i like the html method of indicating sarcasm like its so over the top like that's great anyway do you ever think about who discovered cows milk and decided to drink it is so strange but it definetly gets the point across
Unfortunately the police can still arrest you if you say "The last time I tried this my basement had to be expanded just so I could terminate the subject in question /hj" just say "And by the way this is a joke I'm not admitting to locking people in my basement" and just to make it clear I allegedly don't have anyone locked in basement you can't catch me F.B.I!
I've frequently seen it used as a noncommittal way to flirt. Someone you are legitimately romantically interested saying "ugh, I wish I had a partner" and you replying with "yoo, like, I'm right here tho?? /hj" implies that you would totally date them but there's no actual expectations. /hj isn't really useful looking at it. jan misali gets his point across in this really well and I actually think I may stop using /hj at all.
@@BobSmith-tm2kj There's an old joke that goes something like "[addressed to a woman] the Venn diagram of male friends who joke about having sex with you and those who would fuck you at the slightest hint that you're interested is a circle." It's not funny or particularly insightful, but it's relevant to your example.
I swear 80% of the time someone uses half-joking, they're throwing the idea out there to see what other people think and then decide whether they're being serious or not
think it assurs the people you're talking to that no, Im not some stuck-up with a god complex or whatever, I just think im pretty good at X, to me it implies more that a person think theyre specifically good at X, whilst not being as good at other stuff vaugely related
People in the comments are explaining how they use/interpret /hj, when the whole point of the video is that the problem with /hj is that everyone uses it differently and it's hard to tell just from the text how it's currently being used. Like the fact that you have to explain how you, individually, use it, is the whole problem!
We can use them in all sorts of ways, but there aren't multiple definitions. The first two definitions in the video are misunderstanding the concept. It's not saying anything about literalness. It's saying the statement is a joke, but ironically true. And the third is a common use for them, not a definition of them. The sentence means he is making a joke about buying orange juice, but he might still actually go buy some. The example is missing the context of the joke.
@@theneoreformationist tone indicators are meant to explain tone in a concrete way, not make it more difficult to discern; the fact you need "context" is the more reason that it is completely useless, that's what tone IS
@@uraynuke ??? The joke is only confusing because it is missing context. You are only hearing the punchline. That has nothing to do with tone indicators.
@@theneoreformationist If it has nothing to do with the tone indicator as tone doesn't actually convey the neccesary information then what is it even used for here other than wasting space? and hearing just the punchline to a joke you're missing defeats the entire point of a joke this isn't even communication at this points, it's deliberate miscommunication (and i mean it as someone who DOES get half-jokes)
You aren't understanding what I'm saying at all. The tone indicator is not useless. It is there to communicate that although the statement is a joke, he does actually need orange juice. The context is NOT required to interpret the meaning of the tone indicator. The context IS required to get the joke. We know exactly what the statement means from the tone indicator, but we don't know why it was said. The tone indicator is the only part that IS helping us understand the sentence, so it certainly isn't useless.
As an autistic pwrson, this video was very opening to see whay my fellow autists see surrounding tone indicators! I wanted to share my thoughts not as a "youre wrong" situation, but to start discussion! The way ive always interpreted /hj is the idea of "jk, unless..." which your mentioned on your slides, but not in the manner i think about it I have it go something like this "Omg, we should totally go to the mall and spend all of our money this weekend /hj" with the /hj being the indicator that it could be a joke if it wasnt neccesary, or could be serious if you were interested
this is why i love the way Tumblr's "(derogatory)" meme became a form of tone indication on there. i've used it everywhere since i found it cause it's just a much better tone indicator system than the / system.
It's also inherently easier to understand since it involves writing out the entire word rather than expecting people already be familiar with the abbreviations.
Better in every single way … clearer AND way funnier AND you aren’t forcing people to remember 10000 million (hyperbole) combos of vague characters… , but in limited character count places /(whatever) tone tags are … okay.
In my experience (as an autistic person), "half-joking" just means "I'm serious (but not entirely literal; IE "the sentiment this expresses is genuine") about this, but phrasing it in a way that's usually reserved for jokes because I'm ashamed that I'm serious about this." Like, someone will say "I'm about to scream... Half joking, of course." and that means "I'm in serious emotional pain right now, and I need to express that, but I don't feel comfortable enough with [whomever this is being said to] to actually talk about it", which... Well, maybe it's just because I'm autistic, but I can't formulate a response to that.
I usually interpret it as basically meaning "There is truth to this, but I'm exaggerating for humor", like "Gonna do all the homework at 11:59 on the due date"
I often read it this way too. Like I feel like the orange juice example could mean "I am going to buy a lot of orange juice. Not quite an absurd amount, but an embarrassingly large amount of orange juice. So I'm framing this as a joke so I feel less embarrassed"
I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about accessibility feature vs internet slang. People like to say that they're for accessibility, but in my experience they're commonly used as internet slang, and if they're used even a little bit as internet slang then that renders them useless for accessibility.
It's also an allegiance signifier - internet slang already combines the roles of communicating and identifying yourself as in-group, but that effect is compounded when the internet slang has a 'purpose' tied to what your group considers a fundamentally virtuous and exclusive activity. Among some of the circles where tone indicators are common, it is held as a prominent belief that making things accessible is important (true) and that people outside the group never do this/object to doing this (less true). Thus, by using the slang, you show members of your ideological community that you're like them.
The few times I’ve used them is when I’ve rewritten my sentence/statement a few times and can still trick myself into misreading my words in ways I don’t want them to be understood. I think communication in general breaks down over the internet
I want a Death Note episode where we see Kira's thought process as he struggles trying to interpret "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" after L wrote that on his Onlyfans page
My issue with tone indicators that even in the best intentions they can sometimes come off as extremely infantalizing. I am an autistic person, one time I posted a piece of art to a discord channel and got multiple replies saying something along the lines of "I love this! /pos" and it made me feel like they thought I was too stupid to be able to parse the phrase "I love this!" as a positive comment.
I mean, sure, but you have to concede that there are probably some people who might parse that as sarcasm without the positive tone indicator because of low self-esteem. It's infantalizing because it's meant to be obvious to someone who doesn't get it, and I think getting offended that someone used an unnecessary tone indicator is simply not a reasonable reaction.
I've interpreted "half-joking" (tone indicator or otherwise) as meaning "My beliefs/preferences are in this direction, but I am exaggerating the magnitude" so not-literal but sincere. I personally have never heard or seen half-joking (in tone or as an indicator) used to mean "literal but funny".
I find the tumblr-ish way of putting a tone in parenthesis afterward a much easier way to convey tone. like if I say "Bastard (affectionate)" instead of "Bastard/hj" it makes much more sense that what I'm trying to say is meant to be endearing and not taken seriously, but also partially true. Usually I'd say it to a friend or pet that sometimes gets on my nerves but I love them for that. It's also not perfect but it's how I usually get my point across since I'm very bad at finding the words I actually want to use and instead find an approximation of what is in my head. Autism feels to me like trying to sift boulders through a pasta strainer and if I say my intended meaning or tone it works much better than some vague letters that can't be as specific as I need.
bastard/hj never makes sense, Because if they want to mean it endearing People should just be using /j It's not serious and it's kinda funny, so it's a joke.
@@BramLastname | Bastard /j could be implying that they aren’t really a bastard though. Bastard (affectionate) makes it clear that they are a bastard but that them being a bastard is not necessarily a negative trait but rather a charming one.
@@AnEmptyTunacan Well first of all, Personally I'd just say "You little Bastard" without any indicator, Secondly, if I knew someone well enough to call them a bastard affectionately They'd understand what I meant with /j.
@@BramLastname | Oh, I assumed this also included when people talked about characters and such because the original comment mentioned tumblr-like messages & I see that type of labeling used mostly on posts not directed towards a real person or directed towards a person who is not being directly talked to 😭 If it’s a friend then they probably understand what you mean tho yeah 💀
I never put it together that the “(affectionate)” thing is also a tone indicator, but you’re right, and I very much agree! The flexibility is way better. I’ve also heard my fellow autistic friends use that format when speaking out loud, because it’s also super helpful for getting across the information that we might not be successfully communicating with our faces/tone/etc. Saying something like “that character is so pathetic, affectionate” is much clearer to me
@@ZeroRelevance easier said than done. A lot of ppl are very inclined to know everything and to know what others mean about them. It’s still difficult to not care it’s an active process not something that comes naturally but I agree sometimes it is better not to give it too much thought
The way I interpret /hj, and regularly use it, is "I'm exaggerating a little bit for the sake of humor, but for the most part this is how I genuinely feel". It lets me get my point across without having to be so blunt and up-front with my feelings, since I'm usually a bit too open for my comfort. EDIT: Okay turns out I paused literally 20 seconds before the definitions were explained
But... that's just a hyperbole no? Wouldn't calling it one be much less ambiguous? hyperbole noun exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
@@tatri292 I think hyperbole can be more broad where in this context, hj is a way to communicate passive aggressive feelings. This is how I use hj too and I see it as passive aggressive most often.
@@tatri292 The problem is there is a part to interpret literally. The whole thing isn't hyperbole - to use the example, a large amount of orange juice is literally being bought - but the reality is framed with a joke.
I'm 62 and autistic. When I was told that young people interpret a period at the end of a sentence as indicating a terse or dismissive tone, I gave up all hope of attaining fluency in Modern Internetese.
I'm a youngin, so I think I can maybe be of some help. A period at the end of a _solitary sentence_ is seen as intense, but *not* when in a paragraph. I will try to explain why! (Note: when I say "you", I mean it in the general sense of the word, not you in particular. This isn't a criticism and I don't want it to come across that way) I find that a lot of my autistic friends view things as much more rigid than they are, so I feel it's appropriate to explain the where and why of this issue. Communication and language - much like everything in life - is fluid and everchanging. For a long time periods as punctuation were used in works where there are long paragraphs and ideas needed to be separated clearly, which the period does an excellent job at. Periods have been a staple of serious literature in academics and storytelling, and they still are today. Because of this, the period has an association with seriousness and formality Casual conversation is very, very different from formal writing. Formal writing requires rigor and articulateness to convey exactly what is meant, whereas a casual setting requires and inspires comfort and looseness to facilitate people letting their guard down to enjoy their time together (This is also why alcohol is used for socializing, as it forces people to let their guards down). This distinction between formal and casual settings is where the period runs into some communicative trouble Casual conversation, before the age of the internet, wasn't really had through writing. Even letters weren't truly casual. They took time to write, send, receive, and then reply to, which added a small gravitas to them that simply doesn't exist in a face to face conversation (emails are similar, so I won't include them here). Once texting came into existence, casual conversations were now being held through writing as well as speech. A new form of communication is a huge stimulation for change in how people communicate With texting now on the scene, the comparatively massive wait time between sending a letter and receiving one back was gone. In a regular conversation, you think a thought and then say that thought. Texting allowed you to do the same thing in a written form: you think a thought, write it, and then send it as an isolated sentence. The isolated sentence I mentioned above! If you think of another thought after you've already sent one, you can just send another text. These appear as two isolated thoughts in their own bubbles and, unlike with huge formal paragraphs, do not require a period to separate them at all. Most people text each thought as individual messages as opposed to writing a paragraph. Texting, at its core, is a casual communication tool, and so the rules of casual conversation I mentioned above are expected to apply by people using it. Because periods don't need to be used in a single sentence text for their usual purpose, using one is seen as a deliberate enforcement of the formality associated with books and papers Periods add a finality to the intentions of the message that closes the door to comfortable conversation. Using a period is seen as deliberately indicating that your guard is up, much like a parent using your full name instead of your nickname when you are in trouble. They make people feel like you aren't interested in talking or like you aren't comfortable around them because you are maintaining formality where it shouldn't be I'm unsure if you noticed, but I deliberately exclude a period from the end of each paragraph. I do this because they serve their purpose of separating sentences within the paragraph and, because the paragraphs are clearly separated already, aren't necessary at the end of one. That is how I text! I personally like to write 2-3 sentences per text message, and so I use the period appropriately while still avoiding the implied formality of the thing. I've never encountered the problem of people feeling like I'm being obtuse or blunt because of this method I hope this was helpful/informative! Thanks for reading :)
@necroseus This is the best explanation anyone can ask for, I love it! However, I frequently downgrade my tone by substituting periods for other dividers-when I get long-winded in casual situations, I don't want to be seen as attempting to launch a formal debate with someone, lecturing them, or suddenly pulling them out of the conversation to speak with them harshly or something like that, so I end up spamming line break (excellent too for avoiding multiple notifications/unreads/pings); this escalates to absurdity in situations where I can't use line break such as to avoid flooding, instead using kaomoji and subsequent recapitalization (only in cases which would already have used a punctual tone indicator), using the arguably more formal semicolon, or deciding to memorize the alt code for the En and Em Dash in what is possibly the most counterproductive anti-formal-tone maneuver I could possibly have taken That paragraph is an exaggerated but plausible message structure for me. Avoiding periods in single-sentence messages has bled over into paragraph-writing for me over time, or so I suspect. While the above is obviously deliberate, I avoid periods subconsciously in what starts as two- or three-sentence train-of-thought messages and then find I must consciously continue finding ways to avoid it when adding more and more sentences. Ironically I think I would probably use more periods if I *did* let my guard down, defaulting to doing exactly as you explained by removing the redundant period where the "Send" button already exists Thanks so much for so concisely putting it, I've never seen it more well-said! I'm almost certain I'm not the majority, but just wanted to share :3
@@necroseus , it was indeed! The autistic rigidity idea rings true to me. I'm uncomfortable leaving a sentence hanging in ambiguity for the same reason I'm uncomfortable with things like "let's talk next week". I want to be clear that the sentence is done, just like I want to know the day and time for the talk. And both of those desires irritate neurotypical people. Communication is a very interesting puzzle.
@@mrosskne , and it's obvious to me that this was a rude and unhelpful comment, but hey, we all have our blind spots. Thank you, though, for drawing me back to this thread so I could notice the other reply; I must have missed the notification for it.
For me its “what im saying is actually true, but its mainly a joke since idrc” for example: “why do you have more views than me?! /hj” they do actually have more views, thats not a joke, but the joke part is that im not actually mad, it doesn’t rlly bother me like I made it out to be *as a joke* tho I probably should just use /j
thats completely wrong. Half joking is when you say something thats kinda true, at least in your opinion, in a slightly abraisive manner. its more "playful", but still something you believe. In real life this might be when you rip on your friends for something weird they do. Youre saying it in a joking manner, but the fact is that they do that that thing. Thus its a half joke. If you write hj it means you agree with the statement you said, its just being said in either a harsh or comedic way. I genuinely dont know why yall struggle to understand this.
As an autistic person I admire your commitment to understanding people... my solution is just accepting I will never fully understand what everyone means
The thing is, that's how it works for non-autistic people too. just to a lesser degree. people are just inherently ambiguous beings - aside from the very most "computer-like" neurodivergent folk, *everyone* operates and communicates with some degree of ambiguity, bias, or predispositions to certain interpretations and etc and they don't even realise it a lot of the time. /hj is ambiguous because "half-joking" is an inherently and *purposefully* ambiguous thing people do. Sometimes it's done as a coping mechanism or mask for your insecurities, sometimes it's used to "probe" your audience and find out how they react to certain kinds of statements, sometimes it's done so you can say something you shouldn't and have plausible deniability, and that last one only works because neurotypical people ALSO aren't sure what it means all the time. It's not a bug, it's a feature. And sometimes it's just straight up misused because people just don't think that deeply about the things they say in general. That orange juice is example shows it being used because yeah, that person was just using words thoughtlessly and wrong - i'm neurotypical and I have NO IDEA what the hell they meant in that paragraph. I see lots of neurodivergent people who come at this whole problem of understanding social cues and the like as if everyone is, underneath the ambiguous speech patterns and social pleasantries/formalities/etc, a person with clear ideas and intent that is communicating those thoughts as they want them to be perceived. But this is simply not the case.
@kanyetheofficial those absolutely dont ruin the joke, they let you know that it is a joke when it might otherwise seem serious due to the lack of social cues over written text. If /j ruins the joke, then using a joking tone when saying a joke in person would also ruin the joke. Sarcasm is absolutely *not* supposed to be funny when you're not sure it's sarcasm (unless you're using it as an insult i suppose), that just makes you unsure what a person means. That's why in speech we make sarcasm obvious with tone and inflection. Exclamation marks are not obvious signs of sarcasm either, they're signs of... exclamation. They *can* suggest sarcasm or facetiousness but that depends *highly* on context and subjective perspective. And if i see someone else genuinely suggesting vomiting random emojis onto a post as an indicator of sarcasm im going to have an aneurism Also edit but i just realised you also suggested caps lock as an indicator of sarcasm or joke and i think that might have just been so absurd my brain just blocked it out for my sanity's sake at first. Because nothing says "sarcasm" than the written shorthand for loudness, anger, or authority. Obviously. Those are the things that i associate with sarcasm for sure..
@@marcog.verbruggen674 I completely forgot to reply when you replied ages ago, but I really appreciate the thought out response and it is kinda comforting to know that at least my communication issues at least can effect everyone too, I've always assumed people without this disorder had a much easier time understanding and communicating
as an autistic person, one of my favorite things to say when i don’t understand is i’ll, out loud say, “i’m gonna pretend i understand.” it’s silly and goofy to most people, and lets them know effectively that i don’t get it, and won’t be spending too much energy on getting it. pretty sweet if you ask me.
I am genuinely so proud of myself that by the time I made it to the end of the video, you have sepperately invented the exact same method that I use instead of using tone indicators I just type things in perenthesies loL (like this) (I know that wasn't an indication of tone I just wanted to do it) I only really use /j, and even then only when I say something and then realize it can be interpreted as mean so I have to quickly save myself by clarifying loL
By far my favorite use of tone indication is the (affectionate)/(derogatory) distinction, because in addition to disambiguating words and phrases that could be compliments or insults depending on the intent and context, e,g, "this is the most autistic video essay on the internet (affectionate)," it can also be used for humorous effect to imply that the speaker has some strong opinion about things that you wouldn't normally expect someone to have strong opinions about, e.g. "I am putting on shoes (derogatory)," or to reverse the meaning of a word or phrase that normally has a fairly unambiguous meaning, e.g. "Guel Jeturk is such a useless fucking bastard (affectionate)," which I also think is a very funny thing to do.
100%. i have a note on someone i talk to regularly online that's just "duck lover (derogatory)" bc he spams duck emoji and its such a helpful distinction lol
I absolutely love the bracketed full word tone indicators they are my beloved (affectionate) They allow remixing language for poetic oxymorons in ways that without them, _even spoken language_ wouldn't be clear about. They extend potential use cases of nouns and adjectives, and even if you're using them with matching words like I did, the extra emphasis helps sell the degree to which your opinion on something is strong. They're a really funky tool that allows doing even more with language in a way that the standardized tone indicators can't do because of having to be standardized. If I say /srs, all it does is convey that I am serious. But if I start using (adored), (appreciated), (lovestruck), it conveys both the seriousness _and_ the intensity of the sentiment!
I have only seen /hj used in flirting, where they are being serious about an offer to date someone or saying something risky, but are using /hj to offer the person they're flirting with an out, essentially "I'm being serious, but if you don't feel the same way, you're welcome to interpret this as a joke"
as an aro/ace person (that also doesn't socialize much) this baffles me, like why would you need to give them an out? isn't that the point of flirting, to politely and non-directly ask if someone is interested in you? or are you saying that /hj can literally mean "i am flirting, are you interested?"?
that’s the worst actually, because how am i supposed to know they’re serious. what if i’m interested but it turns out the romantic part was what they were joking about? what if i don’t know that the part that is serious is that they’re flirting and i miss the subtext completely (。。)
@@bluecheetah001 quite frankly a lot of people flirt without the intention of it meaning youre "interested" in moving things further. And giving someone an "out" can be just as simple as leaving the conversation open without pushing them in a direction directly. It can give them space.
