DnD doesn't need WotC anymore
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OK. Let me get this straight around your steps. You're trying to say is d&d still owned by wotc, but owned by everyone. Right? I mean, critical role cares about d&d, and wotc still cares about d&d. So what you are trying to say is....that dnd owned by everyone?
@@mausklick1635 A reference from a Dungeon Craft video saluting Ben.
@@mausklick1635 lol, that change caught me off guard, too.
Well said on the video. I think there are some additional advantages to companies like WOTC: (1) Their marketing and presence in bookstore shelves and other shops, commercials, print, and promoted digital content, helps to get the word out to up and coming new potential players that "TTRPGs are a THING and they exist". Then, of course, we hope those players eventually find their way into the forms and circles they get the most out of. (2) While 'official rules' are not more valid than rules a group chooses or designs, it can be an asset to have a book that you know countless hours of design and play testing have gone into. I love people making house rules or even complete new rules for themselves, but not everyone is as experienced at how to make good rules that will be balanced and work well. It's all about how you approach those rules - as useful goodies you can use to the degree that works for you, or as dogma.
After I recorded this, Zedeck Siew told me that the two groups should have been called Law and Chaos, and you know what? He's right.
You missed group three (which likely isn't buying a lot of current product and also no longer has much cause to care what they do with the business anymore because they stopped making stuff for us a while ago). I get overlooked a lot, it's okay.
The "D&D is the RPG that matches the novels and comic books" (which, it no longer does, and those novels - except Drizzt - got shut down 5 years ago). These days I'm looking at going back to 3e for my D&D, because "Hey look, it's Faerun, and the 20 years of setting supplements and novels I like D&D for all still apply!"
i liked the "folk" term. it makes sense to me. Law and Chaos sounds like war.
No, it's more Walled Garden vs Crowd Sourced.
Lawficial & Folkaos
I guess this makes me nutrael. I buy the core books, but flesh it out with OSR and Homebrew.
I’m so glad you mentioned that Gygax wanted and kinda tried to do basically the same thing Hasbro is doing today: turning D&D into a lifestyle/media empire. Also I love how well he stated that D&D fans can never agree on anything 😆
The Wheel of Time turns, and D&D editions come and go...
Still D&D to Me
-Performers: Buckler & Dirks
-Lyrics: Stu & Ryan Keller
-Music: The Piano Man
-Producer: Wyatt Newton
What’s the matter with the new edition?
"Don’cha know that there’s only One?"
Do I have to learn a whole new system?
"If you don't, are you havin’ fun?"
"The game has gone from a hobby to a habit
You can play a dwarf or an orc or a rabbit"
Everybody’s talkin’ ‘bout the new edition, but
It’s still D&D to me
What’s the matter with the dice I’m rollin’?
"Do you really need so big a pile?"
Should I get a set of new D twenties?
"Grab a few and roll ‘em ‘round a while"
"Nowadays you got to be pretty frugal
"Rollin' what you need on a dice app from Google"
Norse rune, gemstone, even if it’s old bones
It’s still D&D to me
It doesn’t matter what they say on Reddit
'Cause the pundits never make much sense
The rules are broken ‘cause they don’t play-test ‘em
And you'll never get no recompense
Fix it in the supplements
What if I just want to play Pathfinder?
"That’s a Third Edition clone, no doubt"
Maybe I should try to play Fourth Edition?
"That’s the one we don’t talk about"
"Things were different when First Edition beckoned
They didn’t change much when they moved up to Second"
Class kits, warlocks, even if it’s Red Box
It’s still D&D to me
What’s the matter with the old-school players?
"Don’cha know that they’re out of touch?"
Should I try to sit and calculate THAC0?
"If you do then you think too much"
"Don’t you know we’ve gone digital, honey?
Microtransactions cost a whole lot of money"
Moldvay, old way, total party killed today
It’s still D&D to me
Everybody’s talkin’ ‘but the new edition but
It’s still D&D to me
(Shamelessly touting my lyrics to Billy Joel's music)
@@QuestingBeast but Old School always remains!
TSR had sooo many different modes of attempted income.
I've been playing AD&D since 1979, and have rarely, if ever, used house rules. We always played with Rules As Written. Even today, playing thru Zoom with folks from all over the world in my games, we all play with RAW.
“Law and Chaos” is a fun nod to alignment, but “folk D&D” - a la folk religion- is a perfect description. The knitting analogy is also very apt. An excellent video, thank you.
I think it's more like folk art and folk music, a style of art done not by corporations but individual artists for local consumption
@@gottfriedneuner3721 I think {folk religion-canon religion} reflects well the relation of both the people and the corpo with the Crunch and it's interpretation (Fluff is optional, Crunch is a must bc it is tied to the game's identity: if you play in the Forgotten Realms with the Fate system, you're playing Fate, not DnD)
"Folk" gaming means having memorable fun with your friends. It's a ritual. "Official" gaming (like 40K or MtG) is a process where mastering the rules is the game. Players will tend to evolve to get all the best gear and make all the "right" choices, even criticizing those who make "wrong" choices and blaming RNG for any setbacks. Ritual vs. Process.
Really makes MtG boring when you play with the guy who buys specific cards online rather than making a deck from 10 random packs.
The "Process" ultimately fails, however, since DnD isn't competitive. Unlike 40k and MTG.
Comparing a miniwargame and an RPG is not fair tho. 40k should be played RAW for the sake of balance. This doesn't mean you can't create your own unique models and rules for models that doesn't actually exist within the books, however doing so wouldn't be under balancing of a third party in this case is GW and each player on the table should acknowledge that otherwise it wouldn't be fair.
Folk vs Official is a much more interesting spectrum to view the hobby through than the usual Old School versus New School. Food for thought.
Further, this brings to mind days past when "RPG" and "D&D" were synonymous at most of the tables I played at. There just weren't a lot of other RPGs available, and most of them we would elevator pitch to our friends as "D&D, but [genre]."
I wonder if there's a X/Y grid. Folk/Official on one axis, Old School vs New School on the other. Plenty of tables out there playing as close to their favorite edition's official line as they can.
@@TimeLapsePrints I like a good classification as much as any other math enthousiast. But I don't see not caring about current D&D as a good thing or some kind of community defining trait....
I'm in favor or pushing for the Folk vs Official terminology.
I myself refer to the Folk side as Homebrew, but Homebrew is a mess. Folk just hits the right spot as a word. That's what I want to use from now on.
@@Minodrec That's fine as a general principle, but realize that historically, this isn't the first time Wizards of the Coast has pulled the corporate-douche lever since acquiring TSR's franchises and tried to over-monetize something popular because big daddy Hasbro said to.
They tried to wrangle royalties from a large number of small/community PnP developers via some extremely shady bait-and-switch legal bullshit under the 'd20' OGL back in 2005-2007. But not only did they fail their legal bluff, they then got to watch helplessly as one of those d20 startups (Paizo) publish what was essentially a clone of D&D 3.5 and eat their lunch for the next 7 years, while 4th Edition floundered.
Nearly all of that shift was community-driven, because not only was 4th edition an unwieldly slog to play with rules far better suited for an MMO PC game than a PnP tabletop, but Pathfinder (at least initially) essentially tried to fix 3.5's more obvious/self-evident problems and succeeded wildly at capturing that market from WotC...at least until its runaway success created the very same problem 3.5 was plagued with at the end of its own life.
5th Edition D&D succeeded wildly because someone at WotC had a working brain that year, and predicted that the market was looking for a more "back to basics, rules-light" version of D&D with fewer GM-migraines included than the Spreadsheet Wars that 3.5, 4e, and Pathfinder had become.
