. I've played the TS9 for years and am extremely familiar with the sound (and also an audio engineer). Every time I plug in a TS808 I can hear the difference immediately and I really don't like them for what I do. Having the right drive completely changes the feel of my tone and how I play. Unfortunately, the real truth is that the difference is very small, some people can hear it and others cant (for various reasons), and to those that can it may or may not be important. To those who consider it important, like me, its nearly a deal breaker, so it tends to get overblown as an issue where it really only applies to players with an ear for it. As to the differences between the same models leading to massive price differences, I think thats sillier than the tone/feel difference.
Between the 468kΩ and 514Ω pot, how much would the difference in tone be when used for gain/tone/output level? If my trusty old Maxon OD808 isn't 100% to my taste, would it be worth replacing these pots with ones of lower/higher impedances? If the difference is audible, it could be a nice, cheap alternative to replacing the entire pedal with an expensive different version of the same circuit.
He didn't mention one thing: this parts also change its properties during time - pedals sound different with age. I'm not kidding. So, there is a chance that vintage pedals with the same circuit as a new one will sound slightly different.
Yes, due to component drift, which has the same results as tolerance differences. 😊
_More_ results than tolerance differences. Drift can easily halve or double a component's value -- or worse yet, make it behave totally different hot than it does cold. This is a much wider swing than component tolerance allows for.
Tolerance is meant to include the varying of value with temperature. I don't think it takes into account long-term drift. It's hard to say if modern components suffer from long term drift. We don't use ancient carbon comp resistors any more.
Electrolytic capacitors drift quite significantly with age, especially in equipment made 10 to 15 years ago due to "capacitor plague". If they haven't exploded, it's generally safe to assume they're well out of spec by now. Fortunately, the much lower operating voltage of solid state equipment means that the sound will suffer and perhaps the circuit will misbehave, but it is highly unlikely to harm the user. The same can't be said of leaky capacitors meant to suppress high voltage DC in tube circuits.
So if old components have value drift, how do I know what a vintage TS808 sounds like? By now they should all be completely different. If one sounds good, it's just coincidence that the components changed value in a way that produces a nice tone.
... 02/8/2020: I like the warmer TS808 sound. Can people use the pedal in a solid-state amp and get close to the same sound?
After buying a TS808 to sound like SRV people were like "WTF" when SRV's guitar tech came out and said that Stevie actually used a TS10 for a long time...sorry
The TS-10 has a slightly different circuit, but almost the same sound.
There was a long time when SRV didn’t use a pedal and plugged straight into the amp.
Do you notice any difference between the JRC4558 and the TA75558 chips that they used? I own both, just curious what you thought.
Or maybe you didn't know about them?
I bet Eric Johnson would know which one sounds the best....
He would probably also claim that one would sound better than the other if it had another brand of 9V battery in it, and also which screws that were used to plug the pedal case together.
I thought the 808 sounded a little bit better subjectively
This kind of knowledge is invaluable to an electronics novice like myself. Again it confirms to me the genuineness of your own products to do what you say they will and not just be disguised with marketing hype. Well done.
P.S - my TS9 is darker than my TS808, but they likely changed the pigment. 🤫
That's the biggest solder sucker I've ever seen.
luckyno888 that's what she said
I get note of Carmel in the ts9. But notes of vanilla in the 808.
I know the schematic of the tubescreamer because I built it. I also studied buffers a lot, and the difference between the TS9 and TS808 is in the output buffer. No night and day difference, but there IS a subtle difference and you can definitely hear it if you know "where" (in the frequencies spectrum) to look for it: the 808 as slightly more top end presence and slightly less bass. I could spot which one was which easily at the blindfold test at beginning of the video. No, nobody will be able to go to a concert and say "oh yes, this is definitely a TS9 I'm hearing, it can't be a TS808". BUT if you know your gear, you might prefer one over the other, mostly depending on how your basic clean tone is set (brighter or darker). No, moving the TS tone pot doesn't really changes the tone in the same way. Yes, accommodating with your amp's presence control might give you the same results. But if you previously set your amp tone controls that way and like the result, why moving them to accommodate for a pedal? Luckily enough the difference is very subtle, so anyone can live with one or the other in his/her pedalboard. But people who had the fortune to try both (with their own gear) and have a preference, are not victims of a psychoacoustic bias! They are really hearing that difference (which anyone can hear in the video with a good pair of headphones/speakers, so thanks Brian) so they are not to ban!
You are talking about less then 2% of a sound difference. And those can not explain the prizes for vintage 808. So actually yes, this is about psychoacoustic bias. People believe something is better because other people told them so (see: Klon, Neve 1073 etc etc)
Michael Kupfer As I build my own pedals, I don't care about prices. I'm only saying that the difference is there, and that it suffices for choosing one over the other. So again no, there is no psychoacoustic bias here.
Dude, he even explained in the video that the tolerance of the parts functions make a bigger difference than the 2 different pedals. If you do hear a difference,you are hearing the tolerance difference and would be hearing the same thing if you compare 5 ts9 or 5 ts808 to each other. It's not the pedal that makes the difference it's the quality of the parts. Both use the same quality of parts so it's going to come down to each specific pedals tolerance across the board.
James Crider, the TS I built has sockets to compare those two output buffer resistors: you would hear that difference too! As soon as I will find a way to record in high quality, I will make a comparison video
shredgd5 I just bought a clone Ts9 808 pedal for $27.
