I love the flavor on Lobelia. She shows up when you least expect it, presumably at the worst moment. No one wants to face her one-on-one. She rummages through your estate to grab all the shiny stuff she can grab. Perfect flavor win.
With the "sacrifice a Legendary Creature" ward on Sauron, I'm imagining something like this happening in lore: (Military Captain eyes Sauron uneasily) "You there, soldier, what's your name?" "Dave, sir!" "Well, Dave Soldier of Gondor, I have an important mission for you!" "You emphasized my name in a funny way there" "I don't know what you, Dave Soldier of Gondor, mean by that" (Dave watches as his name plate changes from Stalwart Soldier to Dave Soldier of Gondor) "Hey...."
@@tommydo4197 i did twice over the course of one night in my jund prerelase deck. i also got to put into play with the Doors Of Durin one time whcih was sweet.
@@tommydo4197I opened a borderless one in my pre-release and between the swarming of moria and the black saga that makes treasures chapter 2, there were a few. I also splashed green for Old Man Willow and I got some consistent mana reduction on my Balrog. It was super sweet
You can also sac food to Bill the Pony or other stuff to get it cheaper. Sure, three colors by that time but there are some options. Orc catapult helps, for instance.
Goldberry is a cute little engine but only in a very specific shell. LSV missed the interaction with Sagas (she's the wife of that 5 color saga guy, right?), where you can get another trigger of the same chapter of a saga on the next turn. It's balanced in that it has to tap twice until it is able to remove another counter from the same saga so it doesn't go "infinite". It's _CLEARLY_ designed with sagas in mind with +1/+1 counter upside. But if you get that 3 mana 1/4 that untaps up to two legendary creatures, this actually goes "infinite" with any saga.
Small addition to Sauron the Necromancer: It only matters that it's the Ringbearer at the end of the turn you create a token not when it attacks. So attacking and getting back a creature that turns Sauron into the Ringbearer or playing a tempting card post combat works just as fine. It's for example a very strong play to animate the scry Elrond that tempts when the second creature enters and then play a creature post combat to make Sauron the Ringbearer and keep Elrond around. From there it works as LSV said, if Sauron stops being the Ringbearer after the delayed trigger has resolved once, nothing happens to the token anymore.
44:00 Frodo can actually attack as a 1/2 and then do both the upgrades in one swing if you got the mana and the situation is so that a 2/3 could be blocked but a 1/2 could not.
Goldberry and sagas are nice too - like on a normal 3-level saga such as bath song, you can use the first 2 steps 5 times in total (3 x step 1 and 2 x step 2 or 2 x step 1 and 3 x step 2, depending on what you want) AND additionally draw 2-3 cards (depending on whether you draw the turn level 3 goes off) if Goldberry was in play (and not summoning sick) the turn you play the saga.
Something to note is that Fall of Gil-galad chapter 3 lets the targeted creatures fight ANY creature, not just one your opponent controls. This means, even if your opponent had no creatures (or just one really big one), you can just target a 1/1 dork you have laying and have it fight your 4/4 to get your two cards. Card is great.
I played in a privately hosted draft and picked Aragorn during pack 2 while I was mostly mono G. Afterward I tried to get as much fixing as possible (2 Great Halls, 2 Shire Terrace, 1 Wose Pathfinder, 1 Many Partings, 1 basic land cycler in B and R) and managed to play him on turn 4. Sidenote: it was a mono g rainbow deck since I was also splashing for the Balrog. I think with all those legendaries in this set Great Halls is better than it looks on paper.
In my first draft, first game, my opponent slammed Sauron the Dark Lord on turn 5 with help from treasure. I did not win that game, but I had a great time.
The One Ring gives you one card for one life, long as you use it every turn. Like Yawgmoth's Bargain or Necropotence, albeit with a hefty drawback of having to ramp up into the insane draws.
Horn of gondor is probably the biggest bomb in the set(as in its an actual bomb, unlike just about every other rare or mythic in this set). You don't need very much in terms of a deck to make your deck function with it, it basically is the deck, esquire of the king with it is really good. You'd pay 3 mana to bring back the recursive 1/1 in black, so you'd probably run this too. Artifact removal isn't plentiful enough to deal with it, you're basically praying you draw your westfold cavalier in time to deal with it. Your opponent can be someone just learning to play the game for the first time and they would be able to beat you if it goes unchecked, which it will. I've actually run the -1/-1 boardwipe in this set a few times, and pray i draw it but never do apparently. Its playable in other colors, but obviously white is its home. March of the ents has been more playable than it looks(can be discarded to ring temptation) and can oddly enough splash some of the other bombs you should have if you are green anyway.Not hard to get lands with the mana cyclers and wose pathfinder points you towards splash/ramp anyway.
It's a brutal card. From my experience, you always bury lands with the scry and if your opponent won't let you have a card they take a bunch of damage. They're done for in like 3-4 turns. Maybe it gets outpaced by red/white humans but it crushes slower archetypes and with some luck it can win you a game immediately. Flip a couple of 6-7 drops and that's nearly GG.
Great call that they didn't bring up there are quite a few fight spells that would help trigger it. The only thing is you would then have to be green and red/green Is very creature heavy so every spell kind of needs to build around it.
The Balrog is a 5-mana spell if you have a Treasure. Swarming of Moria is common and it's something you want to play in red decks already. Just saying.
Curious to get opinions on the +/- rating. Would it serve to have the (+) rating for cards you actively seek multiples. And the (-) rating for cards you want at most one (diminishing returns).
Another element of goldberry is that you can use it for infinite value with any saga that has a good chapter 1 or 2. I learned about that interaction from being hosed by goldberry and scroll of isildur.
Though there aren't great ways to find those lands, and they make your mana worse in the games where you don't see Aragorn. Though I think the scry deck can probably make it work. Between scrying to find both Aragorn and cards that will help cast it, plus the terrace, landcyclers, and maybe the great hall, I think you can get there.
Frodo, saurons bane is busted in limited. You can hold up his ability and keep him as a 1/2 making him basically unblockable, have a few tempts in your deck and you win.
I love Saruman's design. I'll admit I had to pause for a second on first read to double check what "that spell" was referring to, and if the chosen card had to be from the milled cards, but only for a few seconds. It's fringe design and I welcome it with open arms. 19 years in this game - simple "draw a card, ramp some stuff" effects can be ok but they are a far cry from being exciting anymore - this is. I think there was a bit too much exaggerated hyperbole around them "not understanding the card". It took me 5 seconds to understand this card when it was spoiled and 15 to realise it was one of the cards from the set I might want to build around. A first time prereleaser has about no chance to execute the trigger/reflexive trigger correctly their first go; neither of these two are close to a first timer.