Alas, the slumbering corporate monster has awakened once again to the smell of 5e's success, just as it had with 3.5 and soon, will begin devouring its own market until nothing of value remains in an orgy of glut. Then small fry, DIY crowd will once again have to step in to fill in the void.
D&D One, from my estimation is destined for abject disaster.
Upping monetization in a time of economic turmoil is profoundly stupid, as evidenced by how badly it worked for WotC during the early Great Recession years accompanying 4e's launch. Which is to say, the Community apathy towards D&D hit record levels of "Who gives a shit?" back then, and I see no reason why it won't do so again in the not-so-distant future for D&D One.
@@atmosdwagon4656 very well said. I think the one difference this time around is how many young, casual players that have grown up with micro transactions in every video game and the cheap auto gratification that comes from "unlocking" features and skins, etc. This is the demographic WotC is hoping will drive their revenue in the future. Time will only tell how that works out.
My fears for WotC have nothing to do with my own table and with the growth of the hobby through new players. Everyone who already has a table can point and laugh at WotC trying to control the uncontrollable, but someone outside to hobby might see the costs WotC is trying to hock and either lose a bunch of money they dont need to, or not join in the first place.
This. Although it might be a boon, as more players get into D&D, the good, creative and thoughtful players will inevitably migrate our way.
@@christopherlee5380 Oh yeah, this might be bad for some people, but for the indie side, the OSR side, really anyone outside of the 5e crowd, this is great. People are bound to migrate away from WotC for this, and there is a community waiting, begging, for more players and attention.
That is a fair concern...
@@TheRealRahau I don't think less One D&D players means more OSR enthusiasm. OSR benefits from the growth brought by WotC. WotC missmanaging the brand cannot kill.the hobby but it surely can hurt.
This is a fair concern, especially since the paywall is the reason I already never got into MTG.
The good thing about DnD rules being a series of books, and the age we live in, is that you could go online and search hard enough or ask around and find all of the information you need without ever giving WotC a penny. Sure, they hate it and do everything they can to stamp out the pirate sites, but there are enough players who don't agree with how hard WotC are monetising it that they'll never stop someone who wants to from figuring out the game without paying for it.
Had this exact same thought yesterday. If they were to go up in smoke tomorrow, indie devs and homebrewers are going to keep the game alive forever.
That's always been the case.
but it won't go up in smoke they'll turn it into a billion dollar business as GW did with wargaming.
@@whatfruit7965 *facepalm* They were speaking hypothetically.
@@Doomwolf82002 no they weren't
@@whatfruit7965 you read mines or have the power to look through the webcam to see the intent on their faces? Hackzor
So glad you mention the similarities with Games Workshop. Both D&D and Warhammer have gotten to the stage where they are SO well recognized within their respective hobbies that they delegitimize other games/systems. Both companies tend to reinforce this perception of their product being the "only game in town".
Agree completely. Even worse, in these last few years I've been seeing the "Kleenex effect", in which RPGs (in general) are being called "D&D".
Many RPG youtubers make videos that concern to all RPGs, but they constantly talk about D&D (even though they aren't addressing any particular D&D rule).
Because actual table top game is not the only thing that matters. World and stories created in that world do. Warhammer 40k doesnt worth a damn without all that cool lore and awesome books. I dont care about some miniatures, they are just a piece of plastic.
Same with DnD. Rule books? Changes to classes? I dont fucking care. You can change that on a whim. What really matters is the world of Forgotten Realms. Its prominent characters, cultures, stories. If you tell me that GM's can write their own stories i will tell you to get the hell out. Not a lot of GM's can create compelling world and history for civilizations. Most of them only use cools stuff that was written by authors. And you can forget about some semblance of coherent lore if you a community of amateurs to write their own lore for the dnd universe. A lot of people started to play DnD not because they got interested by actual table top rules in the first place. But because they red some Forgotten Realms books. I got into Dnd because of Drizzt books. Pathfinder got me interested because of WoTR story and its characters. Not because of its table top rules.
Thats why people get angry when companies who owns their bellowed IP start to go downhill. That means there will be less or no at all worthwhile books or new interesting lore.
@@ratatatuff The 5e rules are great. It is extremely easy for new players to get into, and that is a good thing. I host regular games with people using a variety of systems, but every single person there besides me got into TTRPGs through 5e.
@@ratatatuff That low barrier to entry is why D&D got so popular. Love it or hate it they did something right.
@@ratatatuff Love it or hate it they did something right.
This is a wonderful and thoughtful video! And yeah, it's really interesting to think that we don't need the same corporate distribution to introduce folks to the hobby. We can get along without em!
I like you you specify the "Gary Gygax of year 19XX" because people do change over time.
D&D is like a close friend I drifted away from many years ago. I may have fond memories of them, but every time I check up on them I feel more sad; I'm sad because they've really changed and we no longer have anything in common except for a faint memory of what the good old days used to be like.
It’s like they’ve gotten involved with someone else and have strayed away from who they use to be. Like they’ve been misled down a dark road and it just breaks your heart to see it.
@@Cyxodus Yes exactly
@@JadeHarleyCoffeeMug I'm sorry you don't recognize a metaphor when you see one
have you actually sat down and played a campaign in the last few years or have you just been reading articles and watching a video here and there?
The beauty of table top games is they never die. If you preferred an older edition of the game, you can easily find it in an affordable, high-quality PDF; or you can play a more modern restatement of that edition, such as Old School Essentials or Five Torches Deep. It is just as possible to play 1980-style D&D today as it was in 1980. You just need three friends and some funny dice.
"It's best not to tie up your identity to a one sided relationship like that."
Words to live by. Well said!
Official D&D serves as an entry point everyone can understand and agree upon, especially if you are not adopted into an older group and taught their playstyle. In any edition it essentially forms a seed of commonality which the participants very often quickly begin drifting from as they search for what suits them best. For some people that doesn't mean very much and there are just a handful of house rules to bear in mind, while towards the other end of the spectrum there are highly complicated and modified systems... and beyond that a lot of people just go and play something else. D&D often serves as an entry into RPGs, and rather than bother messing with the rules a lot of people just become interested in radically different games. Generally, the longer you have played, the more likely you are to play in an extended homebrew system or play entirely other systems. This is called 'experience'. It applies to most things in life and definitely in creative fields. We learn to paint in conventional ways and then, if we stixk with it, we begin seeking different styles which appeal to us more... and sometimes change mediums entirely. Official D&D is just that start point... certainly useful and certainly important... but just at a patticular stage of your gaming development. It is invariably a phase you will grow out of if are someone who wants to explore the hobby a little deeper.
I agree. Indeed once you are experienced enough you barely need official publications. I'm not sure indie OSR is beginner friendly enough to grow a community. It's easy to deal with a lack of structure when you know most RPG by name, can name most modern author, and own a curated collection of the best publication in the 30 years.
THAT. It's way easy to introduce new players to the hobby via D&D.And if they become involved in such hobby, else they stay with D&D with minor tweaks, else they go elsewhere like OSR or generic systems. IMO.
@Izanagi While it is certainly true that some players will expand their TTRPG interests beyond official DnD, it is not true of all players - not even, I'm afraid, true of all players who become invested in the hobby.
It's hard to get objective, representative data on this, but even on comment threads of RPG sites and channels, and the user data sites like roll20 make available, numbers suggest that the absolute majority of players only ever play DnD, rarely, if ever, trying something else out, and even more rarely sticking to other systems for long...