I crossed that threshold at 6 minutes. I'm not even on the spectrum and I don't get why "half-joking" is a thing. It to me sounds like a shield for when someone wants to say something seriously, but is afraid of being judged for it, so they smokescreen it as a joke to get around it.
Honestly, "severely overthinking" is the baseline for many autistics. We have to constantly be on watch for obscure rules that most people don't even think about... and then we stumble upon issues within in the rules that essentially nobody's thought about. (It's for this reason I detest most forms. The questions are worded terribly and if there's limited options it's even worse. I keep wishing I could be let loose on them to improve them.)
@@willofthewinds3222 That's basically it. Half-joking is a way to express your ideas while keeping the option of hiding behind humor open. It's used when you're wary of the sort of reaction you'll get. It's effectiveness wildly varies, as sometimes you'll get the complete opposite of the desired result.
@@Ricardoromero4444 What is sounds like to me is cowardice. If you mean it as a joke, then clarify that its a joke. If you are being serious, then mean it. /serious
i am an autistic person who is not confused by the /hj tone indicator or the concept of half joking. i struggle quite a bit with sarcasm and some jokes but half joking is one of those things i get. AND YET i have watched this video four times and i am still baffled by the “absurd amount of orange juice” example. it may be the most confusing /hj use case ive ever seen edit- like jan misali i also do not want to hear the theories of what this /hj use case could mean. i promise, ive already thought of it, and the ambiguity of a million different potential meanings is why this use case is a confusing and worst possible example
I am ND, but luckily I usually have a pretty easy time figuring out what people mean. Sometimes I'm wrong, but usually not _that_ wrong. When the orange juice example was first stated, I thought I understood what it was saying. Then the thought process was explained and I was like "okay yeah I guess this isn't quite clear". And then I tried thinking about how I'd explain it and then realised I ACTUALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT AT ALL. This sentence has transcended reason and is now so wild to me. I have so many questions for that anonymous person.
I think they're just buying slightly more than a reasonable amount of orange juice, and the "/hj" is unnecessary embellishment. Based on the phrase "I literally am half joking," I suspect the asker isn't putting that much thought into their words, b/c, like, wtf does that even mean lmao, which I think makes it most reasonable to assume the "/hj" is thoughtlessly superfluous. Regardless, that ask is ironically a really good illustration of Misali's point lol
as an autistic person, /hj has never been a problem for me personally, because I've always interpreted it as "kind of" or exaggeration for comedic effect, and I've almost always been able to tell the two apart with ease. Surely there's a better way of making that apparent (like, literally saying "kind of") but it works for me and my friends. I think there might be a tone indicator for exaggerating..? I honestly should start using that. edit: apparently there is and it's /hyp for hyperbole. I didn't even know of the word "hyperbole" prior to this so it makes sense I wasn't aware of that one (english is not my first language.)
in my case as an autistic person me and my friends seemingly use it as a way to express asking for consent or opinion on something. atleast thats how i interpret it. example “im gonna send this embarrassing photo to my friend /hj” meaning they want to but only if you are ok with it. if you arent then they can say it was a joke anyways
the fun thing is hyperbole is a specific type of exageration but not every type of exageration is hyperbole. The only consistent information gained is that it shouldn't be taken literally imho. So even "I am going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice" with /hyp or /exa I don't know if the person is going to buy a normal amount of orange juice or none whatsoever. Maybe it was hyperbole for how thirsty they are, sometimes context helps but not always. People have different feelings associated with each of those indicators but they still aren't universal experiences.
This is exactly how I interpreted it. "I'm going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice. h/j" just means that their gonna buy like 2 things of orange juice and are joking. It's really not that difficult to understand, I'm sorry. I'm autistic too and it's very clear that they're simply not buying an ABSURD amount, just a bit more than normal and are joking about it.
I’m also autistic, but half joking sounds super sarcastic to me and sort of rude, that or it feels like I’m being condescended, then again all tone indicators make me feel condescended personally /hj is just the one that frustrates me the most
The way I interpret the "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" sentence is that the person is literally going to buy an irregular amount of orange juice (2-3 gallons or something similar) but since they think that the mental imagery of buying an absurd amount of orange juice is funny they expand the amount of orange juice they say they are going to buy in a hyperbolic sense (an absurd amount, which would be like 10-20 gallons)
Agreed, as someone who doesn't use a whole lot of tone indicators and doesn't see them used, that's(assuming I knew /hj meant / half joking) how I'd take it.
The way I interpreted it was "I'm going to buy orange juice, but the joke is what if i bought 100 bottles of it" since peoples definition of /hj and definition of "absurd amount" are different as abstract concepts, it makes it difficult
Yeah that's how I see it as well. Even the example of "I'm going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice" falls under that They probably are going to buy orange juice, but the joke is that the amount is exaggerated
I understand it as they mean the statement completely sincerely but want to leave a way to back out of it. I wonder if anyone in this comment section isn't on the autistic spectrum (I'm in it too).
i definitely agree. tone indicators are really confusing, because i dont know every single one of them, i have to look up “what is /pos” or “what is /nf” etc. but that also makes me think “why not just type out the full words” like /pos = /positive and /nf = /no pressure and literally its not that hard to type out one or two words, you dont have to shorten it! my goodness…
I remember being in a discord server once where using tone indicators was a rule. As an autistic person Ive never had more confusing and ambiguous social interactions anywhere than that server
as an autistic person that it literally the stupidest idea i have ever heard of... making rules about the way you have to communicate will always make sincere communication harder because it's being influenced by this weird outside element that says "NO YOU GOTTA SAY IT DIS WAY >:( "
I use /hj regularly when joking about plans with someone. I usually use it as “this is a joke, but I wouldn’t be against it if you’re down.” Like “you should just ditch school and come over to my house /hj”
This one makes the most sense to me, I think. It's a way of allowing something to be a joke but also allowing someone to take it seriously without that pushback of "hey now, I was just joking, I honestly didn't mean it." Like, "I've got fifteen boxes of Girl Scout cookies, go ahead and take them all before I eat them! /j" would indicate that no, you are not allowed to confiscate all my Girl Scout cookies, regardless of my stated diet plans. I said it *purely* to be funny and I still want these cookies (and might be joking about how many boxes I bought, too). And you have to figure out a socially acceptable amount of cookies to request/take. But the /hj version would indicate that hey, if you feel up to stealing all my Girl Scout cookies, I honestly wouldn't be mad about it, and I leave the results in your hands as to how much you feel up to taking. I think? ...but yes, human communication is ambiguous enough without adding deliberately ambiguous stuff, isn't it? I mean, even if someone phrased a thing this way, I think I'd still be worried that I'd be overstepping bounds to "take it at face value" as it were. Augh.
That's how I use it too!! I usually use it when I say a really absurd opinion about something like "lemons taste way better when you eat the peel too" and things that will *sound* like a joke but are actually something I do
I feel like, “haha jk… unless” conveys this idea so much more succinctly and also opens up the conversation to see what people think of the idea. Side note, “you should ditch and come to my house /HJ”, would be the funniest thing to misinterpret
as a neurotypical I've always hated /hj because 90% of the time I see it used it's to be passive aggressive or rude without consequences, like you can just be negative but "I'm also joking!!"
i like how tumblr has started using things like (affectionate) and (derogatory) even if its used sarcastically sometimes, at least you dont have to learn a bunch of abbreviations for it
@@PH0B0PH1L1A in my defense my brain categorizes things that happened within the last few years as "recent". deltarune came out recently. so did undertale. so did owl house what do you mean its getting cancelled didn't that just come out Recently? also ive been on tumblr since 2015ish so if its post-superwholock era for me its recent in my brain. apologies
I'm autistic and tone indicator's annoy me a lot of the time, I know some people who use it after every sentence and use it in places where the tone is extremely obvious and make me use it in those situations and it makes me feel like a child
The meaning of a half-joke kept feeling intuitive to me, but every time you dove into explaining what it actually implies my vision started swimming and my brain started questioning everything I ever knew.
What infuriated me most is that none of his "interpretations" of the orange juice example is the correct one. The correct one is that the speaker is doing comedy by exaggeration. 1) He is going to buy orange juice (true) 2) He is going to buy a lot (true) 3) The amount is *large* (say, two gallons) but not actually *absurd* (twelve tanker trucks full?) so exaggerating the amount is the joking part. So the sentence is "true", just not "literally true". I.e., half joking. Or, as become the norm these days, to mark the non-literal part with "literally" to indicate the joke. :P
I watched this video months ago, and it actually made me lose trust in my own intuitive understanding of /hj. I stopped using it at all and began overthinking it. I think /hj ends up being like very person-based, like sarcasm. Just identifying when something isn’t being entirely serious (even if there are many different ways it can be unserious) and fitting this against the class of unserious ness that the person using it tends to is helpful to me. Even though I suppose we have pretty different feelings on this, I love this video! It’s extremely well written, and unpacks it in a very helpful way.
@@jonathanccast i guess so, but there should really be a tone tag like "[citation needed]" in randall monroe's book "what if?", meaning "you should take the meaning seriously but the intent is that it's pointless to mention it because it's obvious and that's funny because it's not something you would expect someone to require to mention"
You can communicate with your future self by writing something for you to read later! Like a journal, or notes that you should review. But whether your present self and future self are different people and therefore "more than one person" is a philosophical question I'm not prepared to defend right now--
In my experience you can usually interpret "half joking" as saying "Please interpret this as genuine in any respect that makes me look good and ignore it in any respect that makes me look bad."
By way of example, the /hj on "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice" means "I really like orange juice and am going to buy a humorously large amount of it, but don't take me as some freak that has a refrigerator full of orange juice". "well I am usually right /hj" means "I'm acting full of myself in a funny way but actually I do think I'm usually right but don't take that as meaning I'm full of myself or something". I can't imagine anyone putting a /hj on "This cat video is the best cinematic work in the past century", because saying that doesn't really confer positive or negative connotations on the writer, so there's no need for it. For NTs, selecting words for communication is not just about conveying an idea to someone, it's also about managing your reputation and casting yourself in a good light, and saying you're half joking is a hacky way to absolve yourself of having to work on the latter.
@@qufanat Idk, imo it’s usually about hyperbole and not about attempting to look better. If someone says „going to buy absurd amount of orange juice /hj“ it’s about buying a lot of it but also not the actual absurd amount. Yk… hyperbole. I could say „I ate so much I will die /hj” and hj is not about reputation but the fact that I hyperbolized the effect of me overeating. I am not actually in danger but also it does hurt and it is unhealthy. I never seen /hj used as a way of showing yourself in a better light, but tbh I rarely use tone tags and mostly see them on TikTok or smth so idk lol
After much deliberation I have decided that "I'm gonna buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" means "I really want to buy an absurd amount of orange juice, but I probably won't" with about 80% confidence.
I'm 30 and autistic. I've been using "/s" for the past 20 years. I don't believe I've ever used another tone indicator. "/s" is just classic internet slang and I won't stop using that one, just like I'm not gonna stop using stuff like "brb" or shortening "you" to "u". I never really thought of "/s" as a tone indicator though. It just feels the same as any other slang that might have specific punctuation involved. Anyway I have no intention of ever using other tone indicators, I find them clunky and confusing.
/s has a point, it can cause issues if sarcasm is unclear. All the others are pretty much useless. /srs is maybe useful, but it's generally nicer to just put "seriously," or something like that within the sentence. Sarcasm is special because spelling it out kills the sarcasm. Anything other than /srs is people just being unclear when they don't need to be.
As a neurotypical person, (I think) I always use “half-joking” to mean your first definition. I use the phrase to more or less indicate hyperbole when it might not be obvious. I.e. as a choir director, I sometimes tells my choristers things like, “if you don’t practice, it’s going to be a complete disaster at the concert. I’m half-joking, but please practice”
Ah in this example I thought it means like "it's not going to be a send in FEMA disaster but but it might still feel pretty disastrous in the context of a concert"
@@block_head_steve240 But your intent is not to guilt trip people into practicing to avoid an embarrassing disaster, that's why you're half-joking. You don't actually believe people will put off practicing to the point it becomes a complete disaster.
in my opinion, it feels like /hj is just used when someone has an opinion but they're scared to fully commit with it so they hide behind it being "partly serious" here's the math: "i really liked this video" + "i feel like the people I'm talking to won't, but if they do that would be awesome" = "this is the best cat video of all time /hj"
Yeah I agree, from my perspective as a neurotypical person half joking is when you say something serious in a joking way. So I could say "of course, I'm always right /hj" which is said like a joke but I actually kind of believe the underlying sentiment.
when I first saw /hj I thought "hand job", which makes more sense than "half-joking". I think half-joking is a nonsense concept. Either I'm joking or I'm not.
This made me feel a huge well of empathy for those with autism. This seems like so many hoops to jump through just to understand what someone is tweeting about. Listening to him describe in detail why /hj is annoying (I'd never really given it much thought, I just understand what it means intuitively) gives me immense second hand frustration. Why indicate the tone if the person who needs it most gets confused and has to go on a wild goose chase (possibly never-ending) just to understand what you mean?! It feels like the tip of the iceberg. I wish I could donate some of my social intelligence to you ASD folks... /gen
People make a huge deal about how tone indicators that make jokes unfunny help autistic people, yet still insist on using an absurd number of abbreviations and acronyms that help nobody.
if you want to help us autists, stop using indicators and write with clarity instead. also remind people when getting into misunderstanding-based arguments to simply ask for clarification. that's all it takes to solve the same issues that tone indicators badly try to solve. encourage better communication. autistic people can learn to read tone too, but this becomes harder when there's less good examples to learn from and tone indicators are constantly offered as crutches instead. they're good short-term, sure, but long-term it just makes everyone have to go along with it instead of encouraging people to improve themselves
As an autistic guy, I have attempted to use tone indicators and have found that it’s much easier to just clarify later if it becomes an issue. For example (albeit a heavily exaggerated one), saying “I’m gonna go throw pool noodles into your room at 3 am” is much funnier without a /j at the end. At least personally, I start focusing on the tone indicator instead of the joke. Also, my opinion on /hj is, I’ve seen it once and immediately went “wait, what? Like, how? What’s that supposed to mean?” And then 10 minutes later I was recommended this video.
Agreed, not autistic( I don’t think at least) but time indicators ruin the mood for me tbh. I have a hard time understanding tone sometimes but I would just be like “ wait are you joking or?” Or “ do you mean that genuinely?” Like idk it’s just weird to me if someone were to be like “ omg I’m so sorry your grandma died /gen” like yeah I fucking hope it’s genuine
Yes, I think it might be more funny because imagining someone ACTUALLY doing that is hilariously random and somewhat cursed. Also, same. I saw /hj and didn’t know what the person was saying, then saw this video lol
this is literally the first time i'm seeing /hj ever. TIL. as a linguist I feel like ambiguity is so inextricable from language that anything used often enough to become colloquial, despite being made with intentions otherwise, will inevitably become as muddled and multi-faceted in meaning as the rest of language. striving for complete clarity and lack of ambiguity is an entirely different mode in english, and not one people are quick to use on the internet- especially when often I feel it can draw mockery or other negativity (because it' can be othering compared to people more 'fluent' in really jargony internet lingo)
Yep. A big part of slang is intentionally (or subconsciously) excluding those who aren't in on it. People used "bad" to mean "good" while fully knowing what "bad" was meant to mean. Given enough time, everything becomes a shibboleth.
I also like that slang lets you be MORE specific as well depending on context. It's certainly more confusing for people who aren't in the know but if you say someone's "tilted" for example there's a certain amount of nuance to the specific mental state of the person involved (angry/annoyed to the point where it's going to affect their behavior/performance.) vs just saying "upset" or "angry".
People fighting this natural evolution of language is a massive pet peeve of mine. You can't stop it people, this is how communication has always worked.
People get mad about "literally" but miss words like ultimate, terrific, fabulous, fantastic, fatal, awesome, terrible and awful, all of which have had their meanings change somewhat drastically. Actually I literally get angry whenever an advertisement describes their product as the "ultimate" anything.
This video is...... _insanely_ correct, actually. It really sucks how the literal purpose of tone indicators has been completely lost on people. It's for people to understand you, and because it's become so mainstream and memey, there are now too many tone indicators for anyone to keep track of, and some _aren't even tones._ I don't need tone indicators, but a lot of people I know do, and I just..... talk literally with those people. _Because they don't trust tone indicators anymore._ It sucks. I'm glad someone kinda big is talking about it, hopefully it starts at least a conversation, and NOT a fight.
Agreed. Personally I dislike most tone indicators (with exceptions like /s and /j) as they’re just way too complicated for me to understand what most of them mean, even if I know the literal definition of the indicator as is the case with /hj and other more recent ones. That said, I’m also coming from the standpoint of someone who reads and writes a *lot* and as such I’m used to more conventional sentences in general, meaning things like tone indicators and letter censorship (like th*s or especially th.s - seems like trigger-blocking programs would be so much more practical for everyone) make sentences hard for me to parse properly. I always find them to be clunky and they impede communication more than they facilitate it, and the natural shift in the meaning and use of the tone tags only makes it that much harder to figure out.
tone indicators are not suited for the ethos of the internet. a jokey, memey collection of people with often purposely ambiguous and carefree ways of communicating. they have their place, but you can’t blame the internet for seeing that these people are trying to use something static and congruent and so they go and flip it on it’s head. sarcasm was the act of flipping straight foward sincere language on it’s head as a way of being humorous, you can’t blame people for seeing sincere indicators and flipping them on their head.
Tone indicators were never about accessibility. Their origin is closer to in-group slang (, [/s] or being used between people who knew how to code for their webpages). Personally this is the first time I've heard of them being used for inclusivity. While I know the basic ones are useful, it's very obvious that most of them weren't invented with that purpose, and the people pushing that narrative always seem like they are doing some OG virtue signalling (not the conservative buzzword but the original definition where people signal at a token act to gain praise without caring for the problem).
@@sockjim9016 I'm terrible at understanding tone both IRL and on the internet, so I use tone indicators in case someone else is every day just as confused by everyone as I am. Wouldn't using the actual words be better than just /s and /j? For example, if I write a sarcastic comment about a green thing, I do so with: That's so red! (sarcasm).
14:07 it's not the amount of juice they're buying is ordinary, and thus unfunny but despite saying that they're buying an absurd amount of juice, they're buying a normal amount of it (as indicated by /hj). this makes the amount of juice they're buying funny, since it's the opposite of what they said they're gonna be doing at least that's what i think
I'm going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj means that they are going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice, but they think it's funny that they are going to do that. It's a form of modern meta-irony boiled down to its purest form. It's intentionally ambigious as you arn't sure how much of their orange-juice buying is ironic, and how much is sincere. It's ironic and sincere at the same time. Which is why meta-irony is so hard to get for neurodivergent people, it's an illogical vibe, that's the point.
@@thegrandnil764 I as a neurotypical person have very strong opinions on meta-irony humor. The logical extreme (and this does happen) is that, when no one can tell who's serious or joking, and on what level of irony they're on if it is a joke, there is no difference between serious or joking - they're the same thing. I *hate* it, and I *hate* it when people use it.
as a neurotypical person i interpret "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" as them saying they're gonna buy a lot of orange juice but not enough to actually be absurd but that's where the joke part comes from where they say that it is absurd
As an autistic person, I thought so too. But I don't understand how that would ever be funny, so why not just say that you're going to buy a normal amount of orange juice? I just don't understand that sentence anymore once /hj is attached to it.
@@29..47maybe it’s like some sort of in-between for a “normal amount” vs “absurd?” Like 20 gallons is a bit absurd, but 5 isn’t really a “normal” amount?
@@29..47 maybe we can get another example. lets say there's a video of someone saying something absurd, and someone responds with "i'm gonna scream /hj". its in the sense of "im not gonna scream out loud, but now i really want to" maybe? i saw this example in some other comment, maybe it'll help
@@sketchstudios345 I think that I get what it means, but I still don't understand the point of it. I don't understand why someone complicate what they mean instead of just saying that they want to scream. It seems like someone wants to say "I want to scream", but they are changing it to "I'm going to scream" just so that they can add /hj to it.
