Time to cut ties with Wizards of the Coast
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- *Oldschoolmtg's recap of events*
• The Aftermath of The A...
*The Kotaku article on the incident*
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*My two previous videos on WotC*
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Hope Wizard of the Coast hoes bankrupt.
I will never buy anything from this company.
The most.. interesting.. Pinkerton story was in relation to the James gang. After the gang had robbed some banks/trains, the bankers complained to the gov't and they sent out a band of Pinkertons. The group of Pinkertons asked around town about them, then went to their family's house and decided to throw explosives in through the windows. Jesse & Frank weren't home. Ended up killing their young child brother and blowing their mom's arm off, then claimed the explosives were just "flares" to scare them out. Basically started a campaign of vengeance from the gang, and put the nail in the coffin of what little support they might've got from the locals.
Being corporate and political legbusters for many decades, that's the kind of stuff they became known for. That WotC would hire them for such a trivial matter says a lot about WotC. It's almost comical.
Just clicked play and did a double take at this comment. I am so freaking ready for the WotC Hires Pinkertons timelines 😂
It was a decision made by Hasbro
*Hasbro Is Run By A Pinker Thug timeline
And yes, I am still completely ready for it.
The missing piece here is that the matter was likely handed off by WotC to their parent company; Hasbro's Director of Security Risk Management, Robin M. Klimek, was a Pinkerton.
how are private armies legal in a civilised country in the first place. Also what is this cyberpunk future we're in right now?
Hiring thugs to threaten people with jail time and steal their stuff because of their own shipping error is just evil.
Yikes
Can't wait for the apologetic press release. Notice the security guy that sent them hasn't been fired.
"Own shipping error". Yeah.
@@anothertarnishedone5960 if he'd stolen them, they have these free Pinkertons called the "police" that Hasboro could have sent. Why didn't they, I wonder
That why they hired evil people to do it. Doesn't get much more evil than Pinkerton.
I thought I was being dramatic for not playing 5e after the ogl nonsense. Now I am starting to feel more and more like that was the right call.
You made the right call then.
dropped WOTC 10 years ago and never looked back. Played some 5e, but it was boring and soulless. I'm glad I don't buy any of their crap anymore. Way better companies and creators out there
Good thing they chose just a few weeks ago to release their 150 million dollar movie. (No, it's.not going "break even" by Hollywood's definition.) I've heard it's good, but I feel even more vindicated by not handing them my cash.
Glad you did Brother.
I agree with the sentiment but you can play 5e and still not give wizards a penny. Save that for the 3rd party publishers
Why on earth would you submit to a private security agent? Fuck that. Call the police on them.
because they're the Pinkertons. That's a free ticket to getting shot.
His first mistake was answering his front door.
They couldn't call the police because no laws were broken. Mistakenly shipping out goods ahead of schedule is legally the fault of the shipper, not the receiver.
@@Mastobog i think he means the guy should have called the cops on the Pinkertons who were threatening and harassing him. Probably what I would have done.
Hopefully the police do their job and investigate Pinkerton agents and Hasbro/WoTC for possible criminal wrong doing (trespassing, uttering threats, etc.). Also hope the TH-camr sues WoTC for harassment and return of his property.
Keep in mind this happened mere weeks after another accidental leak: that of Commander Dante's new miniature for Warhammer 40k. A guy ordered the character thinking it was the old model, but they accidentally sent a ready prototype of the new model, and of course the guy posted about it.
Games Workshop's reaction couldn't be further from Hasbro's: they recognized it was their mistake the leak happened at all and announced the new model weeks in advance, confirming it was arriving and making everyone excited from the next releases, and let the guy keep the model (as far as I know) without sending death threats or paramilitary union busters.
You know it's bad when the company known for a game about a horrifyingly brutal theocratic dictatorship is the good guy.
Yeah that was a deft way to handle the situation. Anything but corporate thugs is a start.
So basically GW is the Imperium of Man, and the Pinkertons are the heretics they won't work with?
Games Workshop is also known for their frankly draconian stance against any and all fan-made content involving their IPs. Which says even MORE about WotC.
This is 100% the final straw for me. I won't buy or support any WOTC product at this point.
The hubris that they did digging themselves deeper into who they really are.
Words can be powerful, but only when backed up. Are you certain you can stop all WotC interaction? No more prereleases for MtG, no more sourcebooks for 5e. Are you willing to end your 5e campaign in favor of a different system like pathfinder 2e?
Magic kicked me out and finally I don't want to come back.
same
@@Solrex_the_Sun_King yes… not even a hard choice. Ive already started switching my campaign to Aurora and buying proxies anyways
That’s beyond ridiculous, sending hired thugs after him like that. All they had to do was contact the guy and let him know what happened. I bet he would have been ok with giving them back once he understood the error. He shoulda called the cops on them for threatening, harassing him and trespassing. I really hate bullies…
hey should've at the very LEAST offered him a FULL REFUND or even store credit. What a scum corporation. People really need to take a stand at this point; they have utter contempt for their customers.