And they seem to forget cards generally do what you think they are trying to do. Once I got to the part about instants, sorceries and enchantments, which also matches the Ward cost, it became obvious it's about stealing their spells.
I mean Jesus Christ I would hope you understand the card if you have been playing for 20 years - which is easy for LSV too. But you missed the point entirely, the text is rambunctious and definitely not clear to the naked eye. If you have to ELI5 to a beginner that is not going to attract many new comers, and trust me magic cares more about bringing in new people than keeping the attention of 20 year vets - they know you will always come back. For someone who knew the card so clearly, you got /whooshed on everything else.
@@gaspermilitello7838 I didn't make any objective statements about this card/newcomers/design, other than that yes, a first timer would not be able to do it correctly. I said that 1) I personally loved the card and it excited me 2) These two are professionals whose job it is to basically understand cards - and I believed that they too greatly exaggerated their own inability to understand.
@@peisenxu952 That's the thing. LSV also brought up Marshall's experience with the game, and yet it feels like there's always pretty obvious interactions or play patterns he misses in every set review.
@@peisenxu952 The card is just badly worded xD Its just very unclean and ugly, which is a big blunder for a design team that has been making cards for over 20 years. You would expect peak quality from this team. Doesnt matter if you think its cool or like saruman, its bad.
Tl;dr: This card can actively make you lose the game. Cards that give your opponents options (especially if one of them is terrible) frequently aren't good. In the LRR PPR Cameron cast this in his last game and it absolutely goozled him when he kept setting up his scrys to draw the lands he needed and Kathleen milled them away for 0 damage and ripping lands out of his deck. And that was with her usually announcing prior to his scrys that she was intending to mill him. I've only lost to it twice out of 7 games I've seen it and it lost my opponent the game twice out of those 7. I milled an opponent out twice when they played it against me, once from all the extra draw and once by just cramming enough food down my gullet to mill so many cards. I believe I've only seen it help my opponent win a game he wouldn't have without it exactly one time. I agree it's powerful, but it's floor is "causes you to lose the game by playing it", which also means it can never, ever be an A level card. Probably isn't a B level card either. It's an easier cast Phyrexian arena most of the time and that's just a C+ maybe B- card in limited because it doesn't affect the board.
@@markbrierley6367 That seems like a misplay on Cameron's part tbh. With the topdeck control it gives you, IMO you always bury your lands so that it threatens your opponent with a bunch of damage if they don't give you the draw. I can't say as I've seen the game in question but it seems like a good card used incorrectly. Doing some quick math, it will have milled you for this many cards after each turn: 1 after 1, 3 after 2, 6 after 3, 10 after 4, 15 after 5, and 21 after 6 turns. On the 7th turn I'm pretty sure it finishes milling a player out after 28 cards as a 40-card deck less 7 from initial draw and then 8+ turns of draw only leaves 25 cards in deck. However, what's the expected mana value of a Limited deck? When there's a bunch of 4+ mana cards in a deck AND the player can put lands at the bottom, it's a lethal threat after 3-4 cards. Picking 'mill' over draw, if you've taken any damage at all, is risking losing the game on the spot. Getting slammed for 7 because they milled away some big common is going to end a game real fast.
This set is such a win. Played a bunch of drafts over the weekend with the LOTR soundtrack going in the background. The flavor & design literally cannot get better than this. Tolkien invents high fantasy - Garfield, inspired by Tolkien, invents MTG - WOTC creates a set taking full advantage of both of those genius-lvl designs. The creative / synergy feedback loop here is off the charts. This feels like a victory for our entire popular culture.
@@HowardFlint-cc7ry for sure. But like MTG, the game, is a direct reaction to Tolkien’s world-building, his love of language, his imagination, and his aesthetic choices. Like, all fantasy… stuff… comes from Tolkien. All of it. He invented the idea itself, and filled it so expertly. So when one of those creations (MTG) then pays homage to the creator, the thru-lines are just perfect. A sort of creative ouroboros in the best possible way, and realized such that we can interact with it, and have fun with it in ways that just aren’t possible via literature or video. This whole thing is just such a home run, creatively, and for fans of either (& especially both) LOTR & MTG. The design here is perhaps the most pure expression possible within this game.
Hard disagree. None of the decks except Nazgul spam plays thematically accurate, the color pie is massively abused this set, the cards that aren't pushed like the Lidless Eye variant are just plain bad and despite being made FOR draft the set doesn't actually feature enough synergy (unless you're playung Nazgul spam) to play faction decks because that orc captain has just as much synergy in the R/W Rohan deck as as the shire sheriff. Goblins don't feature despite being like an entire faction, Uruks apparently just don't exist, Isengard isn't a faction apparently and ddspite castles and forts being a big part of the franchise (notably they're very based off of the trenches of WW1 and very well designed) there's literally 0 Wall type creatures. For every flavor victory like Shadowfax or the Lidless Eye variant there's an absolutely disgusting flavor fail like 0 archers in Rohan, 0 equipment synergies for Gondor and Mordor goes too tall. If you're inclined to be upset about literally every villain being reskinned to whitey and every notable heroic character being turned darkie then you have that to be upset about too. Also there's Battle's, that should VERY much have been a card type in the set for several reasons and the most flavorful being turning it into a pseudo RTS.
@@roccodemaro4305I would have preffered my horse archers to actually be horse archers rather than a bad R/W equipment and token deck, but sure. "Home run."
@@iBloodxHunter Really respect your obvious love of LOTR, man. And clearly you’ve got some reps on the format. I’d only offer that expectations play a role in how we perceive anything qualitative. Like, it’s hard for me to imagine them getting any closer to a 10/10 on this project given all the complexity in the literature & the challenges that come in a real-world workflow for a publicly traded company. Perhaps if they had triple the time or budget to throw at the set, it could be a meaningful % better. I dunno. Personally, I’m floored with how well they’ve done here.
I died so many times after being tempted by the One Ring (so in a way, perfect flavor), even with strong food support, I never had enough mana to cast all my drawn cards (and eventually pay for eating the food to survive) with a clock of 3 life loss per turn. The build with Improvised Club looks much better though, haven't got the chance to play it yet, but looking forward to giving it a try whenever I can !