That's not to say these are all "official players", to borrow the definition used on the video. Lots of them homebrew the heck out of the game, which might be the reason they never feel the need to move away from the game either.
But it seems even consummate homebrewers like to keep up with the current versions and up to date content for the game, if for no other reason than it provides them with more options to play with before starting to homebrew again. For such players, whatever comes out of WotC will be important, and these changes might affect them considerably - and because they're an important part of the industry's ecosystem, it will affect everyone else to some extent, too
Yeah, I homebrew as much as anyone else, but the core rules are still important, because without them you're asking any new player at your table to relearn the game from scratch. My friends mostly aren't the type to do that. On top of that, homebrewing well takes a certain mastery of the rules, because there's no real point to breaking a rule you don't understand. Maybe some people are happy to play pretend as they go, but as someone who's gotten more and more into game design over the years, I can't be one of them. Do I need The Rules so I can function? No. Will explaining my rules be harder without them around? Absolutely.
@@Raphir Available statistical data suggests D&D accounts for slightly over half (52% last year) of all online ttrpg games on Roll20 (obviously impossible to get data ran through things like Discord).
Price's Law and Pareto Distribution at work. The video and the original comment miss how critical D&D's marketing and accessibility efforts are in getting people into ttrpgs at all.
Especially for the low-investment, casual, and limited options (eg small towns or unusual schedule) players, keeping up with the up-to-date version is especially important to be able to find anyone to play with at all. Then there are factors like perceived coolness, system support and play options... there are lots of reasons, both valid and fallacious, to keep up with the modern version.
I'm just waiting for the bizarre merch of the AD&D era. D&D towels, toy motorbikes, 'official' DM gauntlets etcetc. Grognardia has a pet interest in those.
Don't forget to bring a towel.
Oh its arrived. D20 lamps, beholder transformers, journals and drinking glasses...just wait til they monetize the toys adapted from the upcoming movie.
can i shake my fist at our corporate overlords while wearing my new WotC brand wizard's hat?
How wouls a DM/GM gauntlet work if i may ask.
Flashlight, Frisb-.. "fantasy flyer", sunglasses, cross stitch kit, candle maker, woodburning kit, clay mold, big wheel & beach towel, wallet, candy, pencil sharpener, threeish toy lines (ljn action figures, PVC figures, bendables and windups), standup craft kit, 28mm model scene kit (NOT intended for play), toy swords and armor in various configurations... jigsaw puzzles, toy slide puzzles... what else am I missing from the 1983 D&D merch blitz?
Official D&D is what gets more people to Folk D&D. It has presence in the market, produces a lot of professional grade content that is found in standard commercial outlets. It buys advertising. It creates a brand.
I qgree. Those things seems undervalued on YT. But I like how Paizo do those things better. WotC feels too corporate.
well said, as a DM of 40+ years, falling on the folk side that entire time. I love looking at the various modules and published materials, but take them or leave them based on what my players want or where the campaign is going. We've played 'official' adventures sometimes but most often it's bits taken from here, ideas taken from there and mashed together for wonderfully imaginative campaigns that go on for years.
There's a lifetime of content for all existing versions of D&D. No one needs a new edition unless it's actually solving a problem they have. Virtual Table Support is an issue, but that can be navigated like any other system.
There are open source, quality VTT systems like Maptool available for free. At worst you might need a VPN to do the port forwarding, but I've used maptool since 2011 or so and it's really quite good.
You and I don't need a new edition. But the hobby has always been affected by how good the current D&D is. And that's because most beginners roleplayers needed D&D to learn. I wouldn't say that 2008-2010 with bloated 3.5 and boardgamy 4e were really good years for the hobby.
I like 4E,but it's also basically impossible to play now that official support was turned off. So many powers and abilities from different books and magazines, often which would only have 1-2 options for the character you're playing, and while you can of course hand transcribe those cards, they were REALLY convenient when your character sheet would just print them for you.
I would like to add. I always heard that Pathfinder 2 was "too crunchy". But in the last few months I have been watching the knights of last call channel's reviews on pathfinder and I finally picked up a copy. DAMN it is not super complex. No more complex than 1e or 2e that's for sure. I think it is a beautiful alternative to the elephant in the room. And much more fun to create a character. The 3 action rules is elegant, as are the unique way critical hits work.
Savage Worlds pathfinder is the way forward 😉
Literally two YT videos did a horrendous amount of damage to PF2e's reputation
I've been sticking with 5e for now but I have a homebrew class in mind and I think the 3 action system would be perfect for it, since there's an action you'll want to take a variable number of times a turn to set up your abilities.
Spot on. I’ve gotten tired of 5e and have switched over to Pathfinder 2e. It’s a better system and easier to run.
I ran my first game recently and one of my players was a burnt out 5e forever DM. He was raving about how much better the 3-action system is and just loved the game.
@@ratatatuff Admittedly, now that I'm trying yo remember them both I'm really only finding one of them, Taking 20's "illusion of choice" video
Wizards of the Coast persuaded people to buy character sheets and miniatures. When I first started D&D, we used index cards as the character sheet. Index cards were also used to show march order and position. Index cards were and are a lot cheaper than character sheets
No a bad idea actually, though character sheets are free.
Check out index card rpg!!
I assure you, we had and bought packs of character sheets from TSR in the 80’s.
@Count Skumafeder but we're talking now not 35+ years ago.
@@countskumafeder2933 I heard. What's weird to me sometimes is I always ask, why? Then I look at people who buy every book, I'm in that camp sadly, and I see, yeah, it can be very bad to financially support bad practices.
Also of note regarding Gary's position in 1982 is that TSR's market share was being besieged and he was likely attempting to shore it up a little.
Having a terra firma org like WotC is hugely important for the hobby. It ensures a common reference, wide product availability, more standardized experiences, and greatly reduces barrier to entry. When WotC failed with 4e, the hobby didn’t shatter, Paizo / Pathfinder became that reference instead.
I agree with this point. I understand that most OSR enthusiasts don't need those things from WotC anymore. But we all had to start somewhere.
Whilst I agree with you somewhat, I think the largest issue here is when a group doesn't all fall under the same banner, but is a mix of both "folk" and "official".
It's also important to note that tables don't last for ever, and when you're building a new group to play with, the "official" rules and way of doing things will almost always be the baseline.
I don't know if that's actually possible.
"official" is "following the rules, all the rules... you change a single one, you are not following the rules anymore.
From this pov, if you think about it, it's a pure dichotomy, you can't fall in the middle of it, you can just count the rules you've changed.
You can also start a new group using the official rules as a baseline, sure it's easier, but at that point what matters is your mindset about the game.
You're either sitting thinking "nobody ever touch my precious rules" or "let's see what happens, 'cause I've got a couple of things in mind I want to propose".
Also, in my experience, when you sit at a new table, most of the times is just the DM having an idea on what rules to follow or where to go, while many players just want to have fun, whatever the DM comes up with.
I don't know, I think if WoTC keeps going in this "keep charging people money forever" direction, people who are interested in getting into TTRPGs for the first time will be incentivized to choose ANY OTHER way of playing a TTRPG, because the "official" way will have become the most expensive way. In this day and age, when you can find practically every version of every TTRPG ever made with a quick search, no one is in any way obliged to use the "current, official, corporate-approved, endlessly costly" version of D&D, and I think that that's a truism that the "Why aren't we monetizing this more?" people are ignoring and hoping to magic away with wishful thinking. It's really up to whoever's running the game to decide what version of the game to use. People who just want to play a fun game are going to show up to eat a slice of whatever flavor of TTRPG pizza the game-runner serves up. Why would they do anything else, if they're new to the whole thing?