Thank you Brian!!! I have 9 Tube Screamer-type pedals (Ibanez, DIY and others) and they all sound almost Identical. Maybe some very small differences. Some because of tolerances but most of the differences I hear are in my head ;-)
I'm so tired of hearing all the subjective terms thrown around when describing sound. Growl, warm, dark, bright, etc.
The general comparisons me and my buddies make is usually a "this sounds shitty" and a "damn that sounds nice." Spending time playing and adjusting settings instead of talking about tone is a really good way to end up with a sound you're really happy with.
I definitely need more of these scholarly videos in my life. well done
I love both but I own neither! I do own a modded Boss SD-1 which I also love...
same here
I almost never comment anything... but just had to this time. I also hate to disagree, but I clearly hear the difference, instantly guessed which one the TS9 was and still prefer it over TS808. Guys don't hate me please... there is a difference, I had both, played them live and really like TS9 better. It also "feels" a bit different when I play... more "responsive".. hard to describe.Thanks for the comparison! Peace to you all!
Yes, but I think his point was that the difference you're hearing has less to do with circuit design differences, and more to do with tolerance values for different components. He could do a side-by-side with a pair of TS9s and people would swear they hear a difference, possibly because the gain pot on one has a Ohm reading of 515k, while the other reads 480k.
All TS's sound like mushy green lumps of midrange. The reason they're so popular is that they correct the Strat's complete lack of mid range and ease some of the shrill treble.
He’s not wrong.
I recently watched the TS-9 vs. Kokko 's "Green" overdrive video and found the differences to be very minor. I bought the Kokko to do some pedal stacking and am pleased with the result. I am pleased with the overall signal to noise even at high gain levels. Great video about a very "over-chewed" subject
I easily picked the first slightly more treble less smooth breakup tone to be the TS9 and the smoother 2nd one was the 808. Every time he switched. I have them both and although the values change on components from pedal to pedal, there does seem to be a consistent audible difference, at least to me. But some cannot discern between Pepsi and Coke so.
I (with the help of some donations) put 3 ts9s in front of a few amps. I could easily see that the pots trimmed at different levels, but this did not stop me from finding the same "sweet spot" on all 3 pedals. The point of all this is that you try before you buy, and go with what YOU like!
There's not a lot of difference, but to my ear, with decent headphones, I can hear a bit more bottom end on the TS808 circuit. I've screwed around with SPICE programs (for nerds), and I can say, objectively, that there is a quantifiable difference, even if slight. Throw in part tolerances, and a lot of that goes up in the air. But more importantly, why does it matter if someone thinks they hear a difference or if someone doesn't? I swear that the 808 sounds a bit creamer, to my ear. And I've done enough research into the circuit to say that's that isn't an unfounded belief. Again, I completely agree that tolerances will probably have a greater effect on a TS styled overdrive then a few resistors, I mean, SRV famously went through tons of them to find the perfect pedal, if that isn't evidence enough. However, that doesn't mean people's anecdotal evidence is wrong either. They might just have better hearing for those special frequencies. I can say that I can't hear a massive difference between a green back and blue back, and jeez do I keep that opinion to myself, because people swear by blue backs. Also, I don't have a lot of experience in person with blue backs, so relying heavily on compressed TH-cam videos for information isn't exactly helpful either. To conclude, I do understand the point of the video, and I don't entirely disagree with it, I just believe that people will have there opinions, and just because you can't understand them, doesn't mean they are wrong. Keep up the good work Wampler!
It matters because people spend money based on what they believe is a design difference when it's a random result of the flawed manufacturing process that does not create all products alike. Then they spend time being wrong on the internet. I'm not paying my ISP for people to be wrong on my internet, goddammit!
And creamy isn't a word that is applicable to sound. You're thinking cheddar.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I have a degree in electronics technology, and was aware of tolerance. I just never considered it in the "mystery" of pedals. :)
Bullshit. They absolutely sound different and can definately have different applications. Component tolerance is always part of the game even with your stuff you don't use 1% do you? I've been playing tube screamers for thirty years professionally. I have two of them both modded. One is a one trick pony very creamy Classic 808 vibe it's a TS-10. My TS 9 has 3 gain mod options and two tone cap options. I have germanium diode, zener and silicone diode clipping on a switch. I have classic 808 and TS-9 tones plus another more distorted selection. I have been a tone seeker for thirty years and have tried hundreds of overdrives. I recently purchased another boutique unit in hopes of getting something more or different I don't even know why I try. My two tube screamers destroy any and all pedals I have ever compared them to. They just put a brand new $200 boutique overdrive in a box in the corner. There are good and bad tube screamers same with Marshall amps and pickups. Heat also plays a big part in how pickups perform. The tube screamer is legendary and IMO still hasn't need topped. I'm playing cranked Marshall's with Les Paul with JB/Jazz or Strat with my own custom wound set at 6.9k RWRP. nothing I've ever heard compares to a good tube screamer hands down.
Brian, a 20 percent gain difference is not that different. Re: king of tone high gain vs normal gain. You probably used bog standard 1n914/1n4148 diodes in both circuits. Not uncommon. Many ts cloners forget the ma150 is a high headroom diode and every ts9 I’ve ever measured had @ .5 forward voltage cutoff where the ma150 is closer to .85. When you refer to “changing a couple of resistors”, I assume you are referring to is the output buffer which would only be heard in front of a pedal with poor input impedance (which was the reason for the change in the first place). That’s also the only time a nine series sounds brighter than an 808. It retains highs better in front of a poorly designed pedal. The higher headroom of the 808 actually does give a more open sound in the treble frequencies which is why the 808 sounds brighter and cleaner in optimum situations.