TH-cam keeps automodding my comment because I accidentally deleted it instead of editing and it thinks I'm spamming now because of similarity or something. 1:35:00 is not the case. That part of the ability is a delayed trigger created during the resolution of the first ability. It uses the stack at the preordained time and checks information as it resolves like any other triggered ability. This is already under Sauron's entry in Gatherer.
I really don't get their contempt for anything mentioning Equipment. Sure it's not a major set theme, but there's enough decent equipment in this set that a few rares can care about them and it be fine. It's not like it's some build around that has no interaction with the rest of the set. It would be weirder if a LOTR set didn't have anything related to weapons and legendary objects.
I have really appreciated the core set+ vibes of this and even the dnd sets previously. I think core sets are a nice pallette cleanser after all the other sets.
13:40 - display of power lets you copy your opponents spells as well, it certainly raises the letter grade to something closer to a D+/C-, it's not a stone F 1:46:30 - cost reduction on balrog most relevant with treasures, each one effectively paying for 2 mana. In RB it's easy to cast the balrog on turn 5
1:49:19 the first ability becomes relevant when 3 of your dudes die in a turn. Gimli turns into a 6/5 and he axes someone for 6, without fear of death. Unless you're saying that you'd never get to fight... but then why single out the first ability at all without the actual fight ability?
I'm glad people are getting on the "equipment is trash" train, it has been this way for years and years. Most of the good ones in recent memory come with a creature attached (living weapon, For Mirrodin!, etc.) or equip for free (bladed battle fan). I wish they would go to that well more often.
Equipment is one of the best card types in the game xD A permanent buff that can only be removed by specific removal is crazy, it has insane synergy pieces, is the focus of multiple decks in multiple formats AND regularly delivers flavor hits with named weapons/gadgets from lore.
what i love about the one ring is that its 100% voluntary to start the burden counters. If you just play it and never use it its harmless, very cool flavor
I love that the best way to deal with the burden of the world's most powerful magical artefact is to scarf down croissants and bacon as fast as you can
@@ScottofOaklandWell frodo is actively wearing it though. The flavor of not using the card is like simply owning it but having it locked away in your shelf for 40 years. Flavor still on point with the card design
@@benfrenchman tbf brewers are already showing the best way to mitigate the eldritch influence of this artifact forged by a demigod to subjugate every living being is to just twiddle it 20 times and win
Shelob makes tokens that keep their ETBs and activated abilities so if they chump with the wrong creature you can absolutely punish them for it. (Me who chumped with a wose pathfinder during pre-release)
"Saruman of Many Colors" references my favorite scene from the book, and I was happy to see a card made of it. It's one PJ cut from the movies, like he did for most of Saruman's scenes, where Saruman rants to Gandalf, the gist of the speech being that he had made a ring of his own and no longer saw himself as the leader of the White Council, but as having dominion over all things, all "colors" as white can be fractured into a prisim. It makes me sad that WotC both missed the opportunity to make it a WUBRG and made the card offputtingly confusing.
Saruman at that point in his story could not be less Green; he's turned against the natural order in a massive way, forsaken wisdom (green) for artifice (blue) and destroying the Entwood. Arguably he could be red (impulsive) but he's also kinda heartless and cruel, and he doesn't do anything particularly red.
Drafting two Gandalf and a Saruman, followed by two Flame of Arnor is the most disgusting thing I've ever done in a game. You can feel your opponents soul leave their body.
12:56 Too harsh on Display on Power IMO. You can copy other player's spells, so there's that too. In that sense, it can also function as a counter to the counter of an opponent. Not really an F, not an A either ofc. C- -ish maybe? Bordering on D+?
You can. It's pretty versatile - you can use it on your big creature to beat down an opponent's creature, or on a mid creature to trade + 2 cards, or if that's not available just (effectively) sacrifice some little dork/token/whatever to draw 2. If your opponent has literally nothing on the board, sure - you can fight your own thing and lose for two cards. Not ideal but gets cards.
I loved the prerelease of this set. Super synergistic and feels good. Definitely might be biased because of the flavor/LotR theme but I'll be drafting this a ton!
One of the worst prereleases of all time. I guess over 80% of matches going so long they end in a draw is a blast to you, but dont encourage more of this food stuff please lol
Btw, this is absolutely a 3-color set. Lots of ways to help with fixing, even if it’s not land-based fixing. The legendaries are strong enough that I almost always end up splashing into a 3rd color
I concur. 1 mana land cyclers make splashing incredibly easy. You have to pick them a little earlier in draft to guarantee a safe splash, but it is well worth being able to play a half off color uncommon or rare. Also wizards rockets is the GOAT
@@bblivid of note, since they were very dismissive of it and didn't take time to go into it, he doesn't actually make you the controller of the equipment, he just attaches it to himself, so when your opponent's turn comes around they can still activate the Equip ability and put it back on their creature. Also, since the controller of the equipment doesn't change, the effects of that equipment matter. If you control Shagrat and steal the opponent's Glamdring and then hit them, Glamdring's triggered ability will let the opponent cast a spell, since the "you" on Glamdring refers to the controller of the sword, not Shagrat.
@@Mordalon It does still get indestructible when it steals mythril or other power/toughness buffs though which is pretty good for a turn. Especially if it was already equipped to an opponent's creature.
I like how they asked if there was a combo with Sting and we literally just saw the Watcher in the Water. Sure it's magical Christmas land, but he asked if there were any.
The only good thing about Sauruman of Many Colors is the editing break in the middle of trying to explain what the heck it does. That part I found highly engaging!
A+ on LSV's mini rant @2:20:39. Simpler card design is fine. I hate (both on Arena or at the LGS) having to re-read a paragraph with multiple clauses to understand one game piece.
It's really not that bad. They blame the whole card when only one part of the text is a big ambiguous. Also, there is a difference between verbosity and complexity. Cards can be wordy but play simply, while some can be easy to read but have unintuitive gameplay interactions.