Parasite is such a perfect and accurate way to describe WOTC
Each and every "cultural" corporation
And GW. Don't forget about them.
Wizards of the Hasbro
I contend OSR is the parasite here. They rely on D&D's marketing and accessibility focus to siphon players into ttrpgs in the first place.
@@nevisysbryd7450 Yeah, that's such a weird take. We're living in a surge of interest in role playing that hasn't been seen since the 70s and that's driven almost entirely by the success and marketing of 5th edition.
Sure, individual groups can play with some old set of rules or their massively home-brewed 5e core book or even any of hundreds of non-D&D based RPGs, but it's the 900lb gorilla of D&D that drives the hobby and makes a lot of it possible. The vast majority of new players come in through D&D and if even a small fraction of them go on to try out other systems or styles, that's still a lot of people.
If you've got your home group and you've been playing together for decades, you've got no need for WotC. Otherwise, it's good for the hobby as a whole, even if you don't want to play Official D&D.
As someone who hasn’t run (and has almost never played) the official, current version of D&D since about 1993, I can’t overstate how liberating it is to decouple your game from whatever the current owners of the D&D IP happen to be doing at the time.
Find some friends, find a set of rules you can all live with, find a handful of sources of inspiration, draw up a couple maps, roll up a few characters, and game.
I knew it. I knew the moment they went digital it was to sell microtransactions. And remember, any option you can 3d model or print yourself is one they can't sell you. So they have an incentive to stifle user creativity.
this video just illuminated to me some absolutely bizarre disagreements I had with the other GM in a multi-gm west-marches style e5 game a while ago.
each time a new wizards of the coast book came out, some of the gms and many of the the players immediately started to treat it's content as both legit player options and as authoritative lore and system-wise.
It was bizarre. they took the most ill-conceived spells or races, often written for entirely different settings, and when I said I don't want them in the game they reacted like I'm being unreasonable. often, the argument was something like "yeah it's more powerfull then the old player options but it's not THAT different" and my reaction was " I mean sure, but why should we even do ANYTHING with that new book? it's not very well thought out and don't really jibe with our setting. it's just power creeping into our game random nonsense and encourag players to switch characters" and we would go back and forth on it endlessly.
now I get it. it's just the folk vs official mindsets - I treat Wotc books as high production low value homebrew of a big corporation, and other people treat it as THE authoritative game.
My concern as D&D becomes a lifestyle brand is what colour will WotC choose for the D&D soap-on-a-rope to be released at Bed Bath and Beyond.
You'll get different colours, of course. Beholder Purple; Goblin Green, Goliath Grey, and Tiamat's Pride for June.
@@arjunchoong8012 "Tiamat's Pride for June" 😂 *Bump*
This just clarified why my previous 5e party fell apart. Half the people were slightly younger players who had begun with 3e, and me the DM who grew up on BECMI and 2e and then switched to Whitewolf. I was going back to DnD from a folk perspective and they were official people. Thank you for articulating this so clearly. I think I will bring it up in any future session 0.
Ah becmi :3 that's a name u haven't hear in a long time
What white wolf?
@@truffeltroll6668 company that made the World of Darkness games: vampire, mage, etc.
@@truffeltroll6668 my two games from WW were Vampire Dark Ages sbd Mage: Sorcerers' Crusade
As a gamer since 1981, I agree with pretty much 100% of what you said. Corporations are gonna corporate. People are overreacting over what she said, but for anyone who has worked for corporations know all she did was typical business speak and nothing alarming was there at all.
What makes you think ppl are OVERreacting ?
It makes senses to comment on Hasbro playtest and financial state. They are defining a big part of the Hobby evolution.
Those things wont have big short term impact on our home games so most ppl aren't truly upset. We can be critical about how little One D&D bring to the table without being angry.
What a refreshing take on the whole situation. I so love your categories of Folk D&D and Official D&D. It helps break down the fandom to better understand it. Well thought out vid without bloat. Great!
I need only point at Mr. Welch and his one man achievement of resurrecting Mystara
Edit** well, one man to carry the flame, hire the artists and find playtesters, etc. But he was the one putting his campaign book together.
My daughter and I once made an old school metal tradesman lunch box for her, and her schoolmates asked "is this real or did you make it"? Always surprised by Normies, playing official rules, driving factory stock cars, unable to hem a set of pants or improvise a meal, wound up about which corpo logo they're flashing. Your observation that we don't need them the way they need us is everything.
By "normies". Do you mean consoomers?
@@rikospostmodernlife Well, what we buy IS a creative expression, and sometimes the factory settings are fine, but this mindset that insists it's the only layer of choice, that boggles my mind.
@@monkeymule1286 I cook all my own meals (for health reasons) and really see this with people who treat restaurants as a meal plan rather than an experience. Nothing wrong with enjoying having someone else cook for you, but never forget how capable you truly are.
Your earlier talk about 5e's DM shortage seems to have spawned at least a few videos where other D&D youtubers give their opinion on the subject, and I really hope this one creates the same kind of discussion. It baffles me how much some people will cling to the latest corporate release of their favorite game, even though they're obviously not actually enjoying it anymore.
I still play it actually as a gm and enjoying it, though tbf i havent reached to that phase *yet* where i would say it sucks but im taking my time to enjoy 5e and the hobby in general.
I've been dming 5e every week for like 3 years. Before that, I ran 4e every week for years.
The stuff wotc puts out only effects my table if someone wants to play a new subclass. I check it out, we talk about it, make alterations if we want, and move on with the game.
Wotc trying to push microtransactions won't win them any fans. Most of us won't buy it, others will move to less greedy game companies and there will be a few suckers who spring for it.
My group also went online during the pandemic, and I can see the appeal of a fully functional vtt, but unless it's open to modding(and it won't be) so it's easy to homebrew stuff, people will tire of it.
Playing online is convenient, but in person will always be better. Always.
@@Biostasis5x7 Bear in mind not everyone has the opportunity of privileage to play in person tho. For me its online or solo and even then TIMEZONES are my bane for online real time.
I think the biggest value in having standardized rules is access. It's much easier to join and play with multiple groups, especially online where you might be the only common factor.
It's much harder to do that if the games have little in common on the rules side. As it is, I'm constantly in a position where someone in a group reminds me that something is from another edition.
Still, most groups I've played with use at least some house rules.
And social accessibility is the biggest barrier to entry in playing ttrpgs in the first place. Finding other people interested in using the same system, to get the same or compatible experiences or engagement types, at the same time, on the same platform, is pretty difficult for quite a lot of people. OSR players tend to be high on the investment curve by default and thus are liable to have greater access to reliable playmates than the norm.
Love that you cited Alarums & Excursions, it's such a great window into different eras of the ttrpg hobby. Still going today!
Now that you've mentioned the "folk" vs "official" factions, I'm kind of curious where my group and I fall. My instinct was "Oh, we're DEFINITELY folk! We homebrew and change rules for expedience and comfort all the time!" But a little voice in my head reminded me of a video MrRhexx posted a few months ago endorsing the importance of "canon".
In summary, the official books allow for a cohesive experience among playgroups and even just being able to talk within the community. Imagine if each group of D&D played with orcs as different from D&D to WH40k to Warcraft. Discussing what orcs are and what makes them orcs would be nearly impossible. As I type this, I can only think of r/dndmemes and the various interpretations of the Warforged race and how Warforged are basically anything from robots to cyborgs to Pinnochio.
So, yes, official D&D does have a role and responsibility to the community and that is to make clear exactly what everyone is talking about so that you don't require a 15min primer before every discussion on topics. Everyone does not have to like it or even adhere to it, but you can't deny that it's not an important role to play.
