5 reasons why you should stop playing WotC’s D&D
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The sixth edition is overdue, and even a fallback on the original edition & rewriting it for each player group IS something any DM should be capable of. WotC violated the truth that TSR made their entire content public domain on day of bankruptcy.
I will never forget when I was an Uber driver and I was driving this girl to her DND session and I was talking to her about the games I play. I said that i play other ttrpgs besides dnd 5e, and she was like, "So like, other worlds? like homebrew?" and we got to her destination before I could explain that there were more games than DND 5e. I think about that girl from time to time. I hope she learned about how big the world of TTRPG's really is.
I'm thrilled that a new generation is having fun with table top RPGs. After she finishes a few campaigns I'm sure she'll be like the rest of us at that age and look for something new and different to add more to the roleplaying experience.
It is painful to think most people unironically believe roleplaying game is synonymous with D+D 🙄
Every industry(comics, VG, etc) across the board goes through this. Find your niche, carve out your place, and enjoy your game
I think I just took psychic damage from this... It makes my skin crawl to think how many people don't know there are systems besides 5e...
@@TheMorrigan31 If you run in circles only runnin DnD 5th, you never know. It's like here in the South, people will swear by Bologna steak til they taste the real thing
Reason #6: The Leaks of OGL 1.1 which are draconian, anti-competition tactics that would kill third party publishing and legitimately in the leaked form basically kills Kickstarter projects.
Indeed. I’ll wait for the official release of the “o”gl before making any tirades against it, but the leak is legit I think, and it’s absolutely atrocious.
The only valid reason not to play that I 100% agree with.
Reason #7: It’s just flat-out difficult.
Yeah this seems down right prophetic in post OGL gate world. Thats why we watch Dave right? Clearly got a finger on the pulse of our hobby...
Reason #7 (2.0): WotC Sends Pinkerton thugs to bully independent content creators.
Many of these problems have always plagued D&D. I started out with 1e, and my group used the three main core books. DMG, Players Handbook, and Monster Manual. We had SO MUCH fun playing with those books, then people started buying all the add-ons and it ruined the game. Not everyone was willing to buy endless books, and even fewer wanted to read them all. The group fell apart basically because the extra books were introduced. A few of us stuck together and moved to 2e, and the book bloat was literally insane.
You get bonus points for suggesting Old-School Essentials twice, it is my favorite RPG by far and as I imagined D&D was supposed to be. But your general point of trying other RPGs is also great and I think people should be more open minded. Great video!
And some Hero Points for mentioning ICRPG twice too 😜
A necessary video in a hobby where the culture, media and people are extremely focused on a single game. We don't need for DnD to become more popular, but for RPG in general, in all their variety and possibilities.
Agreed.
I don't know getting more popular in recent years has brought way too much unwanted attention to the hobby.
@@foff3804 what kind of attention?
@@foff3804 unwanted for who? 🤔
@@foff3804 More attention is good though? Sounds like you are gatekeeping
The point of "Trusting the players (and the DM)" by a given rule set and it's approach to gaming is so key!
My way of looking at the game,the DM is as much a player as the rest of the group.
If you don't have a DM you don't have a world to play in, but if you don't have players for that world, it doesn't matter if you're a DM because nobody can see or live in that world.
TTRPGS are meant to be played as a group, so having a nice relationship with the entire table is always important.
Don't know about anyone else, but when I saw WOTC movement to remove alignment, it made me realize they don't trust us to draw our own conclusions. They seem to focus on raking in new players. But what if they became veterans? What after that
@@matteobaelstromos4260 I saw the same thing with Concentration rules. Number of magic items rules via attunement, etc.
They purposely put in a lot of rules to limit the game.
On the other hand, they then added in advantage and disadvantage. These are equivalent bonuses of +5 and -5 respectively. The game never gave such high bonuses / penalties, but 5E hands them out like candy. Plus they added in things like avoiding the cover penalty. I have not played in a game with a ranged Ranger PC that did not have Sharpshooter. Misty Step is a teleport spell at level 2. WT? One used to have to wait until level 4 with Dimension Door.
The game just feels so sanitized, but at the same time so easy to abuse. It's as if they took out all of the problem children of earlier versions, but added in a whole new bunch of them.
This often applies to videogames as well. I don't play ttrpgs or board games (still like them a lot), but I play a lot of indie video games and I'm really intested in video game design.
I can tell that many original games were made with this model. Creator who trusts players will allow them to use different strategies, not only ones that creator likes :)
Developers of Darks Souls series said that it's perfectly fine to exploit their game and cheese enemies
Developers of Eve Online went so far they let players build actual economical strustures in their mmorpg (one of few mmorpgs that are trurly giving freedom)
Minecraft originally (pre 1.8) was developed as boring game where you have to do what you want to make it interesting
Zelda BotW and ToK are made with this midset (First time I say sth good about Nintendo)
Celeste is linear platformer where you can change many settings to make it easier (with note that game isn't meant to be played this way for fully physically healthy players), but still we have the opportunity
Remember than not everyone in video games is searching for freedom (some peaple are for competiton, some for cooperation), sometimes it's just not necessary. I just want to point that it can lead to many good results here as well :)
I loved Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd edition, the players handbook with the man on a horse on the cover....the art and lore from a variety of worlds like Krynn, Oerth, Faerun, as well as the novels that came out under that umbrella....still bring back fond memories of my childhood in the 90s......
I used to love going to the D&D section of a bookstore....now, it resembles a mini-toy store with all kinds of cheap made in china plastic crap and lots of books with bland artwork.....
Man on the horse cover 2e was my very first RPG book. Fond memories.
And yes, the amount of garbage toys and accessories that Hasbro fills the shelves with is disappointing. I guess they're trying to widen their net and catch people who want to be a part of the RPG craze but who will never actually play.
I miss the TSR days. I still have nearly the full collection of the original hardcovers and many of the 2e books as well. Most of my campaigns back in those days were my own crafted worlds and I DMed a kind of AD&D/2e homebrew.
I can bet that a lot of people will blow the dust of the cover of old AD&D books now.
I remember when 3.5 came, I never made the upgrade. Since then, I DM groups from 3.5, 4 and 5th. edition, converted them to the old ways of thac0.
I started with the black book of the barbarian destroying the door.
3.5 makes much more sense from a realism perspective but I played second edition more than I played anything so I see the allure. I prefer first edition over 2nd. But I'm a sucker for Gygax math riddles.
Same here. Not really related to this video, but my biggest disappointment with 3rd edition was the drop in art quality I was so excited to see this brand new thing and they just had very middling cartoonish work and those stupid covers.
*Dave:* "D&D 5e is a pain in the neck to run."
*Me, who will never abandon PF1:* "Ahaha yes it is." /looks around nervously
Pathfinder is so great. I haven't tried 2E. I like how they're leaning hard into Feats but I heard it's not actually that good otherwise
but it is. Really. How do you cope with characters that until the tenth level are nearly unstoppable, then all of a sudden you can either TPK them with no effort or put them against a no challenge after the other? While it has some good ideas, overall 5e sucks really hard
Indeed.
@Marco Della Torre I ran a campaign from 1st to 9th. 4 characters died. 1 died in the final battle.