The fact that every comment trying to define "half-joking" is defining it slightly differently from the last only makes me more confident that it doesn't actually mean anything.
The non-committal definition is probably the best definition of “half-joking”. The way I understand how “half-joking” works is “to make a suggestion/statement non-committally, believing that it won’t be taken seriously despite it being an honest suggestion/statement”
It really doesn’t, I don’t think I ever really use it outside of my friend groups where we all kinda have an unspoken definition for it becahde we’re all overthinking idiots who can’t form a cohesive thought lol
But before people even used it as a tone indicator in textnit was a phrase used in vocal conversations. You'd say something like "im gonna lose my mind with all of this paperwork! Im only half-joking." Which would imply that you don't intend to lose your mind but you see it as a real possibility.
I’m glad that I have very consistent interactions with only so many people on the internet, because it’s much easier to grasp what they’re implying with their typing, and hopefully vice-versa. Usually what I mean is very straight-forward, it’s exactly what I’m saying, but being able to not do that with some people is really nice.
okay but i absolutely love overthinking stuff like this, it makes me so happy im not the only one who does this. But everytime i try to vocalize these overwhelming urges about certain topics i just get "dude its just ___, calm down" but like... I am calm, im just thinking in depth about something that interests me a bit
I find myself going into those long rants of talking about something I like as well! I think its an overall positive though, it gives me something to keep my brain busy and happy, I think it really gives a person the drive to do the best they can at a thing!
That! 🤙The "I am calm" part especially omg. Like. People often interpret that I'm genuinely freaking out about stuff in a bad way, but it's like no I'm just...excited? 😂 I like to make things more interesting for myself so I overthink and exaggerate the urgency of things a lot I guess. ~:~
Calm down doesn’t imply you are angry or aggressive. If you are being overly excited and someone says “calm down” they are using that right because being overly excited is the opposite of calm
my (not autistic) sibling sent me a chart of what had to be at least a hundred tone indicators, some of which used the same EXACT letter, and others meaning the same exact thing. tone indicators as accessibility tools become useless when they get that complex, because if a person has to take extensive time to understand or memorize what people are saying, that means things are LESS accessible. using the iconic tumblr adjective in parentheses is more successful because that's something that is always clear and anyone can comprehend.
Like (derogatory)? Lmao I just find those hilarious for no good reason, I think there's certain useful ones like: /gen, /srs, /hj (though I haven't watched the video yet so I'll see if my mind), /j, /s, /neg, /pos and beyond that they probably get redundant or unhelpful
anything done on the internet will eventually get redundant and overly complex, what bothers me the most is when people use /srs on sentences that have literally NO ambiguity. Sentences that in no context could literally ever mean anything else.
Y'know, the :-) emoticon was first invented basically as a tone indicator for when someone was joking. It's a very funny story of miscommunication, you should look it up! But it shows that this problem has been around since the dawn of the internet (and even before). I feel like emojis can still kinda be used as tone indicators in this way, but :) can mean so many things that it's not as clear as /j or something.
Yeah, and it expands on just how many ways you can adorn your sentence (positive)! Pretty much any adjective! And you don't even need to create an entire code for the meaning to be understood
This is why i prefer the tumblr trend of saying things like: "stupid show (affectionate)" which is them saying that they hate the show, but sarcastically. They actually love the show. Vs. "stupid show (derogatory)" which means they REALLY dislike the show. It lends itself to sarcasm and hyperbole really well, and is already a form of internet slang in itself. And people generally elaborate on what they say further. But yes. /hj is confusing bc of its ambiguity in the first place. Like maybe if you're going to use the tone indicator format and want to be purposefully ambiguous, maybe /amb?? Or /abg??? But half-joking meaning two contradictory things?? USE OTHER FORMS OF INTERNET SLANG. Like. If i was going to actually buy an absurd amount of orange juice and i was poking fun of myself I'd say "I'm going to buy an ABSURD amount of orange juice lol". But if i meant to say it genuinely id say "Im gonna buy an absurd amount of orange juice. not kidding." And if i was expressing the opposite, that i wasnt going to buy a large amount, but i was kidding, id say "brb, gonna buy an absurd amount of OJ" followed immediately afterwards by an edited meme of the dril help me budget tweet with my OJ expenses as like $70,000. Or if i WASNT going to buy any, and I wanted to show sincerity in that i wouldn't buy anything, id say "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice (lie)" THERE'S JUST BETTER WAYS TO DO THIS THAT ARENT CONFUSING
You've really wrapped up all of my opinions on tone indicators in one 18 minute video, in the conclusion especially. As an autistic person it's really frustrating to see people get mad at me for not using or understanding these things (because I'm pretty confident in my online communication skills) while in the same breath claiming that this is supposedly to help the autistic community.
As someone who's noticed how much more this contributed to entitlement to being catered to as well as even MORE lack of proper communication due to people purposefully misusing these tags to lie through their teeth, as well as being someone who values straightforwardness due to my autism, this is exactly how I feel about tone indicators.
@@sekiezkogg people saying this is for accessibility then using them incorrectly irritates me so much, like saying "people who drink milk should die /g" under the good faith interpretation sounds insane, but if you take it non literally, they're being sarcastic and the "/g" is them _sarcastucally_ reinforcing belief, which would be fine, except that it's designed to always be taken in good faith, if you can only _sometimes_ trust the face value meaning, it's not an accessibility feature any more, it's no better than just regular text...
Interestingly enough telling disabled people that something is helpful to them does not in fact make it work any better than it does. /half-joking in the sense that the sentiment is true and the humor lies in the absurdity that someone would believe otherwise. wow, just /hj really is quite useless, I needed an essay for that.
I'm not autistic and I don't often come across tone indicators, but I'm really connecting to this problem. The same thing happens to me when I see someone wink. It causes me to invent one interpretation after another, with too little information to raise one interpretation up or rule another out. I end up paralyzed in this big knot of indecision and ambiguity. Days will go by, I'll ask friends, and I'll never figure it out.
@@myrmidion44 This literally happens to everyone. The internet has made you all believe that any conflicting situation one can find themselves in must be a sign of mental illness. But in reality, everyone struggles with the exact same things from time to time.
i keep rewarching videos ive watched from you before and then being taken aback by alk the other videos of yours that I've watched but were entirely unrelated in my mind
I have a friend who would use 🙄 as his thinking emoji, because "thats how he looks when he thinks". Certainly caused a lot of miscommunication haha. It's the little things we dont stop to think about
I used 🤔before for thinking that’s something odd or peculiar, but I can also see it being used in a sarcastic or suspicious way. Example: Is that *really* just orange juice you’re drinking? 🤔
i think /lh (lighthearted) and /nm (not mad) are the most useful tone indicators for me. i have hard time telling when someone is genuinely upset or if they're jokingly upset (ex: "i hate you" used non-seriously) and i can sometimes interpret simple statements as trying to pick a fight so /lh makes situations less tense
/lh has been a godsent for me lmao i need people to know that i mean something in a chill unserious way. emojis are cool too but arent always what im looking for message wise
@@birdie8006 people having been shortening things over text for a long time (lol, lmao, btw... you get the point) so this isnt a new concept or anything. the original tone indicator, /s, has existed for several years
/lh and /nm feel so passive aggressive to me ngl. like the fact you felt the need to specify that you're not mad just makes me assume that you *are* mad
@@JoeBurrowSucks to be fair, my partner and I rage together on discord over life events and often we have to specify it with /nmay (not mad at you) because we are both on the spectrum as well as me having BPD. Having tone indicators helps me to separate my personal feelings from the situation, to manage my condition.
the jan Misali channel is the only channel we can name that will, without prompting, drop an 18 minute video essay about something, and we're already on board for it before we even realized it was incoming
i wrote a comment like 3 months ago or something about how i couldn't even make an actual comment about the concept of "half-joking" because everything was already addressed, and that's still basically true because what i'm about to say is very related to what you said in the video, but while i was rewatching today i could feel that i wanted to say something, and it ended up being a lot more than it started as. it isn't really supposed to be helpful, just my own personal thoughts, but i guess it could potentially be. i personally believe that "half-joking" as a term _started out_ with the express purpose of being unclear - like, to me, the first few times i saw it, that's basically what it was to me, because every time i talked to someone who used the term (not even talking about /hj) they just didn't seem like they wanted me to know what they meant. indeed, this is your 3rd definition of /hj, plus it's also my own specific interpretation of "half-joking," which is why i said this was basically addressed - you defined my interpretation, and said everyone has their own. i think there's more to say about /hj3, though. there's a number of reasons why they wouldn't want me to know - waiting for a response, not sure if it's true, still wondering whether to do something related, don't want me to be sure, even for no reason, etc - and those are mostly valid for me, but it's unclear by nature and by that point i have to figure out which reason it is by talking further. "/hj" further complicates things because "/hj" is distinct from "half-joking" _to me_ in that it's (usually...) being used in an attempt to make something more clear, which makes it much more likely to be one of the first 2 definitions, forming a tree of meaning that is very large for something specifically meant to make things more clear. half-joking in its full form also has a non zero chance of meaning /hj1 or /hj2, just like "/hj", so it's entirely possible it was just a "simpler" communication solution for me to always interpret it as intentionally unclear - 1, it being unclear is something i won't bother reading between the lines for, and therefore it _can_ mean the other two. 2, /hj1 and /hj2 boil down to "this is true"/"this is ultimately not a joke" or "this is not true"/"this is ultimately a joke" for me, and i can usually figure out which of those it is WITHOUT "/hj," and if i can't, i can ask. this, of course, as the title states, makes it clear that /hj as a clarification tool is worse than useless - and this brings me to the last conclusion i had while having a good think about this, which is that i now believe that /hj was added to the tone indicator pool as an actual indicator of tone. IF you don't have any type of issue communicating, it is possible to use inflection and pacing to let the person you're talking to know you're not only making a joke, but not being fully clear whether you're joking. this is probably harder to notice than sarcasm, both in real life and through text, which makes it sad that this could have had a real use (edit: the "real use" being "clarifying the intent" of being unclear instead of clarifying the deeper intent) if we lived in an idealistic world where everyone had the same definition of "half-joking." that's all
@@tsu08761e but if the ambiguity is the point, why would you use a tone indicator (tool for clarifying intent) to obscure your intent? How much orange juice are you buying???
@@ClaraDeLemon well they are probably buying a lot but a realistic amount of orange juice Like a normal amount is 1 maybe 2 packs An absurd amount would be like 30 packs but basically no one can buy that amount So buying a /hj amount of orange juice would be maybe 5-6 packs In the orange juice case it's basically saying "I'm exaggerating for the purpose of a joke"
@@ClaraDeLemon the function changes depending on the sentence, but the ambiguity isnt actual confusion over the whole sentence, its like a shield saying "adding this makes me able to not be seen as weird because im being hyperbolic/silly/etc"
@@MortalWizard I can imagine several instances where you could be buying 30 packs of orange juice for something, a quantity you would obviously find absurd, and use /hj to indicate that you appreciate the humor in the situation even though it is really happening, that's the second definition that was mentioned in the video
On the topic of “an absurd amount of orange juice /hj”: I think the half-joke is a case of using absurd as an overstatement. Buying 12 L of orange juice isn’t literally absurd, but it is a lot. This is used to differentiate from the joking tone indicator which suggests you’re not buying orange juice at all.
I don't think that's quite it. The speaker in the oj example _is_ factually buying an absurd amount of orange juice, or at least an amount they would self-describe as absurd. They're saying it in a "joking" tone, but they're entirely serious (in a self-deprecating kind of way).
see but like what is that indicator providing? is it just saying "please appreciate the humor of this situation"? functioning essentially the same as a laugh track or a 😅 emoji?
@@nothayley it is saying that its not literally true. "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice" = "im going to order a 1000 gallon tanker of OJ on amazon". "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" = "im going to the store and buying 20 packages of OJ, amount thats unusual but not absurd". /hj = "interpret it as half the intensity"
@@iivarimokelainen how do you quantify half? how do you know which part of the statement is being dulled in intensity? are they in a purgatory between buying and not buying orange juice? how is this the optimal way to communicate whatever you're trying to communicate?
jan Misali trying to figure out the meaning of "i am going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" is the highlight of my day edit: sorry to be that person but this is the first time something like this has happened... MAMA I'M FAMOUS~ ✨️✨️✨️
Yeah, I still hate that 1, it's less than useless, if you're saying something to me as a compliment just use nice words! say you're smart instead of you're a nerd /pos. and /neg is even worse, like if you're being an asshole, how weaksauce are your insults that a clarifier is needed?
Jan is legit experiencing tone indicators like one might experience learning a foreign language, except in this case, the foreign languages in question are Tumblr and Twitter, which DEFINITELY makes it worse.
It's funny to see someone using Jan as if was a first name xD The "jan" is a Toki Pona word for "person" and it's used before people's names, so "jan Misali" means simply "a person named Mitch" (or something like that, Toki Pona changes non-Toki Pona words).
@@Kizaco yeah tru, in my experience, since tumblr doesn't have a character limit, when someone's being sarcastic they can just say "I'm being sarcastic here btw" or put [sarcasm] in brackets like I do. They have much more utility on twitter because they're short, and easier to fit into the character limit, so I much less often see them used outside twitter in a non-joking manner (I think its pretty interesting!) Oh and there's one I used just now, without a character limit you can just explain your intent in plain text at the end of your sentence! Language is so cool
I'm glad you touched onto the "tentative statement I'm willing to retcon as a joke if it meets criticism and I change my opinion about it" use of language. I feel it's increasingly common and very interesting.
I feel almost as often as it is used that way it is used to say you agree with the statement (or maybe a less extreme version of the statement), but you are making a self deprecating joke about being the kind of person who would fall back on the fact that they were joking. "I'm better at basketball than MJ lowkey /hj" could be mean the following: 1. I think I am good at basketball 2. I am playing a character as a self deprecating joke who thinks they are better than Michael Jordan 3. This character would retcon this statement if they are pressed on it
Yeah. Seems especially common with people who know they have an opinion most consider weird or awful but want the ability to pretend they were joking if called on it. Very similar type of plausible deniability to dogwhistle phrases. Half-jokes are a thing, but usually only among *very* close friends with an intricate knowledge of your beliefs or sense of humor IRL, and if used with strangers, then almost always clarified with an actual quick sentence “I’m mostly joking, though i do sincerely think x or y,” not just tone-unless ambiguity is the point.
I feel like "half-joking" generally applies to situations where one doesn't feel comfortable expressing certain thoughts, and hints at the truth behind a mask of humor. For example saying "wow that old car is sadder than I am /hj" would indicate a self-deprecating joke that hides genuine feelings of low self-esteem
the problem with this is that stating you're half joking is outright saying that you are feeling down, thus entirely removing the point of masking w/humor at all.
@@jessehunter362 It indicates that the statement is to be taken seriously, but not as something that is actionable, i.e. I want to communicate the sentiment that I'm a sad and miserable person, but I don't want you to respond to that communication
the thing about the /th indicator is that it is too absurd to be used unironically, but if you used it ironically then that would be doing a disservice to the intention of tone indicators. like if all ur friends are okay with it then it probably doesn't matter but im not sure about it lmao
@@anty. solution: use two indicators, /th for the threat, and a /s to indicate the /th is sarcastic or create a new indicator /ths to combine the two /hj to be literal: i dont actually believe this, im writing out some potentially logical extensions to the tone indicator system as a way of demonstrating how absurd it is
how i usually interpret and use /hj is basically "i agree w this but its also kinda exagerating and a joke" yknow? like another person said a shorter way of saying "for legal reasons this is a joke"
When you said "a logical contradiction and perhaps a type-five paradox" I had to pause the video just to smile really hard into space. I genuinely love these videos so much. Please never change
“I wonder how long it will be before we’re just straight-up narrating ourselves using quotation marks and dialogue tags,” she typed, hoping this sentiment wasn’t expressed in the latter 2/3s of the video, which she admittedly hadn’t watched yet. The joke- or maybe it was a half-joke, she thought cheekily- felt solid enough, and Sunfish didn’t want to risk it being shoved out of her mind by another thought. ETA: It was hubris, she later realized, and twenty-six replies in, it seemed she was reaping what she had sown. Sunfish’s notifications were lost to these replies, each tap of the bell an exercise in disappointment. But how could she ask them to stop? These people were only having fun. Perhaps it was the highlight in someone’s day. Who was she to take that away from them? Still, she had to wonder if one of these enthusiastic young souls was carrying this torch forth into the wilds of the internet. Had she been the Frankenstein to some lumbering creature wreaking havoc in another comments section? Was this even a valid allusion? Did the Creature really do anything wrong? Sunfish hadn’t actually read that book.
"haha yes", he wrote, amused by the last statement while being absolutely incapable of coming up with something funnier. "I gotta say this is one of the most original comment I've seen in a while". Pleased by his remark, he laid back in his seat, re-reading his words to make sure everything was perfect /hj (
@@fernando47180 "lol good one," Fernando wrote with a light chuckle. Wanting to be part of the comedic writing, he thought of how he could narrate his own reaction, but laziness struck his brain like a plague, blanking any attempts at finding coherent narrative writing. "The least I could do is let them know," he thought, to which his brain agreed to. "too lazy to follow the gag, sorry." That should do the trick. After considering proof-reading - and laziness striking again - Fernando opted to click Reply and call it a day.
Alex read the comment and laughed in her head. That was clever and she wondered if she could continue this joke in the replies. Looking below the message, she realised there were several responses already and clicking the button marked '4 replies', her suspicions were confirmed. although it may not be original, Alex decided to join in anyway and began to type into the box with a gradually developing idea. "Alex read the comment and laughed in her head." she began, thinking it best to begin not with a thought or speech but a description. she continued, "That was clever and she wondered if she could continue this joke in the replies. Looking below the message, she realised
In my experience the ideal use case for tone indicators is *within a group of people that all know each other at least in passing and use them consistently*. Which seems to me must have been the original intended use case. As soon as they escape into the "wild" they simply become a part of the language and are therefore subject to all the standard ambiguities that they're meant to help avoid.
And I think this is especially true of /hj. When said to a stranger it could mean anything, when used between a group of friends who already know each other it's a lot easier to decipher
Exactly how I use them, that's how my friend group has stuff like /dlb (deliberately obtuse, pretending to not get the joke so as to play along) which makes absolutely 0 sense outside of the context of our conversations and I would never expect some random person to get it. Tone indicators are sadly language.
oh absolutely, 100%. the only tone indicator i use w strangers is "/s" or possibly "/j" specifically because of this ambiguity, but w my friends i use "/hj" and "/lh" and "/gen" and "/pos" etc. regularly and there they all actually tend to work. sometimes when i meet new people who use these same tone indicators it takes a while to get a sense of what they mean by them, but once i've known someone for a while i can get pretty confident about what they're meaning, a lot quicker than i can learn to pick up the same patterns in terms of, say, tone or expression cues or stuff like that.
I just don’t like them in general. If you can’t write a sentence clear enough for people to decipher and understand ESPECIALLY in a friend group, I’m unsure why you are talking in the first place.
THANK YOU for making this video! I'm not autistic (but I'm also not nuerotypical) and literally everyone around me thinks that /hj is intuitive. It isn't. At all. I now have a nice little video to send to people to explain why to them without struggling through an argument about it. Thank you.
I think the ambiguity feels like a courtesy for neurotypical people, because we're able to derive all sorts of meanings from the single statement *intuitively*. Thank you for explaining how much of a nightmare it can be if that process isn't intuitive! I never would've thought about that if not for this video
I'm so happy you pointed out that tone indicators are functionally used as trendy internet slang. Like yes it's great that they are used for accessibility and clarification in many circles, but sometimes it seems like just a halfhearted way to clarify intent with as little effort as possible. edit: to be clear I don't think that like, nobody should try to make their intentions clear, or that if people aren't making themselves clear with a statement they shouldn't say something. Obfuscating intent or being ambiguous is just kind of, something that people do, for lots of different reasons, and I don't think that's going to ever change for a lot of people. And even when people aren't purposefully doing this, not understanding or misinterpreting things is just a human experience I think. idk man socializing is always going to be complicated and it's definitely good to try and make ourselves clear, but it's never gonna be 100% unless we all merge our consciousnesses together like in The End of Evangelion.