As a long time casual MtG player in paper (pre any digital magic) and a long time Tolkien (read LOTR once a year). Although an Arena player from beta I lost the passion for MtG. The power creep and ‘grind’ left me drained. I parked playing and also following decent content providers. Flavour wise AFR in recent years brought me back (AD&D fuelled by a love of Tolkien’s work the heart & soul of that. In reality I was spending too much time on MtG. We all know it can be a real time thief. So playing and watching content took a back seat. With LOTR being such an iconic release I wanted to find good content creators I knew and respected create a decent and measured set review. Let me say your two episodes covering the set are by some margin the best I have found. The banter and discussion between the two of you and of course the reasoning and insights for rating were well discussed. Thanks for rekindling the passion again for MtG. For the first time since AFR I am investing (buying) this set in paper (to play of course). I plan to also follow and support your content. There are a lot of prolific and professional MTG content creators of course but yours is highly enjoyable. 🦑 🐉 SquiderDragon
I'm out of this set. The artwork is a huge miss and thematically is terrible, which is a huge part of the lore. They've made LOTR fit MTG instead of what should've been the other way round.
It's supposed to be a functional set, forcing too much flavor over function would just make it nice to look at but terrible to actually play with. R&D learned this lesson a long time ago.
@@ich3730 Aragorn because of course I'm a huge racist who really, really hates all black people which can't exist in Tolkien, except for the ones that already exist in Tolkien, they're alright I suppose. I shake my head every fucking time, it's pathetic. And that bloody sword of his that comes straight from some half arsed computer game RPG.
I completely agree with Luis's take on Saruman of Many Colors. The card is completely illegible. The card looks insanely over-designed. The templating is terrible and very hard to follow. The cognitive load of the game is already high enough with modern design. Making cards compelling enough to play doesn't have to come at the detriment of legibility.
Dude, the ads are OUT OF CONTROL for this video. Seriously they're like every 3 minutes. Makes these videos damn near unwatchable to be interrupted my a commercial over and over and over.
It's a mythic. I get the effect it's going for, the only weird part is the "this spell" and what it refers to is separated enough that it is hard to track.
@@ich3730 As I said, the card is called "orcish bowmasters" plural. Legolas the individual beats a group of orchish bowmasters. The rare Legolas is tough enough to survive and beat the bowmasters, the only reason they bowmasters are "better' is because their ability is easier to utilize, while Legolas need to be built around more. So basically there are two different metrics being measured here. It's just like when a big splashy faction leader is mechanically powerful, but doesn't see competitive play compared to a rare nameless creature that is less splashy but competitively costed.
This is the Rare and Mythic review. The commons and uncommons aren't that verbose. Also, there's a difference between being wordy and playing complexity, you can have one and not the other.
@@ScottofOakland I was literally just stating that they aren't that bad and that there's more than one type of complexity. It's not my fault you got personally offended by someone disagreeing with you.
![[UNCUT] The Loyal Pin ปิ่นภักดิ์ EP.6 (1/4)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/m05kZ2GDKXg/mqdefault.jpg)
Sacrificing Smaug with Mirkwood Bats in play was the highlight of my prerelease.
When you were discussing passing the one ring I couldn't help but think "After All, Why Not? Why Shouldn't I Keep It?"
I love the flavor on Lobelia. She shows up when you least expect it, presumably at the worst moment. No one wants to face her one-on-one. She rummages through your estate to grab all the shiny stuff she can grab. Perfect flavor win.
With the "sacrifice a Legendary Creature" ward on Sauron, I'm imagining something like this happening in lore:
(Military Captain eyes Sauron uneasily) "You there, soldier, what's your name?"
"Dave, sir!"
"Well, Dave Soldier of Gondor, I have an important mission for you!"
"You emphasized my name in a funny way there"
"I don't know what you, Dave Soldier of Gondor, mean by that"
(Dave watches as his name plate changes from Stalwart Soldier to Dave Soldier of Gondor) "Hey...."
Card discussion starts at 8:00
Love the show!
Thanks G.
Balrog counts treasures for the sac outlet. Seems like neither Marshal nor LSV realized that.
How many treasure generators are in the set outside of rare and mythic?
@@tommydo4197 i did twice over the course of one night in my jund prerelase deck. i also got to put into play with the Doors Of Durin one time whcih was sweet.
@@tommydo4197 Swarming of Moria is the big one, but there's a few other uncommons (Bilbo, Oath of the Grey Host)
@@tommydo4197I opened a borderless one in my pre-release and between the swarming of moria and the black saga that makes treasures chapter 2, there were a few. I also splashed green for Old Man Willow and I got some consistent mana reduction on my Balrog. It was super sweet
You can also sac food to Bill the Pony or other stuff to get it cheaper. Sure, three colors by that time but there are some options. Orc catapult helps, for instance.
Goldberry is a cute little engine but only in a very specific shell.
LSV missed the interaction with Sagas (she's the wife of that 5 color saga guy, right?), where you can get another trigger of the same chapter of a saga on the next turn. It's balanced in that it has to tap twice until it is able to remove another counter from the same saga so it doesn't go "infinite". It's _CLEARLY_ designed with sagas in mind with +1/+1 counter upside. But if you get that 3 mana 1/4 that untaps up to two legendary creatures, this actually goes "infinite" with any saga.
Small addition to Sauron the Necromancer: It only matters that it's the Ringbearer at the end of the turn you create a token not when it attacks. So attacking and getting back a creature that turns Sauron into the Ringbearer or playing a tempting card post combat works just as fine. It's for example a very strong play to animate the scry Elrond that tempts when the second creature enters and then play a creature post combat to make Sauron the Ringbearer and keep Elrond around.
From there it works as LSV said, if Sauron stops being the Ringbearer after the delayed trigger has resolved once, nothing happens to the token anymore.
44:00 Frodo can actually attack as a 1/2 and then do both the upgrades in one swing if you got the mana and the situation is so that a 2/3 could be blocked but a 1/2 could not.
Goldberry and sagas are nice too - like on a normal 3-level saga such as bath song, you can use the first 2 steps 5 times in total (3 x step 1 and 2 x step 2 or 2 x step 1 and 3 x step 2, depending on what you want) AND additionally draw 2-3 cards (depending on whether you draw the turn level 3 goes off) if Goldberry was in play (and not summoning sick) the turn you play the saga.
Something to note is that Fall of Gil-galad chapter 3 lets the targeted creatures fight ANY creature, not just one your opponent controls. This means, even if your opponent had no creatures (or just one really big one), you can just target a 1/1 dork you have laying and have it fight your 4/4 to get your two cards. Card is great.
I played in a privately hosted draft and picked Aragorn during pack 2 while I was mostly mono G. Afterward I tried to get as much fixing as possible (2 Great Halls, 2 Shire Terrace, 1 Wose Pathfinder, 1 Many Partings, 1 basic land cycler in B and R) and managed to play him on turn 4.
