QnA: The Bible on Women's Ordination? Head coverings? When there is no good church?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- Pastors Bryan Wolfmueller and Andrew Packer answer your theological and Biblical questions. In this episode we take up questions about:
The Bible on Women's Ordination?
Head coverings?
When there is no good church?
Send your questions to www.wolfmueller.co/contact.
Also, don’t forget to sign up for the free weekly email, Wednesday What-Not, www.wolfmueller.co/wednesday
Pastor Wolfmueller serves St Paul and Jesus Deaf Lutheran Churches in Austin, TX.
Pastor Packer serves Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Collinsville, IL.
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Driving an hour isn't all about time but also safety, especially in winter. As a woman I am so glad you gave clear reasons for women not being pastors. It is so clear in the Bible. I have never heard head coverings presented in this way and connected to a prophetess. It makes so much sense!
I am glad to see the headcovering being discussed in a positive way. It is a blessing and a biblical command. The same spirit that comes with female ordination is the same spirit that has put away the headcovering. Well done, sirs! God bless!
Genesis 3:15,16
Thanks for y'alls Scripture centered answers, as always. Godspeed and God's peace be with you.
What a great round of questions and answers. Very edifying. I am a member of that body in Germany that is currently undergoing the debate on the ordination of women. I think you have both addressed the topic very well. After having had some conversations myself and exchanged arguments with those responsible for this initiative in Germany, I can assure you that the beginning of this problem is having stopped submitting to the authority of the Scriptures and having reached the level of relativizing biblical truth. And as we have seen in other church bodies that have carried it out, that does not end with the ordination of women, but always goes one step further. I could say more but you have already said everything. The only thing I can say is that this problem has two fronts, and the other front is the permission and lack of reaction on the part of the church body. Honestly, this part is the one that worries me the most. One of the great problems that this body has in Germany is the lack of adequate catechization of the laity. The theological foundations are practically non-existent and this makes it difficult to address or defend oneself from the attacks of the spirit of the time and false teachings.
People who want women pastors are following after their own hearts desires, leaning on their own understanding. It is listening to that ancient snake all over again.
One question would be if the gospel will be spread or stopped by female pastors. Would Jesus want to exclude women?
Yep and I'm from Germany and you're so right
We drive 1.5 hrs to a good Lutheran Church. We hope to move down the road
I appreciate your reasoning for only male pastors, the idea that men are protectors. I think it is important also for the men and boys in the congregation to be led by a man, as men need other men to help them realize their calling and also to hold each other to account. Somehow a woman simply cannot do that.
Right out of the Promise Keeper’s handbook right there and a good handbook it is btw.
In the entire state of Maine there r only 3 LCMS congregations. Talk about a lot of driving....yeah even through our nasty winter. There r some ELCA churches but they're so off the rails I skip them and go to an independent Baptist church most Sundays. When it has communion, I attend my LCMS church that's an hour away. I am thankful the LCMS church has a YT channel so I can watch their weekly Divine service. I highly recommend ownng ur own small catechism that has all the questions and answers. They cost about $17.00. It's much easier to understand than the Book of Concord.
Let’s bring head coverings back to the church! Every single Christian denomination practiced this until the 20th century
I agree. For me, head covering is a sign of respect, so I practice it out of reverence. If it was good enough for the women in the early church, it’s good enough for me too. So far, I am the only one who covers my head in church, but the reception by my fellow parishioners has been mostly positive.
Did you originate in the USA illegally or through someone who did?
Women at the Roman Catholic Latin Mass generally wear a head covering, this practice has never stopped.
Amen! I love the head covering practice. It's so beautiful.
There were two women in Fort Atkinson Wisconsin in the late 1920s who were expelled from their teaching positions for accusing the pastor of a Lutheran school there, of not being strong enough on the stance of girls bobbing their hair and dancing “loosely”. This also kicked off the Protes’tant Lutheran controversy in 1927. We’re wayyyyyy beyond that now.
Good Lord, please, send a Pastor and Church to Cape May County NJ
This was very well done. Blessings to you both.
I need this discussion so badly. Thank you. I grew up Catholic and m husband was Presbyterian and now has a small charismatic church which I disagree with a lot of the theology I'm now very reformed but there are no good churches near by save one which I will try soon. So man liberal Presbyterian and Lutheran churches.
This was great. I really appreciate your videos.
Awesome, informative video guys. Please keep ‘em coming!