@@dstarks360
Apparently they proposed to send him a MoM booster box.
Of course only after threatening him with jail
Not his job to return what he legally bought.
But thuggery is quite popular by many today.
They had a chance by using that moment to hype up the next expansion.
But nope, violence and burning bridges it is. This is no longer "red flag" but a "writing on the wall".
theres places in the coal belt where had those pinkertons come to town they would probably get run off by a not so small group of people theres alot of bad blood there and for good reason
Just want to point out that this "security risk" most likely didn't get "managed" by WotC, but handed over to Hasbro, whose Director Security Risk Management, Robin M. Klimek, used to be a Pinkerton (and at heart undoubtedly still is). Doesn't really absolve WotC of not having handled the issue by politely reaching out with an offer of some other merchandise in exchange. Unless Hasbro policy doesn't allow them leeway on this. Either way my point here is that the rot affects all of Hasbro (Transformers 😢).
And I'm a bit surprised you didn't mention their long history of (mass) murder.
Well that’s good to know!
Hasbro did mass murder? Care to explain?
He's talking about the Pinkertons, who hasbro hired to intimidate a youtuber
Interestingly WOTC reached out afterwards saying they would pay him back or give him other cards. Still it’s a crazy story
@@westonbradshaw2192 They should be paying damages for the intimidation, too.
Still can’t believe that they send damn Pinkertons to this guy home. Like, this is insane right?
Absolutely bonkers. Especially since I thought the Pinkertons were outlawed and I don't think I'm alone on this. They were so bad that there is a law named after them, the Anti-Pinkerton Act of 1893, but that just limits them to not being hired by the government. I also knew they were known for union busting in the mid 20th century hired by corporations and thought that caused them to be outlawed there too. But I can't find that, so I guess I was wrong.
@@_mawburn the government has never honoured that law, because governments really love private mercenaries when they can afford to buy them (now called Military Contractors). Pinkertons were behind several outright battles between corporate owners and striking workers (machine guns, dropped bombs etc.) nowadays they still do union busting but less obvious: in 2020 they were working for Amazon to spy on union organisers in the warehouses
It was completely inappropriate and possibly illegal depending on state law regarding intimidation and fraudulent representations.
i legitimately wonder if WOtC will end up sicking the pinkerton's on people who criticize them as well. and label the criticism as defamation
considering they're currently fucking drunk with power right now... well in the mean time, i'm gonna find out how the fuck to make a proxy server as a fail safe, so i don't get fucked over by wizards of the coast.
@@_mawburn Just show you how corrupted they are.
Good video, WotC should know better than threatening their customers with jailtime over magic cards, sheesh.
This is the kind of thing scammers do to people when they threaten them to do something they will regret later.
They didn't threaten them with jail time. They hired armed thugs. By hiring the Pinkertons, they threatened their customers life.
@@Andernol It was a shakedown, pure and simple. WOTC are no better than loan sharks or other petty criminals who run "protection" rackets.
Moreover, they threatened him because of THEIR fck up with delivery.
I can understand WotC thinking the cards might be stolen. They had no way of knowing the guy ordered a legit set and got sent the wrong ones. However, the appropriate way to deal with it would be to contact him themselves or, if they really thought he stole it, have law enforcement investigate. Then the guy could show his receipt, WotC could realize that he just got the wrong set, and they could probably swap his delivered set for the proper one without fuss or bad PR.
Seriously. Especially since the guy happily uploaded the videos to his youtube channel, who, from what i understand has done early showings of their products before. Isn't that hard to reach out to him and say "Hey, you aren't supposed to have those products yet. How did you get them?" then just request that he privates his videos until the official showings. It's not that hard.
This 110%.
According to WotC they tried to reach him multiple times before handing it to Pinkerton
@@rb98769 Considering how they have been acting lately, I would not trust their word.
@@rb98769 And you believe them? Don't be a gullible fool
"The Pinkerton Incident is a Warning Sign"
No, the nonsense with the OGL back in January was the warning sign, this is the bad behavior we were warned about back in January. Before we were getting some nasty threats that ultimately WotC could not enforce in court. Now we're getting into a very real threat of physical violence. And as I've said several times now regarding this story, Pinkerton is a name I never thought I'd hear outside of a story set in the 1920's. And yet here we are, talking about the original corrupt private security company.