I don't use the CR system
Yeah I have no idea what he is talking about with difficulty of running 5E, it's whole shtick is being pretty bare bones rules.
I started in the tabletop hobby through a local D&D event because it was the only one I'd heard of and knew about. After a couple of years, we decided to check out Call of Cthulhu and instantly fell in love.
After about 3 years of D&D, we finally had enough and branched out to other games and I've since sold all of my 5e books and used the money to add more awesome games to my collection.
You make a LOT of valid points, particularly that it is hard to run and balance at higher levels because players become demigods once you hit level 13 or so, and it just gets worse from there. Great video as always! We'll see you in the new year, Dave
I’m glad you got out of the 5e ecosystem and found something awesome.
@Dave Thaumavore RPG Reviews I actually started getting out of 5e because of Dicebreaker who had a video of 10 RPGs that aren't D&D, in which you had reviews of most of the games including Symbaroum, Blades In the Dark, and Ryuutama.
I'd actually love to see you cover more Modiphius games in the future, but specifically Fallout 2d20 as I'm a big fan of the game
@@alimargaming8722 I’ll take a look at Fallout.
I ran old school CoC with a core book for years, the system is that simple, Irum ot of systems but d00 is my fall back
@@alimargaming8722 I like Acthung Cthulu and Conan both by Modiphius.
I agree 100%. I went from playing 5E (It's okay, just D&D on easy mode), to DMing 5E this summer. I now hate 5E. Being on the other side of the DM screen showed me all of the flaws in the game; boring combat, power creep, and too many rules which leads to rule lawyering on a scale I have never experienced in 30+ years of gaming. And I won't even get into the player base. I'm moving to OSR and praying there is a home for me there.
I bet you’ll love OSR.
For me it's the same problem, but the opposite solution. DMing it is a pain, because the rules that are there are completely dysfunctional, which is why we are moving to Pathfinder 2E, because the solid ruleset allowes the DM to actually make informed calls. Also the amount of balanced player choices is just refreshing after the disappointing classes in 5E
Hackmaster 5e is basically Advanced Dungeon and Dragons. They come in beautiful hardcovers too. If you look into the history of Kenzer & Company and the Knights of the Dinner Table, it's pretty interesting; they basically opened the door for the OSR.
Tried Forbidden Lands and now it’s hard to go back.
I don't mind DMing low-level campaigns. When you get higher level, though, it's awful.
2nd addition AD&D was the greatest version for me. PathFinder the improvement of 3.5 was great as well. Champions, CyberPunk 2020, and Star Wars D6 are all great games too.
I was a video gamer that picked up D&D just after 3.5 dropped. I had gotten into tabletop when CRPGs were in a bit of a rut (mind you, this was before the Mass Effect series and before indie developers really took off on Steam) and have been in both worlds ever since. I had been watching how Wizards is handling 5E and keeping getting flashbacks to the business practices of Electronic Arts and Ubisoft. For those not familiar with the antics of the video game space... you do not want that. Trust me, you DO NOT want that.
Hi there I'm Derek Ruiz (Elven Tower). I was featured in WotC's book Candlekeep Mysteries. I wrote one of the adventures for that book. I got paid about 1k for the job and it was all fun and dandy. But now looking back, I agree with you. I think I was a tad underpaid but the experience was awesome and I got to exchange emails with some top Gs in WotC, even if it was all about just the job at hand.
Later a freelanced once for Arcadia magazine and they paid a higher rate. When put in perspective, it doesn't make sense that the smaller publisher pays better that the largest shareholder in the market.
Thanks for sharing! Yeah, it's really strange that they don't pay top dollar. Their operating budget is insane compared to everyone else in the "hobby." But I guess we know the answer. At least you had a cool experience!
The problem I have always experienced is I wanna play a TTRPG that isn’t DnD5E, but when you mention TTRPG everyone else wants to play DnD5E because it’s the most well known. It’s even more funny because I actually want to be a GM, but everyone wants the Matt Mercer experience which I am 100% sure is an experience I cannot deliver. I’m hoping 2023 is my year where I get it all running, instead of endless procrastination searching for a system that isn’t 5E.
As a dm myself, that started thanks to Critical Roll I learned VERY quickly that isn't going to happen, and no matter how good of a dm you are, you may never come close. Critical Roll and the other popular streams have "professional players" who can almost run the game without a dm at some points thanks to their interactions with each other. My experience, it's hard to get people to get into character and have meaningful Roll play moments.
My tip for any new dms is to learn your style. What works, and doesn't work for you. Don't imitate what you see, and tmdojt be afraid to try new things. Not every group is for everyone, and that's fine.
5e is the most popular, and common system to find for new players. From a players side of things, it's simple to learn, and easier to teach others to play. That's not a bad thing. It can be used as a tool to meet new people, and form a larger group that's willing to delve into other systems and try new things.
I don't fucking WANT to deliver a Matt Mercer experience. I want to deliver a ME experience. They cannot handle that, they can never play again, because they're never going to find a GM who does things exactly like him. no two are the same
I agree with all of you, and I think a big part of the problem is that Critical Role and similar high-budget shows deliver exactly that; a show. No matter how much is scripted or not, they play for an audience. Do you do the same at your kitchen table with your friends? Ofc not, but people get the idea, that as you mentioned that every TTRPG has to be that epic storytelling experience.
And tbqh, I think playing TTRPGs as a mix of storytelling + videogame is an inferior way of enjoying this hobby. I'm not saying it's wrong per se, you do what you enjoy, but this self-imposed need of GM's to feed their players a "cinematic" story with twists and turns, is not healthy, not for the GM and neither for the players and the expectations it creates.
My main complaint as a DM is the fact that I have to do most of the design work. Nowhere is this more important than what they've done with skills. Basically, the skill system is a few descriptors, followed by "and the DM will set all the Difficulty numbers". I don't WANT to be designing hazards and traps and skill tests. I want a 5E version of 3.5 where skills were detailed and laid out EXACTLY what you could do on a convenient table.
Also, the rules are scattered all over the place throughout the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and several other supplemental materials. If you don't have this stuff memorized, you can easily chew up half of your playtime flipping through books looking for rules.
Organizationally and visually, this version is a MESS.
Having no real guidance just opens up things to generate lots of arguing.
" I want a 5E version of 3.5 where skills were detailed and laid out EXACTLY" Cool. I want the exact opposite of that.
"I don't WANT to be designing hazards and traps and skill tests." Maybe you should consider another hobby or something, bc this is exactly what a DM in a roleplaying game does.
@@nemooh that is the actual fundamental problem with people think DnD is THE ttrpg experience
You don’t necessarily need to play other systems because DnD 5e is “bad”, but it is very likely it just isn’t what a lot of people actually want
@@nemooh I appreciate that you probably liked your own comment, because no one else would, but no. That is NOT exactly what a DM in a roleplaying game does. There are plenty of modules that do this for you. There isn't any one way to play the game, despite your limited intellect.
@@nemooh "Cool. I want the exact opposite of that." Cool. No one cares. You're not important, to be factual, here.
Dave Thaumavore coming in hot with a spicy D&D take! Good points.