Sidenote: it was a mono g rainbow deck since I was also splashing for the Balrog. I think with all those legendaries in this set Great Halls is better than it looks on paper.
Goldberry can be used to repeat certain steps on a saga and ramp others
Yup, she works well with Tom Bombadil ❤
“Press the Enemy” has a floor of “destroy target army” in this format.
In my first draft, first game, my opponent slammed Sauron the Dark Lord on turn 5 with help from treasure. I did not win that game, but I had a great time.
The One Ring gives you one card for one life, long as you use it every turn. Like Yawgmoth's Bargain or Necropotence, albeit with a hefty drawback of having to ramp up into the insane draws.
Horn of gondor is probably the biggest bomb in the set(as in its an actual bomb, unlike just about every other rare or mythic in this set). You don't need very much in terms of a deck to make your deck function with it, it basically is the deck, esquire of the king with it is really good. You'd pay 3 mana to bring back the recursive 1/1 in black, so you'd probably run this too. Artifact removal isn't plentiful enough to deal with it, you're basically praying you draw your westfold cavalier in time to deal with it. Your opponent can be someone just learning to play the game for the first time and they would be able to beat you if it goes unchecked, which it will. I've actually run the -1/-1 boardwipe in this set a few times, and pray i draw it but never do apparently. Its playable in other colors, but obviously white is its home.
March of the ents has been more playable than it looks(can be discarded to ring temptation) and can oddly enough splash some of the other bombs you should have if you are green anyway.Not hard to get lands with the mana cyclers and wose pathfinder points you towards splash/ramp anyway.
Display of Power is useful if you cast a spell and they counter it. You copy their counter to counter it and then copy your original spell.
Or if your opponent plays a spell then you play a cheap spell and copy both of them it's better than they said I'm pretty aure
There's no negate in this set. How often are you expecting your instant and sorceries to be countered?
@@seanmurphy3430 there is an uncommon cancel.
@@Mordalon My point stands.
@@seanmurphy3430 The person you responded to wasn't saying it was going to happen all the time every game.
Can confirm the One Ring is amazing, had 4 improvised club in a Naya deck, lots of food tokens are good fodder
I was lucky enough to play with Palantir of Orthanc. it's and A and won me every game I saw it.
It's a brutal card. From my experience, you always bury lands with the scry and if your opponent won't let you have a card they take a bunch of damage. They're done for in like 3-4 turns. Maybe it gets outpaced by red/white humans but it crushes slower archetypes and with some luck it can win you a game immediately. Flip a couple of 6-7 drops and that's nearly GG.
Fall of Cair Andros goes crazy with Breaking of the Fellowship and all the green fight/bite spells. They count as non-combat damage.
Great call that they didn't bring up there are quite a few fight spells that would help trigger it. The only thing is you would then have to be green and red/green Is very creature heavy so every spell kind of needs to build around it.
The Balrog is a 5-mana spell if you have a Treasure. Swarming of Moria is common and it's something you want to play in red decks already. Just saying.
Yeah I was really surprised they didn’t think about treasures here. If you somehow had 2 treasures out you cast it off 3 lands which is insane
Curious to get opinions on the +/- rating. Would it serve to have the (+) rating for cards you actively seek multiples. And the (-) rating for cards you want at most one (diminishing returns).
Another element of goldberry is that you can use it for infinite value with any saga that has a good chapter 1 or 2. I learned about that interaction from being hosed by goldberry and scroll of isildur.
I can't wait for an opponent to ramp into Fangore into last march of the ents and put 7 creatures in play against me.
I really don't understand Lost Isle Calling. Why would they make a card with an add verse effect?
Aragorn isn't that hard to cast if you have Great Hall of the Citadel which is a common.
Though there aren't great ways to find those lands, and they make your mana worse in the games where you don't see Aragorn.
Though I think the scry deck can probably make it work. Between scrying to find both Aragorn and cards that will help cast it, plus the terrace, landcyclers, and maybe the great hall, I think you can get there.
Rangers of Ithillien must be hilarious when you steal their ringbearer
Great episode as always boys! My dog also digs through every bed I have ever gotten him. I feel your pain LSV!
Do treasure tokens 'pay' 2 mana when casting balrog?
Yep
Frodo, saurons bane is busted in limited. You can hold up his ability and keep him as a 1/2 making him basically unblockable, have a few tempts in your deck and you win.
I had nice experiences with Press the enemy as a combat trick in dimir (with a sorcery Amass spell for example)
I love Saruman's design. I'll admit I had to pause for a second on first read to double check what "that spell" was referring to, and if the chosen card had to be from the milled cards, but only for a few seconds. It's fringe design and I welcome it with open arms. 19 years in this game - simple "draw a card, ramp some stuff" effects can be ok but they are a far cry from being exciting anymore - this is. I think there was a bit too much exaggerated hyperbole around them "not understanding the card". It took me 5 seconds to understand this card when it was spoiled and 15 to realise it was one of the cards from the set I might want to build around. A first time prereleaser has about no chance to execute the trigger/reflexive trigger correctly their first go; neither of these two are close to a first timer.
And they seem to forget cards generally do what you think they are trying to do. Once I got to the part about instants, sorceries and enchantments, which also matches the Ward cost, it became obvious it's about stealing their spells.
I mean Jesus Christ I would hope you understand the card if you have been playing for 20 years - which is easy for LSV too. But you missed the point entirely, the text is rambunctious and definitely not clear to the naked eye. If you have to ELI5 to a beginner that is not going to attract many new comers, and trust me magic cares more about bringing in new people than keeping the attention of 20 year vets - they know you will always come back. For someone who knew the card so clearly, you got /whooshed on everything else.
@@gaspermilitello7838 I didn't make any objective statements about this card/newcomers/design, other than that yes, a first timer would not be able to do it correctly. I said that 1) I personally loved the card and it excited me 2) These two are professionals whose job it is to basically understand cards - and I believed that they too greatly exaggerated their own inability to understand.
@@peisenxu952 That's the thing. LSV also brought up Marshall's experience with the game, and yet it feels like there's always pretty obvious interactions or play patterns he misses in every set review.
@@peisenxu952 The card is just badly worded xD Its just very unclean and ugly, which is a big blunder for a design team that has been making cards for over 20 years. You would expect peak quality from this team. Doesnt matter if you think its cool or like saruman, its bad.