I am so blessed. There are three LCM congregations within 10 minutes of my house. I would drive an hour though if I had to.
As a Lutheran lady, I believe men should be Pastors, they represent Jesus and God who goes by male identity, the name for God in Genesis is Elohim which is a male plural tense. Women who want to serve God can still be Sunday school teachers, school teachers, deconesses, and can lead a women's Bible study.
Women's lib has affected our thinking. It has affected male identity, if we have more woman Pastors it will make many men feel less part of the church. Also if you have recent converts to Christianity who come from Muslim backgrounds they will walk away from the church if they see women Pastors.
Another reason against women Pastors is that in the Old Testament God ordained men to be Priests.
Another reason for men Pastors is that sometimes they have to excommunicate people and as a woman this would be emotionally hard for me, I think men can emotionally detach themselves when necessary. I would rather trust God's judgment than my own.
Thank you for the great study.
Looking forward to confessional Lutheran churches to emerge in the Netherlands!
We are blessed with a Dutch pastor here in Australia. You can’t have him back.
veiling is becoming more popular for our Catholic sisters especially if attending the Latin Mass. I would like to see it introduced in the Lutheran church. We veil everything that is holy...e.g. the Eucharist , the altar, etc...
Long Island NY we broadcast our service online (with a bulletin) and a group of people in AZ that do not have a church have found us. Sadly, that isn't ideal.
For the first couple thousand years it was throughly understood that women weren’t pastors. This is the result of our current culture that has taken God’s economy of man and women’s roles in our day to day tasks and confused them so that the home life of the church and world is dismantled. How many marriages have failed? All as a result of man handing their positions over to women. And we’ve allowed it.
Another great share. As women who think they want to be pastors, can they not direct their efforts to lead their own Bible studies, or is this better done under the guidance of a pastor?
Become a deaconess.
It’s interesting you mention urban vs country. We have visited 15 LCA churches travelling around Australia.
We have found “the mindset” of the community of believers really drives the church.
Sadly we have found some country LCA churches that are on their last steps to closing but others going strong.
It’s all in the mindset.
I think the urban/city churches can learn a lot from the community of a country churches.
Maybe Lutheran pastors 1.) should preach a little longer each sermon and 2.) preach a little more doctrinal instruction. If you look at pre-20th century Lutheran sermons, they used the “five-fold”” method of teaching Scripture (doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness, encouragement). The Law/Gospel distinction was not a sermon template, but to be applied in the course of the exposition of Scripture. I’d like to see that method reasserted from the Lutheran pulpit, even if it means the sermon is a little bit longer than usual.
I agree. And I have preached 30+ minute sermons a number of times.
It's interesting that in 1 Cor 11 in the same thought, men should be uncovered. Try walking into church with a cowboy hat on today, yes even today that is considered inappropriate. Someone will call you out. My wife covers because she wishes to honor me her husband and to show her submission to God.
"Because of the Angels"?
For this reason, and because the angels are watching, a woman should wear a covering on her head to show she is under authority. 1 Corinthians 11:10
Oh pastor, ive been very deep in study and prayer about veiling. Some LCMS leadership say it is cultural. I dont think so. The because of the angels is ehat concerns me the most. Also, order of creation and why, especially in this day and age, wouldnt the church want to give witness to this?
I believe it's universal. If you "veil," and it's not in a Catholic Church, best to do it in as nonconspicuous way (hat, etc). I have found that headcovering in some churches raises the ire of some women.
I’m with you on headcovering
I am a convert from Islam, and I miss the head covering! I am ok in day to day life, but wow I feel naked when I pray.
the ELCA has a position called a Synodically Authorized Minister. It is a layperson who has taken a years worth of training. They are specially authorized to conduct services and bless the meal at specific congregations. It is an interim measure until congregations can call a rostered minister. Does the Missouri Synod have a similar position? Your thoughts on the SAM program?
I go to Messiah Lutheran in St. Louis which is LCMS though we do have quite a bit of elca wacko churches here. I love my church here and my Pastors are just fantastic. Pastors maybe you have been to it??
What do you think about the practice of women veiling for the divine service?
When a smorgasbordian tries to pick what they like to follow from the Word, and rationalize what they don't like, perhaps they should ask themselves the question: Is it the writer's word, or the Holy Spirit's Word? "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."
Listened to you on youtube and wondering if you are saying that Holy Spirit is not as active in the church now, ie. tongues and prophesy, as he was in Acts etc.