Thanks!
I'm beginning to move away from 5E slowly but surely. While I have enjoyed playing games with a small group over discord, and I will credit it for introducing me to TTRPGs, it is still flawed at the end of the day and it's becoming increasingly difficult for any of us not to notice those issues. I'm glad for stumbling across this channel as it's introduced me to a wide range of RPGs and RPG systems. I'm beginning to take the dive into other systems, looking at forged in the dark, or powered by the apocalypse games.
That's actually good and very empowering as a Player (or DM) that you are going into new systems because of it. Truly a lot of good games have been out for a while and could honestly use a bit of love and it'll be good to get other players too hopping on board of there's a GM around that can go:
__"I can run this. And I'll help you along to enjoy it. No problem."__
Currently I know how to run DCC, Basic Fantasy RP, CoC, and even Barbarians of Lemuria since im a very pulp fantasy style GM :) more power to us 🤘
You should look into FantasyCraft is a fantasy system
Been gaming for over 40 years and I left d&d after 4E came out.
I've played over 40 different game systems and all sorts of genres and had loads of fun without playing d&d
I like shadowrun, old school world of darkness, and deadlands. Rifts, little fears, and earthdawn are good as well
5E will always have a special place in my heart because it was the version that was my gateway into the world of TRPGs. It is _very_ beginner friendly, and that is a wonderful strength. But years later and with a lot of experience under my belt, I have actually abandoned it completely to play Pathfinder instead. Brought the guy who introduced me to 5E with me too.
I gave all my 5e stuff away about 4 years ago. My main complaint is that it came up short for rules for adventuring and it wanted player characters to get very powerful very quickly. You can pick up a reprint of D&D Basic/Expert or Rules Cyclopedia and have rules for water travel, rules for creating domains, and more. And B/X is simpler and easier to add and remove rules without breaking. At the other end of the complexity spectrum, Pathfinder character options are way deeper than 5e and the character growth is throttled more like what I would expect from high fantasy literature. (sorry, I love the trope of the neophyte starting from small beginning rising up to become the hero)
Just like you mentioned in your amazing video, my issue with 5e is that it tries to be a lot and have mass appeal, but ends up not doing anything great. It’s not thought out enough to be highly tactical. It’s not rules light enough to be quick and fast. I at first found it strange how I love games like Pathfinder 2e or Blades in the Dark, 2 games that are at the polar opposites. Then I realized it is because both focused on what they are good at.
PS: thank you for helping me introduce to new systems and worlds, I smile at all your new videos
Thanks for watching my channel. And yes, it’s all about focus. That’s what makes a game potentially great.
Hasbro/WotC also take no risks in their content and thus, much like other large corporate brands chained to “tentpole” franchises, they’re a victim of their own success.
Pathfinder 2e and Blades in the Dark are my two favourite TTRPGS. Sometimes we like crunchy combat, sometimes we like fiction-first!
Very well said!
I'm happy to see Adventures in Middle Earth being displayed on this video. It has become my personal 5E guide and not just for Tolkien's world. It was only this year I explained to my group that I will not be running 5E D&D as a DM anymore because I keep running into the same problems time and time again (in fact I now avoid purchasing anything from WotC), but luckily my group enjoyed the Adventures in Middle Earth system so I got good support.
We also enjoy Cyberpunk Red, Alien, Call of Cthulhu, the Red Dwarf roleplaying game, Judge Dredd (the 1980's Gamesworkshop version!) and Conan (2d20 system).
An enlightened group.
I liked what I saw of Lord of the Rings 5e from Free League. Never ran it. TOR 2e is also a fine game.
To bad the middle earth books are Oop i just cant justify 200 for a player guide
If you like Middle Earth 5e, I highly recommend you check out The One Ring roleplaying Game by Free League.
Have you tried FantasyCraft by Crafty Games? ... It's the unknown cousin to 3.5 and Pathfinder first edition
I have never played DnD. But have played many other games...
I feel sorry for those who have never played anything else. They are missing out on a lot.
Agree with you 100%. Whenever a corporate hegemony starts using terms like 'under-monetized" it's time to find new outlets. I was astounded that they were so open about it. It will be interesting to see how WotC plans to strangle third party content creators with a 'new and improved' open gaming license'.
Reeeeeee
"Under-monetized" is laughable for a system that more or less requires 3x $50+ dollar books to play past level 3. I can buy the master edition of ICRPG for under $20, and it's the only book I need to run any genre of game (and it includes 5 full campaign settings in that single book). It hurts me to see people start the hobby with D&D, given the expense and the alternatives...
@@markkreitler519 When a company brazenly tells me they are going to 'monetize' my hobby, it's time to find a new hobby. This is similar for other hobbies; need the newest gadget or the latest upgrade. We're just conduits for the flow of money. I'll stick to my previous editions of D&D and do without the fancy video 'chrome'.
@@sergeantstime Agreed. That's why I bailed on D&D in the 90s. I switched over to Hero, where I could buy 1 book and run and campaign in any genre I wanted. But I appreciate that no one system fits everyone. That's why, when my son got interested in the hobby, I recommended Basic Fantasy -- it's a great intro to the hobby for $5.00 -- no "rpg chrome" getting in the way of the fun.
@@markkreitler519 I'll have to look up Hero. Sounds like it might be a good replacement for D&D.
Makes me proud of our hobby. DIY spirit is in the DNA of ttrpgs... as is shown by Your and Ben's channel.. there has never been such a glut of creativity in the indie rpg scene. So many amazing publications and an audience hungry for invovation ...
I stuck with 5e for years because it was all anyone played but then I got the One Ring Second edition because I'm a huge Tolkien nut and when it arrived at my doorstep, I spent hours just pouring over the book admiring it's actual physical beauty, high quality weighty paper and a silk bookmark and such a concise visual style, it felt like pouring over an ancient tome putting together my first oneshot in the system. Haven't been able to go back to D&D since, everything else in the ttrpg sphere is such a labor of love that puts Wizards to shame.
One Ring is a fantastic game that captures the spirit of Middle Earth and makes players feel part of it. A true labor of love.
@@jasonandkrishandy-kraus123 totally, it also being a western fantasy themed system but having such a wonderful and unique atmosphere that perfectly captured Tolkien's books was what made me realize how much I'd been missing out on just playing DND. I'm a pretty big fantasy fan so it makes up most of my RPG bookshelf, but every system still has its own identity and I couldn't part with any of them.
I love The One Ring. But I prefer the 1st edition personally from Cubicle7.
the Middle Earth Roleplaying Game for 5E was a really good (but not perfect) attempt to blend it and 5e together. I ran an online game of that on Fantasy Grounds after the shutdowns in 2020, which we recently just completed. 5e was better supported on FG, was the reason. But given an option I'd play TOR tabletop any day. TOR and Blades in the Dark are my two go-to games now.
@@Frostrazor I never really got the appeal of the 5e stuff tbh, both adventures in middle earth and the new Free League one. Could just get the full thing for about the same cost and have a more authentic experience.
The folks who made The One Ring did amazing work. I recall the Iron Claw Enterprises (ICE) Middle Earth RPG's with great fondness too.