There and Back Again is red because they go to the Lonely Mountain
it's also about literally stealing treasure with a bunch of dwarves.
I had palantir in a sealed deck and I easily won every game I cast it. I give it B+/ A-.
Tl;dr: This card can actively make you lose the game.
Cards that give your opponents options (especially if one of them is terrible) frequently aren't good.
In the LRR PPR Cameron cast this in his last game and it absolutely goozled him when he kept setting up his scrys to draw the lands he needed and Kathleen milled them away for 0 damage and ripping lands out of his deck. And that was with her usually announcing prior to his scrys that she was intending to mill him.
I've only lost to it twice out of 7 games I've seen it and it lost my opponent the game twice out of those 7. I milled an opponent out twice when they played it against me, once from all the extra draw and once by just cramming enough food down my gullet to mill so many cards.
I believe I've only seen it help my opponent win a game he wouldn't have without it exactly one time. I agree it's powerful, but it's floor is "causes you to lose the game by playing it", which also means it can never, ever be an A level card. Probably isn't a B level card either. It's an easier cast Phyrexian arena most of the time and that's just a C+ maybe B- card in limited because it doesn't affect the board.
@@markbrierley6367 That seems like a misplay on Cameron's part tbh. With the topdeck control it gives you, IMO you always bury your lands so that it threatens your opponent with a bunch of damage if they don't give you the draw. I can't say as I've seen the game in question but it seems like a good card used incorrectly.
Doing some quick math, it will have milled you for this many cards after each turn: 1 after 1, 3 after 2, 6 after 3, 10 after 4, 15 after 5, and 21 after 6 turns. On the 7th turn I'm pretty sure it finishes milling a player out after 28 cards as a 40-card deck less 7 from initial draw and then 8+ turns of draw only leaves 25 cards in deck. However, what's the expected mana value of a Limited deck?
When there's a bunch of 4+ mana cards in a deck AND the player can put lands at the bottom, it's a lethal threat after 3-4 cards. Picking 'mill' over draw, if you've taken any damage at all, is risking losing the game on the spot. Getting slammed for 7 because they milled away some big common is going to end a game real fast.
about the balrog use treasures each one pay for 2 mana to cast it
Can you imagine flashing in the one ring via gandalf to counter the 4 mana thoughtseize thing lol
This set is such a win. Played a bunch of drafts over the weekend with the LOTR soundtrack going in the background. The flavor & design literally cannot get better than this. Tolkien invents high fantasy - Garfield, inspired by Tolkien, invents MTG - WOTC creates a set taking full advantage of both of those genius-lvl designs.
The creative / synergy feedback loop here is off the charts. This feels like a victory for our entire popular culture.
BRAND synergy, which isn't a bad word, when the brands are so badass
@@HowardFlint-cc7ry for sure. But like MTG, the game, is a direct reaction to Tolkien’s world-building, his love of language, his imagination, and his aesthetic choices. Like, all fantasy… stuff… comes from Tolkien. All of it. He invented the idea itself, and filled it so expertly. So when one of those creations (MTG) then pays homage to the creator, the thru-lines are just perfect. A sort of creative ouroboros in the best possible way, and realized such that we can interact with it, and have fun with it in ways that just aren’t possible via literature or video.
This whole thing is just such a home run, creatively, and for fans of either (& especially both) LOTR & MTG. The design here is perhaps the most pure expression possible within this game.
Hard disagree. None of the decks except Nazgul spam plays thematically accurate, the color pie is massively abused this set, the cards that aren't pushed like the Lidless Eye variant are just plain bad and despite being made FOR draft the set doesn't actually feature enough synergy (unless you're playung Nazgul spam) to play faction decks because that orc captain has just as much synergy in the R/W Rohan deck as as the shire sheriff. Goblins don't feature despite being like an entire faction, Uruks apparently just don't exist, Isengard isn't a faction apparently and ddspite castles and forts being a big part of the franchise (notably they're very based off of the trenches of WW1 and very well designed) there's literally 0 Wall type creatures.
For every flavor victory like Shadowfax or the Lidless Eye variant there's an absolutely disgusting flavor fail like 0 archers in Rohan, 0 equipment synergies for Gondor and Mordor goes too tall.
If you're inclined to be upset about literally every villain being reskinned to whitey and every notable heroic character being turned darkie then you have that to be upset about too.
Also there's Battle's, that should VERY much have been a card type in the set for several reasons and the most flavorful being turning it into a pseudo RTS.
@@roccodemaro4305I would have preffered my horse archers to actually be horse archers rather than a bad R/W equipment and token deck, but sure. "Home run."
@@iBloodxHunter Really respect your obvious love of LOTR, man. And clearly you’ve got some reps on the format. I’d only offer that expectations play a role in how we perceive anything qualitative. Like, it’s hard for me to imagine them getting any closer to a 10/10 on this project given all the complexity in the literature & the challenges that come in a real-world workflow for a publicly traded company. Perhaps if they had triple the time or budget to throw at the set, it could be a meaningful % better. I dunno. Personally, I’m floored with how well they’ve done here.
So far mithril coat the f performed like an a+for me. Giving something permanent indestructible is so strong with a strong legendary
we are so back
I died so many times after being tempted by the One Ring (so in a way, perfect flavor), even with strong food support, I never had enough mana to cast all my drawn cards (and eventually pay for eating the food to survive) with a clock of 3 life loss per turn.
The build with Improvised Club looks much better though, haven't got the chance to play it yet, but looking forward to giving it a try whenever I can !
Watching this for the second time now as I make a LOTR set cube!
as a new dad, the sign off was great lol
"Halfling Horror" typeline on Smeagol seems cruel. Imagine if you got a card made of you and you got a Horror creature type...
TH-cam keeps automodding my comment because I accidentally deleted it instead of editing and it thinks I'm spamming now because of similarity or something. 1:35:00 is not the case. That part of the ability is a delayed trigger created during the resolution of the first ability. It uses the stack at the preordained time and checks information as it resolves like any other triggered ability. This is already under Sauron's entry in Gatherer.
+1 for LSV doing the You Can Not not Pass pun.
I really don't get their contempt for anything mentioning Equipment. Sure it's not a major set theme, but there's enough decent equipment in this set that a few rares can care about them and it be fine. It's not like it's some build around that has no interaction with the rest of the set. It would be weirder if a LOTR set didn't have anything related to weapons and legendary objects.