And yes, we need to have a serious discussion about cutting Wizards and Hasbro out of our gaming budgets. No D&D (no 1st party at least,) no Magic the Gathering (time to start searching for alternatives,) and no attending any conventions where MtG or the D&D Adventurers' League have a significant presence. Yes, this seems ridiculously impossible at first glance, and we may still very well fall short, but a party of adventurers don't kill the big bad Sauron knock-off at level one either... And even if we do only cut back instead of cut out, we still cost WotC a good sum of money...
There is a law in the books where if a company sends you a product, whether you paid for it or not or it was a gift or you didn't even know you were getting it, you are allowed by that law to keep it with no obligation to have to return it even if the said company asks for it back. You'd think they, with their lawyers, would know this, which means they ignored the law hoping the bully tactics would work without being questioned.
Throwback to when the children of the pinkertons found out their families were villains in red dead and threw a fit publicly about it.
What amazes me is the amount of people who know that the company hates them, but will continue to support them.
To be fair, EVERY corporate entity ultimately hates its customers; there isn't really any way to "win" in the current climate.
@@christopherb501 Not true. A great many do today (or at least those in control of them), but all do not. Far from accurate.
I know. I'm just flabbergasted how many people are still running 5e games with new content on Roll20, like Strixhaven. It's like nobody got the memo.
yes. because at this point, wotc products have similar effect as drugs. it is an addiction that is very hard to kick off. wotc knows this and that is why they behave like a syndicate
They like the product. The product might be just fine, and they have already paid for it.
Well, this just proves ignoring WotC is not enough. We have to slay the dragon.
go and attack you mean?
For me the final straw was months ago with the OGL debacle. What people don't understand is they've been pulling crap like this for a while. They can correct their errors but it doesn't change the fact they keep doing more of the same. They need to change their name to Red Wizards of Thay to more accurately portray the company.
I would sooner trust the red wizard at this point at least with the red wizard you either have something they want so they're going to take it the only real question there is whether or not you're alive and intact after or you're beneath their attention and so long as you don't do something to irritate them you'll be ignored probably
If you didn't quit Hasbro in 1986, you won't now.
Killing Optimus Prime and most of the other OG Autobots to sell a new generation of toys should have been the first and last straw of greed and corruption.
I'd never watched any OldschoolMTG so I'd never heard his voice, but there is something weirdly fitting about a man with a deep voiced Apalachian drawl talking about having a run-in with the Pinkertons.
As for the actual topic at hand, I'd already pretty much decided that the only 5E/5E adjacent stuff I had any interest in was noteworthy 3rd party stuff. Spelljammer's dismal presentation supported that decision, the OGL fiasco solidified it, and now this whole Pinkerton business just reinforced it.
with the way Americans are going into litigation for about everything, I would imagine the dude will totally sue them. And he should
Boycott WOTC. Do not buy any additional products from them. If you play D&D and you like it, play with the materials you have already purchased or change game companies. DO NOT support any more new 5th edition releases or future editions. Unsubscribe to online WOTC products and never play their digital table top. Let's force WOTC into bankruptcy and for HASBRO to have to sell the game so we start over with a honest and responsible company.
I'm buying new 5e content, but exclusively 3rd party going forward. I want to support all the publishers that WOTC tried to scam. I have bought 19 3rd party 5e books since the OGL 1.1 drama. I don't need WOTC to get more 5e books.
A lot of the books are also way better. My favorite so far is Tome of Heroes from Kobold Press, it adds 20 races 70 subclasses, 70 spells, and a bunch of other content. Way better than anything from WOTC.
@@indiana47 Wouldn't buying third-party 5e content be indirectly still helping WotC? That third-party needs to get the rights to publish 5e content so a cut of those profits are probably going to WotC. It's why Critical Role had to change the name of the Raven Queen to the "Matron of Ravens" for Legend of Vox Machina, because "The Raven Queen" is owned by WotC.
@@Snowfire6916 No, actually. Under OGL 1.0, 3rd party publishers don't need to give WOTC a single penny. OGL 1.1 would have changed that if it succeeded which is one of the reasons for the backlash.
3rd party publishers just can't use specific names and places that are specific to the Forgotten Realms, which means no Thay wizards or Sword Coast in 3rd party. Artificers are also not in the SRD as the class wasn't in the core rulebooks so 3rd party books can't have artificer subclasses.
DMs Guild has special permission for their 3rd party content to use Forgotten Realms stuff so I think they are the only ones who need to give WOTC some money.
The 5e rules are also now creative commons so it is even more open access now.
So no, 3rd party 5e content does not give any money to WOTC, except for maybe DMs Guild content.
@@indiana47 Ah okay.
@@indiana47 nice needed to see this comment ive been buying third party minis but didnt know where to start with source books
"Games Workshop, no!"
"What?"
"Sorry, force of habit."
And so, the Emperor of Mankind declared the Pinkertons heretics.
Seen this story in several forms elsewhere... and the OP's video on it as well.