Some good points about women's ordination.
To continue with headcoverings...What about "for the sake of the angles"? Can you explain that part in scripture?
Most likely Paul was thinking about the situation described in Gen. 6:1-5.
Question for Pastor Bryan: As an ELCA Lutheran almost my entire life, except for 11 years with the LCMS, are we as ELCA/LCMS Lutherans, are we not brothers and sisters in Christ? Why so much division between Lutheran Churches? I just cannot understand or accept it. 72 years a Lutheran, can you explain? I can accept all religions, just cannot participate in the Catholic Church. That’s the only one.
I believe tongues is for today if by tongues you mean speaking in a foreign language like in Acts for missionary purposes. I’m not sure if prophesy has ceased if you mean proclaiming the word of God. But foretelling the future may have ended with Revelation. Your teaching on head coverings makes so much more sense then it was just part of the culture. My old church is going to start ordaining women as associate but not head pastors. I asked my if she was going to have to wear a head covering if she was preaching. The answer was no. What if a women prays in church out loud or reads a Bible verse. Should she cover her head?
Is there a link for that article you mentioned at 27:30 about androgyny being the pagan/gnostic ideal?
Pastor Packer seriously has to get some new headphones. These might be good quality, but they are so crazy huge, they are a distraction in all these videos. They look like they came off of a short-wave radio from 1984. Lol.
The camera and audio quality is also very poor (in comparison to Bryan's), which makes it appear worse than it is. If you all are going to continue doing these jointly, I'd recommend earbuds (if you must have in-ears at all), and a better video/audio setup to equally match the quality of BW's. Other than that....good stuff! :)
Lol
We're so fortunate to have you both making time for us, thank you so much. I think there is some truth to this comment, however. The difference in video quality between the two of you is stark and a little bit distracting. Of course, we want to be focused on the content, not so much appearances, but I hope some time Rev. Packer can get an upgrade. :)
A wonderful Christian friend that knows Yiddish, took me aside and told me the English meaning of the word Smuck. Once I knew I stopped using it. Check for yourself.
I wish you would have discussed the church availability issue in greater depth. The issue even in Lutheran churches stateside is the cancer that is spreading. There may be an LCMS church but with essentially an ELCA pastor. I haven’t seen it in LCMS yet but If your saying sparkle creeds and such is it even church anymore? And LCMS today seems to be where ELCA was 5 years ago and speeding towards that cliff. I am of the opinion that if a sermon or practice is contrary to the Word it shouldn’t be a sermon.
I have heard (with no embellishment) in an LCMS church a sermon hypothesizing about heavens sanitation systems. An half hour sermon on the merits of socialism, and so so many sermons on race in a building where there is supposed to be no Jew or Greek yet the congregation is chastised for now having enough melanin in the pews and told to pray for forgiveness for racism that most of us don’t feel.
I agree 100% with your comments and conclusions on women’s ordination. Even if those were specific to those churches then why and what conditions lead to that. We don’t know for sure so it’s better to go with the plain text.
BUT
As far as head coverings go why wouldn’t the same logic apply. You yourself conceded that the verses you cite MIGHT be talking about regular prayer. So why do we take a chance here but not there?
You brought up that there are not other places where women’s ordination is permitted, but with head coverings being explained as “long hair is to a woman’s glory” we can see similar ideas in 1 Peter 3:3 and 1 Timothy 2:9-10.
Also we know God never changes, the word never changes so logically we probably shouldn’t be changing on Biblical issues. Did women cover their hair in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd centuries? I can’t find many photos of adult women in Lutheran church congregations without their hair covered until about the 1960’s. Why did we change? Was it Gods word or worldly pressures that changed?
I am not advocating for telling women that they can’t pass the narthex without a head scarf or while wearing makeup but rather we should support women in covering their hair and not being vain.
My point is that maybe, just maybe, we are loosing members and not gaining new members stateside because instead of speaking Gods word we water it down in order to have more faith in societal pressures instead of faith in God. Perhaps a message that is popular is society doesn’t ring true so people don’t stay. What if, just what if we put our faith in God to bless our churches.
The apostolic age was mentioned a couple of times. Reference John 20:23-23. Is the office of the keys an apostolic age thing. A friend tells me, “your pastor cannot pronounce absolution”. He does not have biblical authority.
Would very much like that question answered as well. Good post.
