What a tear jerker seeing Pr Wolfmueller again, after his wonderful presentations in Australia. I have one reservation about adult Bible class and that is, the pastor has to have the discipline to prepare beforehand. There is nothing worse than a Bible study where everyone sits around in a circle discussing what the text means to them. It can be very shallow with the ignorant and uninformed leading the ignorant and uninformed. It suggests that new relevation is a possibility, if not a requirement! No wonder the church has fragmented in so many ways.
It was so good to have been able to hear some of Pastor Bryan's address in Hamilton Australia. I believe that many Lutherans in Australia are in favour of women's ordination because of the diminishing availability of male pastors and the knowledge that the number of men currently studying for ministry is minuscule. Here in the North Tasmania parish we have always had adult Bible study. In my opinion this is where the explained Word is crucial to growing in faith. We continue to be blessed by having just recently had our call affirmed by a young confessional pastor. Let us all continue to pray that common sense within the hierarchy of the LCA and the church in Germany prevails.
Thank you so much for raising a discussion about women ordination in Australia. I believe the LCA is facing a multitude of problems, Woman’s ordination is just one of them.
Have you ever read the Lutheran publication, "How are the Mighty Fallen?" It documents the sad apostasy of the Lutheran church in Australia beginning with the formation of the LCA in 1966 based upon the unscriptural foundation of the do called "theses of agreement". In fact, Scripture teaches: The Doctrine of Church Fellowship. It was officially held in the Lutheran church Missouri Synod until 1945 and by the old ELCA / ELSA in Australia until 1966. It appears in The Brief Statement of 1932 and wax taught in Australia by Dr TH Nickel and in USA by Dr Walther and Dr Franz Pieper. The doctrine of church fellowship is still the bedrock principle of the confessional Lutheran LCR churches in the USA and of the independent ELCR confessional Lutheran churches in Australia. It is taught in such passages as Jeremiah 15:19; Jeremiah 23:28; Romans 16:17-18; 1 Corinthians 1:10. In Australia there was a major convention in the South Australian town of Eudunda in 1902 regarding this doctrine. The previous year, Missouri Synod Dr AL Graebner had proposed a thoroughly scriptural outline be discussed and an essay written. To that end Graebner drew up a set of guidelines in 1901. Following this, Dr TH Nickel wrote and presented his famous essay on the doctrine of church fellowship in 1902. It continued to be held by the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Australia) until sadly in 1966 it apostasised from the historic faith. The liberals that were undermining the Christian faith knew that they had to get the church to compromise in this doctrine. And from there the decay and steady slide into open departure from the Word has been relentless ever since. The LCA has taken steps to align itself ever more closely with liberalism and unbelief and even with the Roman Catholic religion and the pagan and unscientific belief in evolution. So it comes as no surprise that the unbelievers within are pushing for ordination of women, contrary to the command of Christ (1 Corinthians 14:37)
@@biglap.australia How many Catholic, mormon, reformed, and liberal Lutheran churches do I need to visit to know the doctrine is contrary to Scripture? I do live in Australia. I was born overseas and was raised as a confessional Lutheran. When my parents came to Australia they initially attended the LCA but were always utterly disgusted with the wishy washy attitude to doctrine and Scripture. Early in my adulthood, my parents initially attended a WELS church, but as soon as they found a sound independent confessional Lutheran church they joined with that. I myself began my own journey in early adulthood. I could not stomach LCA and was initially drawn to conservative reformed Christianity. But the more I studied Scripture, especially using the original languages, the more I realised how far the entire visible church (reformed and liberal Lutheran) is from the historic faith. The great joy for me was to rediscover the historic faith and to embrace the re-expression if it found in the book of Concord. But, in fact, the reformation principle of "Scripture Alone" has been my guiding principle long before understanding the doctrine set forth so clearly by the Lutheran fathers. In Australia there are a number of independent Bible believing confessional churches in fact. The largest of these is the ELCR which formed immediately after the counter scriptural union of the ELCA with the liberal UELCA in 1966. And in the USA there exists the LCR and the CLC which separated from Missouri for similar reasons. I have had contact with these three groups and tremendous respect for them. As for the LCA, there exist two groups. The conservatives which are few and the liberals which are the majority. But I have two things against the conservatives within the LCA: 1) They are disobedient to the Lord. Scripture commands us to MARK and AVOID those who teach alongside (παρά) the Doctrine we have received (ie the Apostolic Doctrine, Romans 16:17, 18, See also: Acts 2:42, Jude 1:3; Ephesians 2:20). We cannot MARK and AVOID whilst remaining in a church that tolerates false doctrine alongside truth. Even the reformed get that much. And the Koine Greek is strikingly clear. The use of the preposition παρά in Romans 16:17, from which we get the word "parallel", makes it abundantly clear that it is error taught in tandemn with truth that is so contrary to the command of God. We are not called to protest from within. But we are commanded to: MARK and AVOID. And Paul warns: If anyone think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, LET HIM ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE THINGS THAT I WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. (1 Corinthians 14:37) So to stay within a liberal Lutheran church is to be living in disobedience to the Lord. 2) We read such wonderful words in the Book of Concord. I saw Pastor Wolfmuller selling the latest edition complete with conservative commentary notes. How they extol the Lutherans of the past who did not hold their peace but fearlessly confessed he truth and were willing to lose all to follow God's Word. But the dead lutherans of the past have done their duty. It is to the living Lutherans of today that the duty has fallen to carry the same confession . Why is it that a cult of veneration has developed in the Lutheran Chur he whereby we praise the brave Lutherans of the past but then go in to do the very opposi5of then in the present !? These forerunners confronted error and confessed the truth. Thy were CONFESSIONAL LUTHERANS. And they SEPARATED from error. They separated from the church of the Antichrist (Rome). They separated from Majorism, they separated from the Zwinglians, they separated from the crypto Calvinists. They did not love separation of course and they strove mightility for a UNITY based upon Scripture Alone. But where that was not possible, the fault was not on their side . And that duty has fallen to the Lutherans today. Whosoever would compromise had fallen into the camp of Zwingli and Melanchthon. They have disobeyed their Lord and departed already from the faith. So it's time to take a stand. The question in this video is absurd in fact, "whether there are enough confessional Lutherans to come out and firm a new church". Even if there is just one true believer, the duty is to come out of the false teaching church (2 Corinthians 6:17; Revelation 18:4; Jeremiah 15:19). In 1966, pastor Frederick Kleing was already 66. He had left the ministry 20 years earlier when the ELCA was still a conservative church. And so he was shocked when he re-entered the ministry around 1965, because he saw how far liberalism had crept even into that formerly conservative body (The former ELCA). And he determined to have no part in such denial of the Word. But Pastor Kleinig openly stated that he did not care about losing his pension or prestige. He stated he was prepared to work with a pickaxe if it meant confessing the truth and standing against error. And he refused to be part of that unscriptural UNION which led to the creation of the LCA, founded on departure from the Word. We can respect such an example of faith. But still, in every instance, our allegiance must be to God and his Word: "A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye HEAR IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER He shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, WHICH WILL NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET, SHALL BE DESTROYED from among the people." (Acts 3:22, 23) He that hears you hears Me; and he that despises you despises Me; and he that despises Me despises Him that sent Me. (Luke 10:16)
We had a pastor that introduced the “unified service” where Sunday school would be after the sermon and before the benediction. He thought that would get the adults into Sunday school. It backfired and a group left the church.