By my count, Pinkerton committed four felonies for sure, probably seven... possibly more. Won't try to list them, but I urged the victim(s) to get an attorney and file both civil and criminal complaints. Paying out several million $ in damages, and ending up with multiple personnel of Pinkerton/Wizards/HASBRO at serious risk of prison time might actually get someone's attention.
But I, for one, urge everyone to completely boycott Wizards out of existence and see how far HASBRO can be pushed that same direction. There is no excuse for any company to commit what could be construed as an act of domestic terrorism. They need to be punished as harshly as possible, as quickly as possible or things like this (or worse) will continue happening.
We need names: Whose idea was it to use Pinkerton? Who approved the idea? Who authorized the funding? Who gave them their marching orders? Whether a single person or multiple, they need to be fired, charged, and jailed pending trial.
I am sure Hasbro has much deeper legal pockets, so he is stuck.
@@bradandrews777 And companies with big pockets are often willing to fork out cash just to 'make it go away'. He doesn't have to win in court. All he has to do is keep the media and public pressure churned up.
The MTG side of their customer base has been unhappy for a while. Their recent OGL fiasco on the D&D side gave them a huge black eye they're still cringing over. Yet another major controversy should have them very nervous. A big pile of hush money is not at all out of order.
Magic the Gathering players aren't going to suddenly stop playing. WotC isn't going anywhere.
@@cantbelieveimdoingthis7550 If not for government intervention, bad business practices would have destroyed Chrysler motor Corp. People weren't going to just stop driving cars any more than game players are going to stop playing games. TSR died because of bad practices. WotC isn't immune to consequences. Neither is HASBRO, unless the consumers they're screwing over refuse to act. Be defeatist if you wish. I'll continue to advocate putting both out of business as compensation for crossing way over a very obvious line.
@@paulfelix5849 Chrysler had more and better competitors than Magic The Gathering. If you've gone to a Friday Night Magic event lately, you will have seen how dedicated and enthusiastic the player base is. People spend tons and tons of money on little randomized blister packs of playing cards, month after month, in order to play this game. It's too popular, your boycott is doomed, prepare for disappointment.
To be honest, the first time the employees came out about the poor working conditions and racial issues was a warning sign, and it was years ago. The OGL fiasco and Pinkerton stuff are just the fruits of consumers' labor (or lack of). WotC has shown its true face numerous times, people are just too lazy or too dumb to accept it. Stop playing D&D, there are tons of great RPGs out there. Support passionate indi creators, not souless corporate conglomerates.
you can play even better D&D games these days, just without the logo on top of it. And I'm not just talking about Pathfinder. There is a complete UNIVERSE of excellent game choices out there
@@griselame Not to mention Critical Role is about to release Daggerheart and will probably be using that instead of 5e for Campaign 4.
We can still play DnD, just don't buy anything WoTC makes. Also, I am super stoked for Daggerheart!
people are not lazy or dumb to boycott wotc. our people are too ADDICTED to magic cards. they cant stop playing even if they wanted to. wotc knows this and abuse it to the MAX. the only way to end this is to stop the addiction just like how you would do to stop smoking
Not to mention supporting child ****. There are problems that happen between judges and children at MTG events and WotC is more interested in burying that ala Disney or the Catholic Church than stopping it.
As long time fan of Magic and DnD, it stings to have to cut ties as well. But it is truly a track record I cannot in good conscience support anymore.
My D&D group abandoned 5E during the OGL debacle. We actually moved back to the old TSR version of 2.5 AD&D that we grew up playing and we have been having way more fun with it than any of the power gaming trash that is 5E. We are all done with WotC & this coming from people who have been playing D&D as well as Magic since the 80s & 90's respectively.
THIS RIGHT HERE! There's nothing wrong with the D&D you grew up with! Love the "power gaming trash" line; hilarious!
I cut my teeth on 3.5. Is AD&D worth a spin?
@@axt2 AD&D is not really worth it in this day and age. It has nostalgia value, but there's quite a few consistency problems with the system.
There are competing options available if you don't like WotC, primarily Pathfinder. RPG systems, like all systems DO evolve over time.
@@axt2 I grew up with 2nd Edition but got 3rd Edition/3.5 when I could, and I think 3.5 is much superior to 2nd Edition in most ways. There is some quirky stuff, but certainly in terms of character advancement options, 3.5 is FAR better. I would say if you can get a cheap used 2nd Edition PHB, it wouldn't hurt to take a look, but there's little I can think of about 2nd Edition that I think is better than 3.x.
Why stop playing 5e tho? They aren't making profit off the books you already own, nor the games you play privately? Don't buy anything else in the future for sure, but there's nothing wrong with playing the game you already have
I feel so bad that I gave them money by watching the movie Q_Q... I don't like supporting thugs.