Corporations are always "important," but also, to hell with them
@@jesselarson1281 I wouldn't even say corporations as much as canon historians and lore keepers.
The only reason the corporations are even involved is that lore keepers without power and reach to communicate said lore are useless and the easiest way to access both of those things are through the corporations.
I'm glad you mentioned Games Workshop because the Warhammer groups I'm in suffer from chronic officialitis, doing little but bemoaning the death of Fantasy Battles and hoping that GW's upcoming The Old World thing will finally Bring Back Fantasy and make things Just Like They Were in the Old Days again. It makes me want to scream! Fantasy players don't need GW any more, we don't need new models and we don't need new rules. Use whatever models, use whatever rules!
9th age is alive and well. But it's not easy to balance a game like WFB. This hobby clearly need at least rule publications from a respected rule commitee. The fact that GW loved marketing mini threw powercreep doesn't mean that balance cannot be pursued.
Exactly, if you want new modals then go 3D print them.
Kings Of War 3rd edition is also a really great game if you want a rank and flank. It's not exactly Warhammer, and that's okay
Great video. I am going to adopt this 'folk' terminology. What goes unsaid here is that the 'orthodox' experience that WoTC's published content brings to new players is very important. It starts as a capital-G game and new players want to feel that solid ground under their feet--ground made official, determinative, and authoritative. But the longer a person plays, the greater chance they have of becoming 'folk-minded'. Some realize they value narrative over rules. Other see problems in the rules and start to tinker. Not everyone follows this arc, but broadly speaking, many orthodox players are newer, yet veterans have seen the man behind the curtain. The moment you use even an officially published variant of the rules--even one to be found in the PHB or DMG--you have dipped your toe in the folk-waters. D&D is like a language and cannot be arbitrated or governed.
Watched this video three times in a row because it it very nice to hear you put words to a tension I’ve experienced. Thanks!
Greatly appreciate you taking the time ro clearly lay out what is so easily forgotten
I'm really glad you mentioned warhammer. I returned to that hobby around ten years ago, and have played a mere handful of games because almost everyone I met was a RAW player. When I first left it we used to house rule loads of stuff (in my group), and I sat firmly in the folkhammer category. The same goes for RPGs, the games I played at school without a rulebook and with loot as our levelling up were the best I ever played. Now I'm a lifestyle brand DnDer (in the Hankerin sense of DnD- so maybe OSR I suppose). I say lifestyle because I emmigrated and now can't find a group. I'm nervous about even looking for one to be honest, because I see the game as 6 stats and a handful of dice, and if my players see it as a collection of rules, skills and classes it won't even be worth playing
Seeing the *huge* difference in Gygax's own opinion between 1975 and 1982 is such a great example of how financial success changes a person's viewpoint.
D&D is such a personal experience. What makes the game fun is those special unique moments that you share with your friends. Each one is like capturing lightning in a bottle. The rules or editions of the game are simply just the vehicle, but it's those "whoa" moments that drive it. It's the "remember when..." moments that make D&D a great game.
TSR, Hasbro or whoever can build their marketing around it, but they can't sell these moments and experiences as they are created by the spontaneity of the players around the table.
I think it's events like these where they overlap more and the official side have a chance to transform into this more folk aspect.
The last time I bought a NEW “official” D&D product, it was still owned by TSR! 😂
Me too... ;-)
Same here :)
Folk dnd, love the term.
Ode to Deathbringer with Flexing Beast - magnificent! Great job man!
Love seeing The Glatistant pop up in my inbox. Can't wait for the next one! Cheers Ben!
I like the attitude generally. I’ve enjoyed running 5e but also wish it were easier to get an OSR group together for my own preferred drift of the game and its rules. I was doing a lot of OSR games in the Google+ days. I think the re-evolution of folk D&D post 5e will be interesting to observe.
If you're going to have convention games, online gaming between strangers, or even local open table games, you need, ideally, a single official current version of the game so that the players can be fairly confident of what they're getting themselves into when entering these games. This is the critical role that the official corporate version plays in maintaining the hobby. Therefore it's in RPG aficionados' interest for that version to be good.
The same way the official WotC beginner box is central to the hobby. Even if we don't plan to own it. We might be ask to run it or have to consider it as a gift for a relative.
I'd say you could just as easily gather conventions around lesser published titles, and run games with strangers featuring home rules. The only requirement is that those who arrive know what system to expect in advance, and can prepare.
As the video mentions, more often than not gamemasters are the only ones buying official content. Plenty of players have started the hobby and done it for years without ever owning official content.
I suppose things get more stringent if we approach magic the gathering, but that involves a whole host of other business strategies that require rule enforcement, such as artificial rarity of certain cards, that can't be applied to TRPGs.
I really like how just yet incisive you managed to share your stance on the question. Thanks for this video.
Flexing Beast...YES! Thank you for the content and the overall comradeship between the various OSR minded content providers. Looking forward to your next post.
The wider D&D culture has grossed me out for a while now, and I eagerly await the stampede of players vacating the shadow of WotC, may they find better games.
What about the wider d&d culture has grossed you out?
@@wagnerkm89 Ah yes, the classic "if you don't like modern DnD then you must be a racist and such"
@@wagnerkm89 So you're essentially saying "anyone who doesn't like thing I like is an awful person". In essence, doing the exact same thing you accuse OP of.
@@wagnerkm89 Again with the "anyone who disagrees with me about DnD is assumed to be a bigot". *That* is the culture that OP is talking about. And recently, 5e is doing stuff like microtransactions; of course people are upset.
@@wagnerkm89 Not really, the vast majority of the anger over 5e before recently was over oversimplification of systems from 3.5e. The "mad cuz inclusive" argument is hot air and "how dare you criticize thing I like, I'm gonna assume you're a bigot to make myself feel like the good guy", just like you've been doing. And yes, look up 5e microtransactions, it's a recent thing (mind you, you yourself said a lot of the dumb outrage was recent) that has a lot of people from all walks riled up because WotC is trying to introduce predatory monetization to DnD as of late. Not everyone who disagrees with you on DnD is a bigot, like you seem to think; the vast majority aren't.
My favorite non-review video you've made so far. Good on you, Ben. Thanks for saying this.
A discussion came up while I was prepping a 5e Curse of Strahd campaign form my usual group that sort of reminds me of this and the ‘DM shortage’ video you made. One of my players wanted to use the WotC rules for Dhampirs for her character, and another wanted to use some interesting homebrew. I spent a while agonizing over what would make my job easier and keep them both happy, before slapping myself in the face when I remembered that it’s not my job to keep track of the players abilities, and they both just did what they wanted. I’m very new to this hobby so it was a nice thought to have.
I was on site when there were no less then 4 editions of D and D on the shop shelves. I watched it evolve and morph into something bigger then could be contained.
I am genuinely blessed to have lived in such times.
This was great. I'm definitely folk D&D. You describe my attitude towards WotC perfectly. I have a bemused curiosity which usually results in an eye-roll, but I certainly don't get upset by anything they do or put out. If they put out something cool, I'm open to buying it.
Yeah, if they put out something good I'll pick it up, but I'm happy enough to leave them alone if they don't produce good stuff. I'm not mad about it, just ambivalent. Feel the same about GW - if their stuff is a good value proposition I'll pick it up, if not, I won't.
Plenty of other cool stuff out there, and I'm also capable of making cool stuff myself.
@@johnnybigbones4955 Sure. But what if a coworker ask you about which miniature or RPG books he can gift his 10 years old ?