Here in New Zealand have the same problem with it. We're sort of attached to Australia. I suspended my membership when my local congregation voted to support the heresy of women pastors. I was in Australia and lucky to met a congregation that was very conservative. Sadly a small church mostly old people. But I met a very nice pastor. He told me about your visit, sadly I couldn't make it
I can't stress enough the importance of learning how to read the Bible in context. I was raised Byzantine Catholic, then went to Assembly of God & nondenominational charismatic churches, and we were not taught properly, taking verses way out of context. It led to so much error, and one was actual heresy (that Jesus laid aside his divinity while on earth - in a nondenominational church). It took us years to unlearn it all and through our journey are now confessional Lutheran, Praise God! And we will continue to learn the rest of our lives! I'm just really concerned that if someone goes to an unbiblical church, error & deception will creep into their theology possibly leading to apostasy so learning to read the Bible correctly is extremely important so it will help them choose the right church & recognize error when they hear it. Our past church experience was very painful but so grateful God led us out of false doctrine!
It’s interesting that the so-called “Gnostic gospels”, like the “Gospel of Thomas” are just collections of sayings, supposedly of Jesus. They don’t have the historical narrative of the true Gospels. These “charismatic churches” are basically Gnostic and deny the existence of absolute, historical truth, looking only for sayings from “ enlightened leaders”. They don’t look for or care about context.
I used to go to AOG. Very, very good church. Strong on the word and doctrine. They don't teach (kenotic theology) that Jesus laid aside his divinity. You are wrong. Been in the movement my whole life. AOG is virtually Baptist with tongues. Very conservative orthodox views. Instead, they affirm the doctrine of the Incarnation, which holds that Jesus Christ is both fully divine and fully human. You are misrepresenting the AOG. If you think Lutheranism has it all, you will be very disappointed. Lutheranism has allowed apostacy at a worse level into their churches. I'm currently studying (as a Pentecostal) in a confessional Lutheran context (Masters of Theology) which allows same sex ordinations!! So I find your comments about false doctrine ironic and unfortunate. Even the Pentecostals you now claim are unbiblical, have stood strong against LQBQT+ and that spirit has been kept out of those churches. I actually am convinced that the charismata gifts has something to do with it. So as much as I love Lutheran theology, it didn't stop their church being ripped apart into schism.
@ntlearning These days, unfortunately, every church needs to be checked out individually in every denomination. I didn't say AOG specifically taught that heresy as part of their doctrine. I said we went to AOG AND nondenominational churches (1 pastor was AGIF - Assemblies of God International who broke off from AOG due to politics). I'm sorry, but you misunderstood me. This was our experience in the churches we attended. Not all Lutheran synods (denominations) are the same. Check LCMS, AALC, WELS who are confessional, and I'm probably missing a few.
@@susieqds7351 hmmmm it wasn't clear but ok. I'm associated with a small LCMS group at the moment, and I'm seeing some "cracks" here too. My post was to infer two things: no church is perfect, and second, for all their warts and pimples, the AOG has not bowed the knee to the LGBQT spirit like Lutheranism did. The irony. And that's why I don't believe the Lutheran Church is better. We have to stand with our brothers and sisters. I'm sorry you went through some bad experiences. But try and not be sectarian.
@@ntlearningconfessional Lutheran Churches DO NOT ordain women. The confessional means that they adhere to the Augsburg Confession as a statement of belief. The largest "Lutheran " denomination in the US, the ELCA while giving lip service to the Augsburg Confession and the Bible accept only those parts they agree with. They not only ordain women, they ordained a lesbian as bishop. As someone said LCMS, WELS and AALC are confessional. WELS is in pulpit and honor fellowship with ELS so I would add them. But remember that this is at a synod level. There are deviant congregations. There are also non theological differences. For instance I know a WELS congregation that has early service traditional services with organ music and the pastors in vestments and late service with a ( mediocre) praise band and the pastors wearing suits. Same sermon, mostly the same liturgy. The congregation dresses very casual. Another WELS congregation streams its services and they are all traditional. The elders usually wear suits and most of the rest of the congregation dresses nicely. ( no shorts, no t shirts etc.)
When I was 15, I rebelled...when I didn't go to church on Sunday, I was very bored for the rest of the week; no T.V., no radio, no C.D.'s, no secular books, etc. It sounds strict, but I've since thanked my mom dozens of times 🤷♀️
My daughter is almost 19 and hasn't been to church in 6 months. Our wonderful young children are being dragged away to the world. I hope she makes it back to God's world.
I am a life long LCMS member. Lutheran church membership goes back to Germany on my dad's side. When I saw social justice stuff on the national site, I thought about leaving since it is unbiblical. I would leave in a minute if the LCMS does something like ordain women.
To where would you go? As a distraught Episcopalian, the fact we are over-run by women usurping that role, contrary to God's word. We have more problems on top of that, famously. So, to where???
@@dnzswithwombatsPastor Rudolph Kurz wrote a book called "Feminism and the Church" (Omni Publications, 1991). In his book, Kurz documented with evidence the deliberate infiltration and attack made upon the church and the family. He showed that the Frankist / Freemason / Illuminati control of global media and universities (read also seminaries) is very deliberate. It should come as no surprise something so obviously wrong and umbilical as "women's ordination" should be pushed in the church. This is not by God but rather a subterfuge designed to undermine and destroy the church. Indeed, one of my contacts , a former lodge member, confirmed the deliberate targeting of Christian churches. And many of their false prophets exist inside the church as wolves in sheep's clothing. But the solution is rather simple, return to Scripture Alone. Obey Christ and expel false teachers. Leave churches that will not follow Christ and condemn them openly.. Jeremiah 23:28.. John 8:31
That discussion about the comparison between the 2 prayers versus the 3 prayers Stephen and Jesus prayed at the end of their lives was super powerful. Gave me chills, and I cried trying convey it to my family. Great stuff.
LCA pastor, sorry I wasn’t able to join the conference, I really appreciated the personal video message. Regarding Sunday Adult instruction, this is an impossibility for the majority of pastors because they are preaching in 2 or 3 locations on a Sunday and it is only set to increase with the decrease in membership.
Me too! WELS does have it's own problems as well, but my pastors seem to be completely faithful to the Scripture and the historical confession. After leaving evangelicalism which trampled the Word under its feet and gave me Spiritual PTSD, God blessed me with my current pastors. At the time all the LCMS churches in my area were part of Willow Creek Assoc for access to their material. I steered clear of them because of this.
LCMS has already broken fellowship with the Japan church over the women’s ordination issue, right? Maybe it is time for it to align with some of the small confessional groups in the USA, at least. Or come up with a quasi pastoral deacon/deaconess position.
The point of adult catechesis makes me think of the culture of the Spartans, but instead of being equipped for wars of the flesh, we are equipped for spiritual warfare. To have as many of your people equipped like this, means that you can move as one with less resistance. If this oneness is in the Spirit, then it can only be good.