I Don't Support, Those who Bully...
don't worry, it flopped
Very well put. No one ethical should be buying any WotC products or producing content about their 'first party' material. They're a bunch of abusive crooks at heart, it's just obvious to see.
Legit megacorp apocalypse time. Private armies raiding people are back baby!
Not an American. And I swear, for the first time ever, I started to understand the appeal of Americans in their own homes owning guns and defending their property.
This is required viewing. Well done sir.
Thank you!
Who made that call I wonder? Who monitors TH-cam for any unwanted activity and has the Pinkertons on speed dial? Is that a role at WotC?
The head of security used to work for Pinkertons. He knew the right thugs to send round.
Who monitors youtube you ask? Well, I don't know about WotC, but another company with a near-monopolistic stature in their field has hired official IP-Enforcers (my word for the people) to report any activity that the highly paranoid, greedy and lawsuit-loving Workshop that creates games deems ilegal. That combined with corporate-sycophants who seemingly get off of pleasing their uncaring masters makes sure that things are aren't illegal gets the treatment of either Corporate-legal-bullying (Cease and Desists and lawsuit threats) or straight up a visit from old school corporate, government and monopoly loving pieces of shit like the Pinkertons. Now thankfully the number of dollars I have spent since the OGL storm broke has been zero...but now I can say that I will pick games that are as directly im competition with Shitzards of the Coast as possible!
@@MP-uw1qc The Director Security Risk Management at Hasbro, I feel important to note, not just WotC.
That is such a great fucking question.
Unfortunate aspect is that there's still a massive majority of people who will stick by and continue to support them regardless of what happens because they don't care/doesn't effect them directly/not enough time.
All the LFG pattern forums are a good example of this where it's like people are picking a political party and won't budge an inch. Not sure where we got to a point where such a large majority of the reachable player base online are exceptionally anti-choice, either openly discrediting or unwilling to give other companies and publishers a try or willingly want to back bad actors simply because "it's easier".
What sucks is that D&D is soooo important to so many of us, and MtG is so beloved by so many of us. WoTC is a shitty Shepard of some of our favorite things. So that sucks.
@@billdefranza4927 I've always viewed it as a love for Roleplaying. You can love a lore, respect a group of content creators , or be really invested in something but at the end of the day, does it really matter what you're playing as long as you can maintain the respect of the community and have fun doing it.
Huge Warhammer 40k fan, I don't support them financially anymore and prefer to support other studios and content creators. Used to be a massive supporter of D&D but after the past year, I've cut it all out. Does it mean I will never run or play a previous product again? Not if I already own it or can acquire it for free but I won't partake in anything 5e specifically that comes from Wizards specifically (same with Roll20, they're just as bad).
Storytelling for fantasy roleplaying has so many other options and systems, even ruleless variants and I can have just as much fun with them going forward without compromising integrity to support a bad business. It's a shame they decided to sink their own ship but I won't help them try to stay afloat. What we shouldn't do is group everyone at D&D Beyond or Wizards as being the enemy though. There's been several great minds and people who genuinely care and want to see the community thrive but Hasbro and the executives need to go.
Plus the recent success on the movie will definitely attract a lot of new players
@@Hardeleiar
Sadly
Ordwin, I think you nailed it.
I already was boycotting MTG for all the crap they’ve pulled in the past but this is a great final nail. Gents, even if you wanted to keep playing 5E, I encourage you to sail the seven seas if you catch my drift. Or if you like crunchier numbers, go with pathfinder 1E or 2E
Or literally any other system, because there are tons of great ones out there.
@@MechbossBoogie Rapscallion has become a popular one in our group. Highly recommend if you're into pirate games.
Do what you want cuz a pirate is free…
@@knightghaleon I've been running Never Going Home, because cosmic horror set in WWI is absolutely my jam.
@@MechbossBoogie I’m not familiar with that one but it sounds like a cool mixture of ideas. I’ll have to look into it. Is it more of a Call of Cthulhu experience that’s heavy on roleplay or is it more combat focused?
I'm just waiting for them to actually claim this was all a big misunderstanding and a total accident and make some vapid placating speeches about how they are so glad that their loyal customers have helped them to realize the error of their ways and how this is all ultimately a great thing that will help them improve the hobby - TOGETHER!
Just done with this company. Ain't no middling, aggressively bland rpg worth supporting a company this inept and actively harmful.
And I can't wait for them to get roasted and demolished on Twitter! *grabs the popcorn*
@@IaconDawnshire The one time Twitter is any good is when they absolutely tear into companies that deserve it. It's like watching a sinner be tossed into hell where all the demons are waiting to catch them with their teeth!
@@conspiracypanda1200 😂😂😂😂
The Pinkertons are not law enforcement, they have NO POWER that any Private eye doesn't have.