3.5 definitely has a crazy amount of options and can be too crunchy for 5e players. It's good for sure but it's a different flavor of rpg all together
Shadow of the Demon Lord is an underrated system and takes a hammer to the sacred cows of the D&D/PF orthodoxy . It’s by far the most intuitive straight forward base system to grok and run flying by the seats of your pants fantasy rpg. .
More people need to read Shadow of the Demon Lord, especially if they want d20-esque play that's even quicker than base 5E, or if they want to try Warhammer style grimdark fantasy without purchasing licensed material from another IP Shitlord in GW.
I am excited for the Shadow of the Weird Wizard because I love SotDL rules but want neither its lethality nor grimdark and lets-make-this-intentionally-gross elements at my table (and do not have as much time to tweak these things myself).
I switched to Pathfinder 2E earlier this year and so far I really enjoy it
Nice. I would like to review that game but I feel I really need to understand it forward and backward before doing so.
@@DaveThaumavore Highly recommend running the Beginner's Box if you haven't already. It's great for introducing the rules a few at a time. Just make sure your players are OK with it being just a tutorial rather than a full fledged game session.
@@kryptonianguest1903 I’ll check it out! Thanks!
I was sort of turned off by not being able to thematically build the character I wanted without making a less effective character. I hate the optimization philosophy but always find myself pushed in that direction.
I love how brutal (and truthful) this video is and at the same time you manage to give a great quick guide to a bunch of games. Great stuff.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I love that you included ICRPG in your assessments, Been following RuneHammer for years now and he's always worked harder than anyone to bring to life his vision of a more fun, easier, quicker game!
ICRPG is awesome.
I like how you mentioned Fantasy Age (and of course, Dragon Age, which it's based on and which comes with its own detailed setting) and 13th Age (which I think is awesome). And if you're on a budget, let's not forget Basic Fantasy RPG. It's got everything you could want from an old-school D&D type of experience, including a whole bunch of adventures and campaigns, and it's 100% free!
Thousands of pages of rules with a * at the end that says "or just do whatever we don't know how this works either and we were hoping you would have stopped reading by now teehee"
It’s so adorable.
I asked my group to move to Savage Worlds, starting tomorrow.
Holy crap that is a super observation!
Just think if board games did the same.
I've played and run 5e at my local game store and 3.5, I've always prefered 3.5 because of its more complete rules in the core books that include things that 5e players want for 5e(crafting and worldbuilding details in the DMG). I'm coming out of a couple 5e games in the next few weeks and I've decided to pick up 3.5 again to run and I've got a crowd ready and waiting for non 5e content
I even think 1e & 2e are the best
A few games that deserve some attention that you didn't mention are Ten Candles, Stars Without Number, the entire World of Darkness from Mage all the way to Werewolf. There's also Monster of the Week and Final Fantasy 4E.
Another one that just came out is Die TTRPG (there is also a comic).
EARTHDAWN! Try the 4th edition!
As a relatively new DM who been struggling with 5e while beginning to think it was just me that found it to be klunky, slow, and sometimes even counterintuitive for both me and my players, I'm glad I watched this. I'll be looking into other options for my next campaign due to this so go ahead and take my like, subscription, and thanks. Cause seriously, Thank you.
Glad I could help.
I was just looking into FantasyCraft by Crafty Games
It is hard to run. You don't hold anything back. I can't agree more.
Thanks!
It's also hard to play. I like rules to be clear and unbloated. I have the player guide, the DMs guide, and 2 Box sets. I see no reason to ever buy any more WOTC products. Third party material is way better. Any other RPG system is better than DnD 5e.
@@carolinelabbott2451 Hard agree.
The rules are too much and not enough at the same time...
So glad you brought up Orion Black's experiences at WotC, which have been backed up and validated by other folks there.
WOTC love virtue signaling and then treating people poorly. They just keep doubling down on yelling how great they are when they are not even making a well crafted game.
My friends and I started playing RPG on World of Darkness' Vampire The Masquerade, and after that already began trying some more niche/indie titles. These titles were often very straightfoward on its designs, and as I was usually the GM for most of the time, it was insane to see the changes while transitioning to D&D, since we grew used to fast paced combat and simpler rules.
We simply hated D&D and its official modules. The combat was slow (and why the fuck do they put so many combat encounters?), the grid was a complete mess, the choices were boring, the lack of social systems were outrageous (for a party that was mostly used to make very social characters and relied mostly on the actual roleplaying aspect). For a "combat & dungeon crawling system" D&D was a complete letdown.
Then we tried to use D&D as base for our own adventures and... It was also bad, unbalanced and boring. We ended up homebrewing so much that it almost can't be called D&D anymore.
TL;DR, base D&D is really bad. Modify the fuck out of it, or simply choose a different system lol, there are so many better options.
I have 4 books from 5e. I like them when reading before bed time but not for playing. I fell in love with Old School Essentials. They are so straith forward and easy to navigate.
1000% agree. I think you correctly identified the problems and the recommendations have my stamp of approval (I'll also shout out EZD6, Knave, and Barbarians of Lemuria). I've been seeing a lot of people make similar videos since Ben dropped the 'DM crisis' video, and I've heard people grumbling these things in forums for years, but I think this is easily the best video on the topic now.
Wow, thanks for saying so!
Barbarians of Lemuria's magic system is a damn masterpiece.
@@federerlkonig330 how does it work?
@@Ptaku93 It is a "freeform". You have your pool of arcane points. And there are cantrips and spells of three magnitudes. For cantrips you only Need to spell 1 or 2 points, while actual spells require more points and some components, of which the rarity increases with the magnitudes. The best part Is that you decide the effect of the Spell and the components, there Is no an actual Spell list, only examples. And you can choose additional components ti decrease the cost.
Totally agree with what you say here. The rules for familiars delivering spells in combat make the vein in my forehead pulse uncontrollably.
Thanks, Bud, now my forehead is pulsing.
FYI the Player's Handbook falling apart was a known issue for the original printing of the book. They actually fired the printing company they used after that and have issued replacements for free (even in 2022).
yep my original PH fell apart after about a year but when I contacted WotC they sent me a free replacement.
I’ve only played 5e, but I’m personally pretty good at understanding it and making it function as a DM. My brother also runs TTRPG’s of all sorts, and so I’ve gotten exposure to different goals and different ideas of what a successful game session can look like. So, since I know it well, I can run it pretty easy.
Truly, though? Third party content is the best version of 5e from what I’ve seen. Sure, it means you can’t use dndbeyond the same way, but to me that’s a small price to pay
Man.... you totally articulated everything I've been trying to say for a minute. I've been slinging dice and killing Orcs since 1984, and I'm a big fan of anti-gatekeeping, i.e. doing my part to bring new gamers into the hobby and show them how fun the hobby is. But lately a LOT of that has been, "let me show you what else is out there besides 5e D&D." It's a bloated mess of a game. Plus I want sword and sorcery, not Marvel superheroes in chainmail; YMMV. I run games for the kids at work (I work in the residential side of a mental health inpatient program) and so far we've played Old School Essentials. They were blown away by how much more elegant and fun the game seemed compared to what they were coming from - i.e. 5e. And in two weeks I'm running them through either Zweihander or VAmpire the Masquerade, depending on how the vote goes. So yea... you're on point with this video.