Just for clarification from an LCA member, the proposal is “one church, two practices” and such a model still requires a two third majority since TA 5.11 would still need to be removed.
Changing our doctrine or practices will never make the World love us! We need to cling to the teaching of God's Word and not worry about what the World thinks!
I was raised Baptist before changing to Lutheran. I grew up in evangelical Christian schools where the students were Methodist, Nazarene, Baptist, Assembly of God, etc. All our churches had Sunday school and Bible study for all ages. Is this primarily an American experience? My knowledge of theology comes from sermons, Bible studies, youth groups, and chapel time.
I appreciate the comment on laity that are interested in theology. I have taken a deep dive into theology that I never expected, and people are saying I ought to go to seminary. I'm just not sure that I ought to uproot everything I've worked on to become a pastor. I have so many evangelistic opportunities as a layperson.
I totally agree that you go to the church that is the most faithful. My LCMS does a lot of nonsense. Women readers, a woman president, the LWML Sunday where the women take over a lot of the service, etc.
My early background is MS - father a pastor. I have attended non denominational churches for a long time - choosing them by holding to a MS doctrine standard as possible. When I attended Valparaiso, there were ‘Deaconesses’. Do these still exist? Did they teach/preach?
The problem for most of the SELK-pastors is that there is hardly any time to have adult sunday school because most pastors have several congregations in several places where they have to drive to celebrate the divine service on sundays.
The Lutheran church in Australia did indeed form a unionist fellowship from two fundamentally different church bodies. The ELCA (ELSA) was formerly a conservative confessional Lutheran body in fellowship with Missouri. And it formerly held to The Doctrine of Church Fellowship taught in passages such as Romans 16:17, 18 and 1 Corinthians 1:10; Jeremiah 15:19; Jeremiah 23:28. The UELCA, however, was a highly liberal "Lutheran" church body. It had a long history of heterodoxy and liberalism. And the Lutherans of the 1950s and 1960s were sold a lie: Such that somehow forming a forced and artificial "union" between these fundamentally different churches would be a good thing for them. Whatever had become if those faithful confessional Lutherans of the period of the formula of Concord? Those Lutherans understood the necessity on unity of pure doctrine. Those faithful Christians understood the necessity of flushing out the fixes, by insistence not only on staying what is true, but also on condeming what is false. And they understood that THEY MUST STAND IN THEIR DAY. It 8s no use to praise the dead Lutherans of the past and not follow in their confessional footsteps in the present. The gauntlet has been passed down to us. The living have the solemn and sacred duty of standing upon the Word and defending it againat all. Why sing "And take they our life, good child fame and wife" only to cower in doctrinal compromise wity the agents of Satan working within the visible church today. Jesus warned us that false prophets would emerge. Are we so surprised ? Jude warned us and Peter warned us also that such false teachers would appear (Jude 1:3; 2 Peter 2:1) , why are so many Lutherans so complacent ? Take your stand ! But the outward "unity" in the Australian church if 1966 was an impossibility, in fact. And thus the "theses of agreement" was utilised in a subterfuge to deceive the lay people into accepting an unscriptural church union. Many pastors at that time was the danger and warned of the unscriptural nature of this union and consequent departure from the faith. However existing conservative church bodies were given all sorts of assurances, only to find that their church property was forfeit under the union. And this made it very hard for them to leave the new unionistic liberal LCA church. Several ELCA churches did, however, refuse to join this union, especially in Queensland. And they formed an independent Bible believing and confessional Lutheran church called the Evangelical Lutheran Congregations of the Reformation. (ELCR). And they later called Pastor Frederick Kleing to be their first pastor. Following this time, a history of the ELCA church leading up to the unscriptural "theses of agreement" was published. This history was called "How are the Mighty Fallen", published by Pastor Gavin Winter. It detailed how far the confessional Lutheran church in Australia had fallen from the truth. The problems today in the LCA as with all sectarian churches lies in their departure from the Word of the Lord. God calls all Christians to return to Scripture Alone. This is not just a Laurel of the past. The Christian faith must be defended and contended in every age (Jude 1:3). Lutherans today are all too willing to talk about how the Lutheran fathers of the last stood on Sola Scriptura and how the "old timers" would not budge an inch when they later put together the various Lutheran symbols at the time of the Book of Concord. Yet the Lutherans of today completely miss the point, that they too MUST TAKE A STAND and COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM (2 Corinthians 6:17; Jeremiah 15:19). (What use is it to refer to the Lutherans of the past while completely missing their duty in the present? Unity in faith and doctrine does not come by compromise wity error. And today's false prophets in the LCA will keep on pushing their agenda until the few confessionals in the LCA are an extinct voice and all faith is dead. Already in the days of the Apostle Paul, he warned about the corruption of the Word of God (2 Corinthians 2:17). Are we so naive as to imagine that things shall be any less dramatic today? And the Apostle warned us all that it should be no great surprise to us that Satan's ministers are transformed into "ministers of righteousness" (2 Corinthians 11:15). Should we be so shocked that such ministers are found EVERYWHERE throughout the church ? It is not just in the sectarian churches where such ministers are found. If the ministers of Satan plagued the Apostolic church, why should it be a surprise to discover that the ministers of Satan are to be found at the very heart of the LCA and all liberal Lutheran churches? It is not for nothing that Scripture teaches the Doctrine of Church Fellowship which requires unity in all points of doctrine (1 Corinthians 1:10). Its time to return to the historic faith. Christ makes it conditional to be a true Christian. We must hold to His Word and His Word ALONE. IF you continue in My Word, THEN are you my disciples indeed (John 8:31) "Therefore thus saith the LORD, IF you return, then will I bring you again, and you shalt stand before Me. And IF you take forth the precious from the vile, you shall be as My mouth. Let them return unto you, but return not you unto them." (Jeremiah 15:19) The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and HE THAT HAS MY WORD, LET HIM SPEAK MY WORD FAITHFULLY. What is the chaff to the wheat? says the LORD. (Jeremiah 23:28)
You are right about Adult Bible study. It's a great place to ask questions that pertain to our lives. It is important for men to be more involved, you see, children see Mom doing and being involved in a lot of things, but when Dad doesn't participate it speaks volumes, because most men won't do stuff they don't think are important. Regarding women ordained, I think we shouldn't ordain women, here is why, Pastors sometimes have to excommunicated people, I think as a woman I would have a hard time excommunication. Also if you have new converts from Islam, a woman Pastor might be what makes them walk away. Another reason is the Pastor is to be the representative of Christ and Jesus was a man, God is referred to as He also. I don't want gender neutral ideas entered into the Bible. Women can lead children's Sunday school and women's Bible study. We don't need to take more things away from men. We should encourage men to participate.
After 35 years in an ELCA member, I joined an LCMS church because close to home, got permission from the Pastor to commune and become a member. It sounds like you are saying that I committed two sins by becoming a member and by communing, even though the Pastor granted both. Am I understand this correctly? It sounds like the LCMS is as close to Catholic as you can get.
20:16 It is the progressive tendency of many so-called conservatives. To be Conservative meant you understood institutions-whether that be schools, universities, seminaries, churches, families, neighborhoods, etc.-helped us to live out our values. To be a conservative was to support and value institutions. It wasn’t about a list of issues. To win on every issue but lose the institutions is to win the battle to lose the war.