I think this is what bothers me most about the current use of tone indicators. Increasingly it's just a lazy way to cover for an inability to be clearly understood. If you're unsure about how a comment might be interpreted or don't want a negative reaction, maybe you shouldn't say anything. And then there are people who use them deliberately to obfuscate what they mean so they can be little shits but not be called out on it. I really don't like such trends, it's like a soft version of trolling behavior.
Tone insicators just genuinely suck. If you want to make yourself clear, then just write more to show the intent and meaning. Write, like, two more sentences with the same tone. We have the means to convey sarcasm through text by using extended vowels and absurd repetition. Humans making even more problems for themselves for no reason... yet again.
The only time I've used /s was as a joking way to indicate that interpreting my post as anything other than sarcasm would be silly and that the sarcasm should be self evident... So yes, it's a potentially good idea ruined by people like me.
@@Bobbias No, you're using the tone indicator correctly. If you intended something to be taken seriously and used the sarcasm tag then you'd be ruining it, but really what you're doing when you add it to an obviously sarcastic statement is just introducing people to the usage of /s to indicate sarcasm in text-based forums, which can only be a good thing really
Yeah :(( For me personally, I just find them sorta confusing, so I usually rephrase my statement to avoid confusion, or clarify my statement later if I didn’t make myself clear already. However, if there is a person that indicates to me that tone indicators are useful to them, I will absolutely use them for that person!
I LOVE YOU DUDE!! i'm diagnosed autistic and honestly tone indicators SUCK, because every time someone sends one that isn't /j or /srs, i don't know what they're on about, and i have to google it, or stay in the dark. it's not helpful.
This video comes up on my feed again every once in a while. And not being a user of tone markers myself, I’ll have completely forgotten about the concept. So my brain just goes “oh cool a jan Misali video? …about handjobs? Oh right”
I usually see /hj as "I'm being hyperbolic", but it is kind of a floaty thing that doesn't mean much on its own, which is what tone indicators are supposed to be here to help with.
@@WhirligigStudios there is in fact a hyperbole indicator (/hyp) that I've seen used within one friend circle at least a couple times. Definitely better than using /hj for the same purpose imo.
In almost every case, /hj is being used to convey that someone is being hyperbolic. This thing is happening or I feel this way, so I am going to intentionally exaggerate what is happening or how I feel so that it is now funny. In the case of the orange juice example, the reason why /hj makes more sense than /j, /j /g, or /g is because they are intending to convery that hyperbole. /j makes no sense, because /j implies they will not be doing that action, while /g makes no sense because they do not actually intend to buy an 'absurd' amount of orange juice. /j /g doesn't make sense because it implies that they will both buy a large amount of orange juice and buy none at all. This is why asking "which half is the joke" makes people think you are missing the point. Neither half is a joke. It does't neccessarily even mean 'half' of it is a joke. The same way /s is meant to convey sarcasm and /j is meant to convey playful intent, /hj is meant to convery hyperbole. It's just there to say you are exaggerating. This is why, in the case of the cat video example, most people intuitively will default to the first provided definition. What is being exaggerated is most likely "greatest" so they will assume you meant that is was great, but not the greatest, hence the half-joke. This is why it's difficult for people to properly explain why /hj is intuitive. It's just not as obvious of an intent as sarcasm or joking, but it is a seperate and distinct intent. The reason I said "almost every" case is because that third definition exists. People will intentionally use strong wording so they can play the "how serious did I mean this strong wording" game. That's what I call a Schrödinger's joke, because it is both a joke and not a joke until an outside force observes it and makes it's opinion known, where it collapses into one of the two options. In this case, using /hj is actually good faith, because they are acknowledging their position instead of forcing people to interact with them to find out.
I somehow never considered the fact that buying an "absurd amount" of something could mean buying a "zero amount" of it ; and for some reason, this is exceedingly funny to me. That why i would chose this meaning : it's the one that amuse me the most . So that's one way to do it : if the statement is not meant to be clear (or meant to be unclear), no one, in my eyes, can complain that i could go and misinterpret it, gleefully and with wild abandon.
Reminds me of the fairly common idea in atheist-theist exchanges when morality comes up, and the theist asserts religion keeps people from raping and murdering, and the atheist says "You're right, I raped and murdered every person I wanted to - which is exactly zero persons".
The orange juice example strikes me as "I feel a need to put an indicator on everything I post so I'm going to slap a useless indicator on a statement that is already fine due to the use of the word 'absurd'" The culture surrounding obsessive tone indicators creates need for indicators on otherwise fine statements.
Fr I hate the overuse of them “omg I love this so much /gen” like what other way is there to interpret that statement it feels like I’m being talked down to
@muddybuddy3598 I thought that abt like 80% of them, like if I said "I'm going to kill your entire family" but I forget the /th like how would you interpret that? like without a tone marking is it just meaning
@MuddyBuddy sometimes I'll use it when I'm giving a compliment which I'm afraid might come across as sarcastic. like "wow that looks GREAT" that could be read as sarcastic or genuine and I'd hate to hurt the feelings of someone I'm complimenting. there's a tiktok trend going around which I hate where someone who looks or acts out of the ordinary but is confident posts something and all the comments are insults disguised as compliments. I'll use /gen especially then, because I'd hate to be lumped in with that crowd when I'm trying to cheer someone up. I do get your perspective, but personally, as someone with anxiety I get really anxious about being misunderstood. using /gen on a compliment reassures me that I made myself as clear as possible.
Was it meant to be a joke or meant to be serious? That “half joke” thing doesn’t make sense there. How can that specific statement be a joke but also genuine? You either buy a truckload of orange juice or you don’t.
While what you’re saying is literally true, I don’t know if you’re really arguing in good faith here. Calling it “culture” sounds similar to “cancel culture,” which makes me think (please correct me if I’m wrong) that you’re decrying it as entirely useless, which is an argument that ableist internet funnypeople stuck in post-gamergate 2016 tend to parrot. Again, I’m not entirely sure if that’s what you meant, so please do clarify.
Lmao the comment above this one for me is literally someone's experience with /hj getting someone into a mentally abusive relationship with their crush
@@Baenstelker ill copy it for u: Ava Combs "/hj is the bane of my existence, I’m not even exaggerating either. In 2021 I reconnected with a middle school friend and started talking to him regularly. I had feelings for him and he confessed to me he did too, before taking it back a week later. I was ultimately very upset but I started to just think about him as a friend again. However, he would send me these flirty messages and talk about us hooking up, I would respond accordingly as I still had feelings, but afterwards he would say that everything he said was /hj. He did this multiple times, leading to a mental abusive relationship, getting me to send him photos under the idea he liked me and actually wanted to be with me before taking it all back with a /hj. He would do this often, leaving me confused every time we would talk and he would say very explicit sexual words and send nude photos. He abused the half-joking tone and made it into something it absolutely isn’t supposed to be used for. I never used tone indicators before and trying to figure out what was a joke and what wasn’t when the very mixed signals were going on. He ruined a good year of my life and anyone who uses tone indicators in a malicious way like this is cruel. Don’t be like this guy."
@@bojdrak Oh, God. I'm so sorry, that's disgusting. Your poor friend. Are they okay, now? And are they comfortable with this being shared? I don't want them to feel bad.
Talking to you would be so fun /hj I'M KIDDING, the whole previous sentence, including the tone indicator, was a joke :P I actually do think talking to you would probably be awesome cuz things would be way more clear than when talking to other people. Which is always great.
The /hj tone indicator is an interesting one. It reminds me a lot of what people in a different circle refer to as post-irony/meta-irony. It's intentionally ambiguous, and that gives a unique feeling to how you are speaking and what you are trying to convey. In the example given about orange juice, I interpreted it as "I am buying a larger than normal amount of orange juice, so I will use hyperbole by stating that it is absurd and letting everyone know that I recognize that it is larger than normal, but I am still doing so sincerely." It's almost like "I know that I am saying something that can be interpreted as a joke/outlandish, and I am expressing it as if it were a joke/outlandish to let you know that I know that it can be interpreted that way", no matter if they mean the statement seriously or not. It can be used to intentionally mask your intent, thereby saying nothing and deflecting harm, but can also be used as a way to recognize absurdity itself. It's like meme culture, how most "funny" things from the outside seem like they have no set-up and are just "loud noise" and "fast movement". But in most cases the set-up is the fact that you have lived on the internet and have thus gotten through the in-joke barriers already, the loud noise and funny movement is either usually a reference to an in-joke or an absurd and unexpected punch-line that is different from what was set-up for the audience. This type of expression is purposefully ambiguous and hard for outsiders to understand, but those who do connect to it enjoy it a lot, usually as a reflection of their own complex feelings/experiences.
But... they already recognized the absurdity by saying absurd. The /hj is redundant when / is suppose to add meaning and clarity when it is already clear. Meme culture isn't a double negative when you mean single there is still structure to it even if you have to understand it.
This is also how I interpreted the statement. I almost feel like /hj should only be used in closed circles where everyone has the same knowledge of everyone else’s opinions and inside jokes (not that I think it’s wrong to use it elsewhere, just that you shouldn’t expect strangers to understand). I also agree with the part about “just say what you mean”, but I also know from experience that people usually dislike it when you explain a joke (not completely sure why 🤷♂️) and so they may use /hj to imply “there’s more to this than a surface level inspection may provide, but you can safely go about your day without looking too much further into it since it wasn’t important”. All that to say damn, I feel like there should be a word for that specifically… @HBMmaster
I interpreted it as being equivalent to the ‘I am going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /j /srs’ case. The sentiment seems to me to be ‘I’m going to buy a huge amount of orange juice. I’m just joking. Or am I?’ Which means that /hj is bad at what it’s ostensibly for because *even if you want to be ambiguous*, it’s actually ambiguous *how* you’re being ambiguous.
That rant at the end about how they're all abbreviated resonated with me on SUCH a deep level. I remember getting peeved about how all these indicators are abbreviations and how not everyone knows all of them, and how one of them can mean two different things, and someone got on my ass and called me ableist for it. Bro, I'm autistic. You're doing these things for *me.* It really irritated me. The only reason I can think people abbreviate them is for Twitter character limits, and even then, just break it up into two Tweets if you can't fit it all into one. Nobody's going to care that they have to read a second Tweet. What started as a thing to help with accessibility has become a gatekeeper to communication. Yes, the key to the gate is a Google search away, but there shouldn't be a gate there in the first place. Just clarify it in your original text so I can understand you from the get-go!! Anyway, great video! You summed my thoughts perfectly.
People abbreviate cause they're probably lazy, to them it makes sense and they don't care/think about if it does to everyone else (which is stupid but ig expected from twitter)
Lol, what lead you to believe tone indicators were invented _for_ austistic people? Austistic or not, it's sometimes difficult to tell sarcasm in just text
I am also autistic, And if we're being real, Every tone indicator except sarcasm makes sentences at least _slightly_ more confusing for me. Truthfully, Considering the fact that _basically_ everywhere I talk supports markup now, I *_infinitely_* prefer using formatting to emphasize tone in things compared to tone indicators which make me stop and think what someone means. I would honestly legitimately rather have a misunderstanding which I have to clear up myself rather than pausing to try and parse what someone means by a tone indicator. And, Like, I _get_ that it helps some autistic and neurotypical people. But it actively makes things harder for me to parse.
"What started as a thing to help with accessibility has become a gatekeeper to communication. Yes, the key to the gate is a Google search away," Well, people say google is your friend all the time because some people don't do any research. So, yeah. Your point makes sense.
I abbreviate for a mix of saving time while on my phone cause I'm a slow typer and conversations pass very quickly sometimes and often feeling like putting too much text into the tone indication makes it *more* ambiguous since you're putting emphasis on the tone and making it clearly intentional which might change the meaning vs a short little addition that just tips the tone scales a little bit (though this might just be my own neurosis) People are always good to just ask if they don't know/remember what something means, too, everybody uses their own variant of the system and we all want to help each other understand one another 👍 it works in spaces I'm in at least, also my condolences to the people calling you ablist I've had a neurotypical go on and on about how I should be using tone indicators more but she's gone now :)
I never want to see another definition of /hj ever again
Ubderstood
i like the html method of indicating sarcasm like its so over the top like that's great anyway do you ever think about who discovered cows milk and decided to drink it is so strange but it definetly gets the point across
Is this why the video showed back up in my feed?
Understandable, have a tunderfal day
@@d-righty because youtube predicted you would engage with it, and you did
Do not use tone indicators, take everything seriously and get into fights with strangers online.
Sigma male grindset
These hands are rated E for Everyone
I zozzled
Why would you want to get into fights with strangers online, especially when you know it's just a misunderstanding? That's really toxic and pointless.
exactly
the sigma grindset
I’ve honestly always interpreted /hj as a shorter way to say “for legal reasons This is a joke”
😂
Unfortunately the police can still arrest you if you say "The last time I tried this my basement had to be expanded just so I could terminate the subject in question /hj" just say "And by the way this is a joke I'm not admitting to locking people in my basement" and just to make it clear I allegedly don't have anyone locked in basement you can't catch me F.B.I!
I've frequently seen it used as a noncommittal way to flirt.
Someone you are legitimately romantically interested saying "ugh, I wish I had a partner" and you replying with "yoo, like, I'm right here tho?? /hj" implies that you would totally date them but there's no actual expectations.
/hj isn't really useful looking at it. jan misali gets his point across in this really well and I actually think I may stop using /hj at all.
My lawyer has advised me I can’t continue this joke
@@BobSmith-tm2kj There's an old joke that goes something like "[addressed to a woman] the Venn diagram of male friends who joke about having sex with you and those who would fuck you at the slightest hint that you're interested is a circle." It's not funny or particularly insightful, but it's relevant to your example.
I swear 80% of the time someone uses half-joking, they're throwing the idea out there to see what other people think and then decide whether they're being serious or not
a form of schrodinger's asshole
think it assurs the people you're talking to that no, Im not some stuck-up with a god complex or whatever, I just think im pretty good at X, to me it implies more that a person think theyre specifically good at X, whilst not being as good at other stuff vaugely related
The Schrödinger’s Douchebag sorta except not necessarily offensive
Ah, Schrödinger's Douchebag, I know them well
I agree with you /hj
>interpreting it as joking is wrong
>interpreting it as serious is wrong
conclusion:
interpreting it is wrong
/hj is the invisibility cloak indicator
can you believe this is the first time I've said out loud in a video that I'm autistic
Same
no, it's in your channel description which is kinda part of the videos
@@1e1001 that is text that is not out loud
@@1e1001 i never read channel descriptions so i had no clue
@@1e1001 what 😭
To me, ‘half joking’ is that awkward thing someone says that everyone is laughing about while giving each other a worried side eye.
Truth
kinda
real!
Does this mean all of my conversations are just us starting at each other worryingly 💀 /hj
This is what I normally use it for 😭
People in the comments are explaining how they use/interpret /hj, when the whole point of the video is that the problem with /hj is that everyone uses it differently and it's hard to tell just from the text how it's currently being used. Like the fact that you have to explain how you, individually, use it, is the whole problem!
We can use them in all sorts of ways, but there aren't multiple definitions.
The first two definitions in the video are misunderstanding the concept. It's not saying anything about literalness. It's saying the statement is a joke, but ironically true.
And the third is a common use for them, not a definition of them.
The sentence means he is making a joke about buying orange juice, but he might still actually go buy some. The example is missing the context of the joke.
@@theneoreformationist tone indicators are meant to explain tone in a concrete way, not make it more difficult to discern; the fact you need "context" is the more reason that it is completely useless, that's what tone IS
@@uraynuke ???
The joke is only confusing because it is missing context. You are only hearing the punchline. That has nothing to do with tone indicators.
@@theneoreformationist If it has nothing to do with the tone indicator as tone doesn't actually convey the neccesary information then what is it even used for here other than wasting space? and hearing just the punchline to a joke you're missing defeats the entire point of a joke
this isn't even communication at this points, it's deliberate miscommunication (and i mean it as someone who DOES get half-jokes)
You aren't understanding what I'm saying at all. The tone indicator is not useless. It is there to communicate that although the statement is a joke, he does actually need orange juice.
The context is NOT required to interpret the meaning of the tone indicator. The context IS required to get the joke. We know exactly what the statement means from the tone indicator, but we don't know why it was said.
The tone indicator is the only part that IS helping us understand the sentence, so it certainly isn't useless.
As an autistic pwrson, this video was very opening to see whay my fellow autists see surrounding tone indicators! I wanted to share my thoughts not as a "youre wrong" situation, but to start discussion!
The way ive always interpreted /hj is the idea of "jk, unless..." which your mentioned on your slides, but not in the manner i think about it
I have it go something like this
"Omg, we should totally go to the mall and spend all of our money this weekend /hj" with the /hj being the indicator that it could be a joke if it wasnt neccesary, or could be serious if you were interested
The tone indicator is redundant in this scenario.
I don’t like tone indicators :/
I *usually* make my voice known through use of punctuation and wording.
Of course, smilys too :)
@@Frappe3621yeah same I never use tone indicators, though I do see the appeal
My problem with /hj is that my brain always interprets it as "handjob" regardless of context.
Thank you haha, I hadn't seen this before and that's all my brain could come up with
Yep. Confused the hell out of me at first
It's Hungry Jacks for me 😅
Hey, at least it's better than being the German abbreviation for the Hitler youth
@@PH0B0PH1L1A Imagine telling this to someone who doesn't know tone indicators lmao
"Wow you are big /pos"
this is why i love the way Tumblr's "(derogatory)" meme became a form of tone indication on there. i've used it everywhere since i found it cause it's just a much better tone indicator system than the / system.
me and my friends use it and "(endearing)" a lot, so very useful
It's also inherently easier to understand since it involves writing out the entire word rather than expecting people already be familiar with the abbreviations.
Better in every single way … clearer AND way funnier AND you aren’t forcing people to remember 10000 million (hyperbole) combos of vague characters… , but in limited character count places /(whatever) tone tags are … okay.
Yes, that's what I've been doing more often! :D
yeah i just go JK JK IM JK afterwards when i say something out of pocked on purpose
In my experience (as an autistic person), "half-joking" just means "I'm serious (but not entirely literal; IE "the sentiment this expresses is genuine") about this, but phrasing it in a way that's usually reserved for jokes because I'm ashamed that I'm serious about this."
Like, someone will say "I'm about to scream... Half joking, of course." and that means "I'm in serious emotional pain right now, and I need to express that, but I don't feel comfortable enough with [whomever this is being said to] to actually talk about it", which... Well, maybe it's just because I'm autistic, but I can't formulate a response to that.
I usually interpret it as basically meaning "There is truth to this, but I'm exaggerating for humor", like "Gonna do all the homework at 11:59 on the due date"
I often read it this way too. Like I feel like the orange juice example could mean "I am going to buy a lot of orange juice. Not quite an absurd amount, but an embarrassingly large amount of orange juice. So I'm framing this as a joke so I feel less embarrassed"
@@vibaj16 but that's...what a joke is inherently?
@@staceyvanderlaan1905 how much is absurd ? and that doesn't make it a half joke. it's still more like/gen or /serious
that's exactly how i use it. very usefull... to me
I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about accessibility feature vs internet slang. People like to say that they're for accessibility, but in my experience they're commonly used as internet slang, and if they're used even a little bit as internet slang then that renders them useless for accessibility.
It's also an allegiance signifier - internet slang already combines the roles of communicating and identifying yourself as in-group, but that effect is compounded when the internet slang has a 'purpose' tied to what your group considers a fundamentally virtuous and exclusive activity. Among some of the circles where tone indicators are common, it is held as a prominent belief that making things accessible is important (true) and that people outside the group never do this/object to doing this (less true). Thus, by using the slang, you show members of your ideological community that you're like them.