He should have told them that they need to go to the police and then get back to him.
If he has the receipt, then law enforcement can talk to the retailer.
As of right now, the Pinkerton's are guilty of extortion and/or possession of stolen property.
Exactly.
this is just cartoonishly evil
Seems a bit cyberpunk to me, private corporate security strong-arming citizens and then a suit on the phone soothing them with lies and trinkets.
Not even at her most litigious did Lorraine Williams ever send Pinkertons to someone's house.
I like Old School MTG, he seems like a very laid back guy who would want nothing to do with trouble or controversy. I would have sent them packing after taking their pictures and getting their names with instructions for their company to never trespass on my property again, but I'm more open to conflict.
What is the nature of a company??
-Hasbroscape: Torment
People need to realize right away that we're constantly voting with our wallets.
If you keep buying products from a company that does things you don't agree with, you're not only enabling them, you're giving them the green light to go a step further.
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIMS THEY WILL BOYCOTT WOTC BUT STILL BUY PRODUCTS FROM THE LOCAL GAME STORES THEY PATRONIZE
@@AbyssalKnight437 the problem with the vote with your wallet idea is that IF everyone stopped buying magic, magic would no longer exist. It's not the games fault either that it's controlling party is trash. And don't get me wrong even though I've almost completely stopped buying magic over the past few sets I still don't want the game itself to die off
@jakejohnsonmtg3609 it won't disappear, the rights will be sold off to another, hopefully more reasonable company.
And that's why we only play homemade cube draft in my MTG circle. F them truely.
This is an act of corporate war. This corporation, and their top brass should be treated the same way you would treat an enemy on foreign soil. They have no human rights as far as I’m concerned.
Sooo...how does one go about violating the human rights they don't have of a corporate-backed militia? Anyone got some white phosphorus or nuclear missiles in their back pocket? 😅
Thank you Dave! great video and content as usual. Thank you for helping expose these bullies. They do not deserve our money and most importantly our leisure time and engagement in any way. I have not played DND for a while now and this video has helped me understand that I do not need to play it again. "Anytime a corporation tells you their true nature, believe them"
Everyone should play whatever system they enjoy. For myself, I've been growing dissatisfied with 5e for the past few years. The more I have to homebrew a system to make it enjoyable, the less I like the system...and I have had to add considerable homebrew rules to deal with 5e's play balance issues after 7th level or so. We recently switched to Shadowdark and haven't had to homebrew anything. Much better experience for our group. What does this have to do with WotC recent behavior? Nothing and that's actually my point. People spend more time taking about WotC drama than they do about the drama in their own game (whatever game that is) that they are playing. To me, that's a bad sign for any company when the conversation is more about their behavior than how good (or even how bad) the product is. I'm sure a course correction will come from them at some point but I see no reason to wait around for it. Too many other good games to play - Pathfinder, DCC, OSE, Shadowdark, etc, etc etc. I said this months ago at the start of the OGL debacle: It was going to be bad for WotC but good for the gaming community...and it is. The more they keep screwing up, the more players are willing to give other very deserving TTRPG systems a chance and that's good for the gaming community as a whole.
This is such a disturbing story. The guy did nothing wrong and WotC’s response to hire Pinkerton to go after this guy might be considered illegal. It makes me really concerned about supporting this company going forward. So disappointing and it will definitely make me consider sending them my hard earned dollars any more.
This is the type of stuff that wouldn't fly in Hollywood for being too over-the-top and outlandish.
Imagine being a PR-representative and you hear about this... the panic.
If they truly LIED and called it stolen property, they should he sued. He bought it legally and there was no basis for calling it stolen property.
This kind of thing will not stop via boycott *alone*. We need an empowered labor to fight for the interests of workers. Expliotation will only continue as long as ceos and billionaires hold this much profound power over the lives and livings of millions and even billions of people. Of course, its not as simple as I just described, but I do hold hope that we are on the precipice of a reinvigorated labor movement here in the US.
You mean the thing the Pinkertons exist to make sure never happens?
@@autobotstarscream765 Yeah, pretty much.
I had no idea Pinkertons were still around. These are the same people who fought against the working class by busting up unions and outright murdering unionists.
The fact that the hired Pinkerton says it all. My roommate is a hard core mtg fan but he is swearing off new releases after that. Me and my friends switched to world of darkness and so far we don't plan on going back to DnD.
This is why I don't feel bad about proxy-ing all of my magic cards and playing DnD for years without having bought a single product. I love these IPs, but I could care less about the company behind it collapsing.
Here. Here. I refuse to give my money to a company that hates me.
Eat it WotC. I hope the ship sinks swiftly. I've already vowed not spend anymore on their products; this is just another cherry on top
I love how the MTG incident just had NO escalation. Just 0-100 instantly. No cease and desist. No taking down the guy's youtube vid. No sending lawyers. Nope. Straight to ARMED GOONS! And what is even funnier? WOTC freaking doubled down on it!