As someone who is drawn to Lutheranism, I would need to walk out if a woman gets up to preach. Or if I knew beforehand, not go to church when a woman is preaching. There isn't a lot of choice where I live.
One doctrine, two practices will fail. I’ve seen it happen. I’m a convert to the LCMS, and my former church allowed ordination of women in one small area of the country. Officially, the church does not ordain women, but they also don’t discipline pastors/congregations that do ordain them. Well, the ordination has not stayed in one area but has spread to many other parts of the country and is now firmly entrenched. Signing a document recognizing that is now just a formality recognizing an established fact. And that is very likely what would happen in Australia.
I'm a bit confused.....suppose someone is attending a non-Lutheran church and is wondering if they can commune. Does the Lord make Communion what it is (His body and blood under the bread and wine) or does man determine what it is? If Christ told us what Communion is, who has the right to change that?
As Pastor Wolfmueller said, go to the closest one (theologically) so I go to a catholic now where they have communion in both kinds (bread and wine). And in every mass. Luther was a Catholic Priest who tried to reform the Church, I go to a Catholic Church that has at least listened to Luther in this regard
So when you have Sunday school 😢class is that instead of socializing? Over coffee? Cause that is vitally important. Nothing worse than the catholic thing that everyone runs out after mass without saying hi
@@andrewpacker2592 yes I had at one point two churches. One for the service....the other one for coffee and chat. Always slipped in after the service which I didn't wanna listen to anyway.
To us, the most important point here was "you have to go to church somewhere." (Heb. 10:25) So, if your church doctrinely implodes and there is no other geographic alternative, wouldn't a good solution be to gather like-minded Christians together in a home church for the Word and Sacraments? (laity with, perhaps the occasional circuit rider pastor, as opposed to attending another denomination's church)
I love the fact that the LCMS does not ordain women. Women are equal to men in many aspects, but Jesus called 12 men to disciple with Him. There were many women who followed Him and some would be recognized Saints but…
The advice to go to any church has been on my mind. I can't make sense of it. Is there anything in scripture to suggest going to any church? To not partake of the Lord's Supper? Nothing comes to mind. I can't think of anything from scripture to support this. Maybe I can find things in scripture to make an argument? What if I am fine with eating meat that was sacrificed to idols? Shouldn't I be able to eat bread from the catholic church or the eastern orthodox church? It's just meat sacrificed to idols. Scripture said I should eat what is put in front of me? Actually I completely disagree with these pastors. If I go to any church, I might as well eat. Because of what Jesus said about eating whatever is put in front of me, What Paul said about meat sacrificed to idols. More importantly I disagree about going to any church. Catholics and eastern orthodox are idolaters and I don't even consider them Christian. So I can eat their bread and wine no problem, it is just food sacrificed to idols. The problem is I should never go to their churches because it is pagan idol worship. I would rather go to a mosque if there is no Lutheran church. If I am wrong, someone convince me with scripture alone. Otherwise I need to fix the Lutheran church and its teaching. Thanks.
Why Bible study class? Pastors are to teach through their sermons as it has always been Sermons should be at least 30 minutes long to have some content
I don’t quite understand why folks don’t go to adult bible class. We laugh and make comments about life. Learn the Bible. Drink coffee. Eat donuts. It’s fun!
Paul greeting coworkers in Christ and the church in their houses does not equate to female pastorship. Can women speak the good news of the gospel to unbelievers? Yes, the Holy Spirit will use many means to impart the gift of faith! But does this mean they can preach from a pulpit and be a shepherd of a congregation? No! By they very man who you are referencing (Paul), he explicitly denies it in multiple places. - 1 Timothy 2:12-14 - 1 Timothy 3:12-13 - Titus 1:5-9 - 1 Timothy 3:2 As Pastor Bryan says this is not an issue of women’s ordination, it is a symptom of the main disease infecting the church body. The issue is around the inerrancy and infallibility of the scriptures. The day we start pulling parts out of the holy scriptures and saying ‘this is true, this is not’ or ‘this is not what was meant by that’ despite it being very clear to the contrary is the day we cease being faithful Christians. Women’s ordination is not an issue about women in the church, it is an issue about not believing Jesus who is the Word. ‘For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.’ Hebrews 4:12-13 God bless you brother
@@StudentDad-mc3puleaders aren't necessarily pastors, but yes there have been women leaders and still are. It's good to recognise them and how God has worked through them.
I’m being catechized into the LCMS. I would not be entering a church where women are pastors. Women pastors lead to liberalism. The church I grew up in has decayed over the years so that I cannot go back. It is a liberal women’s social club, not a place to confront and confess one’s sin. Congregationalist btw, sadly a proud tradition taken over by false and weak teachings.
12:30 they must. That's what happened in America to form the AALC. Why wait. It's only gotten worse in 35 years. God would bless them. Mark and avoid. Boom! Like God will abandon you for being faithful to scripture? No.
Dr CFW Walther writes: 'The spirit of the Zwinglian, Calvinist and ... UNIONIST CHURCHES is nothing else than the Rationalistic spirit. [It is] the spirit of doubt and uncertainty, which, like unenlightened and unregenerate Nicodemus, queries before the mystery of the Holy Scriptures: "How can these things be?" (John 3:9) "That passes my comprehension; that is contrary to my reason" When people of this character make concessions, they give you no assurance of reliability. THIS IS PLAINLY SHOWN BY THEIR ENTERING INTO UNION WITH PEOPLE WHO TEACH DOCTRINES CONTRARY TO THEIR OWN' Emphasis added (Walther, CFW., 1986, Law and Gospel, Concordia Publishing House, St Louis, p. 166)
Pastor Wolfmueller nailed it. Caving in to the culture hardly prevents being swept by the culture. It is the culture - DEI
What a tear jerker seeing Pr Wolfmueller again, after his wonderful presentations in Australia. I have one reservation about adult Bible class and that is, the pastor has to have the discipline to prepare beforehand. There is nothing worse than a Bible study where everyone sits around in a circle discussing what the text means to them. It can be very shallow with the ignorant and uninformed leading the ignorant and uninformed. It suggests that new relevation is a possibility, if not a requirement! No wonder the church has fragmented in so many ways.
It was so good to have been able to hear some of Pastor Bryan's address in Hamilton Australia.
I believe that many Lutherans in Australia are in favour of women's ordination because of the diminishing availability of male pastors and the knowledge that the number of men currently studying for ministry is minuscule.
Here in the North Tasmania parish we have always had adult Bible study. In my opinion this is where the explained Word is crucial to growing in faith. We continue to be blessed by having just recently had our call affirmed by a young confessional pastor. Let us all continue to pray that common sense within the hierarchy of the LCA and the church in Germany prevails.
Thank you so much for raising a discussion about women ordination in Australia.
I believe the LCA is facing a multitude of problems, Woman’s ordination is just one of them.
Have you ever read the Lutheran publication,
"How are the Mighty Fallen?"
It documents the sad apostasy of the Lutheran church in Australia beginning with the formation of the LCA in 1966 based upon the unscriptural foundation of the do called "theses of agreement".