@@Minodrec You suggest one? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just genuinely confused as to what point you're trying to make.
I think I land firmly with a foot in each camp. I think there is value to the "official rules", partly to have a unified entry point into the hobby so that everyone knows what you are talking about when you say "D&D". I also like the official rules as a polished, play tested, foundation that has a coherent and refined core design. I've made my own TTRPGs before and they are a bear to build from the ground up and take hundreds of hours to playtest and refine. There is value in having a baseline that you can use as a starting point or precedent when playing.
But when push comes to shove, my table is my table, and I'm going to run the game that I want to run. I use the official rules as a starting point, but my "house rules" section is huge, and I am incredibly grateful for the patience and tolerance my players have given me as I tweak and add and change rules as I see fit. I love the Folk style, I can't help but out my own spin and game design ideas into what I play, but I pity the player, old or new, that has to learn all the eccentricities of the games that I run.
Official content can help unify expectations, give common ground, and help grow the hobby, but Folk style is how I think the game is meant to be played, without the "official rules" getting in the way of having fun. I think the best games are found in the balanced tension between the two.
Depending on how you count, there are now at least 10 different official versions in publication. From OD&D to 5e. B/X is my favorite polished and playtested version, but there are lots of different opinions on that front. Regardless of your preferred version, we don't need the corporation to give us another. All the best ideas are coming from small and independent publishers anyway.
DUDE! Spot on! Thank you for putting it out there so succinctly.
Folk vs Official is a framework I'm now going to be applying for the rest of my life. Great video!
I think you've missed a key component here and that is that even many folk players are going to be impacted by this tremendously. Personally, my 5e game has a ton of homebrew in it and we have a lot of house rules that deviate from the main books to better suit our feelings on how something SHOULD work.
But because we started during the pandemic, all the books I have purchased, all the homebrew I have created, our character sheets, our campaign... it's all online. A lot of that we are trying to migrate off of DNDBeyond but... WotC owns it. They own our entire "Folk" campaign. And if they tomorrow say "In order to access your stuff, it's now $20 a month per person", well we're stuck paying that until we can get stuff off of there.
This is the problem. It's not a schism between folk and official dnd players. The conflict is between people who rely on the digital platforms that wotc is talking about being under-monetized and those who don't or who don't see a problem with papa hasbro gouging their wallets.
There's also just something repugnant about a game based largely around imagination being called "Undermonetized." How dystopian of someone to say, "We really gotta find a way to get premium currency and battlepasses into the imagination gameplay loop."
This is what I know will happen, and why I don't have much hope for DnD as a 'official brand'. That they want to monetize it similar to mobile sector products means not only subscriptions, but microtransactions. I know there will be some 'whales' out there that will cave to the coming tyranny, but it wont be healthy for the brand and getting a group together will begin to have a requirement of 'either everyone must have Beyond, or no one will', as those who havent spent large sums yet will be hesitant, and those who went financially all in to WoTC will be frustrated or offended if they cant use what they paid for (despite the fact that the game is played between the group members, not between members and WoTC).
I felt this was off since Beyond was created, honestly. Compared to the ease of finding 3e (and even 4e imo) character creators, auto generated spreadsheets, rule wikis, etc, the current landscape on 5e feels more restricted. While the fan & free tools do exist, many that stepped into competitive territory with Beyond were shut down.
Perfect time to remind everyone that there are thousands of other RPGs on the market that you can play, many that do exactly what D&D tries to do but better. Many more that do completely different things and open up new storytelling possibilities and methods
However this is exactly the problem - without D&D there are so many options, and the market is so fractured that we might lose most due to people finding it too daunting to decide on what to play, and even harder to find anyone to play it with..
@@EnrahimRPG I completely disagree. D&D as the only game in town has always been a problem. More power to people who love it, but there are so many other great games out there that deserve love.
It can be difficult to convince people to try other games, but that is largely because D&D has such a monolithic stranglehold on the hobby. If it fractures, people who enjoy roleplaying games will either keep playing D&D as usual, or try other games out.
Best way to get others to try a game though is to start running one shots or small campaigns.
@@03dashk64 I dont think we completely disagree. I fully agree D&D is currently too big for comfort. My argument is that completely eradicating it would possibly have led to a situation even worse than the status quo. I would really like to see a greater flow of people from D&D to other games, but that flow is there and I believe that flow is very healthy for the eco system. Without the relative torrent of uninitiated currently going to D&D, I fear the flow would rather turn to a tricke.
@@EnrahimRPG oooh I see what you mean. Yeah I am forever advocating for people who start with D&D to try other things at some point, especially if they find they aren’t having as much fun or if they are wanting a new genre to play in
I have a player in my group who is a computer engineer, and very much a rules are rules person. He'll ask "is that in the module?" or "Is that what the PHB or DMG says?" I run a mostly rules as written game, but smooth some things for time/ fun. At a certain point I just had a break game pause and said, "we're playing my version of D&D. I make or change all the rules any time I want. Do you trust me to run a fun game for you?" Haven't had a question since.
Excellent video. I often struggle with this when we are looking for new players. As a "Folk DM" I find myself always saying yes we play D&D, but...and then describing how our table is different from the official ruleset.
"Offical" does serve a role that you missed - playing with a group of acquaintances at the local FLGS, or anonymously over a VTT. When house rules and tweaks cannot be communicated before play, the GM really needs to stick to Rules as Written (RAW). This is especially true if people play competitively. If players often compete in Friday Night Magic or 40k tournaments, that competitive mindset definitely bleeds in and encourages Player vs Player, or Player vs GM attitudes. In groups like these, clear and concise "offical" rules are very much needed.
Yes. Clearly this video downplay what a good company like Paizo or Goodman Games bring to the hobby. And the first one is avaibility. Half the book tested on this channel are sold out the day after the review parution. Even OSE has months with no boxes avaible.
Even if we don't need Hasbro can we say the same about Kickstarter or DriveThruRpg ? As much has we love to brand ourself "indie" we don't have a self sufficient ecosystem.
I love OSR. I have no issue browsing dozens of kickstarter. I'm ok with waiting a year for an Hyperborea 3e KS and another year for my hardcover to be delivered. But that's not a consumer/beginner friendly hobby.
i run for a lot of Casuals or beginners. And I really hate when they ask "That was a cool game. I'd like to try to Gm it for my friends. Where can I get the book." and my only answer is "Errr... There might be a new Kickstarter soon...".
💯
As a DM with not enough time, I lean heavily on the eco-system for content and material. I follow the "official" D&D rules to be able to access 1st and 3rd party content easily and assume some semblance of balance. I feel I split the difference between the folk and official line. For my homegrown campaign, I pick and choose what I bring in that works for the world I am bringing in. I have my own pantheon, but magic, society, races all function in a fashion that meets the generic fantasy style. An Elf doesn't deviate much from what the Elf is in the PHB. As a result, I don't care about settings books, but Fizban's is way more important to me, as it allows me to selectively bring materials into my game. That only works if I'm keeping a certain amount of compatibility with the official rules (so I don't spend significant time converting/editing/etc).
My group stayed on 3.5, skipping 4, until 5. One of the issues we had was the SRD/OGL licensing issues. The above approach is something I feel like many DMs take, the need to selectively bring in compatible materials to their games. This includes 1st and 3rd party. If Onednd/6e (or what ever it becomes) moves away from supporting 3rd party content, and doesn't provide good content that can be selectively brought into a game, I won't touch it as an edition and simply stay on 5e.
While I sit on the edge of this folk/official style of play, it does concern me where WotC wishes to go, as is my access to an ecosystem dries up, it makes the hobby harder IMO.