This is gonna be the death of TSR part 2.
Thanks! Yeah, OSE is pretty pure and distilled fun. It can get simpler, but it can't really get more genuine than those early editions of the rules.
Just recently returning to the game after 30 years, I find it not to my liking. Personally I like the 1st and 2nd editions, it wasn’t so random with skills, powers and classes. I find the current version barely recognisable to what I played in late 70s to the early 90s. I guess it is what is what is familiar. I also understand the ‘evolution’ to capture a different player to my generation.
I also agree that choice of great games has never been better for hobbyists. I tend to explore the new stuff beyond the current version of D&D.
From what I'm seeing from a lot of rpg books and supplements the "writers need to meet a page count at all costs" and thus putting in filler after filler after filler isn't restricted to 5e/WOTC but sadly very very common nowadays (and it makes quite a few rpgs hard to read)
The point about the complexity, and how it can be a pain in the ass to run is spot on.
BTW, my DM is great, 15+ years of experience, homebrews settings writes literal fucking books into his worlds etc, great at balancing... but in 5e... our last campaign.
Level 4 party:
1st Encounter 15 mins into the game almost a TPK;
2nd Encounter, very similar in terms of enemies.... our sorc basically soloing the entire encounter.
DnD 5E.
5E is awesome, my sessions were pretty good. I changed the combat to Movement Phase, Action Phase, Movement Phase. Initiative still holds true, everyone moves first including enemies. Players can use partial movement to see what enemies do. Then there's the Action/Bonus Action phase where everyone goes in order. Then there's the final movement phase, where Players can expend the rest of their movement. Reactions/Ready/OppurtunityAttack happen in real time still. This creates a better scenario of combat with a fluent field, and it actually speeds up combat. Best part is, since initiative is still in play, the order in which things would happen still occur appropriately as if a player took their full turn before passing the torch, just sped up.
Sounds like it’s working out for you. lol
God thank you for talking about the horrendous power spike players receive in DND. It's something I know lots of players love and the biggest reason they abhor Pathfinder 2E, but as a DM, it's incredibly hard to just keep up with how far players go. By level 10 they're already legendary heroes, and by 14 they're god killers, and 20 is just, I mean, who cares? TThe game ENCOURAGES solo-play, as in, every player shining over the others, instead of working like a team like in an actual multiplayer game. With the rise of Critical Role, this only inflates a player's idea of what they should expect. Everyone thinks they can be Scanlon or Grogg etc, thinking they have to be god slaying bombastic characters, when really they can be interesting in their own way without being all that powerful.
As mentioned before, lots of players don't like P2E and that's mainly because it doesn't encourage single player modes, as in, no one hero will ever be a God Killing War Machine like in DND 5E. Pathfinder 2E's combat more focuses on survival, tactical thinking, roleplay, and most importantly, teamwork, otherwise everyone dies. You have NO IDEA how many people complain online in forums and on the subreddit about how they hate that their characters can't beat a Level 6 Captain Orc while they're only level 4. It's infuriating, as I've even seen some DND channels who at first, PRAISED Pathfinder 2E for being a great RPG, back down on their praise as they reach higher levels and realize "wait, why am I not a super cool epic badass killer at level 8? Wtf? This game's trash!".
I just wish more 5E players explore games other than DND, because from what I've seen people live, breathe, eat and die by 5E, so it's hard to expect any change from that any time soon.
Personally love PF2e, especially with on how balanced everything is in that system. It makes you have to think about every action you do. I also enjoy on how the feat system allows for good customization without overwhelming players.
I've been playing 5e for most of my ttrpg career and I gotta say, though I still enjoy playing it with my friends I don't think it's the fact that it's 5e that we're enjoying it. Hard to get people to learn new rulesets at least in my experience but I thought your video made really great points especially when it comes to how workers are treated by WoTC, I think that's a massive issue as well as the barrier to entry with how expensive books are. Also nice to see someone with critiques that don't amount to "OMG WOTC IS GOING WOKE"
WOTC, or any corp, going woke is commercialized compassion used to sell products.
@@99zxk oh yeah I mean its totally in bad faith by WoTC I just don't think trying to be inclusive in our games is a bad thing in general, despite corporations using these things purely as a marketing tactic
@@rainstorm1589 sure, but you could always play whatever you wanted, right?
Savage Worlds is honestly so rules simple and light I can wave anything I don't understand.
It's also workable for EVERY setting you might ever come up with. No need for another rulebook.
I really appreciate this video! I also want to add that for anyone who likes grim dark: mörkborg which is super fast and super hard. Imagine the world is falling apart and you’re not adventurers trying to save it but just make a living stealing things and not trying to die. In one session, the world could end mid turn and that’s a part of the game. It’s black metal old school dnd.
Another one I love is called hyperborea which does Robert e Howard inspired roleplay justice but includes more eldritch horror and even aliens if you so choose. It’s fascinating and terrifying.
Mork Borg is great.
hyperborean is a reimagining of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and is a great example of the fact that DnD isn't even the best version of itself. Any edition
Heh, I stopped using the rules when it first came out. 😜
Seriously, replaced it with Runehammers icrpg…
… until recently replacing it with Monte Cooks Invisible Sun system.
(Cypher System’s aroma is all over it… Invisible Sun is a system for peeps who love magic to the max!) 😊
Agree 100%! Glad to see you giving Savage Worlds some air time on your channel, both in this video and your recent review of Holler. Lots of excellent alternatives to 5e out there for everyone. Keep up the great content!
You recently asked what kind of content we as the audience would like to see more of. This is the kind of content we would like to see more of. Great work!
Haha! Thanks.
Reason 7: Hasbro of the Coast sent fucking pinkertons to a guy's house for the crime of having bought cards and being accidentally sent prototype for an upcoming release.
Video is a bit sensationalist but I agree with your sentiment. It's definitely time to start branching out from D&D to other TTRPGs. I will likely not be playing One D&D, and while I might see the movie if it gets good reviews I'm not die hard enough of a Forgotten Realms fan to feel the need regardless. Time to move on to Blades in the Dark, 13th Age, and I still have yet to crack out my copy of Heroes 6e.
Five Torches Deep is a very watered down version of 5e that leans more to OSR. I think that is a good jumping point to leaving 5e and going to the OSR.
Agreed. That's where I jumped into our style games, but it really leaves you wanting imo, but it's an easy plug and Play.
Try Shadow of The Demon Lord it kicks buttock
@@whatfruit7965 I will be looking into it for sure, but I do got to say that I'm a little skeptical it sounds a little much on the brutal side and a lot of my players are more towards casual and new, with a power gamer thrown into the mix.
My goal is to find or make a game that has the following criteria:
• low page count
• at a glance (like five torches deep where no ability or spell exceeds five words long in description)
• robust customization without a class system
Basically if groups wasn't 8001 pages long I would probably go that direction. But I just don't want to deal with it.
I also love how five torches deep works where everything you need to know about that specific section is on the page spread. no more no less. It's elegant and well thought out
@@broke_af_games9661 glancing through my bookshelf and here are some that might be worth looking at for you (have hundreds, but these jumped out based on what you said)
Barbarians of Lemuria (freaking. Awesome.)