The few times I’ve used them is when I’ve rewritten my sentence/statement a few times and can still trick myself into misreading my words in ways I don’t want them to be understood. I think communication in general breaks down over the internet
I want a Death Note episode where we see Kira's thought process as he struggles trying to interpret "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" after L wrote that on his Onlyfans page
this is the best comment on this video. thank you for the laugh. /genuine
what a comment /hj
th-cam.com/video/miv5qaDUF-s/w-d-xo.html
I described using /hj to my partner as, "like throwing a flashbang at the end of my sentence"
god this comment is amazing, you said death note and i knew exactly where this was going.
My issue with tone indicators that even in the best intentions they can sometimes come off as extremely infantalizing. I am an autistic person, one time I posted a piece of art to a discord channel and got multiple replies saying something along the lines of "I love this! /pos" and it made me feel like they thought I was too stupid to be able to parse the phrase "I love this!" as a positive comment.
before watching this video i though /pos was like negative and mean “piece of shit”
...it makes me wonder how badly sarcasm-saturated that person was!
I mean, sure, but you have to concede that there are probably some people who might parse that as sarcasm without the positive tone indicator because of low self-esteem. It's infantalizing because it's meant to be obvious to someone who doesn't get it, and I think getting offended that someone used an unnecessary tone indicator is simply not a reasonable reaction.
@@chrissyleeevans always thought it was " person of shit "
@@impishlyit9780 but usually sarcasm is indicated so that non sarcastic messages don't have to be because they should be much more common.
i am so glad that Absurd Amount Of Orange Juice discourse lives on all these years later
The idea of this discussion being had for many years amuses me as an outsider
As someone outside tumblr, is this another "New Radio Shows?"?
i drink a normal amount of orange juice /ambiguous
An absurd amount of discourse
Wait, @EtchJetty , were YOU the anon?? [0_0]
I've interpreted "half-joking" (tone indicator or otherwise) as meaning "My beliefs/preferences are in this direction, but I am exaggerating the magnitude" so not-literal but sincere. I personally have never heard or seen half-joking (in tone or as an indicator) used to mean "literal but funny".
Exactly yea
/hyp (hyperbole) kinda is that, in a way.
another way that the orange juice example fails to be good lol
So hyperbole?
So in the orange juice example, they are going to buy *some amount* of orange juice, and that saying it is absurd *is the joke itself* ?
I find the tumblr-ish way of putting a tone in parenthesis afterward a much easier way to convey tone. like if I say "Bastard (affectionate)" instead of "Bastard/hj" it makes much more sense that what I'm trying to say is meant to be endearing and not taken seriously, but also partially true. Usually I'd say it to a friend or pet that sometimes gets on my nerves but I love them for that. It's also not perfect but it's how I usually get my point across since I'm very bad at finding the words I actually want to use and instead find an approximation of what is in my head. Autism feels to me like trying to sift boulders through a pasta strainer and if I say my intended meaning or tone it works much better than some vague letters that can't be as specific as I need.
bastard/hj never makes sense,
Because if they want to mean it endearing
People should just be using /j
It's not serious and it's kinda funny, so it's a joke.
@@BramLastname | Bastard /j could be implying that they aren’t really a bastard though. Bastard (affectionate) makes it clear that they are a bastard but that them being a bastard is not necessarily a negative trait but rather a charming one.
@@AnEmptyTunacan Well first of all,
Personally I'd just say "You little Bastard" without any indicator,
Secondly, if I knew someone well enough to call them a bastard affectionately
They'd understand what I meant with /j.
@@BramLastname | Oh, I assumed this also included when people talked about characters and such because the original comment mentioned tumblr-like messages & I see that type of labeling used mostly on posts not directed towards a real person or directed towards a person who is not being directly talked to 😭
If it’s a friend then they probably understand what you mean tho yeah 💀
I never put it together that the “(affectionate)” thing is also a tone indicator, but you’re right, and I very much agree! The flexibility is way better.
I’ve also heard my fellow autistic friends use that format when speaking out loud, because it’s also super helpful for getting across the information that we might not be successfully communicating with our faces/tone/etc. Saying something like “that character is so pathetic, affectionate” is much clearer to me
when I see /hj I literally just tell myself not to think too deep into the meaning of it
As an autistic person I find it easier to just not care too much what people are trying to say
@@MMMaple lol yeah good idea
@@MMMapleThat’s how you should do it. Half the time people don’t actually mean anything behind the things they’re saying anyways
@@ZeroRelevance easier said than done. A lot of ppl are very inclined to know everything and to know what others mean about them. It’s still difficult to not care it’s an active process not something that comes naturally but I agree sometimes it is better not to give it too much thought
Imo it just means to not take it at face value but take it at shoulder value
The way I interpret /hj, and regularly use it, is "I'm exaggerating a little bit for the sake of humor, but for the most part this is how I genuinely feel". It lets me get my point across without having to be so blunt and up-front with my feelings, since I'm usually a bit too open for my comfort.
EDIT: Okay turns out I paused literally 20 seconds before the definitions were explained
But... that's just a hyperbole no? Wouldn't calling it one be much less ambiguous?
hyperbole
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
ngl i just use /hj when i say something super forward and flirty because it works great as a failsafe
@@tatri292 I think hyperbole can be more broad where in this context, hj is a way to communicate passive aggressive feelings. This is how I use hj too and I see it as passive aggressive most often.
@@FeyPax you're commenting on a video talking about how loosely /hj is defined. Suddenly you realize this.
Care for another try?
@@tatri292 The problem is there is a part to interpret literally. The whole thing isn't hyperbole - to use the example, a large amount of orange juice is literally being bought - but the reality is framed with a joke.
I'm 62 and autistic. When I was told that young people interpret a period at the end of a sentence as indicating a terse or dismissive tone, I gave up all hope of attaining fluency in Modern Internetese.
I'm a youngin, so I think I can maybe be of some help. A period at the end of a _solitary sentence_ is seen as intense, but *not* when in a paragraph. I will try to explain why!
(Note: when I say "you", I mean it in the general sense of the word, not you in particular. This isn't a criticism and I don't want it to come across that way)
I find that a lot of my autistic friends view things as much more rigid than they are, so I feel it's appropriate to explain the where and why of this issue. Communication and language - much like everything in life - is fluid and everchanging. For a long time periods as punctuation were used in works where there are long paragraphs and ideas needed to be separated clearly, which the period does an excellent job at. Periods have been a staple of serious literature in academics and storytelling, and they still are today. Because of this, the period has an association with seriousness and formality
Casual conversation is very, very different from formal writing. Formal writing requires rigor and articulateness to convey exactly what is meant, whereas a casual setting requires and inspires comfort and looseness to facilitate people letting their guard down to enjoy their time together (This is also why alcohol is used for socializing, as it forces people to let their guards down). This distinction between formal and casual settings is where the period runs into some communicative trouble
Casual conversation, before the age of the internet, wasn't really had through writing. Even letters weren't truly casual. They took time to write, send, receive, and then reply to, which added a small gravitas to them that simply doesn't exist in a face to face conversation (emails are similar, so I won't include them here). Once texting came into existence, casual conversations were now being held through writing as well as speech. A new form of communication is a huge stimulation for change in how people communicate
With texting now on the scene, the comparatively massive wait time between sending a letter and receiving one back was gone. In a regular conversation, you think a thought and then say that thought. Texting allowed you to do the same thing in a written form: you think a thought, write it, and then send it as an isolated sentence. The isolated sentence I mentioned above!
If you think of another thought after you've already sent one, you can just send another text. These appear as two isolated thoughts in their own bubbles and, unlike with huge formal paragraphs, do not require a period to separate them at all. Most people text each thought as individual messages as opposed to writing a paragraph. Texting, at its core, is a casual communication tool, and so the rules of casual conversation I mentioned above are expected to apply by people using it. Because periods don't need to be used in a single sentence text for their usual purpose, using one is seen as a deliberate enforcement of the formality associated with books and papers
Periods add a finality to the intentions of the message that closes the door to comfortable conversation. Using a period is seen as deliberately indicating that your guard is up, much like a parent using your full name instead of your nickname when you are in trouble. They make people feel like you aren't interested in talking or like you aren't comfortable around them because you are maintaining formality where it shouldn't be
I'm unsure if you noticed, but I deliberately exclude a period from the end of each paragraph. I do this because they serve their purpose of separating sentences within the paragraph and, because the paragraphs are clearly separated already, aren't necessary at the end of one. That is how I text! I personally like to write 2-3 sentences per text message, and so I use the period appropriately while still avoiding the implied formality of the thing. I've never encountered the problem of people feeling like I'm being obtuse or blunt because of this method
I hope this was helpful/informative! Thanks for reading :)
@necroseus This is the best explanation anyone can ask for, I love it!
However, I frequently downgrade my tone by substituting periods for other dividers-when I get long-winded in casual situations, I don't want to be seen as attempting to launch a formal debate with someone, lecturing them, or suddenly pulling them out of the conversation to speak with them harshly or something like that, so I end up spamming line break (excellent too for avoiding multiple notifications/unreads/pings); this escalates to absurdity in situations where I can't use line break such as to avoid flooding, instead using kaomoji and subsequent recapitalization (only in cases which would already have used a punctual tone indicator), using the arguably more formal semicolon, or deciding to memorize the alt code for the En and Em Dash in what is possibly the most counterproductive anti-formal-tone maneuver I could possibly have taken
That paragraph is an exaggerated but plausible message structure for me. Avoiding periods in single-sentence messages has bled over into paragraph-writing for me over time, or so I suspect. While the above is obviously deliberate, I avoid periods subconsciously in what starts as two- or three-sentence train-of-thought messages and then find I must consciously continue finding ways to avoid it when adding more and more sentences. Ironically I think I would probably use more periods if I *did* let my guard down, defaulting to doing exactly as you explained by removing the redundant period where the "Send" button already exists
Thanks so much for so concisely putting it, I've never seen it more well-said! I'm almost certain I'm not the majority, but just wanted to share :3
It's quite obvious to anyone with a brain why a period implies terseness. You shouldn't need it explained.
@@necroseus , it was indeed! The autistic rigidity idea rings true to me. I'm uncomfortable leaving a sentence hanging in ambiguity for the same reason I'm uncomfortable with things like "let's talk next week". I want to be clear that the sentence is done, just like I want to know the day and time for the talk. And both of those desires irritate neurotypical people. Communication is a very interesting puzzle.
@@mrosskne , and it's obvious to me that this was a rude and unhelpful comment, but hey, we all have our blind spots. Thank you, though, for drawing me back to this thread so I could notice the other reply; I must have missed the notification for it.
I've always interpreted "half-joking" as "I'm joking unless you agree with me, in which case I'm being serious."
For me it's like "I mean this but I'm afraid/ashamed of saying it"
For me its “what im saying is actually true, but its mainly a joke since idrc” for example: “why do you have more views than me?! /hj” they do actually have more views, thats not a joke, but the joke part is that im not actually mad, it doesn’t rlly bother me like I made it out to be *as a joke* tho I probably should just use /j
@@xempororhxppyxuse /lh
thats completely wrong.
Half joking is when you say something thats kinda true, at least in your opinion, in a slightly abraisive manner. its more "playful", but still something you believe. In real life this might be when you rip on your friends for something weird they do. Youre saying it in a joking manner, but the fact is that they do that that thing. Thus its a half joke.
If you write hj it means you agree with the statement you said, its just being said in either a harsh or comedic way. I genuinely dont know why yall struggle to understand this.
this^^
As an autistic person I admire your commitment to understanding people... my solution is just accepting I will never fully understand what everyone means
The thing is, that's how it works for non-autistic people too. just to a lesser degree. people are just inherently ambiguous beings - aside from the very most "computer-like" neurodivergent folk, *everyone* operates and communicates with some degree of ambiguity, bias, or predispositions to certain interpretations and etc and they don't even realise it a lot of the time. /hj is ambiguous because "half-joking" is an inherently and *purposefully* ambiguous thing people do. Sometimes it's done as a coping mechanism or mask for your insecurities, sometimes it's used to "probe" your audience and find out how they react to certain kinds of statements, sometimes it's done so you can say something you shouldn't and have plausible deniability, and that last one only works because neurotypical people ALSO aren't sure what it means all the time. It's not a bug, it's a feature. And sometimes it's just straight up misused because people just don't think that deeply about the things they say in general. That orange juice is example shows it being used because yeah, that person was just using words thoughtlessly and wrong - i'm neurotypical and I have NO IDEA what the hell they meant in that paragraph.
I see lots of neurodivergent people who come at this whole problem of understanding social cues and the like as if everyone is, underneath the ambiguous speech patterns and social pleasantries/formalities/etc, a person with clear ideas and intent that is communicating those thoughts as they want them to be perceived. But this is simply not the case.
Same I also have ASD and i believe assuming ambiguity gives ppl benefit of the doubt & cut thru (pre)tension
@kanyetheofficial those absolutely dont ruin the joke, they let you know that it is a joke when it might otherwise seem serious due to the lack of social cues over written text. If /j ruins the joke, then using a joking tone when saying a joke in person would also ruin the joke.
Sarcasm is absolutely *not* supposed to be funny when you're not sure it's sarcasm (unless you're using it as an insult i suppose), that just makes you unsure what a person means. That's why in speech we make sarcasm obvious with tone and inflection. Exclamation marks are not obvious signs of sarcasm either, they're signs of... exclamation. They *can* suggest sarcasm or facetiousness but that depends *highly* on context and subjective perspective. And if i see someone else genuinely suggesting vomiting random emojis onto a post as an indicator of sarcasm im going to have an aneurism
Also edit but i just realised you also suggested caps lock as an indicator of sarcasm or joke and i think that might have just been so absurd my brain just blocked it out for my sanity's sake at first. Because nothing says "sarcasm" than the written shorthand for loudness, anger, or authority. Obviously. Those are the things that i associate with sarcasm for sure..
@@marcog.verbruggen674 I completely forgot to reply when you replied ages ago, but I really appreciate the thought out response and it is kinda comforting to know that at least my communication issues at least can effect everyone too, I've always assumed people without this disorder had a much easier time understanding and communicating
as an autistic person, one of my favorite things to say when i don’t understand is i’ll, out loud say, “i’m gonna pretend i understand.” it’s silly and goofy to most people, and lets them know effectively that i don’t get it, and won’t be spending too much energy on getting it. pretty sweet if you ask me.
I never knew how entertaining it would be to watch someone algorithmically dissect the meaning of a joke
Type 5 Paradox did me in
Half-joke, no?
He's half joking guys
holy crap 1k likes on a comment?!?!?!??! second time in my life lesgooo 😎
This must be what Spanish speakers refer to as "era de chill" (it was of chill).
I am genuinely so proud of myself that by the time I made it to the end of the video, you have sepperately invented the exact same method that I use instead of using tone indicators
I just type things in perenthesies loL (like this) (I know that wasn't an indication of tone I just wanted to do it)
I only really use /j, and even then only when I say something and then realize it can be interpreted as mean so I have to quickly save myself by clarifying loL
By far my favorite use of tone indication is the (affectionate)/(derogatory) distinction, because in addition to disambiguating words and phrases that could be compliments or insults depending on the intent and context, e,g, "this is the most autistic video essay on the internet (affectionate)," it can also be used for humorous effect to imply that the speaker has some strong opinion about things that you wouldn't normally expect someone to have strong opinions about, e.g. "I am putting on shoes (derogatory)," or to reverse the meaning of a word or phrase that normally has a fairly unambiguous meaning, e.g. "Guel Jeturk is such a useless fucking bastard (affectionate)," which I also think is a very funny thing to do.
I like this because it feels like a Wikipedia article and i think it'd be really funny to have an article like "CM Punk(derogatory)"
100%. i have a note on someone i talk to regularly online that's just "duck lover (derogatory)" bc he spams duck emoji and its such a helpful distinction lol
Hellsite (affectionate) and Hellsite (derogatory)
only problem is that this adds an extra layer of complexity that would be very bad for clarity, not that its not funny tho
I absolutely love the bracketed full word tone indicators they are my beloved (affectionate)
They allow remixing language for poetic oxymorons in ways that without them, _even spoken language_ wouldn't be clear about. They extend potential use cases of nouns and adjectives, and even if you're using them with matching words like I did, the extra emphasis helps sell the degree to which your opinion on something is strong. They're a really funky tool that allows doing even more with language in a way that the standardized tone indicators can't do because of having to be standardized. If I say /srs, all it does is convey that I am serious. But if I start using (adored), (appreciated), (lovestruck), it conveys both the seriousness _and_ the intensity of the sentiment!
I have only seen /hj used in flirting, where they are being serious about an offer to date someone or saying something risky, but are using /hj to offer the person they're flirting with an out, essentially "I'm being serious, but if you don't feel the same way, you're welcome to interpret this as a joke"
jk jk unless 🥺
as an aro/ace person (that also doesn't socialize much) this baffles me, like why would you need to give them an out? isn't that the point of flirting, to politely and non-directly ask if someone is interested in you? or are you saying that /hj can literally mean "i am flirting, are you interested?"?
that’s the worst actually, because how am i supposed to know they’re serious. what if i’m interested but it turns out the romantic part was what they were joking about? what if i don’t know that the part that is serious is that they’re flirting and i miss the subtext completely (。。)
@@bluecheetah001 quite frankly a lot of people flirt without the intention of it meaning youre "interested" in moving things further. And giving someone an "out" can be just as simple as leaving the conversation open without pushing them in a direction directly. It can give them space.
That's the third meaning
I went from "He's severely overthinking this" to "No, he's right" in ten minutes, great stuff
I crossed that threshold at 6 minutes. I'm not even on the spectrum and I don't get why "half-joking" is a thing. It to me sounds like a shield for when someone wants to say something seriously, but is afraid of being judged for it, so they smokescreen it as a joke to get around it.
Honestly, "severely overthinking" is the baseline for many autistics. We have to constantly be on watch for obscure rules that most people don't even think about... and then we stumble upon issues within in the rules that essentially nobody's thought about. (It's for this reason I detest most forms. The questions are worded terribly and if there's limited options it's even worse. I keep wishing I could be let loose on them to improve them.)
@@willofthewinds3222 That's basically it. Half-joking is a way to express your ideas while keeping the option of hiding behind humor open. It's used when you're wary of the sort of reaction you'll get. It's effectiveness wildly varies, as sometimes you'll get the complete opposite of the desired result.
@@Ricardoromero4444 What is sounds like to me is cowardice. If you mean it as a joke, then clarify that its a joke. If you are being serious, then mean it. /serious
even if he was overthinking thats what a lot of neurodivergent/autistic people just do naturally including myself so lol
i am an autistic person who is not confused by the /hj tone indicator or the concept of half joking. i struggle quite a bit with sarcasm and some jokes but half joking is one of those things i get. AND YET
i have watched this video four times and i am still baffled by the “absurd amount of orange juice” example. it may be the most confusing /hj use case ive ever seen
edit- like jan misali i also do not want to hear the theories of what this /hj use case could mean. i promise, ive already thought of it, and the ambiguity of a million different potential meanings is why this use case is a confusing and worst possible example
I am ND, but luckily I usually have a pretty easy time figuring out what people mean. Sometimes I'm wrong, but usually not _that_ wrong.
When the orange juice example was first stated, I thought I understood what it was saying. Then the thought process was explained and I was like "okay yeah I guess this isn't quite clear". And then I tried thinking about how I'd explain it and then realised I ACTUALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT AT ALL. This sentence has transcended reason and is now so wild to me. I have so many questions for that anonymous person.
For when there is a mildly amusing amount of orange juice
@@tikatooI love the turn of phrase "transcended reason".. No clue why, I just find it really funny for some reason.