Absolutely insane to me that WoTC can actually make Games Workshop look like fucking saints.
Sold off my collection and bought the paints I need for my Battletech and Warhammer armies.
Thanks for making that decision as easy as it was WoTC.
The fact is that WotC/Hasbro (whatever is the responsible) saying "sorry" doesn't change a damn, as much as banning the customer from Walmart will not re-virgin all the oil...
Retailers break street dates all the time. If WotC were going to go after anyone then they should have gone after the retailer. At worst they could have black-listed the store or site that sold the cards. Going to a person's home is next level thuggery. I truly feel sorry for this guy and his family. That being said, I am not entirely surprised by these actions. The CCG business model is inherently predatory, and cozies up to the line of being a form of gambling when it comes to cracking open packs of Magic cards for value. The notion that a company that exploits the psychology of children and adults alike for profit escalating things to the level of using hired goons doesn't surprise me. I am so happy that your channel examines all kinds of games from all corners of the hobby. The truly amazing thing about the world to TTRPGs is the fact that it is still possible for an individual or small group of dedicated designers and artists to craft a game that has a spark of brilliance, and see that spark catch fire with the support of the community. It is sad to see a company that used to make things I loved head down this path, but that's just how things go sometimes. It's hard to stay upset for long when I take a look at the creative landscape outside of WotC, and see how vast and bountiful it really is.
Man, what Gygax and Arneson would say if they knew the state DnD is now...
I thought they were on the right track but this is the final straw for me at least. I'm not going to buy their products anymore for a long time l including hasbro stuff.
I think the only way they could possibly look good in my eyes is if they fire one or more senior execs at WotC. But that’s very unlikely.
This was most likely handled through Hasbro's department of "security risk management", whose director used to work at Pinkerton, so, yeah, no more Hasbro products, period.
Just a heads up- don’t ever answer the door unless you are expecting company. Don’t talk unless a judge forces you.
Funny that this comes out today. I was looking to get back into table top gaming after like 30 years away from it. I was between D&D and Pathfinder. This made the choice easy!
While Pathfinder is fine; there are SO many other TTRPG's to choose from as well - ! You could even go "old school"; the original versions of D&D are not hard to find!
It's interesting to me that when Games Workshop accidentally shipped a product that hadn't been released yet they just went "A new Dante figure is coming out! We meant to announce this later but cat's out of the bag!" and when Wizards of the Coast do something similar they ... hire the Pinkertons.
They are made of what the players are supposed to be fighting in the books. Thanks for the video and spelling out exactly what they are all about.
Good Job!!!!
Thank you for your words
I've only occasionally watched videos about the D&D debacle. But now my video suggestions are full of videos about WotC sending thugs to Magic players. And I don't even live in the US.
Sounds like a PR disaster to me.
Your conclusion is correct, but part of your messaging is not. Incorrectly shipped product is still considered stolen and illegally obtained, and there is an onus upon the buyer to check that they receive the explicit product they ordered.
Any company willing to hire Pinkerton agents, though? They are your enemy. They are not people to be reasoned with, they are people to oust, decry, and eliminate if possible.
Agreed. Can pretty much guarantee the youtuber was looking for an official reaction - this just ended up being a lot scarier then anticipated.
And clearly that does not make wotc in the right, their actions are scary and frankly stupid.
Not an rpg fan but played magic for the past 8 years. After watching hasbros just gut the game I jumped shipped over to flesh and blood and have really enjoyed how lss has treated the players base and fans. Been really enjoying it for the last 3months.
Rogues of the Coast striking again I see.
Is it Barbarians of the Coast once they stop being stealthy and start sending Pinkertons in force? 🤔
Im moving all the 5e campaign books i have to Daggerheart and selling the 5e core rulebooks as soon as Daggerheart comes out.
I had already pulled out entirely, but this definitely gives me more reason to feel good about that decision and continue promoting and supporting alternative products whenever possible.
You know what is sad? I haven't bought anything from WoTC since they released D&D 3e... So, I can not stop buying from them I already cut all my ties with them decades ago!
This has happened twice in my lifetime with D&D. The power of this thing seems to bring out the evil in company employees. It's as if.... there's a curse at work here?
Oh man, this gift just keeps on giving. I really should stock up on popcorn to see this to the end.
Next up: death squad shooting up Chaosium inc's office.
cancelling the D&D Essentials Kit I bought as a gift for a friend's son. Walmart was fine with the return - when asked, I wrote "because the manufacturer is Lawful Evil and must be defeated"
They want to do what many Music producers already do to their creators...