In fact, Scripture teaches:
The Doctrine of Church Fellowship.
It was officially held in the Lutheran church Missouri Synod until 1945 and by the old ELCA / ELSA in Australia until 1966.
It appears in
The Brief Statement of 1932 and wax taught in Australia by Dr TH Nickel and in USA by Dr Walther and Dr Franz Pieper.
The doctrine of church fellowship is still the bedrock principle of the confessional Lutheran LCR churches in the USA and of the independent ELCR confessional Lutheran churches in Australia.
It is taught in such passages as
Jeremiah 15:19; Jeremiah 23:28; Romans 16:17-18; 1 Corinthians 1:10.
In Australia there was a major convention in the South Australian town of Eudunda in 1902 regarding this doctrine. The previous year, Missouri Synod Dr AL Graebner had proposed a thoroughly scriptural outline be discussed and an essay written. To that end Graebner drew up a set of guidelines in 1901.
Following this, Dr TH Nickel wrote and presented his famous essay on the doctrine of church fellowship in 1902.
It continued to be held by the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Australia) until sadly in 1966 it apostasised from the historic faith.
The liberals that were undermining the Christian faith knew that they had to get the church to compromise in this doctrine. And from there the decay and steady slide into open departure from the Word has been relentless ever since.
The LCA has taken steps to align itself ever more closely with liberalism and unbelief and even with the Roman Catholic religion and the pagan and unscientific belief in evolution. So it comes as no surprise that the unbelievers within are pushing for ordination of women, contrary to the command of Christ (1 Corinthians 14:37)
@@mathete9968 do you live in Australia? If so how which Lutheran churches have you visited?
@@biglap.australia How many Catholic, mormon, reformed, and liberal Lutheran churches do I need to visit to know the doctrine is contrary to Scripture?
I do live in Australia.
I was born overseas and was raised as a confessional Lutheran. When my parents came to Australia they initially attended the LCA but were always utterly disgusted with the wishy washy attitude to doctrine and Scripture. Early in my adulthood, my parents initially attended a WELS church, but as soon as they found a sound independent confessional Lutheran church they joined with that.
I myself began my own journey in early adulthood. I could not stomach LCA and was initially drawn to conservative reformed Christianity.
But the more I studied Scripture, especially using the original languages, the more I realised how far the entire visible church (reformed and liberal Lutheran) is from the historic faith.
The great joy for me was to rediscover the historic faith and to embrace the re-expression if it found in the book of Concord. But, in fact, the reformation principle of "Scripture Alone" has been my guiding principle long before understanding the doctrine set forth so clearly by the Lutheran fathers.
In Australia there are a number of independent Bible believing confessional churches in fact. The largest of these is the ELCR which formed immediately after the counter scriptural union of the ELCA with the liberal UELCA in 1966.
And in the USA there exists the LCR and the CLC which separated from Missouri for similar reasons. I have had contact with these three groups and tremendous respect for them.
As for the LCA, there exist two groups. The conservatives which are few and the liberals which are the majority. But I have two things against the conservatives within the LCA:
1) They are disobedient to the Lord. Scripture commands us to
MARK and AVOID those who teach alongside (παρά) the Doctrine we have received (ie the Apostolic Doctrine, Romans 16:17, 18, See also:
Acts 2:42, Jude 1:3; Ephesians 2:20).
We cannot MARK and AVOID whilst remaining in a church that tolerates false doctrine alongside truth. Even the reformed get that much. And the Koine Greek is strikingly clear. The use of the preposition παρά in Romans 16:17, from which we get the word "parallel", makes it abundantly clear that it is error taught in tandemn with truth that is so contrary to the command of God. We are not called to protest from within. But we are commanded to:
MARK and AVOID.
And Paul warns:
If anyone think himself to be a prophet,
or spiritual, LET HIM ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT THE THINGS THAT I WRITE
UNTO YOU ARE THE
COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.
(1 Corinthians 14:37)
So to stay within a liberal Lutheran church is to be living in disobedience to the Lord.
2) We read such wonderful words in the Book of Concord. I saw Pastor Wolfmuller selling the latest edition complete with conservative commentary notes.
How they extol the Lutherans of the past who did not hold their peace but fearlessly confessed he truth and were willing to lose all to follow God's Word.
But the dead lutherans of the past have done their duty. It is to the living Lutherans of today that the duty has fallen to carry the same confession .
Why is it that a cult of veneration has developed in the Lutheran Chur he whereby we praise the brave Lutherans of the past but then go in to do the very opposi5of then in the present !?
These forerunners confronted error and confessed the truth. Thy were CONFESSIONAL LUTHERANS. And they SEPARATED from error. They separated from the church of the Antichrist (Rome). They separated from Majorism, they separated from the Zwinglians, they separated from the crypto Calvinists.
They did not love separation of course and they strove mightility for a UNITY based upon Scripture Alone. But where that was not possible, the fault was not on their side . And that duty has fallen to the Lutherans today. Whosoever would compromise had fallen into the camp of Zwingli and Melanchthon. They have disobeyed their Lord and departed already from the faith. So it's time to take a stand.
The question in this video is absurd in fact, "whether there are enough confessional Lutherans to come out and firm a new church". Even if there is just one true believer, the duty is to come out of the false teaching church
(2 Corinthians 6:17; Revelation 18:4; Jeremiah 15:19).
In 1966, pastor Frederick Kleing was already 66. He had left the ministry 20 years earlier when the ELCA was still a conservative church. And so he was shocked when he re-entered the ministry around 1965, because he saw how far liberalism had crept even into that formerly conservative body (The former ELCA). And he determined to have no part in such denial of the Word.
But Pastor Kleinig openly stated that he did not care about losing his pension or prestige. He stated he was prepared to work with a pickaxe if it meant confessing the truth and standing against error. And he refused to be part of that unscriptural UNION which led to the creation of the LCA, founded on departure from the Word. We can respect such an example of faith.
But still, in every instance, our allegiance must be to God and his Word:
"A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye HEAR
IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER
He shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, WHICH WILL NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET, SHALL BE DESTROYED from among the people." (Acts 3:22, 23)
He that hears you hears Me; and he
that despises you despises Me; and he
that despises Me despises Him that
sent Me. (Luke 10:16)
We had a pastor that introduced the “unified service” where Sunday school would be after the sermon and before the benediction. He thought that would get the adults into Sunday school. It backfired and a group left the church.
Here in New Zealand have the same problem with it. We're sort of attached to Australia. I suspended my membership when my local congregation voted to support the heresy of women pastors. I was in Australia and lucky to met a congregation that was very conservative. Sadly a small church mostly old people. But I met a very nice pastor. He told me about your visit, sadly I couldn't make it
I can't stress enough the importance of learning how to read the Bible in context. I was raised Byzantine Catholic, then went to Assembly of God & nondenominational charismatic churches, and we were not taught properly, taking verses way out of context. It led to so much error, and one was actual heresy (that Jesus laid aside his divinity while on earth - in a nondenominational church). It took us years to unlearn it all and through our journey are now confessional Lutheran, Praise God! And we will continue to learn the rest of our lives! I'm just really concerned that if someone goes to an unbiblical church, error & deception will creep into their theology possibly leading to apostasy so learning to read the Bible correctly is extremely important so it will help them choose the right church & recognize error when they hear it. Our past church experience was very painful but so grateful God led us out of false doctrine!