I'm not gonna try to answer the question, but I just want to point out how absurd it is to assume that doing the MAIN thing Jesus came for, has ended or should not be done. The forgiveness of sins is the first thing Jesus pronounces to the lame man who was lowered into his presence. That all the other things ceased to exist makes sense, but not the office of the keys, which is the whole point of having and going to The Church.
One question...If I memorize the creeds, the 10 commandments and the Lord's Prayer...and that is it...would I know that that taking a single girl out on a date and having a one night stand with her is sinful?
Why would you hold to a continuationist position regarding male headship, while holding to a cessationist position regarding prophetesses?
Good podcast until you got to women’s head coverings. Then you laid an egg.
The idea that head covering was limited to prophetic work is a completely new and ahistorical teaching. Limiting head covering to the apostolic age is also ahistorical and false. Women head coverings the norm in most Christian churches into the 1960’s. Head coverings began to fall out of favor only in 1968 as a result of a campaign from N.O.W., a feminist organization that encouraged women to stop wearing them as a way of denying male headship in the church.
Seems to me that what separates Lutherans from other denominations is the belief that Lutheran pastors hold the keys to heaven and speak for Jesus on earth. Hearing the word preached by a Lutheran pastor is of higher value than teading the Bible yourself. Having a Lutheran pastor hand out the bread makes it special if anybother person does that it just does not count. In short the Lutheran pastor functions as a Medicine Man.
Other than that, Lutherans believe what all other Bible believing people believe.
It still isn't clear to me whether or not women should be wearing head coverings in church (or when praying).
...because the hair instead of a covering hath been given to her...
In your own selves judge ye; is it seemly for a woman uncovered to pray to God? doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man indeed have long hair, a dishonour it is to him? and a woman, if she have long hair, a glory it is to her, because the hair instead of a covering hath been given to her;...
-Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Does even nature itself not teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her as a covering.
-NASB
A woman's long hair is the 'covering'.
If a fabric covering is actually required,
then all references to hair are
totally irrelevant to the subject.
It only can make sense if the
long hair of a woman is the 'covering'.
She should be covered, with her long hair.
To have short hair, like a man, means that
she is basically bald. Therefore uncovered.
@@8784-l3b Bad hermeneutics. Remember all the verses before that which mandate a proper head covering for women who already have hair, never specifying short hair. The long hair is only later brought up as a proof for further head covering within the context of church.
At around the 23 minute mark you say how Paul would have known about women priestesses. He did, not only from other religions but from his own. He praises Junia and calls her an apostle. Modern day scholarship also believes that those two verses you cited are forgeries and it doesn’t align with Paul’s authentic writings. So why don’t you stop using them as proof text for misogyny? Why do you have to treat women as if they’re beneath you?
Jesus warned against lording over. His way is the mind of humility and servanthood. Do we see pastoral role as lording over or being servants? 2 Timothy 1:5 and 3:14,15 hint at the wisdom imparted to Timothy from childhood had much to do with the faith which dwelt in his grandmother Lois and his mother Eunice, which is a vital tribute to the role of bringing up children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. No small task in these times... That said, it would be good to hear 1 Timothy 2:15 unpacked, as to women being saved or preserved (NASB) through the bearing of children. Thanks and God bless.
So are you a secessionist, the gifts ceased after the closing of the canon of Scripture? I see this as a tortured view of 1 Corinthians 13:8. Daughters prophesying would not make them pastors.
“In the metropolis of Fort Wayne…”. HAHAHAHA
Where can I find more from Andrew?
People who think women should be pastors don't seem to realise that the bible excludes like, 90% of men too.
So Andrew Packer asks..."where does this obliteration between man and woman come from". How about from St. Paul? Galatians 3:27-28 You were baptized into union with Christ and now you are clothed, so to speak, with the life of Christ himself. so there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jews and Gentiles, between slaves and free men, between men and women, you are all one in union with Christ Jesus."
Then why does Paul in later epistles give different and specific roles to husbands and wives? Galatians 3 is clearly about faith in Christ's promises, which were for everyone without distinction. It is not about overturning roles or covenants established by God.
acording to scripture woman cannot speak that chapture is talking about speaking in tounges in timothy it says woman cannot teach in mathew jesus commands us everyone men women and yes children to go preach baptizing in yhe name of god the father jesus the son and the holy spirit in corithians tells us the women need to wear head coverings when they do so or in worship and prayer
Miriam had some gifts from the Spirit. Look what happened when her slice of pie was not enough and she wanted the whole pie. So women who want to be pastor should be cast out of the church until they repent. Churches should not be having this discussion. People should just be expelled from the church until they figure it out.