I think you are among the biggest silent part of this community.
You could identify as "Folk" since selecting is technically homebrewing but you are honest with what WotC product brings to your game.
I hope players like you won't have to chose between an indie scene with a hudge barrier of entry and official WotC with life service monetization. It's hard when you don't have much time and wants to focus on playing.
You aren't alone buddy. I think most dms roll like this.
Very well thought out video from someone who has actual experience in what they are talking about. Top-notch content.
This is VERY well researched and written. Bravo sir.
I think the only thing to add is that Official D&D largely serves as the jumping off point into the folk d&d pool. The amount of marketing reach WotC has makes the entire folk DND ecosystem appear utterly insignificant. Million dollar kick-starters be damned, only a handful are ever able to cross the 10k backer threshold, and is infinitesimal when compared to 5e's 17 million players. These people are largely "de facto official" players who have grown tired of the ruleset and are just smart enough to Google "games that aren't DND" as opposed to exiting the hobby stage left. It's at this nexus these curious people find the tiny folk DND hobby.
But when WotC fails to attract new players to the hobby, the folk DND ecosystem, will fail to grow, even if that growth largely trails the WotC market by 3-5 years (the time it takes for defacto official players to burn out on official DND)
I guess another question is, how important it is for the hobby to grow? Is it important for the knitting hobby to grow? I feel like DnD is nearly at saturation when it comes to awareness. There's hardly anyone I meet who doesn't know what it is.
@@QuestingBeast You know, that's a fair point. It's definitely not 2012 anymore when I had to explain what D&D was to everybody
@@QuestingBeast I think we overestimate how easy it is for someone not familiar with the milieu to acquire a RPG when it's not in printed and in stores. I love all the stuff secondary creators publish on dtrpg or limited OSR products like Hot Spring Islands but they are not easy for this type of newcomers to come by. Wotc with an 'official' ruleset offers that type easy to identify, shared experience, product for new players and DM to share.
@@QuestingBeast To me the problem is more with people sticking to the rules like gospel rather building out of them. It's the negative side effect of wotc marketing that let you suppose that only 'official' DND is good for your games.
@@QuestingBeast With critical role getting stale, pandemic over, 5e out too long, the contraction is going to hurt.
I like how you presented this, I definitely think "folk" D&D is better and how it should be. Folk was I think the original philosophy and better.
I'm not quite sure I understand this new label. I don't know what it takes to be more "folk". So it's hard to say it's a good thing.
"That's not how any of this works!" LOL ok bro, well we're doing it anyway and it's wicked fun.
I think so many more tables participate in folk dnd than they realize, I work at an LGS and I get to talk to tons of DM’s/GM’s and a lot will refer to the new stuff being strong or weak and then how it might impact their games.. and then immediately homebrew it within our 30 minute conversation.
Yeah they cared about wotc impact but it was fleeting and now it’s their own thing, it’s what I love about this silly shared make-believe hobby we partake in
I genuinely hope this encourages D&D players to try out different tabletop RPGs entirely, not just D&D and variants like Pathfinder
There is one thing to consider about the effects of official D&D on folk D&D: communication. If you ever intend on playing/talking with other players, we will all speak a common language. The way the game is presented to the world affects how newcomers see the hobby and engage with it. Of course we can specify our own rules before the game but it is just important to recognize that out in the world, the common language we end up speaking is official D&D.
I would gently push back on this "common language" actually being an issue for concern.
Could this be a potential issue? Sure.
Should anyone really worry about? IMO, No.
My reasons for taking this stance: I have had the opportunity to GM for over 50+ new (to me) players and new (to the hobby) players this past 3 years. I have yet run into a "common language" issue you describe or anything similar. I just say, "Welcome to our D&D game, here is what you need to know to play. Make sure to double check the House Rules Document. Let have some fun." Goes off without a hitch every time.
Anyhow, reasonable minds can differ on the topic. All the best in your D&D Journey
@@Batterydennis Most ppl voice concern about One D&D playtest powercreep and WotC financial.firesidechat without drama. Sure the clickbait nature of TH-cam algorithm might makes you feel like we discuss the end of the hobby. But most video on the topic are pretty tame. Most just wish WotC focused more on Casual and beginner GM experience. The company is ignoring this crowd for years now. It's what the community excpect of them. The monetization isn't even the main issue (even if losing brain power on monetization when the the new product isn't even developed sounds hasty at best).
@@Batterydennis It's not an "issue for concern", it's just something that affects us. If you need to say "make sure to double check the house rules document", then you are running into this. In my experience, new players tend to either not read neither the official nor my house rules documents and just expect me to explain the rules as they come up, or they tend to ask a lot of questions to know all their options in order to plan ahead for their character builds so they know what to read. But the most affected are people that already play the game and are just now joining you, whatever character concept they might have had in mind could not be possible if you have too many house rules. Then again, none of that is a real problem, it's just something that affects us.
Today, other than writing your stuff on a pdf and email it to whoever you want, you can also decorate it with pretty pictures made with Stable Diffusion :)
To that, add that homebrewing your game is as much fun as it is to play.
@@ChristianIce And you need experiance and TIME to do that.
You are at a stage where the absence of a "common language "isn't a problem. A lot of us don't. No amount of "just ignore it, make your own fun like my 10+ years ongoing stable group does :)" will change that if you are a new DM with new players, in an environment with no experiance with ttrpgs, than stable official guidlines are needed before the groupe has enought experiance to know what works for them.
Absolute gold - thanks for communicating this
I jumped ship back in 2003 when after spending a couple hundred bucks buying the 3rd ed core books, they released 3.5 edition. I only had bought my books two years before. Five years later I discovered the OSR movement and that was that.
Ok, I really like "Folk DnD"
I'm in a third camp. What WotC does doesn't really have any effect on my table (unless they put out something worth stealing) but it does have an effect on the direction of the wider playerbase and potentially serve to drive more division while shifting cultural perception of the hobby. And in that regard, I am at least slightly concerned. I'll still have my table, my house rules and my fun, but any time I have to bring in a new player, I have to start *deprogramming* them of WotC's insanity, much like trying to deprogram someone from North Korea.
I think most DM with open table feel like you. You really have to plan to keep playing with the same friends for the next few years to be able to totaly ignore One D&D.
I would say the "Official" line, whatever it may be in any given year, provides a useful reference point for players to work from.
I've been trying to collate my thoughts on this exact dichotomy and I almost jumped out of my seat when you brought up the idea of "folk D&D." After studying the history of folklore collection in Europe, it made complete sense when I looked back on how D&D played into my life; my dad played AD&D back in the day then taught me and my brothers how to play, then I went on to run games for my brothers and friends and have been doing it since. It was very much like how tradition-bearers in Gaelic communities assumed the roles of storytellers after learning unconsciously from their fathers.
When comparing D&D folk communities to the "official" players, it goes one of two ways: first, where players take it for granted and don't really add much to it, using the rulesets much like they would with any other kind of game and see it more as a novelty or regular activity; second, there are those who take to the lifestyle brand and incorporate it into their identity like how someone who finds out their Scottish starts wearing kilts or buying as much Celtic jewelry as they can or post memes about Scotland as if to broadcast their supposed Scottish identity even if they did not grow up with it like how some people in the folk D&D camp might have.
The more I looked into D&D the more my interest in OSR grew and since Mörk Borg came out my heart has been sold to the devil!
Were you able to get a group together? Found Mork Borg a tough sell for my players
@@johnmickey5017 Yeah it helps when a corporation help you market the game to your friends... Pro tip : if it's not D&D you don't have to name the system (no brand recogntion) just say you host a RPG one shot.