It’s interesting that the so-called “Gnostic gospels”, like the “Gospel of Thomas” are just collections of sayings, supposedly of Jesus. They don’t have the historical narrative of the true Gospels. These “charismatic churches” are basically Gnostic and deny the existence of absolute, historical truth, looking only for sayings from “ enlightened leaders”. They don’t look for or care about context.
I used to go to AOG. Very, very good church. Strong on the word and doctrine. They don't teach (kenotic theology) that Jesus laid aside his divinity. You are wrong. Been in the movement my whole life. AOG is virtually Baptist with tongues. Very conservative orthodox views. Instead, they affirm the doctrine of the Incarnation, which holds that Jesus Christ is both fully divine and fully human. You are misrepresenting the AOG.
If you think Lutheranism has it all, you will be very disappointed. Lutheranism has allowed apostacy at a worse level into their churches. I'm currently studying (as a Pentecostal) in a confessional Lutheran context (Masters of Theology) which allows same sex ordinations!! So I find your comments about false doctrine ironic and unfortunate. Even the Pentecostals you now claim are unbiblical, have stood strong against LQBQT+ and that spirit has been kept out of those churches. I actually am convinced that the charismata gifts has something to do with it.
So as much as I love Lutheran theology, it didn't stop their church being ripped apart into schism.
@ntlearning These days, unfortunately, every church needs to be checked out individually in every denomination. I didn't say AOG specifically taught that heresy as part of their doctrine. I said we went to AOG AND nondenominational churches (1 pastor was AGIF - Assemblies of God International who broke off from AOG due to politics). I'm sorry, but you misunderstood me. This was our experience in the churches we attended.
Not all Lutheran synods (denominations) are the same. Check LCMS, AALC, WELS who are confessional, and I'm probably missing a few.
@@susieqds7351 hmmmm it wasn't clear but ok.
I'm associated with a small LCMS group at the moment, and I'm seeing some "cracks" here too.
My post was to infer two things: no church is perfect, and second, for all their warts and pimples, the AOG has not bowed the knee to the LGBQT spirit like Lutheranism did. The irony.
And that's why I don't believe the Lutheran Church is better. We have to stand with our brothers and sisters.
I'm sorry you went through some bad experiences. But try and not be sectarian.
@@ntlearningconfessional Lutheran Churches DO NOT ordain women. The confessional means that they adhere to the Augsburg Confession as a statement of belief. The largest "Lutheran " denomination in the US, the ELCA while giving lip service to the Augsburg Confession and the Bible accept only those parts they agree with. They not only ordain women, they ordained a lesbian as bishop.
As someone said LCMS, WELS and AALC are confessional. WELS is in pulpit and honor fellowship with ELS so I would add them. But remember that this is at a synod level. There are deviant congregations.
There are also non theological differences. For instance I know a WELS congregation that has early service traditional services with organ music and the pastors in vestments and late service with a ( mediocre) praise band and the pastors wearing suits. Same sermon, mostly the same liturgy. The congregation dresses very casual. Another WELS congregation streams its services and they are all traditional. The elders usually wear suits and most of the rest of the congregation dresses nicely. ( no shorts, no t shirts etc.)
Thank you both for this podcast. My daughter is 17 & hasn't been back to church in a year. I keep praying, going, & asking her to go with me.
When I was 15, I rebelled...when I didn't go to church on Sunday, I was very bored for the rest of the week; no T.V., no radio, no C.D.'s, no secular books, etc. It sounds strict, but I've since thanked my mom dozens of times 🤷♀️
My daughter is almost 19 and hasn't been to church in 6 months. Our wonderful young children are being dragged away to the world. I hope she makes it back to God's world.
I am a life long LCMS member. Lutheran church membership goes back to Germany on my dad's side. When I saw social justice stuff on the national site, I thought about leaving since it is unbiblical. I would leave in a minute if the LCMS does something like ordain women.
To where would you go? As a distraught Episcopalian, the fact we are over-run by women usurping that role, contrary to God's word. We have more problems on top of that, famously. So, to where???
I'd switch to Wisconsin synod.
@@dnzswithwombatsPastor Rudolph Kurz wrote a book called "Feminism and the Church" (Omni Publications, 1991).
In his book, Kurz documented with evidence the deliberate infiltration and attack made upon the church and the family. He showed that the Frankist / Freemason / Illuminati control of global media and universities (read also seminaries) is very deliberate.
It should come as no surprise something so obviously wrong and umbilical as "women's ordination" should be pushed in the church. This is not by God but rather a subterfuge designed to undermine and destroy the church.
Indeed, one of my contacts , a former lodge member, confirmed the deliberate targeting of Christian churches. And many of their false prophets exist inside the church as wolves in sheep's clothing.
But the solution is rather simple, return to Scripture Alone. Obey Christ and expel false teachers. Leave churches that will not follow Christ and condemn them openly..
Jeremiah 23:28..
John 8:31
@@dnzswithwombats To Jesus. I've quit calling myself a Lutheran. I'm just a Christian now. Where did I go? to my closet to pray.
@@br.m We need a faithful church!
That discussion about the comparison between the 2 prayers versus the 3 prayers Stephen and Jesus prayed at the end of their lives was super powerful. Gave me chills, and I cried trying convey it to my family. Great stuff.
LCA pastor, sorry I wasn’t able to join the conference, I really appreciated the personal video message.
Regarding Sunday Adult instruction, this is an impossibility for the majority of pastors because they are preaching in 2 or 3 locations on a Sunday and it is only set to increase with the decrease in membership.
I absolutely love the bible studies at my WELS church.
You're blessed to have that gift. I'm encouraged to hear solid Bible studies are still available in some places.
Me too! WELS does have it's own problems as well, but my pastors seem to be completely faithful to the Scripture and the historical confession. After leaving evangelicalism which trampled the Word under its feet and gave me Spiritual PTSD, God blessed me with my current pastors. At the time all the LCMS churches in my area were part of Willow Creek Assoc for access to their material. I steered clear of them because of this.
@@benluklzy Psalm 27:13 sums up my situation.
@@benluklzy How faithful to scripture? As faithful as we Christians? Do your current pastors think that Mary is the mother of Jesus?
You might have to look outside Australia for enough church. We in Canada are facing the same questions
LCMS has already broken fellowship with the Japan church over the women’s ordination issue, right? Maybe it is time for it to align with some of the small confessional groups in the USA, at least. Or come up with a quasi pastoral deacon/deaconess position.
Watch several of the videos and everyone seems to put doen the other two Lutheran Synods. Still cannot believe Lutherans are so divided.
If we dont feed on the Word of God how will we grow as Christians? So important.
The point of adult catechesis makes me think of the culture of the Spartans, but instead of being equipped for wars of the flesh, we are equipped for spiritual warfare. To have as many of your people equipped like this, means that you can move as one with less resistance. If this oneness is in the Spirit, then it can only be good.