I have really appreciated the core set+ vibes of this and even the dnd sets previously. I think core sets are a nice pallette cleanser after all the other sets.
My prerelease was so frustrating. Round 1 my opponent had Andruil in both games and in Round 2 my opponent had the Horn and Theoden both games.
13:40 - display of power lets you copy your opponents spells as well, it certainly raises the letter grade to something closer to a D+/C-, it's not a stone F
1:46:30 - cost reduction on balrog most relevant with treasures, each one effectively paying for 2 mana. In RB it's easy to cast the balrog on turn 5
Marshall saying "what format does someone have an artifact to steal" makes it clear he's never played a game of commander lol.
Wow, I played sauroman of many colors wrong during prerelease
It's pretty funny that Sauron loses to Lembas Bread.
1:49:19 the first ability becomes relevant when 3 of your dudes die in a turn. Gimli turns into a 6/5 and he axes someone for 6, without fear of death. Unless you're saying that you'd never get to fight... but then why single out the first ability at all without the actual fight ability?
I'm glad people are getting on the "equipment is trash" train, it has been this way for years and years. Most of the good ones in recent memory come with a creature attached (living weapon, For Mirrodin!, etc.) or equip for free (bladed battle fan). I wish they would go to that well more often.
Plenty of recent rare equipment is good without those things.
Equipment is one of the best card types in the game xD A permanent buff that can only be removed by specific removal is crazy, it has insane synergy pieces, is the focus of multiple decks in multiple formats AND regularly delivers flavor hits with named weapons/gadgets from lore.
I had Last March of the Ents played against me and got the full blowout. They had one creature, and I had 6 mana up. I won that game.
Why did they skip a bunch of cards? Galadriel gift giver, assault on osgiliath, fires of mount doom and Gollum scheming guide just to name a few?
Those cards most likely aren't available in draft packs, so they didn't include them
i think they arent in the draft format, so pointless to talk about them. Welcome to modern MTG, where nobody knows whats in what pack anymore xD
Great stuff. Thanks for all you guys do!
OMG the sign-off...LMAO
I think y'all forgot that Gloin can also be triggered by artifact spells, not just Legendaries. I think he could be better than ya think.
I thought some cards were missed but they are apparently not in the limited set. Please disregard but I will leave the comment for engagement.
correct, those are not in the limited set.
@@fpejanovic Thank you for letting me know. I will fix my comment.
what i love about the one ring is that its 100% voluntary to start the burden counters. If you just play it and never use it its harmless, very cool flavor
The One RIng in the books and even the movies is actively draining Frodo the entire time. I don't like the idea of it being "harmless."
@@ScottofOaklandit draws you too though, you can choose to not do anything with it put you sure are tempted to
I love that the best way to deal with the burden of the world's most powerful magical artefact is to scarf down croissants and bacon as fast as you can
@@ScottofOaklandWell frodo is actively wearing it though. The flavor of not using the card is like simply owning it but having it locked away in your shelf for 40 years. Flavor still on point with the card design
@@benfrenchman tbf brewers are already showing the best way to mitigate the eldritch influence of this artifact forged by a demigod to subjugate every living being is to just twiddle it 20 times and win
Will there be a directors cut, where the entire set review is done while hiking for authenticity?
The dog peeing is about marking ownership. She is claiming the bed as hers.
Frodo can be activated instant speed for 5 mana, If you already have the tempts thats an easy gg. I like It.
Shelob makes tokens that keep their ETBs and activated abilities so if they chump with the wrong creature you can absolutely punish them for it. (Me who chumped with a wose pathfinder during pre-release)
it also keeps static abilities and triggered abilities, like the 2/3 reach that gives a creature +1/+0 on your combat.
Seems like a massive miss to not mention display of power is an instant and is able to counter your opponents spells, particularly counter spells
The White Tree is a house, completely destroyed me in prerelease.
"Saruman of Many Colors" references my favorite scene from the book, and I was happy to see a card made of it. It's one PJ cut from the movies, like he did for most of Saruman's scenes, where Saruman rants to Gandalf, the gist of the speech being that he had made a ring of his own and no longer saw himself as the leader of the White Council, but as having dominion over all things, all "colors" as white can be fractured into a prisim. It makes me sad that WotC both missed the opportunity to make it a WUBRG and made the card offputtingly confusing.
That scene is real fun though in the extended cut versions of those films.
Flavor in this set is...... inconsistent.
Saruman at that point in his story could not be less Green; he's turned against the natural order in a massive way, forsaken wisdom (green) for artifice (blue) and destroying the Entwood. Arguably he could be red (impulsive) but he's also kinda heartless and cruel, and he doesn't do anything particularly red.
Drafting two Gandalf and a Saruman, followed by two Flame of Arnor is the most disgusting thing I've ever done in a game. You can feel your opponents soul leave their body.
12:56 Too harsh on Display on Power IMO. You can copy other player's spells, so there's that too. In that sense, it can also function as a counter to the counter of an opponent. Not really an F, not an A either ofc. C- -ish maybe? Bordering on D+?
You guys missed Gandalf the White Rider.
That one isn't in the draft environment.
Equip Sting in the kraken ans you could go off?...
With Fall of Gil-galad could you chapter 3 your 1/1 and fight with your own creature?
You can. It's pretty versatile - you can use it on your big creature to beat down an opponent's creature, or on a mid creature to trade + 2 cards, or if that's not available just (effectively) sacrifice some little dork/token/whatever to draw 2. If your opponent has literally nothing on the board, sure - you can fight your own thing and lose for two cards. Not ideal but gets cards.
Very excited to try out these cards! 😊
Hell yeah!
I loved the prerelease of this set. Super synergistic and feels good. Definitely might be biased because of the flavor/LotR theme but I'll be drafting this a ton!
One of the worst prereleases of all time. I guess over 80% of matches going so long they end in a draw is a blast to you, but dont encourage more of this food stuff please lol
Btw, this is absolutely a 3-color set. Lots of ways to help with fixing, even if it’s not land-based fixing. The legendaries are strong enough that I almost always end up splashing into a 3rd color
I concur. 1 mana land cyclers make splashing incredibly easy. You have to pick them a little earlier in draft to guarantee a safe splash, but it is well worth being able to play a half off color uncommon or rare. Also wizards rockets is the GOAT
turn 2 easterling vanguard turn 3 horn of gondor activate 4 then had mirkwood bats on 5 so every human pinged for one. game ended quickly
oh boy I feel this one is gonna be a ride
There's some real sauce in this pile.