I think they're just buying slightly more than a reasonable amount of orange juice, and the "/hj" is unnecessary embellishment. Based on the phrase "I literally am half joking," I suspect the asker isn't putting that much thought into their words, b/c, like, wtf does that even mean lmao, which I think makes it most reasonable to assume the "/hj" is thoughtlessly superfluous. Regardless, that ask is ironically a really good illustration of Misali's point lol
this oj example is just stupid, don't let it bother you
as an autistic person, /hj has never been a problem for me personally, because I've always interpreted it as "kind of" or exaggeration for comedic effect, and I've almost always been able to tell the two apart with ease. Surely there's a better way of making that apparent (like, literally saying "kind of") but it works for me and my friends. I think there might be a tone indicator for exaggerating..? I honestly should start using that. edit: apparently there is and it's /hyp for hyperbole. I didn't even know of the word "hyperbole" prior to this so it makes sense I wasn't aware of that one (english is not my first language.)
in my case as an autistic person me and my friends seemingly use it as a way to express asking for consent or opinion on something. atleast thats how i interpret it. example “im gonna send this embarrassing photo to my friend /hj” meaning they want to but only if you are ok with it. if you arent then they can say it was a joke anyways
i usually use /lh (light hearted) for exagérations (serious intent, joking interpretation), but i don’t know if this has the same issue as /hj ?
the fun thing is hyperbole is a specific type of exageration but not every type of exageration is hyperbole. The only consistent information gained is that it shouldn't be taken literally imho. So even "I am going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice" with /hyp or /exa I don't know if the person is going to buy a normal amount of orange juice or none whatsoever. Maybe it was hyperbole for how thirsty they are, sometimes context helps but not always. People have different feelings associated with each of those indicators but they still aren't universal experiences.
This is exactly how I interpreted it. "I'm going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice. h/j" just means that their gonna buy like 2 things of orange juice and are joking. It's really not that difficult to understand, I'm sorry. I'm autistic too and it's very clear that they're simply not buying an ABSURD amount, just a bit more than normal and are joking about it.
I’m also autistic, but half joking sounds super sarcastic to me and sort of rude, that or it feels like I’m being condescended, then again all tone indicators make me feel condescended personally /hj is just the one that frustrates me the most
The way I interpret the "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" sentence is that the person is literally going to buy an irregular amount of orange juice (2-3 gallons or something similar) but since they think that the mental imagery of buying an absurd amount of orange juice is funny they expand the amount of orange juice they say they are going to buy in a hyperbolic sense (an absurd amount, which would be like 10-20 gallons)
Agreed, as someone who doesn't use a whole lot of tone indicators and doesn't see them used, that's(assuming I knew /hj meant / half joking) how I'd take it.
I love when ppl use /hj this way cuz it makes it so much funnier
I guess it can sort of decrease the severity of a statement while still maintaining its truth.
Yeah pretty much how i view it
The way I interpreted it was "I'm going to buy orange juice, but the joke is what if i bought 100 bottles of it" since peoples definition of /hj and definition of "absurd amount" are different as abstract concepts, it makes it difficult
As an autist, I’ve always thought of half joke as “This sentence is an exaggeration of the truth for comedic effect”
also autist here and, yeah same
ya until i saw that this would be burried under 12k comments i was gonna post that i'm pretty sure it's just hyperbole.
Yeah that's how I see it as well. Even the example of "I'm going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice" falls under that
They probably are going to buy orange juice, but the joke is that the amount is exaggerated
I understand it as they mean the statement completely sincerely but want to leave a way to back out of it. I wonder if anyone in this comment section isn't on the autistic spectrum (I'm in it too).
but then doesnt /j just work?
i definitely agree. tone indicators are really confusing, because i dont know every single one of them, i have to look up “what is /pos” or “what is /nf” etc. but that also makes me think “why not just type out the full words” like /pos = /positive and /nf = /no pressure and literally its not that hard to type out one or two words, you dont have to shorten it! my goodness…
I remember being in a discord server once where using tone indicators was a rule. As an autistic person Ive never had more confusing and ambiguous social interactions anywhere than that server
a rule? did you have to use an indicator in every message..?
Wow that's ridiculous and totally not unhelpful at all
as an autistic person that it literally the stupidest idea i have ever heard of... making rules about the way you have to communicate will always make sincere communication harder because it's being influenced by this weird outside element that says "NO YOU GOTTA SAY IT DIS WAY >:( "
Do you have any examples? Just curious, sounds like there could be some funny stuff there
@@stephendonovan9084 just imagine, "iM GOING TO FUCKING KILL YOU /srs /th /gtfo"
I use /hj regularly when joking about plans with someone. I usually use it as “this is a joke, but I wouldn’t be against it if you’re down.” Like “you should just ditch school and come over to my house /hj”
This one makes the most sense to me, I think. It's a way of allowing something to be a joke but also allowing someone to take it seriously without that pushback of "hey now, I was just joking, I honestly didn't mean it."
Like, "I've got fifteen boxes of Girl Scout cookies, go ahead and take them all before I eat them! /j" would indicate that no, you are not allowed to confiscate all my Girl Scout cookies, regardless of my stated diet plans. I said it *purely* to be funny and I still want these cookies (and might be joking about how many boxes I bought, too). And you have to figure out a socially acceptable amount of cookies to request/take.
But the /hj version would indicate that hey, if you feel up to stealing all my Girl Scout cookies, I honestly wouldn't be mad about it, and I leave the results in your hands as to how much you feel up to taking. I think?
...but yes, human communication is ambiguous enough without adding deliberately ambiguous stuff, isn't it? I mean, even if someone phrased a thing this way, I think I'd still be worried that I'd be overstepping bounds to "take it at face value" as it were. Augh.
YEAH YEAH YEAH that’s exactly how I use it and how I’ve most often seen it used or how I’ve interpreted it !!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's how I use it too!! I usually use it when I say a really absurd opinion about something like "lemons taste way better when you eat the peel too" and things that will *sound* like a joke but are actually something I do
I feel like, “haha jk… unless” conveys this idea so much more succinctly and also opens up the conversation to see what people think of the idea.
Side note, “you should ditch and come to my house /HJ”, would be the funniest thing to misinterpret
Yes, Schrödinger's joke is my primary use case for /hj as well.
the barely restrained rage in the orange juice segment is a prime example of the quality content that keeps me coming back /serious
I had to keep checking my settings to make sure I hadn't accidentally set the playback speed to 2x
/hj
Ben shapiro vibes
@@bahlalthewatcher4790 I did put it on 2x and they sounded like a chipmunk
as a neurotypical I've always hated /hj because 90% of the time I see it used it's to be passive aggressive or rude without consequences, like you can just be negative but "I'm also joking!!"
i like how tumblr has started using things like (affectionate) and (derogatory) even if its used sarcastically sometimes, at least you dont have to learn a bunch of abbreviations for it
and sometimes they're actually funny
I much prefer those things over tone indicators
Yes I'm not a tumblr user but I enjoy the use of [JOKE]. I feel like it adds to the funny
@@PH0B0PH1L1A in my defense my brain categorizes things that happened within the last few years as "recent". deltarune came out recently. so did undertale. so did owl house what do you mean its getting cancelled didn't that just come out Recently? also ive been on tumblr since 2015ish so if its post-superwholock era for me its recent in my brain. apologies
Your fat (affectionate)
I'm autistic and tone indicator's annoy me a lot of the time, I know some people who use it after every sentence and use it in places where the tone is extremely obvious and make me use it in those situations and it makes me feel like a child
ah yes the kindergarten teacher tone of voice
Yup, it's an accessibility tool being used in an ableist way there
tone indicators are helpful sometimes but when they use it on a sentence where the tone is obvious it just seems infantilizing
As an autistic person aswell, i love using them as jokes.
@@damienwit thats very true /sers
The meaning of a half-joke kept feeling intuitive to me, but every time you dove into explaining what it actually implies my vision started swimming and my brain started questioning everything I ever knew.
What infuriated me most is that none of his "interpretations" of the orange juice example is the correct one. The correct one is that the speaker is doing comedy by exaggeration.
1) He is going to buy orange juice (true)
2) He is going to buy a lot (true)
3) The amount is *large* (say, two gallons) but not actually *absurd* (twelve tanker trucks full?) so exaggerating the amount is the joking part.
So the sentence is "true", just not "literally true". I.e., half joking.
Or, as become the norm these days, to mark the non-literal part with "literally" to indicate the joke. :P
@@ZapAndersson this is the best explanation i've seen so far!
@@ZapAnderssonHow do you know that that is the correct one?
@@justanscvit just makes sense
@@nourriadh6976 Wow, why didn’t I think of that? Maybe he’s just right! What a great defense! /s
I watched this video months ago, and it actually made me lose trust in my own intuitive understanding of /hj. I stopped using it at all and began overthinking it.
I think /hj ends up being like very person-based, like sarcasm. Just identifying when something isn’t being entirely serious (even if there are many different ways it can be unserious) and fitting this against the class of unserious ness that the person using it tends to is helpful to me.
Even though I suppose we have pretty different feelings on this, I love this video! It’s extremely well written, and unpacks it in a very helpful way.
"communication generally involves more than one person" - Jan Misali 2023
he aknowledges 😻😻😻
That statement is, itself, half-joking. In many ways.
@@jonathanccast i guess so, but there should really be a tone tag like "[citation needed]" in randall monroe's book "what if?", meaning "you should take the meaning seriously but the intent is that it's pointless to mention it because it's obvious and that's funny because it's not something you would expect someone to require to mention"
You can communicate with your future self by writing something for you to read later! Like a journal, or notes that you should review.
But whether your present self and future self are different people and therefore "more than one person" is a philosophical question I'm not prepared to defend right now--
@@notwithouttext but deadpan delivery is already the default interpretation for sentences like that anyway
In my experience you can usually interpret "half joking" as saying "Please interpret this as genuine in any respect that makes me look good and ignore it in any respect that makes me look bad."
By way of example, the /hj on "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice" means "I really like orange juice and am going to buy a humorously large amount of it, but don't take me as some freak that has a refrigerator full of orange juice". "well I am usually right /hj" means "I'm acting full of myself in a funny way but actually I do think I'm usually right but don't take that as meaning I'm full of myself or something". I can't imagine anyone putting a /hj on "This cat video is the best cinematic work in the past century", because saying that doesn't really confer positive or negative connotations on the writer, so there's no need for it. For NTs, selecting words for communication is not just about conveying an idea to someone, it's also about managing your reputation and casting yourself in a good light, and saying you're half joking is a hacky way to absolve yourself of having to work on the latter.
ok
This is exactly how I've used it... I feel called out
this is how it's used
@@qufanat Idk, imo it’s usually about hyperbole and not about attempting to look better. If someone says „going to buy absurd amount of orange juice /hj“ it’s about buying a lot of it but also not the actual absurd amount. Yk… hyperbole. I could say „I ate so much I will die /hj” and hj is not about reputation but the fact that I hyperbolized the effect of me overeating. I am not actually in danger but also it does hurt and it is unhealthy. I never seen /hj used as a way of showing yourself in a better light, but tbh I rarely use tone tags and mostly see them on TikTok or smth so idk lol
After much deliberation I have decided that "I'm gonna buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" means "I really want to buy an absurd amount of orange juice, but I probably won't" with about 80% confidence.
Idk, I like the interpretation of “I’m gonna buy a somewhat large but not entirely unreasonable amount of orange juice.”
See, I was thinking they were gonna buy the orange juice, but it wasn't going to be an absurd amount.
+
Yeah. That they really are going to buy some orange juice, and they want to buy a huge amount, but will probably just buy somewhat a lot.
yeah i think its they are only going to buy some orange juice
I'm 30 and autistic. I've been using "/s" for the past 20 years. I don't believe I've ever used another tone indicator. "/s" is just classic internet slang and I won't stop using that one, just like I'm not gonna stop using stuff like "brb" or shortening "you" to "u". I never really thought of "/s" as a tone indicator though. It just feels the same as any other slang that might have specific punctuation involved. Anyway I have no intention of ever using other tone indicators, I find them clunky and confusing.
yeah, /s has existed long before the rest, all the others are just bloat and not necessary
/s has a point, it can cause issues if sarcasm is unclear. All the others are pretty much useless. /srs is maybe useful, but it's generally nicer to just put "seriously," or something like that within the sentence. Sarcasm is special because spelling it out kills the sarcasm. Anything other than /srs is people just being unclear when they don't need to be.
Sarcasm is communicated by word choice and context.
As a neurotypical person, (I think) I always use “half-joking” to mean your first definition. I use the phrase to more or less indicate hyperbole when it might not be obvious.
I.e. as a choir director, I sometimes tells my choristers things like, “if you don’t practice, it’s going to be a complete disaster at the concert. I’m half-joking, but please practice”
not practicing leading to a disastrous concert is the truth tho
Ah in this example I thought it means like "it's not going to be a send in FEMA disaster but but it might still feel pretty disastrous in the context of a concert"
@@block_head_steve240 But your intent is not to guilt trip people into practicing to avoid an embarrassing disaster, that's why you're half-joking. You don't actually believe people will put off practicing to the point it becomes a complete disaster.
@@ric6611 why would you not guilt trip them into practicing if it avoids a disaster? Isn't that normal?
@@block_head_steve240 guilt tripping is mean.
in my opinion, it feels like /hj is just used when someone has an opinion but they're scared to fully commit with it so they hide behind it being "partly serious"
here's the math:
"i really liked this video" + "i feel like the people I'm talking to won't, but if they do that would be awesome" = "this is the best cat video of all time /hj"
fr that was my interpretation lol
that is also my interpretation
This is also my interpretation!!!
Yeah I agree, from my perspective as a neurotypical person half joking is when you say something serious in a joking way.
So I could say "of course, I'm always right /hj" which is said like a joke but I actually kind of believe the underlying sentiment.
That's almost like it's EXACTLY what it's for
I love the Hand Job tone indicator. It clarifies whether what you're saying is an invitation for a hand job
real
when I first saw /hj I thought "hand job", which makes more sense than "half-joking". I think half-joking is a nonsense concept. Either I'm joking or I'm not.
This made me feel a huge well of empathy for those with autism. This seems like so many hoops to jump through just to understand what someone is tweeting about. Listening to him describe in detail why /hj is annoying (I'd never really given it much thought, I just understand what it means intuitively) gives me immense second hand frustration. Why indicate the tone if the person who needs it most gets confused and has to go on a wild goose chase (possibly never-ending) just to understand what you mean?!
It feels like the tip of the iceberg. I wish I could donate some of my social intelligence to you ASD folks... /gen
People make a huge deal about how tone indicators that make jokes unfunny help autistic people, yet still insist on using an absurd number of abbreviations and acronyms that help nobody.
if you want to help us autists, stop using indicators and write with clarity instead. also remind people when getting into misunderstanding-based arguments to simply ask for clarification. that's all it takes to solve the same issues that tone indicators badly try to solve. encourage better communication.
autistic people can learn to read tone too, but this becomes harder when there's less good examples to learn from and tone indicators are constantly offered as crutches instead. they're good short-term, sure, but long-term it just makes everyone have to go along with it instead of encouraging people to improve themselves
As an autistic guy, I have attempted to use tone indicators and have found that it’s much easier to just clarify later if it becomes an issue. For example (albeit a heavily exaggerated one), saying “I’m gonna go throw pool noodles into your room at 3 am” is much funnier without a /j at the end. At least personally, I start focusing on the tone indicator instead of the joke. Also, my opinion on /hj is, I’ve seen it once and immediately went “wait, what? Like, how? What’s that supposed to mean?” And then 10 minutes later I was recommended this video.
Agreed, not autistic( I don’t think at least) but time indicators ruin the mood for me tbh. I have a hard time understanding tone sometimes but I would just be like “ wait are you joking or?” Or “ do you mean that genuinely?” Like idk it’s just weird to me if someone were to be like “ omg I’m so sorry your grandma died /gen” like yeah I fucking hope it’s genuine
Yes, I think it might be more funny because imagining someone ACTUALLY doing that is hilariously random and somewhat cursed. Also, same. I saw /hj and didn’t know what the person was saying, then saw this video lol
@@Nic0Dr4ws i love ur pfp
yeah I'm autistic too and if I really care about the tone of a message, I'll just ask. I find it easier
@@mouthwaterin ty
this is literally the first time i'm seeing /hj ever. TIL. as a linguist I feel like ambiguity is so inextricable from language that anything used often enough to become colloquial, despite being made with intentions otherwise, will inevitably become as muddled and multi-faceted in meaning as the rest of language. striving for complete clarity and lack of ambiguity is an entirely different mode in english, and not one people are quick to use on the internet- especially when often I feel it can draw mockery or other negativity (because it' can be othering compared to people more 'fluent' in really jargony internet lingo)
Yep. A big part of slang is intentionally (or subconsciously) excluding those who aren't in on it. People used "bad" to mean "good" while fully knowing what "bad" was meant to mean. Given enough time, everything becomes a shibboleth.
I also like that slang lets you be MORE specific as well depending on context. It's certainly more confusing for people who aren't in the know but if you say someone's "tilted" for example there's a certain amount of nuance to the specific mental state of the person involved (angry/annoyed to the point where it's going to affect their behavior/performance.) vs just saying "upset" or "angry".
The use of synonyms of "literally" to mean the opposite was specifically mentioned in the video.
People fighting this natural evolution of language is a massive pet peeve of mine. You can't stop it people, this is how communication has always worked.
People get mad about "literally" but miss words like ultimate, terrific, fabulous, fantastic, fatal, awesome, terrible and awful, all of which have had their meanings change somewhat drastically.
Actually I literally get angry whenever an advertisement describes their product as the "ultimate" anything.
This video is...... _insanely_ correct, actually. It really sucks how the literal purpose of tone indicators has been completely lost on people. It's for people to understand you, and because it's become so mainstream and memey, there are now too many tone indicators for anyone to keep track of, and some _aren't even tones._ I don't need tone indicators, but a lot of people I know do, and I just..... talk literally with those people. _Because they don't trust tone indicators anymore._ It sucks. I'm glad someone kinda big is talking about it, hopefully it starts at least a conversation, and NOT a fight.
Agreed. Personally I dislike most tone indicators (with exceptions like /s and /j) as they’re just way too complicated for me to understand what most of them mean, even if I know the literal definition of the indicator as is the case with /hj and other more recent ones. That said, I’m also coming from the standpoint of someone who reads and writes a *lot* and as such I’m used to more conventional sentences in general, meaning things like tone indicators and letter censorship (like th*s or especially th.s - seems like trigger-blocking programs would be so much more practical for everyone) make sentences hard for me to parse properly. I always find them to be clunky and they impede communication more than they facilitate it, and the natural shift in the meaning and use of the tone tags only makes it that much harder to figure out.
There's been so many times where I've had to look up an indicator i don't recognize, and google doesn't help at ALL.
tone indicators are not suited for the ethos of the internet. a jokey, memey collection of people with often purposely ambiguous and carefree ways of communicating. they have their place, but you can’t blame the internet for seeing that these people are trying to use something static and congruent and so they go and flip it on it’s head. sarcasm was the act of flipping straight foward sincere language on it’s head as a way of being humorous, you can’t blame people for seeing sincere indicators and flipping them on their head.
Tone indicators were never about accessibility. Their origin is closer to in-group slang (, [/s] or being used between people who knew how to code for their webpages). Personally this is the first time I've heard of them being used for inclusivity. While I know the basic ones are useful, it's very obvious that most of them weren't invented with that purpose, and the people pushing that narrative always seem like they are doing some OG virtue signalling (not the conservative buzzword but the original definition where people signal at a token act to gain praise without caring for the problem).
@@sockjim9016 I'm terrible at understanding tone both IRL and on the internet, so I use tone indicators in case someone else is every day just as confused by everyone as I am. Wouldn't using the actual words be better than just /s and /j? For example, if I write a sarcastic comment about a green thing, I do so with: That's so red! (sarcasm).