Just for clarification from an LCA member, the proposal is “one church, two practices” and such a model still requires a two third majority since TA 5.11 would still need to be removed.
Changing our doctrine or practices will never make the World love us! We need to cling to the teaching of God's Word and not worry about what the World thinks!
Amen! Do not take the wide path.
Our Pastor teaches Adult Sunday School class before Church service.
I was raised Baptist before changing to Lutheran. I grew up in evangelical Christian schools where the students were Methodist, Nazarene, Baptist, Assembly of God, etc. All our churches had Sunday school and Bible study for all ages. Is this primarily an American experience? My knowledge of theology comes from sermons, Bible studies, youth groups, and chapel time.
I appreciate the comment on laity that are interested in theology. I have taken a deep dive into theology that I never expected, and people are saying I ought to go to seminary. I'm just not sure that I ought to uproot everything I've worked on to become a pastor. I have so many evangelistic opportunities as a layperson.
I have two kids, one confirmed as LCMS, one as ELCA, do the Small Catechisms from the two churches different. They use these in Confirmation classes.
I totally agree that you go to the church that is the most faithful. My LCMS does a lot of nonsense. Women readers, a woman president, the LWML Sunday where the women take over a lot of the service, etc.
My early background is MS - father a pastor. I have attended non denominational churches for a long time - choosing them by holding to a MS doctrine standard as possible. When I attended Valparaiso, there were ‘Deaconesses’. Do these still exist? Did they teach/preach?
The problem for most of the SELK-pastors is that there is hardly any time to have adult sunday school because most pastors have several congregations in several places where they have to drive to celebrate the divine service on sundays.
There are other Lutheran churches in Australia that are confessional.
The Lutheran church in Australia did indeed form a unionist fellowship from two fundamentally different church bodies. The ELCA (ELSA) was formerly a conservative confessional Lutheran body in fellowship with Missouri. And it formerly held to The Doctrine of Church Fellowship taught in passages such as Romans 16:17, 18 and 1 Corinthians 1:10; Jeremiah 15:19; Jeremiah 23:28.
The UELCA, however, was a highly liberal "Lutheran" church body. It had a long history of heterodoxy and liberalism. And the Lutherans of the 1950s and 1960s were sold a lie: Such that somehow forming a forced and artificial "union" between these fundamentally different churches would be a good thing for them. Whatever had become if those faithful confessional Lutherans of the period of the formula of Concord? Those Lutherans understood the necessity on unity of pure doctrine. Those faithful Christians understood the necessity of flushing out the fixes, by insistence not only on staying what is true, but also on condeming what is false.
And they understood that THEY MUST STAND IN THEIR DAY. It 8s no use to praise the dead Lutherans of the past and not follow in their confessional footsteps in the present. The gauntlet has been passed down to us. The living have the solemn and sacred duty of standing upon the Word and defending it againat all. Why sing "And take they our life, good child fame and wife" only to cower in doctrinal compromise wity the agents of Satan working within the visible church today. Jesus warned us that false prophets would emerge. Are we so surprised ? Jude warned us and Peter warned us also that such false teachers would appear (Jude 1:3; 2 Peter 2:1) , why are so many Lutherans so complacent ? Take your stand !
But the outward "unity" in the Australian church if 1966 was an impossibility, in fact.
And thus the "theses of agreement" was utilised in a subterfuge to deceive the lay people into accepting an unscriptural church union.
Many pastors at that time was the danger and warned of the unscriptural nature of this union and consequent departure from the faith. However existing conservative church bodies were given all sorts of assurances, only to find that their church property was forfeit under the union. And this made it very hard for them to leave the new unionistic liberal LCA church.
Several ELCA churches did, however, refuse to join this union, especially in Queensland. And they formed an independent Bible believing and confessional Lutheran church called the Evangelical Lutheran Congregations of the Reformation. (ELCR). And they later called Pastor Frederick Kleing to be their first pastor.
Following this time, a history of the ELCA church leading up to the unscriptural "theses of agreement" was published. This history was called "How are the Mighty Fallen", published by Pastor Gavin Winter. It detailed how far the confessional Lutheran church in Australia had fallen from the truth.
The problems today in the LCA as with all sectarian churches lies in their departure from the Word of the Lord. God calls all Christians to return to Scripture Alone. This is not just a Laurel of the past. The Christian faith must be defended and contended in every age (Jude 1:3).
Lutherans today are all too willing to talk about how the Lutheran fathers of the last stood on Sola Scriptura and how the "old timers" would not budge an inch when they later put together the various Lutheran symbols at the time of the Book of Concord.
Yet the Lutherans of today completely miss the point, that they too MUST TAKE A STAND and COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM (2 Corinthians 6:17; Jeremiah 15:19). (What use is it to refer to the Lutherans of the past while completely missing their duty in the present? Unity in faith and doctrine does not come by compromise wity error. And today's false prophets in the LCA will keep on pushing their agenda until the few confessionals in the LCA are an extinct voice and all faith is dead. Already in the days of the Apostle Paul, he warned about the corruption of the Word of God (2 Corinthians 2:17). Are we so naive as to imagine that things shall be any less dramatic today?
And the Apostle warned us all that it should be no great surprise to us that Satan's ministers are transformed into "ministers of righteousness" (2 Corinthians 11:15). Should we be so shocked that such ministers are found EVERYWHERE throughout the church ? It is not just in the sectarian churches where such ministers are found. If the ministers of Satan plagued the Apostolic church, why should it be a surprise to discover that the ministers of Satan are to be found at the very heart of the LCA and all liberal Lutheran churches?
It is not for nothing that Scripture teaches the Doctrine of Church Fellowship which requires unity in all points of doctrine (1 Corinthians 1:10).
Its time to return to the historic faith. Christ makes it conditional to be a true Christian. We must hold to His Word and His Word ALONE.
IF you continue in My Word,
THEN are you my disciples indeed
(John 8:31)
"Therefore thus saith the LORD,
IF you return, then will I bring you
again, and you shalt stand before
Me.
And IF you take forth the precious
from the vile, you shall be as My
mouth.
Let them return unto you, but
return not you unto them."
(Jeremiah 15:19)
The prophet that hath a dream, let
him tell a dream; and
HE THAT HAS MY WORD, LET HIM
SPEAK MY WORD FAITHFULLY.
What is the chaff to the wheat?
says the LORD.
(Jeremiah 23:28)
You are right about Adult Bible study. It's a great place to ask questions that pertain to our lives. It is important for men to be more involved, you see, children see Mom doing and being involved in a lot of things, but when Dad doesn't participate it speaks volumes, because most men won't do stuff they don't think are important.
Regarding women ordained, I think we shouldn't ordain women, here is why, Pastors sometimes have to excommunicated people, I think as a woman I would have a hard time excommunication. Also if you have new converts from Islam, a woman Pastor might be what makes them walk away. Another reason is the Pastor is to be the representative of Christ and Jesus was a man, God is referred to as He also. I don't want gender neutral ideas entered into the Bible. Women can lead children's Sunday school and women's Bible study. We don't need to take more things away from men. We should encourage men to participate.