Open D6 or D6 Fantasy (if you can find them)
Mork Borg
Black Hack
White Hack
Best Left Buried
Mazes
Fantasy Age
By this Ax I Hack
Magic & Monsters (brilliant)
Legends of Steel: Barbarians of Lemuria or Bash Fantasy versions
ICRPG (mentioned in this vid)
Talisman Rpg
Red Mists
Forbidden Lands
DCC
Jaws of the 6 Serpents
Low Fantasy Gaming
Scarlet Heroeelric (or BRP system games in general)
most of those are light with a lot of flavor. Some of those might hit at least close to what you're looking for. However my taste runs more towards Sword & Sorcery than DnD generic high fantasy
@@whatfruit7965 just realized a game that might tick all your boxes is Dragon Bane. It isn't out yet, and you can't get the beta unless you backed it on Kickstarter, but you can Late Pledge a copy for access right now I think.
It's the newest English iteration of Drakar och Demoner, derived from a d20 based BRP ruleset, simplified and streamlined for fast play. High fantasy. Definitely check it out
Thank you, I'm glad to see someone talk about this topic directly and honestly.
I feel that a lot of content creators that grew their public talking about 5e are unwilling to push back on the anti-consumer and monopolistic practicies of Hasbro and WotC cause they associate the success of the game to their own.
I agree. There is more to RPGs then just D&D 5e.
As a DM, I have no problems running a 5e game. I have several 5e my games I am running right now, mostly online. I also play in two different 5e games and really enjoy those games I’m in as well.
Of the various D&D editions, I find the rules for 5e a lot easier then trying to do the math with 2nd edition & THACO. Who knew you could play D&D without it? Don’t get me wrong, I played 2nd edition thousands upon thousands of hours with my friends back in the day. I have many good memories.
I enjoyed 3.5 and it’s my second favorite edition.
Pathfinder I noticed, it’s easy to make an OP character with the right combination of races, classes, etc.
I do have fond memories of playing Mentzer BECMI, where I first got started in RPGs and D&D.
1st edition isn’t bad, but 4th I had a hard time to get into.
That being said, I also LOVE ❤ so many other RPG games too.
Marvel FASERIP, Star Wars West End Games, Battle Tech/Mech Warrior, Last Unicorns Star Trek, Cthulhu, Shadowrun, Anything Paladin (TMNT is my favorite of the Paladin system), World of Darkness (Vampire, Wearwolf, Mage, etc) from the late 80’s to 90’s (not the new stuff), Aberrant (White Wolf Superheroes), Twilight 2000, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Paranoia , Kids on Bikes and Deadlands. So many good games to choose from and even more I haven’t mentioned.
I wasn’t a big fan of GURPS. To generic for me. Lol.
Over all a lot of good choices out there for your RPG experience.
I guess what I’m trying g to say is… why not both? I enjoy all RPGS. I think there is room for both 5e and everything else. I do think it’s up to all of us to let those who have only played 5e to let them know about the other RP games so they can experience what many of us already know. There is RPGing outside of 5e and it’s okay if you still like it and the other stuff too.
Really good video! I personnaly am very frustrated that people only want D&D, it's like the only thing they want, but of all the RPG's i have, i think this in the most unintuitive and unnecessarily hard to run system, and begining to hate D&D like fantasy (because Most players i met only wanted that) , i'm glad someone showed of some of the variety this hobby offers. It's sad that D&D still has this much power and most people discovering this hobby won't go beyond that or will stop this hobby because of the system, even if there are simpler (and better) systems out there, and crazy settings to explore
Where do you recommend a new player begin? I’m an old fart and was always a little curious about DnD but it just didn’t feature in my friend group.
Great video. I got in with 5E, but constantly having to tell my players 'you can't do that' or 'that doesn't work like that that' pushed me out. Now me & my players are happily enjoying the vast TTRPG hobby in a variety of different games and genres!
Congratulations on being free!
See my thing is I’ll ask the DM if it’s possible to pull off so and so and if they say no I move on, I really hate when players try to argue about it as it’s like
“Dude they said no already, stop trying to argue about it and take your turn already.”
A couple of years ago I decided that I wanted to get back into RPG’s because I really enjoyed playing D&D back in the day. Bought a bunch of stuff and then discovered that what I really like is Sci Fi (Alien, Mothership, Hostile). Thankfully I didn’t go to far down the rabbit hole with 5e.
It seems more timely than ever that you bring up all these other systems to the knowledge of a wider audience. I will be recommending your channel more and more to people in the TH-cam rpg space for rpg system ideas.
Thanks!
My Party and I have tried many game Systems before eventually setteling on Pathfinder as our go to.
We dipped our toes into D&D 5e but it didn't catch us as much.
Then A few months ago i have discovered Basic Fantasy and the World of OSR and it's so amazing to me that BF has very quickly become one of my favorite games (although we still mostly play Pathfinder)
I love Blades in the Dark, Advanced Tiny Dungeon, Dungeon World, Savage Worlds etc.. BUT I started playing (Solo) with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay in the 80s and I just got back into after a very long time and I’m loving it!
That sounds like a lot of fun!
WFRP is a classic. I still occasionally break out my old 1st edition to peruse. Inspiring style and content.
Love that you correctly identify Pathfinder as Dungeons and Dragons!
I thought everyone knew that!
@@DaveThaumavore I see so many people talk about it as if it wasn't DnD, or a separe thing from DnD. Mostly on discord from a more relaxed nature where people keep posting pathfinder in the "other-ttrpgs" chat, and not the "dnd" chat.
Thanks for the shoutout. Still a Perkins fan, but I hear ya. Much love and respect. --Professor DungeonMaster
Fair enough! Thanks for watching!
Cannot recommend Savage Worlds Adventure Edition enough. It's fast, simple, and extremely flexible.
Actually found this video searching for Savage World videos to try and get in. Seems really cool!
It is good. Not in my top personal top 10, but worlds better in design and play than 5e
Savage Worlds is one of the best games around, able to handle many genres.
First love the use of Peter and the Wolf at the end. Old favorite! Second I’m truly done with WotC for now. I can’t with a clear conscience keep buying this stuff. I’ve already moved on to other games but bought some books out of nostalgia (Spelljammer for example). Thanks for the great insights!
Amen!
Thank you for encapsulating that nagging feeling I've had about 5e for the last couple of published supplement the materials.
You bet. It’s gotten worse than ever.
"Dave Thaumavore loses his shit" was not something I had on my bingo card for today but I'm here for it.
Thanks to the Cypher System (the core of Numenera), I became able to make new ttrpg player into new GMs. They now GM with no stress or fear, and they feel confident to play every genre (fantasy, sci-if, super hero, ecc.) or to resolve many difficults.
Cypher is great for this, and has some great settings and so much support content to boot!
Fantastic video that does a great job describing issues that important and pressing for the TTRPG hobby. I hope that this is spread throughout the player base and that people actually think about the points presented and do not simply act defensibly and leap to the standard, dogmatic defenses of 5e (which usually amount to "I do not want to try anything else).