14:07 it's not
the amount of juice they're buying is ordinary, and thus unfunny
but despite saying that they're buying an absurd amount of juice, they're buying a normal amount of it (as indicated by /hj). this makes the amount of juice they're buying funny, since it's the opposite of what they said they're gonna be doing
at least that's what i think
This feels like the tone indicator version of the phrase "there's a grain of truth behind every joke".
"and in this particular instance, the grain is more like a big clump"
@@holdingpattern245 *They're just racist
I'm going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj means that they are going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice, but they think it's funny that they are going to do that. It's a form of modern meta-irony boiled down to its purest form. It's intentionally ambigious as you arn't sure how much of their orange-juice buying is ironic, and how much is sincere. It's ironic and sincere at the same time. Which is why meta-irony is so hard to get for neurodivergent people, it's an illogical vibe, that's the point.
In this case I think said grain is Rice, Although oftentimes it's Maize.
@@thegrandnil764 I as a neurotypical person have very strong opinions on meta-irony humor. The logical extreme (and this does happen) is that, when no one can tell who's serious or joking, and on what level of irony they're on if it is a joke, there is no difference between serious or joking - they're the same thing. I *hate* it, and I *hate* it when people use it.
as a neurotypical person i interpret "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" as them saying they're gonna buy a lot of orange juice but not enough to actually be absurd but that's where the joke part comes from where they say that it is absurd
As a neurodivergent person that was also my takeaway
That joke would at best get a slightly harsh nose exhale
As an autistic person, I thought so too. But I don't understand how that would ever be funny, so why not just say that you're going to buy a normal amount of orange juice? I just don't understand that sentence anymore once /hj is attached to it.
@@29..47maybe it’s like some sort of in-between for a “normal amount” vs “absurd?” Like 20 gallons is a bit absurd, but 5 isn’t really a “normal” amount?
@@29..47 maybe we can get another example. lets say there's a video of someone saying something absurd, and someone responds with "i'm gonna scream /hj". its in the sense of "im not gonna scream out loud, but now i really want to" maybe? i saw this example in some other comment, maybe it'll help
@@sketchstudios345 I think that I get what it means, but I still don't understand the point of it. I don't understand why someone complicate what they mean instead of just saying that they want to scream. It seems like someone wants to say "I want to scream", but they are changing it to "I'm going to scream" just so that they can add /hj to it.
The fact that every comment trying to define "half-joking" is defining it slightly differently from the last only makes me more confident that it doesn't actually mean anything.
but "half-joking" is a thing! It's when you're saying something humorously, but it's also not far from the truth.
The non-committal definition is probably the best definition of “half-joking”. The way I understand how “half-joking” works is “to make a suggestion/statement non-committally, believing that it won’t be taken seriously despite it being an honest suggestion/statement”
Cause a half joke is an absurd statement, it's subjective by nature and depends how you use it.
It really doesn’t, I don’t think I ever really use it outside of my friend groups where we all kinda have an unspoken definition for it becahde we’re all overthinking idiots who can’t form a cohesive thought lol
But before people even used it as a tone indicator in textnit was a phrase used in vocal conversations. You'd say something like "im gonna lose my mind with all of this paperwork! Im only half-joking." Which would imply that you don't intend to lose your mind but you see it as a real possibility.
I’m glad that I have very consistent interactions with only so many people on the internet, because it’s much easier to grasp what they’re implying with their typing, and hopefully vice-versa. Usually what I mean is very straight-forward, it’s exactly what I’m saying, but being able to not do that with some people is really nice.
okay but i absolutely love overthinking stuff like this, it makes me so happy im not the only one who does this. But everytime i try to vocalize these overwhelming urges about certain topics i just get "dude its just ___, calm down" but like... I am calm, im just thinking in depth about something that interests me a bit
I find myself going into those long rants of talking about something I like as well! I think its an overall positive though, it gives me something to keep my brain busy and happy, I think it really gives a person the drive to do the best they can at a thing!
That! 🤙The "I am calm" part especially omg. Like. People often interpret that I'm genuinely freaking out about stuff in a bad way, but it's like no I'm just...excited? 😂 I like to make things more interesting for myself so I overthink and exaggerate the urgency of things a lot I guess.
~:~
I hate how over-enthusiasm can boomerang into looking like over-aggression or looking very discontented :/
Ikr it's so annoying when you try to ask a question then people think your panicking or your angry
Calm down doesn’t imply you are angry or aggressive. If you are being overly excited and someone says “calm down” they are using that right because being overly excited is the opposite of calm
Genuinely only now learning that /hj does not stand for hand job
God now im gonna read it as
"im going to leave for your house immediately. *Starts giving you a handjob*"
it does. but political correctness is trying to change that 🤣
Well, we should change that
omg hi RJPalmer
The woke mob is taking away the true meaning of hj smhsmh
my (not autistic) sibling sent me a chart of what had to be at least a hundred tone indicators, some of which used the same EXACT letter, and others meaning the same exact thing.
tone indicators as accessibility tools become useless when they get that complex, because if a person has to take extensive time to understand or memorize what people are saying, that means things are LESS accessible. using the iconic tumblr adjective in parentheses is more successful because that's something that is always clear and anyone can comprehend.
Like (derogatory)? Lmao I just find those hilarious for no good reason, I think there's certain useful ones like: /gen, /srs, /hj (though I haven't watched the video yet so I'll see if my mind), /j, /s, /neg, /pos and beyond that they probably get redundant or unhelpful
anything done on the internet will eventually get redundant and overly complex, what bothers me the most is when people use /srs on sentences that have literally NO ambiguity. Sentences that in no context could literally ever mean anything else.
Just say "lol" to make things less serious. It's all that's needed lmao
Y'know, the :-) emoticon was first invented basically as a tone indicator for when someone was joking. It's a very funny story of miscommunication, you should look it up! But it shows that this problem has been around since the dawn of the internet (and even before). I feel like emojis can still kinda be used as tone indicators in this way, but :) can mean so many things that it's not as clear as /j or something.
Yeah, and it expands on just how many ways you can adorn your sentence (positive)! Pretty much any adjective! And you don't even need to create an entire code for the meaning to be understood
This is why i prefer the tumblr trend of saying things like: "stupid show (affectionate)" which is them saying that they hate the show, but sarcastically. They actually love the show. Vs. "stupid show (derogatory)" which means they REALLY dislike the show. It lends itself to sarcasm and hyperbole really well, and is already a form of internet slang in itself. And people generally elaborate on what they say further. But yes. /hj is confusing bc of its ambiguity in the first place. Like maybe if you're going to use the tone indicator format and want to be purposefully ambiguous, maybe /amb?? Or /abg??? But half-joking meaning two contradictory things?? USE OTHER FORMS OF INTERNET SLANG.
Like. If i was going to actually buy an absurd amount of orange juice and i was poking fun of myself I'd say "I'm going to buy an ABSURD amount of orange juice lol". But if i meant to say it genuinely id say "Im gonna buy an absurd amount of orange juice. not kidding." And if i was expressing the opposite, that i wasnt going to buy a large amount, but i was kidding, id say "brb, gonna buy an absurd amount of OJ" followed immediately afterwards by an edited meme of the dril help me budget tweet with my OJ expenses as like $70,000. Or if i WASNT going to buy any, and I wanted to show sincerity in that i wouldn't buy anything, id say "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice (lie)"
THERE'S JUST BETTER WAYS TO DO THIS THAT ARENT CONFUSING
“That’s what words are for”
What a powerful point made so succinctly
woag hey buddy what's up i know you. lol.
@@opnuul it the op!
I learned a new word today 🤠
I think i've seen you before lol
@@kingpminch not impossible, I am a multifaceted individual
You've really wrapped up all of my opinions on tone indicators in one 18 minute video, in the conclusion especially. As an autistic person it's really frustrating to see people get mad at me for not using or understanding these things (because I'm pretty confident in my online communication skills) while in the same breath claiming that this is supposedly to help the autistic community.
Yet another "neurotypicals making up well intentioned but useless systems for NDs" moment, add it to the list
@@Imperial_Squid I do think it was an autistic person but it totally doesn't work in its current form.
As someone who's noticed how much more this contributed to entitlement to being catered to as well as even MORE lack of proper communication due to people purposefully misusing these tags to lie through their teeth, as well as being someone who values straightforwardness due to my autism, this is exactly how I feel about tone indicators.
@@sekiezkogg people saying this is for accessibility then using them incorrectly irritates me so much, like saying "people who drink milk should die /g" under the good faith interpretation sounds insane, but if you take it non literally, they're being sarcastic and the "/g" is them _sarcastucally_ reinforcing belief, which would be fine, except that it's designed to always be taken in good faith, if you can only _sometimes_ trust the face value meaning, it's not an accessibility feature any more, it's no better than just regular text...
Interestingly enough telling disabled people that something is helpful to them does not in fact make it work any better than it does. /half-joking in the sense that the sentiment is true and the humor lies in the absurdity that someone would believe otherwise.
wow, just /hj really is quite useless, I needed an essay for that.
I'm not autistic and I don't often come across tone indicators, but I'm really connecting to this problem. The same thing happens to me when I see someone wink. It causes me to invent one interpretation after another, with too little information to raise one interpretation up or rule another out. I end up paralyzed in this big knot of indecision and ambiguity. Days will go by, I'll ask friends, and I'll never figure it out.
Neurodivergent alert?
Autism and generalized anxiety share a lot of similarities! A big one: getting paralyzed by all the possibilities in ambiguous situations.
The whole point is to make your statements ambiguous so that you never have to commit to anything
@@myrmidion44 This literally happens to everyone. The internet has made you all believe that any conflicting situation one can find themselves in must be a sign of mental illness. But in reality, everyone struggles with the exact same things from time to time.
@@rinsekai According to your social media logic everyone is neurodivergent.
i keep rewarching videos ive watched from you before and then being taken aback by alk the other videos of yours that I've watched but were entirely unrelated in my mind
I have a friend who would use 🙄 as his thinking emoji, because "thats how he looks when he thinks". Certainly caused a lot of miscommunication haha. It's the little things we dont stop to think about
A good "thinking" emoji would be similar to what's shown when the computer is busy.
This is exactly what happened with 😤.
@@ShankarSivarajan bros vaping
@@ShankarSivarajan elaborate, please
I used 🤔before for thinking that’s something odd or peculiar, but I can also see it being used in a sarcastic or suspicious way.
Example: Is that *really* just orange juice you’re drinking? 🤔
i think /lh (lighthearted) and /nm (not mad) are the most useful tone indicators for me. i have hard time telling when someone is genuinely upset or if they're jokingly upset (ex: "i hate you" used non-seriously) and i can sometimes interpret simple statements as trying to pick a fight so /lh makes situations less tense
What's up with just saying "I'm not saying this cos I'm mad btw, I'm not mad at you!!"?? why are we inventing weird code
/lh has been a godsent for me lmao i need people to know that i mean something in a chill unserious way. emojis are cool too but arent always what im looking for message wise
@@birdie8006 people having been shortening things over text for a long time (lol, lmao, btw... you get the point) so this isnt a new concept or anything. the original tone indicator, /s, has existed for several years
/lh and /nm feel so passive aggressive to me ngl. like the fact you felt the need to specify that you're not mad just makes me assume that you *are* mad
@@JoeBurrowSucks to be fair, my partner and I rage together on discord over life events and often we have to specify it with /nmay (not mad at you) because we are both on the spectrum as well as me having BPD. Having tone indicators helps me to separate my personal feelings from the situation, to manage my condition.
the jan Misali channel is the only channel we can name that will, without prompting, drop an 18 minute video essay about something, and we're already on board for it before we even realized it was incoming
He just is objectively right, but proves it too
fredrik knudsen
If you follow them on tumblr you’d have seen this one coming
@@grant9637 - don't worry! we do exactly that
@@tetsuoumezawa5833 I did not know I was interested in naval warfare before that last video
i wrote a comment like 3 months ago or something about how i couldn't even make an actual comment about the concept of "half-joking" because everything was already addressed, and that's still basically true because what i'm about to say is very related to what you said in the video, but while i was rewatching today i could feel that i wanted to say something, and it ended up being a lot more than it started as. it isn't really supposed to be helpful, just my own personal thoughts, but i guess it could potentially be.
i personally believe that "half-joking" as a term _started out_ with the express purpose of being unclear - like, to me, the first few times i saw it, that's basically what it was to me, because every time i talked to someone who used the term (not even talking about /hj) they just didn't seem like they wanted me to know what they meant. indeed, this is your 3rd definition of /hj, plus it's also my own specific interpretation of "half-joking," which is why i said this was basically addressed - you defined my interpretation, and said everyone has their own.
i think there's more to say about /hj3, though. there's a number of reasons why they wouldn't want me to know - waiting for a response, not sure if it's true, still wondering whether to do something related, don't want me to be sure, even for no reason, etc - and those are mostly valid for me, but it's unclear by nature and by that point i have to figure out which reason it is by talking further. "/hj" further complicates things because "/hj" is distinct from "half-joking" _to me_ in that it's (usually...) being used in an attempt to make something more clear, which makes it much more likely to be one of the first 2 definitions, forming a tree of meaning that is very large for something specifically meant to make things more clear. half-joking in its full form also has a non zero chance of meaning /hj1 or /hj2, just like "/hj", so it's entirely possible it was just a "simpler" communication solution for me to always interpret it as intentionally unclear - 1, it being unclear is something i won't bother reading between the lines for, and therefore it _can_ mean the other two. 2, /hj1 and /hj2 boil down to "this is true"/"this is ultimately not a joke" or "this is not true"/"this is ultimately a joke" for me, and i can usually figure out which of those it is WITHOUT "/hj," and if i can't, i can ask.
this, of course, as the title states, makes it clear that /hj as a clarification tool is worse than useless - and this brings me to the last conclusion i had while having a good think about this, which is that i now believe that /hj was added to the tone indicator pool as an actual indicator of tone. IF you don't have any type of issue communicating, it is possible to use inflection and pacing to let the person you're talking to know you're not only making a joke, but not being fully clear whether you're joking. this is probably harder to notice than sarcasm, both in real life and through text, which makes it sad that this could have had a real use (edit: the "real use" being "clarifying the intent" of being unclear instead of clarifying the deeper intent) if we lived in an idealistic world where everyone had the same definition of "half-joking."
that's all
The concept of half-joking to me is like a tone superposition. Basically the answer whether it's serious or a joke is "yes"
exactly, this video completely misses the point, the ambiguity is the point
@@tsu08761e but if the ambiguity is the point, why would you use a tone indicator (tool for clarifying intent) to obscure your intent? How much orange juice are you buying???
@@ClaraDeLemon well they are probably buying a lot but a realistic amount of orange juice
Like a normal amount is 1 maybe 2 packs
An absurd amount would be like 30 packs but basically no one can buy that amount
So buying a /hj amount of orange juice would be maybe 5-6 packs
In the orange juice case it's basically saying "I'm exaggerating for the purpose of a joke"
@@ClaraDeLemon the function changes depending on the sentence, but the ambiguity isnt actual confusion over the whole sentence, its like a shield saying "adding this makes me able to not be seen as weird because im being hyperbolic/silly/etc"
@@MortalWizard I can imagine several instances where you could be buying 30 packs of orange juice for something, a quantity you would obviously find absurd, and use /hj to indicate that you appreciate the humor in the situation even though it is really happening, that's the second definition that was mentioned in the video
I love how I'm not autistic but can absolutely understand your frustration. I was also asking myself multiple times "So which half is the joke??"
I've got news for you buddy
@@raykirushiroyshi2752 /hj ?
@@raykirushiroyshi2752 Uh-oh...are you /srs or /j or /hj?
@@kasane1337 I'm definitely /hj
undiagnosed moment
On the topic of “an absurd amount of orange juice /hj”:
I think the half-joke is a case of using absurd as an overstatement. Buying 12 L of orange juice isn’t literally absurd, but it is a lot. This is used to differentiate from the joking tone indicator which suggests you’re not buying orange juice at all.
I don't think that's quite it. The speaker in the oj example _is_ factually buying an absurd amount of orange juice, or at least an amount they would self-describe as absurd. They're saying it in a "joking" tone, but they're entirely serious (in a self-deprecating kind of way).
see but like
what is that indicator providing? is it just saying "please appreciate the humor of this situation"? functioning essentially the same as a laugh track or a 😅 emoji?
As others ahve said laugh emoji works here OR you could say
@@nothayley it is saying that its not literally true. "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice" = "im going to order a 1000 gallon tanker of OJ on amazon". "im going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" = "im going to the store and buying 20 packages of OJ, amount thats unusual but not absurd". /hj = "interpret it as half the intensity"
@@iivarimokelainen how do you quantify half? how do you know which part of the statement is being dulled in intensity? are they in a purgatory between buying and not buying orange juice? how is this the optimal way to communicate whatever you're trying to communicate?
i’ve come to the conclusion it means “i do mean this, but not enough that anyone should argue with me about it”
jan Misali trying to figure out the meaning of "i am going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /hj" is the highlight of my day
edit: sorry to be that person but this is the first time something like this has happened... MAMA I'M FAMOUS~ ✨️✨️✨️
yes
I do not know which one that means either.
i think that would mean that theyre buying orange juice but just a normal amount
@@graelmirI thought they were buying much more orange juice than normal but not enough to be an "absurd" amount
@@viniciusgoulart5077 that was my understanding but this just proves jan Misali's point.
I love Mitch's exhausted voice at the concept of "/pos"
Yeah, I still hate that 1, it's less than useless, if you're saying something to me as a compliment just use nice words! say you're smart instead of you're a nerd /pos. and /neg is even worse, like if you're being an asshole, how weaksauce are your insults that a clarifier is needed?
Jan is legit experiencing tone indicators like one might experience learning a foreign language, except in this case, the foreign languages in question are Tumblr and Twitter, which DEFINITELY makes it worse.
It's funny to see someone using Jan as if was a first name xD
The "jan" is a Toki Pona word for "person" and it's used before people's names, so "jan Misali" means simply "a person named Mitch" (or something like that, Toki Pona changes non-Toki Pona words).
@@amadeosendiulo2137 ohhhhhhhh
The funny part is that from what I’ve seen most of tumblr uses a completely different idea and set of tone indicators then Twitter.
@@Kizaco yeah tru, in my experience, since tumblr doesn't have a character limit, when someone's being sarcastic they can just say "I'm being sarcastic here btw" or put [sarcasm] in brackets like I do. They have much more utility on twitter because they're short, and easier to fit into the character limit, so I much less often see them used outside twitter in a non-joking manner (I think its pretty interesting!)
Oh and there's one I used just now, without a character limit you can just explain your intent in plain text at the end of your sentence! Language is so cool
@@amadeosendiulo2137 Jan is a common first name where I'm from, I hadnt realised what was its real meaning
This scares me and I’ve never even seen /hj before in the wild
I'm glad you touched onto the "tentative statement I'm willing to retcon as a joke if it meets criticism and I change my opinion about it" use of language. I feel it's increasingly common and very interesting.
Schrodinger's douchebag phenomenon
I feel almost as often as it is used that way it is used to say you agree with the statement (or maybe a less extreme version of the statement), but you are making a self deprecating joke about being the kind of person who would fall back on the fact that they were joking.
"I'm better at basketball than MJ lowkey /hj" could be mean the following:
1. I think I am good at basketball
2. I am playing a character as a self deprecating joke who thinks they are better than Michael Jordan
3. This character would retcon this statement if they are pressed on it
@@narratormusic7749 For a second, I was wondering why you would compare your basketball skills to Michael Jackson.
Schrödinger’s jokester
Yeah. Seems especially common with people who know they have an opinion most consider weird or awful but want the ability to pretend they were joking if called on it. Very similar type of plausible deniability to dogwhistle phrases. Half-jokes are a thing, but usually only among *very* close friends with an intricate knowledge of your beliefs or sense of humor IRL, and if used with strangers, then almost always clarified with an actual quick sentence “I’m mostly joking, though i do sincerely think x or y,” not just tone-unless ambiguity is the point.