What’s wrong with a Lutheran partaking of the lords supper with a non denominational pastor?
If you read the book of Concord you will actually see Lutheran's do NOT believe in a "physical" presence as you stated. Lutheran's believe Christ is "truly" present but does not take up physical space. Book of Concord talks about the different "modes" Christ can be present and states the mode of His presence in the Supper is "spiritual" and again, not physical.
Unfortunately many LCMS pastors don't know our own confessions or the historic, orthodox Lutheran faith which has been taught since 1530 in Augsburg, and reaffirmed in 1580 with the publishing of Formula of Concord. If you don't believe me watch Dr. Jordan Cooper's video on this unfortunate misunderstanding by many Lutheran's today who are mistaken when they believe or state Lutheranism believes in a "physical" presence. If you believe Christ's "physical" earthly body is present in the bread, you should consider converting to another denomination as Lutheranism doesn't teach or believe that. (Who is your pastor who teaches Christ is "physically" present in the Supper?) I wish I could post screenshots of our confessions here but I can't. We NEVER use the word "physical". We say He is "truly" present. He's "essentially" present. It's a "real" presence. But never "physical". It doesn't take up physical space. Our Lutheran confessions teach against this belief actually by explaining how we receive Christ through "spiritual eating" and speaks how we do not receive Him in a "Capernaitic" way, (which would then be a physical presence). This in no way denies His "true" or real presence. The Formula of Concord specifically refers to a twofold eating of Christ's flesh. One being spiritual and the other sacramental.
Luther writes about Christ's three "modes" of presence. First, His physical or corporeal presence such as when he walked physically on earth. Second, His "spiritual" or "uncircumscribed" mode. And thirdly, His divine "heavenly" mode. Read the Formula, section VII on the Lord's Body and the Sacrament. It literally states regarding which "mode" Christ is present in the Supper and states it is "spiritual". I'll quote verbatim from it here, "This is also how we want the word 'spiritually' to be understood when we say that in Holy Supper Christ's body and blood are spiritually received, eaten, and drunk. Even though this participation happens with the mouth, the way it happens is spiritual." [End quote.]
It then goes on to state, "With heart and mouth we reject and condemn as false, erroneous, and misleading, all errors that do not agree with, but contradict and oppose the doctrine mentioned above." (Which was referring directly to my other quote just above this.) So to actually believe and teach Christ is "physically" present is not only NOT Lutheran, but our Lutheran church confessionally rejects and condemns such a belief. Your pastor should be reminded of this.
@@LutheranSage Does it even matter? Right now I believe there is a sacramental union and spiritual relation to the sacraments as stated in the Westminster confession ch. 27.2 but the church I’m currently attending Is a baptist church and I’m pretty sure they don’t think that, and that’s it’s only a remembrance of Christs work. And I don’t think I could attend and not partake just because they might not believe in it? As 27.3 of the Westminster confession say “ the grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, it’s not conferred buy any power in them; neither does the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that doth administer it; but upon the work of the Holy Spirit..” so who cares if they don’t intend to administer it with a pious view of the spiritual relation as long as it’s administered reverently and in accordance with the word? Or am I missing something?
@@Mason_O Sorry, but des what matter? I'm confused. Both of my comments were in response to @intheschoolofgodandnature comment about Christ's presence, not your comment about Lutherans communing with non-Lutherans.
@@LutheranSage does it matter that one partakes of the table with those who administer it with a different belief of what their administering than I believe their administering? (Granted they don’t believe like the papists) Or why the pastor in the video says a Lutheran shouldn’t partake of communion with a non denominational pastor? I’m not Lutheran so I was wondering why does it matter?
It is so odd seeing such jovial and ... well, apathetic "shepherds" in a time when the once Nation, spirals into a Godless, open border, Babylonian Synagogue. It makes you questions what would need to happen to make these types actually shepherd.
Wait, are you excusing us of being apathetic?
@@andrewpacker2592 You are being excused of being considered a shepherd.
Perhaps you should stop trying to sheep steal from other Christian’s and actually try and evangelise non-believers.
Satan is using a lot of distractions like this, and it breaks my heart. Where "missions" has become converting between denominations, rather than reaching the lost, who know not Christ at all.