Me too. Thanks for watching!
I am a huge fan of ttrpgs. At my age I find games like Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, ICRPG, and EZD6 to be a more interesting games than 5e, less overhead to play and it feels more pulp. If I am looking for something Grimm Dark I like games like Electric Bastionland or any of the OSR games. The thing I look forward to, and the only reason I have to buy any new games at this point, is centered around one word, innovation, if a game has some new mechanic or process that improves play I will purchase the new game just to show love to the author. While I see that WotC has a new subscription model in One D&D, I am just not seeing any innovation in that space. It seems they are too tied to profit to take any chances on innovation.
I’m in the same boat always looking for innovation. WotC isn’t where I look either.
My Gen X heart was happy when Rifts came out for Savage Worlds.
I only recently got into 5e at the beginning of lockdowns. I’ve since been stockpiling games to play/run. Mothership, Mörk Borg, Bunnies and Burrows, games using the Cypher system and Monad Echo. I ran a Call of Cthulhu that was supposed to be a one-shot but everyone miraculously survived and have even asking to play again. There’s a lot out there.
DnD 5E got me into Tabletop RPGs, so it will always have a place in my heart. However, that being said, as a GM since i find myself having to homebrew a lot of rules and mechanics and alter campaign storylines... i've decided to make my own personal system, mixed with some Cyberpunk 2020 and Mothership. I do still think DnD would be one of the cooler tabletops to introduce people to the hobby, can't imagine intro-ing newcomers straight to horror/ grimdark and hoping they like the suffering ahahah
I started with WoD and I loved it
Good Points well made in this vid. I,ve played D&D eds up to 3.5 - shed my D&D collection around two years ago. My current campaigns up & running are : Runequest RPIGlorantha, Warhammer Fantasy 2nd ed & Modiphius Conan. Love the societal aspect of Glorantha, the dark filth of WHFRP & the moral ambiguity of the Hyborian Age. Class & level based D&D just doesn't cut it anymore. Dave's right about Free League - passionately made games, well bound books. My only gripes about FL is that their settings are very sandbox & it's quite difficult to die as a PC. I like strong death threat in my games!
I've run a few games before and the combat was what always bogged everyone down. I eventually concentrate on the story and how they were to get to the goals rather than every hack and slash or firing during a combat sequence. These games were supposed to be about imagination, creation and fun. They are now about rules and charts more kin to a spreadsheet game than anything else. AD&D and D&D hasn't caught my eye since 2nd ed. It had the best story content and worlds. It is the reason so many, I believe, are switching to card based or going to computer RPG games for open world content. Still, the storyteller makes or breaks the game no matter how many rules are given.
I have noticed today's game stores don't give a lot of shelf space to other RPG's vs 5e and Pathfinder. That wasn't the case 20 to 30 years ago.
Hyperborea and Against the Darkmaster have gained me as a new customer and player. Hyperborea corrects the true wrong doings of D&D which is forgetting their Clark Ashton Smith-inspired-roots.
Love Hyperborea.❤️🏹⚔️🪓🛡🗡
I think the swords and sorcery roots are just not “relatable “ to most of the upcoming generations, at least from my observations at the current game shop. You could tell the staff person found Dungeon Crawl Classics distasteful when I was purchasing it. And I like some of gentler less outre games coming out today as well. I sense a sort of “one tone pony” attitude out there.
Clark Ashton Smith is a great writer and artist.
The production value of North Wind Adventures' Hyperborea is just fantastic. And it pushes its own style that makes it really stand out. You pick up a Hyperborea book and think "this looks RAD".
I just started hyperborea and I’m so glad other people know about it!
I jumped from 5E to Savage Worlds shortly after it was introduced (so glad i did). I'm now really getting into Savage Pathfinder...a great mix as you pointed out. Never fails...a company is bought out by big money...and they have to keep upward growth or be considered a failed product. So shortcuts to profit become the norm...quality not so much.
I just got back into TTRPGs after 15 years and 5e turned me off. So glad I found savage worlds too. I’ve also been having a lot of fun with the fallout 2d20 game.
Great video! I have enjoyed and evangelized many of the same games you mentioned, and I couldn’t agree more. We have such an embarrassment of riches when it comes to choice, comparatively to when I was a kid in the 80’s, it is almost a blessing that Hasbro seems determined to fumble this flagship RPG, sheerly because it may give other games a chance to shine. After all, it was a similar fumble with 4th edition that led to one of my favorite alternatives in Pathfinder! It is a good time to be a gamer, even if it isn’t the best time to play the latest D&D products. One last thing, the product quality issue is staggering… I have books from North Wind Adventures, Burning Wheel Publishing, Chaosium, and Goodman Games that are so much more durable and beautifully assembled than anything from WoTC that an untrained eye would think WOTC was the Indy publisher!
Really well said, Dave. Way to take a well-thought out and principled stand. I buy and try a lot of different games and I’m doubling down on my support the indies this year.
Not holding back, Dave! Fantastic! I’m sharing this basically with all my RPG interested friends or WOTC hostages 😂
I didn’t really have a word for the filler text in the adventures until now. I’ve been converting Dragon Heist into Tiny Pirates for my group and every 6 page scene can be summarized in a sticky note of bullet points.
I have also borrow more mechanics and now general rules from small press then anything 5e has presented.
It’s so much work!
@@DaveThaumavore
I don't understand. I've not had this experience. I just read the material and run the adventure. What makes it so much work?
It feels to me that reading a 5e book is like I'm reading a school textbook. Especially after switching to a game like Quest where it has big bold lettering featuring only what you *need* to know to play the game. It doesn't needlessly complicate the rules or bury important info in huge blocks of text like 5e does.
@@burkle4508 I get that. When compared to OSR books the 5e text seem wordy. I find the extra description helps me understand the narrative. I don't try to remember it all. I just ascertain the tone and mood from the text.
I find 5e books much better than the AD&D books I grew up with. I also run more narrative campaigns. So, when I use OSR products I have to establish narrative connections to the rest of the campaign.
I think the 5e community wants narrative games. A lot of 5e targeted TH-cam videos often focus on backgrounds, motivations and story. 5e designers just haven't found great ways too include it in game design. Backgrounds and factions were a good start... but they dropped factions because not everyone plays in/on the Sword Coast. Waterdeep Dragon Heist was the last book that really used the factions, but they didn't give great tools for player character connections to that adventure.
The Ravnica book does a great job with factions. But they've yet to reuse that design in other books. That's disappointing.
Ultimately I agree with Ben Milton that 5e players expect too much of their DMs. I also agree that Critical Role sets the bar very high. But there's a glaring gap in the conclusions extracted from these points. Critical Role isn't great just because Matt Mercer is a great DM. He has Amazing and talented players. You can't run immersive narrative campaigns without good players. That style of play needs collaboration from all sides of the table. That's what's really missing from 5e.
If narrative driven games are the goal...
They need mechanics that motivate players to invest in the narrative. Chris Perkins fixing the DMs Guide will only help a little. Dave is right that 13th Age offers some tools. 5e needs to find their own. Or they buy Pelgrane Press and take them from 13th Age. If they really were the terrible corporation Dave described.