After 35 years in an ELCA member, I joined an LCMS church because close to home, got permission from the Pastor to commune and become a member. It sounds like you are saying that I committed two sins by becoming a member and by communing, even though the Pastor granted both. Am I understand this correctly? It sounds like the LCMS is as close to Catholic as you can get.
20:16 It is the progressive tendency of many so-called conservatives. To be Conservative meant you understood institutions-whether that be schools, universities, seminaries, churches, families, neighborhoods, etc.-helped us to live out our values. To be a conservative was to support and value institutions. It wasn’t about a list of issues. To win on every issue but lose the institutions is to win the battle to lose the war.
As someone who is drawn to Lutheranism, I would need to walk out if a woman gets up to preach. Or if I knew beforehand, not go to church when a woman is preaching. There isn't a lot of choice where I live.
"Two doctrines, one practice". Sounds a lot like what Pope Francis is trying to do with the Roman Catholic church and homosexuality.
How can two walk together unless they are agreed?
@@dnzswithwombats yes.
Also sounds like Church of England.
Could do with some confessional Lutheran churches in England.
ELCE is an LCMS sister church.
@@alexanderschneider2400 I think there’s one near Leeds but when I looked on website it had a woman priest. I find this problematic
Friends with the world enmity with God....
One doctrine, two practices will fail. I’ve seen it happen. I’m a convert to the LCMS, and my former church allowed ordination of women in one small area of the country.
Officially, the church does not ordain women, but they also don’t discipline pastors/congregations that do ordain them. Well, the ordination has not stayed in one area but has spread to many other parts of the country and is now firmly entrenched. Signing a document recognizing that is now just a formality recognizing an established fact.
And that is very likely what would happen in Australia.
I'm a bit confused.....suppose someone is attending a non-Lutheran church and is wondering if they can commune. Does the Lord make Communion what it is (His body and blood under the bread and wine) or does man determine what it is? If Christ told us what Communion is, who has the right to change that?
As Pastor Wolfmueller said, go to the closest one (theologically) so I go to a catholic now where they have communion in both kinds (bread and wine). And in every mass. Luther was a Catholic Priest who tried to reform the Church, I go to a Catholic Church that has at least listened to Luther in this regard
So when you have Sunday school 😢class is that instead of socializing? Over coffee? Cause that is vitally important. Nothing worse than the catholic thing that everyone runs out after mass without saying hi
Why not both?
@@andrewpacker2592 yes I had at one point two churches. One for the service....the other one for coffee and chat. Always slipped in after the service which I didn't wanna listen to anyway.
We do both at our church, 15 mins or so of socialization before it starts. Also it's at the same time as school school for the kids.
To us, the most important point here was "you have to go to church somewhere." (Heb. 10:25) So, if your church doctrinely implodes and there is no other geographic alternative, wouldn't a good solution be to gather like-minded Christians together in a home church for the Word and Sacraments? (laity with, perhaps the occasional circuit rider pastor, as opposed to attending another denomination's church)
You need an ordained pastor to do communion.
@@run4cmt in which denominations are you referring to? LCMS?
Tell me the scripture that says that@@run4cmt
I love the fact that the LCMS does not ordain women. Women are equal to men in many aspects, but Jesus called 12 men to disciple with Him. There were many women who followed Him and some would be recognized Saints but…
The advice to go to any church has been on my mind. I can't make sense of it. Is there anything in scripture to suggest going to any church? To not partake of the Lord's Supper?
Nothing comes to mind. I can't think of anything from scripture to support this. Maybe I can find things in scripture to make an argument? What if I am fine with eating meat that was sacrificed to idols? Shouldn't I be able to eat bread from the catholic church or the eastern orthodox church?
It's just meat sacrificed to idols. Scripture said I should eat what is put in front of me? Actually I completely disagree with these pastors. If I go to any church, I might as well eat. Because of what Jesus said about eating whatever is put in front of me, What Paul said about meat sacrificed to idols.
More importantly I disagree about going to any church. Catholics and eastern orthodox are idolaters and I don't even consider them Christian. So I can eat their bread and wine no problem, it is just food sacrificed to idols. The problem is I should never go to their churches because it is pagan idol worship.
I would rather go to a mosque if there is no Lutheran church. If I am wrong, someone convince me with scripture alone. Otherwise I need to fix the Lutheran church and its teaching. Thanks.
Why Bible study class? Pastors are to teach through their sermons as it has always been
Sermons should be at least 30 minutes long to have some content
I don’t quite understand why folks don’t go to adult bible class. We laugh and make comments about life. Learn the Bible. Drink coffee. Eat donuts. It’s fun!
Just remembering that Paul himself recognised female church leaders.
Paul greeting coworkers in Christ and the church in their houses does not equate to female pastorship. Can women speak the good news of the gospel to unbelievers? Yes, the Holy Spirit will use many means to impart the gift of faith! But does this mean they can preach from a pulpit and be a shepherd of a congregation? No! By they very man who you are referencing (Paul), he explicitly denies it in multiple places.
- 1 Timothy 2:12-14
- 1 Timothy 3:12-13
- Titus 1:5-9
- 1 Timothy 3:2
As Pastor Bryan says this is not an issue of women’s ordination, it is a symptom of the main disease infecting the church body. The issue is around the inerrancy and infallibility of the scriptures. The day we start pulling parts out of the holy scriptures and saying ‘this is true, this is not’ or ‘this is not what was meant by that’ despite it being very clear to the contrary is the day we cease being faithful Christians. Women’s ordination is not an issue about women in the church, it is an issue about not believing Jesus who is the Word. ‘For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.’ Hebrews 4:12-13
God bless you brother
@@mikehardie2142 His greetings are to female church leaders, even the early church fathers believed this.
@@StudentDad-mc3puleaders aren't necessarily pastors, but yes there have been women leaders and still are.
It's good to recognise them and how God has worked through them.
There’s a difference between being a leader and being ordained. An ordained clergyman administers the sacraments, a leader does not.
I’m being catechized into the LCMS. I would not be entering a church where women are pastors. Women pastors lead to liberalism. The church I grew up in has decayed over the years so that I cannot go back. It is a liberal women’s social club, not a place to confront and confess one’s sin. Congregationalist btw, sadly a proud tradition taken over by false and weak teachings.
12:30 they must. That's what happened in America to form the AALC. Why wait. It's only gotten worse in 35 years. God would bless them. Mark and avoid. Boom! Like God will abandon you for being faithful to scripture? No.
Dr CFW Walther writes:
'The spirit of the Zwinglian,
Calvinist and ...
UNIONIST CHURCHES is nothing else than the Rationalistic spirit.
[It is] the spirit of doubt and uncertainty, which, like unenlightened and unregenerate Nicodemus, queries before the mystery of the Holy Scriptures:
"How can these things be?"
(John 3:9)
"That passes my comprehension; that is contrary to my reason"
When people of this character make concessions, they give you no assurance of reliability.
THIS IS PLAINLY SHOWN BY THEIR ENTERING INTO UNION WITH PEOPLE WHO TEACH DOCTRINES CONTRARY TO THEIR OWN'
Emphasis added
(Walther, CFW., 1986, Law and Gospel, Concordia Publishing House, St Louis, p. 166)
You guys are so eager to divide the church that you search for difference to avoid unity in Christ.