The individual calls these thugs "Lawmen." They aren't. This is a PRIVATE company, PRIVATE thugs, hired to harass a PRIVATE consumer. They have no ability to arrest anyone. If they do, it is kidnapping, and that is a crime.
He NEEDS to go to court. If not for his own sake, then for the sake of the entire community.
TIL Pinkertons, still exist. I learned about them from Read Dead Redemption
Stopped supporting WotC when they ended 3rd edition. Never looked back. The only thing worse than Wizards is their simp apologists.
We should start a kickstart or something for a criminal lawsuit against them for harassment & intimidation.
I think the last straw...that was several straws ago. The OGL thing should have immediately woken people up to what exactly they want, and no corporation is above using anything (that they can get away with) to make sure they profit. Look at corporate abuse in Africa alone. Hired guns. So while thats great you've now seen the light, the signs were already there and I think people are too quick to forgive and forget.
“Security” is NOT law enforcement and without a WARRANT they can’t confiscate doodly. Id get a lawyer and sue their asses for emotional distress and criminal trespass.
Back during the OGL scandal, I decided to stop buying 5e books for the time being. I figured once WOTC shaped up and it right, I could return to the game I've loved since the 80s. But since then, it's just been one boneheaded move after another with them. At this point, my break from D&D is becoming permanent. Meanwhile, I've been enjoying Pathfinder 2E, and feel confidant that Pazio isn't going to be siccing union-busting legbreakers on their fanbase.
It’s baffling it took this. Their years of racism, sexism, hypocrisy and increasingly poor quality should’ve done it.
Terrible behavior by WotC!
The best part of this whole issue for me, is that A the cards where already on sale in Walmart's because they are always out a week early. But no one fights Walmart on their release dates, they do it with Magic Yugio and Pokemon cards. And B, Wizards hired Pinkerton but I think the detectives (who have a history of violating rights and being to aggressive), just decided to take the cards, instead of inquire about how he got them. Because him having the cards wasn't a big deal its how he got them is the overall issue with Wizards. So I don't know anymore.
But Wizards isn't the first company to do this, the parent company for Borderlands 3 (2k games I believe), did the same thing to a TH-camr who had photos of early test footage he took from a private stream. That was a few years ago. But at the end of the day, I can't believe Wizard's did this, its so dumb. Im sure an email inquiring about how he got the cards would have been better and safer for the company.
Walmart vs. Pinkerton: The Ultimate Battle
It would be interesting if they tried to pull this stunt on some guy who has his own private arsenal. I suspect a shoot out because wizards sent hired thugs to steal magic cards that were legally obtained would definitely make the news.
And that's why the Pinkertons don't bother Walmart.
DnD has lost its heart (and my support in the process) a long time ago. And I used to buy every single thing they produced back in 3.5.
Creators who depend on WoTC for their income find it easy to attack a license change which threatens their income. I guess we'll see how they react to (litterally) thuggish behaviour that threatens others. This is why creators, and consumers/hobbyists too, should diversify instead of letting themselves become dependent on one company or product line.
Fun fact they still advertize that they will kill any union organizer on their website. so it is not an exaggeration to say that WOTC hired contract killers over a shipping snafu.
I hope he sues WOTC/Hasbro into nest week. This was inappropriate, and illegal.
I had no idea the Pinkertons were still a thing, that’s actually absurd
Gosh, remember when we all thought EA and Games Workshop were the evil empires. But sending the corporate equivalent of the gestapo to a man's house over a shipping error...
GW was in a similar situation and their response was tame in comparison!
Apparently the Pinkertons are heretics that the Emperor has no place for in the Imperial forces!
It's been difficult to become a former fan of MtG and DnD, but that's how it goes. I've just discovered you channel and I'm shocked by how many amazing new games there are. Also, if I think about it, I can't really say that DnD has been more fun than other systems I've played, like Ars Magica (highly recommend!), Shadowrun, or Cthulhu.
When we think they can't get any worse, they somehow figure out a way to surprise us lol
1. Pinkerton Security is not law enforcement and does not have law enforcement authority.
2. There is plenty of case law that states if something is shipped to you by US Post and you take possession, the item is yours. Even if the item was sent by mistake by the shipping entity.
Well I've pretty much stopped buying 5E material since the great OGL debacle of '23, and I feel their recent decisions have vindicated my choice to stop buying from them. I'm currently learning Pathfinder but I'm also looking at other games, including Third Horizon and Shadowrun (the system is... something, but the setting is brilliant). I might back the recently announced Gloomhaven RPG since it looks interesting, though I'm going to wait until I see a slightly more deeper look at the mechanics.
so, while i agree with literally everything, i have a theory the main reason they used such extreme measures was that they assumed that he had acquired the aftermath cards from an inside employee of WoTC. That is why after the pinkertons found out it was a shipping error they just kinda stopped and confiscated the cards.