@@recursivecoin359 Well said.
Also, 5e is just too combat focused for the narrative playstyle that people want.
I don’t think people will quit DND but there’s been a sudden surge in the TTRPG groups to expand what games people want to play.
I’m new to the ttrpg, tcg and general board games but even I can see players diversifying to new systems, new games and ways to play. Is it a shame that this founder of ttrpg’s won’t be as dominant and growing further into this beast of a game but it’s definitely not a bad thing that this beast is at least being restricted and games like pathfinder, cyberpunk red, CY_borg, etc. are getting recommendations and recognised.
I still hope to play DND now and in the future but I also hope to play cyberpunk’esk adventures or play as a captain to an advanced spaceship or a grim dark world where the world gets closer to imploding.
We and the publishers deserve to see our favourite ttrpgs on full display, not just DND.
Great video, my biggest gripe with alternatives is that many great sounding ones are only in English, and while I personally have no problem with playing the games in English, my table would struggle and probably lose enthusiasm for these games due to it.
What we tried out was HeXXen 1733 which came out natively in German and is a fun experience, not sure if they already translated it into English, but once they do it might be worth looking at it.
Have you looked into Splittermond? Not sure if Uhrwerkverlag is still around, but I liked Splimo a lot. Base game used to be free, too. Some if the authors are former DSA writers, and you sorta can tell cause they avoided a lot of DSAs weird idiosyncracies.
Savage Worlds is available in German
100% great recommendations here. I've been DMing D&D since the 2nd edition of AD&D and there have always been better alternatives out there. The marketspace stranglehold Wizard's and TSR before it has had, only hurts the hoby as a whole. My current personal preference for systems leans towards skill-based ones like Traveller, the Basic Role Playing foundation seen in Cthulhu/Runequest or Free League's variations on its Year Zero Engine, but all of those D&D-like recommendations are also fantastic. Calling out Shadow of the Demon Lord specifically as the best version of D&D 5e out there, IMO.
I love this style of video from you! Just to corroborate you on print quality, I play Torchbearer 2e mostly and right now the core two books you need to play are $50 dollars. They are stitchbound and have gilded pages (!!!). For the cost of ONE poorly produced Player’s Handbook.
I’ve built up kind of a collection of alternate D&Ds now, because I’m a sucker for fantasy roleplaying. It’s very freeing to just have all these different and fine-tuned games for whatever I want to run instead of having to cobble together something half baked out of 5e.
There's no excuse for the poor quality of WotC's books. I can't stand them.
Good vid. It all needed to be said.
As a very long time gamer (coming up on 46 years soon) I take the most issue with the idea that the game is "under monetized". It seems to come from a huge misperception on Hasbro's part. They show that some ~20% of D&D gamers are DMs, but that these DMs spend nearly 70% to 80% of the money. That prompts them to want to tap that other ~80% of players for that additional ~20% to 30% of revenue. They are wrong. In my experience, lo these many years, that play groups tend to pool their $ for purchases. A new book is out? The group wants it but the DM doesn't have to $30 to $50 for it, they all poney up. The DM makes the purchase, so is the only one credited with the sale, but it was a shared thing. Same with VTT subs. Those can get expensive. An annual sub at the highest level for the best "stuff" can cost $100. Then there's all the books (in digital form) to buy (another $25 to $50 apiece). Adventure modules, maps, tokens, blah, blah, etc., ad infinitum.s all shared out. HASBRO are idiots and WotC are bigger idiots.
Thanks for giving a nod to ICRPG. I jumped ship from D&D in the 90s for the Hero system, which I used exclusively for 20 years. Bought ICRPG on a whim a couple of years ago, and feel in love the first time I tried it. Absolute opposite of the crunchy Hero system, but it's fun, fast, and flexible. Best system I have seen in decades!
I started saying this after 2 months of dming. 3 years ago. My favorite this far has been 5 torches deep. Followed by savage worlds.
TSR was just as bad, but on a much smaller scale. And their prices were always nuts. Now they're just super-nuts. I look at the starter box they put out and compare it to the Call of Cthulhu starter, and it's like they're not even from the same world. I've thought about grabbing a couple of the 5e books to port over in to Dungeon Crawl Classics (a game I actually enjoy playing and running, which has never been true of D&D), but their prices are bonkers. $50. for a 150 page book of dubious quality? Nah. I'll stick with Chaosium and Free League, companies that actually care about what they put out.
Absolutely. There's a principle in business called "charge what the market can bear." i.e. Charge as much for a product/service that the customers are willing to pay. They set those prices high because people keep demonstrating that they are willing to meet that price point. Infuriating.
Finally someone said it.
A thumbs-up for ICRPG. Old AD&D player here, and ICRPG is what got me back into the hobby.
My nephews and I started playing D&D a year and a half ago because I picked up the 5E Starter kit so 5E is all we've ever known. I did buy the Pathfinder beginner box but none of them seem to be interested in learning a different system. Especially when all of us had already bought so many 5E supplement books. I myself bought about 24 books. I have more than enough 5E content to last me years so I can afford to reject One D&D. But considering I've spent a few thousand on this hobby I just picked up not too long ago, I don't want to abandon 5E just yet.
1st time commenter and new subscriber: i just wanted to say this video is very much needed and well done.
I volunteer at the public library for their Kids D&D club which of course uses 5e and who can blame them. But running it for the 12 to 14 year olds is becoming a slog but it's what they know, what's around, and in stores.
I love old school D&D and would love to switch over to an easier and more freeing rpg game.
I would like to add a few games that also do it better than 5e. :
Labyrinth Lord ( w/ advanced companion )
Basic Fantasy ( only 5.50 for the core rulebook !! )
Castles and Crusades
I would like to have a few more fantasy rpgs that could be recommended to me for new players or young players. ?
Wonderful summation, Dave. You encapsulate exactly how I feel about WizBro. D&D is dead. Long live D&D!
I would say it’s your attitude more than anything that is getting in the way of you having fun with 5e, as well as most of the people in this comment section. My friends have a blast playing. It’s not hard to learn. I will say this video has opened up my mind to some of the other ttrpgs out there. So thanks
I believe that this dnd popularity is a temporary explosion populated by a lot of trend followers intrigued by the shiny new but ever ready to move on to the next shiny new. I figure that many of the new Dm's/Gm's are the people that are interested enough in the ttrpg hobby to go deeper & most of those people will be here as the crowd moves on. It has also been my experience that there has always been more players than Gm's. Playing means knowing basic rules, knowing your way around a character sheet & away you go. Gming can mean a lot of work even with Sly Flourish's brillant help.
To be fair, I'm an artist working in the tabletop gaming industry and WOTC is one of the best paying companies out there.
Well that's good to hear actually.
Aren't they pretty strict on having artists follow their style guide? Tbh, a lot of 5e art looks very similar
@@bjhale Companies generally have a vision for each project in mind and they hire artists to fit that vision. In another words, you either already do the style they want, or you don't get hired. This goes for WOTC, as well. Now, they do have somewhat robust design guidelines to follow, but that's not so much about the style of rendering as it is about the figure proportions of various races, cultural apparel, stuff like that.