I feel like "half-joking" generally applies to situations where one doesn't feel comfortable expressing certain thoughts, and hints at the truth behind a mask of humor. For example saying "wow that old car is sadder than I am /hj" would indicate a self-deprecating joke that hides genuine feelings of low self-esteem
This is just usage 1 from the video, no? The statement is a joke but the sentiment is true.
the problem with this is that stating you're half joking is outright saying that you are feeling down, thus entirely removing the point of masking w/humor at all.
@@jessehunter362 without the abbreviation it would probably sound a bit too serious and self depricating.
@@jessehunter362 It indicates that the statement is to be taken seriously, but not as something that is actionable, i.e. I want to communicate the sentiment that I'm a sad and miserable person, but I don't want you to respond to that communication
**screaming**
GOD DAMNIT ANOTHER MEANING
(i am not mad at you i just struggle with communication and multiple definitions confuse me)
The threat tone indicator has to be the greatest discovery of my life. Thanks for this. Have a nice day /th
the thing about the /th indicator is that it is too absurd to be used unironically, but if you used it ironically then that would be doing a disservice to the intention of tone indicators. like if all ur friends are okay with it then it probably doesn't matter but im not sure about it lmao
@@anty. solution: use two indicators, /th for the threat, and a /s to indicate the /th is sarcastic
or create a new indicator /ths to combine the two
/hj
to be literal: i dont actually believe this, im writing out some potentially logical extensions to the tone indicator system as a way of demonstrating how absurd it is
Your family loves you /th
how i usually interpret and use /hj is basically "i agree w this but its also kinda exagerating and a joke" yknow? like another person said a shorter way of saying "for legal reasons this is a joke"
When you said "a logical contradiction and perhaps a type-five paradox" I had to pause the video just to smile really hard into space. I genuinely love these videos so much. Please never change
More likes on this comment please
@@joesmith9920 I'm doing my part
Amen!
“I wonder how long it will be before we’re just straight-up narrating ourselves using quotation marks and dialogue tags,” she typed, hoping this sentiment wasn’t expressed in the latter 2/3s of the video, which she admittedly hadn’t watched yet. The joke- or maybe it was a half-joke, she thought cheekily- felt solid enough, and Sunfish didn’t want to risk it being shoved out of her mind by another thought.
ETA: It was hubris, she later realized, and twenty-six replies in, it seemed she was reaping what she had sown. Sunfish’s notifications were lost to these replies, each tap of the bell an exercise in disappointment. But how could she ask them to stop? These people were only having fun. Perhaps it was the highlight in someone’s day. Who was she to take that away from them?
Still, she had to wonder if one of these enthusiastic young souls was carrying this torch forth into the wilds of the internet. Had she been the Frankenstein to some lumbering creature wreaking havoc in another comments section? Was this even a valid allusion? Did the Creature really do anything wrong? Sunfish hadn’t actually read that book.
"Why is there no reply here" I thought to myself, the cold breezing wind came hitting me like a truck.
lol good one
too lazy to follow the gag, sorry.
"haha yes", he wrote, amused by the last statement while being absolutely incapable of coming up with something funnier. "I gotta say this is one of the most original comment I've seen in a while". Pleased by his remark, he laid back in his seat, re-reading his words to make sure everything was perfect /hj (
@@fernando47180 "lol good one," Fernando wrote with a light chuckle. Wanting to be part of the comedic writing, he thought of how he could narrate his own reaction, but laziness struck his brain like a plague, blanking any attempts at finding coherent narrative writing. "The least I could do is let them know," he thought, to which his brain agreed to. "too lazy to follow the gag, sorry." That should do the trick. After considering proof-reading - and laziness striking again - Fernando opted to click Reply and call it a day.
Alex read the comment and laughed in her head. That was clever and she wondered if she could continue this joke in the replies. Looking below the message, she realised there were several responses already and clicking the button marked '4 replies', her suspicions were confirmed. although it may not be original, Alex decided to join in anyway and began to type into the box with a gradually developing idea. "Alex read the comment and laughed in her head." she began, thinking it best to begin not with a thought or speech but a description. she continued, "That was clever and she wondered if she could continue this joke in the replies. Looking below the message, she realised
In my experience the ideal use case for tone indicators is *within a group of people that all know each other at least in passing and use them consistently*. Which seems to me must have been the original intended use case. As soon as they escape into the "wild" they simply become a part of the language and are therefore subject to all the standard ambiguities that they're meant to help avoid.
And I think this is especially true of /hj. When said to a stranger it could mean anything, when used between a group of friends who already know each other it's a lot easier to decipher
the same thing with tone irl. a random might have 0 idea what your tone means when you change it, but your friends almost always know.
Exactly how I use them, that's how my friend group has stuff like /dlb (deliberately obtuse, pretending to not get the joke so as to play along) which makes absolutely 0 sense outside of the context of our conversations and I would never expect some random person to get it. Tone indicators are sadly language.
oh absolutely, 100%. the only tone indicator i use w strangers is "/s" or possibly "/j" specifically because of this ambiguity, but w my friends i use "/hj" and "/lh" and "/gen" and "/pos" etc. regularly and there they all actually tend to work. sometimes when i meet new people who use these same tone indicators it takes a while to get a sense of what they mean by them, but once i've known someone for a while i can get pretty confident about what they're meaning, a lot quicker than i can learn to pick up the same patterns in terms of, say, tone or expression cues or stuff like that.
I just don’t like them in general. If you can’t write a sentence clear enough for people to decipher and understand ESPECIALLY in a friend group, I’m unsure why you are talking in the first place.
THANK YOU for making this video! I'm not autistic (but I'm also not nuerotypical) and literally everyone around me thinks that /hj is intuitive. It isn't. At all. I now have a nice little video to send to people to explain why to them without struggling through an argument about it. Thank you.
I think the ambiguity feels like a courtesy for neurotypical people, because we're able to derive all sorts of meanings from the single statement *intuitively*. Thank you for explaining how much of a nightmare it can be if that process isn't intuitive! I never would've thought about that if not for this video
i love listening to smart people talk about completely random things
Considering it's about tone indicators I wouldn't say smart
@@HitTheFloor16it is smart though, it's founded and researched, just about an otherwise very dumb topic☠️
@@HitTheFloor16whats dumb about trying to convey tone through text?
@@averagetwink. no hate to gay people but I'm not gonna argue with someone who has twink in their name
@@HitTheFloor16 how's it dumb? the topic may be, but it is very well researched and presented
I'm so happy you pointed out that tone indicators are functionally used as trendy internet slang. Like yes it's great that they are used for accessibility and clarification in many circles, but sometimes it seems like just a halfhearted way to clarify intent with as little effort as possible.
edit: to be clear I don't think that like, nobody should try to make their intentions clear, or that if people aren't making themselves clear with a statement they shouldn't say something. Obfuscating intent or being ambiguous is just kind of, something that people do, for lots of different reasons, and I don't think that's going to ever change for a lot of people. And even when people aren't purposefully doing this, not understanding or misinterpreting things is just a human experience I think. idk man socializing is always going to be complicated and it's definitely good to try and make ourselves clear, but it's never gonna be 100% unless we all merge our consciousnesses together like in The End of Evangelion.
I think this is what bothers me most about the current use of tone indicators. Increasingly it's just a lazy way to cover for an inability to be clearly understood. If you're unsure about how a comment might be interpreted or don't want a negative reaction, maybe you shouldn't say anything. And then there are people who use them deliberately to obfuscate what they mean so they can be little shits but not be called out on it. I really don't like such trends, it's like a soft version of trolling behavior.
Tone insicators just genuinely suck. If you want to make yourself clear, then just write more to show the intent and meaning. Write, like, two more sentences with the same tone. We have the means to convey sarcasm through text by using extended vowels and absurd repetition.
Humans making even more problems for themselves for no reason... yet again.
The only time I've used /s was as a joking way to indicate that interpreting my post as anything other than sarcasm would be silly and that the sarcasm should be self evident... So yes, it's a potentially good idea ruined by people like me.
@@Bobbias No, you're using the tone indicator correctly. If you intended something to be taken seriously and used the sarcasm tag then you'd be ruining it, but really what you're doing when you add it to an obviously sarcastic statement is just introducing people to the usage of /s to indicate sarcasm in text-based forums, which can only be a good thing really
Yeah :((
For me personally, I just find them sorta confusing, so I usually rephrase my statement to avoid confusion, or clarify my statement later if I didn’t make myself clear already. However, if there is a person that indicates to me that tone indicators are useful to them, I will absolutely use them for that person!
I LOVE YOU DUDE!! i'm diagnosed autistic and honestly tone indicators SUCK, because every time someone sends one that isn't /j or /srs, i don't know what they're on about, and i have to google it, or stay in the dark. it's not helpful.
Never ran into /hj before and was really confused on how handjobs could be a tone.
"I'm feeling great right now /hj"
😂
This video comes up on my feed again every once in a while. And not being a user of tone markers myself, I’ll have completely forgotten about the concept. So my brain just goes “oh cool a jan Misali video? …about handjobs? Oh right”
I always interpret /hj as "I'm completely serious but I've said something offensive or harmful and want to pass it up as a joke"
I usually see /hj as "I'm being hyperbolic", but it is kind of a floaty thing that doesn't mean much on its own, which is what tone indicators are supposed to be here to help with.
Yeah, I think a lot of its use cases could be better replaced by a hyperbole indicator.
@@WhirligigStudios there is in fact a hyperbole indicator (/hyp) that I've seen used within one friend circle at least a couple times. Definitely better than using /hj for the same purpose imo.
Cool so that's another definition I have to deal with.
Why not say jk then
In almost every case, /hj is being used to convey that someone is being hyperbolic. This thing is happening or I feel this way, so I am going to intentionally exaggerate what is happening or how I feel so that it is now funny. In the case of the orange juice example, the reason why /hj makes more sense than /j, /j /g, or /g is because they are intending to convery that hyperbole. /j makes no sense, because /j implies they will not be doing that action, while /g makes no sense because they do not actually intend to buy an 'absurd' amount of orange juice. /j /g doesn't make sense because it implies that they will both buy a large amount of orange juice and buy none at all. This is why asking "which half is the joke" makes people think you are missing the point. Neither half is a joke. It does't neccessarily even mean 'half' of it is a joke. The same way /s is meant to convey sarcasm and /j is meant to convey playful intent, /hj is meant to convery hyperbole. It's just there to say you are exaggerating. This is why, in the case of the cat video example, most people intuitively will default to the first provided definition. What is being exaggerated is most likely "greatest" so they will assume you meant that is was great, but not the greatest, hence the half-joke. This is why it's difficult for people to properly explain why /hj is intuitive. It's just not as obvious of an intent as sarcasm or joking, but it is a seperate and distinct intent.
The reason I said "almost every" case is because that third definition exists. People will intentionally use strong wording so they can play the "how serious did I mean this strong wording" game. That's what I call a Schrödinger's joke, because it is both a joke and not a joke until an outside force observes it and makes it's opinion known, where it collapses into one of the two options. In this case, using /hj is actually good faith, because they are acknowledging their position instead of forcing people to interact with them to find out.
I somehow never considered the fact that buying an "absurd amount" of something could mean buying a "zero amount" of it ; and for some reason, this is exceedingly funny to me. That why i would chose this meaning : it's the one that amuse me the most . So that's one way to do it : if the statement is not meant to be clear (or meant to be unclear), no one, in my eyes, can complain that i could go and misinterpret it, gleefully and with wild abandon.
Reminds me of the fairly common idea in atheist-theist exchanges when morality comes up, and the theist asserts religion keeps people from raping and murdering, and the atheist says "You're right, I raped and murdered every person I wanted to - which is exactly zero persons".
I enjoy this very much.
I love this so much
The orange juice example strikes me as "I feel a need to put an indicator on everything I post so I'm going to slap a useless indicator on a statement that is already fine due to the use of the word 'absurd'"
The culture surrounding obsessive tone indicators creates need for indicators on otherwise fine statements.
Fr I hate the overuse of them “omg I love this so much /gen” like what other way is there to interpret that statement it feels like I’m being talked down to
@muddybuddy3598 I thought that abt like 80% of them, like if I said "I'm going to kill your entire family" but I forget the /th like how would you interpret that? like without a tone marking is it just meaning
@MuddyBuddy sometimes I'll use it when I'm giving a compliment which I'm afraid might come across as sarcastic. like "wow that looks GREAT" that could be read as sarcastic or genuine and I'd hate to hurt the feelings of someone I'm complimenting.
there's a tiktok trend going around which I hate where someone who looks or acts out of the ordinary but is confident posts something and all the comments are insults disguised as compliments. I'll use /gen especially then, because I'd hate to be lumped in with that crowd when I'm trying to cheer someone up. I do get your perspective, but personally, as someone with anxiety I get really anxious about being misunderstood. using /gen on a compliment reassures me that I made myself as clear as possible.
Was it meant to be a joke or meant to be serious? That “half joke” thing doesn’t make sense there. How can that specific statement be a joke but also genuine? You either buy a truckload of orange juice or you don’t.
While what you’re saying is literally true, I don’t know if you’re really arguing in good faith here. Calling it “culture” sounds similar to “cancel culture,” which makes me think (please correct me if I’m wrong) that you’re decrying it as entirely useless, which is an argument that ableist internet funnypeople stuck in post-gamergate 2016 tend to parrot. Again, I’m not entirely sure if that’s what you meant, so please do clarify.
/hj is for when you say something flirty to a friend but don't know if they like you back and you don't want to get rejected
Lmao the comment above this one for me is literally someone's experience with /hj getting someone into a mentally abusive relationship with their crush
@@premonitiative Wait, what?
@@Baenstelker ill copy it for u:
Ava Combs
"/hj is the bane of my existence, I’m not even exaggerating either. In 2021 I reconnected with a middle school friend and started talking to him regularly. I had feelings for him and he confessed to me he did too, before taking it back a week later. I was ultimately very upset but I started to just think about him as a friend again. However, he would send me these flirty messages and talk about us hooking up, I would respond accordingly as I still had feelings, but afterwards he would say that everything he said was /hj. He did this multiple times, leading to a mental abusive relationship, getting me to send him photos under the idea he liked me and actually wanted to be with me before taking it all back with a /hj. He would do this often, leaving me confused every time we would talk and he would say very explicit sexual words and send nude photos. He abused the half-joking tone and made it into something it absolutely isn’t supposed to be used for. I never used tone indicators before and trying to figure out what was a joke and what wasn’t when the very mixed signals were going on. He ruined a good year of my life and anyone who uses tone indicators in a malicious way like this is cruel. Don’t be like this guy."
Too real.
@@bojdrak Oh, God. I'm so sorry, that's disgusting. Your poor friend. Are they okay, now? And are they comfortable with this being shared? I don't want them to feel bad.
Talking to you would be so fun /hj
I'M KIDDING, the whole previous sentence, including the tone indicator, was a joke :P
I actually do think talking to you would probably be awesome cuz things would be way more clear than when talking to other people. Which is always great.
i have always thought “/hj” as “highly joking” so knowing that its “HALF joking” makes me wonder how many texts i have interpreted wrong…
also this video makes my poor small brain malfunction, great work… /hj1
I'm not even neurodivergent and thought this. Caused me so much confusion
Now all we need is someone to explain "quarter joking" /qj
I thought it was "hard joking"
This is exactly what I thought haha
The /hj tone indicator is an interesting one. It reminds me a lot of what people in a different circle refer to as post-irony/meta-irony. It's intentionally ambiguous, and that gives a unique feeling to how you are speaking and what you are trying to convey.
In the example given about orange juice, I interpreted it as "I am buying a larger than normal amount of orange juice, so I will use hyperbole by stating that it is absurd and letting everyone know that I recognize that it is larger than normal, but I am still doing so sincerely." It's almost like "I know that I am saying something that can be interpreted as a joke/outlandish, and I am expressing it as if it were a joke/outlandish to let you know that I know that it can be interpreted that way", no matter if they mean the statement seriously or not. It can be used to intentionally mask your intent, thereby saying nothing and deflecting harm, but can also be used as a way to recognize absurdity itself.
It's like meme culture, how most "funny" things from the outside seem like they have no set-up and are just "loud noise" and "fast movement". But in most cases the set-up is the fact that you have lived on the internet and have thus gotten through the in-joke barriers already, the loud noise and funny movement is either usually a reference to an in-joke or an absurd and unexpected punch-line that is different from what was set-up for the audience. This type of expression is purposefully ambiguous and hard for outsiders to understand, but those who do connect to it enjoy it a lot, usually as a reflection of their own complex feelings/experiences.
Anyway, love this video! /hj
@@astoranaut okay /pos
But... they already recognized the absurdity by saying absurd.
The /hj is redundant when / is suppose to add meaning and clarity when it is already clear.
Meme culture isn't a double negative when you mean single there is still structure to it even if you have to understand it.
This is also how I interpreted the statement. I almost feel like /hj should only be used in closed circles where everyone has the same knowledge of everyone else’s opinions and inside jokes (not that I think it’s wrong to use it elsewhere, just that you shouldn’t expect strangers to understand).
I also agree with the part about “just say what you mean”, but I also know from experience that people usually dislike it when you explain a joke (not completely sure why 🤷♂️) and so they may use /hj to imply “there’s more to this than a surface level inspection may provide, but you can safely go about your day without looking too much further into it since it wasn’t important”.
All that to say damn, I feel like there should be a word for that specifically… @HBMmaster
I interpreted it as being equivalent to the ‘I am going to buy an absurd amount of orange juice /j /srs’ case. The sentiment seems to me to be ‘I’m going to buy a huge amount of orange juice. I’m just joking. Or am I?’
Which means that /hj is bad at what it’s ostensibly for because *even if you want to be ambiguous*, it’s actually ambiguous *how* you’re being ambiguous.
That rant at the end about how they're all abbreviated resonated with me on SUCH a deep level. I remember getting peeved about how all these indicators are abbreviations and how not everyone knows all of them, and how one of them can mean two different things, and someone got on my ass and called me ableist for it. Bro, I'm autistic. You're doing these things for *me.* It really irritated me. The only reason I can think people abbreviate them is for Twitter character limits, and even then, just break it up into two Tweets if you can't fit it all into one. Nobody's going to care that they have to read a second Tweet. What started as a thing to help with accessibility has become a gatekeeper to communication. Yes, the key to the gate is a Google search away, but there shouldn't be a gate there in the first place. Just clarify it in your original text so I can understand you from the get-go!!
Anyway, great video! You summed my thoughts perfectly.
People abbreviate cause they're probably lazy, to them it makes sense and they don't care/think about if it does to everyone else (which is stupid but ig expected from twitter)
Lol, what lead you to believe tone indicators were invented _for_ austistic people? Austistic or not, it's sometimes difficult to tell sarcasm in just text
I am also autistic, And if we're being real, Every tone indicator except sarcasm makes sentences at least _slightly_ more confusing for me. Truthfully, Considering the fact that _basically_ everywhere I talk supports markup now, I *_infinitely_* prefer using formatting to emphasize tone in things compared to tone indicators which make me stop and think what someone means. I would honestly legitimately rather have a misunderstanding which I have to clear up myself rather than pausing to try and parse what someone means by a tone indicator. And, Like, I _get_ that it helps some autistic and neurotypical people. But it actively makes things harder for me to parse.
"What started as a thing to help with accessibility has become a gatekeeper to communication. Yes, the key to the gate is a Google search away,"
Well, people say google is your friend all the time because some people don't do any research. So, yeah. Your point makes sense.
I abbreviate for a mix of saving time while on my phone cause I'm a slow typer and conversations pass very quickly sometimes and often feeling like putting too much text into the tone indication makes it *more* ambiguous since you're putting emphasis on the tone and making it clearly intentional which might change the meaning vs a short little addition that just tips the tone scales a little bit (though this might just be my own neurosis)
People are always good to just ask if they don't know/remember what something means, too, everybody uses their own variant of the system and we all want to help each other understand one another 👍 it works in spaces I'm in at least, also my condolences to the people calling you ablist I've had a neurotypical go on and on about how I should be using tone indicators more but she's gone now :)