Oh wait does Shagrat let you use your opponent's equipment too?
it does. The flavor is that he steals Frodo's stuff after Frodo is incapacitated by Shelob.
@@Mordalon random in mtg but nice! ty
@@bblivid of note, since they were very dismissive of it and didn't take time to go into it, he doesn't actually make you the controller of the equipment, he just attaches it to himself, so when your opponent's turn comes around they can still activate the Equip ability and put it back on their creature. Also, since the controller of the equipment doesn't change, the effects of that equipment matter. If you control Shagrat and steal the opponent's Glamdring and then hit them, Glamdring's triggered ability will let the opponent cast a spell, since the "you" on Glamdring refers to the controller of the sword, not Shagrat.
@@Mordalon It does still get indestructible when it steals mythril or other power/toughness buffs though which is pretty good for a turn. Especially if it was already equipped to an opponent's creature.
Every treasure you use to pay for Balrog pays 2 mana. With a few treasure makers in rakdos...
You can copy your opponents spells with display of power
Did they give Goldberry a grade?
LSV snuck in a B+ around 1:08:49
@@eeglesthank you
T for thicc
🔥
I like how they asked if there was a combo with Sting and we literally just saw the Watcher in the Water. Sure it's magical Christmas land, but he asked if there were any.
The only good thing about Sauruman of Many Colors is the editing break in the middle of trying to explain what the heck it does. That part I found highly engaging!
A+ on LSV's mini rant @2:20:39. Simpler card design is fine. I hate (both on Arena or at the LGS) having to re-read a paragraph with multiple clauses to understand one game piece.
im more sick of the complaining than having to read the card / see it in play a few times before i understand what it does fully
Hi, I'm a Yu-Gi-Oh player
It's really not that bad. They blame the whole card when only one part of the text is a big ambiguous. Also, there is a difference between verbosity and complexity. Cards can be wordy but play simply, while some can be easy to read but have unintuitive gameplay interactions.
it is very funny that boromir just hard counters battle flips from last set and that ability is irrelevant in this set
How I wish it was irrelevant completely, day one and I already had multiple triggers from my Saruman of many colors countered
Not trying to be rude, but does LSV have Parkinson's? Please get checked before it's too advanced.
As a long time casual MtG player in paper (pre any digital magic) and a long time Tolkien (read LOTR once a year). Although an Arena player from beta I lost the passion for MtG. The power creep and ‘grind’ left me drained. I parked playing and also following decent content providers. Flavour wise AFR in recent years brought me back (AD&D fuelled by a love of Tolkien’s work the heart & soul of that. In reality I was spending too much time on MtG. We all know it can be a real time thief. So playing and watching content took a back seat. With LOTR being such an iconic release I wanted to find good content creators I knew and respected create a decent and measured set review. Let me say your two episodes covering the set are by some margin the best I have found. The banter and discussion between the two of you and of course the reasoning and insights for rating were well discussed. Thanks for rekindling the passion again for MtG. For the first time since AFR I am investing (buying) this set in paper (to play of course). I plan to also follow and support your content. There are a lot of prolific and professional MTG content creators of course but yours is highly enjoyable. 🦑 🐉 SquiderDragon
Uhhhh, good luck.
just play edh with friends, no grind, no powercreep
2:19:01 just trying to understand this card at first glance almost gave me an headache... smh.. seriously?
I'm out of this set. The artwork is a huge miss and thematically is terrible, which is a huge part of the lore. They've made LOTR fit MTG instead of what should've been the other way round.
It's supposed to be a functional set, forcing too much flavor over function would just make it nice to look at but terrible to actually play with. R&D learned this lesson a long time ago.
care to elaborate which artwork you dont like? :)
@@ich3730 Aragorn because of course I'm a huge racist who really, really hates all black people which can't exist in Tolkien, except for the ones that already exist in Tolkien, they're alright I suppose. I shake my head every fucking time, it's pathetic. And that bloody sword of his that comes straight from some half arsed computer game RPG.
I completely agree with Luis's take on Saruman of Many Colors. The card is completely illegible. The card looks insanely over-designed. The templating is terrible and very hard to follow. The cognitive load of the game is already high enough with modern design. Making cards compelling enough to play doesn't have to come at the detriment of legibility.
*Laughs in Yu-Gi-Oh*
For an MTG card, it's a mess. But comparatively it's a breeze
it's not illegible. The only part that makes it hard is "this spell" comes a bit too long after the spell it is referring to.
Dude, the ads are OUT OF CONTROL for this video. Seriously they're like every 3 minutes. Makes these videos damn near unwatchable to be interrupted my a commercial over and over and over.
Normally, I think the overcomplicated textbox complaints of LSV are a bit much, but Saruman of Many Colors is just on another level of bad text box.
It's a mythic. I get the effect it's going for, the only weird part is the "this spell" and what it refers to is separated enough that it is hard to track.
Be nice if LSV could put half the energy he used on being mad about Saruman into being sponsored and shrilling crypto hucksters
The sad feeling when a orc is the best Archer so far better then Legolas xD
Well Legolas beats that orc in a 1 on 1. Also, it's multiple orcs, not just a single one.
@@Mordalon but isnt legolas more about beating orcs 1 v 100? xD
@@ich3730 As I said, the card is called "orcish bowmasters" plural. Legolas the individual beats a group of orchish bowmasters. The rare Legolas is tough enough to survive and beat the bowmasters, the only reason they bowmasters are "better' is because their ability is easier to utilize, while Legolas need to be built around more. So basically there are two different metrics being measured here. It's just like when a big splashy faction leader is mechanically powerful, but doesn't see competitive play compared to a rare nameless creature that is less splashy but competitively costed.
There's friggin novels on a lot of cards. "Core Set vibes"? Less complex? I'm not sure what you are talking about.
This is the Rare and Mythic review. The commons and uncommons aren't that verbose. Also, there's a difference between being wordy and playing complexity, you can have one and not the other.
@@Mordalon thanks for putting me in my place and needlessly making me feel bad, I guess.
@@ScottofOakland I was literally just stating that they aren't that bad and that there's more than one type of complexity. It's not my fault you got personally offended by someone disagreeing with you.
I love the sexy nymph flavor. Taking and spreading counters like STD's 😅