@@Minodrec that’s a good tip… actually my first time playing Basic (or something basic-like) was in a pick-up bar game. The DM asked the group what edition we wanted, after we agreed to Basic, he just said “roll the dice I’ll tell you what happens.” Worked great, even though it sucked that I had a single spell 😂
At one point when 5e was still called next, the play test designers basically came out and said "Folk D&D is so strong that selling the game isn't really game design, it's just about not pissing the Folk crowd off enough that they leave."
In an unrelated interview I heard the claim "The designers play their own secret D&D that doesn't leak into the official designs, because they think it would schism the fan base to sympathize too loudly with any one group of Folk players."
Incredible video as always. Thanks Ben!
4:32 makes Gary Gygax sound like someone who's super fun at parties.
Thank you, I needed to hear this. I am firmly in the Folk-D&D camp, but have found myself getting increasingly irritated by how One D&D is shaping up as I follow it's development. In retrospect, this is pretty ridiculous considering I have been using a homebrew version of the game at my table for years, haven't touched "Official" D&D since the early days of 3.0, and have exactly Zero intention of playing One D&D when it is eventually released.
Why are you getting irritated? If it's changes will literally not effect you, then why even bother looking into it?
@@Biostasis5x7 what the f*** did I just say
I think Jorphdan made a good point in favor of "official DnD" on your last podcast in that "official DnD" modules give players a common experience they can share. Being able to share stories about your groups run through the Tomb of Horrors or Ravenloft adds a social element to the hobby that wouldn't exist otherwise. I even think this was the original plan with 5e with it's restrained approach to splat books and focus on adventure paths in the early years but WoTC pivoted sometime around 2019/2020. I find that unfortunate. Certainly other companies like Paizo and Goodman Games have been able to capitalize on this module focused business model.
Yes. To me that's the current "Law" part of the Hobby, mainly GoodmanGames and Paizo. It's great to share share with your community more than just the outline of a ruleset. You can easily play with more people. And there is a kind of dread after playing your homebrew knowing once your players leave the hobby you'll be alone to remember those adventures...
This is exactly what I have been trying to put into words when I describe whats happening in the DND scape to people outside. Thank you for this!
Another great video, Ben! Love the term "folk D&D" and yes this describes EXACTLY how I've always interacted with the game.
Fantastic work, thanks so much for making this one, I think a lot of people need to hear it. There is so much anger and fear swirling around that WoTC is going to ruin D&D with the next edition and/or going for microtransactions inside a walled garden but I keep telling folks we'll be fine. I am hopeful the new edition will be good so there's cool stuff for us to take and use, but if they do turn it into a lackluster videogame with subscriptions and loot crates (or whatever the worst case scenario is here,) we can still keep on doing what we've been doing. And if the worst does come to pass from the "official" Hasbro side, it might ignite a whole new revolution in the hobby. Sure we've had one Old School Renaissance, but what about Second Renaissance?
Well said and my own thoughts on the subject. WotC/Hasbro is going to do exactly what they've always done and it'll hit a ceiling and blow over. The actual 5.5/6e/whatever Playtest material actually speaks, mechanically, to a WotC design team that recognizes that they've courted a ton of new fans and are interested in iterating on ways to keep them playing based on what 5e players actually do and don't do, not just looking for whatever corners of the game itself can be hypermonetized. And even if they weren't, so what!? You can keep finding great new adventures and material very easily now. All D&D does is give the hobby a current centralized figure. It'll live with it, and it'll live without it.
I really like the term "Folk D&D" but "Law and Chaos" is funny. I definitely do not see the official rules as more real. I find it both off putting and disturbing, and a little funny that "Official" minded players seem to view complicated and cumbersome rules as more sophisticated and refined, and the absence of rules and relying on interpretation as inherently primitive. But at the same time anything that brings variety can be good if not great, including cumbersome rules at times. So I don't know if I always have a camp, but I definitely appreciate the Folk D&D tradition and the OSR more so as I get older.
Your analogy of “Folk D&D vs. Official D&D” is spot on.
Yes WotC is trying to make everyone pay for playing D&D, in my opinion. They’ll do this with D&D Beyond.
I think the influence Official dnd has on even more Folk dnd groups should not be underestimated.
As someone whos had the pleasure of running tons of different systems for many different games, all of them typically more obscure than dnd. I have noticed that people who were already experienced in dnd 5e would have more trouble grasping the rules.
What is worse, they would carry over the "bad habits" of the game they were already experienced in; always dnd. For example: in OSR games people would try to solve every encounter with engaging in mindless combat, in Apocalypse World and Dungeon World, these players would constantly disconnect themselves from the fiction and just call their move names instead of describing their actions and going from there. Meanwhile, fresh players got into the spirit of these games in the first session.
Experienced players get worse at adopting radically different ways to play, and as a result a group can get stuck in a rut. This isn't bad if the rut is still a decent game like 5e, but that could change in the future.
I for one imagine it would suck to play with people who go to every future dnd movie, buy the tons of DnD merch and do other things to make the DnD brand a core part of their identity.
Thank you for the folk player view, I think I needed that.
This is an excellent video. Great perspective.
I heard indie TTRPG designers say that 4e D&D and NOT 5e D&D was the best thing to happen to the indie TTRPG scene. While I like 4e D&D, I do think that not having WotC as THE 800 lb. Gorilla was actually healthier for the hobby and a lot of indie OSR and "narrative" games came out in this time or shortly after the earliest days of 5e when it was still new.
I would say 3.5 /d20 rule set was the best thing to happen to ttrpg’s.
My personal belief is that is is one of the best rule sets. 4E, 5E, and P2E are just diminishing variations.
@@Brian-px9gu I think that you are misunderstanding the argument being made when other TTRPG designers say that 4e was the best thing to happen to the indie TTRPG scene.
Absolutely agree. This is why i returned to tsr era d&d or osr games. I realized that what was lost from going from 2e to 3e and later versions, is what i really want from a d&d game.
The Advantage of Official D&D is that if you have new people come to your game then they can understand what is going on as it is something they need to learn all over again... A disadvantage of Folk D&D is the DM can either be a good DM or a not so good DM, you may cry "find another group" but usually in your local area there is not that many groups of people playing D&D and even less will play the Folk D&D that you want to join in with and most of the online circles all try to run as close to Official D&D of the most up to date edition making it the easiest and most accessable type of game to find for most people.
Official D&D's greatest weakness is the current holders of the brand who basically decide if the game is going to live or die and unfortunately the more successful a system gets the more corporate it gets and then it commits suicide via some stupid mistake... take Wizards of the Coast going from 3.5 to 4th Edition as a prime example, they screwed up so bad they created a new game Pathfinder that almost obliterated the D&D's basically monopoly on the market. If that is not enough also cast your eyes over at Games Workshops butchering of Warhammer 40k, even the strongest, most adamant fans are saying "The game can be fun... but if you play to win, then it is whoever has the most recent army is the one who wins. And if that is the same then Roll initiative to decide who wins." or something to that effect.
Official D&D is incredibly important for TTRPGs as it is the second highest factor that brings players into the market (just behind bullying in schools) and I think if the game is not looked after with care then Folk D&D will not survive to the next generation and I fear a low enough tide may sink all ships.
I agree with your points but not your conclusion. Paizo with PF2 is able to fill the institional role WotC play with D&D. Maybe not on the same scale but more than enough to secure an entry point to the hobby.
At work at the moment, but downloading now to listen to later.
Great video Ben. I can't echo this nearly enough.